How confident are you at this point that we're going to win more than 4 more games?

[Fletch]

OK, so we're 2-0 after a couple of unconventional wins where our offense did little to win the games. We've seen this movie before though. Last year we started 2-2 before finishing 6-10, 2-1 the year before same result, 3-0 the year before that same result. That's 7-3 to start the last three seasons, playoff performance up front. Not to mention that our team stats aren't really suggestive of a 2-0 team.

We're 2-0 but we rank in a 6-way tie for 2nd to last in offensive TDs scored. Defensively we rank 4th from the bottom in plays from scrimmage allowed and 2nd to last in 1st downs allowed.

Can we keep winning on FGs and return TDs? Our defense is currently ranked 21st in yardage, 27th in scoring, 5th in rushing and 27th in passing.

We only rank 17th in yardage offense and we haven't exactly played a great defense. We're 5th in rushing offense thanks to a bunch of yards in OT against the Bears, if we count only regulation we'd be about average, 6th in scoring thanks to Carpenter, and 26th in passing thanks to Manuel.

We need to find a way to get some drives going. We're 31st in 1st downs, 25th in 3rd conversions, and 28th in plays from scrimmage, all need to go up.

It's a little early in the season to be baselining yardage stats but the inability to move the ball which our 1st downs, 3rds, and total plays from scrimmage attest to are a concern. They were an issue last season and all through preseason and still are.

[TacklingDummy]

The ST and D should keep us in enough tight games to win at least 4-5 more.

The offense does need to step up.

13 First Downs and 22 points (6 FG Attempts) with the field position they were set up with against Miami is inexcusable. 7 of those points should have not counted due to Watkins fumbling the ball and the ball going out of bounds at the endzone.

Sundays game was much closer than the what the final score indicates.

[Fletch]

13 First Downs and 22 points (6 FG Attempts) with the field position they were set up with against Miami is inexcusable.

I agree. The concern should be that Miami's defense really isn't that good.

[Skooby]

Look at these two sharing a bridge to haunt, how precious.

[Historian]

I'll stand by 7-9, although I'm literally praying we break the playoff curse.

[HAMMER]

I stand by my prediction of 10-6.

[Dr. Lecter]

Watkins did not fumble the ball until after it hit the pylon

[THATHURMANATOR]

I am somewhat confident but after years of early starts and let downs I will believe it when I see it.

With that said what a fun time Sunday!!!! Can't wait to do it again this week!

[trapezeus]

normally i would be pessimistic, but as long as fletch keeps digging this grave, this bills keep winning. if fletch is doing this because he recognizes this is part of the puzzle to getting wins, then he should be nominated as a superfan since we are piling on him every chance we get.

i also think the bills, for the first time in a long time, don't have an active number 11 on the team that completely sucks. and voila! we aren't that awful anymore.

i also see a team after 2 weeks fairly injury free, playing good on all three sides of the ball and gets key contributions from different people. after two weeks that's a whole lot more than i was expecting.

[stuckincincy]

I'd think so. They've played 2 games against teams with injuries and goofy offensive play calling. KC has been devastated with injuries, so that should be a win.

I see now that SD rb Matthews is gone.

There's this gem:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000395342/article/joe-philbin-stands-by-conservative-firsthalf-decision

[JoeMama]

The ST and D should keep us in enough tight games to win at least 4-5 more.

The offense does need to step up.

13 First Downs and 22 points (6 FG Attempts) with the field position they were set up with against Miami is inexcusable. 7 of those points should have not counted due to Watkins fumbling the ball and the ball going out of bounds at the endzone.

Sundays game was much closer than the what the final score indicates.

What buffoonery is this?

Every touchdown is automatically reviewed by the NFL now.

The ball didn't shake lose until Watkins crossed the goal line and hit the pylon. That's not me saying it. That's a fact.

The lengths some of you will go to make everything sound awful is truly baffling.

[better days]

As long as the Bills stay healthy & the defense & Special teams keep playing well this team will continue to win.

Especially at HOME. Bills 27 Chargers 21

10-6 PLAYOFFS!

[Meathead]

that ball was moving before he tried to get it into two hands so he could reach for the pylon. further, its very questionable whether he ever got full control of the ball the second time before jamming it onto the pylon, and honestly i dont think he did

i havent complained about the game one bit, im glad the td counted, but if im a ref and get a look at that replay i think im reversing the td and giving the fish the ball at the twenty

[better days]

I'd think so. They've played 2 games against teams with injuries and goofy offensive play calling. KC has been devastated with injuries, so that should be a win.

I see now that SD rb Matthews is gone.

There's this gem:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000395342/article/joe-philbin-stands-by-conservative-firsthalf-decision

If you had watched the game, you would know Philben made the right decision.

The Crowd was CRAZY LOUD & the Bills Defense was playing GREAT.

The Fins had no hope of scoring before the half.

[better days]

that ball was moving before he tried to get it into two hands so he could reach for the pylon. further, its very questionable whether he ever got full control of the ball the second time before jamming it onto the pylon, and honestly i dont think he did

i havent complained about the game one bit, im glad the td counted, but if im a ref and get a look at that replay i think im reversing the td and giving the fish the ball at the twenty

The call on the field can not be overturned unless there is INDISPUTABLE evidence that the wrong call was made.

The call on the field was a TD.

[better days]

I agree. The concern should be that Miami's defense really isn't that good.

Well, if the Fins defense really isn't that good, Brady & the Pats* must be TERRIBLE.

[Dr. Lecter]

I think we all know that this team can blow up and finish 4-12. After all, it is the Bills and we have been teased before. And if they have a few injuries on defense and the offense starts to make mistakes, it can turn ugly quickly.

Of course, the defense can also keep playing well and EJ can establish a better rapport with Watkins and get back to hooking up with Woods too. The Oline can start to gel too. If this offense starts to flow well, they will be a damn good team. Certainly not a Super Bowl contendor yet. But they could contend for a playoff spot.

Right now I am going to enjoy what they are doing and how they are playing. The defense has more than done its job. And the offense has done enough and not made mistakes in terms of turnovers and sacks. throw in some timely special teams play and they have a blueprint to be a competitive team.

If I had to guess I would say they will win between 6-8 games. They could totally crap the bed and win 4. Or they could pull a few surprises and beat New England and Green Bay and win 10 games.

I think we can all say one thing - I don't think many of us expected a 2-0 start. So that is a positive.

[stuckincincy]

If you had watched the game, you would know Philben made the right decision.

The Crowd was CRAZY LOUD & the Bills Defense was playing GREAT.

The Fins had no hope of scoring before the half.

Will you PLEASE get down from your "if you had watched the game" hobby horse?

By your lights, nobody can make any comment about any game they haven't seen. News flash: Football has been around for over a hundreds of years. Fans have seen hundreds, thousands of games. They know about ebb and flow, they know how to interpret written play-by-play, they can interpret statistics and situations.

Not everybody needs a picture to understand things.

[justasportsfan]

Tdummy and fletch are the 2 posters here who wish the bills will lose just so they can say they were right

[better days]

I think we all know that this team can blow up and finish 4-12. After all, it is the Bills and we have been teased before. And if they have a few injuries on defense and the offense starts to make mistakes, it can turn ugly quickly.

Of course, the defense can also keep playing well and EJ can establish a better rapport with Watkins and get back to hooking up with Woods too. The Oline can start to gel too. If this offense starts to flow well, they will be a damn good team. Certainly not a Super Bowl contendor yet. But they could contend for a playoff spot.

Right now I am going to enjoy what they are doing and how they are playing. The defense has more than done its job. And the offense has done enough and not made mistakes in terms of turnovers and sacks. throw in some timely special teams play and they have a blueprint to be a competitive team.

If I had to guess I would say they will win between 6-8 games. They could totally crap the bed and win 4. Or they could pull a few surprises and beat New England and Green Bay and win 10 games.

I think we can all say one thing - I don't think many of us expected a 2-0 start. So that is a positive.

Battered Bills syndrome, akin to battered wife syndrome.

[Meathead]

... plus we know the replay system was completely unreliable on sunday. i suspect the review refs are under enormous pressure to get those automatic reviews done quickly, as evidenced by this completely unacceptable miss. if they had taken their time on the watkins play im afraid it would (and should have) been reversed. it would have been a massive swing, especially for the fish at that moment

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/TXB_cstNYEE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Meathead]

and personally i thought it WAS indisputable that the ball was moving

if im not a bills fan im calling that a fumble all day on review. in fact, i am a bills fan and i still call it a fumble. lucky for all of us im not a ref

[Novacane]

How do you figure the defense is 27th in scoring? Only 5 teams have given up less points.

[better days]

Will you PLEASE get down from your "if you had watched the game" hobby horse?

By your lights, nobody can make any comment about any game they haven't seen. News flash: Football has been around for over a hundreds of years. Fans have seen hundreds, thousands of games. They know about ebb and flow, they know how to interpret written play-by-play, they can interpret statistics and situations.

Not everybody needs a picture to understand things.

You can comment on football in general if you have a knowledge of football.

But unless you actually watch the game, you CAN NOT comment on that game because you do not know anything about the game.

The link you posted PROVES that FACT.

I think 99 people out of 100 that WATCHED the Bills Fins game would agree Philbin made the right call by running out the clock to end the half.

And on the halftime show, NOBODY criticized Philbin for doing so.

[malvado78]

OK, so we're 2-0 after a couple of unconventional wins where our offense did little to win the games. We've seen this movie before though. Last year we started 2-2 before finishing 6-10, 2-1 the year before same result, 3-0 the year before that same result. That's 7-3 to start the last three seasons, playoff performance up front. Not to mention that our team stats aren't really suggestive of a 2-0 team.

