I don't get the so called "experts" hate of EJ

[DesertFox24]

Ej is by no means a finished product or can anyone say with definite what he is but as of right now he has a 90 qb rating and is higher than average qb rating and only one turnover. What I don't understand is why so many "experts" say he is worst qb in league. Only 13 starts and bills not asking him to win games just manage for now

All that aside if you look at stats through first 13 games EJ is better than tanneyhill and geno.

I just wonder if people expect ej to do more with his talent. Which I agree he has way more talent than most young qbs have had, but hard to evaluate when we do not have the whole picture. I guess I just need to start unfollowing these ex scouts they are ex scouts for a reason.

[DesertFox24]

What I mean by whole picture is we so not know what the bills are telling him to do. It is clear they are taking his development wry slowly. Time will tell if that works or not.

[Dr. Who]

Go read your Plato. Experts are usually "sophists" who say whatever is expedient. Right now, a lot of them benefit from internet clicks and they know an impatient Bills' fanbase will eat up any negative crap.

[k-oneputt]

Can't complete a pass thrown in the AIR more then 10 yds.

Lets start there. Then we can get into seeing the field, progressions, feel in the pocket, instincts ....

[justasportsfan]

What I mean by whole picture is we so not know what the bills are telling him to do. I'm pretty sure the bills are telling him to throw to OPEN receivers. He's not seeing them therefore he's not doing it. Of course that based on the SD game and you're only as good as your last game.



It is clear they are taking his development wry slowly. Time will tell if that works or not.Time is not on Marrone or Whaley's side with new ownership coming in. If EJ is the only reason that the team in not making playoffs, you and I will have to be patient AGAIN when Pegula cleans house because MArrone/Whaley hitched their wagon on EJ.

If EJ is a project, then let him sit on the bench like Aaron Rogers had to. Marrone and Whaley shouldn't be talking about winning now and then use the season to develop a project.

I'm not an EJ hater . I'm tired just of being patient . I picked Ej amongst all the qb's in his draft class but I'll call it as I see it. He had 2 good games at the start of the season and said it.

The reason why I haven't given up on him is because I knew he wasn't Andrew Luck. I allowed all the excuses given to him last year to stick. He spent last years off season preparing for the combine, he got injured, he didn't have a Qb coach,etc. Now that he had all offseason to prepare, healthy and a QB coach, there should be no reason why he should play like he did last year.

He had to 2 games, but his last game here reverted back to last year. I'm pulling for him but he looked lost.

[DesertFox24]

Can't complete a pass thrown in the AIR more then 10 yds.

Lets start there. Then we can get into seeing the field, progressions, feel in the pocket, instincts ....

I saw him make plenty of downfield throws against The bears and even the phins

[DesertFox24]

I'm pretty sure the bills are telling him to throw to OPEN receivers. He's not seeing them therefore he's not doing it. Of course that based on the SD game and you're only as good as your last game.

Time is not on Marrone or Whaley's side with new ownership coming in. If EJ is the only reason that the team in not making playoffs, you and I will have to be patient AGAIN when Pegula cleans house because MArrone/Whaley hitched their wagon on EJ.

If EJ is a project, then let him sit on the bench like Aaron Rogers had to. Marrone and Whaley shouldn't be talking about winning now and then use the season to develop a project.

I'm not an EJ hater . I'm tired just of being patient . I picked Ej amongst all the qb's in his draft class but I'll call it as I see it. He had 2 good games at the start of the season and said it.

The reason why I haven't given up on him is because I knew he wasn't Andrew Luck. I allowed all the excuses given to him last year to stick. He spent last years off season preparing for the combine, he got injured, he didn't have a Qb coach,etc. Now that he had all offseason to prepare, healthy and a QB coach, there should be no reason why he should play like he did last year.

He had to 2 games, but his last game here reverted back to last year. I'm pulling for him but he looked lost.

Well I am very interested to see how he responds and to hopefully see him string together a few good games. What I don't want is consecutive bad games

[BuffaloRedleg]

I don't see Geno or Tanny getting any love either though.

[Bill Cody]

I'm pretty sure the bills are telling him to throw to OPEN receivers. He's not seeing them therefore he's not doing it. Of course that based on the SD game and you're only as good as your last game.

Time is not on Marrone or Whaley's side with new ownership coming in. If EJ is the only reason that the team in not making playoffs, you and I will have to be patient AGAIN when Pegula cleans house because MArrone/Whaley hitched their wagon on EJ.

If EJ is a project, then let him sit on the bench like Aaron Rogers had to. Marrone and Whaley shouldn't be talking about winning now and then use the season to develop a project.

I'm not an EJ hater . I'm tired just of being patient . I picked Ej amongst all the qb's in his draft class but I'll call it as I see it. He had 2 good games at the start of the season and said it.

The reason why I haven't given up on him is because I knew he wasn't Andrew Luck. I allowed all the excuses given to him last year to stick. He spent last years off season preparing for the combine, he got injured, he didn't have a Qb coach,etc. Now that he had all offseason to prepare, healthy and a QB coach, there should be no reason why he should play like he did last year.

He had to 2 games, but his last game here reverted back to last year. I'm pulling for him but he looked lost.

It's not going to be the last time he drops a stinker that's for sure. Growth at the QB position is never linear especially with a project like EJ. My hope before the season was that we'd be 3-3 after 6 games under the assumption that EJ would be less than effective in 3 of them. The Aaron Rodgers reference is ridiculous. Orton wouldn't be allowed to launder Brett Favre's jock strap. And frankly EJ is no Rodgers. The expectations for EJ were unrealistic last year and remain so. It doesn't matter if you're patient or not, give up on him, stay in his corner, whatever. The process is what it is. It will be 5 years before EJ is a completely finished product. The only way he gets that far is to continue to progress. But it won't be without some major bumps in the road. Jus sayin.

[DesertFox24]

I don't see Geno or Tanny getting any love either though.

