Spiller and Gilmore

[OpIv37]

A big reason why this team doesn't win: high draft picks playing like average mod round players. Sure, these guys make a play every now and then, but they disappear for long stretches and are prone to mistakes.

Spiller's lack of development is alarming. He still can't block, and he still dances looking for a hole, turning plays that should be small gains into losses. He literally looks like he hasn't improved at all since he was a rookie.

And Gilmore hasn't had his obligatory penalty yet so wait for it.

[pmoon6]

Well. at least a segment of Bills' Fans are happy.

Gives them a chance to get their little girl on.

[Downinfloflo]

Spiller should not be resigned..

Let him walk like Byrd..

[TacklingDummy]

Mckelvin, Maybin, Whitner, Spiller, Manuel, Gilmore, Dareus, McCargo, Lynch, Evans, Losman, McGahee, Mike Williams, Clements, Erik Flowers.

Doesn't take an Enstein to figure out why the Bills have sucked the past 14+ years.

[pmoon6]

Mckelvin, Maybin, Whitner, Spiller, Manuel, Gilmore, Dareus, McCargo, Lynch, Evans, Losman, McGahee, Mike Williams, Clements, Erik Flowers.

Doesn't take an Enstein to figure out why the Bills have sucked the past 14+ years.You forgot changing coaches every three years.

[Mr. Pink]

You forgot changing coaches every three years.

Oh yes because any of these coaches in the past 15 years should have stayed longer.

Continuity is great, when you pick the right guys to begin with.

[SpikedLemonade]

Another holding call on Gilmore.

[OpIv37]

Well. at least a segment of Bills' Fans are happy.

Gives them a chance to get their little girl on.

Oh yeah.

I'm real ****ing happy that I'm spending my time and money on this garbage.

[pmoon6]

Another holding call on Gilmore.That wasn't holding.

[Buffalogic]

Dareus has 3 sacks today.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Two straight plays to Spiller, net -1 yards.

STAHP

[pmoon6]

Oh yeah.

I'm real ****ing happy that I'm spending my time and money on this garbage.How do you like them now, *****?

[YardRat]

Spiller can go...try to move him before the deadline, or let him walk. Unless he wants to stay real cheap, which is doubtful.

[Ginger Vitis]

Watkins and Dareus are pretty good though

[trapezeus]

when is the trade deadline and how is brown?

if the coaches think brown can be good as the number 2 back, then moving spiller to a team that is rb desperate (i don't know that team right now) would be ok by me.

[OpIv37]

How do you like them now, *****?

We won in spite of them, not because of them.

Gilmore had the pick, but he also had a touchdown in his grill and a penalty on 3rd down that extended a drive.

Teams whose supposed stars play like that don't win many games.

[trapezeus]

gilmore was good before they changed the rules. he's best at being physical, and unless you are that one detroit cb on watkins in the third quarter, physical got removed from the cb's.

i'm all for ragging on front office decisions because they make so many poor calls, but gilmore at the time didn't seem ridiculous.

[cookie G]

We won in spite of them, not because of them.

Gilmore had the pick, but he also had a touchdown in his grill and a penalty on 3rd down that extended a drive.

Teams whose supposed stars play like that don't win many games.


sorry grouchy man, but nearly all, if not all of the 6 sacks allowed were coverage sacks.

What that means is...the secondary was doing its job. (And I'm not one to give the secondary props very often).

But its much like having an LT that doesn't give up a sack...when you don't notice them, they are doing what they are supposed to.

As far as teh penalty..wow that was a terrible call. Megatron has him by the facemask and they call a penalty on HIM?

All I know is the D shut down the NFL's 4th ranked passing game and gave up a single TD.

I really don't know what you expect.

[pmoon6]

We won in spite of them, not because of them.

Gilmore had the pick, but he also had a touchdown in his grill and a penalty on 3rd down that extended a drive.

Teams whose supposed stars play like that don't win many games.Don't say "We". You have been relieved of your Fan card.

[BertSquirtgum]

I think the Bills should try and trade Spiller.

[BillsOverDolphins]

Gilmore is painfully underwhelming

[swiper]

A big reason why this team doesn't win: high draft picks playing like average mod round players. Sure, these guys make a play every now and then, but they disappear for long stretches and are prone to mistakes.

Spiller's lack of development is alarming. He still can't block, and he still dances looking for a hole, turning plays that should be small gains into losses. He literally looks like he hasn't improved at all since he was a rookie.

And Gilmore hasn't had his obligatory penalty yet so wait for it.

After Sunday's win in Detroit, someone asked what Bills fans would complain about now that Manuel is on the bench and Orton is heading up comeback wins.

I guess we have our answer.

[Historian]

Spiller has been a colossal underachiever, but at some point, I think you have to hold on to your top picks and build your team around the, and lock the revolving door.

I put a lot of his problems on the play calling.

Spiller cannot run between the tackles...he needs the ball in open space.

It's up to the staff to figure out a way to do that.

[DraftBoy]

Before we trade Spiller I'd like to try and get at least one capable OG into the line and see if that doesn't help him.

[The King]

The game changed on Gilmore and he has yet to adapt. I liked his style of play before the rule change.

[The King]

Spiller has been a colossal underachiever, but at some point, I think you have to hold on to your top picks and build your team around the, and lock the revolving door.

I put a lot of his problems on the play calling.

Spiller cannot run between the tackles...he needs the ball in open space.

It's up to the staff to figure out a way to do that.

Is it worth paying a RB1 top money who can't do anything but bounce it outside?

[Historian]

Depends on the amount, I guess.

I'm just tied of bleeding talent.

Or potential talent.

[The King]

Depends on the amount, I guess.

I'm just tied of bleeding talent.

Or potential talent.

Look at how guys like Asiata, Blue, Andre Williams and Forsett have performed in relief this year. You can't allocate huge money to RB's who aren't elite.

[Fletch]

Spiller has been a colossal underachiever, but at some point, I think you have to hold on to your top picks and build your team around the, and lock the revolving door.

I put a lot of his problems on the play calling.

Spiller cannot run between the tackles...he needs the ball in open space.

It's up to the staff to figure out a way to do that.

"Open space" is a cliche in the NFL. What it means is with no one around him. Which players don't perform better in "open space?"

It's kinda like saying that a QB needs protection and a pocket, also blatant and a cliche. But QBs like Brady and Manning help themselves by passing in a manner that helps them create that protection. When teams historically have tried to heavy rush them they end up burning them more often than they get sacked.

