Ralph held this team back WAY more than you can imagine

[JohnnyGold]

Feel free to disregard this... I know stories on the internet that originate from "a friend of a friend" aren't necessarily viewed in the best of light. Some of you may regard this as more gossip than insight, but I thought I would share it with you.

A friend of mine is friends with a guy who coached in Oakland under Tom Cable. He was a positional coach out there, and got to see first hand the inner workings of an NFL club.

For starters: Al Davis was certifiably crazy in his final years. Medically, we would say he had "dementia", but to a man, you would say he was off his *****ing rocker and in no condition to be running a football team. I'll leave the anecdotes about Davis's personal eccentricities out of this (let's just say there were many, and they were all weird), but when it came to football he would:

*watch tapes from the 60s, confuse them with tapes from his current Raiders teams, and demand that personnel decisions be made to accomodate his "vision" of what the franchise was. Releasing players that he had "seen on tape" make mistakes, when in reality he was watching receivers from 40 years ago.

*if coaches disagreed with him, his temper was short, and he would want them out of town asap

*no one in the organization was safe, except for a select group of "yes-men" at the top who fed into these "fantasies" (alternate realities) to protect their job and their salaries.

*maybe the most interesting piece--NFL coaches are like a fraternity, and they all talk. Before and after games, of course, but during the week, all offseason, etc. Oakland was (is?) KNOWN as a place that you absolutely, 100%, do/did not want to go coach for, under any capacity. It was known that it was a place for either unproven coaches, or guys so desperate for work in the league that they would take the job, no questions asked.

"Sounds like Buffalo," is a line that was said to this gentleman, to which he replied "very similar situation there."

That's it. That's all the information I have as it pertains to the Bills, so you're going to have to read into that as much (or as little) as you please.

For what it's worth, though, knowing this guy, I now 100% believe that our 14 years of failures has nothing to do with the players we have put on the field. I believe (not that this is some sort of revelation), that our front office is absolutely, 100% *****ed.

And the most important part, to me: it's not like a consultant will come in and NOT see this. I'm sure any person coming in here knows this already, just from being around the league.

I am willing to predict that after this season:
a) Marrone is fired
b) Whaley is fired, unless he manages to 100% distance himself from this front office
c) there will be a mass firing of top level guys (Brandon) that won't make the news, but will change the "culture" of the Bills forever

Making the playoffs is not rocket science. Teams usually do at least once every few years. The only way you DONT make the playoffs for 14 years is by being a completely rotten organization--which we most certainly are. The only way to fix that is to slash and burn. It WILL be recommended by a consultant, and it WILL happen.

[OpIv37]

Regardless of the validity of this story, a house-cleaning is needed. I would hope Pegula is smart enough to see that without needing a consultant.

[Bill Cody]

lol yeah let's hire a consultant

[Pinkerton Security]

Lets also be clear - we haven't had the talent to win over the last 14 years, (with the exception of a few years here or there), especially at the QB position. Between the ownership, FO, and lack of talent, there's no wonder we have the longest playoff drought right now.

[JohnnyGold]

Lets also be clear - we haven't had the talent to win over the last 14 years, (with the exception of a few years here or there), especially at the QB position. Between the ownership, FO, and lack of talent, there's no wonder we have the longest playoff drought right now.

I do agree with that to some extent, but in general, my "working theory" would be that EVERYONE in this organization has had their hands tied, unless they were someone who Ralph "selected" to be in his inner circle. And their motivation to stay in that "inner circle" was to maintain their job security, which did not necessarily go hand-in-hand with winning a super bowl.

This may have been spiraling out of control for years... there is a reason that our last 2 head coaches, over half a decade of football, have been such lackluster, uninspired hirings.

I want to believe THIS team, as it is currently constructed, can get a wild card, or maybe even win the division. But I also now think, that regardless of outcome, there is going to be a MASSIVE house cleaning.

[JohnnyGold]

I also want to be clear with what, exactly, it is that I'm saying.

This is not an earth shattering thread with some huge revelation that none of us knew. In fact, I would venture a guess that 90% of the members on this board know this to be true without ever having to hear it from an "official source".