We're 2-0 but we rank in a 6-way tie for 2nd to last in offensive TDs scored. Defensively we rank 4th from the bottom in plays from scrimmage allowed and 2nd to last in 1st downs allowed.

Can we keep winning on FGs and return TDs? Our defense is currently ranked 21st in yardage, 27th in scoring, 5th in rushing and 27th in passing.

We only rank 17th in yardage offense and we haven't exactly played a great defense. We're 5th in rushing offense thanks to a bunch of yards in OT against the Bears, if we count only regulation we'd be about average, 6th in scoring thanks to Carpenter, and 26th in passing thanks to Manuel.

We need to find a way to get some drives going. We're 31st in 1st downs, 25th in 3rd conversions, and 28th in plays from scrimmage, all need to go up.

It's a little early in the season to be baselining yardage stats but the inability to move the ball which our 1st downs, 3rds, and total plays from scrimmage attest to are a concern. They were an issue last season and all through preseason and still are.

Stop making threads until you go update your "Watkins Watch" and give Watkins credit for his second game on an NFL field.

[stuckincincy]

You can comment on football in general if you have a knowledge of football.

But unless you actually watch the game, you CAN NOT comment on that game because you do not know anything about the game.

The link you posted PROVES that FACT.

I think 99 people out of 100 that WATCHED the Bills Fins game would agree Philbin made the right call by running out the clock to end the half.

And on the halftime show, NOBODY criticized Philbin for doing so.

I see. Teams are supposed to waste 2:21 approaching the half, armed with time outs and the 2 minute warning, because of crown noise. Teams that visit SEA, where noise-making is an art - may as well just forfeit, eh?

An appeal to what the talking heads say during halftime - who attempt to put in two lines about every team playing at that time - is meaningless. As to the pair who worked the MIA@BUF game, I recall reading several poster's comments about their poor performance.

[better days]

I see. Teams are supposed to waste 2:21 approaching the half, armed with time outs and the 2 minute warning, because of crown noise. Teams that visit SEA, where noise-making is an art - may as well just forfeit, eh?

An appeal to what the talking heads say during halftime - who attempt to put in two lines about every team playing at that time - is meaningless. As to the pair who worked the MIA@BUF game, I recall reading several poster's comments about their poor performance.

It was not just crowd noise. The Defense was playing GREAT.

The Fins did not pick up a first down that half before that drive!

The Bills allowed the Fins to run on that drive because they knew the Fins could not score by running the ball.

Going into the locker room down by only 9 points & knowing your team would get the opening kickoff & knowing that the Bills were more likely to get a turnover than you were of scoring at that time,

running out the clock was the right thing to do.

Is there ANYONE that WATCHED the game that does not agree with me?

And I agree, the announcers at the game were terrible, but the half time show does not use those announcers, it uses analysts in STUDIO.

Don't you watch ANY football on TV?

[Dr. Lecter]

and personally i thought it WAS indisputable that the ball was moving

if im not a bills fan im calling that a fumble all day on review. in fact, i am a bills fan and i still call it a fumble. lucky for all of us im not a ref

If the ball was moving and he still had it and touched the pylon the play ends. Which it did.

You are trying too hard to be objective here

[TedMock]

I actually ran into two refs at the airport after the game Sunday. They were at the Anchor Bar having a couple beers before their flights. I was sitting right next to them, but didn't want to bother them after their shift. The guy on the other side of them, though, he was relentless. Tough having 70,000 critics of your performance every week. I just listened in as I could. They said the preliminary post grade was good, but they did admit to missing one call - the right tackle for Miami should have been called for a false start. They said it was very loud down there and that Watkins kid is gonna be a good one. Review booth told them his fingers opened and the ball rolled out about a millisecond after it touched the pylon. The jist of what the one ref said was he bobbled, controlled, tucked and reached to touch pylon just before letting go. He was using hand/arm motions to show what they saw. I have not seen the replay yet myself other than at the game, but now I'm curious to get a closer look since there are strong opposite opinions here.

[Ed]

How do you figure the defense is 27th in scoring? Only 5 teams have given up less points.
Because he needs to make stuff up to help his argument. Bills defense is 6th in scoring with a stingy 15.0 pts/game. Pretty much the most important defensive statistic there is. But hey don't let facts get in the way, fletch.

[Dujek]

19-0

Ralph's final gift to the Bills.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

I voted 6-10 not for any other reason than I've seen this story play before. I think this team is more talented than in past years but I guess I'm like doubting Thomas. I'll believe it when i actually see it, but I'm really surprised and pleased to be 2-0 at this point!

[stuckincincy]

I voted 6-10 not for any other reason than I've seen this story play before. I think this team is more talented than in past years but I guess I'm like doubting Thomas. I'll believe it when i actually see it, but I'm really surprised and pleased to be 2-0 at this point!

You got that right.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

OK, so we're 2-0 after a couple of unconventional wins where our offense did little to win the games. We've seen this movie before though. Last year we started 2-2 before finishing 6-10, 2-1 the year before same result, 3-0 the year before that same result. That's 7-3 to start the last three seasons, playoff performance up front. Not to mention that our team stats aren't really suggestive of a 2-0 team.

We're 2-0 but we rank in a 6-way tie for 2nd to last in offensive TDs scored. Defensively we rank 4th from the bottom in plays from scrimmage allowed and 2nd to last in 1st downs allowed.

Can we keep winning on FGs and return TDs? Our defense is currently ranked 21st in yardage, 27th in scoring, 5th in rushing and 27th in passing.

We only rank 17th in yardage offense and we haven't exactly played a great defense. We're 5th in rushing offense thanks to a bunch of yards in OT against the Bears, if we count only regulation we'd be about average, 6th in scoring thanks to Carpenter, and 26th in passing thanks to Manuel.

We need to find a way to get some drives going. We're 31st in 1st downs, 25th in 3rd conversions, and 28th in plays from scrimmage, all need to go up.

It's a little early in the season to be baselining yardage stats but the inability to move the ball which our 1st downs, 3rds, and total plays from scrimmage attest to are a concern. They were an issue last season and all through preseason and still are.

Realistically, I think this team has a legit shot at 9-7. Ask me after San Diego as that is our next crucial test. We win that one, and I think 9-7 is possible as I see KC, Minnesota, Detroit, New York at Home, Cleveland, and Oakland as very winnable. I am not sure about the others, but right now those are winnable. So 9 and 7

[DesertFox24]

Man people find stuff to complain about San Fran and settled offense was not lights out last year or the year before.

The one thing to hang your hat on is we are winning and are not playing great football.

Since 2000 we have always been depth deprived and would have to play a perfect game and have no serious injuries. Now we have great depth and I think this off and def will get better as the season goes along.

The next four games will be big test for us. Chargers and pats at home are playoff talent for sure. At Detroit is playoff talent. I am not sold on texans I personally think Oakland is worst team in the league and wash will have a top 10 draft pick.

[ParanoidAndroid]

and personally i thought it WAS indisputable that the ball was moving

if im not a bills fan im calling that a fumble all day on review. in fact, i am a bills fan and i still call it a fumble. lucky for all of us im not a ref

No, he regained clear possession and it came out right as he hit the goal line. If you were a ref, you would get it wrong.

[mercyrule]

Those are pretty close. Yeah, six or seven

[sudzy]

I had them as 6-10 before the season. There was no way I figured they would win the Bears game. So right there is 7 wins. This team is to good not to win at least 4 more.

[Edward Robinson]

OK, so we're 2-0 after a couple of unconventional wins where our offense did little to win the games. We've seen this movie before though. Last year we started 2-2 before finishing 6-10, 2-1 the year before same result, 3-0 the year before that same result. That's 7-3 to start the last three seasons, playoff performance up front. Not to mention that our team stats aren't really suggestive of a 2-0 team.

We're 2-0 but we rank in a 6-way tie for 2nd to last in offensive TDs scored. Defensively we rank 4th from the bottom in plays from scrimmage allowed and 2nd to last in 1st downs allowed.

Can we keep winning on FGs and return TDs? Our defense is currently ranked 21st in yardage, 27th in scoring, 5th in rushing and 27th in passing.

We only rank 17th in yardage offense and we haven't exactly played a great defense. We're 5th in rushing offense thanks to a bunch of yards in OT against the Bears, if we count only regulation we'd be about average, 6th in scoring thanks to Carpenter, and 26th in passing thanks to Manuel.

We need to find a way to get some drives going. We're 31st in 1st downs, 25th in 3rd conversions, and 28th in plays from scrimmage, all need to go up.

It's a little early in the season to be baselining yardage stats but the inability to move the ball which our 1st downs, 3rds, and total plays from scrimmage attest to are a concern. They were an issue last season and all through preseason and still are.

Where are you getting your stats from. The BILLS are only allowing 15pts per game. The is no way in hell that would rank 27th in scoring defense. Now I have to check all the other stats you just wrote!!!

[Edward Robinson]

Because he needs to make stuff up to help his argument. Bills defense is 6th in scoring with a stingy 15.0 pts/game. Pretty much the most important defensive statistic there is. But hey don't let facts get in the way, fletch.


I just saw your post AFTER I type mine in response to this. I guess all great Ed's think alike lol........

