Build A New Stadium, or Keep The Ralph And Spend "Only," About $400 Million?

[BillsImpossible]

Arrowhead Stadium looked great on TV last night.

Back in 2001, the Chiefs spent about $150 million on stadium renovations.

In 2010, a $375 million stadium renovation was finished.

Arrowhead is a beautiful stadium, and it is a lot like RWS in many ways.

Build a new monstrosity of a stadium on the Buffalo waterfront, or keep what we have in Orchard Park?

Can Bills fans afford the ticket prices of a new stadium with PSL fees on top of season ticket costs?

http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/KansasCityChiefs/newaerial.jpg

Recently, the Miami Dolphins just got approved by Miami-Dade County for a $350 million stadium renovation project.

A new stadium with much higher prices, or a $375-$400 million privately funded renovation with no taxpayer money at all and the same prices most fans can afford?

The Pegula's recently sold land for $1.75 billion and purchased the Bills for $1.4 billion.

That leaves about $350 million leftover.

Keep what we already have and improve upon it, or build a new stadium?

[YardRat]

The state is going to want to keep the stadium in it's current location, simply because it lessens the amount that will probably be required for the gov't entities to pony up on infrastructure. I'd be surprised if Pegs doesn't want to build downtown, somewhere in the vicinity of the FNC. The nail-biting isn't over folks, there will be at least a mini-pissing match over the stadium issue.

[DetDannyWilliams]

The state is going to want to keep the stadium in it's current location, simply because it lessens the amount that will probably be required for the gov't entities to pony up on infrastructure. I'd be surprised if Pegs doesn't want to build downtown, somewhere in the vicinity of the FNC. The nail-biting isn't over folks, there will be at least a mini-pissing match over the stadium issue.

WGRZ's Adam Benigini reported from NYC when the Pegula's passed the financial vote that Pegula and Delaware North (Bruins owner Jacobs company) have had preliminary talks about joining together to build a new stadium.

http://www.wgrz.com/story/sports/nfl/future-of-the-bills/2014/09/17/terry-pegula-buffalo-bills-nfl/15772057/

[BillsImpossible]

What do the fans want?

Does that question apply in the NFL in the same way as the NHL?

I want a new stadium, but at the same time I don't want to pay $250 to go to a game.

A new stadium is going to cost over a billion dollars, and with that goes $3,000 per year PSLs (Personal Seat Licenses).

Can the average Bills fan that has had season tickets for the past 10 years afford that?

I can't.

[BillsImpossible]

WGRZ's Adam Benigini reported from NYC when the Pegula's passed the financial vote that Pegula and Delaware North (Bruins owner Jacobs company) have had preliminary talks about joining together to build a new stadium.

"Delaware North Stadium," is the shiny new car everyone wants, but can we afford it?

I'm sure that the Pegula and Jacobs family can afford to build a new stadium, but can the fans that have supported the team for years afford the higher season ticket prices and PSL fees too?

[SpikedLemonade]

What do the fans want?

Does that question apply in the NFL in the same way as the NHL?

I want a new stadium, but at the same time I don't want to pay $250 to go to a game.

A new stadium is going to cost over a billion dollars, and with that goes $3,000 per year PSLs (Personal Seat Licenses).

Can the average Bills fan that has had season tickets for the past 10 years afford that?

I can't.

It is true that ticket prices will double but PSLs are one time purchases and not annual.

Minny's new stadium will have PSLs from $600 to $15,000.

[HAMMER]

No, most of the current Bills fans can't afford PSL's.

[Goobylal]

I'd favor renovating the Ralph. Arrowhead is actually a year older than the Ralph.

[Mace]

Build a new one, use the old until it is ready, make the new a sports park attraction with museum and shops and location, and give the county a toy to play with in the old one.

If they are smart, the county can find creative ways to make money with it besides letting someone else try. You just know the county must be itching to rake in the big bucks with an 80k seat stadium free and all their own, because such renovated locations rake in the big bucks and if you get one free yeah ?

[BillsOverDolphins]

New...bring the excitement back to WNY

[DetDannyWilliams]

Bills build the new stadium, then UB football program moves into RWS, UB then uses Bulls stadium for just for track and field events. Now With UB now playing big teams like Baylor Bulls stadium just isn't big enough! The capacity at UB stadium is 31,000 including bleachers in both endzones. If UB moves to the RWS then they would have tons of seating. It would be a win win situation.

17137

[Night Train]

Jacobs does wish to pay for a significant portion of a new stadium. It WILL be built downtown by the Sabres arena and all the new development. I doubt it's even a question anymore. 65,000 would be the right size. Dome, of course.

High prices ? PSL's ? We'll see the business plan first but it's years away.

[Dude]

Bills build the new stadium, then UB football program moves into RWS, UB then uses Bulls stadium for just for track and field events. Now With UB now playing big teams like Baylor Bulls stadium just isn't big enough! The capacity at UB stadium is 31,000 including bleachers in both endzones. If UB moves to the RWS then they would have tons of seating. It would be a win win situation.UB can barely fill their on-campus 31,000 seat stadium. Why would they move to one 20 miles away that is twice the size?

[Skooby]

It will be downtown waterfront all the way, just drop the retained Orchard Park dream chatter all together. TP just spent $1.4 Billion, you think he's going to want & continue to play in RWS / no where near his other investments ? It's crazy to even talk about it.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I am fine either way.

[Fletch]

A whole lot of "trolls" here apparently.

I mention these things a month or two ago and all hell breaks loose.


The nail-biting isn't over folks, there will be at least a mini-pissing match over the stadium issue.

Agree with YR here.

Also, what if Pegs doesn't want to spend $1B mostly if not all of his own money on a new stadium and the league insists? Then what? We just assume that he'll bust himself putting every penny he has into the Bills, but that may not be the case. Maybe he says "I took the first step, now I want some help."

I agree, the nail-biting is far from over.

Also, not really nail-biting, but what is he doesn't clean house administratively and in the front office. To me that's more important than buying the team. Who wants the same ****ty team for the next 20 years. Many of us will be looking at the TV asking who Jim Kelly was again by then.

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I am fine either way.

Me too with one exception, I love tailgating. If a stadium in any other location limits tailgating then I'm not for a change.

[better days]

UB can barely fill their on-campus 31,000 seat stadium. Why would they move to one 20 miles away that is twice the size?

For one thing, I'm pretty sure no alcohol is allowed at Stadiums on campus. At the Ralph, alcohol would be allowed, great place to tailgate as well.

UB moves up the food chain with a larger Stadium, most likely attracting BIGGER, BETTER teams to come to Buffalo to play.

[Dude]

For one thing, I'm pretty sure no alcohol is allowed at Stadiums on campus. At the Ralph, alcohol would be allowed, great place to tailgate as well.

