Time for a new strategy in the search for a franchise QB

[Buffalogic]

You need a QB who can make plays and put points up to win in this league.

We haven't had a franchise QB in 15 years. That's a long time. Why not try something new and increase our odds of landing one?

2015 is a deep QB draft class. If/When EJ fails this year, we should draft a QB in the 2nd, 3rd, and possibly the 4th round in the upcoming draft. The rest of our team is more than adequate but the QB holds us back.

I understand the logistics of practicing and splitting reps would be challenging, but at the end of the day you should be able to identify a starter.

I would sacrifice three picks to try and end this eternal QB drought, because we have wasted a lot more than that over the last 15 years and we still don't have one. The old way hasn't worked for us, so let's try something new in this new passing NFL.

[Mace]

Washington is 14-21 since doing some of that. 2015 class looks a lot like the 2013 one to me.

[YardRat]

Thank the football gods you have zero access to the front office. Getting a 'franchise' QB is like hitting the lottery, and even those can't win a title without defense (see:Peyton Manning and Tom Brady).

Give me a guy who is capable, and can hit a big play or two at the right times, and surround him with a solid defense and offensive line and the chances of winning go up a lot more.

[gebobs]

We haven't had a franchise QB in 15 years.
Not as long as the 25 years it took to get one. Be patient.

[The Jokeman]

You need a QB who can make plays and put points up to win in this league.

We haven't had a franchise QB in 15 years. That's a long time. Why not try something new and increase our odds of landing one?

2015 is a deep QB draft class. If/When EJ fails this year, we should draft a QB in the 2nd, 3rd, and possibly the 4th round in the upcoming draft. The rest of our team is more than adequate but the QB holds us back.

I understand the logistics of practicing and splitting reps would be challenging, but at the end of the day you should be able to identify a starter.

I would sacrifice three picks to try and end this eternal QB drought, because we have wasted a lot more than that over the last 15 years and we still don't have one. The old way hasn't worked for us, so let's try something new in this new passing NFL.
3 picks? Yeah sorry no NFL is that foolish The first word in the term franchise QB is franchise. To me this team is as close at having the team that a QB could complete them but still feel we lack quality OGs and a starting TE. I say keep EJ in there until we can't win with him on a regular basis and to me winning 6 of 13 games is better than winning 6 of 16 we saw under the previous regimes. If we finish with a losing season under EJ I don't mind looking at a QB to develop behind EJ but it doesn't mean he's a replacement just a development guy. Kevin Hogan is a name to hold I mean let's face it when Cousins and Foles were drafted I doubt the Redskins and/or Eagles could truly say they thought they'd be the QBs leading there teams this year. Hell when Wilson was drafted the Seahawks spent big money Matt Flynn and made a big trade to acquire Charlie Whitehurst.

[BertSquirtgum]

The Bills could try and sign Robert Griffin III when he is cut after the season.

[RedEyE]

If it does indeed need to come down to a search:

1) Evaluate and re-sign all necessary Bills FAs to eliminate harsh turnover in other positions
2) Draft a QB in every round
3) Hold a massive 3 week QB camp (separate to all other camps)

[Buffalogic]

Washington is 14-21 since doing some of that. 2015 class looks a lot like the 2013 one to me.
They are finally going with the best QB on their roster and I expect that record to improve.

We won't have a problem identifying and starting the best player because none of the guys will be the de facto starter based on being a high profile first round pick.

[Buffalogic]

Thank the football gods you have zero access to the front office. Getting a 'franchise' QB is like hitting the lottery, and even those can't win a title without defense (see:Peyton Manning and Tom Brady).

Give me a guy who is capable, and can hit a big play or two at the right times, and surround him with a solid defense and offensive line and the chances of winning go up a lot more.It sounds simple enough, but we haven't done it in 15 years.

[Mace]

They are finally going with the best QB on their roster and I expect that record to improve.

We won't have a problem identifying and starting the best player because none of the guys will be the de facto starter based on being a high profile first round pick.

You can expect it sure, but I guess I really don't think they're going 12-4 to get them over a .500 track record for 3 years after doing it. If they don't you're looking at 3 years of losing records after their awesomeness in pulling the trigger on 2 qb's, one a marquee guy. I'll pass.

We're already pretty good at racking up losing records without blowing 3 more years thankyouverymuch.

[Buffalogic]

You can expect it sure, but I guess I really don't think they're going 12-4 to get them over a .500 track record for 3 years after doing it. If they don't you're looking at 3 years of losing records after their awesomeness in pulling the trigger on 2 qb's, one a marquee guy. I'll pass.

We're already pretty good at racking up losing records without blowing 3 more years thankyouverymuch.Washington doesn't have as good of a team as we do now and they haven't for the last three years. Also, they were forced to start RG3 because of his price tag, not because he was the best for the team. The bills won't have that same burden since we pick in the second and didn't trade the farm.

Blowing 3 years, I mean you can almost chalk that up already based on what we have done over this drought. QB's selected in the 2nd-4th have proven over and over again in the recent future that they can come in and lead their team to the playoffs. Let's maximize our chance to find one of those guys.

[Topas]

Drafting a QB in the 2nd third an fourth seems a bit overkill to me. But I am all for the Seatlle way. get as many QBs as possible and one will work out. Sign an old FA, that can at least start at the beginning, if required and then teaches the others, trade for an promising backup and draft an QB early. Rinse repeat every year (except the old FA signing) until you are successful. They hit already in the first year.

[Strongman]

I have zero faith in this organization's ability to develop a QB they drafted. They'd be better off finding one in free agency.

[swiper]

Thank the football gods you have zero access to the front office. Getting a 'franchise' QB is like hitting the lottery, and even those can't win a title without defense (see:Peyton Manning and Tom Brady).

Give me a guy who is capable, and can hit a big play or two at the right times, and surround him with a solid defense and offensive line and the chances of winning go up a lot more.

In his defense, he is just expressing frustration with OBD's inability to get a post-Jim Kelly QB. It's not exactly like hitting the lottery. Again: Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Kirk Cousins will ALL turn out to be franchise QBs and were all taken between Buddy Nix drafting TJ Graham and Nigel Bradham in the 2012 draft. So it's no lottery. It needs a competent GM. Which OBD has not had for many years. It takes planning and positioning by said competent GM. It CAN be done.

[YardRat]

I have zero faith in this organization's ability to develop a QB they drafted. They'd be better off finding one in free agency.

How long do you give an organization to 'develop a quarterback'?

