dallas silent count at home - bills related

[trapezeus]

for all the people who insist that buffalo can't deal with a new stadium because of the PSLs, look at what PSL's have done to Dallas. Fans are selling their seats to opposing teams to recoup costs. Dallas is perpetually playing away games. they went to a silent count at home because of texan fans. the 49er game was about 50% SF fans.

I wonder if the NFL is paying attention to this trend. and i wonder if they care.

the PSL's don't sell well in NYC for Jets games, the unintended consequence in Dallas is that season ticket holders sell their tickets.

perhaps by the time the bills role around, a PSL will not occur in buffalo.

just food for thought. feel free to disagree.

[imbondz]

ummm. Too many Texans fans at a Cowboys game is totally different than too many Miami fans or Bucs fans there.

[trapezeus]

true, but same thing happened with 49ers at dallas to start the season. just curious that what is supposed to be big market, has so many tickets being sold to opposing team fans.

i'd like to see how it plays out over the season. perhaps dallas fans just want to get to the playoffs and then show up, so they sell their tickets to regular season games. but two home games in a row have had a big differential against their own fans. i've never seen a home team in their real stadium have to go to a silent count.

[better days]

true, but same thing happened with 49ers at dallas to start the season. just curious that what is supposed to be big market, has so many tickets being sold to opposing team fans.

i'd like to see how it plays out over the season. perhaps dallas fans just want to get to the playoffs and then show up, so they sell their tickets to regular season games. but two home games in a row have had a big differential against their own fans. i've never seen a home team in their real stadium have to go to a silent count.

Jerry wanted to build a Taj Mahal & he had his fans help fund it.

Jerry has no one but himself to blame for this.

Minnesota will also have PSL's, but they will be much more affordable.

[jamze132]

for all the people who insist that buffalo can't deal with a new stadium because of the PSLs, look at what PSL's have done to Dallas. Fans are selling their seats to opposing teams to recoup costs. Dallas is perpetually playing away games. they went to a silent count at home because of texan fans. the 49er game was about 50% SF fans.

I wonder if the NFL is paying attention to this trend. and i wonder if they care.

the PSL's don't sell well in NYC for Jets games, the unintended consequence in Dallas is that season ticket holders sell their tickets.

perhaps by the time the bills role around, a PSL will not occur in buffalo.

just food for thought. feel free to disagree.

Man I live in San Antonio now and this whole region was going crazy for that game. It's understandable that half the stadium was Texans fans.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Lets wait and see before we freak out. Maybe they won't have them or maybe they won't be insanely expensive.

[Ed]

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of those fans that sold their tickets sold them before the season started when everyone was pretty down on the Cowboys. I think some of those fans would have kept their tickets if they knew the Cowboys were going to look better than people thought and be winning. Either way, it's still has to be pretty embarrassing for the Cowboys and incredibly annoying for the Cowboy fans that do attend the game. I can't blame anyone for selling their tickets though. Those prices are outrageous.

[SpikedLemonade]

for all the people who insist that buffalo can't deal with a new stadium because of the PSLs, look at what PSL's have done to Dallas. Fans are selling their seats to opposing teams to recoup costs. Dallas is perpetually playing away games. they went to a silent count at home because of texan fans. the 49er game was about 50% SF fans.

I wonder if the NFL is paying attention to this trend. and i wonder if they care.

the PSL's don't sell well in NYC for Jets games, the unintended consequence in Dallas is that season ticket holders sell their tickets.

perhaps by the time the bills role around, a PSL will not occur in buffalo.

just food for thought. feel free to disagree.

It is absolutely disgusting behaviour by Dallas fans to sell their tickets to the opposition.

That would never happen in Buffalo.

Except for Sabre fans selling to Leaf fans.

[THATHURMANATOR]

It is absolutely disgusting behaviour by Dallas fans to sell their tickets to the opposition.

That would never happen in Buffalo.

Except for Sabre fans selling to Leaf fans.

HAHA so true!!!

Although homefield is much more important in football and there are only 8 games.

[trapezeus]

i'm not passing judgement on it. i just think if the trend holds, the PSL that a douchebag owner charged may put his team on the road perpetually. and fans who think "i'll catch it in the post season, might not have a team in post season."

i like little consequences like these in life. i just hope it holds.