Simply put--(rumor has it) that Buffalo has a similar reputation in the league as Oakland: a franchise that (was) run by an overcontroling, unfit owner, that no *credible* football man would want to go work for, which has resulted in a carusol of coaches for the last 15 years. The people that "make" those football decisions with Ralph are all still in place, and ANY outside "consultant" will see that almost immediately. A massive house cleaning is sure to follow.

[trapezeus]

i think a consultant would be a guy who is out of the league but had success and doesn't want a killer hands on day to day gig. They have their preferred people, they know the process of how decisions typically get made at winning institutions and can give guidance on how a GM and coach can co-exist. Also how to have a scouting department know when to go with the obvious concensus choice and when to really make an odd choice in later rounds that helps the team.

i don't think consultant means some random E&Y consultant.

the team needs a top down scrubbing. too many players, coaches, front office people know how to survive, but not excel. you need a leadership group that demands that people excel and put them in positions to do so.

I don't even care if Terry can do it...i just want someone who will TRY to do it. Failing and knowing you will do so like the last 14 years of bills teams sucks. having someone try to put out a winner and possibly fail is much more palatable.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Lets also be clear - we haven't had the talent to win over the last 14 years, (with the exception of a few years here or there), especially at the QB position. Between the ownership, FO, and lack of talent, there's no wonder we have the longest playoff drought right now.

That may also be related to dysfunction in the front office as they select the players and then the coaches to develop those players. For example, instead of looking at our roster and saying "What coach could maximize the talents of those group of men?" they get whatever coach will come, and then there is a talent bloodletting to get guys who "fit the system"

[Typ0]

RW was a lot smarter than Al Davis. He learned to allow others to run the organization. My belief is his directive was to keep the finances lean and mean to prepare for the sale of the club. This did not mean spending nothing on players as there is revenue sharing. It did mean spending less on the coaching staff though.

While, of course, the mantra was always about winning being the priority the constraints were never articulated. Wilson hired Donahoe thinking he was the guy to keep it moving forward but then got burned and gunshy on who to bring in. Wilson was aging and had an heir of senility to him but it really was just a waiting game at OBD for the last ten years which is where we have been stuck.

[Mr. Pink]

I also want to be clear with what, exactly, it is that I'm saying.

This is not an earth shattering thread with some huge revelation that none of us knew. In fact, I would venture a guess that 90% of the members on this board know this to be true without ever having to hear it from an "official source".

Simply put--(rumor has it) that Buffalo has a similar reputation in the league as Oakland: a franchise that (was) run by an overcontroling, unfit owner, that no *credible* football man would want to go work for, which has resulted in a carusol of coaches for the last 15 years. The people that "make" those football decisions with Ralph are all still in place, and ANY outside "consultant" will see that almost immediately. A massive house cleaning is sure to follow.

I think people started to figure this out when Mularkey quit.

[imbondz]

when it came to football he would:

*watch tapes from the 60s, confuse them with tapes from his current Raiders teams, and demand that personnel decisions be made to accomodate his "vision" of what the franchise was. Releasing players that he had "seen on tape" make mistakes, when in reality he was watching receivers from 40 years ago.

LOL. I hope that's true cuz that is freakin funny

[JohnnyGold]

I think people started to figure this out when Mularkey quit.

100% agree. Nothing I'm saying is news, or out of left field.

But to actually HEAR from someone who has (admittedly) a borderline negligible role in the NFL that, yes, the Bills are dysfunctional, and yes, high profile "football men" avoid the organization like the plague... it only serves to confirm what many of us "knew" and most of us suspected.

And to the poster above who said that hiring of bad coaches leads to a blood letting of players, i could not agree more. Just because Ralph (or Ralph's men) wants/wanted/was willing to pay Stevie, Lynch, or any other player I'm not going to take the time to list off, doesn't mean that the second rate coach we had running the operation at the time thought that player could "fit" his system. We thought we had the best running backs in the league, and then you have Lynch in Seattle winning a Super Bowl. Was that really a player we could afford to lose.