This douche john middlekauf who claims to be a draft guy and ex nfl scout said he does not understand tanneyhill hate and said not like he has been ej bad. When prodded by people said geNo The best none luck guy from the past few drafts. Said Carr probably better than all

[DesertFox24]

It's not going to be the last time he drops a stinker that's for sure. Growth at the QB position is never linear especially with a project like EJ. My hope before the season was that we'd be 3-3 after 6 games under the assumption that EJ would be less than effective in 3 of them. The Aaron Rodgers reference is ridiculous. Orton wouldn't be allowed to launder Brett Favre's jock strap. And frankly EJ is no Rodgers. The expectations for EJ were unrealistic last year and remain so. It doesn't matter if you're patient or not, give up on him, stay in his corner, whatever. The process is what it is. It will be 5 years before EJ is a completely finished product. The only way he gets that far is to continue to progress. But it won't be without some major bumps in the road. Jus sayin.

Completely agree with your timeframe. That being said no one liked Rogers at first and after his first year starting people were callings for Green Bay to get another qb. He like manual needed a lot of work post college. However Rogers had a HOF in front of him so no one clamoring for him to play allowed him to work on mechanics. Then the one year he played he was able to work on that his 4th offseason and became a good qb

[justasportsfan]

It's not going to be the last time he drops a stinker that's for sure. Growth at the QB position is never linear especially with a project like EJ. My hope before the season was that we'd be 3-3 after 6 games under the assumption that EJ would be less than effective in 3 of them. The Aaron Rodgers reference is ridiculous. Orton wouldn't be allowed to launder Brett Favre's jock strap. And frankly EJ is no Rodgers. The expectations for EJ were unrealistic last year and remain so. It doesn't matter if you're patient or not, give up on him, stay in his corner, whatever. The process is what it is. It will be 5 years before EJ is a completely finished product. The only way he gets that far is to continue to progress. But it won't be without some major bumps in the road. Jus sayin.No one on this team has 5 years to wait. If the team fails because of Ej, then th time frame will be more than 5 years because he'll end up with a new OC when a new HC is hired.

[BuffaloRedleg]

This douche john middlekauf who claims to be a draft guy and ex nfl scout said he does not understand tanneyhill hate and said not like he has been ej bad. When prodded by people said geNo The best none luck guy from the past few drafts. Said Carr probably better than all

Well I don't see most people in the national media thinking that way. That isn't an enforcement of EJ, but I haven't seen all that other stuff from most analysts who aren't just trying to be controversial to get hits on their web blog.

[Fletch]

Can't complete a pass thrown in the AIR more then 10 yds.

Lets start there. Then we can get into seeing the field, progressions, feel in the pocket, instincts ....

Which is evidenced by the fact that he's only thrown for 319 yards to his WRs so far. I don't think that there's another team besides Tampa that has less to their WRs. Cleveland, Jax, Oakland, Jets, Fins, Rams all have more to their WRs. Tampa just has less overall and no receivers after their rookie Evans and Vincent besides him. So at least they have a reason. We have Woods, Watkins, Williams, Goodwin.

Speaking to the topic of the thread, the proper way to assess this is by trying to find out what his future potential is, not just holding out hope for this season. If we want production this season only then put Orton in. When a QB doesn't know how to use WRs downfield then it's not a good sign, you have a QB that makes it easy for opponents to plan against. Manuel seems to be some kind of hybrid between Edwards and Holcomb. High completion percentage but bad on 3rd downs and unable to move the ball well or consistently.

That's what you can expect from maybe a 3rd, 4th, or 5th round prospect that's a project, like Edwards, but Manuel was a 16th overall, so the expectations are much higher. As I see it, the awareness that he struggled with the same things are only now coming to light for people talking about this despite the fact that they were well documented prior to the draft. Once again I'll be the heavy hammer, but this falls squarely on Whaley's shoulders.

Everyone's looking for progress but there is none. People would be more patient if there were some. If Manuel had been a 2nd round pick then they might not be so harsh on him, but he was a 1st so they are. At 16th overall people expect much more rapid development. Have we seen any? Seems like what they said about him at FSU is true here, he corrects one thing, moves on to correct another, and the thing he just corrected falls back to the state that it was in before they worked with him on that.

People are finally coming to the conclusion that if he does work out it may take five seasons if it ever were to happen and no team in the NFL has that kind of time.

[DraftBoy]

This douche john middlekauf who claims to be a draft guy and ex nfl scout said he does not understand tanneyhill hate and said not like he has been ej bad. When prodded by people said geNo The best none luck guy from the past few drafts. Said Carr probably better than all

I'm not familiar with Middlekauf's comment re: Tannehill and EJ but his claim that he is an ex NFL scout is 100% legitimate fwiw.

[Fletch]

It's not going to be the last time he drops a stinker that's for sure. Growth at the QB position is never linear especially with a project like EJ. My hope before the season was that we'd be 3-3 after 6 games under the assumption that EJ would be less than effective in 3 of them. The Aaron Rodgers reference is ridiculous. Orton wouldn't be allowed to launder Brett Favre's jock strap. And frankly EJ is no Rodgers. The expectations for EJ were unrealistic last year and remain so. It doesn't matter if you're patient or not, give up on him, stay in his corner, whatever. The process is what it is. It will be 5 years before EJ is a completely finished product. The only way he gets that far is to continue to progress. But it won't be without some major bumps in the road. Jus sayin.

You hit on a bunch of good points.

I think you're right, he's a project. But should a 16th overall selection be a project? Clearly not. A 16th overall should be able to develop rather rapidly, right.

Is it possible that the expectations are unreasonable because he is a project and people didn't expect a project because he was a 16th overall?

Which team in the NFL allows five years to develop a QB into one that is merely capable of playing the position but not at a high level? That time frame is unreasonable in the modern NFL. Not sure if you were suggesting that we wait that long or just saying.

It was a poor choice of a draft pick that has left our team in this bad position.

[Fletch]

Time is not on Marrone or Whaley's side with new ownership coming in. If EJ is the only reason that the team in not making playoffs, you and I will have to be patient AGAIN when Pegula cleans house because MArrone/Whaley hitched their wagon on EJ.