UB moves up the food chain with a larger Stadium, most likely attracting BIGGER, BETTER teams to come to Buffalo to play.Alcohol sales are regulated either by conference or university rules, or a combination of both. UB can sell beer now but they choose not to. 11 of the schools that allow beer sales play in pro stadiums, but if the Bills move RWS wouldn't be a "pro" stadium anymore so that really wouldn't be a factor. In other words, a move to RWS wouldn't guarantee beer sales.

Similarly, a move to RWS wouldn't guarantee an improvement in the opponents. You have to remember that UB still plays in the MAC, and the power conferences are getting away from scheduling those teams away from home. You are getting schools like Baylor there now because schedules are made years in advance, but with all the changes in the playoff structure that will most likely change.

It makes absolutely no sense to move to an off-campus venue when you don't fill the one you already have. Why pay rent for a stadium you won't fill when you have one on-campus already? Why make it harder for students to get to the games?

[Fletch]

For one thing, I'm pretty sure no alcohol is allowed at Stadiums on campus. At the Ralph, alcohol would be allowed, great place to tailgate as well.

No potential for problems there with a 15 mile drive back to campus.

[better days]

Alcohol sales are regulated either by conference or university rules, or a combination of both. UB can sell beer now but they choose not to. 11 of the schools that allow beer sales play in pro stadiums, but if the Bills move RWS wouldn't be a "pro" stadium anymore so that really wouldn't be a factor. In other words, a move to RWS wouldn't guarantee beer sales.

Similarly, a move to RWS wouldn't guarantee an improvement in the opponents. You have to remember that UB still plays in the MAC, and the power conferences are getting away from scheduling those teams away from home. You are getting schools like Baylor there now because schedules are made years in advance, but with all the changes in the playoff structure that will most likely change.

It makes absolutely no sense to move to an off-campus venue when you don't fill the one you already have. Why pay rent for a stadium you won't fill when you have one on-campus already? Why make it harder for students to get to the games?

Well, teams change conferences all the time as well. UB could move up to a better conference.

I think a larger Stadium would induce big time schools to Buffalo much more than what they have now, and big time games will attract more fans from all of WNY.

[Dude]

Well, teams change conferences all the time as well. UB could move up to a better conference.

I think a larger Stadium would induce big time schools to Buffalo much more than what they have now, and big time games will attract more fans from all of WNY.At the risk of totally derailing this thread, think about what you're posting before you put your fingers on the keyboard. What about UB would entice one of the power conferences to add them? Media market? Small. Success in sports? Inconsistent. Fan base? See media market. Where else would they go? Would moving to the AAC justify uprooting to a stadium that you couldn't fill and you would have to pay rent to use?

Stadium size alone doesn't influence scheduling. The majority of "big time" schools aren't going to give up the gate or a home game to travel to Buffalo, at least not enough to justify the move.

Finally, why would Erie County maintain two huge football facilities? It's doubtful that UB would be able to cough up enough money to cover all the cost of keeping RWS running.

I appreciate your zeal for the UB program, but there's simply no logic to a move to RWS if the Bills move out.

[better days]

At the risk of totally derailing this thread, think about what you're posting before you put your fingers on the keyboard. What about UB would entice one of the power conferences to add them? Media market? Small. Success in sports? Inconsistent. Fan base? See media market. Where else would they go? Would moving to the AAC justify uprooting to a stadium that you couldn't fill and you would have to pay rent to use?

Stadium size alone doesn't influence scheduling. The majority of "big time" schools aren't going to give up the gate or a home game to travel to Buffalo, at least not enough to justify the move.

Finally, why would Erie County maintain two huge football facilities? It's doubtful that UB would be able to cough up enough money to cover all the cost of keeping RWS running.

I appreciate your zeal for the UB program, but there's simply no logic to a move to RWS if the Bills move out.

Maybe you should follow your own advice. WHO would the rent for the Stadium be paid to? Erie County? The State?

I think UB gets the Stadium rent free, it is owned by the GOVERNMENT. And Obviously Alumni & boosters would have to contribute.

[Dude]

Maybe you should follow your own advice. WHO would the rent for the Stadium be paid to? Erie County? The State?

I think UB gets the Stadium rent free, it is owned by the GOVERNMENT. And Obviously Alumni & boosters would have to contribute.
The stadium is owned by the county. I can't find one example where a college program plays in a publicly-funded facility rent-free. It wouldn't happen.

That being the case, do you think UB has the money to cover the cost of playing at RWS? Do you honestly think alumni and boosters would cover the cost?

Really?

Honestly, you're arguing for the sake of arguing, and you aren't even making good arguments.

[Fletch]

At the risk of totally derailing this thread, think about what you're posting before you put your fingers on the keyboard.

LOL



I appreciate your zeal for the UB program, but there's simply no logic to a move to RWS if the Bills move out.

Agreed, that goes without saying.

I see the stadium sitting all but vacant for years. I don't ever envision an event that requires the upper decks. Those big concerts outdoors don't seem to happen anymore, at least not in Buffalo.

I can see them dusting it off for that New Year's Eve outdoor NHL game every few years if Buffalo's involved again.

It's too small for track. I think.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

UB shouldn't move to the Ralph full time, but they should schedule their bigtime opponents there, like they did a few years ago with Bowling Green I believe.

[Novacane]

It is true that ticket prices will double but PSLs are one time purchases and not annual.

Minny's new stadium will have PSLs from $600 to $15,000.


Thanks. That's what I thought. Stadiums would be empty if PSL were every year

[Dude]

LOL




Agreed, that goes without saying.

I see the stadium sitting all but vacant for years. I don't ever envision an event that requires the upper decks. Those big concerts outdoors don't seem to happen anymore, at least not in Buffalo.

I can see them dusting it off for that New Year's Eve outdoor NHL game every few years if Buffalo's involved again.

It's too small for track. I think.My guess is it would get demolished so the land could be developed. It's too valuable to sit unused, and I can't imagine Erie County would want to continue to maintain it if they are also paying for a new stadium somewhere else. Presumably they would want to use the new stadium for events anyway, including outdoor NHL games. Of course, a new stadium could be built with private money - even if that were to happen (doubtful), I'm willing to bet that the land in Orchard Park is much more valuable as a development opportunity given that there wouldn't be any tenants that could fill it (and pay for it, as has already been discussed).

[Dude]

UB shouldn't move to the Ralph full time, but they should schedule their bigtime opponents there, like they did a few years ago with Bowling Green I believe.I agree. I'm surprised the Baylor game wasn't played there.

Perhaps UB just doesn't have a large enough fanbase to justify the expense?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I agree. I'm surprised the Baylor game wasn't played there.

Perhaps UB just doesn't have a large enough fanbase to justify the expense?

