Was Sammy's TD really a TD or was it a fumble?

[Meathead]

as you can see from these boards, im not a complainer (except about the rirs in prs). i havent *****ed about anything and loved this win

but being completely honest here, that ball was moving before he tried to get it into two hands so he could reach for the pylon. further, its very questionable whether he ever got full control of the ball the second time before jamming it onto the pylon, and honestly i dont think he did

if im a ref and get a look at that replay i think im reversing the td and giving the fish the ball at the twenty

http://www.buffalobills.com/video/videos/Sammy_Watkins_first_NFL_touchdown/2380d27d-b8cb-48da-a1d5-2a9d4e9794b7

[casdhf]

I said that at the time. I would have given that to the fins as a touch-back.

[ICRockets]

I think it was legitimately too close to overturn. I change my mind every single time I watch it. Sometimes it looks like a fumble, other times it looks like he regains control juuuust long enough to hit the pylon with the ball right before he loses it again, sometimes it looks like he throws the ball at the pylon. I have no idea. No ****ing clue.

[better days]

It looked to me the ball moved, but Watkins got control of the ball again before it hit the pylon.

The IMPORTANT thing to remember is a call can not be overturned unless there is INDISPUTABLE proof the wrong call was made on the field.

That video does not show indisputable evidence the wrong call was made.

In fact like i said, I saw the ball move, but also saw Watkins regain control of the ball before it hit the pylon.

[Novacane]

I go back and forth. It had to stay however it was called on the field.

[JoeMama]

He had it as he crossed the goal line.

Even with it coming loose as he hit the pylon, it doesn't matter.

Touchdown.

[gebobs]

If we are going by the constraints on the officials, no...too close to call. If we are just going by opinion...fumble. He was bobbling it and made a mad swipe for the pylon in hopes that he could hit it before it came completely out.

[gebobs]

I am going to reverse my decision. Here is the best view of the moment the ball touched the pylon that I can find. It looks like he still has at least minimal control of the ball. The next frame shows the pylon has knocked it loose.

17099

Touchdown.

[TedMock]

I am going to reverse my decision. Here is the best view of the moment the ball touched the pylon that I can find. It looks like he still has at least minimal control of the ball. The next frame shows the pylon has knocked it loose.

17099

Touchdown.

Agreed. Full hand on the ball, fingers underneath. The call stands.

[Meathead]

he definitely lost control of the ball at one point. so the question is does he fully regain control before it hits the pylon. and i think that answer is no. he is trying to get control of the ball with his right hand, has just barely touched the ball with his left when he hits the pylon. personally i dont think that should be enough to count as 'control'. but hell im glad it worked out the way it did

[ServoBillieves]

If it was reviewed as all scoring plays are, and it was a touchdown then, then it's a TD in my book.

[Meathead]

on a day that had the most embarrassingly unacceptable replay review fail in the history of history i wouldnt be counting on the official ruling to make my personal decision

[better days]

he definitely lost control of the ball at one point. so the question is does he fully regain control before it hits the pylon. and i think that answer is no. he is trying to get control of the ball with his right hand, has just barely touched the ball with his left when he hits the pylon. personally i dont think that should be enough to count as 'control'. but hell im glad it worked out the way it did


You can think whatever you like, the FACT is you have no indisputable proof that you are right.

The call stands.

[gebobs]

he definitely lost control of the ball at one point.
Yeah, I think that's kind of the way it happened.


so the question is does he fully regain control before it hits the pylon
Maybe not. But he certainly doesn't lose control enough to say it was a fumble. Clearly, the pylon finishes the play here and knocks the ball out.

Just for ****s and giggles, here is a screen shot progression...

17100

[gebobs]

You can think whatever you like, the FACT is you have no indisputable proof that you are right.

The call stands.

Certainly. But what do YOU think happened? Forget about indisputable proof. What's your opinion?

[better days]

on a day that had the most embarrassingly unacceptable replay review fail in the history of history i wouldnt be counting on the official ruling to make my personal decision

The Bills would have won that game even if that TD did not count.

And if Miami were awarded that ball, it is more likely the Bills would have had a safety down there than the Fins getting points.

[better days]

Certainly. But what do YOU think happened? Forget about indisputable proof. What's your opinion?

I already said, I think the ball moved earlier, but that Watkins had control of the ball before it touched the pylon.

[gebobs]

The Bills would have won that game even if that TD did not count.

And if Miami were awarded that ball, it is more likely the Bills would have had a safety down there than the Fins getting points.

No. They would have had the ball 1-10 on the 20. Touchback. If they ride the momentum shift and score a TD, they are in the lead.

[better days]

No. They would have had the ball 1-10 on the 20. Touchback. If they ride the momentum shift and score a TD, they are in the lead.

Disagree, the defense would have been fired up as would be the crowd.

Most likely case the Bills get the ball back on downs, but I think a safety would be more likely than the Fins scoring.

[HHURRICANE]

It was a fumble...end of story.

If roles were reversed we'd be *****ing about that play all week.

Bottom line: it's nice to be getting these calls for a change. Just like Chandler's hold that let EJ walk into the endzone last week.

[gebobs]

Disagree, the defense would have been fired up as would be the crowd.
Disagree about what? I didn't say WHEN, I said IF.


Most likely case the Bills get the ball back on downs, but I think a safety would be more likely than the Fins scoring.
There was no chance of a safety. The Dolphins would have gotten the ball on their 20.

[Meathead]

Certainly. But what do YOU think happened? Forget about indisputable proof. What's your opinion?

people are often so annoying when it comes to stuff like this

yeah, we KNOW what the refs called. yeah, we KNOW the play was supposed to be automatically reviewed by booth officials. the game is over, the bills lose nothing if you express a contrary opinion here

yet ask the question and suddenly everybody turns into sergeant schultz

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31MRscQCCGL.jpg

[better days]

It was a fumble...end of story.

If roles were reversed we'd be *****ing about that play all week.

