Cap Question - Mike Williams

[casdhf]

So we traded for this guy and he makes like $7 million a year. Well worth his production.

If we cut him at any point, we will have no dead cap, right?

TB ate that all when they made the move.

[Forward_Lateral]

Let's see how he does with Orton at QB. I expect to see Woods and Goodwin's production go up for sure, Williams likely as well.

[casdhf]

Still. Is the slot guy worth 7 mill?

[EricStratton]

Still. Is the slot guy worth 7 mill?


If he forces the safety to play it strait then he's worth every penny

[Luisito23]

Still. Is the slot guy worth 7 mill?


No!...Definitely not.

[casdhf]

I'm not advocating cutting the guy at all. I'm just asking ... if we do, do we any cap hit? Personally, I think he will restructure at some point.

[better days]

Still. Is the slot guy worth 7 mill?

Williams played on the outside in Tampa & if he needed to do that in Buffalo because of injuries or whatever he is capable of doing so as well as playing the slot.

Mike is worth the money.

[Fletch]

Williams played on the outside in Tampa & if he needed to do that in Buffalo because of injuries or whatever he is capable of doing so as well as playing the slot.

Mike is worth the money.

Who isn't worth the money on this team to you?

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Not sure about his role right now. The Bills went from no outside receivers (read - a bunch of slot receivers) to all outside receivers and almost no slot guy.

Williams, Goodwin should play outside. Woods so far has not shown being a capable slot guy, much, much better outside. Sammy is an all around guy, but based on his size and skillset, I'd not be surprised that his production from the slot will be the best for his career. We may even see some this Sunday now that his ribs injury seems to finally fade.

Right now the slot belongs to Hogan. I saw a little bit of pre-game practice when the Bills were in Pittsburgh pre-season back in Aug. Hogan runs the best routes (crisp, clean) among all receivers, including Watkins; no wonder Stevie called him 7-11. However, I haven't seen him translating all that to actual games. Hines Ward started out in slot and was a master at that despite not having great speed. You need to grasp what the defense is doing quickly and finding that soft under belly of the coverage as well as giving your QB a clear path for the ball.

[better days]

Who isn't worth the money on this team to you?

Urbik, Pears, Chris Williams, I guess that about covers it.

[better days]

Not sure about his role right now. The Bills went from no outside receivers (read - a bunch of slot receivers) to all outside receivers and almost no slot guy.

Williams, Goodwin should play outside. Woods so far has not shown being a capable slot guy, much, much better outside. Sammy is an all around guy, but based on his size and skillset, I'd not be surprised that his production from the slot will be the best for his career. We may even see some this Sunday now that his ribs injury seems to finally fade.

Right now the slot belongs to Hogan. I saw a little bit of pre-game practice when the Bills were in Pittsburgh pre-season back in Aug. Hogan runs the best routes (crisp, clean) among all receivers, including Watkins; no wonder Stevie called him 7-11. However, I haven't seen him translating all that to actual games. Hines Ward started out in slot and was a master at that despite not having great speed. You need to grasp what the defense is doing quickly and finding that soft under belly of the coverage as well as giving your QB a clear path for the ball.

Hogan got the nickname 7-11 while he was in Miami.

He made a couple nice catches against the Lions.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I'm not advocating cutting the guy at all. I'm just asking ... if we do, do we any cap hit? Personally, I think he will restructure at some point.

To my knowledge we wouldn't, but his contracts become guaranteed for the year if he appears in game 1 because he's a vested veteran. He also has some roster bonuses through the later years of his deal.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Not sure about his role right now. The Bills went from no outside receivers (read - a bunch of slot receivers) to all outside receivers and almost no slot guy.

Williams, Goodwin should play outside. Woods so far has not shown being a capable slot guy, much, much better outside. Sammy is an all around guy, but based on his size and skillset, I'd not be surprised that his production from the slot will be the best for his career. We may even see some this Sunday now that his ribs injury seems to finally fade.

Right now the slot belongs to Hogan. I saw a little bit of pre-game practice when the Bills were in Pittsburgh pre-season back in Aug. Hogan runs the best routes (crisp, clean) among all receivers, including Watkins; no wonder Stevie called him 7-11. However, I haven't seen him translating all that to actual games. Hines Ward started out in slot and was a master at that despite not having great speed. You need to grasp what the defense is doing quickly and finding that soft under belly of the coverage as well as giving your QB a clear path for the ball.

Chris Hogan is nothing special. He's fine as a #4/#5 but if he was actually forced into a bigger role it would be a poor move.

[Buffalogic]

^ Agree but he made an important catch during that Lions comeback so that was nice to see.

[better days]

Chris Hogan is nothing special. He's fine as a #4/#5 but if he was actually forced into a bigger role it would be a poor move.

If Hogan was FORCED to a bigger role it would be because of injuries.

I think he would respond well. I think he is good enough to be a 3rd receiver on many teams like the Pats*

[IlluminatusUIUC]

If Hogan was FORCED to a bigger role it would be because of injuries.

Well either injuries, or doing things like cutting Mike Williams and TJ Graham and trading away Steve Johnson. Hogan's fine where he is.