If EJ is a project, then let him sit on the bench like Aaron Rogers had to. Marrone and Whaley shouldn't be talking about winning now and then use the season to develop a project.

I'm not an EJ hater . I'm tired just of being patient . I picked Ej amongst all the qb's in his draft class but I'll call it as I see it. He had 2 good games at the start of the season and said it.

The reason why I haven't given up on him is because I knew he wasn't Andrew Luck. I allowed all the excuses given to him last year to stick. He spent last years off season preparing for the combine, he got injured, he didn't have a Qb coach,etc. Now that he had all offseason to prepare, healthy and a QB coach, there should be no reason why he should play like he did last year.

He had to 2 games, but his last game here reverted back to last year. I'm pulling for him but he looked lost.

Good post, I agree with it. But let me tap your brain on this.

Everyone talks about what a great leader he is, how intelligent he is, great arm strength and physical/athletic traits, so then why do you think that he's incapable of playing better than he is? In essence, he has all the "tools," so what's the thing or things holding him back?

Anyone.

[better days]

I don't see Geno or Tanny getting any love either though.


EJ did nothing to help the Bills win the Chargers game, but he did nothing to lose the game either.

Geno & Tanny were both responsible for their teams losses.

[Topas]

You hit on a bunch of good points.

I think you're right, he's a project. But should a 16th overall selection be a project? Clearly not. A 16th overall should be able to develop rather rapidly, right.

Is it possible that the expectations are unreasonable because he is a project and people didn't expect a project because he was a 16th overall?

Which team in the NFL allows five years to develop a QB into one that is merely capable of playing the position but not at a high level? That time frame is unreasonable in the modern NFL. Not sure if you were suggesting that we wait that long or just saying.

It was a poor choice of a draft pick that has left our team in this bad position.

I think there are two issues:

First, is EJ a project that needs more time and if, yes how long do we need to wait. Or stop the EJ project right away.
Second, was he drafted too high?

The second issue is irrelevant. It is sunken costs. It is relevant for sports radio talk but not for decisions the FO should take. Either it is best to get him more learning experience and start him or it is best to let hem learn on the bench or it is best for the team to cut him right away. That is the important question.

His drafting status is irrelevant to this.

[Topas]

EJ did nothing to help the Bills win the Chargers game, but he did nothing to lose the game either.

Geno & Tanny were both responsible for their teams losses.

I hate this argument. If a QB throws a Int then he is at fault, but if a QB throws the ball away and does not move the team at all, then he did nothing to lose the game. Thats crap. By that definition I can be a better QB than Geno and Tann. Because I will just spike each ball. By your standard I am better than both of those, because they threw Ints.

Better go down fighting than not trying.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Tanne or Geno are better than EJ. I am just saying your criteria sucks. Sorry.

[Fletch]

I think there are two issues:

First, is EJ a project that needs more time and if, yes how long do we need to wait. Or stop the EJ project right away.
Second, was he drafted too high?

The second issue is irrelevant. It is sunken costs. It is relevant for sports radio talk but not for decisions the FO should take. Either it is best to get him more learning experience and start him or it is best to let hem learn on the bench or it is best for the team to cut him right away. That is the important question.

His drafting status is irrelevant to this.

Agree that his draft status is irrelevant at this point with the exception that it was Whaley's and he needs to be held accountable, espeically after this season's draft strategy of his now in the rearview mirror.

As to Manuel though, your second issue is related to the question that I asked. Do you have an opinion on it?


Everyone talks about what a great leader he is, how intelligent he is, great arm strength and physical/athletic traits, so then why do you think that he's incapable of playing better than he is? In essence, he has all the "tools," so what's the thing or things holding him back?

Anyone.

[Fletch]

I hate this argument. If a QB throws a Int then he is at fault, but if a QB throws the ball away and does not move the team at all, then he did nothing to lose the game. Thats crap. By that definition I can be a better QB than Geno and Tann. Because I will just spike each ball. By your standard I am better than both of those, because they threw Ints.

Better go down fighting than not trying.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Tanne or Geno are better than EJ. I am just saying your criteria sucks. Sorry.

That's why we look at overall play, statistically. Lenghts of drives, ability to generate 1st downs, convert 3rds, red zone production are among the most important things in establishing time of possession and drives that get the team into the red zone and its ability to punch it in when they're down there.

[Bill Cody]

You hit on a bunch of good points.

I think you're right, he's a project. But should a 16th overall selection be a project? Clearly not. A 16th overall should be able to develop rather rapidly, right.

Is it possible that the expectations are unreasonable because he is a project and people didn't expect a project because he was a 16th overall?

Which team in the NFL allows five years to develop a QB into one that is merely capable of playing the position but not at a high level? That time frame is unreasonable in the modern NFL. Not sure if you were suggesting that we wait that long or just saying.

It was a poor choice of a draft pick that has left our team in this bad position.

Drafting QB's is the hardest thing to do for a desperate team. If you don't really need one you can sometimes hit on a bargain. Most of the time though (90% or more) teams significantly overpay for QB's. Not my opinion, fact. So if you really need a guy and we did you're willing to overpay a round or even 2 to get what you think is the best prospect. That's what we did with Manuel. You can say "he should have been a 2nd or 3rd round pick". The answer is yeah but he wouldn't have likely been there a round or two later because of the QB supply and demand problem. So we overpaid for a project QB. Everyone knows this. To which I say "so what"? The fans may get restless, got that, but they're not running the team.