Bottom line: it's nice to be getting these calls for a change. Just like Chandler's hold that let EJ walk into the endzone last week.

Disagree, Watkins had control before the ball touched the pylon.

[Ed]

There's really no way to conclusively say if he's holding the ball or not with his right hand just before it hits the pylon. The ruling on the field would have had to stand either way they called it.

[Meathead]

It was a fumble...end of story.

If roles were reversed we'd be *****ing about that play all week.

after i saw the replay for the first time im standing in front of the tv going 'kick the pat ..., kick the damn pat now ..., WOULD YOU KICK THE ****ING PAT FOR DOGS SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!'

[Meathead]

There's really no way to conclusively say if he's holding the ball or not with his right hand just before it hits the pylon. The ruling on the field would have had to stand either way they called it.

once again, the question isnt what the refs called or what the replay process is, the question is do YOU think it was a fumble

[better days]

Disagree about what? I didn't say WHEN, I said IF.


There was no chance of a safety. The Dolphins would have gotten the ball on their 20.

In the first half, the Bills pushed the Fins back 32 yards! 20 yards is NOTHING.

First Down: False Start. 5 yd penalty.

Still First Down on the 15 yd line: Tannehill dropped for a 8 yd loss.

Second Down on the 7 yd line: False start 5 yd penalty.

Still second Down on the 2 yd line: Kyle drops Tannehill for a Safety.

[Novacane]

once again, the question isnt what the refs called or what the replay process is, the question is do YOU think it was a fumble


That's the point. For me I'm not sure. At first look I thought it was a touchback. Like you I was screaming hurry up and kick the damn pat! After watching again and again it looks like Sammy squeezed the bobbling ball with his right hand an instant before it hit the pylon and came out again. Is that enough to re-establish possession? I don't know. If the call had gone against us I really couldn't of *****ed about it.

[gebobs]

In the first half, the Bills pushed the Fins back 32 yards! 20 yards is NOTHING.
You think the Bills chances of pushing the Dolphins back from the 20 to get a safety is more likely than there scoring a touchdown.

That is completely asinine. Just be a man and admit you thought the ball would be placed inside the 1 yard line. No one in the world is going to believe you actually think a safety from the 20 was more likely than a Dolphins TD. Only a moron would think that.

[Historian]

Who give a ****?

We won.

On to the Chargers.

[better days]

You think the Bills chances of pushing the Dolphins back from the 20 to get a safety is more likely than there scoring a touchdown.

That is completely asinine. Just be a man and admit you thought the ball would be placed inside the 1 yard line. No one in the world is going to believe you actually think a safety from the 20 was more likely than a Dolphins TD. Only a moron would think that.

I know the ball would be placed on the 20 if it were ruled a touchback, and someone even commented on that before you & I started this discussion.

My point was the Fins were NOT going to score even if they got the ball back.

[jimmifli]

I thought it was a fumble touchback. I even think there's enough evidence to overturn it.

I also think this is a case where a huge call went in our favour and we barely talked about it for two days. When these calls go against us the typical fan reaction is that the NFL is rigged and the Bills ALWAYS get hosed on these kinds of calls. We don't, we just don't remember these calls as the reason we won, but we always remember them as the reason we lost.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

after i saw the replay for the first time im standing in front of the tv going 'kick the pat ..., kick the damn pat now ..., WOULD YOU KICK THE ****ING PAT FOR DOGS SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!'

You can't out run an official review by running the next play iiuc. The on field ref won't signal ready to play until the booth clears him to.

[Ingtar33]

looked like a fumble to me. but it was close enough i'm not sure i would have overturned the on field call if i was in charge of a replay review. He clearly bobbles it on the 2, i'm not sure he ever regains control of it, he stretches out for the goal line and it looks like the ball it out of his hand PRIOR to hitting the pilon (almost like he threw the ball over the goal line). The positioning of his hand makes it impossible to judge if he had control when the ball crosses the goal line. the defender's arm also makes it impossible to tell if he ever regains control over the football after the bobble on the 2 yard line.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

as you can see from these boards, im not a complainer (except about the rirs in prs). i havent *****ed about anything and loved this win

but being completely honest here, that ball was moving before he tried to get it into two hands so he could reach for the pylon. further, its very questionable whether he ever got full control of the ball the second time before jamming it onto the pylon, and honestly i dont think he did

if im a ref and get a look at that replay i think im reversing the td and giving the fish the ball at the twenty

http://www.buffalobills.com/video/videos/Sammy_Watkins_first_NFL_touchdown/2380d27d-b8cb-48da-a1d5-2a9d4e9794b7

I think a question of equal importance is "did Don Beebe really score a TD against Houston or did he step out of bounds before making the catch?"

[Ed]

once again, the question isnt what the refs called or what the replay process is, the question is do YOU think it was a fumble
I understand the question, but my answer is I'm not sure and I don't think there's any way for anyone to really tell either way. All we're doing is guessing. We've seen Watkins make some impressive one handed plays so it's not like he couldn't have grabbed it and had control with one hand before it hits the pylon. From the still shot and replay it looks like his hand is holding the ball, but it's impossible to know if he truly had control. We know the ball comes loose and then he gets his hand on it before hitting the pylon. I'm not really sure about anything else, but we're all biased Bills fans, so it's not hard to believe he had control.

[Night Train]

Borderline.

[ICRockets]

Either way, what a heads-up play by Sammy. Cool under pressure, he made the effort not only to regain control of the ball, but to hit the pylon. That's some excellent awareness for a rookie in his 2nd game.

[chernobylwraiths]

I'm not sure either, but I thought it could have been called a fumble.

If he reaches out with the ball in one hand, that would seem to me as he has clearly reestablished possesion. And, as long as the skin of the ball has hit the goal line while in his possesion, then it is a TD. If the ball is hitting the pilon like it has in this case, it has already crossed the goal line as the ball clearly hit the inside of the pilon.