Same thing with this "open space" thing. Of course Spiller runs better in open space. So will Watkins or any other player. But unfortunately "open space" doesn't exist in the NFL like it does in college. The players in the NFL are ridiculously faster than those in college, every player will tell you that, it's not merely mo.

Isn't it just possible that this "open space" thing is more myth than anything else?

Look at Barry Sanders when he ran, he was the best, but he did it not in open space, he just juked players out of their jocks.

All we've heard about is Spiller's speed, and Watkins speed too, since both were drafted. How much faster they are than other NFL players. Well if that's so, then how come they get run down when they finally hit open stride "in space?" If not, Spiller would have a lot more TDs than he does. He's not even good for regular long TD runs, so if he's not good at that, supposedly his specialty when he came here, then what is he good for.

Watkins will be better simply because he plays WR but I strongly suspect that he won't be much more than Moulds was.

Either way, it's obvious, but no one wants to admit it. Their speed advantages in the NFL just aren't going to propel them to greatness like it did in college. And I keep saying this but no one seems to care, Spiller was NOT a notable rusher in college, he was very very average as a RB carrying the ball. So why on earth is anyone expecting more here in the NFL? He made his reputation there on return TDs that were electrifying. He's got 2 return TDs in 82 returns.

Yeah, they were electrifying in college where he had 1 return TD for every 16 returns. So why can't he duplicate that in the NFL? We cannot argue that the dynamics of kick or punt returns aren't the same, they're identical. There's no play-calling, no forcing him to "run up the middle," or anything else. So why can't he do it?

It's simple, when you draft players on speed only, and ignore things like the FACT that Spiller was only an average ball carrier, then this is what you get. You reap the fruits of your own lack of being able to see these things.

It really is simple. So why make it more complicated. That's the front office's job.

[Fletch]

I think the Bills should try and trade Spiller.

What do you think we would or should get for him as he's on the cusp of free agency?

If Spiller were on another team, what would you give up as a GM? (not a Raiders or Redskins GM that is)

[imbondz]

I don't get the Spiller hate. He's not going to average 100yds rushing / game. But he's always going to get crucial extra yards after the catch, he's going to make that one great play that changes momentum. He can catch, run and play special teams. I don't want him traded at all.

[OpIv37]

After Sunday's win in Detroit, someone asked what Bills fans would complain about now that Manuel is on the bench and Orton is heading up comeback wins.

I guess we have our answer.

Because whoever asked that question is stupid to think that everything is perfect because we won. We don't get ronpkay Detroit every week- we have to play NE next.

And for the record, I posted this thread during the game when we were still losing.

[Fletch]

Depends on the amount, I guess.

I'm just tied of bleeding talent.

Or potential talent.

The future of this franchise hinges entirely on what Kim now does regarding the front office situation.

Is she bold and forceful enough to ****can the entire crew, Brandon, Mary Owen, Littman, Overdorf, Majeski, and a bunch of others including the scouting staff?

Or is she going to "not try to make too many waves" at first?

It's great that they own the team now, but the second part of that and the more important part is how they now continue to run it. Either they're going to start running it competently and continue to reap praise, or the jubilation of them buying the team is going to dissipate quickly as they continue to run things in the same manner that has brought us record futility.

No one expects them to fire anyone prior to the end of the season, but if it were me, on the team's 8th loss, if it happens, I'd send a strong message by ditching Whaley.

If Whaley, Brandon, Marrone and the rest are around on January 1st then it won't be a good sign.

[OpIv37]

I don't get the Spiller hate. He's not going to average 100yds rushing / game. But he's always going to get crucial extra yards after the catch, he's going to make that one great play that changes momentum. He can catch, run and play special teams. I don't want him traded at all.

The problem is that those big momentum changing plays are getting fewer and fewer. Meanwhile, he hasn't improved at all in the routine stuff. He still can't block. He still doesn't know when to put his head down and take a 2 yard gain rather than taking a 3 yard loss waiting for a hole that will never come. It's infuriating.

[Fletch]

Because whoever asked that question is stupid to think that everything is perfect because we won. We don't get ronpkay Detroit every week- we have to play NE next.

And for the record, I posted this thread during the game when we were still losing.

This is another season that so far has been built on smoke-n-mirrors. Detroit was nothing without Bell and Calvin Johnson and Bush. Again. Tate, Fuller, and Winn. Seriously?

Houston was also hampered without Foster for most of the game and at partial strength otherwise. Chicago just self-imploded, something every team gets once or twice a season though. San Diego was without Matthews which is huge, and Gates and at least one other starting WR, forget which one, were limited, not to mention their east coast trip.

Everyone talks about these games as if we faced their full talent, but we didn't. They were worse off than we are. This weekend will be this team's first major test. If we're as good as most people here say we are then we should easily split with the Pats and be able to beat either Green Bay or KC or both, both of which are home games.

I don't see too many teams fronting RBs like Winn and Brown at RB though, or WRs like Fuller down the road. So if we're going to make the playoffs then we're going to have to start beating teams showing up with more talent than we've faced thus far. Everyone talks about 3-point losses in past seasons, well two of our wins were 3 point wins, one in OT, another courtesy of a kicker that can't hit a garage door from 10' away.

[Fletch]

The problem is that those big momentum changing plays are getting fewer and fewer. Meanwhile, he hasn't improved at all in the routine stuff. He still can't block. He still doesn't know when to put his head down and take a 2 yard gain rather than taking a 3 yard loss waiting for a hole that will never come. It's infuriating.

Here's what I don't get. He wasn't a good blocker in college, so why is anyone expecting him to be here?

He wasn't that great a rusher in college, so why is anyone expecting him to be here?

He was better as a receiver out of the backfield in college, but hardly stellar there either, so why are expecting more here?

The one area that he excelled in at Clemson was K and P returns, but he's had very limited success here too. He had his first KR for a TD in his third game here and everyone went ape**** talking about how he was going to set records and all the rest that accompanies one big play here. We haven't seen another return TD from him, P or K, until week 2 this year against Miami, 60 games later.

Spiller is a role-playing RB that cannot be counted on for any consistency whatsoever. What is a RB like that worth? To me they're a dime a dozen.

[Historian]

Open space to me, means some room to work. Some room to use his feet to make a big play.

To make that first guy miss.

To get into a foot race with a DB.

As opposed to plowing him into the line every first down.

