what makes this feel ok?

[trapezeus]

We are where we are now with the QB change. What makes you feel like it was a success or worth it?

1. an 8-8 record or better?
2. a playoff appearance
3. a playoff win?

For me, shortterm, if we can avoid handing over a top 10 pick, it will have been worth saving face.

in the long term, i don't see the benefit aside from not looking foolish. If Kyle Orton is the .500 qb we know his stats to say he is, i still don't know if i feel like he's the answer long term. and the rest of the team is built to win now. So short of orton winning the superbowl for us, i don't see how this change helps us. i feel like next year's draft onward will be very difficult for whoever is running the team. keep building and hope orton is servicable or tear it down, fire everyone and start over asking bills fans to be patient again.

both scenarios irritate me.

[better days]

After 14 years out of the playoffs, I think just getting in will make Orton starting OK.

Especially since the Browns have our first pick in the draft.

[The Jokeman]

We are where we are now with the QB change. What makes you feel like it was a success or worth it?

1. an 8-8 record or better?
2. a playoff appearance
3. a playoff win?

For me, shortterm, if we can avoid handing over a top 10 pick, it will have been worth saving face.

in the long term, i don't see the benefit aside from not looking foolish. If Kyle Orton is the .500 qb we know his stats to say he is, i still don't know if i feel like he's the answer long term. and the rest of the team is built to win now. So short of orton winning the superbowl for us, i don't see how this change helps us. i feel like next year's draft onward will be very difficult for whoever is running the team. keep building and hope orton is servicable or tear it down, fire everyone and start over asking bills fans to be patient again.

both scenarios irritate me.
It might energize the franchise and maybe allow guys to stick around (see Spikes and/or Spiller) a few more years when their contracts ends. Yet you're right if the ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl over the next few years that likely won't happen. So I will applaud the move as a Bills fan who so wants to be better than we've been over the last few years but I question the benefit of this for the long term. As is reliving 1998/1999 realy worth having to relive 2000-2013 that followed?

[imbondz]

at this rate/stage, our goal should be not to lose 3 games in a row, that's the ceiling.


Has Orten ever been in the playoffs as a starter? We are delusional to think a 31 yr old, 35-35 career QB, who just retired 5 months ago, is going to come in and magically win more than he loses, and be a playoff QB . I still have more hope w him starting than EJ, but it's like 1-1.2% more hope. Obviously I hope i'm 100% wrong.

[feldspar]

Say whatever you want, but the Bills are technically first in the division right now, and it's one-quarter of the way through the season.

You play the guy that gives you the best chance to win, and there is nothing else apart from that.

We'll see what Orton does, but I don't see any benefit of sticking with EJ at this point. The correct decision was made IMO no matter how it turns out. The Bills HAD to see what the team would look like with Orton at the helm. I do not second-guess this decision after seeing how Manuel has been playing. It's all about competition. EJ has been dragging this team down.

[The Jokeman]

at this rate/stage, our goal should be not to lose 3 games in a row, that's the ceiling.


Has Orten ever been in the playoffs as a starter? We are delusional to think a 31 yr old, 35-35 career QB, who just retired 5 months ago, is going to come in and magically win more than he loses, and be a playoff QB . I still have more hope w him starting than EJ, but it's like 1-1.2% more hope. Obviously I hope i'm 100% wrong.
If look at http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00/gamelog/s it would appear that Orton has never appeared in an NFL playoff game.

[The Jokeman]

Say whatever you want, but the Bills are technically first in the division right now, and it's one-quarter of the way through the season.

You play the guy that gives you the best chance to win, and there is nothing else apart from that.

We'll see what Orton does, but I don't see any benefit of sticking with EJ at this point. The correct decision was made IMO no matter how it turns out. The Bills HAD to see what the team would look like with Orton at the helm. I do not second-guess this decision after seeing how Manuel has been playing. It's all about competition. EJ has been dragging this team down.
In one spot you applaud the Bills for being in 1st place and then dismiss EJ's contribution. I understand he hasn't been as good in the last two games as he was in his first two. Yet if you look at the history of QBs most do have struggles losing games. I remember Rodger's first year and he had a 4 game stretch where the Packers lost each game and the team didn't make the playoffs. Yet stuck with Rodgers and as they say the rest is history.

