Say what you will about my boy Orton...

[JoeMama]

But he's clutch.

Cool as a cucumber when it counts.

That 4th down conversion to Chandler. Money.

That spectacular game winner to Watkins. More money.

Speaking of Watkins. Looking like he's everything he's advertised to be.

We made it a point to get him the ball and lo and behold, the kid is a playmaker.

Yeah, the game was a dog. Ugly as all hell. But we stole a W when any other Bills team from the last 14 years would have lost it.

[SpikedLemonade]

Do you think our D is good enough to make the play-offs with a QB like Orton?

By the way, Cleveland and a couple of other teams are thinking the same.

[swiper]

Like him. I do.

But today he stood in the pocket too long too many times.

The o-line is bad. Isn't Marrone an o-line guru? Fix it man.

[JoeMama]

Do you think our D is good enough to make the play-offs with a QB like Orton?

By the way, Cleveland and a couple of other teams are thinking the same.

OK so go be a Brows fan like shiva.

All I know is, we have a guy who doesn't mentally collapse over a couple mistakes.

He shakes off bad plays like a winner is supposed to.

[Fixxxer]

Same as last week, I wish he could take better care of the ball. He throws a nice spiral but if we want to go to the playoffs he will need to get better at ball security.

[The Jokeman]

He's doing his best Flutie impression. I hated Flutie but will deal with Orton because it's obvious Manuel wasn't ready but who knows his time on the bench might just what he needs. That said I'd still bring in another guy at QB next year to compete for the long term answer. Connor Cook and Kevin Hogan might be day 2 or 3 guys to consider. Yet I still think primary need is going to be a replacement for Hughes as he's playing great now and am sure a team with throw big time money at him.

[swiper]

Same as last week, I wish he could take better care of the ball. He throws a nice spiral but if we want to go to the playoffs he will need to get better at ball security.

O-line has to give him 2 more seconds, untouched, in the pocket.

[Fixxxer]

O-line has to give him 2 more seconds, untouched, in the pocket.

I agree, but he needs to tuck the ball at times and take the sack.

[PromoTheRobot]

If he had some blocking he'd be frickin' amazing. 72% comp today.

[cookie G]

With the injuries to the RB's and the way Minny was guarding the short stuff but giving up the intermediate and deep routes..

we might not have scored today with EJ in the game, much less won.

[CoolBreeze]

Orton's play has been good, much better than EJ's. Which I am very thankful for. Though In my opinion Watkins, and the other WRs make them both look better then they are.

[pmoon6]

But he's clutch.

Cool as a cucumber when it counts.

That 4th down conversion to Chandler. Money.

That spectacular game winner to Watkins. More money.

Speaking of Watkins. Looking like he's everything he's advertised to be.

We made it a point to get him the ball and lo and behold, the kid is a playmaker.

Yeah, the game was a dog. Ugly as all hell. But we stole a W when any other Bills team from the last 14 years would have lost it."The Kid"?

Isn't he older than you?

[The Doc]

He's doing his best Flutie impression. I hated Flutie but will deal with Orton because it's obvious Manuel wasn't ready but who knows his time on the bench might just what he needs. That said I'd still bring in another guy at QB next year to compete for the long term answer. Connor Cook and Kevin Hogan might be day 2 or 3 guys to consider. Yet I still think primary need is going to be a replacement for Hughes as he's playing great now and am sure a team with throw big time money at him.

Connor Cook will be the 1st or 2nd QB off the board. He's that good. We won't have a shot at him.

[SpikedLemonade]

Connor Cook will be the 1st or 2nd QB off the board. He's that good. We won't have a shot at him.

Perhaps Winston will **** the dean's daughter in the pussy and drop to us in the 2nd round.

[The Jokeman]

Perhaps Winston will **** the dean's daughter in the pussy and drop to us in the 2nd round.

With the NFL new Adrian Peterson rules/conduct policy I don't take a chance on Winston.