Why don't we go through the histories of all of the NFL teams and see how many have drafted and developed 'franchise' QB's? I'll start you out with two easy ones...Denver and Kansas City...zero. Just look within our own division...The Jets? One, forty years ago. Miami? One, unless you count Griese, which is laughable. New England? Two? Bledsoe and Brady...unless again you want to count Grogan, and if so than you have to count Ferguson for Buffalo. Buffalo? Kelly, and maybe Fergie depending on your bar.

Getting a franchise quarterback is like catching lightning in a bottle, and drafting three in one season just means you're three times more likely to fail while the odds of snagging one don't go up.

[better days]

I would like to see the Bills draft one QB in the next draft.

The QB they think has the best potential.

[YardRat]

In his defense, he is just expressing frustration with OBD's inability to get a post-Jim Kelly QB. It's not exactly like hitting the lottery. Again: Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Kirk Cousins will ALL turn out to be franchise QBs and were all taken between Buddy Nix drafting TJ Graham and Nigel Bradham in the 2012 draft. So it's no lottery. It needs a competent GM. Which OBD has not had for many years. It takes planning and positioning by said competent GM. It CAN be done.

I'll refer you to my previous comment...Why don't we go through the histories of all of the NFL teams and see how many have drafted and developed 'franchise' QB's?

[trapezeus]

Status of QB class changes as we go through combine, etc. For me personlly, I'd wait until closer to draft to determine if deep or not

With no first, the bills need to stock up some more in other areas. I think QB will be a need, but just one pick this yr should go to QB. If we had a pick in each rd and may an extra in a round, I'd consider two QB picks, but not three

[Fletch]

I'll refer you to my previous comment...Why don't we go through the histories of all of the NFL teams and see how many have drafted and developed 'franchise' QB's?

Why don't you do that?

Post the results when you're finished. Should be interesting.

[Fletch]

I have zero faith in this organization's ability to develop a QB they drafted. They'd be better off finding one in free agency.

Problem with that is that so few good ones end up in free agency.

[Fletch]

In his defense, he is just expressing frustration with OBD's inability to get a post-Jim Kelly QB. It's not exactly like hitting the lottery. Again: Russell Wilson, Nick Foles, Kirk Cousins will ALL turn out to be franchise QBs and were all taken between Buddy Nix drafting TJ Graham and Nigel Bradham in the 2012 draft. So it's no lottery. It needs a competent GM. Which OBD has not had for many years. It takes planning and positioning by said competent GM. It CAN be done.

Here's an idea, how about drafting a QB that threw more than 23 TDs in a college season. Wilson threw 31, 28, and 33 in three seasons and less than 30 total INTs in the same seasons. Foles threw 28.

Manuel threw 18 and 23 his last two seasons, and on FSU that was underperforming in a big way.

Losman wasn't actually a bad try in drafting a QB, they don't always work out, but when you draft QBs that barely put up over 20 TDs in college, why is it smart to think that they're going to do better in the NFL.

So entirely to your point all it takes is a GM and personnel staff that realize that very simple little thing and understand a few others. This front office shoots from the hip all too often. Some teams may be able to take a player and develop him better but this team has no modern history of doing that with any position much less QB.

[better days]

I have zero faith in this organization's ability to develop a QB they drafted. They'd be better off finding one in free agency.

I doubt anyone better than Orton will become available in FA.

Unless EJ proves to be a franchise QB this year, I would like to see Orton, EJ & a rookie, what the hell, throw Tuel in there as well, fight it out for the starters job next year.

[trapezeus]

i think tuel is done with buffalo. and frankly, if we are looking to upgrade, let's upgrade. putting someone like tuel who is also aspiring to be a game manager isn't going to help.

[Buffalogic]

How long do you give an organization to 'develop a quarterback'?

Why don't we go through the histories of all of the NFL teams and see how many have drafted and developed 'franchise' QB's? I'll start you out with two easy ones...Denver and Kansas City...zero. Just look within our own division...The Jets? One, forty years ago. Miami? One, unless you count Griese, which is laughable. New England? Two? Bledsoe and Brady...unless again you want to count Grogan, and if so than you have to count Ferguson for Buffalo. Buffalo? Kelly, and maybe Fergie depending on your bar.

Getting a franchise quarterback is like catching lightning in a bottle, and drafting three in one season just means you're three times more likely to fail while the odds of snagging one don't go up.
This is just not true. Of course your odds would go up. We might whiff on all three, but that puts us where we have always been at. If one hits then it changes everything for us. It is the most important position in sports. Just pick a bunch of prospects and see which can be the best pro.

[Strongman]

How long do you give an organization to 'develop a quarterback'?

Why don't we go through the histories of all of the NFL teams and see how many have drafted and developed 'franchise' QB's? I'll start you out with two easy ones...Denver and Kansas City...zero. Just look within our own division...The Jets? One, forty years ago. Miami? One, unless you count Griese, which is laughable. New England? Two? Bledsoe and Brady...unless again you want to count Grogan, and if so than you have to count Ferguson for Buffalo. Buffalo? Kelly, and maybe Fergie depending on your bar.

Getting a franchise quarterback is like catching lightning in a bottle, and drafting three in one season just means you're three times more likely to fail while the odds of snagging one don't go up.

I was talking about the current organization, not historical ones which has little to no relevance. Specifically, I have zero faith that Marrone, Hackett, and Downing can develop a QB. My take on it is this: Marrone and Hackett are in over their heads just running the team and the offense at the NFL level. As far as Downing, there is nothing in his resume that suggests he is even qualified to be a QB coach. Look at his time in Detroit. It can be argued that Stafford regressed with Downing's "help" during his time in Detroit. Can you point to anything Downing has done in his career that makes you think he is good? Throw in the fact that we have a front office with a suspect track record when it comes to scouting and drafting and you have a formula for disaster.

Now if the Bills beefed up their scouting department and focused specifically on QBs, brought in a decent QB coach and offensive coordinator then doing what you suggest might be the way to go.

BTW, Jim Kelly was in the USFL for two years before coming here. We may have drafted him, but technically the Houston Gamblers developed him.

[better days]

i think tuel is done with buffalo. and frankly, if we are looking to upgrade, let's upgrade. putting someone like tuel who is also aspiring to be a game manager isn't going to help.

Tuel has a GOOD arm. Better than EJ IMO.

He is on the PS.

If he can learn to read defenses, I think he could be more than a game manager.

[swiper]

I'll refer you to my previous comment...Why don't we go through the histories of all of the NFL teams and see how many have drafted and developed 'franchise' QB's?

