OpIv37's Post Game Review

[OpIv37]

The stage was set for another epic Buffalo disappointment. So much buzz about Pegula, Kelly being healthy, and the unexpected victory in Chicago last week. And the team set up the inevitable disappointment further by playing well in the first half. We all know the Bills have to get our hopes up so the fall is even harder Sure enough, Miami made better halftime adjustments and came out ready to play in the third quarter. Here comes the collapse....

But then something strange happened. As it turned out, the disappointment WASN'T inevitable. The Bills didn't dominate Miami like they did in the first half, but they made more big plays and fewer mistakes than Miami did and still won the game easily.

Is this the turning point? Did we start the Pegula era, where the team will be defined by rallying and justifying our hopes instead of constantly letting us down? Well, let's not get carried away. But it couldn't have started any better than it did.

Random thoughts:

-The one glaring negative was the red zone offense. Officially it was 1 for 7 on touchdowns, but realistically it was more like 1 for 5 since the last two trips were more about killing clock than truly trying to score. It simply has to improve if this team is going to keep winning.

- in the rare instances where the Dolphins moved the ball, it seemed like it was always right in front of Robey. Not one of his better games.

- Sentrell Henderson was impressive against awake.

- Sammy Watkins- enough said.

-EJ had his moments and his misses. He's doing a good job avoiding big mistakes but also still has accuracy and consistency problems. Missing Watkins in the end zone was terrible.

-late in the first half, I remember thinking "it's been a long time since Spiller has made a big play." Then he made two, which basically saved the game.

-on a related note, excellent performance by S/T.

- the defensive line was dominant.

- I don't understand Marrone's logic on the 4th and 4 late in the first half. He should have left the O out there, tried to draw them offsides, then called timeout if they didn't bite, or intentionally taken the delay of game for extra punting room if they didn't bite. Calling timeout to talk about what to do came off as unprepared.

- overall I thought the coaching was good. The play calling wasn't predictable, and they got the ball into the hands of the weapons (Spiller and Watkins). Also, I'm always critical when the coaches misuse a challenge, so to be fair, I should point out that challenging the Chandler reception was a great use of a challenge.

- 2-0. Didn't see this coming. We've had false positives at this point in the season before, so I'm not sold on the team yet. But I'm in the "cautiously optimistic" category.

[Night Train]

The stage was set for another epic Buffalo disappointment.

I stopped reading right there.

[OpIv37]

I stopped reading right there.

Then you missed out.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Actually your post has some very good points OpV.

[DesertFox24]

Everyone says he missed Watkins but from the end zone view it looked like he was trying to lead Watkins away from corner and Watkins did not anticipate that and did not bend his route. All in all this is probably something they will work as it looked like they were just not on same page that play.

The one nice thing I can say is we are winnif games and we are not playing as well as we could be on off and def. That is a statement usually reserved for good teams. Too early for that especially after the Jauron 5-1 debacle but we should be proud and optimistic at the very least

[ParanoidAndroid]

Your opening is so you. Shell-shocked Bills fans.... I bet you were still nervous with a 16-point lead. But, good points, Op.

[OpIv37]

One thing I forgot: penalties. I think the numbers were down this week, but the only reason the Dolphins got a TD was because there were 3 on that drive alone. Definitely room for improvement there.

[Beebe]

NICE!

[ServoBillieves]

Well put Op. Sadly, I WAS one of those fans that even with the 16 point lead I was still in shock. "They can't blow this, I know that they cannot possibly blow this..." But I kept watching nervously.

As stated, we've seen this before... but I am cautiously optimistic and extremely happy with the outcome and team play the past 2 games.

[X-Era]

If I had a complaint it would bet he offensive pass play calls. I feel like they aren't using Sammy to the best of his ability yet. They should throw more quick slants and short and intermediate routes to him. He's best in space after the catch. I feel like we could eat up teams if we can get the ball to him quickly.

[RedEyE]

Well put!

[Novacane]

Nice write up. Pretty much agree with all of it except I'm not sure the Sammy missed TD was on EJ. Not saying it wasn't but it just as well could of been the wrong route run.

Red zone offense has to get better. I think it's a mix of poor execution and bad play calling. I'm getting tired of the read option RB right up the middle. Don't they have any other running plays?

[psubills62]

One thing I forgot: penalties. I think the numbers were down this week, but the only reason the Dolphins got a TD was because there were 3 on that drive alone. Definitely room for improvement there.
Agreed, but that just makes it seem like even more of a blowout. Can you imagine if Buffalo scored 10 points and needed 3 penalties on the lone TD drive that whole game? Flukey more than anything.

Solid writeup. The offense isn't dominant, but it's moving the ball better than I would have expected, especially based on preseason. Kind of reminds me of a year or two ago, when the Jets' first team offense failed to score a TD in preseason, then came out and laid 35+ on us or something ridiculous. Almost that level of surprise for me. Like the way this defense plays.

Hoping this isn't like a Dick Jauron 4-0. The difference right now is that we beat a division opponent.