[notacon]

Orton sucks. Never should have been in the position of behind at the end of the game.

He's not "clutch"...he sucks. Jesus. We were lucky to win a game that we should have cakewalked.

Orton is like a statue. No mobility. He does not protect the ball. You can count on several boneheaded plays from him game in and game out. The sooner he leaves this team, the better.

[Meathead]

anybody who complains about that final drive is out of their mind. idk who you are, that was terrific. thats what sports is all about right there and orton gets his props for pulling it off

[better days]

Orton holds the ball too damn long. That is his major problem.

During the game, I started counting out loud, 1..2..3..4..5...Orton is down on the ground.

A few times Orton got rid of the ball at 3 especially at the end of the game & made a play, but for the vast majority of the game, he held the ball too long.

[Figster]

I'm very happy with the play of Kyle Orton :band:

[JoeMama]

Orton sucks. Never should have been in the position of behind at the end of the game.

He's not "clutch"...he sucks. Jesus. We were lucky to win a game that we should have cakewalked.

Orton is like a statue. No mobility. He does not protect the ball. You can count on several boneheaded plays from him game in and game out. The sooner he leaves this team, the better.

And right on cue, the sour grapes come out.

You're not a Bills fan. You're an EJ fan. Get lost.

[swiper]

He needs a better line. The Vikings crushed the Bills o-line.

[Figster]

Sammy Watkins doesn't catch 9 receptions for 122 yards and 2 TD's (one the game winner) without good play from the QB position IMO

[better days]

Sammy Watkins doesn't catch 9 receptions for 122 yards and 2 TD's (one the game winner) without good play from the QB position IMO

With GOOD QB play, Sammy would have doubled those numbers.

[pmoon6]

And right on cue, the sour grapes come out.

You're not a Bills fan. You're an EJ fan. Get lost.Agreed Joe. Nutty would rather sacrifice the season trying to develop E.J. with him being the starter.

I give Marrone credit for pulling the plug and letting Manuel take a step back, regroup and try to improve in practice.

[YardRat]

I'll just re-iterate, kind of, what I said in the Watkins thread...Orton wasn't at his best today, he's going to make mistakes every game (turnovers, holding on to the ball, whatever) but he absolutely does keep his composure and some of those throws he made in the final drive don't get any better.

[pmoon6]

"Stats don't mean ****, turnovers don't mean ****. It's who wins the game. We play to win the game".

[Buffalo Thriller]

https://vine.co/v/Obv9tViLvxL

[JoeMama]

"The Kid"?

Isn't he older than you?

Har Har, but apparently everybody is older than me. I got carded at CVS for a 5 Hour Energy at age 31. How that's possible, I do not know.

[swiper]

LOL at Joe Mama

[pmoon6]

Har Har, but apparently everybody is older than me. I got carded at CVS for a 5 Hour Energy at age 31. How that's possible, I do not know.I got carded until I was 45.

I've got that cutest little baby face.

[justasportsfan]

And right on cue, the sour grapes come out.

You're not a Bills fan. You're an EJ fan. Get lost.

Ej has fans?

[WagonCircler]

With every game he proves what most people have been saying. He's Fitzy with a better arm.

He's smart, has a great command of the Offense and the huddle. And he has brass balls.

And that just might be enough. If he had decent Guards, it would definitely be enough.

[ServoBillieves]

https://vine.co/v/Obv9tViLvxL

Since he shaved, he went from Uncle Rico to Stevie Janowski.

http://www.kennypowersfanclub.com/episodes/season1/images/steviebest.jpg

[Forward_Lateral]

With GOOD QB play, Sammy would have doubled those numbers.

This post is a ****ing moron that eats dog****

[Mace]

Ej has fans?

Probably, like me though it was time to yank him. I think we dorked up developing our obviously developmental QB we needed to develop.