[Meathead]

with so many young guys it would be enormously beneficial for them to have the experience of a playoff game or even just a realistic run trying to get in. it would also help attract free agents and keep more of the ones we got

[trapezeus]

part of me would just hate seeing whaley, brandon get credit for putting the team in a horrible bind. yes, orton probably will have a little more success than EJ. But they picked him.

These guys have been with the team a very long time and regardless of their input, people don't have 6 year careers (whaleY) or 15 year careers (brandon) in their positions on teams that have been this bad. It's really inexcusable.

yeah, i want the bills to win, but even if orton can do the unthinkable and just crank out the wins, the top of one bills drive needs to go. this change at QB should be the most damning in years worth of incompetence. No more shuffling blame around to other people. These guys are the problem.

and that's where its kind of depressing to think regardless of how this season is going, we could be looking at another rebuild on a team that had some pieces to it. unlike the jauron and gailey teams that were still largely talentless.

[feldspar]

at this rate/stage, our goal should be not to lose 3 games in a row, that's the ceiling.


Has Orten ever been in the playoffs as a starter? We are delusional to think a 31 yr old, 35-35 career QB, who just retired 5 months ago, is going to come in and magically win more than he loses, and be a playoff QB . I still have more hope w him starting than EJ, but it's like 1-1.2% more hope. Obviously I hope i'm 100% wrong.

Orton never retired.

And he BROUGHT his team to the playoffs as a rookie.

Delusional would be sticking with EJ Manuel right now and thinking he's our best bet. At least now it's interesting again. Nobody else is really pulling away from the pack in our division. Did you see Brady play like horse-**** last night?

[The Jokeman]

part of me would just hate seeing whaley, brandon get credit for putting the team in a horrible bind. yes, orton probably will have a little more success than EJ. But they picked him.

These guys have been with the team a very long time and regardless of their input, people don't have 6 year careers (whaleY) or 15 year careers (brandon) in their positions on teams that have been this bad. It's really inexcusable.

yeah, i want the bills to win, but even if orton can do the unthinkable and just crank out the wins, the top of one bills drive needs to go. this change at QB should be the most damning in years worth of incompetence. No more shuffling blame around to other people. These guys are the problem.

and that's where its kind of depressing to think regardless of how this season is going, we could be looking at another rebuild on a team that had some pieces to it. unlike the jauron and gailey teams that were still largely talentless.

Why do people hate Brandon so much? His role is basically the marketing man for the team. I don't think he has any barring on the football decisions. Those are all on Whaley and while I question the trade for Watkins most of his moves thus far to me look better than bad. The EJ move is two sided. One sided it hurts we took him and he hasn't lived up to his draft status. The second side is he looks like he was the best QB available in the draft so maybe he did the best decision. Also it helps he got Woods and Alonso out of that draft. As well as Williams, Meeks and Gragg.

[TheBrownBear]

9-7 and/or playoffs at a minimum.

[feldspar]

In one spot you applaud the Bills for being in 1st place and then dismiss EJ's contribution. I understand he hasn't been as good in the last two games as he was in his first two. Yet if you look at the history of QBs most do have struggles losing games. I remember Rodger's first year and he had a 4 game stretch where the Packers lost each game and the team didn't make the playoffs. Yet stuck with Rodgers and as they say the rest is history.

I didn't "applaud the Bills." I merely stated a fact. The Bills are leading the division...it's a three-way tie record-wise, but they would win the tiebreaker at this time. Point in fact.

And we didn't win either of the first two games because of EJ Manuel. We certainly lost to the Texans because of him, no matter what anybody says. Played terribly against the Chargers as well.

Please do not bring Aaron Rodgers into this. That would be ridiculous.

The guy hasn't earned the right to start on this team right now, that's for sure. He had zero competition after Kolb went down before the season started last year. Freakin' Thad Lewis played just as well if not better when he was in there. Now Manuel has competition, and he lost...he lost fair and square and has nobody to blame but himself. Anybody that has been watching the Bills games this year with their eyes open can see that. We certainly don't owe him an unconditional chance to develop no matter how poorly he plays.