[Mad Bomber]

Everyone is talking about "the ball touching the pylon". As soon as the tip of the ball breaks the plane of the goal line it's a touchdown. It touched the pylon after it had already broken the plane.

Touchdown.

[Ed]

Either way, what a heads-up play by Sammy. Cool under pressure, he made the effort not only to regain control of the ball, but to hit the pylon. That's some excellent awareness for a rookie in his 2nd game.
What's crazy though is if it is a fumble and it doesn't touch the pylon it's still the Bills ball inside the 1. If it touches the pylon it's Fins ball at the 20. I've never really liked/understood the rule that if you fumble out of the endzone it's a turnover, but if you fumble out of bounds you keep the ball.

[ZAZusmc03]

I thought it was a fumble, but I was glad that it didn't get overturned. About time we get the bounce our way.

[Mad Bomber]

"Touched the pylon" is irrelevant in this case. The only time touching the pylon matters is if you touch the front of the pylon, as it represents the front plane of the end zone. In Sammy's case, the whole ball was inside the end zone and it touched the pylon from within the end zone. The play was a touchdown the moment the first part of the ball crossed the plane of the goal line, not when it touched the pylon. The ball appeared to come out of his hand after it had crossed the plane.

[RedEyE]

The officials review eveyr score and this one was no exception. I like the call on the field as it sends the decision to the booth for review. If the officials decide otherwise they overturn the call and place the ball on the 1/2 yard line.

But if the refs do not call that a TD on the field, then the review is at the discretion of the Buffalo Bills. I don't think the Bills would have thrown the red flag. Not enough in the video to take that chance and with the long pause and game stoppage, you gamble on deflating the momentum on the field.

To be quite honest with you guys it is nice to finally have a couple of calls go our way. Especially at home. There have been too many times in the past that that call would instantly have been ruled in favor of the Dolphins.

[gebobs]

My point was the Fins were NOT going to score even if they got the ball back.
That a nice opinion but what's not opinion is the relative likelihood of safeties and touchdowns. While a Dolphins touchdown on the ensuing drive was not a sure thing, the chances of a safety by the Bills would have been exceedingly unlikely if not infinitesimal.

[justasportsfan]

If it was a dolphin player, it's a fumble. Since it's Sammy it's a TD. Sheez peeps!

[gebobs]

"Touched the pylon" is irrelevant in this case. The only time touching the pylon matters is if you touch the front of the pylon, as it represents the front plane of the end zone. In Sammy's case, the whole ball was inside the end zone and it touched the pylon from within the end zone. The play was a touchdown the moment the first part of the ball crossed the plane of the goal line, not when it touched the pylon. The ball appeared to come out of his hand after it had crossed the plane.

And there's the rub. To me it looked like the ball had been coming out even before the pylon. If you look at the frame the instant it hits the pylon, it looks like his hand is on the ball. But what no one can tell is if he's in control or if the ball is just hanging there due to momentum. The next frame, the pylon hits the ball and it's out. Again, no way to overturn. Can't fault the officials on the field and the replay officials called it right.

But just giving my honest opinion of what I think happened. The Fins DB reaches around with his right arm to tackle. This jars the ball loose a bit. The DB's other arm has Sammy's own left arm tied up so he has only option: make a mad swipe for the pylon and hope it doesn't come completely out before he hits it.

[Mr. Pink]

It was a fumble.

But it's nice to get that type of call in the Bills favor isn't it?

[better days]

The fact neither side had 100% of the vote is proof positive that at best the evidence is inconclusive, therefore the TD stands because that was the call on the field.

[YardRat]

The TD should have stood because the replay was inconclusive, however I think he lost control of the ball before crossing the plane and it certainly could have been called a fumble.

That being said...tough ****...after a decade and a half of watching those calls go against us it's about time we got a little love.

[Woodman]

Final Score 29-10 Bills!!

[yordad]

I am a ref. And it was a TD. He lost it. Regained it. Reached out. And he lost it again as he hit the pylon.

[Goobylal]

I am a ref. And it was a TD. He lost it. Regained it. Reached out. And he lost it again as he hit the pylon.
This exactly. People seem to think that the ball being lost near or because of the pylon makes it a fumble. It doesn't. The ball crossed the white endzone line before that happened, therefore it was a TD.

[OpIv37]

It may not have been a touchdown.

If not, it's a tiny drop in the barrel to repay us for the ****ing Music City mother****ing Mirage.

[Thurmal]

It may not have been a touchdown.

If not, it's a tiny drop in the barrel to repay us for the ****ing Music City mother****ing Mirage.

Or even the fact that Miami's TD on the prior drive would've never happened had the officials called that obvious false start on Miami the 4th down they "converted."

[OpIv37]

Or even the fact that Miami's TD on the prior drive would've never happened had the officials called that obvious false start on Miami the 4th down they "converted."

That call was so obvious that I had time to jump off the couch and point at him before the ball was snapped. I don't think I've ever seen a missed call as blatant as that.

[Meathead]

You can't out run an official review by running the next play iiuc. The on field ref won't signal ready to play until the booth clears him to.

true but the ref can also hold play if a question is raised and if the ball hasnt been kicked yet the play is at risk. im sure the offense knows that and was right there ready. it just seemed like forever after seeing that replay right afterwards. its like 'cmon cmon you bastards cmon'

[Meathead]

i noticed too that ppl around bflo didnt talk about it afterwards. it was kinda weird

i figure theres three possible reasons:

1. like jimmi said, ppl only remember the bad, like all the times that stuff goes against the bills. but really theres as much that goes good for them, just like all teams. just remembering the bad is kind of funked up but we do it all the time, not just with sports either

2. the announcers really didnt make much of an issue at the time so perhaps ppl just didnt really notice or pay attention

3. good ole fashioned denial. ppl want to feel good about the win, the apparently dominating win. to acknowledge a possible massive break for the bills makes it feel much less awesome of a win

idk which it is, maybe all of them. but a reversal there would have been a seismic earthquake of a momentum shift that threatened the entire game for the bills. not surprising maybe that ppl clammed up about it lol

[bleve]

Holy over analysis Batman.