[psubills62]

OK, so we're 2-0 after a couple of unconventional wins where our offense did little to win the games. We've seen this movie before though. Last year we started 2-2 before finishing 6-10, 2-1 the year before same result, 3-0 the year before that same result. That's 7-3 to start the last three seasons, playoff performance up front. Not to mention that our team stats aren't really suggestive of a 2-0 team.

We're 2-0 but we rank in a 6-way tie for 2nd to last in offensive TDs scored. Defensively we rank 4th from the bottom in plays from scrimmage allowed and 2nd to last in 1st downs allowed.

Can we keep winning on FGs and return TDs? Our defense is currently ranked 21st in yardage, 27th in scoring, 5th in rushing and 27th in passing.

We only rank 17th in yardage offense and we haven't exactly played a great defense. We're 5th in rushing offense thanks to a bunch of yards in OT against the Bears, if we count only regulation we'd be about average, 6th in scoring thanks to Carpenter, and 26th in passing thanks to Manuel.

We need to find a way to get some drives going. We're 31st in 1st downs, 25th in 3rd conversions, and 28th in plays from scrimmage, all need to go up.

It's a little early in the season to be baselining yardage stats but the inability to move the ball which our 1st downs, 3rds, and total plays from scrimmage attest to are a concern. They were an issue last season and all through preseason and still are.
Because we all know that statistics after two games are extremely meaningful. Especially when they are chosen with a specific intent in mind.

[Fletch]

normally i would be pessimistic, but as long as fletch keeps digging this grave, this bills keep winning. if fletch is doing this because he recognizes this is part of the puzzle to getting wins, then he should be nominated as a superfan since we are piling on him every chance we get.

i also think the bills, for the first time in a long time, don't have an active number 11 on the team that completely sucks. and voila! we aren't that awful anymore.

i also see a team after 2 weeks fairly injury free, playing good on all three sides of the ball and gets key contributions from different people. after two weeks that's a whole lot more than i was expecting.

Seriously, just asking the questions. I'm more interested in the how and why than the what. Cleveland is 2-0 now and they're not that good. They started 3-2 last season and finished 4-12.

Houston's 2-0 now too. Last season they started 2-0 and finished 2=14. So it's pretty clear that record this early on isn't all that significant. So I'm breaking down how we got here and trying to figure out why a lot of people seem to think that things have changed from last season and preseason so quickly when in my mind there are no reasons, it's just that things played out well for us in the first game and we faced what appears to be a pretty bad Fins team in the second.

Just not sure in my mind that that translates to improvement. Actually it doesn't. The Miami game at home was the most winnable game all season.

I'm having trouble seeing characteristics of the same kind of play that we had in preseason and last year and trying to convince myself that we've actually improved.

[Fletch]

Because we all know that statistics after two games are extremely meaningful. Especially when they are chosen with a specific intent in mind.

Is that a joke?

You think that 1st downs, 3rd down conversions, and ranking pretty close to the bottom across the board is meaningless?

I don't know what to say.

[Dr. Lecter]

Is that a joke?

You think that 1st downs, 3rd down conversions, and ranking pretty close to the bottom across the board is meaningless?

I don't know what to say.


Except for the numbers you cited incorrectly......

[Fletch]

Well, if the Fins defense really isn't that good, Brady & the Pats* must be TERRIBLE.

Their defense is pretty bad and has been for several seasons now. It doesn't intimidate anyone like it used to.

You may be very right on the offense. I know that Brady said he'll play into his 40s, but this should be a lesson to us regarding Fred Jackson too, no one cheats father time. Maybe this is Brady's swan song.

They've not played well yet this season. Minnesota's nothing withouth Peterson. I don't know if you've followed the Patriots, but last year their running D was terrible. It doesn't seem to be much better this season when Moreno looks like Peterson.

You make a valid point though.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Seriously, just asking the questions. I'm more interested in the how and why than the what. Cleveland is 2-0 now and they're not that good. They started 3-2 last season and finished 4-12.

Houston's 2-0 now too. Last season they started 2-0 and finished 2=14. So it's pretty clear that record this early on isn't all that significant. So I'm breaking down how we got here and trying to figure out why a lot of people seem to think that things have changed from last season and preseason so quickly when in my mind there are no reasons, it's just that things played out well for us in the first game and we faced what appears to be a pretty bad Fins team in the second.

Just not sure in my mind that that translates to improvement. Actually it doesn't. The Miami game at home was the most winnable game all season.

I'm having trouble seeing characteristics of the same kind of play that we had in preseason and last year and trying to convince myself that we've actually improved.

incorrect. they lost their first game to pittsburgh

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, the plays from scrimmage are skewed because of the overtime. I guess you only remove the OT numbers when it helps you make a point about the defense is not good.

Points allowed they are 6th - not 27th. Unless you want them to give up a lot of points

They are also 5ht in time of possession , although that also factors in OT

6th in sacks too. 4th in interceptions

So you are cherry picking your stats to make an evaluation.

Let's look at them all - not just some of them.

[Fletch]

Of course, the defense can also keep playing well and EJ can establish a better rapport with Watkins and get back to hooking up with Woods too. The Oline can start to gel too. If this offense starts to flow well, they will be a damn good team.

But is the defense playing well? I'm not sure that Miami, especially at home in that environment, where they did well considering, if the best gage to measure that by. Against Chicago we allowed over 400 yards of net offense and 4.8 yards per carry by a run defense that was supposed to be much better than it is. Miami had no good RBs in their game.

That's what I'm talking about, I don't see the improvement in that D yet. Everyone raved about Watkins' 100 yards on Sunday but no one commented on the fact that the other WRs had 2 catches for 8 yards between them. It may have been a good game for Watkins, but I don't view it as a good game for the passing offense. The running wasn't good either. Spiller had a big run but they didn't do much apart from that.


I think we can all say one thing - I don't think many of us expected a 2-0 start. So that is a positive.

It's going to get tougher. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that we're capable of winning 7 or 8 games much less making the playoffs. 2-0 is not evidence, it's a circumstance.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

But is the defense playing well? I'm not sure that Miami, especially at home in that environment, where they did well considering, if the best gage to measure that by. Against Chicago we allowed over 400 yards of net offense and 4.8 yards per carry by a run defense that was supposed to be much better than it is. Miami had no good RBs in their game.

That's what I'm talking about, I don't see the improvement in that D yet. Everyone raved about Watkins' 100 yards on Sunday but no one commented on the fact that the other WRs had 2 catches for 8 yards between them. It may have been a good game for Watkins, but I don't view it as a good game for the passing offense. The running wasn't good either. Spiller had a big run but they didn't do much apart from that.

It's going to get tougher. I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that we're capable of winning 7 or 8 games much less making the playoffs. 2-0 is not evidence, it's a circumstance.


in regards to watkins vs the rest of the receivers. Watkins was open all freaking day. why not throw to him? I see what you're saying about distribution, but if the opposing team basically refuses to cover your best receiever, you throw to him.

[Fletch]

Tdummy and fletch are the 2 posters here who wish the bills will lose just so they can say they were right

Thanks for the information, I didn't know that.

You forgot coastal and Spiked and one more, I forgot which of my other personalities it is.

[Dr. Lecter]

Houston's 2-0 now too. Last season they started 2-0 and finished 2=14. So it's pretty clear that record this early on isn't all that significant. So I'm breaking down how we got here and trying to figure out why a lot of people seem to think that things have changed from last season and preseason so quickly when in my mind there are no reasons, it's just that things played out well for us in the first game and we faced what appears to be a pretty bad Fins team in the second.



63% of teams that start 2-0 make the playoffs.

So it is significant. It is not the end all, but it surely means something.

Don't use the exception to prove the rule

[Fletch]

It was not just crowd noise. The Defense was playing GREAT.

I'm not so sure that they played well in the second half. We allowed 228 net yards in the last two quarters. That's good? 17 1st downs too.

Keep in mind here that Miami has no RBs, Tannehill throwing the ball, and only average receivers.

[Fletch]

Except for the numbers you cited incorrectly......

Yes, sorry about that one. Still, let's not overlook one error in eyeing up the whole enchilada.

We've played Miami who was without Moreno, has no RBs otherwise, and is not a good team. It may have been the easiest game on the schedule. We allowed well over 200 net yards of offense to that offense in the 2nd half, and 17 1st downs.

We still can't generate 1st downs or convert 3rds. We allowed way too many yards to Chicago too. We can ignore these things or we can look at them and decide if they're important. If we had a shut down D last season I might agree that they are just an anomaly. But we didn't. If we could move the ball last season and in preseason then I might agree that the inability of the offense to move the ball is an anomaly, but we struggled in those very things.

[trapezeus]

the real problem for the bills that should be keeping the coaching staff up is that they aren't scoring points on regular drives. they have scored points on short fields and even with those short drive starts its usually for 3.

But, not stat related, to improve, it usually is better to come from a place of confidence than a place of frustration. The bills are 2-0 and seem confident. the defense is playing very well. tannehill had 38 yards at the half. he picked up 60 yards in the garbage time when the game was decided. this gives the bills a chance to improve where needed on offense

it also lets hackett think about getting ej off the conservative playbook. if your defense shows it can bail you out a couple times, then you have to be willing to take more risk. that being said, at 2-0 its hard to fault hackett for running up the mmiddle on 3rd down, just milking clock and doing the simple thing. the bills have tried to be gimmicky so many times in the past and it came back to haunt us. in the dolphin game, they just ran up the middle on third down and milked clock. not exciting,but effective for this game.