In the end it all comes down to whether the light comes on for Manuel or not. I never said or even implied it would take 5 years for Manuel to "merely capable of playing the position". I'm saying he won't be at his peak for 5 years. It takes several years for ALL QB's to achieve their peak. All I'm saying is because Manuel only started 2 years in college it's reasonable his growth chart is slower than a more experienced player and people need to understand that. Since you're actually a fan of another team in my opinion and get off on busting real Bills fans balls for whatever reason you're content to keep :deadhorse

[stuckincincy]

1. The NFL has bent over backwards to pump up the pass game. The result being that rookie QBs come into the league and can light it up. So that is the expectation.
2. Manual was a reach. One in a long line for the franchise since Kelly. How they, along with CLE, could misfire in QB choices for so many years is mystifying. They knew they were on dicey ground - hired Kolb.
3. Having selected Manuel, they piddled away valuable development time by installing a rah-rah quick-snap, no-huddle scheme. I wouldn't subject a rookie QB to that. And they bragged about it, hoping, I guess to juice up ticket sales. Support (yet another) new coaching staff.
4. They failed to get a rock of a blocking FB, which could have given Manual some time to scan the field to the extent of his abilities to do so, but would also have shored up the interior line's weakness. Would have helped the run game also. FB John Connor was available.
5. Sold the farm for the top-rated receiver in this year's draft. It's not possible to rate him after 3 games.
6. Manual simply is not connecting with his longer passes. Perhaps a few seconds' more time might help. Dunno. From what little I've seen they are an inaccurate version of former QB Jeff Blakes' "banana bombs."

[Fletch]

Have your opinions all you like, for the record you're wrong and I did nothing to cause such a response from you. Think what you want about me, I really don't care.

As to Manuel, the topic at hand, you've implied now that QBs peak at 5 years. I would argue that and since I prefer sticking to facts and not opinions when discussing these things, and since you cited no basis for that opinion of yours that you cited as a fact, let's take two of the best QBs in the game today and the two best over the last ten years at least, Brady and Manning. If you have alternate evidence feel free to throw it out there and maybe I'll come to your side in that QBs peak in five years. Until then ...

Assuming that there's some correlation between "peaking" and QB statistics, we can say that both QBs peaked in their 7th seasons and both played their best football from that point on thru their early to mid 30s. That's when I say that QBs peak, right around 30. It's a combination of experience and physical skills, if they get that far, that blend to make them peak. Would you disagree with any of that?

Prior to that, and this is MO, they don't have the experience to peak. In their late 20s they do and they are in their primes and both the physical and mental and experience all produce their maximum overall effect. They turn down not because of experience which usually keeps them hanging in there, but because they physical skills begin to fail them.

As to this comment of yours


If you don't really need one you can sometimes hit on a bargain. Most of the time though (90% or more) teams significantly overpay for QB's. Not my opinion, fact. So if you really need a guy and we did you're willing to overpay a round or even 2 to get what you think is the best prospect. That's what we did with Manuel. You can say "he should have been a 2nd or 3rd round pick". The answer is yeah but he wouldn't have likely been there a round or two later because of the QB supply and demand problem. So we overpaid for a project QB. Everyone knows this. To which I say "so what"? The fans may get restless, got that, but they're not running the team.

First of all the Pats haven't or did overpay for Brady and it's a reach to suggest that the Colts ever overpaid for Manning given what each did for their teams. Denver did, but look what it's done for them. People here argue with me when I insist that Mario was ridiculously overpaid, but he's getting more than Brady and hasn't even come close to making the kind of impact that Brady made for the Pats over the years. If you're going to overpay then QB is the position to overpay for, and not like Fitzpatrick but for a proven QB. I think that even a QB like Alex Smith whose contract was similar to Mario's would have made a significant difference here and one that Mario's failed to make. This fits into the overall discussion of how our team's money is spent.

1st round picks these days are on a rookie wage scale so there's no more overpaying in that way. On the rare occasion that a QB escapes into free agency sometimes they are overpaid, but we overpaid Fitzpatrick to a level that no team would have come close to offering, so we have a different situation here. That was just outright stupidity call it by any other name that you wish to. It was a dumbass decision.

Otherwise let's put it in perspective. Yes, in the 2013 draft there was a supply and demand problem. If we had a front office that actually knew what they were doing and didn't think with what's only immediately in front of them like they have for years, then they wouldn't wait until supply was at an apocalyptical low to draft at that position, would they? I mean does that seem smart to you? Why not draft a QB the year before? Why not recognize that it was half a miracle that Wilson slipped into the 3rd round and say "WTF, I can't believe he's still here" instead of taking a WR like Graham? The reason is because our front office doesn't know what it's doing, it has no plan to build this team, like many posters statements here after games they're purely reactionary. They can't foresee any issues, they have to be confronted with them directly at the end of a season and only then do they go and do something about it whether that's the right time and offseason for it or whether the year prior or year after might be much better and allow them to take advantage of what's out there that offseason rather than trying to make the nearly impossible happen.

It's not complicated, you build a team by going for the rich supply in the drafts and if you need a position that isn't rich then you wait a year. In this case they keep putting faith in QBs that people other than the team realize aren't going to do much and they wait until they can't possibly ignore the situation and then put themselves in a bad spot. That simply falls into the lack of being able to properly plan category.

2-3 years of doing that and you've got yourself a playoff team. That's what Polian did.

Why Whaley and anyone in the front office has any support at all in this forum at this point I will never ever understand.

I'm a fan of this team whether you want to believe it or not, again, I really don't care, it doesn't bother me if you want to take the angle that you do. As such I also realize that our front office is destroying this team and has beaten it down to record futility. You can't argue that. The difference between me and you is that I don't pretend to be satisfied with any of the foolery going on there whereas you might support a lot of it. I don't see any difference now than what they've been doing for 15 years.

You can argue that all you want, but if this team doesn't end up performing better than it has in the recent past you'll have no basis for your opinions in hindsight. So it may be best to wait before you start unleashing such statements against me or anyone, because at the end of the season I guarantee you that what you guys all construe as my complaining is going to look like child's play to what gets said here from December to April of next year or until they ****can the front office.

I just hope that Pegula has the wherewithal to pull the trigger. What has me worried is that he's Mr. Buffalo now, owns two teams, and clearly has lots of loyalties. If that spills over into how he runs the team and the team continues to become a jobs program for people with Buffalo ties then we're ****ed. I've said all along that that's more important than keeping the team here which is clearly a matter of opinion, but having more of the same into the foreseeable future would hardly be inspiring. It might be for you, again, that's a matter of my opinion, but I would think that any real fan of this team will be disheartened if he doesn't reach beyond "Buffalo" when he decides who's handling this team down the road and instead of loyalty decides to go for competence, experience, and proven results.