I'm glad we get San Diego at home. Don't west coast teams typically have trouble playing on the east coast?

[Oaf]

Dude, when we went up 9-0, nearly 12-0, I was being eaten alive that our "good drives" were being cashed out.

I figured Miami wipes the lead in two second-half possessions and we have no answers on offense.

Then CJ Spiller happened. Probably the best timing for a ST play possible.

[JoeMama]

Pretty good read.

I was bracing myself for you to unload on how ****ty our 2-0 start was.

Instead you pulled the rug out from under me and upgraded your status from "This team makes me wish I was dead." to "I'm cautiously optimistic."

Tears of joy!

[Mace]

Pretty good read.

I was bracing myself for you to unload on how ****ty our 2-0 start was.

Instead you pulled the rug out from under me and upgraded your status from "This team makes me wish I was dead." to "I'm cautiously optimistic."

Tears of joy!

I felt better about cautiously optimistic too Mama, God help us all.

[MikeNC]

If I had a complaint it would bet he offensive pass play calls. I feel like they aren't using Sammy to the best of his ability yet. They should throw more quick slants and short and intermediate routes to him. He's best in space after the catch. I feel like we could eat up teams if we can get the ball to him quickly.

Agree, but it seems like every time Sammy gets up it looks like he's hurt.. maybe the staff is limiting him to a degree...

[DraftBoy]

If I had a complaint it would bet he offensive pass play calls. I feel like they aren't using Sammy to the best of his ability yet. They should throw more quick slants and short and intermediate routes to him. He's best in space after the catch. I feel like we could eat up teams if we can get the ball to him quickly.

I believe more than half his catches were on crossing routes in space. Not sure they could use him more effectively in all honesty. Thought he was perfectly utilized.

[Meathead]

how did he keep getting so wide open dang

[ghz in pittsburgh]

how did he keep getting so wide open dang
O-Line holds up. Given time, Watkins are going to get "college open", not the kind of open like AJ Green/C Johnson.

Notice no hot read, tight coverage passes from EJ to Mr. Watkins. He and EJ still have a lot of rapport to build, i.e. the missed TD passes in the middle yesterday, Watkins' read and EJ's read of the safety caused the incompletion.

[justasportsfan]

- 2-0. Didn't see this coming. We've had false positives at this point in the season before, so I'm not sold on the team yet. But I'm in the "cautiously optimistic" category.

Nothing magically turns good right after the preseason. :whistle:

[justasportsfan]

BTW, Dick Jauron was in the house today.

Right after the bills recover a punt, the bills decide to "play not to lose" . Carpenter ,misses the FG and the fins are still in it. Until we learn to step on our opponents throats, this team isn't going far even if we make playoffs.

[djjimkelly]

op with a serious hint of optimism let me look outside is the sky falling ? lol

[gebobs]

One thing I forgot: penalties. I think the numbers were down this week, but the only reason the Dolphins got a TD was because there were 3 on that drive alone. Definitely room for improvement there.

Not to mention the non-call on fourth down when the Dollies RT moved early.

[Historian]

I want to recognize a unit that has played well so far:

The defensive backs.

Their tackling has been superb, and they are knocking passes down as opposed to trying to be INT glory hounds.

They've played some fine receivers too....Marshall, Wallace, et al.

We're getting big dividends from Corey Graham.

This, in a year where more flags are being thrown against DB than in the history of the game.

I would say that even though it's only been two weeks, this has been a bright spot on the team, especially considering last year the D line would stop their run on 1st and 2nd, then we would give up a 3rd and long.

[casdhf]

Searcy has been the balls in run support.

[Jry44]

One thing I forgot: penalties. I think the numbers were down this week, but the only reason the Dolphins got a TD was because there were 3 on that drive alone. Definitely room for improvement there.

Let's not discount the clear missed false start on the Fins RT, Juwan Jameson on 4th and 3. Should have been 5 and a resulting punt. The slew of penalties came after that. And it still took a ridiculous catch by Mike Wallace to finish the drive.

[mysticsoto]

The stage was set for another epic Buffalo disappointment. So much buzz about Pegula, Kelly being healthy, and the unexpected victory in Chicago last week. And the team set up the inevitable disappointment further by playing well in the first half. We all know the Bills have to get our hopes up so the fall is even harder Sure enough, Miami made better halftime adjustments and came out ready to play in the third quarter. Here comes the collapse....

But then something strange happened. As it turned out, the disappointment WASN'T inevitable. The Bills didn't dominate Miami like they did in the first half, but they made more big plays and fewer mistakes than Miami did and still won the game easily.

Is this the turning point? Did we start the Pegula era, where the team will be defined by rallying and justifying our hopes instead of constantly letting us down? Well, let's not get carried away. But it couldn't have started any better than it did.

Random thoughts:

-The one glaring negative was the red zone offense. Officially it was 1 for 7 on touchdowns, but realistically it was more like 1 for 5 since the last two trips were more about killing clock than truly trying to score. It simply has to improve if this team is going to keep winning.