[justasportsfan]

Why do people hate Brandon so much? His role is basically the marketing man for the team. I don't think he has any barring on the football decisions. Those are all on Whaley and while I question the trade for Watkins most of his moves thus far to me look better than bad. The EJ move is two sided. One sided it hurts we took him and he hasn't lived up to his draft status. The second side is he looks like he was the best QB available in the draft so maybe he did the best decision. Also it helps he got Woods and Alonso out of that draft. As well as Williams, Meeks and Gragg.

it isn't clear as to how much of an input Russ had in personnel decisions in the past . But since he was on the team, might as well blame him for Maybin, Losman, Jauron, Fitz, Gailey,etc. If the bills fail based on who he hired and kept since becoming Pres/CEO he should get the blame, but if the team succeeds, he should not get credit. :idunno:

[trapezeus]

Why do people hate Brandon so much? His role is basically the marketing man for the team. I don't think he has any barring on the football decisions. Those are all on Whaley and while I question the trade for Watkins most of his moves thus far to me look better than bad. The EJ move is two sided. One sided it hurts we took him and he hasn't lived up to his draft status. The second side is he looks like he was the best QB available in the draft so maybe he did the best decision. Also it helps he got Woods and Alonso out of that draft. As well as Williams, Meeks and Gragg.

Brandon was ralph's smithers. he is weaselly and gets too much credit for marketing genius. Selling a game to a different city isn't good business and it didn't even work. and he still renewed it. he said he was going to leave no stop unturned and they went marrone very quickly. Other teams looking for a coach at the time were the eagles, cardinals, bears, chiefs and chargers. All teams with better outlooks long term than us.

Only the the browns (rob chudzinski) and jags (gus bradley) are in worse shape than us. Honestly how does that ineptitude not fall on brandon when he said he was going to fix it. Five other teams can get it right? we can't? and we had the blankest slate of all those teams at the QB position. it was up to the GM and the president to put a coach in a position to succeed and they didn't. and they want to say other people didn't get it right?

That is why this team will always be terrible with brandon. he makes big mistakes, blames others, fires them, and then repeats his mistakes. why would competent people want to be on the one team that operates completely different from the other 31. it makes no sense.

[BOBM253]

Unfortunately EJ was a big mistake. I like the guy as a person but he's not an NFL caliber QB. Any veteran QB would be better than him. If its Orton, then so be it. Worry about the long term down the road. We really had no choice. I'm all onboard with Orton.

[The Jokeman]

Brandon was ralph's smithers. he is weaselly and gets too much credit for marketing genius. Selling a game to a different city isn't good business and it didn't even work. and he still renewed it. he said he was going to leave no stop unturned and they went marrone very quickly. Other teams looking for a coach at the time were the eagles, cardinals, bears, chiefs and chargers. All teams with better outlooks long term than us.

Only the the browns (rob chudzinski) and jags (gus bradley) are in worse shape than us. Honestly how does that ineptitude not fall on brandon when he said he was going to fix it. Five other teams can get it right? we can't? and we had the blankest slate of all those teams at the QB position. it was up to the GM and the president to put a coach in a position to succeed and they didn't. and they want to say other people didn't get it right?

That is why this team will always be terrible with brandon. he makes big mistakes, blames others, fires them, and then repeats his mistakes. why would competent people want to be on the one team that operates completely different from the other 31. it makes no sense.

Look back, what other options did the Bills have at fixing the QB position? I guess you could argue we could have taken the path the Tampa Bay Bucs took but I don't see their situation that much better than ours. Also I think you forgot to mention the Raiders as worse run organizations.