[imbondz]

Orton is who he is, a .500 career QB, and he's doing exactly what we brought him in here to do. He's way more fun to watch than EJ and will give us an actual chance to win a few games, maybe more. He's not a franchise QB, but that's not what we brought him in to be. That last drive bumped him up my like for sure. I love that he doesn't crumble after he makes mistakes. I also don't assume he's going to throw an INT like I did with Fitz.

[DraftBoy]

Made some good throws, made some bad throws, but at the end of the day made the plays that allowed us to win the game.

[TacklingDummy]

Pmoon reminds me of that idiot Ice.

[PromoTheRobot]

Orton is who he is, a .500 career QB, and he's doing exactly what we brought him in here to do. He's way more fun to watch than EJ and will give us an actual chance to win a few games, maybe more. He's not a franchise QB, but that's not what we brought him in to be. That last drive bumped him up my like for sure. I love that he doesn't crumble after he makes mistakes. I also don't assume he's going to throw an INT like I did with Fitz.

Okay he does all that, averages close to 300 yds a game, is 2-1 with two game winning drives in the final seconds in three games, and you want what else? Does he need to fart rainbows too to impress you? I guarantee if Orton played for another team you'd be drooling for him and asking why the Bills didn't sign this veteran stud.

[HHURRICANE]

For everyone who asked why not keep Fitzpatrick?

How many games did Fitzpatrick lose on the final drive?

Orton throws the ball and makes mistakes. Hence why he's not elite. But I'll take winning ugly over losing pretty any day.

[X-Era]

He's won two games for us so he gets a pass.

But, he can't keep throwing the ball away or turning it over in the red zone. two turnovers in both of the last two games is not the sort of play that will take us very far.

[Mace]

For everyone who asked why not keep Fitzpatrick?

How many games did Fitzpatrick lose on the final drive?

Orton throws the ball and makes mistakes. Hence why he's not elite. But I'll take winning ugly over losing pretty any day.

Fitz would have been something with an arm.

I loved this game I think, because of the ragged pummeled Orton. He's always been the "get out of the way for our next QB" guy but never so terrible and stuck with bad situations in his career. I've said before Orton could turn out beloved here, I know how the world works it is not likely. But he's wanted here of a wonder, if unsurely. He's not your elite guy, he's Kyle Orton, and he's a QB. We aren't going to the super bowl but this is his perfect place at the perfect time for him to get some love a while and maybe this is where he tips his career record over .500. I can live with it.

[jimmifli]

Har Har, but apparently everybody is older than me. I got carded at CVS for a 5 Hour Energy at age 31. How that's possible, I do not know.
When I was 17 I got carded at a PG-13 movie while on a date.

Since my sides went grey I don't get carded anywhere anymore. I just look like a little kid playing dress up.

[swiper]

He's won two games for us so he gets a pass.

But, he can't keep throwing the ball away or turning it over in the red zone. two turnovers in both of the last two games is not the sort of play that will take us very far.

Again. The critics just have to STFU. He has played only 3 games after how long not playing? This is his pre-season. If he's having the same problems all the whiners are complaining about after four games playing then ok. Certain posters want to give EJ Manuel all the rope in the world and Orton none. ie Better Days as witnessed by the idiotic post he made about Watkins and Orton. Stupid is as stupid does.

[swiper]

31/43 for 283 yards. 2 TDs/1 INT. 72% completion percentage. 95 rating.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8520/kyle-orton

It's unbelievable that after having to suffer through EJ Manuel that anyone would complain about Orton.

[Historian]

Orton kinda reminds me of Dennis Shaw out there.

When he scrambles, he looks like he has a load in his diaper, but he can get the ball there, and fit it into a small space.

Kind of like a Billy Kilmer, or a Bob Griese. Good field general.

I like him.

[better days]

This post is a ****ing moron that eats dog****

BS. Orton was TERRIBLE most of that game.

Held the ball too long & was innaccurate.

Up until the end of the game EJ could have played just as well if not better than Orton had. Chances are the Bills would have had a huge lead in the 4th qtr if EJ had played, not be down by 6.