- in the rare instances where the Dolphins moved the ball, it seemed like it was always right in front of Robey. Not one of his better games.

- Sentrell Henderson was impressive against awake.

- Sammy Watkins- enough said.

-EJ had his moments and his misses. He's doing a good job avoiding big mistakes but also still has accuracy and consistency problems. Missing Watkins in the end zone was terrible.

-late in the first half, I remember thinking "it's been a long time since Spiller has made a big play." Then he made two, which basically saved the game.

-on a related note, excellent performance by S/T.

- the defensive line was dominant.

- I don't understand Marrone's logic on the 4th and 4 late in the first half. He should have left the O out there, tried to draw them offsides, then called timeout if they didn't bite, or intentionally taken the delay of game for extra punting room if they didn't bite. Calling timeout to talk about what to do came off as unprepared.

- overall I thought the coaching was good. The play calling wasn't predictable, and they got the ball into the hands of the weapons (Spiller and Watkins). Also, I'm always critical when the coaches misuse a challenge, so to be fair, I should point out that challenging the Chandler reception was a great use of a challenge.

- 2-0. Didn't see this coming. We've had false positives at this point in the season before, so I'm not sold on the team yet. But I'm in the "cautiously optimistic" category.

I think Op's account was hacked...who is this guy???

[Mahdi]

If I had a complaint it would bet he offensive pass play calls. I feel like they aren't using Sammy to the best of his ability yet. They should throw more quick slants and short and intermediate routes to him. He's best in space after the catch. I feel like we could eat up teams if we can get the ball to him quickly.

With his rib injury I'm surprised they tried even a few slants. Best way to get him hit in the upper body.

[FlyingDutchman]

Not to mention the non-call on fourth down when the Dollies RT moved early.

I felt like he moved early on like 5 plays and it was never called

[OpIv37]

Not to mention the non-call on fourth down when the Dollies RT moved early.

I think the officiating was bad overall . In the first half, we got some breaks on some non-calls. In the second half, the non-calls mostly went their way. That one was by far the most egregious though.

[Fletch]

I want to recognize a unit that has played well so far:

The defensive backs.

Their tackling has been superb, and they are knocking passes down as opposed to trying to be INT glory hounds.

They've played some fine receivers too....Marshall, Wallace, et al.

We're getting big dividends from Corey Graham.

This, in a year where more flags are being thrown against DB than in the history of the game.

I would say that even though it's only been two weeks, this has been a bright spot on the team, especially considering last year the D line would stop their run on 1st and 2nd, then we would give up a 3rd and long.

Agree.

It's weird though, Gilmore's not playing better than the others though.

[justasportsfan]

It almost seemed like the game plan going into this game was get the ball to both Spiller and Watkins. Niether R. Woods and FJ nos.were called.

Next game, maybe we can open 7-11 ? That stores been closed.

[FlyingDutchman]

Speaking of Woods, he had one hell of a hit on special teams. Which brings me to my next statement, what the hell is Robert Woods doing on special teams

[IlluminatusUIUC]

We can't complain about the refs in that game IMO, that Watkins TD was as close a call as you'll ever see. I thought it was a touchback.

[Fletch]

It almost seemed like the game plan going into this game was get the ball to both Spiller and Watkins. Niether R. Woods and FJ nos.were called.

Next game, maybe we can open 7-11 ? That stores been closed.

Look, when your QB is averaging less than 200 yards passing per game and a good number of those throws got to RBs and TEs there's not a whole lot left for 3 or 4 WRs.

[bdutton]

If I had a complaint it would bet he offensive pass play calls. I feel like they aren't using Sammy to the best of his ability yet. They should throw more quick slants and short and intermediate routes to him. He's best in space after the catch. I feel like we could eat up teams if we can get the ball to him quickly.

He was clearly hurting. But how can you complain with the obvious production and the effort on the TD play.


Agree, but it seems like every time Sammy gets up it looks like he's hurt.. maybe the staff is limiting him to a degree...

Those ribs were bothering him all day.


I believe more than half his catches were on crossing routes in space. Not sure they could use him more effectively in all honesty. Thought he was perfectly utilized.

Yes... most of his catches were over the middle.

Credit to EJ for putting the ball right on the numbers when Sammy did make catches. Going over the middle and having to reach for a ball with bruised ribs... exposing those ribs to further injury... would have been the worst.

[trapezeus]

BTW, Dick Jauron was in the house today.

Right after the bills recover a punt, the bills decide to "play not to lose" . Carpenter ,misses the FG and the fins are still in it. Until we learn to step on our opponents throats, this team isn't going far even if we make playoffs.


true, but do we see this team as a serious threat in playoffs? the team itself said it simply just wants to make the playoffs and that's what they are seemed to be built for.

i agree with your statement. i also felt like the play calls were to be extremely conservative and let the defense do its thing.

[gebobs]

I wonder how the game would have turned if the refs had seen the ball come out of Watkins hand before it hit the pylon. If I'm not mistaken, that would have resulted in a touchback and Miami ball at the 20 trailing 16-10.