Gailey thought so.

Results? Gailey: out of the league. Lynch: super bowl champion.

[Lucidvizion]

Buffalo Courier Express article from 1977. I know it sounds bad to say, but a new owner is the best thing to happen to this team since its inception.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/lucidvizion/upper-left001.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/lucidvizion/media/upper-left001.jpg.html)

[Lucidvizion]

Here are the rest of the scans if anyone is interested:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/lucidvizion/upper-left001.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/lucidvizion/lower-left001.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/lucidvizion/upper-right001.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/lucidvizion/lower-right001.jpg

I actually found a physical copy of this paper a few years ago and had to share.

[Bellowing4DaBills]

At least Al Davis' Raiders won 3 super bowls before he went nuts and consistent winners for about 40 years.

[imbondz]

Leadership always always always starts at the top.

[Fletch]

I am willing to predict that after this season:
a) Marrone is fired
b) Whaley is fired, unless he manages to 100% distance himself from this front office
c) there will be a mass firing of top level guys (Brandon) that won't make the news, but will change the "culture" of the Bills forever

I wouldn't be so sure of that. We haven't heard anything from our new owner about being willing to make the tough decisions. As I said in another thread the other day, seems to me that he'll be happy with one big downtown sports complex regardless of whether or not either team is winning. We'll see whether or not that's the case.

But one thing he shouldn't need is time to assess anything. He's a Buffalo boy and she's a Buffalo girl. They've obviously been paying attention to the Bills over the years or they wouldn't have been interested in buying the team. Everyone knows what's wrong out there and it starts with Whaley, Whaley said so himself. Read the quotes in my sig and watch the video. He's quite clear who's decision it was to go for Manuel and clearly do all the stuff after it to attempt to justify that pick.

It starts there. As I said, upon our 9th loss this season that would be a great time to make a statement and send a message by firing Whaley at that point, within hours of the game.



Making the playoffs is not rocket science. Teams usually do at least once every few years. The only way you DONT make the playoffs for 14 years is by being a completely rotten organization--which we most certainly are. The only way to fix that is to slash and burn. It WILL be recommended by a consultant, and it WILL happen.

It really isn't. Doing well in them takes some things, but you're right, teams almost haphazardly make the playoffs all the time. It's usually a mediocre team that had an easy schedule and played a bunch of teams so badly beaten up that it gave them enough of an advantage.

There's no excuse in the world for not having a winning season in 10 years of playing football as we're on the cusp of now.

I don't think Pegula's going to do what needs to be done though. I think he's more concerned about the "Buffalo" aspect owning the team than he is about actually putting a winning team on the field. We'll know more by January.

[Fletch]

100% agree. Nothing I'm saying is news, or out of left field.

But to actually HEAR from someone who has (admittedly) a borderline negligible role in the NFL that, yes, the Bills are dysfunctional, and yes, high profile "football men" avoid the organization like the plague... it only serves to confirm what many of us "knew" and most of us suspected.

And to the poster above who said that hiring of bad coaches leads to a blood letting of players, i could not agree more. Just because Ralph (or Ralph's men) wants/wanted/was willing to pay Stevie, Lynch, or any other player I'm not going to take the time to list off, doesn't mean that the second rate coach we had running the operation at the time thought that player could "fit" his system. We thought we had the best running backs in the league, and then you have Lynch in Seattle winning a Super Bowl. Was that really a player we could afford to lose.

Gailey thought so.

Results? Gailey: out of the league. Lynch: super bowl champion.

Let's ask the question, if you're a GM or coach looking for work, why would you want to come and play for a team that has a CEO like Brandon as your boss?

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. We haven't heard anything from our new owner about being willing to make the tough decisions. As I said in another thread the other day, seems to me that he'll be happy with one big downtown sports complex regardless of whether or not either team is winning. We'll see whether or not that's the case.

But one thing he shouldn't need is time to assess anything. He's a Buffalo boy and she's a Buffalo girl. They've obviously been paying attention to the Bills over the years or they wouldn't have been interested in buying the team. Everyone knows what's wrong out there and it starts with Whaley, Whaley said so himself. Read the quotes in my sig and watch the video. He's quite clear who's decision it was to go for Manuel and clearly do all the stuff after it to attempt to justify that pick.