[Fletch]

5. Sold the farm for the top-rated receiver in this year's draft. It's not possible to rate him after 3 games.

I'll strongly disagree here.

If he were being evaluated as a traditional WR I would agree, but he's not.

No one can argue that he was brought on to make plays from essentially nothing. In other words it was his speed and moves that were supposed to be all the difference for him. Have we seen it, or has the age old statement about the speed of the game from college to the NFL seem to have once again played out?

I'd say the latter. Notice that I'm not saying that he'll never amount to anything, I think he'll be an OK WR just nowhere close to being a top 10 one on an annual basis.

Either way, what he's not doing is doing all this magic after the catch, which was the single biggest thing we were told he would do. The question is why not? I say that it's because he's not as fast in the NFL as he was at Clemson, on the field that is, and only because of the talent differential on the defensive side. He didn't put up huge games at Clemson against top defensive talent against him there either, so this was at least somewhat predictable.

Absolutely no one made the argument that his primary contributions would be made downfield on deep balls. Since he's not going to get any faster I'd say that we can start rating him immediately. That's not to say that he won't put up another 1,000 yards like that this season, I'm just not expecting it. If he does, and if much of that is yards after the catch, then the case will have been made. If not, and if he turns into a traditional receiver like that, same thing. But let's get there first. If he finishes with 750 yards, 4 TDs, and little YAC then he will not have done what everyone said he can do and there won't be much reason to expect it in the future. At that point he'll either become a solid traditional WR or he won't, but it's unlikely that he's going to become what they said he would at that point.

No one's stopping him making his legendary moves right now when he has the ball on shorter passes. But it hasn't happened yet.

[starrymessenger]

Good post, I agree with it. But let me tap your brain on this.

Everyone talks about what a great leader he is, how intelligent he is, great arm strength and physical/athletic traits, so then why do you think that he's incapable of playing better than he is? In essence, he has all the "tools," so what's the thing or things holding him back?

Anyone.

To answer your question Fletch, it's because all that we are constantly being told about his fantastic intangibles and physical attributes are blown way out of proportion, if not blatantly untrue.

[TacklingDummy]

Drafting QB's is the hardest thing to do for a desperate team. If you don't really need one you can sometimes hit on a bargain. Most of the time though (90% or more) teams significantly overpay for QB's. Not my opinion, fact. So if you really need a guy and we did you're willing to overpay a round or even 2 to get what you think is the best prospect.

The Bills overpay for a WR when they don't have a QB to get him the ball.

[stuckincincy]

I'll strongly disagree here.


Could you define what you mean by a "traditional" receiver?

[Bill Cody]

Have your opinions all you like, for the record you're wrong and I did nothing to cause such a response from you. Think what you want about me, I really don't care.
Your posts are long winded, extremely repetitive, relentlessly negative and boring. Nothing about what you say even hints at rooting for the Bills success. I call it like I see it: troll



you've implied now that QBs peak at 5 years. I would argue that and since I prefer sticking to facts and not opinions when discussing these things, and since you cited no basis for that opinion of yours that you cited as a fact, let's take two of the best QBs in the game today and the two best over the last ten years at least, Brady and Manning. If you have alternate evidence feel free to throw it out there and maybe I'll come to your side in that QBs peak in five years. Until then ...

Assuming that there's some correlation between "peaking" and QB statistics, we can say that both QBs peaked in their 7th seasons and both played their best football from that point on thru their early to mid 30s. That's when I say that QBs peak, right around 30. It's a combination of experience and physical skills, if they get that far, that blend to make them peak. Would you disagree with any of that?

Basing anything on 2 people proves nothing. But if those 2 future hall of famers took MORE than 5 years to peak then tell me again why we should be giving up on a very raw EJ after a year? That was my point.


First of all the Pats haven't or did overpay for Brady and it's a reach to suggest that the Colts ever overpaid for Manning given what each did for their teams. Denver did, but look what it's done for them. People here argue with me when I insist that Mario was ridiculously overpaid, but he's getting more than Brady and hasn't even come close to making the kind of impact that Brady made for the Pats over the years. If you're going to overpay then QB is the position to overpay for, and not like Fitzpatrick but for a proven QB. I think that even a QB like Alex Smith whose contract was similar to Mario's would have made a significant difference here and one that Mario's failed to make. This fits into the overall discussion of how our team's money is spent.

Brady was the greatest value pick in the history of the league. Peyton Manning is a top 10 QB all time. Getting a Brady in the 6th round is pure luck, drafting a Manning requires you be the worst team in the league. neither situation is remotely relevant to anything with the Bills. Nice try.


1st round picks these days are on a rookie wage scale so there's no more overpaying in that way.

I was referring to overpaying in terms of draft position. Try to keep up.


On the rare occasion that a QB escapes into free agency sometimes they are overpaid, but we overpaid Fitzpatrick to a level that no team would have come close to offering, so we have a different situation here. That was just outright stupidity call it by any other name that you wish to. It was a dumbass decision.
Not really. Fitz was a stop gap. The front office paid him the going rate but continued to look for a long term solution. If Cam Newton had been available he would have been a Bill.


Otherwise let's put it in perspective. Yes, in the 2013 draft there was a supply and demand problem. If we had a front office that actually knew what they were doing and didn't think with what's only immediately in front of them like they have for years, then they wouldn't wait until supply was at an apocalyptical low to draft at that position, would they? I mean does that seem smart to you? Why not draft a QB the year before? Why not recognize that it was half a miracle that Wilson slipped into the 3rd round and say "WTF, I can't believe he's still here" instead of taking a WR like Graham? The reason is because our front office doesn't know what it's doing, it has no plan to build this team, like many posters statements here after games they're purely reactionary. They can't foresee any issues, they have to be confronted with them directly at the end of a season and only then do they go and do something about it whether that's the right time and offseason for it or whether the year prior or year after might be much better and allow them to take advantage of what's out there that offseason rather than trying to make the nearly impossible happen.

A lot of teams would like a mulligan on Wilson.