I will give Orton credit for the game winning drive, but 10 points at HOME against that Vikings defense up to that point is PATHETIC.

[better days]

Orton kinda reminds me of Dennis Shaw out there.

When he scrambles, he looks like he has a load in his diaper, but he can get the ball there, and fit it into a small space.

Kind of like a Billy Kilmer, or a Bob Griese. Good field general.

I like him.

Dennis Shaw was not a good QB so if Orton reminds you of him, that is not a good thing.

[Historian]

Rookie of the year, 1970.

[cookie G]

Just keep feeding him the steaks...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/FqC_ma-ZtSE?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

[Dr. Lecter]

Rookie of the year, 1970.


Didn't Terry Miller win a rookie of the year award too?

[better days]

Rookie of the year, 1970.

The best season of his career. Played 4 years in Buffalo.

For whatever reason, probably Coaching, Shaw never developed.

[better days]

Again. The critics just have to STFU. He has played only 3 games after how long not playing? This is his pre-season. If he's having the same problems all the whiners are complaining about after four games playing then ok. Certain posters want to give EJ Manuel all the rope in the world and Orton none. ie Better Days as witnessed by the idiotic post he made about Watkins and Orton. Stupid is as stupid does.

If it is about WINNING, a last second win in the manor the Bills won that game was 99% luck.

I think EJ could have played at least as well as Orton did that entire game until the final game winning drive.

STUPID is anyone thinking Orton is anything more than a mediocre QB.

10 points at home until the final seconds of the game against the Vikings defense is PATHETIC.

With the talent on the Bills offense, to score less than 20 points a game is PATHETIC.

[Night Train]

The best season of his career. Played 4 years in Buffalo.

For whatever reason, probably Coaching, Shaw never developed.

Torn thumb on throwing hand that ruined him permanently. Never the same. Went to KC and was cut.

[better days]

Torn thumb on throwing hand that ruined him permanently. Never the same. Went to KC and was cut.

I read he went to St Louis for 2 years, played a couple games there.

What year did he hurt his thumb? Because his numbers were worse his 2nd year from his first & again worse his 3rd year from his 2nd year.

But his 4th year for the Bills is when he really crashed & burned.

[WagonCircler]

I think EJ could have played at least as well as Orton did that entire game until the final game winning drive.

You realize that this is not a compliment to EJ, right?

Joe Dufek could have played 99% of that game. Matt Kofler, too.

But we have only had one other QB who could have played the other 1%, and he's in the Hall of Fame.

That last drive was freaking spectacular.

In the past, the Bills would have hung their heads and blamed the refs for that horrible intentional grounding call.

Bot KO wasn't having it.

That guy is hard to find.

Give EJ 100 tries and he doesn't make that last drive happen. Not now, not ever.

[better days]

You realize that this is not a compliment to EJ, right?

Joe Dufek could have played 99% of that game. Matt Kofler, too.

But we have only had one other QB who could have played the other 1%, and he's in the Hall of Fame.

That last drive was freaking spectacular.

In the past, the Bills would have hung their heads and blamed the refs for that horrible intentional grounding call.

Bot KO wasn't having it.

That guy is hard to find.

Give EJ 100 tries and he doesn't make that last drive happen. Not now, not ever.

I am not saying EJ is a better QB than Orton at this point, but he is much younger with the possibility he will get better.

EJ has won games & has come from behind to win games for the Bills.

Orton SUCKED for the vast majority of that game, but I agree the last drive was SPECTACULAR & EXCITING to watch.

[Figster]

Kyle Orton is the 1st QB with a winning record since Bledsoe. The rusty Orton is averaging 300 yards a game, 2-1 as a Bills starter, one coming against the best Defense in the NFL.

After the win I open up the Erie Times this morning and get to read two pages of how bad Kyle Orton is despite the wins.

It was enough to cancel my subscription...