It starts there. As I said, upon our 9th loss this season that would be a great time to make a statement and send a message by firing Whaley at that point, within hours of the game.




It really isn't. Doing well in them takes some things, but you're right, teams almost haphazardly make the playoffs all the time. It's usually a mediocre team that had an easy schedule and played a bunch of teams so badly beaten up that it gave them enough of an advantage.

There's no excuse in the world for not having a winning season in 10 years of playing football as we're on the cusp of now.

I don't think Pegula's going to do what needs to be done though. I think he's more concerned about the "Buffalo" aspect owning the team than he is about actually putting a winning team on the field. We'll know more by January.

come on man. Pegula has owned the team for approximately 15 seconds and you are already surmising that he has no desire to win just because he didn't fire everybody 5 weeks into the season. You (and I and everybody else for that matter) have no idea what he is truly 'concerned' about but to assume he doesn't care about winning isn't right or fair.

[Historian]

Simply put--(rumor has it) that Buffalo has a similar reputation in the league as Oakland: a franchise that (was) run by an overcontroling, unfit owner, that no *credible* football man would want to go work for, which has resulted in a carusol of coaches for the last 15 years. The people that "make" those football decisions with Ralph are all still in place, and ANY outside "consultant" will see that almost immediately. A massive house cleaning is sure to follow.

I agree to a small extent.

But my feeling is that Buffalo and Oakland were being run by older gentlemen, based on a 1960's -early 70's business model.

And not just the business, the scouting, the coaching the contract negotiations...all of it.

During the 90's and 2000s the NFL evolved, much like the country.

The owners got younger, the players got more brash (and more talented) and television, which actually helped build the league, now began to hurt it IMO.

Especially with the advent of 24 hour cable and satellite providers, ESPN, etc.

The Wilsons, the Hunts, and the Davises never really really adapted to the way the league was run, under the Bowlens, the Joneses and the Snyders.

Just look at the way Ralph stopped the CBA, when most of the younger owners hadn't even read it.

I'm not saying they were wrong, just a little out of sync.

Let's hope the Pegulas can drag this franchise into the 21st century.

[Historian]

Dooby Brothers....lol

[Fletch]

come on man. Pegula has owned the team for approximately 15 seconds and you are already surmising that he has no desire to win just because he didn't fire everybody 5 weeks into the season. You (and I and everybody else for that matter) have no idea what he is truly 'concerned' about but to assume he doesn't care about winning isn't right or fair.

I haven't heard a single thing from him about doing what it takes to put a winning program on the field. Sure, he's mentioned getting back to the Super Bowl just like the other 31 owners in the league. He's completely stopped short of saying anything about making those tough decisions that I've pointed out. All the talk is about "buffaloone" or whatever that website is and other stuff about building a new stadium.

I'd like to see the issue of a rotten team be openly discussed. I'd like to hear him say that no one's job is safe at this rate. What, he needs another season from this group of fools?

Yes, he hasn't been the owner for very long, but the messages bubbling up appear to be more related to creating some sort of downtown center and promoting the city and region more than anything. I care more about winning and if he doesn't address that first, the next 20 years are going to go downhill even with a new stadium.

We'll see. I'm sure he's concerned about winning, just like Whaley, Levy, Nix, Gailey, Jauron, Williams, Donahoe, and Marrone have been. So what. He also seems to be concerned about not stepping on too many "Buffalo toes" which has me concerned, that's all. He's already said that he thinks that Brandon's done a good job as CEO. Either he's full of **** or lying through his teeth to be nice. But if he really thinks that, wtf.

Brandon became president on January 1st and was instrumental in hiring Marrone along with Whaley. It had already been determined that Nix was on the outs at that time.

Since Brandon became CEO this team has an overall record of 22-42 prior to this season. The Browns and Jags are only 3 games worse during that same span but the Browns have reason to be optimistic this season. The Raiders are 2 games better during that same span.