It's not complicated, you build a team by going for the rich supply in the drafts and if you need a position that isn't rich then you wait a year. In this case they keep putting faith in QBs that people other than the team realize aren't going to do much and they wait until they can't possibly ignore the situation and then put themselves in a bad spot. That simply falls into the lack of being able to properly plan category.

I bet you're awesome at Maddon.


2-3 years of doing that and you've got yourself a playoff team. That's what Polian did.

And there's been a ton of GM's in the history of the league like Bill Polian right?


Why Whaley and anyone in the front office has any support at all in this forum at this point I will never ever understand.

Some of us support him because we support the team and like to focus on the positive. Try it sometime and you might escape from mommy's basement.



I'm a fan of this team whether you want to believe it or not, again, I really don't care, it doesn't bother me if you want to take the angle that you do.
Trust me I don't care about you either.


As such I also realize that our front office is destroying this team and has beaten it down to record futility. You can't argue that. The difference between me and you is that I don't pretend to be satisfied with any of the foolery going on there whereas you might support a lot of it. I don't see any difference now than what they've been doing for 15 years.

You can argue that all you want, but if this team doesn't end up performing better than it has in the recent past you'll have no basis for your opinions in hindsight. So it may be best to wait before you start unleashing such statements against me or anyone, because at the end of the season I guarantee you that what you guys all construe as my complaining is going to look like child's play to what gets said here from December to April of next year or until they ****can the front office.

I just hope that Pegula has the wherewithal to pull the trigger. What has me worried is that he's Mr. Buffalo now, owns two teams, and clearly has lots of loyalties. If that spills over into how he runs the team and the team continues to become a jobs program for people with Buffalo ties then we're ****ed. I've said all along that that's more important than keeping the team here which is clearly a matter of opinion, but having more of the same into the foreseeable future would hardly be inspiring. It might be for you, again, that's a matter of my opinion, but I would think that any real fan of this team will be disheartened if he doesn't reach beyond "Buffalo" when he decides who's handling this team down the road and instead of loyalty decides to go for competence, experience, and proven results.

Put in your application for GM. I'm sure the Bills will be impressed with your football knowledge and want to hire you on the spot.

[justasportsfan]

Everyone talks about what a great leader he is, how intelligent he is, great arm strength and physical/athletic traits, so then why do you think that he's incapable of playing better than he is? In essence, he has all the "tools," so what's the thing or things holding him back?

Anyone. Some people are able to translate that leadership , intelligence, tools into their game. A couple of players that come to mind who are on the team are Kyle Williams and FJax.

Time will tell is EJ can follow suit or is just another leader like Kelsay was. Great talker but couldn't translate it on the field in terms of productivity.

[Bill Cody]

Some people are able to translate that leadership , intelligence, tools into their game. A couple of players that come to mind who are on the team are Kyle Williams and FJax.

Time will tell is EJ can follow suit or is just another leader like Kelsay was. Great talker but couldn't translate it on the field in terms of productivity.

great point

[Meathead]

kelsay was a good not great player here. its sad that hes remembered otherwise due to things that really werent his fault


what things?

one, that he got over-payed on that one contract. the team decided to dump money on him for who knows why, i mean he was good, no worse than an average starting nfl de, but not worth the money they offered. whats he gonna do, say no? then later in what i believe was an attempt to make amends, he takes a contract i thought was a little lower than he should have and that fully favored the bills in terms of options. at that point he was a bonafide nfl starting de, a valuable commodity. he had his limitations but still woulda commanded a nice chunk of garumteed money elsewhere, yet he bends over backwards to stay here even when its disadvantageous to himself. but does anybody remember that? course not

two that he gave lb a shot and was terrible in coverage. i guess thats technically his fault since he couldnt cover a ham sandwich with a baseball field tarp. but he did what the coaches asked him to and it didnt work out. they stopped asking him to cover on any regular basis and let him stay at the line and all he did was lead the team in tackles most of that season (and the next, btw). but all ppl remember is some nobody tight end ripping off a big gainer with kelsay flailing after him like a big goofy herman munster. every other part of his game and team representation disappears due to that one hilariously annoying image

(bonus) three, he also was good at applying qb pressure but bad at finishing ie getting the sacks. it was admittedly frustrating to see him get so close and not be able to get the qb down, but he did get there and it did matter. even at his inflated salary he wasnt getting paid sack master money, his pressures provided proper value imo. nobody ever thinks of that. the interpretation of him failing bc all those pressures didnt turn into more sacks isnt really his fault either

so an average starting nfl de who gets a lot of tackles and can routinely push the pocket but gets few sacks. and oh btw he was also a model ambassador to the franchise in every way imaginable

yeah kelsay sucks. not really fair. but hey life aint fair. and then youre chris kelsay

[trapezeus]

making a decision on a qb with a small sample size results in the c ontract we paid to fitz.

its not fun to be patient, but it doesn't seem like there are a lot of other options. orton is no better over his career than ej is right now. that's what the stats say and what his journeyman status suggests.

[DesertFox24]

I'm not familiar with Middlekauf's comment re: Tannehill and EJ but his claim that he is an ex NFL scout is 100% legitimate fwiw.

He did not like EJ during the draft and is one of those guys that will hate a player no matter. Someone called him out on Kaep and he said something along the lines that I regret that mistake on my part.

I followed a lot of these guys during the draft a few years ago because it was nice to see an ex scouts take on things that scouts look for but he is trying to be another NFL talking head and make twitter into a tv gig.

I personally do not blame the guy, but he is an idiot and an ex scout for a reason.

I know those guys have it hard but they make a decent living if they are any good at what they do, (decent more than house hold avg income of 44k).

[justasportsfan]

great point
Another one that comes to mind was Tebow.

Well liked in the locker room, had the physical tools but couldn't read offenses and wasnt accurate.

The difference between EJ and Tebow is that Tebow wasn't scared to throw or run the ball.

[Bill Cody]

Another one that comes to mind was Tebow.

Well liked in the locker room, had the physical tools but couldn't read offenses and wasnt accurate.

The difference between EJ and Tebow is that Tebow wasn't scared to throw or run the ball.