[trapezeus]

it isn't clear as to how much of an input Russ had in personnel decisions in the past . But since he was on the team, might as well blame him for Maybin, Losman, Jauron, Fitz, Gailey,etc. If the bills fail based on who he hired and kept since becoming Pres/CEO he should get the blame, but if the team succeeds, he should not get credit. :idunno:

i know you love this angle that a senior manager just sat around and watched everyone else run their job. brandon was defacto owner during the end of ralph. let's not even saddle brandon with jauron years. but when he was the prominent face trying to find a coach and GM, he trotted out buddy nix. He trotted out gailey. retreads that no one liked as a choice. he was more than vocal about how much he liked trading for watkins. he spoke loudly about how he supported his GM picking EJ. He's stressed continuity just like his mentor. He said "no stone left unturned" and we got the 6th best option of the 8 coaches replaced that year.

true, we don't know how much input he has, but he didn't stop any of these mistakes as the CEO. That's what the position is about. Donahoe had better success in a shorter time and simply missed getting a qb. he got cut. Why is brandon so untouchable? and why would anyone defend him?

[The Jokeman]

I didn't "applaud the Bills." I merely stated a fact. The Bills are leading the division...it's a three-way tie record-wise, but they would win the tiebreaker at this time. Point in fact.

And we didn't win either of the first two games because of EJ Manuel. We certainly lost to the Texans because of him, no matter what anybody says. Played terribly against the Chargers as well.

Please do not bring Aaron Rodgers into this. That would be ridiculous.

The guy hasn't earned the right to start on this team right now, that's for sure. He had zero competition after Kolb went down before the season started last year. Freakin' Thad Lewis played just as well if not better when he was in there. Now Manuel has competition, and he lost...he lost fair and square and has nobody to blame but himself. Anybody that has been watching the Bills games this year with their eyes open can see that. We certainly don't owe him an unconditional chance to develop no matter how poorly he plays.

We owe it to the long term status of the franchise to see what he has is my argument. I agree he's been horrible the last two games. Yet I've seen what I deem worse QB play by other NFL QBs and they don't get benched. Time will tell how good/bad this decision is. As a fan that wants to see this team become an above average team year after year and am not sure that helps if think Orton is going to turn around this team this year only.

[trapezeus]

Look back, what other options did the Bills have at fixing the QB position? I guess you could argue we could have taken the path the Tampa Bay Bucs took but I don't see their situation that much better than ours. Also I think you forgot to mention the Raiders as worse run organizations.

oakland kind of stands on an island. we are the island next door. it's just that they made us so irrelevant at 7-9/6-10 most fans of the NFL don't care about us. Oakland is enjoyably bad. oh, and they were in the superbowl this millennium.

I think our QB situation is a result of several bad decisions. all of which brandon has overseen. until you have a top 5 qb, you should be drafting qb's routinely. but the bills see mediocre play and the settle on the journeyman. that's consistently happened. i bet you with brandon that if orton is .500, they'll avoid drafting a qb again and tell us, oh, it's fine. we just need a couple more pieces elsewhere.

[The Jokeman]

i know you love this angle that a senior manager just sat around and watched everyone else run their job. brandon was defacto owner during the end of ralph. let's not even saddle brandon with jauron years. but when he was the prominent face trying to find a coach and GM, he trotted out buddy nix. He trotted out gailey. retreads that no one liked as a choice. he was more than vocal about how much he liked trading for watkins. he spoke loudly about how he supported his GM picking EJ. He's stressed continuity just like his mentor. He said "no stone left unturned" and we got the 6th best option of the 8 coaches replaced that year.

true, we don't know how much input he has, but he didn't stop any of these mistakes as the CEO. That's what the position is about. Donahoe had better success in a shorter time and simply missed getting a qb. he got cut. Why is brandon so untouchable? and why would anyone defend him?

Because Brandon doesn't alienate fans with comments and/or he's not thought as an outsider.

[The Jokeman]

oakland kind of stands on an island. we are the island next door. it's just that they made us so irrelevant at 7-9/6-10 most fans of the NFL don't care about us. Oakland is enjoyably bad. oh, and they were in the superbowl this millennium.

I think our QB situation is a result of several bad decisions. all of which brandon has overseen. until you have a top 5 qb, you should be drafting qb's routinely. but the bills see mediocre play and the settle on the journeyman. that's consistently happened. i bet you with brandon that if orton is .500, they'll avoid drafting a qb again and tell us, oh, it's fine. we just need a couple more pieces elsewhere.