I try to be objective, the Wycheck throw was a lateral. This was a TD. No question.

He throws the ball at the pylon. Pylons can not cause a fumble, the moment the hand/ball/pylon were connected **angelic music** Touchdown Buffalo!

[Goobylal]

i noticed too that ppl around bflo didnt talk about it afterwards. it was kinda weird

i figure theres three possible reasons:

1. like jimmi said, ppl only remember the bad, like all the times that stuff goes against the bills. but really theres as much that goes good for them, just like all teams. just remembering the bad is kind of funked up but we do it all the time, not just with sports either

2. the announcers really didnt make much of an issue at the time so perhaps ppl just didnt really notice or pay attention

3. good ole fashioned denial. ppl want to feel good about the win, the apparently dominating win. to acknowledge a possible massive break for the bills makes it feel much less awesome of a win

idk which it is, maybe all of them. but a reversal there would have been a seismic earthquake of a momentum shift that threatened the entire game for the bills. not surprising maybe that ppl clammed up about it lol
Not sure how much of a "massive break" it was, considering it still would have been 16-10 and the Dols didn't score the rest of the game, while the Bills tacked-on another 6 points.

[gebobs]

Not sure how much of a "massive break" it was, considering it still would have been 16-10 and the Dols didn't score the rest of the game, while the Bills tacked-on another 6 points.

Of course. No one's sure about that despite the fact the Dollies never scored again. Momentum is intangible. Could have swung either way and chances are as good if not better that it would have swung south.

[Goobylal]

Of course. No one's sure about that despite the fact the Dollies never scored again. Momentum is intangible. Could have swung either way and chances are as good if not better that it would have swung south.
The mo' was never leaving the Bills. Not on that day.

But it's moot since it was, in fact, a TD.

[gebobs]

The mo' was never leaving the Bills. Not on that day.

Delivered with conviction, if only without basis.


But it's moot since it was, in fact, a TD.

I see. So how some situation was ruled determines its reality.

The idea that OJ Simpson is a murderer is moot since he was never, in fact, convicted.

[Figster]

"Touched the pylon" is irrelevant in this case. The only time touching the pylon matters is if you touch the front of the pylon, as it represents the front plane of the end zone. In Sammy's case, the whole ball was inside the end zone and it touched the pylon from within the end zone. The play was a touchdown the moment the first part of the ball crossed the plane of the goal line, not when it touched the pylon. The ball appeared to come out of his hand after it had crossed the plane.

I agree, the pylon is a vertical representation of where the goal line starts and the goalline is already crossed when you hit the side of it.

I also believe the actual fumble doesn't start taking place until it the football loses contact with hand.

[gebobs]

I also believe the actual fumble doesn't start taking place until it the football loses contact with hand.

So it's not a fumble so long as the player still has part of his hand just touching the ball?

[Mercy]

TD

did they give us six points?

[Goobylal]

Delivered with conviction, if only without basis.
There is more basis for my statement than thinking the mo' was suddenly, and inexplicably, going to shift in the Dols' favor.


I see. So how some situation was ruled determines its reality.

The idea that OJ Simpson is a murderer is moot since he was never, in fact, convicted.
No, it has nothing to do with how it was ruled/ Although that corroborates what I saw considering it was called that way initially and then reviewed and upheld.

So it's not a fumble so long as the player still has part of his hand just touching the ball?
Okay, let's start with the basics. How is a TD scored? We'll go from there.

[bf1]

I think it was a fumble. Honestly I don't know how it didn't get overturned.

[gebobs]

There is more basis for my statement than thinking the mo' was suddenly, and inexplicably, going to shift in the Dols' favor.
More delivery with conviction and with the same amount of basis.

Although not quite as sure as death and taxes, momentum shifts happen in football all of the time.

Last week, the Giants had dug themselves out of a 10-0 hole and lead 14-10 going into the 4th quarter. The offense was looking effective. The defense was smothering the Cards. The crowd was energized. Then Ted Ginn returns a punt to the house, the Giants cough up the ensuing kickoff, and turn the ball over twice on subsequent drives.

Did you see the Packers-Jets game? The momentum shifts there was palpable. The crowd and the home team were in shock after Rodgers fumbled on the first play and all appeared lost after the Jets scored TDs on their first three possessions. I had the Packers in Survivor. I thought I was done. Then the Jets were driving for a fourth TD deep in Packer territory and Geno throws a pick. The crowd goes ape**** and the Jets get shutout going away.

The Niners were rolling along 17-0 when Cutler executes a nice two-minute drill to get a score in just before the half ends. Kaepernick has one drive for a FG in the second half and then starts tossing picks which the Bears convert into TDs. Game over.


Okay, let's start with the basics. How is a TD scored? We'll go from there.

All I was looking for was some clarification of dog's post which said a "fumble doesn't start taking place until ... the football loses contact with hand."

I think I can handle the basics of football, but thanks.

[Meathead]

I also believe the actual fumble doesn't start taking place until it the football loses contact with hand.

well we know this is not correct but trying to get clarification on what exactly is a fumble by looking up the rules wasnt any help at all. i tried looking online for the official definition of an nfl fumble and the results were surprisingly vague. all i could find are relatively generic explanations about losing control that dont talk any specifics about hands on the ball, etc

the best i could find is this from the nfl guide for statisticians:


A fumble is an act (other than pass or kick) that results in a player's loss of possession of the ball or his failure to handle a ball which has been properly centered to him. Exceptions: No fumble shall be charged (a) on an attempted point-after-touchdown, or (b) on a momentary bobble of the ball at the point of reception if in the scorer’s judgment the bobble had no effect on the continuing action, provided that the ball has not touched the ground or another player.
http://www.nflgsis.com/gsis/documentation/stadiumguides/guide_for_statisticians.pdf

not much help

but by watching a gajillion replays we can tell how refs generally interpret a fumble. as soon as the ball starts turning in his hands its a fumble. we see this when a carriers knee is two inches from the ground but if the ball has started moving and then comes loose after the knee touches its still a fumble. so you can have two hands around the ball and if its made to turn by something other than his own hands then its the start of a fumble. he must then regain control before it stops being a fumble

now the question is what is 'control'? frankly im not sure. we know a player can control the ball with one hand, you can run into the endzone with the ball raised in one hand and its still a td. but when exactly does it transition to control when you only have one hand on the ball?