There's a long list of franchise QBs and a long list of failed QB prospects. You will pick from the list that supports the point you're trying to make. It CAN be done. The Colts positioned themselves for Luck. Dalton is working out for the Bengals. Newton, who I hate, seems to be the guy in Carolina. Bortles and Carr will be the guy in their cities. The Packers developed Rodgers. Stanton? He's certainly been given time to develop and has looked pretty good lately. Good enough to start a QB controversy in Arizona. It happens. You can't just go out and do it in a single off-season, necessarily. Certainly Buddy Nix ignored the position during his entire tenure.

[swiper]

Here's an idea, how about drafting a QB that threw more than 23 TDs in a college season. Wilson threw 31, 28, and 33 in three seasons and less than 30 total INTs in the same seasons. Foles threw 28.

Manuel threw 18 and 23 his last two seasons, and on FSU that was underperforming in a big way.

Losman wasn't actually a bad try in drafting a QB, they don't always work out, but when you draft QBs that barely put up over 20 TDs in college, why is it smart to think that they're going to do better in the NFL.

So entirely to your point all it takes is a GM and personnel staff that realize that very simple little thing and understand a few others. This front office shoots from the hip all too often. Some teams may be able to take a player and develop him better but this team has no modern history of doing that with any position much less QB.

Remind me of the last great QB from Tulane please?

Every pro personnel guy thinks he has a successful QB formula. We posted the Bill Parcells guidelines a couple of years back. It's not a given. Ryan Leaf. That's all you need to say.

[stuckincincy]

Remind me of the last great QB from Tulane please?

Every pro personnel guy thinks he has a successful QB formula. We posted the Bill Parcells guidelines a couple of years back. It's not a given. Ryan Leaf. That's all you need to say.

Leaf is back in stir...

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11495757/ryan-leaf-sentenced-5-years-prison-violating-probation

[Fletch]

Remind me of the last great QB from Tulane please?

Every pro personnel guy thinks he has a successful QB formula. We posted the Bill Parcells guidelines a couple of years back. It's not a given. Ryan Leaf. That's all you need to say.

Name the last great QB from Florida State?

The only halfway decent one that ever made it to the NFL was Brad Johnson and he was far from great. For all the talent and championships that they've had that's not impressive. Keep in mind that you can say that about a lot of schools because there are what, how many, 200 schools that put players in the draft, more really if you count non FBS and non FCS schools, just counting the ones that seem to matter. Washington had only Bledsoe and Brunell, two QBs that had extended careers but neither of whom were great. How many has USC had?

My point was that Losman had some of the same characteristics that other legitimate 1st-rounders have. He also posted a lot more TD passes than EJ did. EJ was not a solid 1st-round selection under any criteria. Whaley reached, we know this.

[Strongman]

I doubt anyone better than Orton will become available in FA.

Unless EJ proves to be a franchise QB this year, I would like to see Orton, EJ & a rookie, what the hell, throw Tuel in there as well, fight it out for the starters job next year.

We'll see who becomes available next year. I just think drafting multiple QBs in a draft, the bulk of whom being lower round (project) QBs, would be a big mistake for the Bills with a questionable ability to develop project QBs. It would basically be throwing away draft picks that can be used elsewhere.

I really think all we need to do is look at the facts that EJ has shown little progress and the rest of the QBs we had in camp seemed to regress this year compared to last year. Thad Lewis regressed so much that he's no longer on the team. They really should have been better with a year under this offensive system. I think Hackett and Downing are the big reasons for QB's regression and EJ's lack of progress. Downing played some QB in a semi pro league for a couple years and he's in charge of EJ's development? I think the only positive we have right now is having Orton on the team now who might be able to instill some wisdom. I actually think EJ could be a better than average QB if he was with a team like the Steelers.

I'm telling you, they'd be better off getting another FA and *maybe* drafting a rookie in the 2nd.

[Buffalogic]

^ if we are forced to draft another QB(s) the current staff will not be developing him(them)

[Strongman]

^ if we are forced to draft another QB(s) the current staff will not be developing him(them)

I hope so.

[The Jokeman]

Here's an idea, how about drafting a QB that threw more than 23 TDs in a college season. Wilson threw 31, 28, and 33 in three seasons and less than 30 total INTs in the same seasons. Foles threw 28.

Manuel threw 18 and 23 his last two seasons, and on FSU that was underperforming in a big way.

Losman wasn't actually a bad try in drafting a QB, they don't always work out, but when you draft QBs that barely put up over 20 TDs in college, why is it smart to think that they're going to do better in the NFL.

So entirely to your point all it takes is a GM and personnel staff that realize that very simple little thing and understand a few others. This front office shoots from the hip all too often. Some teams may be able to take a player and develop him better but this team has no modern history of doing that with any position much less QB.

Your hate on EJ is getting tiresome. You'll find any reason to hate on him. Here's some info. Aaron Rodgers threw for 24 and 18 TDs in his two seasons as a starting QB at California. The most Colin Kaepernick ever had was 22 as a sophomore at Neveda. Tom Brady's best was 16. So come on now dig up a new stat to hate EJ on. I know hate on him for being the winning in 4 Bowl games in college despite being a backup QB his first two seasons. I think most of agree he's got a long way from being Brady or Rodgers in the NFL but the truth is he's not as horrid as you make him out to be no matter how you spin it. To me he's the best QB of his draft class and I think when everything is said and done he might even be better than any QB drafted in 2014 as well.

[The Jokeman]

Name the last great QB from Florida State?

The only halfway decent one that ever made it to the NFL was Brad Johnson and he was far from great. For all the talent and championships that they've had that's not impressive. Keep in mind that you can say that about a lot of schools because there are what, how many, 200 schools that put players in the draft, more really if you count non FBS and non FCS schools, just counting the ones that seem to matter. Washington had only Bledsoe and Brunell, two QBs that had extended careers but neither of whom were great. How many has USC had?

My point was that Losman had some of the same characteristics that other legitimate 1st-rounders have. He also posted a lot more TD passes than EJ did. EJ was not a solid 1st-round selection under any criteria. Whaley reached, we know this.

What characteristics did Losman have? His completion percentage in college was below 60%, he averaged 6.8 yards per pass. Tulane was 13-12 in his two years as a starter. In comparison Manuel's completion percentage was 66.9% averaged 8.6 yards per pass and was 25-6. Oh yeah and both sat their first two years behind QBs who were drafted in the first 32 picks of the NFL draft, Manuel behind Ponder and of course JP behind Ramsey so don't cry that EJ had a better surrounding class because I'd argue that EJ playing against the ACC had a far harder schedule than JP did against Conference USA opponents. Also in watching them play it's clear to me EJ is a better NFL QB. As to me I define a QB an ability to complete passes, avoid turnovers and at the end of the day if a game is on the line find ways to win. EJ's won 6 of his first 13 games with the Bills in comparison Losman by won 8 in his first 25. Losman had as big an arm as you'd want and he did well throwing bombs to Lee Evans but ask him to sustain drives and he couldn't. Avoid turnovers? Lest we forget the fumble against the Jets that got him injured and made us turn to Edwards? JP was a far inferior QB to EJ.