I'll agree with you that we've done horribly bad at the way we've approached the QB the last decade. My biggest concern is that this feels like another knee jerk situation and/or a band aid on a cut that is so much deeper that Orton alone can't heal. Manuel might have been as long as the rest of the team improved with him. As this feels like RJ losing his job to Flutie, Edwards losing his job to Fitzpatrick all over again.

[Jry44]

What annoys me with this whole thing is that more wasn't done last season in signing a solid vet for Ej to sit and develop behind. And I feel like that move happened much to late this season, whuch may be why Marrone blew up on Whaley. By the time a vet for Ej to learn from was signed, it was too late to go back to grooming him. Hopefully he can still develop and not be a total lost cause.

[Fletch]

We are where we are now with the QB change. What makes you feel like it was a success or worth it?

Win or lose the games should become a lot more watchable and entertaining.

If it turns out that Orton can't hit WRs downfield any better then we're screwed from an entertainment perspective.

[trapezeus]

totally agree that what we are seeing is just a stop gap, and because they didn't have any better answers and were all in on EJ, they've made this bed. And the answer going foward is no first round pick next year and limited options to get the team to be better. that is on management. i can't imagine a rookie first time HC was making calls on QBs in his first draft when there is practically tenured GM and CEO on the team.

If you are the CEO and you don't have control over any of these decisions, you aren't a good CEO. and for every position on every team that gets judged by results, brandon has shown he isn't a good CEO for fans. he's good at gaming the expenses to provide the bare minimum to get seats filled in the first half and take a nice salary for himself, the trust, and the other senior execs like littman.

it's time for the team to have a CEO who thinks winning will generate revenue, generate interest, and generate a championship. it's a lot more risk in that approach, but it is the purpose of playing the games. not praying that maybe this time we'll not suck as much as last year.

[Fletch]

What annoys me with this whole thing is that more wasn't done last season in signing a solid vet for Ej to sit and develop behind. And I feel like that move happened much to late this season, whuch may be why Marrone blew up on Whaley. By the time a vet for Ej to learn from was signed, it was too late to go back to grooming him. Hopefully he can still develop and not be a total lost cause.

Having said that I think that Orton's probably better than Kolb.

[justasportsfan]

i know you love this angle that a senior manager just sat around and watched everyone else run their job.

no I don't. But show me any proof other than your OPINION.


he trotted out buddy nix. He trotted out gailey. retreads that no one liked as a choice. so? was the final say his? He had the final say a couple of years ago and having the FINAL say, he didn't grab a retread. BTW, Jauron was Levy's pick. FACT! What now?



true, we don't know how much input he has, but he didn't stop any of these mistakes as the CEO.he's only had the final say a couple of years. He didn't have power to stop Donohoe in hiring GW and Mualrkey. He didn't hvae ower to stop Levy from hiring Jauron .



I neither hate nor like Russ from a personnel decision making standpoint because I don't know. IN terms of marketing the team , he was great.

You created the thread and pointed fingers at Russ in personnel decisions. All I am asking is that if you create blame, show us the proof.

[trapezeus]

no I don't. But show me any proof other than your OPINION.

so? was the final say his? He had the final say a couple of years ago and having the FINAL say, he didn't grab a retread. BTW, Jauron was Levy's pick. FACT! What now?

he's only had the final say a couple of years. He didn't have power to stop Donohoe in hiring GW and Mualrkey. He didn't hvae ower to stop Levy from hiring Jauron .



I neither hate nor like Russ from a personnel decision making standpoint because I don't know. IN terms of marketing the team , he was great.

You created the thread and pointed fingers at Russ in personnel decisions. All I am asking is that if you create blame, show us the proof.

There is no smoking gun of proof that will make you agree. at the end of the day, he continues to get promoted to the highest postion as CEO in the NFL. He's nicely marketed himself away from the poor decisions and tried to be "the decision maker" when the time comes.