i would think that definition should NOT include a scoop or a cradle where the ball isnt really being gripped, its just being held in the hand by gravity or centrifugal force, which appears to be the case here

but without a firm definition of exactly what control really is, we are pretty much screwed out of getting a definitive answer

[gebobs]

now the question is what is 'control'? frankly im not sure. we know a player can control the ball with one hand, you can run into the endzone with the ball raised in one hand and its still a td. but when exactly does it transition to control when you only have one hand on the ball?

i would think that definition should NOT include a scoop or a cradle where the ball isnt really being gripped, its just being held in the hand by gravity or centrifugal force, which appears to be the case here

but without a firm definition of exactly what control really is, we are pretty much screwed out of getting a definitive answer

To paraphrase Potter Stewart: I shall not today attempt further to define a fumble; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

[stuckincincy]

To paraphrase Potter Stewart: I shall not today attempt further to define a fumble; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

:nsfw:

[Figster]

well we know this is not correct but trying to get clarification on what exactly is a fumble by looking up the rules wasnt any help at all. i tried looking online for the official definition of an nfl fumble and the results were surprisingly vague. all i could find are relatively generic explanations about losing control that dont talk any specifics about hands on the ball, etc

the best i could find is this from the nfl guide for statisticians:

A fumble is an act (other than pass or kick) that results in a player's loss of possession of the ball or his failure to handle a ball which has been properly centered to him. Exceptions: No fumble shall be charged (a) on an attempted point-after-touchdown, or (b) on a momentary bobble of the ball at the point of reception if in the scorer’s judgment the bobble had no effect on the continuing action, provided that the ball has not touched the ground or another player.
http://www.nflgsis.com/gsis/documentation/stadiumguides/guide_for_statisticians.pdf

not much help

but by watching a gajillion replays we can tell how refs generally interpret a fumble. as soon as the ball starts turning in his hands its a fumble. we see this when a carriers knee is two inches from the ground but if the ball has started moving and then comes loose after the knee touches its still a fumble. so you can have two hands around the ball and if its made to turn by something other than his own hands then its the start of a fumble. he must then regain control before it stops being a fumble

now the question is what is 'control'? frankly im not sure. we know a player can control the ball with one hand, you can run into the endzone with the ball raised in one hand and its still a td. but when exactly does it transition to control when you only have one hand on the ball?

i would think that definition should NOT include a scoop or a cradle where the ball isnt really being gripped, its just being held in the hand by gravity or centrifugal force, which appears to be the case here

but without a firm definition of exactly what control really is, we are pretty much screwed out of getting a definitive answer

clearly you have to lose posession of the ball before it becomes a fumble. If its in your hand and your holding it, wouldn't the actual speration from the hand determine when its a fumble?

[Goobylal]

More delivery with conviction and with the same amount of basis.

Although not quite as sure as death and taxes, momentum shifts happen in football all of the time.

Last week, the Giants had dug themselves out of a 10-0 hole and lead 14-10 going into the 4th quarter. The offense was looking effective. The defense was smothering the Cards. The crowd was energized. Then Ted Ginn returns a punt to the house, the Giants cough up the ensuing kickoff, and turn the ball over twice on subsequent drives.

Did you see the Packers-Jets game? The momentum shifts there was palpable. The crowd and the home team were in shock after Rodgers fumbled on the first play and all appeared lost after the Jets scored TDs on their first three possessions. I had the Packers in Survivor. I thought I was done. Then the Jets were driving for a fourth TD deep in Packer territory and Geno throws a pick. The crowd goes ape**** and the Jets get shutout going away.

The Niners were rolling along 17-0 when Cutler executes a nice two-minute drill to get a score in just before the half ends. Kaepernick has one drive for a FG in the second half and then starts tossing picks which the Bears convert into TDs. Game over.
Your basis is 1 game out of 32 where the team had the momentum the entire game until the 4th quarter? Okay. We'll just agree to disagree. Never mind that the Dols only got to within 6 points because of yet another missed false start.


All I was looking for was some clarification of dog's post which said a "fumble doesn't start taking place until ... the football loses contact with hand."

I think I can handle the basics of football, but thanks.
It wasn't a fumble because the ball crossed the vertical plane of the goal line first. Once it does that, the play is over, a TD is scored, and anything that comes after it is immaterial.

[gebobs]

Your basis is 1 game out of 32 where the team had the momentum the entire game until the 4th quarter?
No, three games out of 16. Momentum shifts happen regularly. QED.

Baseless assertions such as "The momentum of the game was never going to shift in the Dolphins favor" mean nothing.


Never mind that the Dols only got to within 6 points because of yet another missed false start.

The officials are part of the game just like everything else and certainly can influence momentum.


It wasn't a fumble because the ball crossed the vertical plane of the goal line first. Once it does that, the play is over, a TD is scored, and anything that comes after it is immaterial.
No kidding. The question is what happened BEFORE the ball hit the pylon. Specifically, did Watkins have control of the ball. There is no objective fact to the matter. I'm not sure Watkins knows. But there is enough to be seen from the replay to introduce some doubt.

We all know how it was ruled and we all know that the ruling was upheld. IMHO, the replay officials made the right call...no incontrovertible evidence to overturn. And forget about the officials on the field. If we can't say definitively one way or the other after looking at the replay again and again in slow motion, it's unlikely that they had a better view seeing it once at full speed.