I also think that you discount the non-stat line that the bills are "finding ways to win". and its coming from a cast of characters. it was fred and the d in week 1 making plays when plays desperately needed to be made. In week 2 it was spiller and watkins. and a common thread is that ej didn't do anything to hurt the team in both games. i'm with you on third down conversions and weaknesses in the offense. i'm even with you that the d is a little bend but don't break, but they did eat the dolphins alive. and you can say "they had their backup", but how many bills teams have made all stars out of the back up running back or backs no longer in their prime.

the bills are showing up at game time, they are fairly mistake free (specifically on big plays, big plays haven't been called back because of holding) and the line play by the bills was outstanding. that can only help EJ going forward. cameron wake was silenced. i didn't hear his name on the PA system once.

I don't know where this falls in the statline, but the team looks very confident and they are not making major mental mistakes. those are very good steps for a young team.

they very well may not make the playoffs or win 2 more games this season, but if this type of effort remains consistent, there seem to be more pieces to work with than thought before. and that is very good for the fans.

[Dr. Lecter]

Yes, sorry about that one. Still, let's not overlook one error in eyeing up the whole enchilada.

We've played Miami who was without Moreno, has no RBs otherwise, and is not a good team. It may have been the easiest game on the schedule. We allowed well over 200 net yards of offense to that offense in the 2nd half, and 17 1st downs.

We still can't generate 1st downs or convert 3rds. We allowed way too many yards to Chicago too. We can ignore these things or we can look at them and decide if they're important. If we had a shut down D last season I might agree that they are just an anomaly. But we didn't. If we could move the ball last season and in preseason then I might agree that the inability of the offense to move the ball is an anomaly, but we struggled in those very things.


You talk about the whole enchilada and cherry picked stats to make them look bad.

And we are ignoring things?

[Fletch]

incorrect. they lost their first game to pittsburgh

Correct. My error, was looking at CIN. Consider the rest then. The point still stands and last season they started 3-2 and finished 4-12.

Again, We're 7-3 to start the last three seasons, and 11-27 to finish them. People thought even more highly of the 2011 team that started 3-0 and even 5-2 before we skidded to 6-10 by going 1-8. The wins early that season were far more impressive too. We obliterated KC and beat the Pats too.

Some of us didn't see any more hope for the rest of the season back then than we do now.

Look, the team doesn't miraculously change and come together overnight as it appears to have now. That kind of stuff just doesn't happen.

[trapezeus]

Yes, sorry about that one. Still, let's not overlook one error in eyeing up the whole enchilada.

We've played Miami who was without Moreno, has no RBs otherwise, and is not a good team. It may have been the easiest game on the schedule. We allowed well over 200 net yards of offense to that offense in the 2nd half, and 17 1st downs.

We still can't generate 1st downs or convert 3rds. We allowed way too many yards to Chicago too. We can ignore these things or we can look at them and decide if they're important. If we had a shut down D last season I might agree that they are just an anomaly. But we didn't. If we could move the ball last season and in preseason then I might agree that the inability of the offense to move the ball is an anomaly, but we struggled in those very things.

60 of those yards came when the score was 29-10 and 3 minutes to go in the second half. another 50 could arguably have happened after the team held them to 4-3 at mid field. they sacked the qb 4 times and hit him countless other times. the first sack came with a huge hit from spikes and pretty much altered tannehill's confidence. When they needed points, they came away with 3.

Our first downs were limited as the dolphins were on the field in the 3rd quarter until the 3 minute mark. you also don't get first downs for kick return touchdowns. the bills d also had the bills O have good field starts near the 50.So even if they scored Td's, chances are their first down count would have been low because of their advantageous field position. something provided by a good defensive effort.

and you conveniently look to the stats instead of the actual game where the bills offense moved the ball when it absolutely had to at 16-10. the game could have turned. they picked up a big run by spiller. and on 3rd down and 6, when settling for FG seemed to be fine, they connected for not a conversion, but a TD. and that effectively ended the game. so by putting up 7, the couldn't give you the much coveted 3rd down conversion.

your stats only approach is a disaster. you knowingly can't argue your points without cherry picking random stats. but the stats don't really tell the story when you actually put context behind the numbers.

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't anybody is saying they have came together overnight

[Fletch]

You talk about the whole enchilada and cherry picked stats to make them look bad.

And we are ignoring things?

So what you're saying then is that the inability to generate 1st downs by converting 3rds, which creates an inability to move the football with any consistency whatsoever, a horrendous futility in the red zone, an accompanying inability to score offensive TDs a 21st ranking in defense, are all cherry-picked stats to make the team look bad?

See, I think that this is a prime example on why some of us can see how good this team really is contrasted with those that take issue with our views like that. Especially when it's the same on defense like ranking 2nd to last, against one sorry offense included, in allowing 1st downs.

Clearly there isn't a person that's knowledgeable about football in the world that would suggest that those are all irrelevant indicators. They're all central to being able to play good football consistently.

This is why our views differ. Like I said earlier, you have to look at the why and how, not just the what. I understand the reluctance to do that and to revel in the present 2-0, but for purposes of discussion that has to be done.

Either way, can I then interpret your response to mean that you don't view those things a being central to good football? Or would you like to revise your grievance?

[better days]

I'm not so sure that they played well in the second half. We allowed 228 net yards in the last two quarters. That's good? 17 1st downs too.

Keep in mind here that Miami has no RBs, Tannehill throwing the ball, and only average receivers.

You keep throwing out stats which are not correct & ignore the IMPORTANT CORRECT FACTS.

The Bills held the Fins to 10 points in that game.

That is GOOD Defense.

[Fletch]

I don't anybody is saying they have came together overnight

lol

They weren't playing anything close to this in terms of outcome in the preseason or last year. So when exactly did it change?

[Fletch]

60 of those yards came when the score was 29-10 and 3 minutes to go in the second half. another 50 could arguably have happened after the team held them to 4-3 at mid field. they sacked the qb 4 times and hit him countless other times. the first sack came with a huge hit from spikes and pretty much altered tannehill's confidence. When they needed points, they came away with 3.

Our first downs were limited as the dolphins were on the field in the 3rd quarter until the 3 minute mark. you also don't get first downs for kick return touchdowns. the bills d also had the bills O have good field starts near the 50.So even if they scored Td's, chances are their first down count would have been low because of their advantageous field position. something provided by a good defensive effort.

and you conveniently look to the stats instead of the actual game where the bills offense moved the ball when it absolutely had to at 16-10. the game could have turned. they picked up a big run by spiller. and on 3rd down and 6, when settling for FG seemed to be fine, they connected for not a conversion, but a TD. and that effectively ended the game. so by putting up 7, the couldn't give you the much coveted 3rd down conversion.

your stats only approach is a disaster. you knowingly can't argue your points without cherry picking random stats. but the stats don't really tell the story when you actually put context behind the numbers.

OK, so you think that 228-60 = 168 yards and 17 1st-downs allowed in the 2nd half, against a team with no good RBs and receivers that are hardly fearsome was a good showing otherwise?

Will you be happy with that on a w2w basis?

[Fletch]

You keep throwing out stats which are not correct & ignore the IMPORTANT CORRECT FACTS.

The Bills held the Fins to 10 points in that game.

That is GOOD Defense.

Our offense can't score and are terrible in the red zone. This was against a terrible defense.

We're terrible at moving the ball and sustaining drives.

Our FG kicker has more points than the entire offense combined in two games.

Defensively we rank 2nd to last and in front of only Jax for 1st downs allowed.

Those aren't important?

I think that they are. So does everyone not in this forum.

[Dr. Lecter]

So what you're saying then is that the inability to generate 1st downs by converting 3rds, which creates an inability to move the football with any consistency whatsoever, a horrendous futility in the red zone, an accompanying inability to score offensive TDs a 21st ranking in defense, are all cherry-picked stats to make the team look bad?

See, I think that this is a prime example on why some of us can see how good this team really is contrasted with those that take issue with our views like that. Especially when it's the same on defense like ranking 2nd to last, against one sorry offense included, in allowing 1st downs.

Clearly there isn't a person that's knowledgeable about football in the world that would suggest that those are all irrelevant indicators. They're all central to being able to play good football consistently.

This is why our views differ. Like I said earlier, you have to look at the why and how, not just the what. I understand the reluctance to do that and to revel in the present 2-0, but for purposes of discussion that has to be done.

Either way, can I then interpret your response to mean that you don't view those things a being central to good football? Or would you like to revise your grievance?

Very good.

This post is a perfect example of why people react to you like they do.

You keep saying you want to talk football yet you seem completely unable/unwilling to actually read what anybody actually says. And when somebody counters your argument with actual numbers and facts you respond like a petulant child

I never said anything of the kind. What I said, and proved by actually posting the stats and numbers is that there while the defense is lower than they could be in some figures they are also pretty damn good in a number of other categories. And those catergories you apparently did not want to hear about.

So no, of course those numbers are important.

But then again so are points allowed, sacks and turnovers. All of which their defense is exceptional on.

Or can I say that you don't think those numbers matter?

[Dr. Lecter]

BTW, Miami's defense last year was 21st in yards allowed. Certainly not great.

Certainly not terrible either.

[mercyrule]

BTW, Miami's defense last year was 21st in yards allowed. Certainly not great.

Certainly not terrible either.
That seems kinda terrible to me

[Dr. Lecter]

Meh. Out of 32 teams I don't get to terrible until about 25th or so. I would break it up into 4 groups of 8.

[better days]

Our offense can't score and are terrible in the red zone. This was against a terrible defense.

We're terrible at moving the ball and sustaining drives.

Our FG kicker has more points than the entire offense combined in two games.

Defensively we rank 2nd to last and in front of only Jax for 1st downs allowed.