Baylor doesn't have enough travelling fans, that far from home - that's for sure. But there's no reason Ohio State, Penn State, or Michigan couldn't fill the Ralph.

[Fletch]

Thanks. That's what I thought. Stadiums would be empty if PSL were every year

PSLs I think are either a one-time shot or provide rights for a period of time, five or ten years or whatever. They're not annual.

Still, we're not used to paying them and Buffalo doesn't have the type of economy that would support them. jmo

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UB shouldn't move to the Ralph full time, but they should schedule their bigtime opponents there, like they did a few years ago with Bowling Green I believe.

Presumably that was a joke. If so then LOL.

[Dude]

Baylor doesn't have enough travelling fans, that far from home - that's for sure. But there's no reason Ohio State, Penn State, or Michigan couldn't fill the Ralph.Right now the biggest non-conference opponent they have scheduled out is Boston College, but it hasn't been determined where the games will be played. RWS certainly would be a great venue for games against schools like Ohio State, Michigan, or Penn State - but you have to get them to agree give up a home date and come to Buffalo. That means you have to make it financially worthwhile. It's tough to do for a small program like UB.

[Fletch]

My guess is it would get demolished so the land could be developed. It's too valuable to sit unused, and I can't imagine Erie County would want to continue to maintain it if they are also paying for a new stadium somewhere else. Presumably they would want to use the new stadium for events anyway, including outdoor NHL games. Of course, a new stadium could be built with private money - even if that were to happen (doubtful), I'm willing to bet that the land in Orchard Park is much more valuable as a development opportunity given that there wouldn't be any tenants that could fill it (and pay for it, as has already been discussed).

What would the cost of dismantling it be? I'm thinking that the land would have to continue to be zoned commercial or whatever it is, presumably that, but what need would EC have for that much commercially zoned land right there?

I guess the Big Tree could expand and become the world's biggest sports bar.

Also, how long would it take to fill in that hole?

Any idea what the cost of all that would be? ... to a county and state that are broke otherwise.

I see the stadium sitting around for at least a decade just rotting away.

[Dude]

What would the cost of dismantling it be? I'm thinking that the land would have to continue to be zoned commercial or whatever it is, presumably that, but what need would EC have for that much commercially zoned land right there?

I guess the Big Tree could expand and become the world's biggest sports bar.

Also, how long would it take to fill in that hole?

Any idea what the cost of all that would be? ... to a county and state that are broke otherwise.

I see the stadium sitting around for at least a decade just rotting away.I have no idea what the demolition cost would be. But they would probably make it up in what they would get for the land from a developer. Orchard Park is prime real estate.

[Fletch]

Right now the biggest non-conference opponent they have scheduled out is Boston College, but it hasn't been determined where the games will be played. RWS certainly would be a great venue for games against schools like Ohio State, Michigan, or Penn State - but you have to get them to agree give up a home date and come to Buffalo. That means you have to make it financially worthwhile. It's tough to do for a small program like UB.

Don't see that happening anytime in the foreseeable future.

Does UMass still play at Gilette Stadium in Foxboro? Not saying that the Bulls could do the same, there's a world of difference between Massachusetts and WNY.

[Fletch]

I have no idea what the demolition cost would be. But they would probably make it up in what they would get for the land from a developer. Orchard Park is prime real estate.

For commercially zone land?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Presumably that was a joke. If so then LOL.

Say what you will about BGSU, but the Bulls did host them at the Ralph last year

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/boxscores/2013-11-29-buffalo.html


Right now the biggest non-conference opponent they have scheduled out is Boston College, but it hasn't been determined where the games will be played. RWS certainly would be a great venue for games against schools like Ohio State, Michigan, or Penn State - but you have to get them to agree give up a home date and come to Buffalo. That means you have to make it financially worthwhile. It's tough to do for a small program like UB.

We'll have to see how the playoff committee makes its decisions. If they start to penalize teams that play a 8-4 home-road schedule like you typically see with these big conference boys then you might see more road games out of them.


Don't see that happening anytime in the foreseeable future.

Does UMass still play at Gilette Stadium in Foxboro? Not saying that the Bulls could do the same, there's a world of difference between Massachusetts and WNY.

They do.

[Fletch]

Say what you will about BGSU, but the Bulls did host them at the Ralph last year

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/boxscores/2013-11-29-buffalo.html

26,226, less than UB stadium holds.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2186562-how-the-chicago-bears-offense-matches-up-with-the-buffalo-bills-defense

That's like the pre-Polian days Bills. You don't even need all the seats between the goal lines on the lower level sidelines for that.

The only major conference that would make sense for the Bulls is the Big Ten. I'm not sure what their admission fee is but I have to think that UB doesn't have it.

Rutgers is the only "questionable" team in that conference. They have a good record so far this year but they haven't played any good teams. They're about to go on a huge losing streak. Not sure I see the Bulls ever getting in.

[better days]

The stadium is owned by the county. I can't find one example where a college program plays in a publicly-funded facility rent-free. It wouldn't happen.

That being the case, do you think UB has the money to cover the cost of playing at RWS? Do you honestly think alumni and boosters would cover the cost?

Really?

Honestly, you're arguing for the sake of arguing, and you aren't even making good arguments.

Well, which STATE college programs PAY RENT to GOVERNMENT owned Stadiums?

Can you name ANY that does that?

I think you are the one arguing for arguments sake.

[Dude]

Seriously?

[Dude]

26,226, less than UB stadium holds.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2186562-how-the-chicago-bears-offense-matches-up-with-the-buffalo-bills-defense

That's like the pre-Polian days Bills. You don't even need all the seats between the goal lines on the lower level sidelines for that.

The only major conference that would make sense for the Bulls is the Big Ten. I'm not sure what their admission fee is but I have to think that UB doesn't have it.

Rutgers is the only "questionable" team in that conference. They have a good record so far this year but they haven't played any good teams. They're about to go on a huge losing streak. Not sure I see the Bulls ever getting in.
UB doesn't have the media market. Rutgers only got in the Big 10 because they wanted to get into the NYC market. Buffalo isn't big enough.

[better days]

Baylor doesn't have enough travelling fans, that far from home - that's for sure. But there's no reason Ohio State, Penn State, or Michigan couldn't fill the Ralph.

I think Syracuse could as well. Maybe not to full capacity, but certainly much more than 31,000 seats.

[Dude]

For commercially zone land?Yes. But who's to say it couldn't or wouldn't get rezoned?

[better days]

Seriously?

YES Seriously. UB is a State College, the Stadium is Government owned.

There is no way in hell the Government is going to charge itself rent.

[Dude]

Well, which STATE college programs PAY RENT to GOVERNMENT owned Stadiums?

Can you name ANY that does that?