I think he would respond well. I think he is good enough to be a 3rd receiver on many teams like the Pats*

Again, I strongly disagree. This happens a lot when guys near the bottom of the roster look competent against dime backs or 3rd stringers in pre-season. He would not benefit from an increased role. He's been thrown at 19 times in 4 seasons, he is a roster bubble player.

[better days]

Well either injuries, or doing things like cutting Mike Williams and TJ Graham and trading away Steve Johnson. Hogan's fine where he is.



Again, I strongly disagree. This happens a lot when guys near the bottom of the roster look competent against dime backs or 3rd stringers in pre-season. He would not benefit from an increased role. He's been thrown at 19 times in 4 seasons, he is a roster bubble player.

Like I said, he had a couple nice catches against the Lions.......in regular season last week.

With a QB he hadn't played with before.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Like I said, he had a couple nice catches against the Lions.......in regular season last week.

With a QB he hadn't played with before.

2 for 27 is a fine statline for your #4/#5 option, which is what he is. And he's been playing with Orton all month. Who do you think Orton has been throwing to in practice?

[better days]

2 for 27 is a fine statline for your #4/#5 option, which is what he is. And he's been playing with Orton all month. Who do you think Orton has been throwing to in practice?

This was the first GAME they played in.

You know with someone from another team trying to stop them.

And the numbers do not tell the entire story, Hogans second catch helped the Bills WIN that game.

CLUTCH!

[sukie]

Where's Bryce Brown and what did we give up to get him?

[better days]

Where's Bryce Brown and what did we give up to get him?

On the bench.

A conditional 4th rnd pick that could become a 3rd rnd pick.

Probable why Brown is on the bench, so that doesn't happen.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

This was the first GAME they played in.

You know with someone from another team trying to stop them.

And the numbers do not tell the entire story, Hogans second catch helped the Bills WIN that game.

CLUTCH!

It was everybody's first game with Orton, and Hogan's 2 catches put him as the 6th option. Right where he belongs.

And if you want to talk CLUTCH, David Tyree caught one of the most CLUTCH balls in NFL history, got cut two seasons later and was out of football in 3. Because he wasn't good enough to be an every down guy. Like Hogan.

[YardRat]

Hogan is a nice 4/5 option for us, but with his skill set and in an offense similar to NE he could put up bigger numbers.

[SpikedLemonade]

On the bench.

A conditional 4th rnd pick that could become a 3rd rnd pick.

Probable why Brown is on the bench, so that doesn't happen.

So you trade for a player you liked enough to trade a 4th round pick for but then don't use him at all in fear you may have to give up a 3rd round pick instead of a 4th?

Pretty ******ed logic.

[YardRat]

Brown is 'insurance' in case FJax or Spiller get hurt. Money well spent, the front office should be given credit for being that proactive.

[better days]

So you trade for a player you liked enough to trade a 4th round pick for but then don't use him at all in fear you may have to give up a 3rd round pick instead of a 4th?

Pretty ******ed logic.

Not when you have CJ Spiller becoming a FA after this season ends.

Brown is at worst insurance in case either CJ or Fred gets injured this year or CJ is not resigned next year.

[EricStratton]

It was everybody's first game with Orton, and Hogan's 2 catches put him as the 6th option. Right where he belongs.

And if you want to talk CLUTCH, David Tyree caught one of the most CLUTCH balls in NFL history, got cut two seasons later and was out of football in 3. Because he wasn't good enough to be an every down guy. Like Hogan.


Tyree had knee surgery, couldn't stay healthy and as a result was cut.

Find a better example

[better days]

Tyree had knee surgery, couldn't stay healthy and as a result was cut.

Find a better example

I will be surprised if Hogan does not go on to have a better career than Tyree.

His mental toughness reminds me of Fred Jackson.

[The Jokeman]

Where's Bryce Brown and what did we give up to get him?

What we give up for him depends what he does this year. Honestly I think we're not playing him this year as allow us to give up less for him and then come 2015 it will be a Brown/Jackson backfield and maybe we add Keith Marshall to play the Brown role in 2015 and then the (current) Spiller role in 2016.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Tyree had knee surgery, couldn't stay healthy and as a result was cut.

Find a better example

Example of what exactly? Career backups making one good play and then generally being backups? I mean, better days is talking about a 21 yard catch on 1st and long in the second quarter on a drive that led to a field goal in a week 5 game as CLUTCH.

That's the lowest bar I've ever seen.

I will be surprised if Hogan does not go on to have a better career than Tyree.

His mental toughness reminds me of Fred Jackson.

I wouldn't be surprised if he matches Tyree's numbers, that shouldn't be too hard. But Tyree is going down in history. Hogan is not so likely.

[Mr. Pink]

Now we're arguing about if Hogan is good or not good?

He's like the 7th option in the passing game. :rofl: Watkins, Jackson/Spiller, Woods, Williams/Chandler, Hogan/Goodwin.

And he'd put up better numbers in NE? Please. He'd be there 7th option too.

He's another guy that could be interchanged with any other teams 5th WR and it wouldn't make a difference.