[Fletch]

I don't get the Spiller hate. He's not going to average 100yds rushing / game. But he's always going to get crucial extra yards after the catch, he's going to make that one great play that changes momentum.

Really? What's the evidence of that? You can start by pointing out all the games that he's actually done that in to a significant extent, then figuring out how many of them were wins that his performances helped us win. Hint: It's not many.

I don't think it's about hate, I think it's about reality. I don't get the love for a very mediocre player.

[Fletch]

Gilmore is painfully underwhelming

He's an OK CB. Was he worth a 10th overall? No, but he's hardly the source of our biggest problems and still the best CB we have even if that's an underwhelming statement. Should raise questions as to how good this D really is if anything.

[bf1]

My 6 year old (6 YEAR OLD!) son keeps asking me "why does cj spiller always run out of bounds?" He notices it. Glad I'm not alone. He plays scared I think. Refuses to cut back. Yes he's fast but not fast enough to get around the outside of NFL linebackers. He was probably used to outrunning college lbs around the edge.

[jimmifli]

Open space to me, means some room to work. Some room to use his feet to make a big play.

To make that first guy miss.

To get into a foot race with a DB.

As opposed to plowing him into the line every first down.
Spiller's main advantage isn't his speed. It's his ability to change direction at speed. Which obviously means he needs to accelerate to top speed first, once that happens he becomes more dangerous.

Chan found a few ways to make that happen.

Which was mostly running out of shotgun behind a pulling guard. A few yards to accelerate and some time to see the hole develop.

[Dr. Lecter]

A pulling guard?

When did the Bills have one of those?

Oh, wait........

[jimmifli]

A pulling guard?

When did the Bills have one of those?

Oh, wait........
And he may or may not have been worth the money.

But you can't have it both ways. If you've a got a little shifty little running back that needs space, you need an Oline that matches. If you build a big heavy slow OLine, then get a pounder that can run inside for a 3.8 ypc. OR play the old man that can do it all.

[mightysimi]

He's an OK CB. Was he worth a 10th overall? No, but he's hardly the source of our biggest problems and still the best CB we have even if that's an underwhelming statement. Should raise questions as to how good this D really is if anything.

I would say that McKelvin is 3 times the player now than he was in his first 4-5 years. Still can't catch though. I think with Gilmore, the talent is there and he can improve.

As for Spiller, just saying he wasn't good at something in college isn't that solid of an argument. Unless Buffalo runs the exact same plays with the exact same scheme, how can it be the complete end all of the evaluation process? Clearly someone thought his skills would fit into the Chan Gailey offence and I remember Chan saying they wanted a change of pace, skat back sort of guy. That is what he was drafted to be and he played well in that role. Now to get mad years later because he isn't AP is a little off. Now if a situational guy should be drafted in the top half of the first round is a seperate argument.

Having said that, if we could get San Diego or another RB needy team to bite then we should take it.

[kingJofNYC]

Andy Benoit is calling Gilmore a potential shutdown star this week in his SI piece, guy watches more film than anyone in this thread. Yeah, Gilmore sucks, lol.

He's had rough patches but some of you guys act like hes Leodis bad, Leodis is are worst corner and he gets more snaps than anyone. Robey's had a roughs sophmore season too. He's a good ****ing player for us. Look at the coverage sacks we had as cookie pointed out. What are some of you watching. Are you confusing Robey with Gilmore? Is this how Winfield stunk as a Bill and then everyone lamented his loss when he played well for the Vikes?

[BillsOverDolphins]

Andy Benoit is calling Gilmore a potential shutdown star this week in his SI piece, guy watches more film than anyone in this thread. Yeah, Gilmore sucks, lol.

He's had rough patches but some of you guys act like hes Leodis bad, Leodis is are worst corner and he gets more snaps than anyone. Robey's had a roughs sophmore season too. He's a good ****ing player for us. Look at the coverage sacks we had as cookie pointed out. What are some of you watching. Are you confusing Robey with Gilmore? Is this how Winfield stunk as a Bill and then everyone lamented his loss when he played well for the Vikes?

We're watching a player who is nowhere near the value of a #10 pick. By all means though, enjoy the 8 games he'll play this year

[YardRat]

Before we trade Spiller I'd like to try and get at least one capable OG into the line and see if that doesn't help him.

Richardson needs to improve from week to week, he's a rookie so almost everything is going to be new to him on Sundays. Hopefully they are working KuJo in at G during practices, he may be the OT best suited to make the move inside. Wood is still an average center, we could do better. Best case scenario, eventually IMO, would be Glenn-Richardson-Wood-Kujo-Henderson or Glenn-Richardson-New Guy-Wood-Henderson.


We're watching a player who is nowhere near the value of a #10 pick. By all means though, enjoy the 8 games he'll play this year

Once the draft is over and pads are put on, where they were picked is immaterial. Gilmore (or anybody else, for that matter) have to play at a professional level that positively contributes to team success, and that is all. If they can accomplish that, then they were worth the crapshoot of drafting them to begin with, regardless of what round they were taken in.

[DraftBoy]

Richardson needs to improve from week to week, he's a rookie so almost everything is going to be new to him on Sundays. Hopefully they are working KuJo in at G during practices, he may be the OT best suited to make the move inside. Wood is still an average center, we could do better. Best case scenario, eventually IMO, would be Glenn-Richardson-Wood-Kujo-Henderson or Glenn-Richardson-New Guy-Wood-Henderson.

Richardson isn't even a sure starter at this point and while he needs to improve from week to week I'm not sure you're going to see enough growth this year to get to a point where he is consistently good this season. Kujo shouldn't see the field this year at all.

I don't get some of your player evaluations Eric Wood is a very good NFL center. He's the one making the blocking calls and protection adjustments, his snaps are strong, and his anchor is above average. Is he able to block Wilfork one on one? No but I'm not sure there is a center in the league who can. Wood is far from the interior of this OL problem.

[Fletch]

I would say that McKelvin is 3 times the player now than he was in his first 4-5 years. Still can't catch though. I think with Gilmore, the talent is there and he can improve.

As for Spiller, just saying he wasn't good at something in college isn't that solid of an argument. Unless Buffalo runs the exact same plays with the exact same scheme, how can it be the complete end all of the evaluation process? Clearly someone thought his skills would fit into the Chan Gailey offence and I remember Chan saying they wanted a change of pace, skat back sort of guy. That is what he was drafted to be and he played well in that role. Now to get mad years later because he isn't AP is a little off. Now if a situational guy should be drafted in the top half of the first round is a seperate argument.