[YardRat]

I was talking about the current organization, not historical ones which has little to no relevance. Specifically, I have zero faith that Marrone, Hackett, and Downing can develop a QB. My take on it is this: Marrone and Hackett are in over their heads just running the team and the offense at the NFL level. As far as Downing, there is nothing in his resume that suggests he is even qualified to be a QB coach. Look at his time in Detroit. It can be argued that Stafford regressed with Downing's "help" during his time in Detroit. Can you point to anything Downing has done in his career that makes you think he is good? Throw in the fact that we have a front office with a suspect track record when it comes to scouting and drafting and you have a formula for disaster.

You contend you're talking about the current administration only, than label them untrustworthy to develop a QB, scouting and drafting, when the current administration has been in place for a little over a year and exactly two drafts. Your opinion on the FO and coaching staff is gleaned from exactly 19 games...if that's enough for you to come to a definitive conclusion, so be it. I never mentioned Downing.



BTW, Jim Kelly was in the USFL for two years before coming here. We may have drafted him, but technically the Houston Gamblers developed him.

I am more than well aware of that, and willing to agree that some of JK's development occurred in Houston.

[YardRat]

Why don't you do that?

Post the results when you're finished. Should be interesting.

It's OK to say "Wow...you're right. I had no idea." Nobody will hold it against you. I already have, FWIW. Unlike some, I don't just pull things out of my ass.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

How long do you give an organization to 'develop a quarterback'?

Why don't we go through the histories of all of the NFL teams and see how many have drafted and developed 'franchise' QB's? I'll start you out with two easy ones...Denver and Kansas City...zero.

Denver put a QB in the hall of fame. Wat.

[BertSquirtgum]

Tuel has a GOOD arm. Better than EJ IMO.

He is on the PS.

If he can learn to read defenses, I think he could be more than a game manager.

No

[YardRat]

Denver put a QB in the hall of fame. Wat.

Elway wasn't drafted by Denver, we're both aware of that.

Favre will be in the HOF also, but he wasn't drafted by Green Bay.

That's part of the point.

Some are clamoring for Buffalo to draft a franchise QB, and their apparent historical lack of ability to do so. Not many teams have, more than once or twice, if ever.

[Night Train]

Just let me know when Target restocks the shelves.

Sounds like the Bills just keep going down the wrong isle and the other 31 teams find one easily.

So actually, the Bills just need an updated Garmin.

[Fletch]

We never go shopping after the shelves have been restocked. We always go shopping just after they've been cleared out.

Then everyone supports the team's decisions by asking "who else should we have gotten". You don't put yourself into a situation like last year where there are no good options, you do what you just said, go after the shelves have been stocked.

One more thing that our front office doesn't understand despite the simplicity of it. One more reason why Pegula should get rid of the lot.

[Buffalogic]

Let's buy in bulk.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Elway wasn't drafted by Denver, we're both aware of that.

The team traded for Elway after a week. I don't think he ever even put on a Colts jersey once in his life. Denver deserves a hell of a lot more credit for developing Elway than Buffalo does for Kelly. Are you going to claim San Diego doesn't deserve credit for developing Rivers because they didn't draft him?


Some are clamoring for Buffalo to draft a franchise QB, and their apparent historical lack of ability to do so. Not many teams have, more than once or twice, if ever.

Well that's only if you are limiting "franchise" QBs to guys who are HOF or borderline HOF worthy. In your post you were rejecting guys like Bob Griese. I'd be ecstatic if we had a QB as good as Andy Dalton for god's sake.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I would sacrifice three picks to try and end this eternal QB drought, because we have wasted a lot more than that over the last 15 years and we still don't have one. The old way hasn't worked for us, so let's try something new in this new passing NFL.
Did you just finish watching "Draft Day"? Yes real life works just like that in the movies. Really.

[YardRat]

The team traded for Elway after a week. I don't think he ever even put on a Colts jersey once in his life. Denver deserves a hell of a lot more credit for developing Elway than Buffalo does for Kelly. Are you going to claim San Diego doesn't deserve credit for developing Rivers because they didn't draft him?

An aspect of landing a franchise QB in the draft is timing, position etc. Denver never had a shot at Elway, unless he did what he did. Denver deserves credit for trading for, and developing Elway, but not drafting him. Same applies for Rivers in San Diego. For that matter, it applies for Favre in Green Bay, also.

The premise of the thread is to go all in with draft picks, not trades.


Well that's only if you are limiting "franchise" QBs to guys who are HOF or borderline HOF worthy. In your post you were rejecting guys like Bob Griese. I'd be ecstatic if we had a QB as good as Andy Dalton for god's sake.

Yes, Griese was such a 'franchise' QB that all it took to replace him for the vast majority of their undefeated season was an over-the-hill reject from Shula's old Colt team. And, also, yes...'franchise' QB's are players that are HOF or borderline worthy.

[trapezeus]

what strikes me as interesting on trying to stat out franchise qbs and total busts on first 16 games is that their figures across major metrics look similar. so it does come down to feel and gut feelings. JP losman and Peyton Manning look about the same. EJ is in there with them. So stats aren't telling you the likelihood of things working out on the small sample size

some are better at protecting the ball and preventing turnovers in those 16 games. those aren't necessarily the guys who went on to amazing careers. some guys throw a lot and take chances and they get picked off a ton early. It hurts their QBR but as they learn, the next 16 games you see the transition to higher TD to turnovers. Those become the franchise guys. they also become the guys who just have high turnover rates.

So it just seems like EJ isn't an extreme outlier to most other qb's with 16 starts (he's three shy but it would take an epic collapse to make his figures seem outliers at this point). To me, there isn't a compelling case to call the experiment over. the experiment to me lasts through this season. and he has to show that he knows the difference between being conservative and just bailing when the play isn't there.

I'd love hacket to give manuel more. but watching the jets give geno the full playbook, you see the risks in that. geno can look very overwhlemed at key points in the game and when a play breaks down his improv skills are feast or famine. the jets probably have a more disruptive d than ours and if they had a game manager instead of a guy learning a complex playbook, they'd be 2-1 or 3-0.


The coaches get fired on L's. so as much as it would be fun to let EJ learn with a full playbook, it's better for their jobs if they give the other 2 parts of the team to keep them in it and see if EJ gets more comfortable with the basics.