[gebobs]

clearly you have to lose posession of the ball before it becomes a fumble. If its in your hand and your holding it, wouldn't the actual speration from the hand determine when its a fumble?
Not exactly. What if when Spiller was showboating on his return TD, instead he decided to hold the ball out in front of himself as he crossed the 10 yard line, palm up. To the horror of Bills fans watching, we see the ball begin to roll off his hand. Replays show clearly that as the ball breaks the plane, it is perched precariously on the tip of his middle finger.

Though the ball is still touching his hand, does he have possession? No, I think not.

[stuckincincy]

Not exactly. What if when Spiller was showboating on his return TD, instead he decided to hold the ball out in front of himself as he crossed the 10 yard line, palm up. To the horror of Bills fans watching, we see the ball begin to roll off his hand. Replays show clearly that as the ball breaks the plane, it is perched precariously on the tip of his middle finger.

Though the ball is still touching his hand, does he have possession? No, I think not.

I suppose. But wouldn't be dumb to call such a fumble? Grind down a fine effort down to such a lever - find fault at the atomic level?

[Buffalogic]

It was a fumble and should have been a touchback. But it wasn't called that way so it is a touchdown and it will always be a touchdown. Good job Sammy, just hold onto the ball a weeeee bit longer.

[Goobylal]

No, three games out of 16. Momentum shifts happen regularly. QED.

Baseless assertions such as "The momentum of the game was never going to shift in the Dolphins favor" mean nothing.

The officials are part of the game just like everything else and certainly can influence momentum.
Okay, it was highly unlikely to shift. Based on just (alright, I'll give you) 3 out of 32 games.


No kidding. The question is what happened BEFORE the ball hit the pylon. Specifically, did Watkins have control of the ball. There is no objective fact to the matter. I'm not sure Watkins knows. But there is enough to be seen from the replay to introduce some doubt.

We all know how it was ruled and we all know that the ruling was upheld. IMHO, the replay officials made the right call...no incontrovertible evidence to overturn. And forget about the officials on the field. If we can't say definitively one way or the other after looking at the replay again and again in slow motion, it's unlikely that they had a better view seeing it once at full speed.
He definitely had control of it. After Grimes jarred it loose, he trapped the ball against his chest and then extended it to get it over the goalline. Without control of it, the ball doesn't go exactly where his hand goes. And had it been ruled a fumble, I'd have challenged and expected it to be overturned because the ball traveled with his hand as he extended it.

[gebobs]

Okay, it was highly unlikely to shift. Based on just (alright, I'll give you) 3 out of 32 games.
LOL...I just picked three games that had good examples. There are momentum shifts of varying magnitude in every game. Are you even more clueless about football than politics? Is it possible?

Anyone that has ever played or watched the game knows that momentum is key and games swing on it all the time. To assert that some particular game, your game, is somehow immune to that reality is mere had waving. That's sort of par for the course for you so not so surprising.


He definitely had control of it. After Grimes jarred it loose, he trapped the ball against his chest and then extended it to get it over the goalline. Without control of it, the ball doesn't go exactly where his hand goes. And had it been ruled a fumble, I'd have challenged and expected it to be overturned because the ball traveled with his hand as he extended it.


You seem to think that strongly asserting opinions makes them fact. You should be a preacher.

[Goobylal]

LOL...I just picked three games that had good examples. There are momentum shifts of varying magnitude in every game. Are you even more clueless about football than politics? Is it possible?

Anyone that has ever played or watched the game knows that momentum is key and games swing on it all the time. To assert that some particular game, your game, is somehow immune to that reality is mere had waving. That's sort of par for the course for you so not so surprising.
Maybe we should do a poll on it? But no, you'd conveniently ignore/dismiss it, like you do polls about a certain special someone.


You seem to think that strongly asserting opinions makes them fact. You should be a preacher.
It's not an opinion. It's called observation and understanding physics. Something which you can't comprehend.

[Figster]

Not exactly. What if when Spiller was showboating on his return TD, instead he decided to hold the ball out in front of himself as he crossed the 10 yard line, palm up. To the horror of Bills fans watching, we see the ball begin to roll off his hand. Replays show clearly that as the ball breaks the plane, it is perched precariously on the tip of his middle finger.

Though the ball is still touching his hand, does he have possession? No, I think not.

This was a bang, bang play, he had a posession and a split second later lost his grip, and as previously posted the pylon is a vertical reprsentation of the goalline which he had crossed before this happened IMO.

[gebobs]

Maybe we should do a poll on it? But no, you'd conveniently ignore/dismiss it, like you do polls about a certain special someone.
Maybe you should just nut up and admit you were wrong. Thinking a safety was more likely than a Dolphins TD is asinine and stupid.


It's not an opinion. It's called observation and understanding physics. Something which you can't comprehend.
Could you please learn me some physics, perfesser? LOL...I've forgotten more about physics than you'll ever know.

[stuckincincy]

Maybe you should just nut up and admit you were wrong. Thinking a safety was more likely than a Dolphins TD is asinine and stupid.


Could you please learn me some physics, perfesser? LOL...I've forgotten more about physics than you'll ever know.

I tried to cook up a dot product joke but was unsuccessful...

[Goobylal]

Maybe you should just nut up and admit you were wrong. Thinking a safety was more likely than a Dolphins TD is asinine and stupid.
What? Who the hell said anything about a safety? If the play had been (incorrectly) ruled a touchback, it would have been 16-10 and the Dols would have gotten the ball at the 20. Since they didn't score a single point after that play, the momentum actually never shifted. Maybe it might have, but what happened is it didn't. So there's nothing for me to admit I was wrong about.

Could you please learn me some physics, perfesser? LOL...I've forgotten more about physics than you'll ever know.
It's obvious you've forgotten a lot about physics. But don't pretend you know how much I still remember.

[yordad]

Seriously... I am a ref. This is easy. He extended his hand w the ball in it. Not hard. That is posession. He lost it when he hit the pylon. That is a TD. Gesh.