Having said that, if we could get San Diego or another RB needy team to bite then we should take it.

As to McKelvin, I would argue that he's a beneficiary of a system that makes him look better. He's no great m2m cover corner, he just isn't. I wouldn't even call him average. You don't magically get better like that six or seven years into a career.

As to Spiller, I think it is relevant how he played in college. If you go back, the hype for him was all about his electrifying plays. The problems there are several.

First, most of them were against some of the worse defenses in college. You can call that irrelevant but the talent against which he did that simply isn't in the NFL.

Secondly, his most electrifying plays were returns, not rushes. He had a handful of great receptions that he turned in gold there, but again, only sparingly against any good teams and defenses.

The very first question that needs to be asked before drafting a player is can that player duplicate the kind of success he had in college at the pro level.

I said it days after Manuel was drafted, and even posted the link to that article that someone else recently posted that was from just prior to the draft last year, and now everyone's talking about it as if it's wisdom, but when I posted it all I got was slammed. It contained very relevant information and the lack of an endorsement by several people and fully explained why Manuel was highly unlikely to enjoy success at the NFL level. The reasons were stated. Now everyone acknowledges them without homer glasses and talks about how we should have known, which was my pitch as soon as we made the pick.

Either way, that's water under the dam and on Whaley who's admitted culpability.

Same thing for these other guys. You say that just because Spiller (or any player for that matter) wasn't good at something in college doesn't mean that he won't be good at it in the NFL. How many occupations does that apply to?

How many things can you say that people that don't succeed at something at an amateur level will have a better chance of succeeding at it at a professional level?

There's no basis at all for implying that either.

The bottom line here is that Spiller is as you say, a role player. And if you have to structure an entire system around a player just to get him to be effective, then maybe he's not worth having around. Seems to me that there's equal if not more potential for disruption than for anything positive.

System don't win games, players do.

It was supposed to have been Spiller's moves and speed that would make him great. The system really shouldn't matter if that's true. But have we seen that with anything even approaching regularity? Hardly. The one thing that he was fantastic at in college he's about average at in the NFL and that's returning punts and kicks. His 102 KR TD this year boosted his average up to above average, but that's the first return TD since his third game in the NFL At that rate it'll be 2017 before we see another. He was below average on KRs coming into the season and his average is only going to drop on this season.

[Night Train]

A pulling guard?

When did the Bills have one of those?

Oh, wait........


Reggie McKenzie may be 65... but he can still move !

[Historian]

Reggie McKenzie may be 65... but he can still move !

Or Joe D!

[YardRat]

Richardson isn't even a sure starter at this point and while he needs to improve from week to week I'm not sure you're going to see enough growth this year to get to a point where he is consistently good this season. Kujo shouldn't see the field this year at all.

Granted on both points, but then again I never anointed either as cemented in their position, or irreplaceable. If you read the post again, I said Richardson needs to improve consistently, and was intentionally specific about KuJo and practice.


I don't get some of your player evaluations Eric Wood is a very good NFL center. He's the one making the blocking calls and protection adjustments, his snaps are strong, and his anchor is above average. Is he able to block Wilfork one on one? No but I'm not sure there is a center in the league who can. Wood is far from the interior of this OL problem.

I'm not going to respond by trying to degrade Wood in any manner, I like the guy and he is decent...we certainly could do worse. That being said the great majority of centers in the league make the blocking calls and adjustments, snap strong, and anchor well. He certainly isn't superlative to many of his peers in those areas, however. The Bills have never been very good at getting good push on short yardage up the middle, and have always been susceptible to bull pass rushes up the middle. Some of that, of course, is because Wood has been doomed to playing next to lightweight (Levitre) and below average (Pears) guards, but some of that is on him also. We can continue to do well with him at center (you should have noticed that one of my best case scenarios left Wood where he is), but I would like to see a little bit more power out of the center position, and think the oline would be better off with a real stud in the middle and shifting him to guard.

I guess that makes him to me what Glenn is to you (or was, if you have changed your mind about him recently)....good where he is, but could be better (along with the line as a unit) if he slid over a spot.

[OpIv37]

"
Andy Benoit is calling Gilmore a potential shutdown star this week in his SI piece, guy watches more film than anyone in this thread. Yeah, Gilmore sucks, lol.

He's had rough patches but some of you guys act like hes Leodis bad, Leodis is are worst corner and he gets more snaps than anyone. Robey's had a roughs sophmore season too. He's a good ****ing player for us. Look at the coverage sacks we had as cookie pointed out. What are some of you watching. Are you confusing Robey with Gilmore? Is this how Winfield stunk as a Bill and then everyone lamented his loss when he played well for the Vikes?
Don't know who Benoit is or give a **** what he says.

When I watch Gilmore I see a lot of receptions right in his grill, including a couple of TD's already this year. I don't see a lot of plays on the bal. I see a lot of penalties, including one against Detroit on 3rd down that extended a drive. And no, I'm not confusing Robey with Gilmore, although Robey has his share of mistakes as well.

[YardRat]

"
Don't know who Benoit is or give a **** what he says.

When I watch Gilmore I see a lot of receptions right in his grill, including a couple of TD's already this year. I don't see a lot of plays on the bal. I see a lot of penalties, including one against Detroit on 3rd down that extended a drive. And no, I'm not confusing Robey with Gilmore, although Robey has his share of mistakes as well.

Even you have to admit the penalty called on Gilmore was complete bull****.

[OpIv37]

Even you have to admit the penalty called on Gilmore was complete bull****.

Ok. Explain all his other penalties.

[YardRat]

Ok. Explain all his other penalties.

****ty refs.

That was easy.

[YardRat]

Gilmore has been flagged four times this season...the same as Joe Haden, Patrick Peterson, Troy Polamalu, Antoine Cason, and Vontae Davis.

Wow...what a bunch of losers.

http://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties-player.html

[OpIv37]

Gilmore has been flagged four times this season...the same as Joe Haden, Patrick Peterson, Troy Polamalu, Antoine Cason, and Vontae Davis.

Wow...what a bunch of losers.

http://www.footballdb.com/stats/penalties-player.html

Don't care what those guys did. 4 in 5 games is far too many.

And btw- Penalties aren't the only stat. Those guys make up for their penalties with other big plays. Gilmore doesn't.