:shoothead:

[DraftBoy]

He did not like EJ during the draft and is one of those guys that will hate a player no matter. Someone called him out on Kaep and he said something along the lines that I regret that mistake on my part.

I followed a lot of these guys during the draft a few years ago because it was nice to see an ex scouts take on things that scouts look for but he is trying to be another NFL talking head and make twitter into a tv gig.

I personally do not blame the guy, but he is an idiot and an ex scout for a reason.

I know those guys have it hard but they make a decent living if they are any good at what they do, (decent more than house hold avg income of 44k).

He was never a fan of EJ, that is true, but neither were most of the draft analysts that year. He was the "best" in what is turning out to be a bad QB class and very few had a 1st Round grade on him (Full Disclosure: I didn't). I think too often fans see a negative thought or opinion and immediately start talking about hating this player or that one. I can't speak for Middlekauf's opinion on EJ currently. I know that his draft analysis and thoughts on EJ were solid from what I remember. He didn't seem to have any bias against him, and he was a West Coast based scout so not sure why he would have a bias against him. He's on the radio in California now, so not sure he is much trying to be a NFL talking head as much as he is already on the airwaves. Don't know about TV stuff.

[DraftBoy]

Another one that comes to mind was Tebow.

Well liked in the locker room, had the physical tools but couldn't read offenses and wasnt accurate.

The difference between EJ and Tebow is that Tebow wasn't scared to throw or run the ball.

Are you saying well liked in the locker room in college or the NFL? Because I've heard and seen reports that he wasn't that well liked in the NFL. Not saying he was hated or a cancer, but his locker room persona and reputation is almost exclusively based on what he did at Florida and not in the NFL.

[Thurmal]

Let's be real here. EJ is probably the worst starter in the league.

[Fletch]

Let's be real here. EJ is probably the worst starter in the league.

He's definitely near the bottom and showing no signs of moving upwards at all.

[Fletch]

Basing anything on 2 people proves nothing. But if those 2 future hall of famers took MORE than 5 years to peak then tell me again why we should be giving up on a very raw EJ after a year? That was my point.

This has been explained many times over. I can do it again, but then I'll have everyone telling me I beat a dead horse. How is it that everyone else calls it beating a dead horse and yet you are clueless?

Otherwise, I didn't base anything on just two QBs, I simply took two as an example. I'll tell you what, show me all the QBs that peaked five years into their careers? Most QBs peak at between 28 and 34 and the prime for QBs is a little shifted to the right than it is for other players. So unless a QB got his first start at the age of 24 and peaked right at the 5 year mark, sorry, I'm just responding to your obviously unresearched and ill-founded opinion that QBs peak five seasons in.

Provide some basis for your points. On this one I guarantee you that you won't find many.


Put in your application for GM. I'm sure the Bills will be impressed with your football knowledge and want to hire you on the spot.

Seriously, they could poll drunk fans after games and the outcome would be no worse.


A lot of teams would like a mulligan on Wilson.

Right, and most of those teams are run a whole lot better than this one is. Most of those teams also haven't desperately needed a QB for 20 years either. Instead our crack front office takes Manuel in the 1st round. Meanwhile, let's not ignore the idiocy of drafting Graham instead. Can't have that, it doesn't sit well with you and your oatmeal brain.


Trust me I don't care about you either.

At least we agree on that.

[DesertFox24]

Draftboy,

I have no problem with him saying he likes a player more than another but to say EJ worst starting qb in the league when factually he has more wins and has been better than a lot of the people he said were better proves the guy is just trying to get hits and does not know much in my opinion.

People try to say stuff like this guy will never be a player and no matter what the player does they will hate on them to try and prop themselves up.

That is where I lose respect for them. Additionally I think it is stupid to compare any player in their first three years or say a player is bad especially after 13 games.

My point is if these guys want to be taken serious by intelligent people and not idiots then they should learn how to properly critique a player and stop trying to prove they were right. This is accomplished by detailing the good and bad of a player and detailing what they need to see for the player to become viable. Not blindly saying they suck

[Bill Cody]

This has been explained many times over. I can do it again, but then I'll have everyone telling me I beat a dead horse. How is it that everyone else calls it beating a dead horse and yet you are clueless?

Otherwise, I didn't base anything on just two QBs, I simply took two as an example. I'll tell you what, show me all the QBs that peaked five years into their careers? Most QBs peak at between 28 and 34 and the prime for QBs is a little shifted to the right than it is for other players. So unless a QB got his first start at the age of 24 and peaked right at the 5 year mark, sorry, I'm just responding to your obviously unresearched and ill-founded opinion that QBs peak five seasons in.

Provide some basis for your points. On this one I guarantee you that you won't find many.

One more time because you are clearly slow, the point was not to give up on a QB after a year. Ask mommy to explain if you can't get it. And your examples suck.




Seriously, they could poll drunk fans after games and the outcome would be no worse.

no worse than you? I seriously doubt that




Right, and most of those teams are run a whole lot better than this one is. Most of those teams also haven't desperately needed a QB for 20 years either. Instead our crack front office takes Manuel in the 1st round. Meanwhile, let's not ignore the idiocy of drafting Graham instead. Can't have that, it doesn't sit well with you and your oatmeal brain.

Anyone can be a critic. It takes no talent. And not on a soul on this board defends the Bills draft record. But you could literally pull examples of draft mistakes from every draft for every team. You make no sense.

[Fletch]

My point is if these guys want to be taken serious by intelligent people and not idiots then they should learn how to properly critique a player and stop trying to prove they were right. This is accomplished by detailing the good and bad of a player and detailing what they need to see for the player to become viable. Not blindly saying they suck

Well taken, and I know that you were talking to Thurmal's statement, but if people want to be taken seriously by intelligent people and not idiots, as you put it, then how about learning how to properly critique a player, again, as you put it, which it would seem to me to not be done properly if that player doesn't work out. Manuel won't work out and there's piles of evidence to defend that and it's all been provided here before by myself and others. You choose to ignore it, and yet you talk about proper critique.