I think you are the one arguing for arguments sake.University of Cincinnati is paying rent to use Paul Brown Stadium this season while their on-campus stadium is renovated. They have paid rent every time they've played there.

Is that good enough for you?

Contact Erie County and ask them if they would let UB play there for free.
Let us know what they say.

[Dude]

YES Seriously. UB is a State College, the Stadium is Government owned.

There is no way in hell the Government is going to charge itself rent.UB is a state school. RWS is a county facility.

Why are you doing this to yourself?

[better days]

University of Cincinnati is paying rent to use Paul Brown Stadium this season while their on-campus stadium is renovated. They have paid rent every time they've played there.

Is that good enough for you?

Contact Erie County and ask them if they would let UB play there for free.
Let us know what they say.

I don't know if Ohio owns Paul Brown Stadium do you?

And how much rent does UC pay?

Is it a lot of money or a token amount?

[Dude]

I don't know if Ohio owns Paul Brown Stadium do you?

And how much rent does UC pay?

Is it a lot of money or a token amount?
Hamilton County owns PBS. I don't know what the current rate is but in the past they've had to sell at least 40,000 tickets to break even. They are losing money on playing there but have no choice.

If you took some time to educate yourself on the state of economics of sports you could make intelligent points rather than shooting from the homer hip.

[Fletch]

UB doesn't have the media market. Rutgers only got in the Big 10 because they wanted to get into the NYC market. Buffalo isn't big enough.

Of course, that was my point earlier as well regarding UMass, same thing here.

I was just talking on merit alone. I don't even see it there.

[Fletch]

Yes. But who's to say it couldn't or wouldn't get rezoned?

Depends upon what was done there. Maybe it can.

I know that much of Kodak Park in Rochester sits idle and can't be rezoned as Kodak turns it into literal parks because of the nature of Kodak's businesses. I don't know how much of that would apply to Rich and OP.

Is the demand for this land residential or commerical?

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YES Seriously. UB is a State College, the Stadium is Government owned.

There is no way in hell the Government is going to charge itself rent.

College football is a for profit industry.

[Albany,n.y.]

"Delaware North Stadium," is the shiny new car everyone wants, but can we afford it?

I'm sure that the Pegula and Jacobs family can afford to build a new stadium, but can the fans that have supported the team for years afford the higher season ticket prices and PSL fees too?

Look at what people were getting on Ticket Exchange when the Bills were undefeated. A friend sold club level endzone seats for $125 each for the Vikings game-it helps it's row 1-but it's still end zone benches. There are enough fans who can pay double what prices currently are as long as the team is winning. I don't see PSLs ever coming to Buffalo outside of club seats. Even the Jets have many seats without PSLs.

[trapezeus]

my guess is erie county would not maintain both. i would also assume if pegs is putting money down on a new stadium, he'd want college games there on saturday so that people are downtown, an area he's actively developing. and he gets part of the costs connected to it.

the ub program moving to RWS was a thread that poster tried once before and said it was tweeted by the BLO news and it wasn't. it's not happening.

[stuckincincy]

Look at what people were getting on Ticket Exchange when the Bills were undefeated. A friend sold club level endzone seats for $125 each for the Vikings game-it helps it's row 1-but it's still end zone benches. There are enough fans who can pay double what prices currently are as long as the team is winning. I don't see PSLs ever coming to Buffalo outside of club seats. Even the Jets have many seats without PSLs.

Not all, but there are a lot of NYJ seats that require plunking down $ for a PSL; Their chart:

http://www.newyorkjets.com/tickets-and-stadium/new-stadium/seating-chart.html

[Dude]

Depends upon what was done there. Maybe it can.

I know that much of Kodak Park in Rochester sits idle and can't be rezoned as Kodak turns it into literal parks because of the nature of Kodak's businesses. I don't know how much of that would apply to Rich and OP.

Is the demand for this land residential or commerical?The only thing hazardous about the RWS site is the quality of play by the Bills. I don't think that would be an issue for redevelopment.

As far as current demand, it's for winning football. I don't know if studies have been done on future use, but consider the location. It's a large tract of land located in a heavily populated, high-income area. OP is a desirable suburb so it's logical that demand would be there for housing. That doesn't mean it would go that way. Commercially, it's at a location close to the confluence of several major state routes and it's near two major highways. That makes it attractive to a large business or even for an industrial park.

If RWS were torn down, that land is way too usable for it to sit empty.

[Fletch]

my guess is erie county would not maintain both. i would also assume if pegs is putting money down on a new stadium, he'd want college games there on saturday so that people are downtown, an area he's actively developing. and he gets part of the costs connected to it.

the ub program moving to RWS was a thread that poster tried once before and said it was tweeted by the BLO news and it wasn't. it's not happening.

Agree that it's not happening.

More than just college games downtown I'd think that it would be a multi-purpose stadium hosting a whole lot of things towards that same effect.

[trapezeus]

Not all, but there are a lot of NYJ seats that require plunking down $ for a PSL; Their chart:

http://www.newyorkjets.com/tickets-and-stadium/new-stadium/seating-chart.html

and if you live in NYC and went to a jets game, they call offering to waive costs and sell well below the face value. Jerry jones got away with it based on the size of his fanbase. Others don't. If NYC has issues with PSL's, its not about economy. it's about what people are willing to pay for a crappy product.

[stuckincincy]

and if you live in NYC and went to a jets game, they call offering to waive costs and sell well below the face value. Jerry jones got away with it based on the size of his fanbase. Others don't. If NYC has issues with PSL's, its not about economy. it's about what people are willing to pay for a crappy product.

I'm not clear what you are saying. Is the NYJ club discounting their own posted PSL pricing?

[better days]

Hamilton County owns PBS. I don't know what the current rate is but in the past they've had to sell at least 40,000 tickets to break even. They are losing money on playing there but have no choice.

If you took some time to educate yourself on the state of economics of sports you could make intelligent points rather than shooting from the homer hip.

I would bet if UC is paying rent, it is to the Cinci Bengals Football team, not to any Government.

The Bengals probably have exclusive use of the Stadium in their lease. Anyone else using that Stadium has to pay rent to the Bengals.

If the Bills move, the Stadium will have no tenant.

And the County could very easily transfer ownership of the Stadium to the State with the State picking up some of the operating expenses.

[EricStratton]

The Jets struggled to sell all of their PSL's in the first offering and had to re-issue at a lower cost as a result. They also left a section of the stadium PSL free.

One thing that PSL's did for both the Jets and Giants is turned the season ticket base upside-down. People who has seats for many years were pushed out in favor or new people from the wait lists.

[stuckincincy]

I would bet if UC is paying rent, it is to the Cinci Bengals Football team, not to any Government.

The Bengals probably have exclusive use of the Stadium in their lease. Anyone else using that Stadium has to pay rent to the Bengals.