But, this is par for the course for BZ. People pick their favorite players and defend them no matter how much they underperform. I'll never understand defending the players who are holding the team back, but people like you insist on it.

[YardRat]

Don't care what those guys did. 4 in 5 games is far too many.

And btw- Penalties aren't the only stat. Those guys make up for their penalties with other big plays. Gilmore doesn't.

But, this is par for the course for BZ. People pick their favorite players and defend them no matter how much they underperform. I'll never understand defending the players who are holding the team back, but people like you insist on it.

Of course you don't care, because the facts don't support your opinion. Your contention is that one of the reasons Gilmore sucks and 'is holding the team back' is because of his penalties, and yet it's right there in the stat sheets that his penalties are no more prevalent than other corners around the league that are generally considered to play at a high level.

Peterson and Haden have exactly 1 pass defensed this season, same as Gilmore.
Peterson has 11 tackles, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 interceptions.
Haden has 21 tackles, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 interceptions.
Gilmore has 15 tackles, 0 forced fumbles and 1 interceptions.

What are these 'big plays' that the other corners are making that Gilmore isn't that you are referring to?

[Fletch]

Of course you don't care, because the facts don't support your opinion. Your contention is that one of the reasons Gilmore sucks and 'is holding the team back' is because of his penalties, and yet it's right there in the stat sheets that his penalties are no more prevalent than other corners around the league that are generally considered to play at a high level.

Peterson and Haden have exactly 1 pass defensed this season, same as Gilmore.
Peterson has 11 tackles, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 interceptions.
Haden has 21 tackles, 0 forced fumbles, and 0 interceptions.
Gilmore has 15 tackles, 0 forced fumbles and 1 interceptions.

What are these 'big plays' that the other corners are making that Gilmore isn't that you are referring to?

How many TDs have gone over those guys?

I'd say that's relevant if you're looking at the stats, wouldn't you? Not sure that that's a kept stat.

Peterson prides himself on being a shutdown CB and teams typically don't throw his way, which would explain the lack of PDs, wouldn't it? The obvious answer is yes. I don't see teams avoiding Gilmore, so the difference there is simply not getting the job done.

Deion Sanders had few PDs and the like because no one ever threw his way, almost as a rule. Gilmore's hardly that player. So if you're going to throw out stats, throw them all out there to look at, not just the ones that you seem to think make sense.

Not arguing, just trying to help you out, you're obviously one of the more biased posters out there. Other posters like you, maybe you too, often say to just watch the games and you can see, well, just watch the games and you can see. I mean honestly, are you really comparing Gilmore to Peterson? Seriously?

I don't follow Haden much but the same things need to be looked at there. I only know Peterson because he's higher profile.

[YardRat]

How many TDs have gone over those guys?

I'd say that's relevant if you're looking at the stats, wouldn't you? Not sure that that's a kept stat.

Peterson prides himself on being a shutdown CB and teams typically don't throw his way, which would explain the lack of PDs, wouldn't it? The obvious answer is yes. I don't see teams avoiding Gilmore, so the difference there is simply not getting the job done.

Deion Sanders had few PDs and the like because no one ever threw his way, almost as a rule. Gilmore's hardly that player. So if you're going to throw out stats, throw them all out there to look at, not just the ones that you seem to think make sense.

Not arguing, just trying to help you out, you're obviously one of the more biased posters out there. Other posters like you, maybe you too, often say to just watch the games and you can see, well, just watch the games and you can see. I mean honestly, are you really comparing Gilmore to Peterson? Seriously?

I don't follow Haden much but the same things need to be looked at there. I only know Peterson because he's higher profile.

I've been looking for 'times thrown at' and 'td's given up' stats, but haven't found any yet...would like to see them myself also.

IMO the 'bias' can also come from fans who are accustomed to watching Bills' games only, and passing judgement on only that information.

Why is the lack of pd's 'obviously' attributable to teams not throwing at Peterson, but the same assumption isn't given to Gilmore? One of the arguments against Gilmore is he takes too many penalties, and that has already been proven that he hasn't taken any more penalties than other cornerbacks around the league that are actually considered elite.

[pmoon6]

I've been looking for 'times thrown at' and 'td's given up' stats, but haven't found any yet...would like to see them myself also.

IMO the 'bias' can also come from fans who are accustomed to watching Bills' games only, and passing judgement on only that information.

Why is the lack of pd's 'obviously' attributable to teams not throwing at Peterson, but the same assumption isn't given to Gilmore? One of the arguments against Gilmore is he takes too many penalties, and that has already been proven that he hasn't taken any more penalties than other cornerbacks around the league that are actually considered elite.Don't try to rain on Opie and Filth's crybaby parade.

They are so good at it.

Must suck for them to have been born a woman in a man's body.

[Fletch]

Why is the lack of pd's 'obviously' attributable to teams not throwing at Peterson, but the same assumption isn't given to Gilmore? One of the arguments against Gilmore is he takes too many penalties, and that has already been proven that he hasn't taken any more penalties than other cornerbacks around the league that are actually considered elite.

Seriously?

For starters Peterson is mentioned in the same breath as Revis and Sherman. That's just the way it is. If you don't like that then take it up with all the TV people doing it. So we can start there.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/shutdown-corner/patrick-peterson--the-cardinals-cornerback-with-the-master-plan-005822647.html


You can argue if Peterson is the best cornerback in the game, and it has become a popular debate. Peterson, Sherman, Cleveland's Joe Haden and New England's Darrelle Revis are the consensus top four.

Peterson is the highest paid CB in the league now.

Find for me anything, anything at all comparing Gilmore to Peterson, Sherman, Revis, or Haden.

Anything.

Lastly, have you watched our games this season? Gilmore's been gone over at least twice and had numerous catches on him otherwise, and not always by top talent either.

Show us all the replays of a WR burning Peterson.

[Fletch]

Only in a Bills forum would we have anyone defending Gilmore by suggesting that he's got skills in line with Peterson, Sherman, Revis, or Haden.

[swiper]

Don't try to rain on Opie and Filth's crybaby parade.

They are so good at it.

Must suck for them to have been born a woman in a man's body.

Genderist!

[BillsOverDolphins]

If you made a list of all the things pmoon's been wrong about (or feigned bravado over) concerning the Bills we'd be here forever.

These are things we know

[ublinkwescore]

Mckelvin, Maybin, Whitner, Spiller, Manuel, Gilmore, Dareus, McCargo, Lynch, Evans, Losman, McGahee, Mike Williams, Clements, Erik Flowers.