[gebobs]

At any rate, I think it's fair to say the rush to PAT was a bit odd considering. I just watched the first three quarters again. I tried to watch that play and the ensuing replays from a Dolphins fan perspective. They showed a replay with a great view but his hand is moving too fast to see anything clearly. But if I was a Dollies fan, I'd be screaming fumble. And then they cut away and the Bills are lining up to kick. It was surprising.

That CBS officiating analyst is pretty lame.

[gebobs]

Another thing I recalled having watched the game again is just how precarious the lead was when the fumble happened. Though the Spiller return quenched much of the momentum the Dolphins got after that amazing one-handed TD by Wallace, the Bills still were 0-fer-the-red zone, the offense had not been on the field at all the entire 3rd quarter prior to that drive, and the Dollies had ripped off two totaling 11 minutes of possession.

The Bills shoot another blank and turn the ball over in the process, the game could have easily gotten ugly for us. Instead, they went punt, downs, muff, downs, int. Loverly.

[Figster]

The rule itself should be changed IMO.

If the Offense on the field is the last team to have possession of the football can anyone give me any logical reason why the football is given to the opposing team.

It makes no sense...

[Meathead]

Another thing I recalled having watched the game again is just how precarious the lead was when the fumble happened. Though the Spiller return quenched much of the momentum the Dolphins got after that amazing one-handed TD by Wallace, the Bills still were 0-fer-the-red zone, the offense had not been on the field at all the entire 3rd quarter prior to that drive, and the Dollies had ripped off two totaling 11 minutes of possession.

The Bills shoot another blank and turn the ball over in the process, the game could have easily gotten ugly for us.

exactly. thats why it was such a huge freakin play, and would have been an even huger play if it had been called a fumble and given to the fish at the twenty. im happy with the call but thats now how i woulda called it. so whew

[better days]

At any rate, I think it's fair to say the rush to PAT was a bit odd considering. I just watched the first three quarters again. I tried to watch that play and the ensuing replays from a Dolphins fan perspective. They showed a replay with a great view but his hand is moving too fast to see anything clearly. But if I was a Dollies fan, I'd be screaming fumble. And then they cut away and the Bills are lining up to kick. It was surprising.

That CBS officiating analyst is pretty lame.

They could not kick the PAT until the play was reviewed, it was a quick review.

I have TIVO which has a great slow motion feature. I slowed the play down that was shown on game rewind & you could see #21 Brent Grimes get his hand in there to jar the ball loose.

Watkins got control of the ball again before it hit the pylon.

The best real time view I saw along with sounds of the game was on Inside the NFL on Showtime & NFL Network.

That had a great view of Watkins hand with the ball in it as it hit the pylon.

[Goobylal]

They could not kick the PAT until the play was reviewed, it was a quick review.

I have TIVO which has a great slow motion feature. I slowed the play down that was shown on game rewind & you could see #21 Brent Grimes get his hand in there to jar the ball loose.

Watkins got control of the ball again before it hit the pylon.

The best real time view I saw along with sounds of the game was on Inside the NFL on Showtime & NFL Network.

That had a great view of Watkins hand with the ball in it as it hit the pylon.
This. And surprisingly, not a lot of Miami fans had a problem with the call. I'm figuring that's because a) they know it was the right one +/- b) it wouldn't have made a difference to the outcome either way.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The rule itself should be changed IMO.

If the Offense on the field is the last team to have possession of the football can anyone give me any logical reason why the football is given to the opposing team.

It makes no sense...

The touchback rule? The point of the game is to maintain possession of the ball into the endzone, if it gets fumbled forwards across the goal line and out of play, why should the offense be rewarded with retaining possession?

[Goobylal]

The touchback rule? The point of the game is to maintain possession of the ball into the endzone, if it gets fumbled forwards across the goal line and out of play, why should the offense be rewarded with retaining possession?
Yeah, not sure it should be changed. I mean, where would you spot the ball?

[yordad]

You would spot it at the 20, and the rule is actually likely to be changed. It might be the dumbest one in sports.

[Goobylal]

You would spot it at the 20, and the rule is actually likely to be changed. It might be the dumbest one in sports.
So the team that fumbled the ball gets it back, but at the opponent's 20? Or their own? And has there been any talk about changing it?

[swiper]

http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/photo_galleries/630x536/DeLamielleure_Joe-Bills3_630.jpg

[yordad]

So the team that fumbled the ball gets it back, but at the opponent's 20? Or their own? And has there been any talk about changing it?The opponents 20. And yes, there have been talks of changing it.

[yordad]

Here is an example of someone talking about it....

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/16/worst-rule-in-football-robs-possession-from-the-bucs/

The talk I have heard on a high school level.

[gebobs]

They could not kick the PAT until the play was reviewed, it was a quick review.
That's the point. It was too quick. I'm not saying they made the wrong call, but it just seemed incongruous. Here you had a critical touchdown and a controversial result. And the PAT was kicked faster than if it was a Jerome Bettis slam through the line 5 deep into the end zone from a half yard out.

[gebobs]

So the team that fumbled the ball gets it back, but at the opponent's 20? Or their own? And has there been any talk about changing it?

No. The opposing team gets the ball.

[JoeMama]

How much trifling, unnecessary micro-analysis is needed for this thread?

Watkins got in for the TD. End of story.

[gebobs]

How much trifling, unnecessary micro-analysis is needed for this thread?

Watkins got in for the TD. End of story.

Well, with all due respect, if that was all we were discussing, I would agree. If you don't care to discuss the hypothetical if it went the other way or to give your opinion on whether he actually had the ball, then unsubscribe from the thread.

And if you don't like trifling micro-analysis, good grief, how can you stand it in any of these forums? It's the rule.

[Goobylal]

I looked at the play again and it wasn't the pylon that knocked the ball loose: it was Luis Delmas' knee. But again, that was (just barely) after the ball crossed the goalline. A frame-by-frame analysis like the NFL would have would be able to determine this.

BTW, I looked at a couple Dols message boards and outside of a smattering of fans thinking it was a fumble, the majority didn't see it that way and/or didn't think it would have mattered in the outcome.