This coaching change alone he took it on himself to leave no stone unturned. he is oking the transition from nix to whaley. he allows the GM to take EJ, he lets him trade away a 1st round pick. as a leader and CEO, he can stop that. he is fine with whaley talking publically that the goal was to make the playoffs.

he either has no control on the team whatso ever, or he was part of it. either way, that's not much of a CEO....in any industry.

show me proof that he was a great marketer. the bills sold out in the 90's with a weak US economy and a very weak buffalo economy. they did that was an 80,000 seat stadium. today they need the games to be scheduled early in a 67,000 seat stadium. he sold games to another town for two contracts.

winning sells football. the town itself has a football problem. we come for whatever. he merely took advantage of that to provide his boss low expenses and the same revenue.

[HHURRICANE]

Orton was the best backup in the league. I stress the word "backup."

He's 35-35 which is what you want in a backup. Keep you in the hunt.

At 2-2, and if he does a backup job, were 8-8 so that seems to be a reasonable expectation so not sure why that's a choice.

We need to make the playoffs or there is no reason for the change.

He'll need to do better than 8-8 or we should have just stayed with EJ.

[HHURRICANE]

There is no smoking gun of proof that will make you agree. at the end of the day, he continues to get promoted to the highest postion as CEO in the NFL. He's nicely marketed himself away from the poor decisions and tried to be "the decision maker" when the time comes.

This coaching change alone he took it on himself to leave no stone unturned. he is oking the transition from nix to whaley. he allows the GM to take EJ, he lets him trade away a 1st round pick. as a leader and CEO, he can stop that. he is fine with whaley talking publically that the goal was to make the playoffs.

he either has no control on the team whatso ever, or he was part of it. either way, that's not much of a CEO....in any industry.

show me proof that he was a great marketer. the bills sold out in the 90's with a weak US economy and a very weak buffalo economy. they did that was an 80,000 seat stadium. today they need the games to be scheduled early in a 67,000 seat stadium. he sold games to another town for two contracts.

winning sells football. the town itself has a football problem. we come for whatever. he merely took advantage of that to provide his boss low expenses and the same revenue.

Post of the day. Brandon is as much, or more of the problem, than anyone at OBD.

Polian was never scared to confront Wilson. Brandon felt lucky to be in this job and was never going to challenge the Wilsons because no other team would hire this talentless "yes" man.

[justasportsfan]

There is no smoking gun of proof that will make you agree. Wrong. Show me something other than a MD posters opinion on what he thinks happened.Thats like some posters here who made assumptions about whether Ralph had no plan.

At least Pat Moran had his "trusted" sources.




This coaching change alone he took it on himself to leave no stone unturned. he is oking the transition from nix to whaley. he allows the GM to take EJ, he lets him trade away a 1st round pick. as a leader and CEO, he can stop that. he is fine with whaley talking publically that the goal was to make the playoffs.


that in itself is proof that he let the football guys make the decisions. You're using an example that tells me he might have done the same thing in the past.

You can't blame him for the failures in the past and not give him credit if Whaley/Marrone succeed.

[trapezeus]

Wrong. Show me something other than a MD posters opinion on what he thinks happened.Thats like some posters here who made assumptions about whether Ralph had no plan.

At least Pat Moran had his "trusted" sources.




that in itself is proof that he let the football guys make the decisions. You're using an example that tells me he might have done the same thing in the past.

You can't blame him for the failures in the past and not give him credit if Whaley/Marrone succeed.


Ralph did have no plan. he had a trust and a newly minted billionaire in 2010 to save the team. we were told back in the late 90's that ralph sorted this all out. the lease is what saved this team and it was signed in 2012. I will give russ credit for getting that done.

but in terms of hiring failures and then blaming them and them only, it's unique in buffalo. other teams who have fired people for having only one russ brandon moment. Russ has had anywhere from 2 years worth to 14 years worth depending on how you want to count it. Clearly, justa and i disagree on the count, but i find it odd that he stays.

he just looks like a snakeoil salesman.

and look at the bills right now. you think their grand plan was to make the playoffs with kyle orton? if that was the case, why not keep trading down in 2012 than take EJ at 16? keep stockpiling picks. but they were enamored with a guy who wasn't ready to go, didn't have a back up last year. found one in thad mid season, and then trusted him to be ok, and he wasn't good enough. they routinely have kept the cupboard bare with the most key of ingredients.

i just don't get why you want protect him. there are about a million arguements on how he has failed. the only defense has been that he hasn't overseen every single one of them.