I held my breath until the kicked the PAT.

[Jry44]

We can't complain about the refs in that game IMO, that Watkins TD was as close a call as you'll ever see. I thought it was a touchback.

Which is why it wasn't over turned. Scoring plays are automatically reviewed. If there isn't conclusive evidence, it can't be overturned. I don't see how this is "getting a call". I think the ball came out as soon as it hit the pile on. But I agree, it was as close of a call as you can get.

[gebobs]

Which is why it wasn't over turned. Scoring plays are automatically reviewed. If there isn't conclusive evidence, it can't be overturned. I don't see how this is "getting a call". I think the ball came out as soon as it hit the pile on. But I agree, it was as close of a call as you can get.

It's getting a call because it was called that way on the field. If an official was in the right position, it could have easily gone the other way and overturning it would have been just as difficult. It looked to me like Watkins was losing it before it hit the pylon.

[PromoTheRobot]

The stage was set for another epic Buffalo disappointment. So much buzz about Pegula, Kelly being healthy, and the unexpected victory in Chicago last week. And the team set up the inevitable disappointment further by playing well in the first half. We all know the Bills have to get our hopes up so the fall is even harder Sure enough, Miami made better halftime adjustments and came out ready to play in the third quarter. Here comes the collapse....

But then something strange happened. As it turned out, the disappointment WASN'T inevitable. The Bills didn't dominate Miami like they did in the first half, but they made more big plays and fewer mistakes than Miami did and still won the game easily.

Is this the turning point? Did we start the Pegula era, where the team will be defined by rallying and justifying our hopes instead of constantly letting us down? Well, let's not get carried away. But it couldn't have started any better than it did.

Random thoughts:

-The one glaring negative was the red zone offense. Officially it was 1 for 7 on touchdowns, but realistically it was more like 1 for 5 since the last two trips were more about killing clock than truly trying to score. It simply has to improve if this team is going to keep winning.

- in the rare instances where the Dolphins moved the ball, it seemed like it was always right in front of Robey. Not one of his better games.

- Sentrell Henderson was impressive against awake.

- Sammy Watkins- enough said.

-EJ had his moments and his misses. He's doing a good job avoiding big mistakes but also still has accuracy and consistency problems. Missing Watkins in the end zone was terrible.

-late in the first half, I remember thinking "it's been a long time since Spiller has made a big play." Then he made two, which basically saved the game.

-on a related note, excellent performance by S/T.

- the defensive line was dominant.

- I don't understand Marrone's logic on the 4th and 4 late in the first half. He should have left the O out there, tried to draw them offsides, then called timeout if they didn't bite, or intentionally taken the delay of game for extra punting room if they didn't bite. Calling timeout to talk about what to do came off as unprepared.

- overall I thought the coaching was good. The play calling wasn't predictable, and they got the ball into the hands of the weapons (Spiller and Watkins). Also, I'm always critical when the coaches misuse a challenge, so to be fair, I should point out that challenging the Chandler reception was a great use of a challenge.

- 2-0. Didn't see this coming. We've had false positives at this point in the season before, so I'm not sold on the team yet. But I'm in the "cautiously optimistic" category.

I'm sorry for the pain and suffering you're feeling right now. Buck up. They'll lose one eventually.

[Jry44]

It's getting a call because it was called that way on the field. If an official was in the right position, it could have easily gone the other way and overturning it would have been just as difficult. It looked to me like Watkins was losing it before it hit the pylon.

The official was standing right there. I still don't see how Miami got jobbed? I agree that it was a call that could have justly gone one way or the other because it was that damn close, but I don't think it was clearly out, and that there wasn't an official right on the goal line that made the call, because there was. There always is on "and goal" situations.

[gebobs]

The official was standing right there. I still don't see how Miami got jobbed? I agree that it was a call that could have justly gone one way or the other because it was that damn close, but I don't think it was clearly out, and that there wasn't an official right on the goal line that made the call, because there was. There always is on "and goal" situations.
No one said "Miami got jobbed." Illuminatus said it was "as close a call as you'll ever see." I said "it could have easily gone the other way."

[OpIv37]

No one said "Miami got jobbed." Illuminatus said it was "as close a call as you'll ever see." I said "it could have easily gone the other way."

It's a preferred outcome. I've read this idea on this board that the NFL doesn't rig games, but they have preferred outcomes, and the refs give close calls to try to set up the preferred outcome.

Usually, the Bills are on the losing end of that because they use us to try to set up high profile playoff matchups or appease a fickle fan base (* cough- NEW ENGLAND- *cough). But with all the negative publicity about Rice and Peterson, the NFL needed a feel-good story and this week, it was us.

[gebobs]

It's a preferred outcome. I've read this idea on this board that the NFL doesn't rig games, but they have preferred outcomes, and the refs give close calls to try to set up the preferred outcome.

Not buying it. These calls are made in an instant. The officials don't have time to think about whether the call is close enough to go a certain way on review and then call it in their preferred way.