[notacon]

We don't need a "friend of a friend" on the inside to know that Mr. Wilson held back the team for the last 20 years or so....and before the Kelly years.

I have been a fan since 1962 when I was 7 years old. Remember watching the fist AFL championship in my attic with my dad so we could pick up the broadcast from Erie.

The team steadily went down hill for years and years. The only reason we were able to draft stellar players, like OJ and Bruce Smith, is because we sucked so bad we got the first overall pick, and even the least knowledgable football fan knew that those two picks just had to be made.

OJ was misused the first couple of years he was here. And the only thing that saved the team (an OJ's career) from totally obscurity was Mr. Wilson's eating his pride and re-hiring Lou Saban. We never invested in a top notch QB, or the other players needed to succeed on high level, so we didn't.

The team sucked even worse for years after that. The outcry from the fans was felt in the place most important to Wilson...the ticket office. The draft that brought Bruce Smith was the turning point, as was the rise of Bill Polian. Remember folks, we did not draft Jim Kelly with our first first round pick that year...we had two first round picks and used the first for Tony Hunter...total bust at TE.

THAT was because Wilson would not do what he had to do to obtain and retain a QB...evidence of that is when Kelly went to the USFL. Kelly coming to Buffalo after the USFL folded was almost out of his control, where he just had to come to an agreement with the future HOF QB. The rest is history, as is the famous fall out between Polian and Wilson.

The Bills have sucked since then.

The salary cap has helped make the Bills competitive in the sense that they are not going with only one or two wins a year. But, there is no salary cap on the front office or coaching and THIS is where Wilson ****ed the team up and good.

This story from CBS Sports is welcome news that there might be light at the end of the tunnel

Accorsi, Holmgren, Wold candidates to help Bills ownership transition (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24749471/pegulas-looking-to-bring-on-a-consultant-to-help-with-bills-transition)

The biggest asset Pagula could bring to the Bills is to open up the pocket book and hire the BEST football people he could convince to come to save this franchise. Business people like Pagula usually have the good sense and comfort in their own skin to go after the best people to delegate responsibility to run his organization.

Mr. Wilson's (who I am still grateful for bringing NFL football to Buffalo and keeping it here even despite the temptations to leave) biggest shortfalls were his inability to open up the pocket book for the right GM and coaches, and his comfort level in people that he knew...loyalty if you will.

That has got to change, and I can only hope that Pagula will run the Bills like he does his business interests. With ruthless efficiency.

[The Jokeman]

I've said it numerous times, Wilson ran the Buffalo Bills as a business as well as anybody could. Yet he was a truly horrible football owner as he just could never get the right football guys or when he did he ran them out of town (see Saban, Polian and Butler). Part of me feels that Whaley is starting to change that because I've seen Whaley bring in guys from out of the organization to help with scouting etc. I've also seen a better team on the field this year then in year's past. I have hope we can make the playoffs this year despite losing 2 of the last 3 games and having 3 conference losses. It's an uphill climb but not insurmountable.

[Albany,n.y.]

One of the biggest problems the last decade plus was everyone in the NFL knew that Ralph's family would be selling the team upon his death. With Ralph's advancing age, nobody who was in demand would want to move into the Bills organization and work for Ralph with a distinct possibility that the new owner would want his own people in there. As a result, the organization had to settle for 2nd or 3rd rate management at best. The biggest joke was when Chan Gailey, fresh off his pre-season firing as OC in KC was named HC in Buffalo. When Nix brought in Whaley from Pittsburgh as his heir apparent, Whaley was best known for his X-rated e-mail, not as an up & coming front office star. Nobody who could get another NFL job would have come here under a cloud of uncertainty for the future.

Now the good news is the Pegula family's plan isn't to sell the team if one of them passes. That lifts the cloud that this franchise has operated under for the past 10-20 years as Ralph reached old & then really old age. With an open checkbook, we should see big improvement in the front office-something that was not possible once Ralph hit his 80s.

[Mr. Pink]

Just say no to Holmgren.

Good coach, terrible GM/Personnel guy.