Those aren't important?

I think that they are. So does everyone not in this forum.

The IMPORTANT fact is the Bills scored 29 points in that game.

I don't care when they came or how they came.

29 Points on the scoreboard is going to win a lot of games, especially with the Defense the Bills have.

[Fletch]

Very good.

This post is a perfect example of why people react to you like they do.

You keep saying you want to talk football yet you seem completely unable/unwilling to actually read what anybody actually says. And when somebody counters your argument with actual numbers and facts you respond like a petulant child

I never said anything of the kind. What I said, and proved by actually posting the stats and numbers is that there while the defense is lower than they could be in some figures they are also pretty damn good in a number of other categories. And those catergories you apparently did not want to hear about.

So no, of course those numbers are important.

But then again so are points allowed, sacks and turnovers. All of which their defense is exceptional on.

Or can I say that you don't think those numbers matter?

What a crock that is. EVERYTHING that I wrote was a face value and in the purest of good intentions.

Quit hiding behind yourself.

You can't insist that I cherry pick stats and data to make a point, suggest that I did so to make things look bad, and imply that I'm ignoring things, then when I restate what my core points are you back down.

Come on, really, this is what incites you? If so that's ridiculous.

Address the points. Do you or do you not think that those things are relevant to being able to play good football?

Talk about the football, not me.

[better days]

And Schwartz has said the only stat he is concerned about is points allowed.

[djjimkelly]

fletch what u can afford to bet ill take the action on over 4 how about that ?

[Fletch]

I never said anything of the kind. What I said, and proved by actually posting the stats and numbers is that there while the defense is lower than they could be in some figures they are also pretty damn good in a number of other categories. And those catergories you apparently did not want to hear about.

The number that we're good in are outweighed by the number that we're bad in.

Secondly, there are indicators that are at the core of what good football is. You should know what those are, you've watched football long enough, I'm guessing anyway. Maybe you're young and started watching a few years ago but you don't post like you're young and inexperienced like that.

So what are those things? How do we rank in them?

I would actually argue the contrary, that it's those on your side of this that cherry pick the few things that might indicate that we are better than we are while ignoring a whole range of other information and information that is and has been more consistent with the play of this team both last season and this preseason.

We can line them up if you like. But to be honest I haven't really seen a whole lot of factual indicators. All I read about is how Manuel is playing better based on a YPA stat despite the fact that he goes flatter than a pancake in the red zone, still can't put two quarters of football together, and leaves the ball on the field on 3rd downs more than just about every QB in the league.

Sounds like the cherry-picked item there is the ypa.

Defensively people are talking about this last game as if it was Denver's offense and not Miami's without a RB and receivers that aren't even average. Do we need to mention Tannehill?

Please, I would absolutely love it it you would put on paper that statistical indicators that suggest that we're good.

[Dr. Lecter]

What a crock that is. EVERYTHING that I wrote was a face value and in the purest of good intentions.

Quit hiding behind yourself.

You can't insist that I cherry pick stats and data to make a point, suggest that I did so to make things look bad, and imply that I'm ignoring things, then when I restate what my core points are you back down.

Come on, really, this is what incites you? If so that's ridiculous.

Address the points. Do you or do you not think that those things are relevant to being able to play good football?

Talk about the football, not me.


So it was coincidence that you ignored the stats that positive for the defense? OK. I will accept you at your word

I am not backing down at all. I already said that there are areas that the defense can improve on. Of course Trap also addressed some of the reasons the numbers are what they are as did I. Nobody is saying the defense is the best in the league. But to say that it has not done its job the first two weeks is absurd.

And I am more than willing to talk football. I did in several posts. Then you jumped on my ****.

Don't dish out what you can't take back.

Now address my points - are sacks important? Interceptions? Points allowed?

Are those relevant?

Not to mention when you try to look at football by using only stats it can skew reality. Stats are a great thing. But they are not the only way to evaluate a football team. They are but one tool, albeit an important one.

One last thing - nothing you post incites me. Don't think so highly of yourself.

[Fletch]

BTW, Miami's defense last year was 21st in yards allowed. Certainly not great.

Certainly not terrible either.

Right, and they haven't improved and have some significant injuries like Ellerbe.

So the best that we can do offensively is almost pull an 0-fer in the red zone, get 93 rushing yards from Spiller and Jackson, and 200 passing yards from Manuel?

You don't see a potential issue there?

I can't help but ask, how do you think we would play against a top ten defense like that?

[trapezeus]

OK, so you think that 228-60 = 168 yards and 17 1st-downs allowed in the 2nd half, against a team with no good RBs and receivers that are hardly fearsome was a good showing otherwise?

Will you be happy with that on a w2w basis?


to ask me if i would be happy with some stat line on a week to week basis without actual game context is absurd. in some cases that is a horrible, in other situations its not a big deal. for this game it's not a big deal.

yes. if the bills have the lead and they changed to a "we'll give you yards, but we won't give you big plays and let you into this game quickly" approach, then those stats are fine. let's call that the trent edwards second half stats. edwards always got 200 yards passing which was fun becuase JP couldn't do that. but edwards always got a crap load late in the second half when he was figured out. It was meaningless. but the stats would say he was a middling qb. not a disaster. w

Would you rather have a team put up 200 yards in a half where its 0-0, or would you rather have them put up 200 yards in the second half where they are playing from behind. if you think 168 yards and 17 1st downs is terrible to give up when you are trailing, EJ had 180 yards at the end of the first half from a 0-0 game. So miami must have played very poorly.

and your concern about other WR not named watkins having only a few catches is so pathetically absurd. I won't even bring up that you couldnt deal with watkins operating in a balanced environment in week 1. everyone got targeted a little bit on 22 passes. This time the 22 passes went to watkins and that's now your issue. In both games, each approach worked. Oh crap, i did bring that up sorry. what i wanted to complain about is that your kind of worrying on WR activity justifies people thinking that you aren't even rooting for this team. watkins wasn't open all day. he was wide open all day. why stop throwing to him if the teamcan't cover him? so that fletch can feel good for his bizarre stat needs that aren't consistent week to week? god knows bills teams have been beaten because they couldnt cover a guy. why can't that be us? because you have some obsession with balance in a game. if balance comes over the season, it will be fine.

i even think the bills struggled to figure out the miami adjustments on the first drive for 3 points. i'll give you that. but then they stoppped them on the TD drive, only to have it extended due to an uncalled penalty. and even with that giving up of 10 points, the bills offense responded with a TD. a team with balance.

[Fletch]

The IMPORTANT fact is the Bills scored 29 points in that game.

I don't care when they came or how they came.

29 Points on the scoreboard is going to win a lot of games, especially with the Defense the Bills have.

You should care if you want to know how this will play out down the road. We're not going to win regularly on FGs and return TDs.

At some point the offense is going to have to do more than put up one and a half TDs per game like it's doing now if we expect to win. Our defense, despite popular opinion here, is not as good as some think it is.

The 20 points that we put up against Chicago in regulation isn't even going to be enough most of the time. For sure less than 200 passing yards isn't going to.

[trapezeus]

Right, and they haven't improved and have some significant injuries like Ellerbe.

So the best that we can do offensively is almost pull an 0-fer in the red zone, get 93 rushing yards from Spiller and Jackson, and 200 passing yards from Manuel?

You don't see a potential issue there?

I can't help but ask, how do you think we would play against a top ten defense like that?

you'd have to ask the bills offense that question. they practice against a top 10 defense 5-days out of the week.

[Fletch]

So it was coincidence that you ignored the stats that positive for the defense? OK. I will accept you at your word

I am not backing down at all. I already said that there are areas that the defense can improve on. Of course Trap also addressed some of the reasons the numbers are what they are as did I. Nobody is saying the defense is the best in the league. But to say that it has not done its job the first two weeks is absurd.

And I am more than willing to talk football. I did in several posts. Then you jumped on my ****.

Don't dish out what you can't take back.

Now address my points - are sacks important? Interceptions? Points allowed?

Are those relevant?

Not to mention when you try to look at football by using only stats it can skew reality. Stats are a great thing. But they are not the only way to evaluate a football team. They are but one tool, albeit an important one.

One last thing - nothing you post incites me. Don't think so highly of yourself.

Quit being a baby.

I see no info in your post, only questions. It's difficult to offer a counter when you offer nothing to discuss.



Now address my points - are sacks important? Interceptions? Points allowed?

Are those relevant?

Are they? We damn near led the league last year in sacks and had a franchise record sack total, and finished with one of our best INT (TO) totals ever as a franchise, and what was our record?

Here's the difference between the way that you think and the way that I think. I view those in their context. You view them as a final and exclusive indicator. To me they are part of the whole thing.

Otherwise how do you explain that we also finished worse than 2012 in passing TDs allowed and also near a franchise record passing TDs allowed? (28)

I mean if sacks and INTs are that important, how do you explain that? I've asked this question dozens of times and still have yet to get an honest response.

Did good passing teams have any trouble whatsoever throwing on us last season?

Can you name one good passing team last year that we beat? Just one.

So you can imply that sacks and INTs are more important than the things that I've mentioned, but I've shown you how they are not. That's the way the team thinks, "if we can just get sacks we'll win games." That's why they don't know what they're doing. I'm thinking that you know better, and you probably do, I think that right now you're just so angry and can't even consider agreeing with anything I'm saying that it's standing in the way of reason for you. Understandable, but not reasonable.

You may view that as me being an *******, but it's just a question. Will you answer it? If you do you'll start seeing what I'm talking about here.