Doesn't take an Enstein to figure out why the Bills have sucked the past 14+ years.

Hold on a second there pal... McKelvin is doing very good for us the last two seasons. Dareus is elite. Lynch is a workhorse in seattle, though he wasn't as good for us, he was very solid. lee evans was good, Nate clements earned his pay day with san francisco while playing for buffalo, and that hit he delivered on brady still gives me a boner. but yeah, there had/has to be better options than those players i didn't mention...

[swiper]

I try and feign bravado as often as I can.

Me's got internet muscles like Popeye!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-uzuxScVOL7E/Tin7LIeQkrI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/cz_N1Xk1UBw/s1600/148429N01S001_bthumb.png

[pmoon6]

If you made a list of all the things pmoon's been wrong about (or feigned bravado over) concerning the Bills we'd be here forever.

These are things we knowHaHaHa. I don't put much credence in being "right" about things that haven't happened yet.

I also don't pump out my chest if I happen to be correct.

Only douchebag Internet personalities find it important.

[Fletch]

Hold on a second there pal... McKelvin is doing very good for us the last two seasons. Dareus is elite. Lynch is a workhorse in seattle, though he wasn't as good for us, he was very solid. lee evans was good, Nate clements earned his pay day with san francisco while playing for buffalo, and that hit he delivered on brady still gives me a boner. but yeah, there had/has to be better options than those players i didn't mention...

Last season everyone was *****ing about Dareus. He's had a few good games in a row but he's got to prove that he can play like that consistently. This stuff about McKelvin being good and Dareus being elite are kneejerk reactions. Dareus is two no-shows away from being slammed again and McKelvin didn't just magically become a good corner overnight. Last season he benefitted from the system just like all the DBs. But yeah, I forget, it was only Byrd that capitalized on that, the others all improved as we're to believe.

But Dareus, elite? This is just one more of those temperamental things that becomes popular here with the wind blowing in the proper direction.

[BillsOverDolphins]

HaHaHa. I don't put much credence in being "right" about things that haven't happened yet.

I also don't pump out my chest if I happen to be correct.

Only douchebag Internet personalities find it important.
see right there, you're doing exactly what you proclaim to hate. You do the "if you think Player A is bad, you're just a whiner and a bad fan!" routine. As if anybody with an objective view that comes off as negative is a bad person who is unworthy. You insist on toeing the company line at all times. Pretty vanilla, tbh. Every fanbase has that guy, unfortunately.

[Fletch]

HaHaHa. I don't put much credence in being "right" about things that haven't happened yet.

I also don't pump out my chest if I happen to be correct.

Only douchebag Internet personalities find it important.

Yeah, it's usually the ones that accuse everyone else of trying to be right when all of their other arguments run out.

Those that say things like, "if we win then it was because of [insert reason], but if we lose then you get to say you were right."

[pmoon6]

Yeah, it's usually the ones that accuse everyone else of trying to be right when all of their other arguments run out.

Those that say things like, "if we win then it was because of [insert reason], but if we lose then you get to say you were right."All I do is enjoy watching the games of my favorite team.

I don't usually make predictions, but I did say the Bills will make the playoffs this year. I will be happy if I am correct, but if they don't ...c'est la vie.

The only people that are hypercritical of a football team are losers that have little else in their lives. It's also a defense mechanism to prevent being disappointed should their team play bad.

This pretty much sums up the myriad of critics and negative posters that actually think they know something.

"It is not the critic who counts;
not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood;
who strives valiantly;
who errs and comes short again and again;
who knows great enthusiasms,
the great devotions;
who spends himself in a worthy cause;
who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement,
and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly
so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ~ Theodore Roosevelt.

So, you can keep up your asinine posts, but you two are the furthest thing from a fan as you can get. Armchair coaches and GM's that think they can do something better than the pro's that are paid to do it. I have no problem with guys that point out the teams or a players shortcomings, but when the critique is always negative and neverending, it becomes a bit much.

So, boyos, put on a helmet or apply for a coaches job if you know so much or can do a better job than our players, otherwise STFU.

[OpIv37]

I've been looking for 'times thrown at' and 'td's given up' stats, but haven't found any yet...would like to see them myself also.

IMO the 'bias' can also come from fans who are accustomed to watching Bills' games only, and passing judgement on only that information.

Why is the lack of pd's 'obviously' attributable to teams not throwing at Peterson, but the same assumption isn't given to Gilmore? One of the arguments against Gilmore is he takes too many penalties, and that has already been proven that he hasn't taken any more penalties than other cornerbacks around the league that are actually considered elite.

Elite cb's play like elite CB's, so an occasional penalty becomes more palatable. The good plays more than make up for the bad ones.

That's not the case with Gilmore. IMO the bias comes from Bills fans picking a player they like or being excited when he got drafted, then defending him no matter what. You already gave that nonsense spiel about how draft position doesn't matter. Now you're comparing negative stats with elite CB's without acknowledging that Gilmore doesn't back up the negative plays with elite play like those other guys.

And finally, just because Peterson has 4 penalties in 5 games doesn't make it acceptable, elite or not.

[OpIv37]

All I do is enjoy watching the games of my favorite team.

I don't usually make predictions, but I did say the Bills will make the playoffs this year. I will be happy if I am correct, but if they don't ...c'est la vie.

The only people that are hypercritical of a football team are losers that have little else in their lives. It's also a defense mechanism to prevent being disappointed should their team play bad.

This pretty much sums up the myriad of critics and negative posters that actually think they know something.

"It is not the critic who counts;
not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,
whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood;
who strives valiantly;
who errs and comes short again and again;
who knows great enthusiasms,
the great devotions;
who spends himself in a worthy cause;
who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement,
and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly
so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ~ Theodore Roosevelt.

So, you can keep up your asinine posts, but you two are the furthest thing from a fan as you can get. Armchair coaches and GM's that think they can do something better than the pro's that are paid to do it. I have no problem with guys that point out the teams or a players shortcomings, but when the critique is always negative and neverending, it becomes a bit much.

So, boyos, put on a helmet or apply for a coaches job if you know so much or can do a better job than our players, otherwise STFU.

Epic bull****.

First, the bolded part: no amount of criticism applied before hand prevents disappointment at poor play. The so called defense mechanism doesn't exist.