I seem to recall a post about this where you said you weren't a "tin foil hat" guy. I kinda think you are.

[OpIv37]

Not buying it. These calls are made in an instant. The officials don't have time to think about whether the call is close enough to go a certain way on review and then call it in their preferred way.

I seem to recall a post about this where you said you weren't a "tin foil hat" guy. I kinda think you are.
You don't need a tin foil hat to believe that the NFL would rather see Pittsburgh face NE in the playoffs than, say, Buffalo vs Jacksonville. You don't need a tin foil hat to believe that the NFL is in desperate need of some positive publicity right now.

If there is a way to push things in the direction they want, they are going to do it.

And BTW really watch the refs. They often hesitate before making a call, especially before making a TD. I don't know what they are thinking but they do have time to think on many plays.

[justasportsfan]

You don't need a tin foil hat to believe that the NFL would rather see Pittsburgh face NE in the playoffs than, say, Buffalo vs Jacksonville. You don't need a tin foil hat to believe that the NFL is in desperate need of some positive publicity right now.

If there is a way to push things in the direction they want, they are going to do it.

And BTW really watch the refs. They often hesitate before making a call, especially before making a TD. I don't know what they are thinking but they do have time to think on many plays.


homer

[gebobs]

You don't need a tin foil hat to believe that the NFL would rather see Pittsburgh face NE in the playoffs than, say, Buffalo vs Jacksonville.
You do if you think they are going to rig the game to ensure that.


You don't need a tin foil hat to believe that the NFL is in desperate need of some positive publicity right now.
How is putting their brand's credibility at risk by rigging the results going to help?


If there is a way to push things in the direction they want, they are going to do it.
Still not buying it. The owners are the NFL. Do you think owners like Pegula, having invested hundreds of millions of dollars, are going to let their league gin up a few teams at their expense?


And BTW really watch the refs. They often hesitate before making a call, especially before making a TD. I don't know what they are thinking but they do have time to think on many plays.
They hesitate maybe a fraction of a second. And all touchdowns are reviewed. How many touchdowns can you recall that were called wrong on the field, after a suspiciously pregnant pause by the official? And how many of those were not reversed after review? Give me a dozen good examples and I'll reconsider your theory.

[OpIv37]

It's not "rigging." It's promoting a desired outcome. Rigging would be making up phantom penalties against one team but not the other, or giving a team a first down when they were clearly short. I'm talking about a handful of plays that could go either way, and giving them to the team that will make the league the most money by winning.

And obviously it wouldn't work every time. When the Pats come in and whoop us 42-10, those handful of calls that could go either way aren't going to be the difference in the game. But if it's a one score game, a call like that CAN make the difference. Think of Watkins' TD. If they rule that a touchback, it's 16-10 and Miami's ball. One TD and they are in the lead.

In the end it's all about money. Is promoting a desired outcome going to produce enough money to be with the risk of getting caught, and do they have plausible deniability to save the brand if they do get caught? I don't know but that's what will drive the NFL's action on this.

[Jry44]

No one said "Miami got jobbed." Illuminatus said it was "as close a call as you'll ever see." I said "it could have easily gone the other way."

Isn't getting jobbed and getting the call wrong against the other team the same thing?

[gebobs]

It's not "rigging." It's promoting a desired outcome. Rigging would be making up phantom penalties against one team but not the other, or giving a team a first down when they were clearly short. I'm talking about a handful of plays that could go either way, and giving them to the team that will make the league the most money by winning.
Rigging, promoting, whatever. I say it's not possible. There are several cameras recording each play from every angle.

Officials may be able to influence outcomes with phantom call causing drives to stall. Even that is highly unlikely. There would have to be a code of omerta unlike what even the La Cosa Nostra has had.


Is promoting a desired outcome going to produce enough money to be with the risk of getting caught, and do they have plausible deniability to save the brand if they do get caught? I don't know but that's what will drive the NFL's action on this.
The risk of getting caught is everything. Once that cat's out of the bag, their credibility is gone.

And once again, guys like Pegula ARE the NFL. Do you think he, Haslam or Adams are going to allow their teams to be hamstrung for a few million bucks? And their buy-in to the conspiracy has to be monolithic along with that of all the officials. One dissident and it all comes apart.

[jimmifli]

Which is why it wasn't over turned. Scoring plays are automatically reviewed. If there isn't conclusive evidence, it can't be overturned. I don't see how this is "getting a call". I think the ball came out as soon as it hit the pile on. But I agree, it was as close of a call as you can get.

it wasn't reviewed. The NFL said it was one of two scoring plays that weren't reviewed this week (for the usually reason: the video wasn't available to us).

Had it been up for review we'd have watched it over and over while the "announcers" filled time. A play like that would likely take 5 minutes.

[gebobs]

Isn't getting jobbed and getting the call wrong against the other team the same thing?

Did they get it wrong?

[gebobs]

The NFL said it was one of two scoring plays that weren't reviewed this week (for the usually reason: the video wasn't available to us).