If the Bills move, the Stadium will have no tenant.

And the County could very easily transfer ownership of the Stadium to the State with the State picking up some of the operating expenses.

The Bengals indeed call the shots. That it was the most lopsided deal ever is history - somebody wrote a book about it.

Public opinion - and blackouts - have caused ownership to soften their stance through the years. UC is revamping their campus stadium, and I'm sure that they are paying the costs associated with staging their games. It is possible that the Bgal's aren't extracting a rental fee. Haven't read anything about it either way. My guess is no.

[Dude]

I would bet if UC is paying rent, it is to the Cinci Bengals Football team, not to any Government.

The Bengals probably have exclusive use of the Stadium in their lease. Anyone else using that Stadium has to pay rent to the Bengals.

If the Bills move, the Stadium will have no tenant.

And the County could very easily transfer ownership of the Stadium to the State with the State picking up some of the operating expenses.Yes, and as the primary tenant the Bengals pay rent to the county to use the stadium. So either way the county is getting their money.

If the Bills move out of RWS, and UB were to move in, guess who becomes the primary tenant? Guess who has to pay rent? I'll give you a hint: it's UB.

Why would the county transfer ownership? And why would the state want to own the stadium? Further, why would residents of NYC want their tax dollars going to maintain a stadium in Buffalo? It's one thing to use state money to build the things, but for ongoing operations? Would you stand for that if you lived outside the area? I wouldn't.

I really don't think you're putting any thought into what you're saying. Nothing you've posted about this is logical. It's something you really want to see happen because you are obviously a huge fan of the program, but you can't look at the situation objectively to see all the reasons why it won't happen.

[Dude]

The Bengals indeed call the shots. That it was the most lopsided deal ever is history - somebody wrote a book about it.

Public opinion - and blackouts - have caused ownership to soften their stance through the years. UC is revamping their campus stadium, and I'm sure that they are paying the costs associated with staging their games. It is possible that the Bgal's aren't extracting a rental fee. Haven't read anything about it either way. My guess is no.UC is paying rent, although they may have worked out a deal for this year. But they aren't playing there for free.

Even OSU had to rent the place when they had their spring game here this year.

[stuckincincy]

UC is paying rent, although they may have worked out a deal for this year. But they aren't playing there for free.

Even OSU had to rent the place when they had their spring game here this year.

Thanks - clears that up.

[better days]

UC is paying rent, although they may have worked out a deal for this year. But they aren't playing there for free.

Even OSU had to rent the place when they had their spring game here this year.

The point is they are paying rent to the Bengals, NOT to any Govenment.

[Dude]

The point is they are paying rent to the Bengals, NOT to any Govenment.
And, as I already said, the Bengals pay rent to the government. The government is still getting paid for the use of the facility. The primary tenant is passing on the cost to the Bearcats.

There are no free rides in sports or government.

[Historian]

They're refurbishing Nippert?

Cool. I always liked that place. It has that Franklin Field, Cornell Ivy League feel to it.

The Bills played the Bengals there until Riverfront was built.

:up:

[stuckincincy]

And, as I already said, the Bengals pay rent to the government. The government is still getting paid for the use of the facility. The primary tenant is passing on the cost to the Bearcats.

There are no free rides in sports or government.

Take your pick:

http://bengals.enquirer.com/2000/08/19/ben_bengals_lease_pretty.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704461304576216330349497852

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2009/1/16/725820/bengals-made-their-last-re

[IlluminatusUIUC]

YES Seriously. UB is a State College, the Stadium is Government owned.

There is no way in hell the Government is going to charge itself rent.

As Dude noted, we're dealing with two governments here. The state vs. the county. The same things happens all over the country - the UCLA Bruins pay to play in the Rose Bowl
http://dailybruin.com/2010/10/12/council_approves_renovation/

With the construction, UCLA also agreed to new lease terms on the stadium. UCLA is dropping the remaining 13 years on its contract with the Rose Bowl for a new 30-year lease that will expire at the end of the 2042 football season. Under the new lease, there will also be changes to the revenue plan.


UCLA currently pays the Rose Bowl 8 percent of all regular ticket sales and receives $50 per luxury box ticket. Under the new deal, UCLA will still pay 8 percent, but the Rose Bowl will no longer pay UCLA the $50 per luxury box ticket. Pasadena will manage the sale of premium seats, according to board documents.


UCLA, however, will retain all television revenue after a substantial proportion of the project has been completed, according to board documents. This is a change from the 8 percent it currently pays to the city.


Membership fees for Rose Bowl lounges will be split between Pasadena and UCLA. The university will retain the first $250,000 of revenue, which will increase by 3 percent each year, while the rest will be paid for Pasadena’s debt service.

[Fletch]

If NYC has issues with PSL's, its not about economy. it's about what people are willing to pay for a crappy product.

I think in NYC. I'd think that in Buffalo it's got to be both. I don't see PSL's working well here under any circumstances.

[better days]

And, as I already said, the Bengals pay rent to the government. The government is still getting paid for the use of the facility. The primary tenant is passing on the cost to the Bearcats.

There are no free rides in sports or government.

The Bengals are a PRIVATE COMPANY with NO GOVERNMENT affiliation!

You are arguing for arguments sake with no leg to stand on.

UB being a STATE University would pay NO rent to play in any Stadium owned by the Government if no other tenants are involved.

[Fletch]

I really don't think you're putting any thought into what you're saying. Nothing you've posted about this is logical.

LOL

better days is loveable in this way.

- - - Updated - - -


And, as I already said, the Bengals pay rent to the government. The government is still getting paid for the use of the facility. The primary tenant is passing on the cost to the Bearcats.

There are no free rides in sports or government.

It's called subletting better days.

[better days]

As Dude noted, we're dealing with two governments here. The state vs. the county. The same things happens all over the country - the UCLA Bruins pay to play in the Rose Bowl
http://dailybruin.com/2010/10/12/council_approves_renovation/

As I already said, the County could easily transfer ownership of the Stadium to the State.

UCLA pays the Rose Bowl................not ANY GOVENMENT.

I think UB playing at the Ralph is a very viable option.

[Dude]

The only example I can find where a team doesn't pay rent is UMass playing at Gillette. However, Gillette is privately owned by Robert Kraft, and this is a temporary arrangement while UMass' on-campus facility is being built. Every other instance I've found where a school plays in an off-campus publicly owned stadium they are paying rent, either directly to the primary tenant or to the ownership. There are several instances where a facility is state owned, but I can't find any stats where a state school plays for free (GA State, as an example, pays $75,000/game to play at the Georgia Dome, which is owned by the state of Georgia).