[justasportsfan]

Ralph did have no plan. he had a trust and a newly minted billionaire in 2010 to save the team. we were told back in the late 90's that ralph sorted this all out. the lease is what saved this team and it was signed in 2012. I will give russ credit for getting that done.

but in terms of hiring failures and then blaming them and them only, it's unique in buffalo. other teams who have fired people for having only one russ brandon moment. Russ has had anywhere from 2 years worth to 14 years worth depending on how you want to count it. Clearly, justa and i disagree on the count, but i find it odd that he stays.

he just looks like a snakeoil salesman.

and look at the bills right now. you think their grand plan was to make the playoffs with kyle orton? if that was the case, why not keep trading down in 2012 than take EJ at 16? keep stockpiling picks. but they were enamored with a guy who wasn't ready to go, didn't have a back up last year. found one in thad mid season, and then trusted him to be ok, and he wasn't good enough. they routinely have kept the cupboard bare with the most key of ingredients.

i just don't get why you want protect him. there are about a million arguements on how he has failed. the only defense has been that he hasn't overseen every single one of them.

I don't start threads or posts blaming Russ for the last 100 years. You do. Just be cause I am asking you for anything more than your opinion every time you go out of your way to blast Russ, doesn't mean I am protecting him. Neither of us really know but you're the only one who's sure of his accusations. So prove it.Since I too am not sure of the past, I will base everything from when Ralph made him CEO and gave him complete power.

Your ways of innocent until someone with no true source comes up with an opinion ,won't hold in court. I hope you never become part of a jury.

[trapezeus]

who is trying to put him through court. show me proof that EJ is the worst qb on the team. in only 4 games how can you make that claim? maybe the coaches are holding him back and not letting him do what he wants. HOW DO YOU KNOW! i can't believe you have your opinions

a guy is in senior management for 14 years. he keeps taking more power. the teams keeps getting worse. without sitting in one bills drive (and if i did, i certainly wouldn't be a poster here), we are entitled to our opinions. the fact more bills fans can't come to this conclusion is why we debate over little things like coaches and players instead of where the problem lies.

during the gailey years, we literally couldn't bring anyone in here but a retread. there is something within the organization that people know about. how you can't make a decision with meddling (a hallmark of ralph) carried on by his faithful servant, Russ.

as long as he stays, this nonsense will remain. and you should know it.

[OpIv37]

I'm not sure anything makes this ok.

For the short term, well, I've said the rest of the team is playing well enough to win. If we get slightly better play out of Orton than we did out of EJ, this team will win some games this season. And by "slightly better," I mean finding 2nd and 3rd options downfield and not making the big mistake.

Long term, we are ****ed. It appears as though we wasted another first round pick on EJ. And with no good QB option, Watkins is a waste of two more. It doesn't matter how good he is if we can't get him the ball. Bad drafting has held this team back for 15 years and it appears like it's still doing so. This team has some talent and is way below the cap. It could be time to make a run. But the window is short. Guys like Jackson, Wood and K Williams are getting old. Guys like Spiller and Dareus have contracts expiring soon and we won't be able to keep everyone we want to.

So, somehow we have to get a viable QB in a very short time with no first round pick next year to either draft one or package in a trade. Depressing thought.

[better days]

I'm not sure anything makes this ok.

For the short term, well, I've said the rest of the team is playing well enough to win. If we get slightly better play out of Orton than we did out of EJ, this team will win some games this season. And by "slightly better," I mean finding 2nd and 3rd options downfield and not making the big mistake.

Long term, we are ****ed. It appears as though we wasted another first round pick on EJ. And with no good QB option, Watkins is a waste of two more. It doesn't matter how good he is if we can't get him the ball. Bad drafting has held this team back for 15 years and it appears like it's still doing so. This team has some talent and is way below the cap. It could be time to make a run. But the window is short. Guys like Jackson, Wood and K Williams are getting old. Guys like Spiller and Dareus have contracts expiring soon and we won't be able to keep everyone we want to.