I'm trying to engage you and you keep making this about me and coming back to what I say. Quit being such a namby pamby.

If you think that sacks and INTs are key determinants in being a winning team, than post your evidence of that. I've posted numerous examples of the opposite.

If you think that sacks and INTs are more important than being able to generate 1st downs, and prevent them, moving the ball, red zone efficiency, and some other things that I've mentioned, then state why. Don't just sit there and tell me why you think I'm inciting you to acting like a baby.

[Fletch]

you'd have to ask the bills offense that question. they practice against a top 10 defense 5-days out of the week.

Right now it's a 27th ranked defense. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/position/defense

[better days]

You should care if you want to know how this will play out down the road. We're not going to win regularly on FGs and return TDs.

At some point the offense is going to have to do more than put up one and a half TDs per game like it's doing now if we expect to win. Our defense, despite popular opinion here, is not as good as some think it is.

The 20 points that we put up against Chicago in regulation isn't even going to be enough most of the time. For sure less than 200 passing yards isn't going to.

Passing yards do not win games, points do.

Agreed the offense is not rolling....yet.

But I think the fact the Bills are 2-0 with the Offense playing less than stellar says a lot about this team.

Pessimists may expect the Offense to stay stagnant or even to get worse.

I expect the Offense to IMPROVE.

[Fletch]

Passing yards do not win games, points do.

Agreed the offense is not rolling....yet.

But I think the fact the Bills are 2-0 with the Offense playing less than stellar says a lot about this team.

Pessimists may expect the Offense to stay stagnant or even to get worse.

I expect the Offense to IMPROVE.

No disrespect intended here bd, but what you or anyone expects really doesn't matter, does it? Many people expected more last season with Manuel here and seasons before with other changes.


Passing yards do not win games, points do.

Agreed the offense is not rolling....yet.

And don't you think that that's pretty ****ing important?

Only one team has fewer offensive TDs than we have.

Only three teams have worse red zone efficiency than we do.

[better days]

Right now it's a 27th ranked defense. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/position/defense

I already told you, the only stat that matters is points allowed.

[pmoon6]

The most funny thing in football or pro sports is predictions. Most of the time, a game turns on two or three plays and other factors like officiating. If you make those plays and get calls going your way, you will have a winning record and be lauded as a good team. If you don't, you will be called a loser and you suck.

In truth, there is not alot of difference between your "good" teams and the ones viewed as "bad". That's why the "any given Sunday" cliche came into being.

[better days]

No disrespect intended here bd, but what you or anyone expects really doesn't matter, does it? Many people expected more last season with Manuel here and seasons before with other changes.



And don't you think that that's pretty ****ing important?

Only one team has fewer offensive TDs than we have.

Only three teams have worse red zone efficiency than we do.

Well, in the same respect it doesn't matter if you think the offense will not improve.

Time will tell.

And only 5 teams aside from the Bills are 2-0.

[pmoon6]

As for ranking, either defensive or offensive, it's about yardage and doesn't take into consideration, turnovers or scoring. It also doesn't take into consideration the actual game situations. The Bills' were content to drop their corners and safeties and let Miami have the underneath passes, tackle and keep the clock running. Classic prevent and the Dolphins complied.

Statistics are usually for sub morons that either didn't watch the game or use what ever statistics that support their points. It's unfortunate that we have too many of those on this board.

Small sample, but right now the Bills' are allowing an average of 15 points a game. That's pretty good and a stat that the naysayers and crybabies will ignore.

Of course, I have already mentioned why posters like Fletch and Wagon Circlejerker bother to post.

It feeds their psychological needs.

I would hate to have issues like those two and believe long term therapy would help greatly.

[trapezeus]

Right now it's a 27th ranked defense. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/position/defense

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPoints/position/defense

if we are cherry picking how we view defense, i found them ranked 6th in total points and not yards given up. hmmmmm, i wonder which is more important.

[trapezeus]

passing yards to measure a qb is accurate when the team is pass first. on a run oriented team, you want to see high pass/attempt to know that when you do have to pass you are picking up yards.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt

on this basis, the bills are 9th. and yet they are 31st on attempts. so they seems to say they aren't passing often, but when they do, it's effective. and then there is that pesky feature of being 2-0 as proof that its effective.

also the 10th ranked qb average is in line with being effective. while QB ratings can be misleading, its high score here simply says, turnovers have been limited thus far. and the TD's production hvae not lifted it higher.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/rushingYards
this shows that they are the 6th rated run team in terms of yards. so a little proof they are focused on running, not passing.

i don't think analysis is your strong suit, fletch.

[Fletch]

I already told you, the only stat that matters is points allowed.

OK, so let's reconvene again in November instead of trying to create an entire season after playing what might be the weakest offense in the league.

Make sense?

[Fletch]

The most funny thing in football or pro sports is predictions. Most of the time, a game turns on two or three plays and other factors like officiating. If you make those plays and get calls going your way, you will have a winning record and be lauded as a good team. If you don't, you will be called a loser and you suck.

In truth, there is not alot of difference between your "good" teams and the ones viewed as "bad". That's why the "any given Sunday" cliche came into being.

That's true, but as a generalism. You can't just say that Denver and Jacksonville have the same chances of being in the playoffs because "on any given Sunday."

[Fletch]

Well, in the same respect it doesn't matter if you think the offense will not improve.

Time will tell.

And only 5 teams aside from the Bills are 2-0.

That is correct, it does not.

But it does matter that last season it sucked and that in preseason it sucked and couldn't score and that we're still having simiar issues, which is what my position is entirely based on.

Yours is based on opinions.

[pmoon6]

That's true, but as a generalism. You can't just say that Denver and Jacksonville have the same chances of being in the playoffs because "on any given Sunday."No, but then again, Jacksonville doesn't have an overprotected superstar at QB. If they actually ever called holding on the Broncos, I might vapor lock on the spot.

That's one of the reasons the NFL has become a bit of a joke.

If I didn't have such a long and emotional connection to the Buffalo Bills, I would never watch another game.

[Dr. Lecter]

Quit being a baby.

I see no info in your post, only questions. It's difficult to offer a counter when you offer nothing to discuss.

A baby? lol

I offered up the numbers a few times in my posts.




Are they? We damn near led the league last year in sacks and had a franchise record sack total, and finished with one of our best INT (TO) totals ever as a franchise, and what was our record?

Here's the difference between the way that you think and the way that I think. I view those in their context. You view them as a final and exclusive indicator. To me they are part of the whole thing.

I don't view them as that. And I stated as such. You can do a lot better than trying to put words in my mouth. They are only part of the package. No sane person would question that.

But continue on your mission to re construct what others say.


Otherwise how do you explain that we also finished worse than 2012 in passing TDs allowed and also near a franchise record passing TDs allowed? (28)

I mean if sacks and INTs are that important, how do you explain that? I've asked this question dozens of times and still have yet to get an honest response.



Because they are not the only thing that matters. Again, I never said they were. Last year's defense was pretty clearly an aggressive defense that will make big plays and also give up big plays.

Did good passing teams have any trouble whatsoever throwing on us last season?

Can you name one good passing team last year that we beat? Just one.



Well, they did not beat many teams last season.

But they did beat Carolina and Baltimore, neither are bad passing teams

More importantly they beat Chicago this year who is one of the better passing teams in the league.

So you can imply that sacks and INTs are more important than the things that I've mentioned, but I've shown you how they are not. That's the way the team thinks, "if we can just get sacks we'll win games." That's why they don't know what they're doing. I'm thinking that you know better, and you probably do, I think that right now you're just so angry and can't even consider agreeing with anything I'm saying that it's standing in the way of reason for you. Understandable, but not reasonable.

You may view that as me being an *******, but it's just a question. Will you answer it? If you do you'll start seeing what I'm talking about here.


Except I never implied or stated that. All I did was add those stats into the conversation that you started and left out. It really is not too hard to figure that part out.

And I am not angry. If you think you can make me angry you are sadly mistaken.

But I find it interesting that you have to do these projections onto others.


I'm trying to engage you and you keep making this about me and coming back to what I say. Quit being such a namby pamby.



actually you are doing nothing but point out that I am angry baby or something like that.


If you think that sacks and INTs are key determinants in being a winning team, than post your evidence of that. I've posted numerous examples of the opposite.


Once again, I said it was part of the picture of a defense. Not the only one.

But if you insist, last year Seattle was 8th in sacks and 1st in interceptions.

So there - an example for you.

I think Seattle won a few games last year.

If you think that sacks and INTs are more important than being able to generate 1st downs, and prevent them, moving the ball, red zone efficiency, and some other things that I've mentioned, then state why. Don't just sit there and tell me why you think I'm inciting you to acting like a baby.

And to repeat - for the umpteenth time - I did not say they were more important. Just that they were part of the picture.

And please - I frankly don't care your attitude and how you go after me or any other poster.


Just don't piss and moan when people return the treatment to you.

[Fletch]

As for ranking, either defensive or offensive, it's about yardage and doesn't take into consideration, turnovers or scoring. It also doesn't take into consideration the actual game situations. The Bills' were content to drop their corners and safeties and let Miami have the underneath passes, tackle and keep the clock running. Classic prevent and the Dolphins complied.

Statistics are usually for sub morons that either didn't watch the game or use what ever statistics that support their points. It's unfortunate that we have too many of those on this board.

Small sample, but right now the Bills' are allowing an average of 15 points a game. That's pretty good and a stat that the naysayers and crybabies will ignore.

Of course, I have already mentioned why posters like Fletch and Wagon Circlejerker bother to post.