[gebobs]

BTW, I looked at a couple Dols message boards and outside of a smattering of fans thinking it was a fumble, the majority didn't see it that way and/or didn't think it would have mattered in the outcome.
Sure ya did. Sure, I totally believe you did that. Makes perfect sense!

[gebobs]

http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?83133-Mike-Carey-Explanation-on-Watkins-TD-Possible-Touchback

[Goobylal]

LOL! Your link just proved what I said.

[JoeMama]

Well, with all due respect, if that was all we were discussing, I would agree. If you don't care to discuss the hypothetical if it went the other way or to give your opinion on whether he actually had the ball, then unsubscribe from the thread.

And if you don't like trifling micro-analysis, good grief, how can you stand it in any of these forums? It's the rule.

Because I saw the play a hundred times now.

He was past the goal line before it looked like the ball was a little wobbly. By then, he was hitting the pylon.

Touchdown even before the pylon chatter. He passed the white line. Discussion over.

[JoeMama]

Besides, why would I want to sound like some ignorant Dolphins fan who doesn't understand what crossing the goal line means?

It's for the fishes.

I'm a man, not a fish.

[Meathead]

these two fish posts sum it up perfectly


I don't know but to me it was a pretty clear touchdown. Just because the ball jiggled a little bit in his hands doesn't mean possession has been reset to zero and the next person to officially possess the ball will have to demonstrate a football move in order to demonstrate possession. The ball jiggled in his hands a little at about the two yard line, he quickly got control of it and stuck the football out and it crossed the plane before being knocked out of his hands. At that point, when it got knocked out of his hands, that was finally an official fumble. But the ball had already crossed the plane so it didn't matter.


WHat I saw was this.

At the two yard line or so he is hit holding the ball in two hands. He loses possession completely and shifts it into one hand regaining possession. At this point it would have been a TD. However if you look closely as he tries to grip the ball with his one hand it slides. It begins sliding at about the half yard line and he never actually has it across the pylon.

i also saw the latter, but a lot of ppl see the former. and its funny bc those that see it one way have a hard time understanding how anybody can see it differently. lol. pretty weird. theres probably a prs lesson in there somewhere

and i dont think we will ever know the actual correct answer bc there simply isnt any way to tell if he ever really gets his hand(s) around the ball to regain control or not

[Figster]

these two fish posts sum it up perfectly





i also saw the latter, but a lot of ppl see the former. and its funny bc those that see it one way have a hard time understanding how anybody can see it differently. lol. pretty weird. theres probably a prs lesson in there somewhere

and i dont think we will ever know the actual correct answer bc there simply isnt any way to tell if he ever really gets his hand(s) around the ball to regain control or not

People see what they want to see, but the only thing that really matters is what the Officials see.

Officiating seen a TD,

end of story...

[Meathead]

well i saw a fumble and i sure as hell didnt want to see a fumble so im not sure about that theory

[better days]

well i saw a fumble and i sure as hell didnt want to see a fumble so im not sure about that theory

Well, in the first place your eyes deceive you. You might want to have your eyes checked by someone qualified.

In the second place there was nothing concrete to reverse the call on the field. PERIOD.

The play stands as called.

[Goobylal]

Not sure how anyone could see the ball starting to slide in his hand at the 1/2 yard line in any of the angles. I looked repeatedly and couldn't see it moving definitively until he hit Delmas' knee.

[gebobs]

LOL! Your link just proved what I said.
What you said: "BTW, I looked at a couple Dols message boards and outside of a smattering of fans thinking it was a fumble, the majority didn't see it that way and/or didn't think it would have mattered in the outcome."

There are far more than a "smattering" that think it was a fumble. The only one's arguing against that are the ones saying there was not enough evidence to overturn which is not the point.

Only one of them said it wouldn't have affected the outcome.

[better days]

Not sure how anyone could see the ball starting to slide in his hand at the 1/2 yard line in any of the angles. I looked repeatedly and couldn't see it moving definitively until he hit Delmas' knee.

Actually, Brent Grimes swiped at the ball with his hand & jarred it loose for a second. Watkins regained possession before it hit the pylon.

I watched in slow motion on my TIVO from game rewind.

Also, Inside the NFL had a camera in the end zone pointing towards the field which clearly showed the ball in Watkins hand when it hit the pylon.

But that was two games ago, don't know why we are still talking about that.

[gebobs]

Let's look at the players in that thread:

rdhstlr23 - The OP was wondering why there wasn't more review. On the fence as to whether it was a fumble.
Alex44 - Fumble, should have been reviewed more.
ckparrothead - TD. Did not think further review was warranted.
brandon27 - Fumble.
Disgustipate - Fumble.
vt_dolfan - Wonders why it would have been a touchback.
MrClean - Notes that all scoring plays are reviewed.
btfu149 - Fumble. Thought Watkins lost possession at the 1, but the play did not lose the game.
heylookatme - Fumble. Home job.
firedan - TD, but should have been reviewed more thoroughly.
Nappy Roots - On the fence, should have been reviewed more.
byroan - Brings up Harvin.
BigDogsHunt - Fumble, should have been reviewed more.
VManis -On the fence, should have been reviewed more.
Deerless Dice - Fumble, should have been reviewed more.
danmarino - More Harvin talk.
Sethdaddy8 - Fumble, should have been reviewed more.
cdnfinfan - Critical of Mike Carey's commentary.
PhinFan1968 - Fumble. Agrees with cdnphinfan.
VanDolPhan - Not enough evidence to overturn.
slickj101 - Fumble.
k-bayfinfan - Not enough evidence to overturn.
Galant - Quotes SI. Gives no opinion.

So let's tot that up, shall we?

Fumble? Yes - 10, No - 2, Unsure - 4, Maybe, but not enough to overturn - 2.

[gebobs]

But that was two games ago, don't know why we are still talking about that.

Just calling out Gumby's own declaration of "Mission Accomplished" from post #104.