[don137]

I agree. PSLs open the door for more opposing fans to attend games. If a season ticket holder moves or cannot afford season tickets anymore one has to sell their PSL in order to stop buying season tickets or else they lose the cost of their PSL. Thus many just sell them on the stub hub or ticketexchange to unload them often at a profit depending on the market. It's legal to sell tickets online for a profit in most if not all states.
I have season tickets to Panthers where they have PSLs and many more opposing team fans attend games than I ever saw in Buffalo. If Buffalo introduces PSLs you will see many more fans attend games in Buffalo.

[SpikedLemonade]

Why worry about PSLs?

Sugar Daddy Terry won't introduce them and keep giving charity to poor Bills fans.

[better days]

Why worry about PSLs?

Sugar Daddy Terry won't introduce them and keep giving charity to poor Bills fans.

Still butt hurt the Bills didn't move to Toronto Eh Spiked?

[YardRat]

I agree. PSLs open the door for more opposing fans to attend games. If a season ticket holder moves or cannot afford season tickets anymore one has to sell their PSL in order to stop buying season tickets or else they lose the cost of their PSL. Thus many just sell them on the stub hub or ticketexchange to unload them often at a profit depending on the market. It's legal to sell tickets online for a profit in most if not all states.
I have season tickets to Panthers where they have PSLs and many more opposing team fans attend games than I ever saw in Buffalo. If Buffalo introduces PSLs you will see many more fans attend games in Buffalo.

I have found this trend to be kind of comical over the last couple of seasons...for years scalpers were the scourge of the NFL, gouging poor fans for the simple pleasure of attending a game. But now, the NFL has an official scalping website, and even pours money into advertising to steer fans in their direction. If you can't beat them, join them, I guess.

[Typ0]

I really don't understand what is being said here. I believe were there no PSL the stadium would still be full for those games with opposing teams fans. That's really the thing that has to be measured here...because if the market was to remain the same the money would just be going into the hands of consumers making a profit off the team instead of the people in business to make a profit from the team.

[YardRat]

I really don't understand what is being said here. I believe were there no PSL the stadium would still be full for those games with opposing teams fans. That's really the thing that has to be measured here...because if the market was to remain the same the money would just be going into the hands of consumers making a profit off the team instead of the people in business to make a profit from the team.

What is being said is that, at least in Dallas, the price of PSL's has encouraged fans to sell some of their tickets to recoup some of the cost, instead of attending the games themselves. The trend is those sales are going to opposing fans instead of hometown fans, and opponents attendance has risen, essentially taking away the home-field advantage. Other teams, without expensive PSL's, apparently aren't experiencing the same phenomena.

[Meathead]

bills already have psl-ish fees for the club level sections like the jim kelly club etc (orange heated seats with indoor bars). dont know what it is now but by my friend told me it was like 10k a seat when they first came out, but i guess that was a one time charge as long as they kept the seats. not sure thats how they still do it or not, but they have no problem selling those

they could then have psls for the high demand seats like the lower bowl and even the upper deck between the thirties and i doubt theyd have any trouble getting rid of those. then the rest of the seats perhaps could be psl-free

[Typ0]

and I am asking based on what is the assertion the PSL cost is the motivator in selling the tickets?


What is being said is that, at least in Dallas, the price of PSL's has encouraged fans to sell some of their tickets to recoup some of the cost, instead of attending the games themselves. The trend is those sales are going to opposing fans instead of hometown fans, and opponents attendance has risen, essentially taking away the home-field advantage. Other teams, without expensive PSL's, apparently aren't experiencing the same phenomena.

[YardRat]

bills already have psl-ish fees for the club level sections like the jim kelly club etc (orange heated seats with indoor bars). dont know what it is now but by my friend told me it was like 10k a seat when they first came out, but i guess that was a one time charge as long as they kept the seats. not sure thats how they still do it or not, but they have no problem selling those

they could then have psls for the high demand seats like the lower bowl and even the upper deck between the thirties and i doubt theyd have any trouble getting rid of those. then the rest of the seats perhaps could be psl-free

I've got a friend who has had seasons at club level for years, and don't believe he has ever paid a PSL. If he did, it certainly wasn't 10k. I'll ask, though.