Second, people criticizing the players or coaches aren't saying we can do better. That's not the standard. The standard is to win football games in the NFL, and the players and coaches get paid lots and lots of money to do that. Of course they are going to be criticized when they fail to do it. If that's your standard, then this board should have one post on opening day that says "THE BILLS ARE GOING TO WIN THE SUPER BOWL!!!! Woooooooo!!!!" And then get shut down until the next opening day.

Third, there are a LOT of posters on this board who got things right when the coaches and FO got them wrong. Performance dictates competence, not title, and it's been decades since this team has had the performance.

[pmoon6]

Epic bull****.

First, the bolded part: no amount of criticism applied before hand prevents disappointment at poor play. The so called defense mechanism doesn't exist.

Second, people criticizing the players or coaches aren't saying we can do better. That's not the standard. The standard is to win football games in the NFL, and the players and coaches get paid lots and lots of money to do that. Of course they are going to be criticized when they fail to do it. If that's your standard, then this board should have one post on opening day that says "THE BILLS ARE GOING TO WIN THE SUPER BOWL!!!! Woooooooo!!!!" And then get shut down until the next opening day.

Third, there are a LOT of posters on this board who got things right when the coaches and FO got them wrong. Performance dictates competence, not title, and it's been decades since this team has had the performance.Right on cue.

Maybe I should be a motivational speaker.

[OpIv37]

Right on cue.

Maybe I should be a motivational speaker.

yeah, you ironically criticize people for being critical and then you call them gay or effeminate. Somewhere R. Lee Ermey is proud. Everyone else thinks you're full of ****.

[swiper]

yeah, you ironically criticize people for being critical and then you call them gay or effeminate. Somewhere R. Lee Ermey is proud. Everyone else thinks you're full of ****.

AKA feigning bravado.

[YardRat]

Seriously?

For starters Peterson is mentioned in the same breath as Revis and Sherman. That's just the way it is. If you don't like that then take it up with all the TV people doing it. So we can start there.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/shutdown-corner/patrick-peterson--the-cardinals-cornerback-with-the-master-plan-005822647.html



Peterson is the highest paid CB in the league now.

Find for me anything, anything at all comparing Gilmore to Peterson, Sherman, Revis, or Haden.

Anything.

Lastly, have you watched our games this season? Gilmore's been gone over at least twice and had numerous catches on him otherwise, and not always by top talent either.

Show us all the replays of a WR burning Peterson.

Over your head, again...not surprising.

Nobody is saying Gilmore is in the same league as Peterson, Haden or Sherman. Not me, anyway. However, to contend that Gilmore sucks because of penalties, or sucks because he doesn't make plays, is just pulling an opinion out of your ass, especially when some numbers indicate otherwise.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I've been looking for 'times thrown at' and 'td's given up' stats, but haven't found any yet...would like to see them myself also.

IMO the 'bias' can also come from fans who are accustomed to watching Bills' games only, and passing judgement on only that information.

Why is the lack of pd's 'obviously' attributable to teams not throwing at Peterson, but the same assumption isn't given to Gilmore? One of the arguments against Gilmore is he takes too many penalties, and that has already been proven that he hasn't taken any more penalties than other cornerbacks around the league that are actually considered elite.

Pro Football Focus has them, but I don't like PFF at all.

FWIW, Football Outsiders has game charting stats that go by type of wideout. They claim we are 22d against #1s and 26th against #2s so far, though the type of data they use really needs more time to adjust out.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

[YardRat]

Elite cb's play like elite CB's, so an occasional penalty becomes more palatable. The good plays more than make up for the bad ones.

That's not the case with Gilmore. IMO the bias comes from Bills fans picking a player they like or being excited when he got drafted, then defending him no matter what. You already gave that nonsense spiel about how draft position doesn't matter. Now you're comparing negative stats with elite CB's without acknowledging that Gilmore doesn't back up the negative plays with elite play like those other guys.

And finally, just because Peterson has 4 penalties in 5 games doesn't make it acceptable, elite or not.

Corners are going to get beat for touchdowns...all of them, elite or not. There's a reason "have to have short memories" is cemented in their job description. Moreso this season than ever, corners are going to be penalized. All of them...that also comes with the territory. It's inherently part of the position. Gilmore, although he doesn't play at the same level as some others, as consistently, doesn't suck for drawing four penalties anymore than Peterson, Haden et al 'suck' because they've been penalized four times also.

At least make the attempt once in awhile to dazzle with brilliance, instead of baffle with bull****.

[YardRat]

Pro Football Focus has them, but I don't like PFF at all.

FWIW, Football Outsiders has game charting stats that go by type of wideout. They claim we are 22d against #1s and 26th against #2s so far, though the type of data they use really needs more time to adjust out.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

Yeah, PFF doesn't have them without paying for the service, and FO doesn't have individual stats charted that apply (unless I missed them). I've searched both sites. I would like to see them still, can't believe they aren't out there in plain sight. Maybe Gilmore gets thrown at more often, or has been credited with more TD's against than some of the others mentioned...I'm certainly not discounting the possibility without seeing something in writing.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Yeah, PFF doesn't have them without paying for the service, and FO doesn't have individual stats charted that apply (unless I missed them). I've searched both sites. I would like to see them still, can't believe they aren't out there in plain sight. Maybe Gilmore gets thrown at more often, or has been credited with more TD's against than some of the others mentioned...I'm certainly not discounting the possibility without seeing something in writing.

FO doesn't do the individual defender charting stats until after the season, typically. Here's 2013: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/best-cornerback-charting-stats-2013

They also have the individual stats in the Almanac, which is a great buy if you haven't picked it up IMO

[pmoon6]

yeah, you ironically criticize people for being critical and then you call them gay or effeminate. Somewhere R. Lee Ermey is proud. Everyone else thinks you're full of ****.Don't I hear Aunt Bee calling? Yeah, she has an apple pie just out of the oven. Why don't you go home and have a piece, then take a nice hot bath and go to sleepy.

Things may be better in the morning.

Of course, if the Bills win it will be worse in the afternoon.

[pmoon6]

AKA feigning bravado.Hey, it's not "feigning" bravado. I survived several air crashes, saved women and children, and made it through the Normandy landing with a mere flesh wound.

And yes, I know I'm old.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Hey, it's not "feigning" bravado. I survived several air crashes, saved women and children, and made it through the Normandy landing with a mere flesh wound.

And yes, I know I'm old.

Which beach were you defending?