Interesting. Where did you hear that? How did they not have video? CBS did.

[jimmifli]

Interesting. Where did you hear that? How did they not have video? CBS did.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/09/14/percy-harvin-sammy-watkins-controversial-touchdowns

It's been updated now, it just says the NFL admitted it neglected to review the Harvin TD. Originally, the article said both but didn't provide a quote, although the article still implies it didn't go to NY for review. So....

[Dujek]

Wait, Op is being cautiously optimistic? We must be good!

[gebobs]

http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/09/14/percy-harvin-sammy-watkins-controversial-touchdowns

It's been updated now, it just says the NFL admitted it neglected to review the Harvin TD. Originally, the article said both but didn't provide a quote, although the article still implies it didn't go to NY for review. So....

I can't vouch for what the article originally said, but as for Watkins TD, it doesn't say it wasn't reviewed, only that the author thought the review should have taken longer though he admits none of the replays were enough to overturn.

And one can interpret the league's statement about Harvin's TD the same way. "Had the game been stopped for a replay review" can be interpreted as either their was no review or that there was a only a cursory review that did not stop the game. I'm inclined to believe the latter and they blew it. There has been emphasis on speeding up the replay process so as not to stilt the game ever since replay was introduced.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

It's not "rigging." It's promoting a desired outcome. Rigging would be making up phantom penalties against one team but not the other, or giving a team a first down when they were clearly short. I'm talking about a handful of plays that could go either way, and giving them to the team that will make the league the most money by winning.

And obviously it wouldn't work every time. When the Pats come in and whoop us 42-10, those handful of calls that could go either way aren't going to be the difference in the game. But if it's a one score game, a call like that CAN make the difference. Think of Watkins' TD. If they rule that a touchback, it's 16-10 and Miami's ball. One TD and they are in the lead.

In the end it's all about money. Is promoting a desired outcome going to produce enough money to be with the risk of getting caught, and do they have plausible deniability to save the brand if they do get caught? I don't know but that's what will drive the NFL's action on this.

The NFL makes money hand over fist regardless of who's winning. This isn't hockey where the difference between the Rangers and the Hurricanes in the final means millions of viewers. (Nor for that matter is this College Football, where certain teams get overt preference Mr. Notre Dame fan)

The NFL has a lot more to lose by favoritism than it has to gain.

[DraftBoy]

The NFL makes money hand over fist regardless of who's winning. This isn't hockey where the difference between the Rangers and the Hurricanes in the final means millions of viewers. (Nor for that matter is this College Football, where certain teams get overt preference Mr. Notre Dame fan)

The NFL has a lot more to lose by favoritism than it has to gain.

Really a modern day argument where ND gets preference? I get the point from 20 or so years ago but ND had been so bad for so long that argument is no longer valid.

On the topic of the Watkins TD, I was shocked they didn't review it because it didn't look to me like he regained full possession, but I'll take it.

[Fletch]

I'm sorry for the pain and suffering you're feeling right now. Buck up. They'll lose one eventually.


Wait, Op is being cautiously optimistic? We must be good!


Nothing like some regular flaming.

[Fletch]

Really a modern day argument where ND gets preference? I get the point from 20 or so years ago but ND had been so bad for so long that argument is no longer valid.

On the topic of the Watkins TD, I was shocked they didn't review it because it didn't look to me like he regained full possession, but I'll take it.

I thought they review all TDs now?

[DraftBoy]

I thought they review all TDs now?

They are supposed to. NFL admitted two TD's didn't get reviewed one was the Watkins TD the other was Harvin.

[Fletch]

So they broke their own rules?

I don't get how they arbitrarily enforce things like that. Worked out for us, but could easily have been against us too.

[gebobs]

They are supposed to. NFL admitted two TD's didn't get reviewed one was the Watkins TD the other was Harvin.

As far as I know, the NFL never said they didn't review Watkins call. Chris Burke from SI criticized the NFL for not reviewing it more closely (http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/09/14/percy-harvin-sammy-watkins-controversial-touchdowns). Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't either and was relieved when they snapped for the PAT. Even Burke concedes there may not have been enough to overturn. In my opinion, had the call been made the other way initially, it would have stood as well. It looked to me like Watkins started to bobble the ball and while trying to hold on made a swipe for the pylon hoping he would maintain possession well enough for the score to stand. It was hard to tell, but it sure looked like he lost possession.

Even with Harvins TD, the NFL's statement is ambiguous.


Had the game been stopped for a replay review, the touchdown would have been reversed because Harvin stepped out of bounds at the San Diego 21-yard line.

As I mentioned elsewhere, one can take this two ways:
* They did not review the play which would be an egregious omission of protocol.
* They reviewed it but did not stop play to review it closer.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Really a modern day argument where ND gets preference? I get the point from 20 or so years ago but ND had been so bad for so long that argument is no longer valid.

The Notre Dame rule and the 2007 Sugar Bowl come to mind.

[stuckincincy]

Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't either and was relieved when they snapped for the PAT.