I think EJ has to look a lot better this week. he can't keep running backwards when the play breaks down. he can't take off running and jog out of bounds when there are receivers who are open to him.

the big con on EJ is the unlearnable trait of being accurate. he's either kind of got in in a certain week or he's way off. and i don't know if he's going to truly learn that. we've already got a huge TE. we've got jump ball guys on the team. There isn't more that we can give him to offset his accuracy issues. i think by the miami game, if he isn't consistently having the 13-20 passing days for 200 yards and no turnovers, he's not coming along like he should.

[Buffalogic]

Did you just finish watching "Draft Day"? Yes real life works just like that in the movies. Really.
More drivel from Miyagi. It's not even close. Stop trying so hard.

EJ doesn't pass the eye test. Ever. All the other qb's we have had that have gone on to bust you could see flashes of NFL ability from them, but they weren't consistant. EJ doesn't have those flashes.

We have to reach to give credit to him for having maybe one good play a game. Like he gets all the credit for the Chandler catch, even though it was a much better catch than throw. Until proven otherwise, every good pass he makes I consider as dumb luck because they are so few and far between. The majority of his passes are dreadful.

His flaws aren't ones that will diminish over time. They aren't learning or playbook related. He cannot hit an open receiver consistantly, if ever. That isn't something that will drastically improve at any point of his career. That is who he is and it is not good enough to be a starter in the NFL. It hurts but we pretty much all know that and are hoping for the slim, almost non-existant chance, that something will be different. It won't.

[YardRat]

Accuracy is a learnable trait.

Everybody knows that it takes time for QB's and WR's to 'sync up', to get their timing down. That is learning accuracy.

[Buffalogic]

Accuracy is a learnable trait.

Everybody knows that it takes time for QB's and WR's to 'sync up', to get their timing down. That is learning accuracy.It is not a matter of sync when the ball is repeatedly thrown into the receiver's feet. Or over his head by a mile. Or behind him leading to painful and prolonged injury.

[The Jokeman]

It is not a matter of sync when the ball is repeatedly thrown into the receiver's feet. Or over his head by a mile. Or behind him leading to painful and prolonged injury.

Last I checked the only injured WR we have is Marcus Easley and he got hurt on a ST play.

[sudzy]

Last I checked the only injured WR we have is Marcus Easley and he got hurt on a ST play.

You must have missed the Phins fan where Watkins was coming off the field, what seemed like a dozen times with bruised ribs.

[The Jokeman]

You must have missed the Phins fan where Watkins was coming off the field, what seemed like a dozen times with bruised ribs.

I saw it but I also saw him play 50 of 59 offensive snaps in that game. It may be restricting him a bit but it hasn't cost him a game.

[Buffalogic]

^Nobody said it did. EJ and his bad passes have hurt Watkins and Goodwin already. We are three games into the season. Let's see which WR takes the EJ bullet this week.

[YardRat]

It is not a matter of sync when the ball is repeatedly thrown into the receiver's feet. Or over his head by a mile. Or behind him leading to painful and prolonged injury.

Ummm...yeah it is...think about that for a second...real hard, if you have to.

[Fletch]

Accuracy is a learnable trait.

Everybody knows that it takes time for QB's and WR's to 'sync up', to get their timing down. That is learning accuracy.

Timing, or accuracy?

Accuracy should never have to be a learnable trait for a QB.

If Manuel had been a 2nd or 3rd rounder a lot more people would have thrown in the towel already. He should have been a 2nd or 3rd rounder, just because the idiots in our FO deemed him to be a 1st rounder didn't turn him into a 1st-round talent.

[Fletch]

what strikes me as interesting on trying to stat out franchise qbs and total busts on first 16 games is that their figures across major metrics look similar. so it does come down to feel and gut feelings. JP losman and Peyton Manning look about the same. EJ is in there with them. So stats aren't telling you the likelihood of things working out on the small sample size

Did you actually look at Manning's first 16 games? Looks like you just assumed. Also, feel free to post the data next time. I realize that many posters here blindly react to statements like that as facts just because someone laid it out there.

In games 6-12 of his first 12 Manning threw for 14 TDs (2/game) and 5 INTs. He also proved that he could hit the deep ball.

Those same games for Manuel, 6-12 of his first 12 yielded 8 TDs and 7 INTs. Manuel can only seem to play well using his RBs and Chandler who are two of his four leading receivers. The WRs are all underperforming. The one that should be doing something with short balls isn't.

Manning only started to improve from there. Who cares what Losman did.

[trapezeus]

i already did, fletch in another post saying "why we watch the games" they are very compartive. how many posters here have to tell you that you are irritating before you just go away.

the point was that first 16 games, qb's look largely the same. the variance on qb rating, completion percentage and turnover ratios are close. it isn't the stats alone that give you enough information. you actually have to watch the games. also go ahead and look at brees first 32 or 40 games. he gets worse in year 2 and 3.

you are presumably a big boy. go ahead and look up the stats in espn or yahoo before you contradict yourself yet again, troll

[Fletch]

So to you a QB that throws for 14 TDs and 5 INTs in 7 games looks the same as one that throws for 8 TDs and 7 INTs.

OK

Once again that explains quite a bit here.

And yet you like to think that that's an intelligent statement. And you wonder why I scratch my head on some of these. Talk about agendas.

[trapezeus]

again, the point is the sample size of 16 games and the stats they throw out. if you want to go in and cherry pick 4 games, great!. literally every single person that tries to reason with you says you make your point on the smallest sample size and then parade around like a genius.

my point is that stats on average for first full season isn't telling by itself. you have to look at the actual development. yes, if the back end of 16 games looks significantly better and decision making is better, that's the feel you get for what makes it or not.

but seeing that we aren't at 16 games with EJ, and the fact his 16 games aren't all in one season suggests you need to see how he performs. he's 2-1 without major mistakes. his turnovers are low and his ability to connect on longer passes aren't definitively unfixable.

but you are the bills genius. we'll all just stop posting since you figured it out. let us know what we should think about the houston game before it even happened. we would hate to have a thought that isn't lockstep in line with yours.

[Buffalogic]

Ummm...yeah it is...think about that for a second...real hard, if you have to.
Wow Yardrat are you serious? I didn't know that you were such an excuse maker. You just always want to blame the receivers for some reason. When a guy is standing all alone and our qb drills his feet, it is an accuracy problem. Everyone knows he has an accuracy problem. Only you want to act like he doesn't or he can eventually learn to be accurate. He can't. Both are ridiculous arguments that make you look like a silly homer. You bash our receivers to try and cover up the fact that EJ is not an NFL caliber player and he never will be. He's got 3 years tops before he's bagging groceries.