[YardRat]

and I am asking based on what is the assertion the PSL cost is the motivator in selling the tickets?

Maybe they are correlating a trend between increased attendance by away fans and increases in PSL costs.

[Meathead]

well theres club levels that dont have psls like the end zones and corners, and then theres club levels that are inside those semi-suite clubs with the orange heated seats. i remember the 10k figure, but maybe that was for two or four seats idk

always thought it was a waste for those people to pay for outside seats then go into the bar and watch it on tv. ive had those seats several times when my crazy ex would get them from her company or bought them outside for less in demand games and they are excellent. the last place i would want to be is inside paying twelve bucks for a rum and coke and watching the game on a flat screen

[trapezeus]

I really don't understand what is being said here. I believe were there no PSL the stadium would still be full for those games with opposing teams fans. That's really the thing that has to be measured here...because if the market was to remain the same the money would just be going into the hands of consumers making a profit off the team instead of the people in business to make a profit from the team.

If you own season tickets for $100 a ticket without PSL and you have a $200ticket plus $500 amortized PSL cost, and you can get $400 for your ticket, wouldn't you sell? Especially games with high demand where it might go over the break even point?

but when its just the cost of ticket, you usually just attend because it's cheap enough and worth it to you. if the PSL is tens of thousands of dollars and you ahve a couple games where you can recoup your costs, you are more likely to do it. and it's happened.
that's the point.

[YardRat]

His are in the Paul McGuire Club. They are great seats, and any time I go with him I'm kind of amazed how many people are inside watching on TV.

[Mr. Pink]

The NFL and owner certainly doesn't care about this.

It generates more revenue.

Hell, even the previous owner of this team didn't care...he sold games to Toronto.

[Typ0]

That's what I'm saying though. The loss associated with attending the game if there is no PSL is still $400 not $100. To think of it differently if you had paid $100 per seat to see the NE game at RWS this weekend and purchased two tickets...and then someone offered you $800 would you take it? How many people would? And what does the existence of a PSL have to do with those numbers?

It has little to do with the numbers. What it's saying is the market bears the cost of the PSL ... and if the PSL was not there then the people who purchased tickets would be profiting more from the team than the team itself.



If you own season tickets for $100 a ticket without PSL and you have a $200ticket plus $500 amortized PSL cost, and you can get $400 for your ticket, wouldn't you sell? Especially games with high demand where it might go over the break even point?

but when its just the cost of ticket, you usually just attend because it's cheap enough and worth it to you. if the PSL is tens of thousands of dollars and you ahve a couple games where you can recoup your costs, you are more likely to do it. and it's happened.
that's the point.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I've got a friend who has had seasons at club level for years, and don't believe he has ever paid a PSL. If he did, it certainly wasn't 10k. I'll ask, though.

PSLs are for new stadiums. If they started charging PSLs on an existing stadium, that would be outrageous.

The PSL itself was an idea by an economist as an alternative to public funding for stadiums. The fact that teams have both demanded public money AND a PSL is just pure greed.

[SpikedLemonade]

PSLs are for new stadiums. If they started charging PSLs on an existing stadium, that would be outrageous.

The PSL itself was an idea by an economist as an alternative to public funding for stadiums. The fact that teams have both demanded public money AND a PSL is just pure greed.

The PSL total revenue goes towards the owners share of the new stadium's funding.

In Minny, the state is paying $500M of the total $1B cost. The NFL is contributing $150M. The remaining $350M is coming from the owner but he is raising $150M of that through PSLs.

I expect the same in Buffalo.

Pegula is rich but he is no fool other that he does not have the relocation leverage because he owns too much in Buffalo.

He likes charity cases.

[YardRat]

Chicago charges PSL's for Soldier Field. Kansas City does also for Arrowhead. They aren't exclusive to new builds.

[SpikedLemonade]

Chicago charges PSL's for Soldier Field. Kansas City does also for Arrowhead. They aren't exclusive to new builds.

They both had significant upgrade projects.