It's always a head-shaker when you watch clubs lollygag about after a td instead of smartly stepping up and kicking the point after.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

It's always a head-shaker when you watch clubs lollygag about after a td instead of smartly stepping up and kicking the point after.

They can't just run up and kick the pat, the ref has to give the ready signal.

[stuckincincy]

They can't just run up and kick the pat, the ref has to give the ready signal.

Then I'm curious. For years - decades, I've seen teams hurry up and kick a PAT because they felt that the td was dubious. Smart. A ref of course gave the ready signal.

I've seen teams fart around and have their td negated.

I'm aware of the recent "review every scoring play" rule. It didn't seem to have happened in the Watkins' td instance.

I personally dislike reviews...let 'em play, let the refs call'em as they see 'em.

[OpIv37]

Nothing like some regular flaming.

Dujek is just having some craic at my expense, the wanker.

PTR on the other hand.... Well let's jus say he can't wait for me to finally be wrong.

[DraftBoy]

The Notre Dame rule and the 2007 Sugar Bowl come to mind.

So your problem is actually a NCAA one and has nothing to do with ND.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

So your problem is actually a NCAA one and has nothing to do with ND.

... Duh? My point was that they received overt favoritism. It's primarily an NCAA issue, but I'm not sure how you can say that has "Nothing" to do with ND.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Then I'm curious. For years - decades, I've seen teams hurry up and kick a PAT because they felt that the td was dubious. Smart. A ref of course gave the ready signal.

I've seen teams fart around and have their td negated.

I'm aware of the recent "review every scoring play" rule. It didn't seem to have happened in the Watkins' td instance.

I personally dislike reviews...let 'em play, let the refs call'em as they see 'em.

You have to snap before the booth/coach calls for the challenge. On scoring plays, it's an automatic review so there's nothing to beat. You have to wait for the booth to clear the td to run the PAT.

[trapezeus]

Which is why it wasn't over turned. Scoring plays are automatically reviewed. If there isn't conclusive evidence, it can't be overturned. I don't see how this is "getting a call". I think the ball came out as soon as it hit the pile on. But I agree, it was as close of a call as you can get.

it doesn't even have to be conclusive on scoring plays...see seattle and harvin stepping out of bounds clear as day.

if they called it a fumble in the game, there wasn't enough to reverse it that he had it. In real time, it looked like he reached for it and the ground caused the ball to come loose. so i think the on field decision at the time was correct.

but it isn't like we won the game on bad calls. we got our share of ridiculous calls and in the end you can say that they balanced out. 4th and 3 false start. another game where a holding call flag was just picked up.

[gebobs]

I personally dislike reviews...let 'em play, let the refs call'em as they see 'em.
That's been my position, but that will just make the heads spin for the conspiracyniks. So long as they can keep reviews quick, and they have gotten better, it's nice to have blatant calls reversed. The Harvin touchdown was ridiculous and should have been overturned. The Watkins touchdown may not have been called correctly on the field, but we can't say the review was wrong.

[stuckincincy]

You have to snap before the booth/coach calls for the challenge. On scoring plays, it's an automatic review so there's nothing to beat. You have to wait for the booth to clear the td to run the PAT. So, that's the new rule.

It's sad...takes away from the smart clubs and hands the dumb ones a crutch. Ugh.

It's only a matter of time before teams are awarded 30 offensive snaps per half, in the interest of fairness. :flush:

[OpIv37]

The NFL makes money hand over fist regardless of who's winning. This isn't hockey where the difference between the Rangers and the Hurricanes in the final means millions of viewers. (Nor for that matter is this College Football, where certain teams get overt preference Mr. Notre Dame fan)

The NFL has a lot more to lose by favoritism than it has to gain.

The NFL has shown that no amount of money is enough for them. And while they do make money no matter who plays, they also make more money when certain teams play. Consider three teams:

Buffalo: the fans show up win or lose and the city has limited resources.

New England: the city has a lot more resources than Buffalo and the "fans" will bail at the first .500 season, especially if the Sox are in the playoffs

Jacksonville: a city with limited resources and no fans no matter how the team does.

The league has a vested interest in NE winning and doesn't gain anything by Buffalo or Jacksonville winning.

Ad as far as Notre Dame getting preferences, please. That argument is so outdated. It was true at one point, but mainly because of the national exposure, and with cable/satellite TV, NCAA game plan and the Internet, that advantage is long gone.

[gebobs]

The league has a vested interest in NE winning and doesn't gain anything by Buffalo or Jacksonville winning.

First of all, the NFL doesn't have to do anything for the Patriots to succeed. Not recently anyway. They do that fine by themselves and with the putrid competition within the division.

Second, when the Patriots eventually do succumb to the withers of time when Brady retires and Belichick announces the same within minutes, it would take nothing less than blatant, obvious favoritism, orchestrated at the highest levels and administered throughout the officiating corps, to buoy the team to the division title when it doesn't have the talent.