[pmoon6]

Which beach were you defending?The one with the hot French girls sunbathing naked.

[OpIv37]

And yet another TD in Gilmore's grill.... did he make a single play today?

[YardRat]

And yet another TD in Gilmore's grill.... did he make a single play today?

Gilmore was the best defensive back on the field for Buffalo today...don't know if that is really saying much, though, considering the performances by Duke, McKelvin and Robey. The TD was the only glaring mark from his game, he played solid coverage most of the day and was terrific in run support. Even on the TD, he put himself in great over position after catching up to the receiver and got his arm exactly where it should have been without any contact. Granted, it would have been nice to see him rip for the incompletion, but the WR made a great play to secure the ball.

If you watched the second half of the game today, Gilmore should pretty much be near the bottom of your ***** list.

[OpIv37]

Gilmore was the best defensive back on the field for Buffalo today...don't know if that is really saying much, though, considering the performances by Duke, McKelvin and Robey. The TD was the only glaring mark from his game, he played solid coverage most of the day and was terrific in run support. Even on the TD, he put himself in great over position after catching up to the receiver and got his arm exactly where it should have been without any contact. Granted, it would have been nice to see him rip for the incompletion, but the WR made a great play to secure the ball.

If you watched the second half of the game today, Gilmore should pretty much be near the bottom of your ***** list.

He was the best of the worst- I'll give him that. Duke and McKelvin were the true weak links today. Still, Gilmore needs to be better.

[Fletch]

Gilmore was the best defensive back on the field for Buffalo today...don't know if that is really saying much, though, considering the performances by Duke, McKelvin and Robey.

It says very little. This D that many people here have been calling elite after playing a bunch of beat up teams featuring 2nd string starters was exposed today.

Per our earlier conversation, Gilmore allowed a TD to Brian Tyms who had been activated for the first time this season. He caught one pass and it was a TD over Gilmore and Gilmore even had help, two others in triple coverage.

Do you think that Sherman, Peterson, Haden, or Revis would have allowed that?

McKelvin was burned badly by LaFell.

[bf1]

Buddy Nix and crew loved drafting defensive backs high in the draft. Are the same scouts still employed with the team?

[Fletch]

Buddy Nix and crew loved drafting defensive backs high in the draft. Are the same scouts still employed with the team?

Get rid of the entire personnel side of the FO including Whaley. Anytime would do.

[YardRat]

It says very little. This D that many people here have been calling elite after playing a bunch of beat up teams featuring 2nd string starters was exposed today.

The defense was also playing with a cornerback and 2nd year safety that barely saw the field last season for most of the game, AW was out and Searcy was limited. @nd string starters works both ways.


Per our earlier conversation, Gilmore allowed a TD to Brian Tyms who had been activated for the first time this season. He caught one pass and it was a TD over Gilmore and Gilmore even had help, two others in triple coverage.

As I stated earlier, Gilmore actually had great coverage and was in the perfect spot, but he should've been able to rip the ball.


Do you think that Sherman, Peterson, Haden, or Revis would have allowed that?


Yes, I think all of the above have been burnt for touchdowns.


McKelvin was burned badly by LaFell.

Yes, and DW had a horrendous day.

[trapezeus]

spiller is playing himself out of football at this point. if message boards keep telling him to stop bouncing it outside, announcers are saying "stop bouncing it outside" and the numbers are showing bouncing it outside isn't working, what team is going to want him?

[EDS]

Spiller is the ultimate feast or famine player right now. Either he is ripping off a 50+ yard run/catch/return or he is going down within 2 yards of the line of scrimmage.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Spiller is the ultimate feast or famine player right now. Either he is ripping off a 50+ yard run/catch/return or he is going down within 2 yards of the line of scrimmage.


more like behind the f***ing line

[Figster]

Sal Maiorana ‏<s>@</s>salmaiorana (https://twitter.com/salmaiorana) <small class="time"> 5m5 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/salmaiorana/status/522767343391637504) </small> ICYMI: My story on C.J. Spiller: 'I want to be a Bill' http://on.rocne.ws/1w9pICz (http://t.co/pC3mfDbvtM) via <s>@</s>DandC (https://twitter.com/DandC)

(https://twitter.com/salmaiorana/status/522767343391637504)

CJ Spiller needs the ball in space and has not been utilized properly IMO

Why isn't Spiller used more in the passing game?

[YardRat]

Sal Maiorana ‏<s>@</s>salmaiorana (https://twitter.com/salmaiorana) <small class="time"> 5m5 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/salmaiorana/status/522767343391637504) </small> ICYMI: My story on C.J. Spiller: 'I want to be a Bill' http://on.rocne.ws/1w9pICz (http://t.co/pC3mfDbvtM) via <s>@</s>DandC (https://twitter.com/DandC)
(https://twitter.com/salmaiorana/status/522767343391637504)

CJ Spiller needs the ball in space and has not been utilized properly IMO

Why isn't Spiller used more in the passing game?

For a RB to be effective in the passing game, he has to be a threat running the ball first, and at least be a good enough blocker to make the defense guess if he's staying in or leaking. Spiller has been neither. If a RB is going to split out wide from the start, he needs to know the routes and reads, and I'm pretty sure over the years it's been mentioned around here that CJ struggles with that also.

[The Jokeman]

For a RB to be effective in the passing game, he has to be a threat running the ball first, and at least be a good enough blocker to make the defense guess if he's staying in or leaking. Spiller has been neither. If a RB is going to split out wide from the start, he needs to know the routes and reads, and I'm pretty sure over the years it's been mentioned around here that CJ struggles with that also.

The guy many compared Spiller coming out in the draft too was Reggie Bush. Bush has never been a great runner but he's a half way decent receiver out of the backfield. I can't say that we're misusing him because quite frankly we're not getting the 3-4 yards on 1st and 2nd downs that would make Spiller a very scary weapon on 3rd downs out of the backfield. I blame it on the O-lineman play ore more specifically our OGs.

[Figster]

For a RB to be effective in the passing game, he has to be a threat running the ball first, and at least be a good enough blocker to make the defense guess if he's staying in or leaking. Spiller has been neither. If a RB is going to split out wide from the start, he needs to know the routes and reads, and I'm pretty sure over the years it's been mentioned around here that CJ struggles with that also.


When you start getting CJ Spiller past the oppositions 1st line of defense and galloping down the field for huge chunks of yardage, something Spiller is clearly capable of doing, it forces the opposition to become less aggressive IMO