[Fletch]

I think he'll be in the league after this season, just not with us and only as a 2nd or maybe even a 3rd. Still, a better living than someone bagging groceries. LOL

The only way that he stays here is if Whaley and this front office is still in place, but then our worries go well beyond Manuel and into the distant future.

[djjimkelly]

It sounds simple enough, but we haven't done it in 15 years.

we may have done it a few times but DICK got in the way a couple times and now a ******ed fan base is causing a young qb who has a winning record grief but manuel is playing like brady did in his 5th year


do people forget how serious the leash was on brady in 2001 yes as a rookie brady played like manning lol.

[Buffalogic]

^ what?

[YardRat]

Timing, or accuracy?

Accuracy should never have to be a learnable trait for a QB.

If Manuel had been a 2nd or 3rd rounder a lot more people would have thrown in the towel already. He should have been a 2nd or 3rd rounder, just because the idiots in our FO deemed him to be a 1st rounder didn't turn him into a 1st-round talent.

Accuracy is a skill...that needs to be learned...and honed. Accuracy is a learnable skill for anybody and everybody, regardless of the activity.

[YardRat]

Wow Yardrat are you serious? I didn't know that you were such an excuse maker. You just always want to blame the receivers for some reason. When a guy is standing all alone and our qb drills his feet, it is an accuracy problem. Everyone knows he has an accuracy problem. Only you want to act like he doesn't or he can eventually learn to be accurate. He can't. Both are ridiculous arguments that make you look like a silly homer. You bash our receivers to try and cover up the fact that EJ is not an NFL caliber player and he never will be. He's got 3 years tops before he's bagging groceries.

Please show me where I 'always' want to blame the receivers.
Please show me where I have stated EJ doesn't have accuracy issues.
You won't be able to, so you really should just STFU.
Anybody that doesn't understand a skill has to be learned is a dumbass.
How EJ pans out remains to be seen. He could be bagging groceries, he could be a starting QB in the NFL.

[Buffalogic]

^You routinely bring up sync and routes as a defense in repeated threads like a total fool.

The faulty explanations to your idiotic EJ support just keep getting worse and worse. Only an idiot would think someone who can't be accurate will become accurate. People who can't walk won't learn to walk. Walking is a skill. Some things you just can, or can't do naturally.

EJ isn't accurate and never will be. Deal with it and stop lying to yourself you bloody homer.

[BertSquirtgum]

Timing, or accuracy?

Accuracy should never have to be a learnable trait for a QB.


So major league pitching prospects don't practice their accuracy in the minors before getting called up? It most certainly is a learnable trait. Get real.

[Buffalogic]

So major league pitching prospects don't practice their accuracy in the minors before getting called up? It most certainly is a learnable trait. Get real.Learning and doing are two different things. Someone could tell you what to do until they are blue in the face, but at the end of the day you either can do it or you can't.

EJ will never, ever, ever be an accurate quarterback. Ever.

[YardRat]

^You routinely bring up sync and routes as a defense in repeated threads like a total fool.

The faulty explanations to your idiotic EJ support just keep getting worse and worse. Only an idiot would think someone who can't be accurate will become accurate. People who can't walk won't learn to walk. Walking is a skill. Some things you just can, or can't do naturally.

EJ isn't accurate and never will be. Deal with it and stop lying to yourself you bloody homer.

Jesus, it's unbelievable you don't realize how ignorant that sounds. Let go of your EJ hatred for a moment and read what you're writing.

[Buffalogic]

Jesus, it's unbelievable you don't realize how ignorant that sounds. Let go of your EJ hatred for a moment and read what you're writing.Another weak response not saying anything. Grats.

Back to the point. EJ sucks lets draft three qbs in a row.

[YardRat]

EJ is in the development stage.
He may not grow any further, then again he might...only time and experience will tell.
Anybody that advocates drafting three QB's in a row should go back to chewing on crayons, because that is their ceiling.

[YardRat]

This is just not true. Of course your odds would go up. We might whiff on all three, but that puts us where we have always been at. If one hits then it changes everything for us. It is the most important position in sports. Just pick a bunch of prospects and see which can be the best pro.

No, they wouldn't. It's the equivalent of playing the lottery three days in a row. Your odds are the same each day, and don't go up just because you keep buying tickets. Also, it isn't the most important position in sports. When a QB can succeed, without the rest of the players having to do a damn thing, than maybe...but that will never be the case.

[Fletch]

So major league pitching prospects don't practice their accuracy in the minors before getting called up? It most certainly is a learnable trait. Get real.

Tell me about a QB that puts "stuff" on his throws?

Otherwise, name a bunch of QBs that had significant accuracy issues that overcame them to achieve a high level of play? Go ahead.

Instead of just blurting things out try actually providing some evidence for your positions. That's the entire problem here, like a room full of parrrots far too many posters just blurt out what they hear from the team or from some idiot guy on TV talking sports, as if there's ever any accountability there. Trying doing some homework and putting down your findings when you make comments.

I'm not trying to get you riled up but seriously, if you say something like that at least provide some examples.

I can't think of one, off hand, of a QB that everyone said had significant accuracy issues that was drafted and became a good starting QB in the NFL. And if there is one I doubt that there are many. It's gotta be next to none if any at all.

[BertSquirtgum]

Tell me about a QB that puts "stuff" on his throws?

Otherwise, name a bunch of QBs that had significant accuracy issues that overcame them to achieve a high level of play? Go ahead.

Instead of just blurting things out try actually providing some evidence for your positions. That's the entire problem here, like a room full of parrrots far too many posters just blurt out what they hear from the team or from some idiot guy on TV talking sports, as if there's ever any accountability there. Trying doing some homework and putting down your findings when you make comments.

I'm not trying to get you riled up but seriously, if you say something like that at least provide some examples.

I can't think of one, off hand, of a QB that everyone said had significant accuracy issues that was drafted and became a good starting QB in the NFL. And if there is one I doubt that there are many. It's gotta be next to none if any at all.

You're mentally challenged

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Accuracy is a skill...that needs to be learned...and honed. Accuracy is a learnable skill for anybody and everybody, regardless of the activity.


So major league pitching prospects don't practice their accuracy in the minors before getting called up? It most certainly is a learnable trait. Get real.

Accuracy is indeed a skill that can be learned and taught, but it's not a switch one can flip overnight. EJ having to work so much on his fundamentals while also learning all of the myriad other things he needs to be an effect NFL QB doesn't bode well. Hurkey pointing out that pitchers learn in the minors is an excellent point - EJ really, really needs to spend more time in the minors, but the NFL doesn't have that option.