So, you've got:
- logistics: moving stadium 20 miles away making it harder for students to attend games; remote location and lack of public transit makes it hard for students without cars (thus requiring extra cost of providing shuttle service to and from games)
- size: additional 30,000 seats that won't be used on a consistent basis
- cost: need to pay (likely high) rent plus cost of game-day operations, may or may not get to keep full revenue from concessions depending on lease

Benefits:
- enough seats to handle crowds for occasional games vs. "big-time" opponents

From the county's perspective, they have to continue to maintain the facility in addition to the new stadium, unless the new one is privately owned. The new stadium will be nicer and in a better location, so it will be the preferred venue for major events. The amount of rent they would have to charge to the lone tenant would in all likelihood make the deal cost-prohibitive for a state university with a relatively small athletic booster population.

I could go on but I'm just rehashing at this point. I've yet to see a compelling argument or reason for why UB would move to RWS, and I don't think I will.

[better days]

LOL

better days is loveable in this way.

- - - Updated - - -



It's called subletting better days.

If the Bills are no longer tenants of Ralph Wilson Stadium, there would be no subletting.

[Dude]

As I already said, the County could easily transfer ownership of the Stadium to the State.

UCLA pays the Rose Bowl................not ANY GOVENMENT.

I think UB playing at the Ralph is a very viable option.The Rose Bowl is owned by the City of Pasadena.

Keep trying.

[better days]

The only example I can find where a team doesn't pay rent is UMass playing at Gillette. However, Gillette is privately owned by Robert Kraft, and this is a temporary arrangement while UMass' on-campus facility is being built. Every other instance I've found where a school plays in an off-campus publicly owned stadium they are paying rent, either directly to the primary tenant or to the ownership. There are several instances where a facility is state owned, but I can't find any stats where a state school plays for free (GA State, as an example, pays $75,000/game to play at the Georgia Dome, which is owned by the state of Georgia).

So, you've got:
- logistics: moving stadium 20 miles away making it harder for students to attend games; remote location and lack of public transit makes it hard for students without cars (thus requiring extra cost of providing shuttle service to and from games)
- size: additional 30,000 seats that won't be used on a consistent basis
- cost: need to pay (likely high) rent plus cost of game-day operations, may or may not get to keep full revenue from concessions depending on lease

Benefits:
- enough seats to handle crowds for occasional games vs. "big-time" opponents

From the county's perspective, they have to continue to maintain the facility in addition to the new stadium, unless the new one is privately owned. The new stadium will be nicer and in a better location, so it will be the preferred venue for major events. The amount of rent they would have to charge to the lone tenant would in all likelihood make the deal cost-prohibitive for a state university with a relatively small athletic booster population.

I could go on but I'm just rehashing at this point. I've yet to see a compelling argument or reason for why UB would move to RWS, and I don't think I will.

You can make arguments for & against UB playing at the Ralph, but RENT is not an argument that should be under discussion.

[Dude]

The Bengals are a PRIVATE COMPANY with NO GOVERNMENT affiliation!

You are arguing for arguments sake with no leg to stand on.

UB being a STATE University would pay NO rent to play in any Stadium owned by the Government if no other tenants are involved.
How do you get out of bed in the morning? Seriously. Are you really this obtuse, or are you just trying desperately to save face? It's not working, and you're just making yourself look more and more foolish.

[Dude]

You can make arguments for & against UB playing at the Ralph, but RENT is not an argument that should be under discussion.When you provide proof that they would be able to play there rent free, it will no longer be a topic for discussion.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

As I already said, the County could easily transfer ownership of the Stadium to the State.

UCLA pays the Rose Bowl................not ANY GOVENMENT.

I think UB playing at the Ralph is a very viable option.

The Rose Bowl Operating Company is a non-profit owned by the City of Pasadena. Look at their Board of Directors: http://ww2.cityofpasadena.net/commissions/rboc.asp


Purpose and Function The mission of the Rose Bowl Operating Company is to return economic and civic value to the City of Pasadena by managing a world-class stadium and a professional quality golf course complex in a community based environment.

If you're going to claim that somehow doesn't count because the City chooses to use a holding company, then you're grasping.

Whether or not the Ralph is viable for the Bulls is a different question from whether Erie County would let them use it for free.

[better days]

The Rose Bowl is owned by the City of Pasadena.

Keep trying.

And controlled by a non profit CORPORATION.

I keep trying & WINNING.

[Fletch]

Take your pick:

http://bengals.enquirer.com/2000/08/19/ben_bengals_lease_pretty.html

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704461304576216330349497852

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2009/1/16/725820/bengals-made-their-last-re

Interesting

That removes all kinds of speculation.

I hit that first link that's about 14 years old, from it;


“I think Cincinnati is in the last group of stadiums, with Baltimore and Tampa Bay, Nashville and St. Louis, that are heavily government oriented,” said John Moag, managing director at the investment firm Legg Mason Wood Walker in Baltimore and former chairman of the Maryland Stadium Authority.


“Those days are coming to an end,” as the public demands teams pay more of stadium costs, he said. Two more recent leases, in Denver and Detroit, obligate the teams to pay more stadium costs than the Bengals will.


Those days seem to have come to even more of an end these days as financially strapped taxpayers question even more why a club of exclusive billionaires need local or state tax money to help them fund their business expenses. There's a tidal wave of blowback emerging that hasn't crescendo-ed yet.

That's why I think that Pegula's going to have to pay mostly if not all of his own money for any new stadium. If he does I don't see why he wouldn't want to do so almost immediately. If it makes sense for him personally then I don't see it attached to any time frame besides the existing lease. Maybe he'll work out something with the county.

Say he's approved owner soon, announces this season that he's going to build a new stadium, gets plans, etc., he can probably have the thing ready to play in by the 2017 season. Would it be worth about $370M to him to have it three seasons before he otherwise would?

I have no idea nor will I speculate, just asking the mostly rhetorical question. I would think that once he's approved he'll have a press conference within a few months to outline his plans.

[Dude]

And controlled by a non profit CORPORATION.

I keep trying & WINNING.Wow.

[better days]

The Rose Bowl Operating Company is a non-profit owned by the City of Pasadena. Look at their Board of Directors: http://ww2.cityofpasadena.net/commissions/rboc.asp



If you're going to claim that somehow doesn't count because the City chooses to use a holding company, then you're grasping.

Whether or not the Ralph is viable for the Bulls is a different question from whether Erie County would let them use it for free.

Ralph Wilson Stadium has nothing in common with the Rose Bowl which is operated by a non Profit Corporation.

[better days]

Wow.

All you can say because you were proven WRONG.

[Dude]

Ralph Wilson Stadium has nothing in common with the Rose Bowl which is operated by a non Profit Corporation.You may want to stop and do some reading before you keep posting on this topic.

Just trying to help.