You and others like you have been saying the same things about other QBs on our team for years. Edwards for example and even Fitzpatrick. Everyone says that we need to trust the team because they know what they're doing.

Here's the thing, if Manuel doesn't work out, it's going to be impossible for you or anyone taking your position to then come back and say that you did a proper critique. You obviously will not have.

We can learn from how Manuel played at FSU and the coaches attempts and finally giving up on trying to improve him. Some of us choose not to and ignore that but does that seem smart and intelligent? There is a thing called learning from others' mistakes. This team isn't close to mastering that principle.

Blindly insisting that we don't know and we'll have to wait and see when there is mounds of evidence before us is hardly intelligent, it's another way for saying that only when it becomes blatant will those people be convinced. Unfortunately that's not the kind of intelligence that builds Super Bowl champions.

[k-oneputt]

Lets see if he can step up today.

It's time to stop babying him and take the training wheels off.

He either starts making routine NFL throws or he hits the bench.

[DraftBoy]

Draftboy,

I have no problem with him saying he likes a player more than another but to say EJ worst starting qb in the league when factually he has more wins and has been better than a lot of the people he said were better proves the guy is just trying to get hits and does not know much in my opinion.

The concept of wins is factual, but I'm not sure he's been better than really anybody said. He's struggled a good bit and only had moments of flash. Week 1 and 2 were promising but Week 3 showed some clear regression that has to concern. Inconsistency was one of the main issues people had with EJ coming out.


People try to say stuff like this guy will never be a player and no matter what the player does they will hate on them to try and prop themselves up.

Yes they do, same as fans do.


That is where I lose respect for them. Additionally I think it is stupid to compare any player in their first three years or say a player is bad especially after 13 games.

That's his job though. He's not being paid to sit back and say we have to wait to make a determination. You can lose respect for him (which is fine) but at least understand where he was in his analysis during the draft and why he is making snap judgments now. It's because fans demand it.


My point is if these guys want to be taken serious by intelligent people and not idiots then they should learn how to properly critique a player and stop trying to prove they were right. This is accomplished by detailing the good and bad of a player and detailing what they need to see for the player to become viable. Not blindly saying they suck

That's not what people want. I would like nothing better than a strict X's and O's TV show that goes over game changing mistakes week in and week out. I find the idea of breaking down routes, scheme, blitzes, and coverage fascinating. However those shows universally do poorly in ratings and its not what people want. As a member of the media if you want to be successful (on TV, radio, or in writing [print or blog]) you have to dumb it way down and make statements that may seem outrageous to some. It's the nature of what fans have created.

- - - Updated - - -


Lets see if he can step up today.

It's time to stop babying him and take the training wheels off.

He either starts making routine NFL throws or he hits the bench.

He made routine and difficult throws in Weeks 1 and 2.

[k-oneputt]

yeah, just not very well.

[DraftBoy]

yeah, just not very well.

Yea that 60+ Completion Percentage, 7+ YPA, and 90+ QB Rating are clearly showing he didn't make routine throws well in Week 1 or 2. Not liking EJ is fine, I'm not a fan of his, but at least attempt to base your critiques in reality.

Now go ahead and make your ball placement counter because this argument is predictable.

[k-oneputt]

Well what did you think of those downfield throws ??????

Can you see or are you listening to the radio.

[DraftBoy]

Well what did you think of those downfield throws ??????

Can you see or are you listening to the radio.

In today's game? I don't have the ability to watch, just following along. I was able to watch Week 1 and 2.

[k-oneputt]

Anything over ten yards you can forget it.

Twenty yard throw in the air is damn near impossible.

[k-oneputt]

If you can't watch the game then stop talking out of your ass.

- - - Updated - - -

and he nearly got Hogan killed today.

[justasportsfan]

In today's game? I don't have the ability to watch, just following along. I was able to watch Week 1 and 2.

He's brutal to watch. I want Ej so much to succeed but he looks like a lost pup

[stuckincincy]

In today's game? I don't have the ability to watch, just following along. I was able to watch Week 1 and 2.

I'm using CBS sports and NFL.com's game trackers. I find them useful even if you don't get the game - the steady stream of stats tells one about the flow of the contest.

[DraftBoy]

If you can't watch the game then stop talking out of your ass.

- - - Updated - - -

and he nearly got Hogan killed today.

That's why all my comments related to the games I did watch...are you having comprehension issues?

- - - Updated - - -


He's brutal to watch. I want Ej so much to succeed but he looks like a lost pup

He's infuriating to watch, especially when you look at what he did in Week 1 and 2 which was solid QB play.

[k-oneputt]

He was adequate the first two weeks.

Keep opening your mouth DB and remove all doubt.

[DraftBoy]

I'm using CBS sports and NFL.com's game trackers. I find them useful even if you don't get the game - the steady stream of stats tells one about the flow of the contest.

I could watch if I was home, I have the ticket. Just have to work last weekend and this one so I'm at the office following along on the game tracker. I can't see the actual plays so its hard for me to comment positively or negatively on anything other than it being frustrating to be up early and let it slip away.

[Novacane]

I've seen enough. He's the same QB he was a year ago. He's not going to get any better

[DraftBoy]

He was adequate the first two weeks.

Agreed, thanks for confirming and letting go of the ridiculous position you were trying to defend originally.

[k-oneputt]

My position is EJ sucks and isn't a NFL qb.

DISPUTE THAT !

[DraftBoy]

My position is EJ sucks and isn't a NFL qb.

DISPUTE THAT !

Nobody is arguing with you about that.

[k-oneputt]

you are with your stupid EJ talk. He wasn't good the first two weeks. He was adaquate and now he flat out sucks.

[DraftBoy]

you are with your stupid EJ talk. He wasn't good the first two weeks. He was adaquate and now he flat out sucks.

Show me where I said EJ is a NFL starting caliber QB anywhere. You're making things up to fit your narrative.

[k-oneputt]

My Narrative is EJ sucks, and you are giving out all these meaningless stats.

I don't need your stats. Just watch the games he makes it so obvious even you with your limited knowledge should be able to see it.