[Buffalogic]

No, they wouldn't. It's the equivalent of playing the lottery three days in a row. Your odds are the same each day, and don't go up just because you keep buying tickets. Also, it isn't the most important position in sports. When a QB can succeed, without the rest of the players having to do a damn thing, than maybe...but that will never be the case.Wrong. You are acting like teams never find a capable starting qb. It happens every year to at least one team. If 7 qb's are drafted in that year and 3 are picked by us, our odds increase. 3/7 chance isn't the lottery you weirdo.

If you haven't been accurate your entire football life do you really think you are going to learn in your 17th year playing the position? No. You either have accuracy or you don't.

[cookie G]

EJ is in the development stage.

This might be a little more than "development". He has serious, serious problems hitting a moving target. He can hit a stationary target OK..but if the guy is running...he misses more than he hits. And that's disturbing.

And on most of these misses...he has time and a clean pocket, but he's just misfiring. Between preseason and the 1st 3 games..Robert Woods should have, at least 4 Andre Reed type TD catches...those where he's hit over the middle, is hit in stride, splits teh defenders and takes off.

But he's missed, badly at times. And these weren't particularly difficult throws.

I was at my son's HS game last night, and watching the QB's hit a moving WR on a 15 yard crossing pattern or a post...and at least 5 times, thought to myself..God..I wish the Bills had a QB that could make that throw.

That's pretty depressing. At the level he is at...and the relative ease of those throws..it is basically inexcusable for him to miss so often. When his receivers have been at full stride in a route, I'd bet his completion rate isn't much above 33%.

Saying "damn, I bet he wishes he had that throw back" should be the exception..not the rule.





He may not grow any further, then again he might...only time and experience will tell.
Anybody that advocates drafting three QB's in a row should go back to chewing on crayons, because that is their ceiling.

Well, conversely...we've spent well over a decade using the line "we have to see what he can do".

Keep using that line and you end up in a 14 year streak without playoffs.

[Buffalogic]

^bingo.

[CoolBreeze]

Wrong. You are acting like teams never find a capable starting qb. It happens every year to at least one team. If 7 qb's are drafted in that year and 3 are picked by us, our odds increase. 3/7 chance isn't the lottery you weirdo.

If you haven't been accurate your entire football life do you really think you are going to learn in your 17th year playing the position? No. You either have accuracy or you don't.

This isn't madden, you don't take 3 QBs in a row. It will never ever happen.

[Buffalogic]

This isn't madden, you don't take 3 QBs in a row. It will never ever happen.
Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it shouldn't, or that it won't. If any team should do it, it should be the bills.

Advancement and innovation come from trying new things.

[YardRat]

Wrong. You are acting like teams never find a capable starting qb. It happens every year to at least one team. If 7 qb's are drafted in that year and 3 are picked by us, our odds increase. 3/7 chance isn't the lottery you weirdo.

That's just dumbass logic.


If you haven't been accurate your entire football life do you really think you are going to learn in your 17th year playing the position? No. You either have accuracy or you don't.

You might to reveal your little secret of accuracy being an inherent trait, not a learned skill, to the tens of millions of professional and amateur competitors that devote a ****-ton of time and effort to improve their accuracy so that they can perform better, regardless of whether they are football players, baseball, basketball, skeet-shooters, archers, curlers, yada yada yada.

That

[YardRat]

This might be a little more than "development". He has serious, serious problems hitting a moving target. He can hit a stationary target OK..but if the guy is running...he misses more than he hits. And that's disturbing.

And on most of these misses...he has time and a clean pocket, but he's just misfiring. Between preseason and the 1st 3 games..Robert Woods should have, at least 4 Andre Reed type TD catches...those where he's hit over the middle, is hit in stride, splits teh defenders and takes off.

But he's missed, badly at times. And these weren't particularly difficult throws.

I was at my son's HS game last night, and watching the QB's hit a moving WR on a 15 yard crossing pattern or a post...and at least 5 times, thought to myself..God..I wish the Bills had a QB that could make that throw.

That's pretty depressing. At the level he is at...and the relative ease of those throws..it is basically inexcusable for him to miss so often. When his receivers have been at full stride in a route, I'd bet his completion rate isn't much above 33%.

Saying "damn, I bet he wishes he had that throw back" should be the exception..not the rule.





Well, conversely...we've spent well over a decade using the line "we have to see what he can do".

Keep using that line and you end up in a 14 year streak without playoffs.

Nobody has said EJ doesn't have issues, and accuracy is one of them. Two of the top three receivers on the team he's worked with pretty much in exactly three games that count. Granted, the example you point out unfortunately involves the receiver he has the most experience with.

Development takes time...more than 13 games. If EJ performs the same in week 12 as he does now, than it might be time to worry, but development comes from experience, real game experience, and he isn't going to get that on the bench behind Orton.

That being said, the real issue I've been addressing hasn't necessarily been EJ specifically, but the dumbass contention that accuracy is a natural trait that can't be taught, or learned. That's just ignorance at an entirely new level. Piss and moan about EJ all you want, but don't try to rationalize it with something so obviously stupid.

[sudzy]

How many games does EJ have to play before the "he's only played xx games" excuse doesn't work anymore? I get the feeling some fans will be saying "give him a chance he's only played 34 games. Everyone know it take more time then that to develop."

[YardRat]

Tell me about a QB that puts "stuff" on his throws?

Otherwise, name a bunch of QBs that had significant accuracy issues that overcame them to achieve a high level of play? Go ahead.

Instead of just blurting things out try actually providing some evidence for your positions. That's the entire problem here, like a room full of parrrots far too many posters just blurt out what they hear from the team or from some idiot guy on TV talking sports, as if there's ever any accountability there. Trying doing some homework and putting down your findings when you make comments.

I'm not trying to get you riled up but seriously, if you say something like that at least provide some examples.

I can't think of one, off hand, of a QB that everyone said had significant accuracy issues that was drafted and became a good starting QB in the NFL. And if there is one I doubt that there are many. It's gotta be next to none if any at all.

There aren't that many QB's that get drafted that become a good starting QB in the NFL, period. The odds are long, and failures far exceed the successes.

[Buffalogic]

Nobody has said EJ doesn't have issues, and accuracy is one of them. Two of the top three receivers on the team he's worked with pretty much in exactly three games that count. Granted, the example you point out unfortunately involves the receiver he has the most experience with.

Development takes time...more than 13 games. If EJ performs the same in week 12 as he does now, than it might be time to worry, but development comes from experience, real game experience, and he isn't going to get that on the bench behind Orton.