[Dr. Lecter]

You realize that this is not a compliment to EJ, right?

Joe Dufek could have played 99% of that game. Matt Kofler, too.

But we have only had one other QB who could have played the other 1%, and he's in the Hall of Fame.

That last drive was freaking spectacular.

In the past, the Bills would have hung their heads and blamed the refs for that horrible intentional grounding call.

Bot KO wasn't having it.

That guy is hard to find.

Give EJ 100 tries and he doesn't make that last drive happen. Not now, not ever.


It was not a horrible grounding call. Glenn was beat and he threw the ball where there was no receiver. Certainly the receive might have ran the wrong route, but the call was fine.

And while I won't say EJ is better, I think the Carolina Panthers would disagree that EJ would never make that last drive happen.

So would anybody that watched that game

[Figster]

It was not a horrible grounding call. Glenn was beat and he threw the ball where there was no receiver. Certainly the receive might have ran the wrong route, but the call was fine.

And while I won't say EJ is better, I think the Carolina Panthers would disagree that EJ would never make that last drive happen.

So would anybody that watched that game


Drive that had a big penalty If I remember correctly.

The problem with this whole argument is EJ Manuel has regressed. NFL Defenses have figured out ways to rattle and confuse him.

Kyle Orton is an experienced, savvy veteran that you can't rattle IMO...

[Strongman]

I like Orton. We could do a lot worse than him. He's a little better than the average starting NFL quarterback. KO will win a couple more games for us than Fitzpatrick did and quite a few more than EJ would at this point in his development. I also like the fact that EJ is now in a better position where he can learn and develop. I think getting ready for the next opponent while trying to learn the position was detrimental to his development. EJ strikes me as a more cerebral type of QB who can learn from watching instead of the kind who performs better when under pressure.

[Fletch]

Orton kinda reminds me of Dennis Shaw out there.

When he scrambles, he looks like he has a load in his diaper, but he can get the ball there, and fit it into a small space.

Kind of like a Billy Kilmer, or a Bob Griese. Good field general.

I like him.

That's funny.

We've gotta start scoring more points though. I'm trying to figure out why with better QB play we're not scoring more. Fine, Detroit had a good D, but Minnesota's was not good and neither was NE's, both games were home games.

The fact is that the team is presently scoring fewer points than it was with Manuel in there. Orton's clearly better, so why can't the O generate more points?

I ask seriously, I don't see any reasons why that's the case.

[Dr. Lecter]

I'm not arguing that he has not regressed. I'm merely pointing out that he has made that comeback more than never out of 100 times

[Fletch]

If it is about WINNING, a last second win in the manor the Bills won that game was 99% luck.

I think EJ could have played at least as well as Orton did that entire game until the final game winning drive.

STUPID is anyone thinking Orton is anything more than a mediocre QB.

10 points at home until the final seconds of the game against the Vikings defense is PATHETIC.

With the talent on the Bills offense, to score less than 20 points a game is PATHETIC.

Can you possibly betray yourself anymore than you already have over the months?

I agree with you on all of your points except for the first two. That last drive was not all luck. It was a great drive. BUT, we shouldn't have even been in that spot, at home, against that ****ty Vikes team, if we're half as good as everyone's been saying here. The Vikes suck, may be the worst team in the league with Bridgewater starting and Peterson gone.

EJ can't play better than Orton has been, I mean it's almost as if you've not watched either QB play when you make statements like that.

I agree that Orton is mediocre to average on a good day, but EJ's not even mediocre. He sucks.

16 points total to that Vikes team, at home, is pathetic if we really have anything even approaching an elite D like has been crammed down our throats by the know-it-alls here constantly. Only now are those brainiacs backing off.

Also agree that with the talent we have on O, against the Vike, at home, we should have easily been able to put up 20 or more points without having to resort to last second/last play antics.