So, somehow we have to get a viable QB in a very short time with no first round pick next year to either draft one or package in a trade. Depressing thought.

Watkins is not a waste of picks. He will be on the Bills for years to come no matter who the QB is.

[OpIv37]

Watkins is not a waste of picks. He will be on the Bills for years to come no matter who the QB is.

He's a waste of picks if we don't have a QB who can get him the ball. He'll be the next Eric Moulds.

[Historian]

That is why this team will always be terrible with brandon. he makes big mistakes, blames others, fires them, and then repeats his mistakes. why would competent people want to be on the one team that operates completely different from the other 31. it makes no sense.

That, plus he's an *******.

[casdhf]

Orton was the best backup in the league. I stress the word "backup."

He's 35-35 which is what you want in a backup. Keep you in the hunt.

At 2-2, and if he does a backup job, were 8-8 so that seems to be a reasonable expectation so not sure why that's a choice.

We need to make the playoffs or there is no reason for the change.

He'll need to do better than 8-8 or we should have just stayed with EJ.

I think the rest of the team around him is better than what he had to work with in Chicago or Denver. We will see.

[MikeInRoch]

It is ok today, because it is the right decision today. The team has a better chance to win today with Orton.

There were many previous decisions that were not ok, including not finding a way to get a better QB on the team.

[better days]

He's a waste of picks if we don't have a QB who can get him the ball. He'll be the next Eric Moulds.

Mike Williams is the next Eric Moulds. And Eric Moulds was a GOOD WR. Sammy Watkins is the next Andre Reed.

Orton should get the ball to these guys in stride, then we will see what we have.

[justasportsfan]

show me proof that EJ is the worst qb on the team. in only 4 games how can you make that claim? we shall see after Orton plays. Just like I've been saying that whatever happens now that Russ is the CEO, he gets blame or credit.



maybe the coaches are holding him back and not letting him do what he wants. HOW DO YOU KNOW! i can't believe you have your opinionsI never said I KNEW. My opinions deoesn't mean it's right but you already made the accusation. You keep making threads and posts about Russ

Remember how the team performed under Jauron vs. Fewell? Fitz vs. Trent. Flutie vs. Johnson? YOu can tell the difference. As a matter of fact I saw a differece between





a guy is in senior management for 14 years. he keeps taking more power. the teams keeps getting worse. without sitting in one bills drive (and if i did, i certainly wouldn't be a poster here), we are entitled to our opinions. the fact more bills fans can't come to this conclusion is why we debate over little things like coaches and players instead of where the problem lies.

during the gailey years, we literally couldn't bring anyone in here but a retread. there is something within the organization that people know about. how you can't make a decision with meddling (a hallmark of ralph) carried on by his faithful servant, Russ.

as long as he stays, this nonsense will remain. and you should know it.[/QUOTE] Being a senior management STILL doesn't mean he may or may not have made the decisions. He may have been a great sounding board for Ralph but it doesn't mean he made the decisions.


Not all people are guilty by association. Otherwise Pioli should get most of the credit for the Pats ' superbowl wins because he was the GM. Tom Donaho should get credit for the steelers success because he was their GM and Cowher was hired as the HC when TD was the GM.

[OpIv37]

Mike Williams is the next Eric Moulds. And Eric Moulds was a GOOD WR. Sammy Watkins is the next Andre Reed.

Orton should get the ball to these guys in stride, then we will see what we have.
Eric Moulds was a great WR who only has the numbers of a good WR because we didn't has a QB who could get him the ball.

Same thing is happening to Sammy. We just spent 2 first round picks on a WR who will never be more than good because this FO is too incompetent to put the right pieces around him.

[trapezeus]

Eric Moulds was a great WR who only has the numbers of a good WR because we didn't has a QB who could get him the ball.

Same thing is happening to Sammy. We just spent 2 first round picks on a WR who will never be more than good because this FO is too incompetent to put the right pieces around him.

op, we need proof that the front office did this. it might have been the tooth fairy who made these calls. let's just see what russ says and then believe that.