That being said, the real issue I've been addressing hasn't necessarily been EJ specifically, but the dumbass contention that accuracy is a natural trait that can't be taught, or learned. That's just ignorance at an entirely new level. Piss and moan about EJ all you want, but don't try to rationalize it with something so obviously stupid.During development you should see progression. The most recent game is probably EJ's worst game ever. When do you factor in regression into your little development safe zone?

Name one qb ever in the history of the NFL who was horribly inaccurate and then became a winning and accurate starting qb? He doesn't exist. However you look at it you are fighting a losing battle yardrat.

[YardRat]

How many games does EJ have to play before the "he's only played xx games" excuse doesn't work anymore? I get the feeling some fans will be saying "give him a chance he's only played 34 games. Everyone know it take more time then that to develop."

Depends on the curve. If 'progress' over a larger sample size than one game flattens out or declines and the team continues to lose, the plug will probably be pulled sometime later this season. Back in the day conventional wisdom was it took three years to develop a QB, but the 'win now' and instant gratification culture that has been established around the QB position has shortened that up, maybe significantly.

[YardRat]

During development you should see progression. The most recent game is probably EJ's worst game ever. When do you factor in regression into your little development safe zone?

Name one qb ever in the history of the NFL who was horribly inaccurate and then became a winning and accurate starting qb? He doesn't exist. However you look at it you are fighting a losing battle yardrat.

One game isn't an adequate sample size for measuring either progression or regression.

Matt Stafford, for one---Throws off his back foot more than he should and it leads to poor accuracy

[pmoon6]

Depends on the curve. If 'progress' over a larger sample size than one game flattens out or declines and the team continues to lose, the plug will probably be pulled sometime later this season. Back in the day conventional wisdom was it took three years to develop a QB, but the 'win now' and instant gratification culture that has been established around the QB position has shortened that up, maybe significantly.And I wonder why that is? I mean you can fill a page with highly drafted QB's that struggled their first couple of years and even more that rode the bench while they assimilated to the pro game.

I know the rules are set up for early success at the QB position, but as you pointed out, it depends on the individuals' learning curve.

My question was rhetorical, BTW, because I know the answer.

You see the younger guys here *****ing about Manuel because they want it and they want it NOW. Alot of our society has embraced this mantra and if they don't get it, there is something terribly wrong. Then they whine, cry and ***** until they do. Cut this guy, fire the coach and GM, etc. etc.

[Fletch]

You see the younger guys here *****ing about Manuel because they want it and ttis guy, fire the coach and GM, etc. etc.

Au contraire.

Can't speak to the "younger guys," but some of us just realize that Manuel wasn't nor ever will be the type of QB that typically gets drafted in round 1 and that he max'd out at FSU and has limitations that he can't overcome at the NFL level.

So why continue to attempt to get lemonade from a bunch of rotten fruit. This is what few here seem to understand, FSU desperately tried to make more out of Manuel than he was and that he was a limitation for them, not a player that made the team better. The team made him what he was and because of the talent differential between players on FSU and their opponents, him included, he played well enough.

He would have put up much better numbers there than he had if he were as good as Whaley (and many people here) seem to think he is.

Some people see and understand this, some will have to be convinced only after repeated futility over an extended period of time.

The types of problems that Manuel has are not easily if at all coachable. If they were, then the FSU coaching staff would have been able to correct them. How many times does it need to be said that they finally threw in the towel on him and gave up and accepted the level of play that he brought and just tailored the offense around him, kinda like Whaley tried to do by drafting Watkins. Still, it doesn't seem to have helped even though Watkins is supposed be doing all the work.

We'll see, 13 games left, but maybe not for Manuel. imo they should leave him in for the full 13 just so we can move on one way or another at the end of the season, but they may react to the cries for Orton that appear to be imminent.

[pmoon6]

Au contraire.

Can't speak to the "younger guys," but some of us just realize that Manuel wasn't nor ever will be the type of QB that typically gets drafted in round 1 and that he max'd out at FSU and has limitations that he can't overcome at the NFL level.

So why continue to attempt to get lemonade from a bunch of rotten fruit. This is what few here seem to understand, FSU desperately tried to make more out of Manuel than he was and that he was a limitation for them, not a player that made the team better. The team made him what he was and because of the talent differential between players on FSU and their opponents, him included, he played well enough.

He would have put up much better numbers there than he had if he were as good as Whaley (and many people here) seem to think he is.

Some people see and understand this, some will have to be convinced only after repeated futility over an extended period of time.

The types of problems that Manuel has are not easily if at all coachable. If they were, then the FSU coaching staff would have been able to correct them. How many times does it need to be said that they finally threw in the towel on him and gave up and accepted the level of play that he brought and just tailored the offense around him, kinda like Whaley tried to do by drafting Watkins. Still, it doesn't seem to have helped even though Watkins is supposed be doing all the work.

We'll see, 13 games left, but maybe not for Manuel. imo they should leave him in for the full 13 just so we can move on one way or another at the end of the season, but they may react to the cries for Orton that appear to be imminent.Can I borrow your crystal ball, Filtch? I'm sure you wrote Rich Gannon and Doug Williams off when they putted around the NFL for a few years.

You are the same as the younger guys. It's all about serving your ego and you pimping your football accumen as opposed to just enjoying the games of your supposed team. I question if you are really a Bills' Fan or not. It's possible because I see a few like you.

Unfortunately, they too need testosterone replacement therapy.

[YardRat]

I would bet a dollar that the people that whine about EJ are the same ones that were all over the nuts of QB's that 'typically get drafted in the first round' like Geno Smith, RGIII, Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder, Sanchez, Freeman, yada yada yada.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Can I borrow your crystal ball, Filtch? I'm sure you wrote Rich Gannon and Doug Williams off when they putted around the NFL for a few years.

You are the same as the younger guys. It's all about serving your ego and you pimping your football accumen as opposed to just enjoying the games of your supposed team. I question if you are really a Bills' Fan or not. It's possible because I see a few like you.

Unfortunately, they too need testosterone replacement therapy.

Rich Gannon was horrible for the first ten years of his career. He didn't hit his stride until his third franchise. How long does Manuel deserve?

[pmoon6]

Rich Gannon was horrible for the first ten years of his career. He didn't hit his stride until his third franchise. How long does Manuel deserve?If he continues to play like last week, he needs to be benched and made a back-up. He can develop by sitting, studying film, practice.

[Buffalogic]

If he continues to play like last week, he needs to be benched and made a back-up. He can develop by sitting, studying film, practice.So he needs to be benched. Glad you finally agree.