[YardRat]

Example of what exactly? Career backups making one good play and then generally being backups? I mean, better days is talking about a 21 yard catch on 1st and long in the second quarter on a drive that led to a field goal in a week 5 game as CLUTCH.

That's the lowest bar I've ever seen.


I wouldn't be surprised if he matches Tyree's numbers, that shouldn't be too hard. But Tyree is going down in history. Hogan is not so likely.

The difference between winning and losing in this league is depth, and different players making plays when they have the opportunity...not 'superstars' playing lights out all season long. There are so many factors that contribute to winning or losing, and a 21 yard gain on first and thirty that eventually led to points certainly can be qualified as 'clutch' for at least one play (or game), even if that one play isn't going to be definitive of an entire career. I don't see anybody anointing Hogan as a future HOFer or the next Wes Welker, but if he can contribute in a few games this season that leads to wins, that's pretty huge for a fifth WR.


Now we're arguing about if Hogan is good or not good?

He's like the 7th option in the passing game. :rofl: Watkins, Jackson/Spiller, Woods, Williams/Chandler, Hogan/Goodwin.

And he'd put up better numbers in NE? Please. He'd be there 7th option too.

He's another guy that could be interchanged with any other teams 5th WR and it wouldn't make a difference.

Of course Hogan would put up better numbers in a more prolific offense with a better QB. Maybe not significant enough to actually label him as a weapon, but still better.

[better days]

Example of what exactly? Career backups making one good play and then generally being backups? I mean, better days is talking about a 21 yard catch on 1st and long in the second quarter on a drive that led to a field goal in a week 5 game as CLUTCH.

That's the lowest bar I've ever seen.


I wouldn't be surprised if he matches Tyree's numbers, that shouldn't be too hard. But Tyree is going down in history. Hogan is not so likely.

Agreed, Tyree will go down in History for that Super Bowl catch.

In the music World, Tyree would be known as a one hit wonder.

I think Hogan will have a long productive career in the NFL, not as a star, but as a good productive player.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The difference between winning and losing in this league is depth, and different players making plays when they have the opportunity...not 'superstars' playing lights out all season long. There are so many factors that contribute to winning or losing, and a 21 yard gain on first and thirty that eventually led to points certainly can be qualified as 'clutch' for at least one play (or game), even if that one play isn't going to be definitive of an entire career. I don't see anybody anointing Hogan as a future HOFer or the next Wes Welker, but if he can contribute in a few games this season that leads to wins, that's pretty huge for a fifth WR.

Any play that moves the ball forward "contributes to winning." Clutch is already a nebulous concept meant to spark barstool debates, but stretching it to include Hogan's catch makes it meaningless. Watkins' ridiculous catch in the 4th that set up the GW field goal (and the kick itself)? Those are what I would call clutch.

[better days]

Any play that moves the ball forward "contributes to winning." Clutch is already a nebulous concept meant to spark barstool debates, but stretching it to include Hogan's catch makes it meaningless. Watkins' ridiculous catch in the 4th that set up the GW field goal (and the kick itself)? Those are what I would call clutch.

It is not true that any play that moves the ball forward contributes to winning.

Yards do not matter, only points matter when it comes to winning. If points are not scored then a play that moves the ball forward does not count for anything.

The Bills won the game in Detroit by 3 points in the final seconds.

The points scored on the drive that Hogan had that second catch were every bit as important as the points after the GREAT catch by Watkins.

It was absolutely a clutch catch by Hogan.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

It is not true that any play that moves the ball forward contributes to winning.

Yards do not matter, only points matter when it comes to winning. If points are not scored then a play that moves the ball forward does not count for anything.

The Bills won the game in Detroit by 3 points in the final seconds.

The points scored on the drive that Hogan had that second catch were every bit as important as the points after the GREAT catch by Watkins.

It was absolutely a clutch catch by Hogan.

Again, so we're diluting it down to 'any play that advances the ball on a scoring drive is clutch' When Fred Jackson ran for one yard on 3rd and 2 and left us with a field goal opportunity that cut the lead to 14-6, that was clutch by your standard.

If that's how broadly you use the term, it's meaningless praise.

[better days]

Again, so we're diluting it down to 'any play that advances the ball on a scoring drive is clutch' When Fred Jackson ran for one yard on 3rd and 2 and left us with a field goal opportunity that cut the lead to 14-6, that was clutch by your standard.

If that's how broadly you use the term, it's meaningless praise.

DON'T put words in my mouth!

The Hogan catch kept that drive alive. Put the Bills in field goal range.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

DON'T put words in my mouth!

The Hogan catch kept that drive alive. Put the Bills in field goal range.

It did neither. It took us from 1st and 30 to 2nd and 9, and moved us to the 50. Jackson was the one who actually converted the first and moved us into FG range on the next play.

[better days]

It did neither. It took us from 1st and 30 to 2nd and 9, and moved us to the 50. Jackson was the one who actually converted the first and moved us into FG range on the next play.

Ok, it did not put the Bills in Field goal range, but it ABSOLUTELY kept that drive alive.