No, it's not reasonable to think that such a thing could be carried out. Not with replays at myriad angles. Not with 31 other teams with 31 other team's owners, management, commentators, reporters and fans looking on.

But let's flesh that out. Say the NFL estimates that the Patriots stand to lose 20,000 fans per game when the team tanks. Ten home games (w/ preseason) at an average of $122 per ticket comes to a net loss of $25 million dollars. Sure that sounds like a lot of money to most folks, Tom Brady even, but it's a drop in the bucket for the NFL. Broadcast rights alone come to $6 billion. Estimates of total revenue are upwards of $10 billion.

Now, let me ask you, is it reasonable that the NFL would carry out such an elaborate scheme to buoy a few teams, risking their entire credibility, to boost their income by a measly 1/4 percent. Not even likely.

But Pegula's a smart guy. He gets to cash in on that huge pile of cash seeping out of Foxboro every year. Is he going to even consider such a thing to add what amounts to about a half million dollars in revenue every year that comes at the expense of his team's success. Not a chance in hell. Heck, Pegula would probably pay 100 times that if it assured achieving success.

I know it's usually fruitless to convince conspiracy thinkers otherwise. As far as conspiracy theories go, it's harmless. I know it's hard to believe that Wilson could have been such a great guy for the league on the one hand and such a bumbling fool managing his own team. But it's a fact. The record speaks for itself.

And the Patriots were as bad if not worse for their entire existence up until the day Brady took over. I'm sure Patriots fans were thinking the same thing when we owned them for a decade under Kelly. Before Kelly, we were drawing 40,000 strong crowds. But the NFL came in and made it so a struggling franchise could finally win and bring parity to the league. It had nothing at all to do with the Bills having far superior talent and the Patsies being patsies.

[OpIv37]

First of all, I never once said anything about the NFL bolstering the Patriots to win the div when they don't have the talent. That would be rigging games and I said from the onset that the league doesn't do that. Like I said before, sometimes the talent difference is too great for the refs to affect the outcome.

Second, the money doesn't just come from gate revenue. It comes from concessions, merch and TV. Boston is a top 10 market in the country. If they stop watching the TV contract becomes less valuable.

[gebobs]

First of all, I never once said anything about the NFL bolstering the Patriots to win the div when they don't have the talent. That would be rigging games and I said from the onset that the league doesn't do that. Like I said before, sometimes the talent difference is too great for the refs to affect the outcome.
And how many times is it not? And of those times, how often are the refs a factor? And of those, how often do you suppose it was done deliberately to help a team as dictated by the NFL plutocracy. In the end, there is little that the refs can do to help this conspiracy even get off the ground.


Second, the money doesn't just come from gate revenue. It comes from concessions, merch and TV. Boston is a top 10 market in the country. If they stop watching the TV contract becomes less valuable.
I mentioned broadcast revenue. $6 billion shared equally and it wouldn't drop a penny if Boston suddenly lost interest in football and getting drunk on Sundays. Television revenue goes up and up and there is no sign of it even leveling off. Their goal is $25 billion.

As for concessions and merch...really? Revenue is hypothetically going to drop by 0.25% when the Patriots start losing regularly and you're going to argue the point by tacking on another fraction of a fraction. Gedthefuggouttahere with that. You really kill me, man. Laugh riot.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The NFL has shown that no amount of money is enough for them. And while they do make money no matter who plays, they also make more money when certain teams play. Consider three teams:

Buffalo: the fans show up win or lose and the city has limited resources.

New England: the city has a lot more resources than Buffalo and the "fans" will bail at the first .500 season, especially if the Sox are in the playoffs

Jacksonville: a city with limited resources and no fans no matter how the team does.

The league has a vested interest in NE winning and doesn't gain anything by Buffalo or Jacksonville winning.

You know who else has a lot more resources than Buffalo and a fickle fanbase? Miami, the team that got the short end of this call. You're torpedoing your own argument.

Moreover, Buffalo fans don't show up win or lose anymore. We have been near the bottom of the league in attendance for years. Even Bills' fans patience had run out.


Ad as far as Notre Dame getting preferences, please. That argument is so outdated. It was true at one point, but mainly because of the national exposure, and with cable/satellite TV, NCAA game plan and the Internet, that advantage is long gone.

As I pointed out to DraftBoy - no it wasn't. Notre Dame had special favoritism for the BCS games and was more than once picked over teams with higher rankings because of their traveling fanbase.

[Ginger Vitis]

Well let's jus say he can't wait for me to finally be wrong.

it's already happened.. Multiple times

[OpIv37]

Yes, Miami's fan base is fickle, but this week the NFL needed positive publicity more than they needed to appease Miami fans, and we had the feel-good story.

[gebobs]

Yes, Miami's fan base is fickle, but this week the NFL needed positive publicity more than they needed to appease Miami fans, and we had the feel-good story.
Does anyone know where one could find historical attendance figures? NFL.com only gives them going back to 2001 IIRC. I can look up particular seasons for each team and it will have attendance for each individual game. It would be nice to have something more accessible.