I don't know if they count in this, but I read somewhere that the last 16 new stadiums all had PSLs:

NFL Seat Licenses


Baltimore Ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Ravens) PSL[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_seat_license#cite_note-ravenpsl-1)
Carolina Panthers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolina_Panthers) PSL
Chicago Bears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Bears) PSL
Cincinnati Bengals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Bengals) COA (Charter Ownership Agreements)
Cleveland Browns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Browns) PSL
Dallas Cowboys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Cowboys) SL (Seat Licenses) (Effective at Cowboys Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboys_Stadium) only.)
New York Giants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Giants) PSL (Effective in the New Meadowlands Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Meadowlands_Stadium) only. Buying Giants PSL does NOT give ticket rights for Jets.)
New York Jets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Jets) PSL (Effective in the New Meadowlands Stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Meadowlands_Stadium) only. Policies differ from the Giants. Buying Jets PSL does NOT give ticket rights for Giants.)
Houston Texans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Texans) PSL
Philadelphia Eagles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Eagles) SBL (Stadium Builder Licenses)
Pittsburgh Steelers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Steelers) SL
San Francisco 49ers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_49ers) SBL (Stadium Builder Licenses)
Seattle Seahawks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Seahawks) CSL (Charter Seat Licenses)
St. Louis Rams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Rams) PSL
Tennessee Titans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Titans) PSL

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Chicago charges PSL's for Soldier Field. Kansas City does also for Arrowhead. They aren't exclusive to new builds.

Both have undergone enormous renovations. Soldier field is practically a new stadium on the same footprint.

[YardRat]

They both had significant upgrade projects.


Both have undergone enormous renovations. Soldier field is practically a new stadium on the same footprint.

I realize that, but the comments indicated PSL's were only for new construction, and they aren't.

Even if the Ralph were chosen by Pegula as the 'new' stadium site and it was significantly upgraded vs a new downtown stadium I would expect some form of PSL to be put into play.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I realize that, but the comments indicated PSL's were only for new construction, and they aren't.

Even if the Ralph were chosen by Pegula as the 'new' stadium site and it was significantly upgraded vs a new downtown stadium I would expect some form of PSL to be put into play.

And I'd be for it if it avoided the need for public money.

[SpikedLemonade]

And I'd be for it if it avoided the need for public money.

Those would be very expensive PSLs if they were to replace public money.

I don't see it.

Pegula will lobby to get at least half the new stadium paid with public funds.

Minny seems like the closest example although even Minny is economically better off than Buffalo.

[SpikedLemonade]

It was over a dozen years ago, but this is how Detroit did it and they have no PSLs but plenty of suites and premium seating:

Ford Field opened in 2002 at a cost of $430 million, about 36 percent of which came from direct public financing, according to a report from the National Sports Law Institute at Marquette University.

Construction was financed by $219 million in Wayne County revenue bonds, which continue to be paid off by a 2 percent rental car tax and 1 percent hotel room tax approved by voters for that purpose in November 1996, according to the report. The levies also pay off public debt for neighboring Comerica Park and other construction on the site, and some of the $219 million debt is for the wider project.

Other direct and peripheral Ford Field construction costs were financed by the city, county, state, the quasi-public Downtown Development Authority, the Lions and other corporate contributions.

The Ford Motor Co. is paying $40 million over 20 years for the stadium's naming rights.

The Detroit-Wayne County Stadium Authority, a five-member public board, owns Ford Field and Comerica Park and leases them to the county, which then subleases them to the Lions and Detroit Tigers. The Lions and Tigers have 35-year leases.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20110306/FREE/303069973/lions-big-debt-load-weighs-heavier-in-work-stoppage

[trapezeus]

the point is just that all NFL teams saw gold with PSL's and did them. but there seems to be large markets that have struggled to sell them with a questionable product, and now this selling of tickets to help offset large cash outlays.

i'm not saying that the new stadium will or will not have psls. i'm just saying its not an issue fo buffalo being poor and unable to afford it. it seems like it's a "middle class is shrinking" kind of thing that's driving sales. perhaps that makes the league think differently if the PSL stadiums (specifically the ones with really high ones) find that home games are changing in their make-up.