It feeds their psychological needs.

I would hate to have issues like those two and believe long term therapy would help greatly.



Small sample, but right now the Bills' are allowing an average of 15 points a game. That's pretty good and a stat that the naysayers and crybabies will ignore.

One would think that if a team played Denver and New Orleans in their first two games that they would be ranked near the bottom in scoring D.

Similarly if a team had played Jacksonville and St. Louis that their team would presently be near the top in scoring D.

We played a bad offense and an a good one that had lots of miscues. We can suppose that for points we would be near the top, especially since we had unusual favorable circumstances that no team is going to have this season in our home opener.

- - - Updated - - -


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPoints/position/defense

if we are cherry picking how we view defense, i found them ranked 6th in total points and not yards given up. hmmmmm, i wonder which is more important.

What's most important is to ask yourself why the difference and to be able to explain it clearly and logically.

[Fletch]

i don't think analysis is your strong suit, fletch.

If you are an honest person you will be saying the opposite by the end of the season.

It doesn't get more cherry picking than rationalizing away like you did in the rest of your post. That's a never ending can of worms far more than it is a good analysis.

[Dr. Lecter]

One would think that if a team played Denver and New Orleans in their first two games that they would be ranked near the bottom in scoring D.

Similarly if a team had played Jacksonville and St. Louis that their team would presently be near the top in scoring D.

We played a bad offense and an a good one that had lots of miscues. We can suppose that for points we would be near the top, especially since we had unusual favorable circumstances that no team is going to have this season in our home opener.

- - - Updated - - -



What's most important is to ask yourself why the difference and to be able to explain it clearly and logically.


They played Chicago, hardly a week offense.
And is it possible that those miscues were caused by the Bills defense?

[Figster]

Playoffs baby!!!!

[Fletch]

No, but then again, Jacksonville doesn't have an overprotected superstar at QB. If they actually ever called holding on the Broncos, I might vapor lock on the spot.

That's one of the reasons the NFL has become a bit of a joke.

If I didn't have such a long and emotional connection to the Buffalo Bills, I would never watch another game.

I agree, but that is not a good argument, not that you meant it to be.

I hear you on the rest, it's an addiction. lol

[pmoon6]

If you are an honest person you will be saying the opposite by the end of the season.So, if your analysis does prove to be correct, are you going to jump up and down and yell "I was right and you were wrong"?

Just like I said, it's more about being "right" and self aggrandizement than it is about supporting your football team. That is if the Buffalo Bills are,in fact, your football team.

Personally, I think you sound more like a Dolphins Fan that was butthurt on Sunday and has to vent by tolling.

[Fletch]

I offered up the numbers a few times in my posts.

You did, where?

You don't say much to comment on that has any substance.


Well, they did not beat many teams last season.

But they did beat Carolina and Baltimore, neither are bad passing teams

Well, OK, this might be why we disagree. Baltimore had the 18th ranked pass offense and sucked becuase they cut Boldin and only had Torrey Smith. Carolina was ranked 29th. If that's not bad I don't know what is.


Once again, I said it was part of the picture of a defense. Not the only one.

But if you insist, last year Seattle was 8th in sacks and 1st in interceptions.

Great, then paint the whole picture. Seattle also wasn't ranked 20th in passing TDs allowed, they were ranked 2nd and allowed 16 to our 28.

Our pass D allowed a 55.3% completion rate, theirs allowed a 59.0, which is why I don't consider that to be nearly as relevant as other info. But how then would you explain the fact that they had the #1 D in the league in both yardage and scoring while we were 10th in yardage and 20th in scoring?


And to repeat - for the umpteenth time - I did not say they were more important. Just that they were part of the picture.

Clearly some are more important since we can't win with you and others talking about how great the ones that you cherry pick are. Right?


And please - I frankly don't care your attitude and how you go after me or any other poster.


Just don't piss and moan when people return the treatment to you.

Yes you do, you've stated it.

I only piss and moan when I post information and people respond by ignoring it, not refuting it, and by doing what you've done, by talking about sacks and INTs and then when asked what that got us you don't answer the question.

I'm not the one that should have to be defending a bad team as being good. The ones that are insisting that we're going to be better this year have that burden placed on them. When the best that can be said is that I'll see, fine, then let's wait and quit cherry picking things that overlook all of our problems as the reasons for why we're going to do it.

This preseason no one had any hopes because our starting offense couldn't score and we couldn't move the ball. It still sucks at scoring and moving the ball. You and others just won't admit it.

I guess now because we've scored three offensive TDs in two games we are worldbeaters. It makes a little sense that any improvement at all over preseason would be exagerated, but we still have to compare ourselves to our opponents. We've played two bad defenses, not two good ones.

I cite that. No one cites anything to argue that besides things that aren't relevant to it. Some see signs of improvement by Manuel, I don't. I see the same things. Can't put together an entire game or anything close. Sucks in the red zone and reads are a part of that. Is terrible at getting 1st downs. Those are facts, not opinions. They're also going to be more of a problem than completing 68% of his passes will help.

Remember Holcomb? He had a similar completion percentage. He was 2nd in the NFL in completion % a sliver ahead of Peyton. Was he good? Was our offense under him good? Was it much different than now?

So yes, I will cite the above things and offer proof that completion percentage is neither a sign of imminent improvement of either Manuel or the offense.

You and anyone else can argue that, but just put up some examples of a QB like Manuel last year that improved his completion percentage without any improvement in red zone and ball movement, regression in fact, and how that improved another offense, ours or another, and then use that as the argument, not that I like to "cherry pick" stats or some other ****.

[Fletch]

So, if your analysis does prove to be correct, are you going to jump up and down and yell "I was right and you were wrong"?

Just like I said, it's more about being "right" and self aggrandizement than it is about supporting your football team. That is if the Buffalo Bills are,in fact, your football team.

Personally, I think you sound more like a Dolphins Fan that was butthurt on Sunday and has to vent by tolling.

No, it's not like you said. But if you are wrong why not take the opportunity to learn from it and apply it to next season.

This whole thing about who's better than who here is stupid.

Can't we just talk about football and the Bills without everyone taking everything personally? I guess not, I guess it's impossible, huh?

[pmoon6]

No, it's not like you said. But if you are wrong why not take the opportunity to learn from it and apply it to next season.

This whole thing about who's better than who here is stupid.

Can't we just talk about football and the Bills without everyone taking everything personally? I guess not, I guess it's impossible, huh?HaHaHa. I take nothing here personally. I do amuse myself taking shots and being derogatory towards posters that portray themselves as know-it-alls, especially the overly negative.

You seem to want to nitpick even when we had two good wins.

Interesting.

[CoolBreeze]

No disrespect intended here bd, but what you or anyone expects really doesn't matter, does it? Many people expected more last season with Manuel here and seasons before with other changes.



And don't you think that that's pretty ****ing important?

Only one team has fewer offensive TDs than we have.

Only three teams have worse red zone efficiency than we do.


Who cares? Does it really matter? A win is a win, why you can't appreciate or accept it is a mystery to me. Take the win no matter how it's won. I don't care if Manuel has 100 yds 0 tds and is 0/4 in the red zone. As long as a win is achieved, it doesn't matter how it was achieved.

Some like you call it luck. But as you've been saying throughout the forum, you're just discussing football. Which is fine, but having any knowledge of the game one would know MOST games come down to a few key plays. We've been making all those those plays on ALL units offense, defense, and special teams. As a result a well deserved 2-0. So please excuse those who becoming more hostile with you including myself. But after two great games and a 2-0 start. It just seems you're digging really deep to find something to rain on this parade with.

Your constant gloom and knit picking is getting old fast. It's obnoxious, frustrating, and arrogant all in one. It actually kills me knowing a select few fans here would have bigger smiles on their faces if we lost.. Just because they're right and can come to these boards and rub in how right they were from the safety of their computers. It's pathetic

[Edward Robinson]

Right now it's a 27th ranked defense. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing/position/defense

Dude I you really cant make this stuff up. There are 27th Ranked against the PASS!!!! not in total. I'm new to the board as far as poster but other people on our right. You do just make stuff up without putting the time in make sure you are giving correct info or giving your opinion based upon real research.

If you really want to know the bills are ranked 21th overall in total yards allowed which includes a OT game
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

The Bills are currently ranked 6th in the NFL in the most important stat defensive. Pts per game at 15.00 per game
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

Just time a little time to think before you just type away

[Fletch]

Who cares? Does it really matter? A win is a win, why you can't appreciate or accept it is a mystery to me. Take the win no matter how it's won. I don't care if Manuel has 100 yds 0 tds and is 0/4 in the red zone. As long as a win is achieved, it doesn't matter how it was achieved.

It doesn't matter?

You can't possibly be more wrong if you're talking about projecting the season. Obviously you don't care if Manuel sucks like that but obviously you're also mental if you can't see how that doesn't project to more wins. There is no cure for stupidity the last time I looked.

Yours is one of the most classic stupid posts of all time. Presumably you have a brain to match.

[Fletch]

Dude I you really cant make this stuff up. There are 27th Ranked against the PASS!!!! not in total. I'm new to the board as far as poster but other people on our right. You do just make stuff up without putting the time in make sure you are giving correct info or giving your opinion based upon real research.

If you really want to know the bills are ranked 21th overall in total yards allowed which includes a OT game
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

The Bills are currently ranked 6th in the NFL in the most important stat defensive. Pts per game at 15.00 per game
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame/position/defense

Just time a little time to think before you just type away

Error on my part going back and forth. Big deal.

lol, OK, 21st in total D. The fact that you think that difference is relevant is ridiculous. Miami has no offense. Chicago put up a ton of yards but just made too many mistakes to have it matter, it's not like we stopped them.