[Dude]

All you can say because you were proven WRONG.Well, I'd love to see where that happened.

[better days]

Well, I'd love to see where that happened.

You have not shown any State College football team that pays rent to any Government, you were WRONG about UB having to pay rent to play at the Ralph.

[Dude]

You have not shown any State College football team that pays rent to any Government, you were WRONG about UB having to pay rent to play at the Ralph.I did, actually. I provided two examples: the Bengals pay rent to Hamilton County. They, in turn, pass on the cost (sublet) to UC. GA State pays the state of Georgia $75,000 per game to play at the Georgia Dome. Illuminatus also provided information that shows USC pays rent to the City of Pasadena. Regardless of how much you stick your fingers in your ears and shout to drown out the facts, it doesn't change the facts.

You, on the other hand, have yet to show any evidence that indicates UB would play rent-free at RWS. So if I missed it I apologize, but I don't think I did. Please provide links to the posts if this is the case. Thanks.

Edited to add: link that shows GA State rent: http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/college/georgia-state-wants-to-turn-turner-field-into-foot/nfq8R/

One of tradeoffs of having a stadium vs. renting the Georgia Dome is cost. Georgia State is expected to pay $75,551.17 per home game to use the Dome in 2014, according to a copy of the proposed licensing agreement between the Georgia Dome and the university. The agreement hasn’t been signed.

[better days]

I did, actually. I provided two examples: the Bengals pay rent to Hamilton County. They, in turn, pass on the cost (sublet) to UC. GA State pays the state of Georgia $75,000 per game to play at the Georgia Dome. Illuminatus also provided information that shows USC pays rent to the City of Pasadena. Regardless of how much you stick your fingers in your ears and shout to drown out the facts, it doesn't change the facts.

You, on the other hand, have yet to show any evidence that indicates UB would play rent-free at RWS. So if I missed it I apologize, but I don't think I did. Please provide links to the posts if this is the case. Thanks.

WOW. Here is a clue for you, the Bengals are NOT a STATE College football team.

The Rose Bowl is run by a PRIVATE NON PROFIT CORPORATION.

Those the the FACTS.

NO STATE COLLEGE FOOTBALL TEAM PAYS RENT TO ANY GOVERNMENT! FACT!

And the UB Bulls would not be required to pay rent to play at the Ralph. FACT.

[Dude]

WOW. Here is a clue for you, the Bengals are NOT a STATE College football team.

The Rose Bowl is run by a PRIVATE NON PROFIT CORPORATION.

Those the the FACTS.

NO STATE COLLEGE FOOTBALL TEAM PAYS RENT TO ANY GOVERNMENT! FACT!

And the UB Bulls would not be required to pay rent to play at the Ralph. FACT.
:rofl: OK, you believe what you want. Good luck.

[Fletch]

Can this exchange really be happening?

[better days]

:rofl: OK, you believe what you want. Good luck.

I will do that, and I believe you were proven WRONG!

[Dude]

Can this exchange really be happening?It's amazing, isn't it?

[Fletch]

It's amazing, isn't it?

Well not really knowing who's on the other end, but yeah, in a way.

LOL

This is common.

Having said that better days is pretty good natured otherwise.

[better days]

Well not really knowing who's on the other end, but yeah, in a way.

LOL

This is common.

Having said that better days is pretty good natured otherwise.

When I am proven wrong, I admit it as I did a couple days ago when I said EJ was one of the first QB's signed under the new CBA.

WOW, I was WRONG about that.

In this case I am absolutely correct.

[Fletch]

You seem to be failing to connect a whole lot of dots involved in the exchange that you guys are having.

Just an objective comment from a non-participant in your direct exchange.

[stuckincincy]

Interesting

That removes all kinds of speculation.


The thing is, no amount of horror stories will stop folks who may be transient students or non-property owners or on the public dole or ensconced with a job-for-life in the public sector from howling come every new moon for a new stadium. They don't have a cent extracted from their personal hide but in a peripheral way, if at all.

It reminds me of those who rag against cable companies for not raising rates for all subscribers so they can get their personal yucks on the backs of others. The cable companies say ok - we will carry NFL Network on a PPV basis - those that want it pay for it.

Not good enough for selfish sports fans...

[better days]

You seem to be failing to connect a whole lot of dots involved in the exchange that you guys are having.

Just an objective comment from a non-participant in your direct exchange.

Here are the dots I connected.............

If the Bills Build a new Stadium & move out of the Ralph, that Stadium will have no tenant.

The Ralph is owned by the Government & UB is a State School.

That being the case I think it is reasonable to think UB could play at the Ralph rent free.

The Dude has not shown a single instance where a State School paid rent to the Government it is part of.

Those are the dots as I see them.

[Dude]

Here are the dots I connected.............

If the Bills Build a new Stadium & move out of the Ralph, that Stadium will have no tenant.

The Ralph is owned by the Government & UB is a State School.

That being the case I think it is reasonable to think UB could play at the Ralph rent free.

The Dude has not shown a single instance where a State School payed rent to the Government it is part of.

Those are the dots as I see them.
Regardless of how much you try to bait me, it's not going to work. Read the thread everything you need to know is there.

[EricStratton]

Except he did show that Cincinnati and Georgia State and USC do.








Here are the dots I connected.............

If the Bills Build a new Stadium & move out of the Ralph, that Stadium will have no tenant.

The Ralph is owned by the Government & UB is a State School.

That being the case I think it is reasonable to think UB could play at the Ralph rent free.

The Dude has not shown a single instance where a State School paid rent to the Government it is part of.

Those are the dots as I see them.

[Dude]

Except he did show that Cincinnati and Georgia State and USC do.
Facts are stupid.

[better days]

Regardless of how much you try to bait me, it's not going to work. Read the thread everything you need to know is there.

I just laid out the FACTS of the argument.

I am done with this subject. But the fact is any reasonable person would have to agree, UB could play at the Ralph rent free if that is what UB & the government want to happen.

[better days]

Except he did show that Cincinnati and Georgia State and USC do.

They are paying rent to NFL teams that have exclusive rights for the use of those Stadiums, they are NOT paying the Government.

If the Bills move out of Ralph Wilson Stadium, the lease would be ended & the Bills will not have rights to it any longer.

[EricStratton]

I just laid out the FACTS of the argument.

I am done with this subject. But the fact is any reasonable person would have to agree, UB could play at the Ralph rent free if that is what UB & the government want to happen.



I could live at Trump Tower rent free if that is what myself and Donald want to happen as well.

Do you really think Erie County and the State on New York should be in the business of subsidizing UB's division I sports program to that extent. That is a huge pill to swallow to keep a stadium open for one tenant for 6 games a year that isn't generating an adequate revenue, don't you think.

[better days]

Facts are stupid.