Trying to explain why some defense that everyone claims is good being ranked 21st as being irrelevant is the laughable part here.

What part did you miss when I talked about how if your first two games are against Denver and NO you would expect to be ranked low whereas if they were against Jacksonville and St. Louis you would expect to be ranked high?

Two games? Really on the Ws?

2011 - 3-0 to start, 6-10 to end.

2012 - 2-1 to start, 6-10 to end.

2013 - 2-2 to start including wins over Baltimore and Carolina and a close loss to the Pats who we never beat, and another 6-10 finish.

Seriously, if 2-0 meant anything then those things would not have happened.

Being 2-0 means absolutely nothing for the other 14 games.

What gets old really fast is fools that have short memories trying to force everyone to think that something is different based on pretty much that alone.

What you can't make up are the flimsy arguments that people here put forth to insist that the team has improved.

[trapezeus]

If you are an honest person you will be saying the opposite by the end of the season.

It doesn't get more cherry picking than rationalizing away like you did in the rest of your post. That's a never ending can of worms far more than it is a good analysis.

intellectually dishonest on your part. stats show that they are a run first team and good at it. and when they pass they are effective.
you're deeper specific stats don't show anything after two weeks.

it'd be odd if my explanation was a better days type explanation where the team is 0-2 and i'm trying to justify why they are "good". but the stat that says they are good is 2-0. and for them to remain good over a season they have to be over 10 wins.

my explanation is that the stats bear out what we thought. you're stats are easily refuted.

the only thing that i agree with you is that 3rd down conversions are bad. it is bottom of the league and the first downs thus far are bottom of the league and the TD's aren't at the top to explain long drives with few 1st downs.

but i don't see any 2-0 team that looks superbowl bound and nicely wrapped right now to win it all. and frankly, the last10-15 years, teams that looked like the studs (obvious superbowl team) usually fades away in the second half and or playoffs. so i'd rather be where we are. where we have to be focused, we have to gameplan correctly and we have to be focused on playing well to have a chance. that breeds good habits vs luckily winning a couple games at the end like in 2011 or beating up bad teams.

[Fletch]

Dude I you really cant make this stuff up. There are 27th Ranked against the PASS!!!! not in total.

So, do you think being ranked 27th against the pass and having allowed an average of 275 passing yards per game is actually good?

Do you see that maybe being a problem as we head into the rest of the season?

I mean Tannehill? The Miami receivers are second rate tops. Chicago's are good but they also put up 341 passing yards on us. We will face better passing offenses than the one that showed up in Chicago you know.

Anyway, I guess you think that's good. I don't. I'll have to disagree and suggest that it's going to be a problem sooner than later.

[CoolBreeze]

It doesn't matter?

You can't possibly be more wrong if you're talking about projecting the season. Obviously you don't care if Manuel sucks like that but obviously you're also mental if you can't see how that doesn't project to more wins. There is no cure for stupidity the last time I looked.

Yours is one of the most classic stupid posts of all time. Presumably you have a brain to match.

With the complete BS ridiculous threads/posts you throw up, you have a lot of nerve calling anothers stupid. LOL you obviously missed the point of the post... But as you've said there's no cure for stupidity. But for your sake, I hope you continue to look

[better days]

Error on my part going back and forth. Big deal.

lol, OK, 21st in total D. The fact that you think that difference is relevant is ridiculous. Miami has no offense. Chicago put up a ton of yards but just made too many mistakes to have it matter, it's not like we stopped them.

Trying to explain why some defense that everyone claims is good being ranked 21st as being irrelevant is the laughable part here.

What part did you miss when I talked about how if your first two games are against Denver and NO you would expect to be ranked low whereas if they were against Jacksonville and St. Louis you would expect to be ranked high?

Two games? Really on the Ws?

2011 - 3-0 to start, 6-10 to end.

2012 - 2-1 to start, 6-10 to end.

2013 - 2-2 to start including wins over Baltimore and Carolina and a close loss to the Pats who we never beat, and another 6-10 finish.

Seriously, if 2-0 meant anything then those things would not have happened.

Being 2-0 means absolutely nothing for the other 14 games.

What gets old really fast is fools that have short memories trying to force everyone to think that something is different based on pretty much that alone.

What you can't make up are the flimsy arguments that people here put forth to insist that the team has improved.

2-0 means nothing in regards to future games, but as Edward Robinson pointed out & I have said, the only stat on defense that matters is points allowed & the Bills are #6 in that.

If they keep playing like that, the team will make the playoffs no matter how many yards they allow.

And as I have also said before, the Bucs gave up a ton of yards the year they won the Super Bowl.

[trapezeus]

against the bears, they had less yards per completion and were 5-12 on 3rd downs. two stats you seem to like. and their turnovers were as much their mistakes as caused by the defenses play. if the bills have a 3 turnover game, i'm sure you'd be talking about how the defense is so much better than our offense. not that we were the better team who just happened to acciddently turn the ball over 3 times.

and for the bears running all over us at 4 yards a rush, the bills were averaging 5 in the game on 2x the number of rushes. where are the accolades that we did what we set out to do.

you're the kind of guy that could win the lottery in a groiup pool and ***** that if you could have kept the whole pool, it would have been better. sometimes, you just have to take the good as it is.

[better days]

against the bears, they had less yards per completion and were 5-12 on 3rd downs. two stats you seem to like. and their turnovers were as much their mistakes as caused by the defenses play. if the bills have a 3 turnover game, i'm sure you'd be talking about how the defense is so much better than our offense. not that we were the better team who just happened to acciddently turn the ball over 3 times.

and for the bears running all over us at 4 yards a rush, the bills were averaging 5 in the game on 2x the number of rushes. where are the accolades that we did what we set out to do.

you're the kind of guy that could win the lottery in a groiup pool and ***** that if you could have kept the whole pool, it would have been better. sometimes, you just have to take the good as it is.

Fletch is still PO'ed the Bills are staying in Buffalo.

Not another word Fletch can say about that.

And with the Bills 2-0 record, he is grasping at the only straws left, trying to rain on the parade.

[better days]

No, he regained clear possession and it came out right as he hit the goal line. If you were a ref, you would get it wrong.

I just watched game rewind on my TIVO.

I ran that play in slo motion on TIVO which works great.

#21 Brent Grimes of the Fins, got his hand on the ball & jarred it loose for a second.

Watkins regained control before the ball hit the pylon.

[Ginger Vitis]

Error on my part going back and forth. Big deal.








This isnt a one time thing though.. Errors from you are numerous and daily

[Dujek]

Forget stats. On the eyeball test the Bears and Dolphins looked very good against the 49ers and Patriots respectively, the Bills beat both of them and were good value for both wins.

If you beat good teams, one of them on the road, then you are a good team.

[Dr. Who]

Forget stats. On the eyeball test the Bears and Dolphins looked very good against the 49ers and Patriots respectively, the Bills beat both of them and were good value for both wins.

If you beat good teams, one of them on the road, then you are a good team.

Sample size is still a little small, but it is definitely trending that way.

[Dr. Lecter]

I wonder if Fletch will describe why, if the Bills beat the Bears who beat San Fran and the Dolphins, who beat NE, then they are still just horrible.

Of course, this is not to claim that the Bills are better than the 49ers or the Patriots because you can't just circle around like that.

But they also did not beat Oakland and Tampa Bay either. They beat two teams who were able to beat legitimate teams in their other games. There can be a lot to cause that to happen. But it definitely deserves recognition.

[Edward Robinson]

So, do you think being ranked 27th against the pass and having allowed an average of 275 passing yards per game is actually good?

Do you see that maybe being a problem as we head into the rest of the season?

I mean Tannehill? The Miami receivers are second rate tops. Chicago's are good but they also put up 341 passing yards on us. We will face better passing offenses than the one that showed up in Chicago you know.

Anyway, I guess you think that's good. I don't. I'll have to disagree and suggest that it's going to be a problem sooner than later.

Dude I never said being ranked 27th against the pass is good. I just know that so far this year that the defense is carrying the load. The are creating turnovers and causing havoc. What you fail to realize is that the 1st half vs the dolphins we controlled the game , 3rd quarter the dolphins adjusted, 4th WE adjusted. That was the different in the game. Point Blank. Is everything perfect? No but what would rather have, impressive stats and no wins or ugly stats and wins. If you cant see the BILLS are a better team this year than they have been in recent years past there is nothing I can say to use get you to see that

[psubills62]

Is that a joke?

You think that 1st downs, 3rd down conversions, and ranking pretty close to the bottom across the board is meaningless?

I don't know what to say.I think that points per game are a better measure than looking at stats like offensive TD's scored. We're 6th best in the NFL in both points scored and points scored against. 8th in the NFL in yards per play is even a much better indicator than 1st downs, given that plays like Spiller's run TD gets a lot of yards and 7 points, but only one first down. Turnover margin is typically a good indicator of teams that do well during the season too. Our +4 is 5th in the league.

If you really want me to nitpick various parts of your posts: 1) saying they aren't extremely meaningful does not = meaningless, and 2) there aren't all that many 3rd downs through 2 games so the percentages can be heavily biased.

It's also hard to imagine which stats are legitimately better than wins. Claiming moral/statistical losses is about as legitimate as claiming moral wins.

I'm seriously waiting for you to argue that our opponents are only 2-2 on the season.