It is obvious that is what you think because you choose to ignore them.

[Dude]

This thread is a great example of why it's important to stay in school.

[better days]

I could live at Trump Tower rent free if that is what myself and Donald want to happen as well.

Do you really think Erie County and the State on New York should be in the business of subsidizing UB's division I sports program to that extent. That is a huge pill to swallow to keep a stadium open for one tenant for 6 games a year that isn't generating an adequate revenue, don't you think.

Yeah, well the Donald did let Jim Kelly live there rent free while he was in NYC for his cancer treatment, why don't you ask if you could get the same deal?

And I said before arguments could be made for & against UB playing at the Ralph, but rent is not in the equation.

[Dude]

I just laid out the FACTS of the argument.

I am done with this subject. But the fact is any reasonable person would have to agree, UB could play at the Ralph rent free if that is what UB & the government want to happen.
Except you didn't. You gave your opinion. I even provided a little blue thingy you can click that backs up my statement about Georgia State. Another poster provided links that back up USC's situation. What links or proof did you provide? Posting in ALL CAPS doesn't count as proof.

I'm glad you're finally done because you haven't really contributed anything of substance.

[EricStratton]

USF pays the Tampa Sports Authority (a government agency) about $145,000 per game to use Raymond James Stadium.

[Dude]

Memphis pays the city of Memphis to play at the Liberty Bowl.

[sukie]

I love all those lovely endzone suites clearly visible in that Arrowhead pic. Build new and go state of the art

[Fletch]

Posting in ALL CAPS doesn't count as proof.

LOL

[better days]

The thing is, no amount of horror stories will stop folks who may be transient students or non-property owners or on the public dole or ensconced with a job-for-life in the public sector from howling come every new moon for a new stadium. They don't have a cent extracted from their personal hide but in a peripheral way, if at all.

It reminds me of those who rag against cable companies for not raising rates for all subscribers so they can get their personal yucks on the backs of others. The cable companies say ok - we will carry NFL Network on a PPV basis - those that want it pay for it.

Not good enough for selfish sports fans...

Well, there are plenty of channels I get that I don't want or watch.

I have to pay for the second best package Fios offers to get NFL Network.

It does also include the NHL channel & many other channels I like, & at a cheaper cost than Directv so I'm not really complaining.

[notacon]

Arrowhead Stadium looked great on TV last night.

Back in 2001, the Chiefs spent about $150 million on stadium renovations.

In 2010, a $375 million stadium renovation was finished.

Arrowhead is a beautiful stadium, and it is a lot like RWS in many ways.

Build a new monstrosity of a stadium on the Buffalo waterfront, or keep what we have in Orchard Park?

Can Bills fans afford the ticket prices of a new stadium with PSL fees on top of season ticket costs?

http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/KansasCityChiefs/newaerial.jpg

Recently, the Miami Dolphins just got approved by Miami-Dade County for a $350 million stadium renovation project.

A new stadium with much higher prices, or a $375-$400 million privately funded renovation with no taxpayer money at all and the same prices most fans can afford?

The Pegula's recently sold land for $1.75 billion and purchased the Bills for $1.4 billion.

That leaves about $350 million leftover.

Keep what we already have and improve upon it, or build a new stadium?

The only "monstrosity" is already in Orchard Park.

Your simple math is rally, really dumb.

The ONLY way the Bills survive in WNY is with a new stadium, in the downtown area. Period.

The taxpayer has to pony up, and rightfully so. You don't like it, move out of the area.

[HHURRICANE]

Arrowhead Stadium looked great on TV last night.

Back in 2001, the Chiefs spent about $150 million on stadium renovations.

In 2010, a $375 million stadium renovation was finished.

Arrowhead is a beautiful stadium, and it is a lot like RWS in many ways.

Build a new monstrosity of a stadium on the Buffalo waterfront, or keep what we have in Orchard Park?

Can Bills fans afford the ticket prices of a new stadium with PSL fees on top of season ticket costs?


I didn't know Ralph Wilson had a son? Nice to meet you!

We almost lost the team because of the stupid stadium issue. if you like the Bills than pay for keeping here.

We need a new stadium. Welcome to the 21st century.

[stuckincincy]

Well, there are plenty of channels I get that I don't want or watch.

I have to pay for the second best package Fios offers to get NFL Network.

It does also include the NHL channel & many other channels I like, & at a cheaper cost than Directv so I'm not really complaining.

What do you think about the folks who don't give a rat's fanny about sports but have to pay for the added cost of sports on their bills - so you can't complain?

[better days]

What do you think about the folks who don't give a rat's fanny about sports but have to pay for the added cost of sports on their bills - so you can't complain?

Again, there are many channels in my package tier that I don't want or watch.

Somebody must want them & watch them. Probably the people that don't care about the sports channels.

[YardRat]

I know I've said this before, but the Ralph is a perfect situation for demolition...extract all of the potentially hazardous materials, then bulldoze the upper decks into the lower bowl. The hole is already dug, it's just a matter of filling it in and paving over it.

[BillsImpossible]

The only "monstrosity" is already in Orchard Park.

Your simple math is rally, really dumb.

The ONLY way the Bills survive in WNY is with a new stadium, in the downtown area. Period.

The taxpayer has to pony up, and rightfully so. You don't like it, move out of the area.

The WNY taxpayer has ponied up enough already. We have some of the highest tax rates in the entire country.

You're asking for higher ticket prices, AND higher taxes too?

What are you trying to do? Make more people move away?

$5,000 per year in property taxes alone X 10 years as a home owner equals $50,000.

My simple math is not, 'rally, really dumb.'

It's quite simple.

[BillsImpossible]

How many people do you know of that have moved out of New York?

I know of at least 20 people. Most of them say that the main reasons why they moved away were because of a lack of good paying jobs, and high taxes.

One of my best friend's from high school moved away to PA, and his property/school taxes combined are $1,200 a year for a 2,000 square foot house in a suburb 30 minutes away from Philadelphia.

That's $3,800 per year savings in taxes alone, not counting a lower sales tax rate on things like gasoline, clothing, shoes, and food.

Raising taxes on the remaining citizens of WNY for the sake of building a new stadium downtown is a bad business model, and a Hail Mary attempt at best.

[Fletch]

The taxpayer has to pony up, and rightfully so. You don't like it, move out of the area.

A lot of people already have. Maybe that's why it becomes a tougher sell.

[DetDannyWilliams]

my Uncle is a contractor and he's one of the workers working on the Harbor Center, and he tells me that Pegula has his team of construction workers already to go for a new stadium, it's the same crew that is working on the Harbor Center. All Pegula needs to do is find a location to put the stadium and to work out an agreement with Erie County and New York State.

[Fletch]

Nice!

Tell him to make lots of room for tailgating.