[Ed]

I don't like all the sacks he's taking since that will just lead to more turnovers, but I would put a lot of that on the O-line. They really need to step up because Orton is just not athletic enough to deal with or escape bad protection.

The turnovers and sacks are frustrating, but I still have to give Orton a ton of credit for playing a lot better than I thought he would. He's currently 3rd in the league in completion pct. and 5th in yards/game. It's only three games, but considering he didn't have any preseason to practice and prepare with the team it's still impressive.

[Fletch]

The turnovers and sacks are frustrating, but I still have to give Orton a ton of credit for playing a lot better than I thought he would. He's currently 3rd in the league in completion pct. and 5th in yards/game. It's only three games, but considering he didn't have any preseason to practice and prepare with the team it's still impressive.

How Orton's playing aside, why are we scoring less with him in there than with EJ in there?

Again, not saying put EJ back in at all, I would prefer it if they released Manuel today, but still, where at the points?

I just looked, over the last three games we're ranked 23rd in scoring.

[Figster]

I don't like all the sacks he's taking since that will just lead to more turnovers, but I would put a lot of that on the O-line. They really need to step up because Orton is just not athletic enough to deal with or escape bad protection.

The turnovers and sacks are frustrating, but I still have to give Orton a ton of credit for playing a lot better than I thought he would. He's currently 3rd in the league in completion pct. and 5th in yards/game. It's only three games, but considering he didn't have any preseason to practice and prepare with the team it's still impressive.

A rusty Kyle Orton I might add,

[justasportsfan]

I don't think he's neither good nor bad. I'm just glad he throws the ball and gives his receivers a chance to make a plays.

[better days]

Can you possibly betray yourself anymore than you already have over the months?

I agree with you on all of your points except for the first two. That last drive was not all luck. It was a great drive. BUT, we shouldn't have even been in that spot, at home, against that ****ty Vikes team, if we're half as good as everyone's been saying here. The Vikes suck, may be the worst team in the league with Bridgewater starting and Peterson gone.

EJ can't play better than Orton has been, I mean it's almost as if you've not watched either QB play when you make statements like that.

I agree that Orton is mediocre to average on a good day, but EJ's not even mediocre. He sucks.

16 points total to that Vikes team, at home, is pathetic if we really have anything even approaching an elite D like has been crammed down our throats by the know-it-alls here constantly. Only now are those brainiacs backing off.

Also agree that with the talent we have on O, against the Vike, at home, we should have easily been able to put up 20 or more points without having to resort to last second/last play antics.

I agree the final drive was great, but you are CRAZY if you don't think LUCK was a BIG part of that drive being successful.

You said yourself that EJ has put up more points than Orton has so I disagree that EJ can not play as well as Orton.

If EJ had played against the Vikings, for all we know the Bills might have been up by 20 points going into the 4th qtr.

I think at this point Orton is better than EJ, but not by a whole lot.

And I don't betray myself, but I do change my mind at times.

It is just stupid to continue to support people or things after it is shown you were wrong for doing so.

And when I am proven wrong, I am man enough to admit it.

[justasportsfan]

You said yourself that EJ has put up more points than Orton has so I disagree that EJ can not play as well as Orton.


meh, EJ would run out of bounds short of the 1st down on many of the throws that Orton made.

[WagonCircler]

It was not a horrible grounding call. Glenn was beat and he threw the ball where there was no receiver. Certainly the receive might have ran the wrong route, but the call was fine.

And while I won't say EJ is better, I think the Carolina Panthers would disagree that EJ would never make that last drive happen.

So would anybody that watched that game

The receiver broke to the right instead of breaking to the left. The play was on in which Orton throws to a spot. He makes that exact throw at that exact second whether he's pressured or not.

The root word of "Intentional Grounding" is INTENT.

It was not his intent to ground the ball to avoid a sack, which is what the penalty is for. It was his intent to throw to a spot, which he did.

[WagonCircler]

I'm not arguing that he has not regressed. I'm merely pointing out that he has made that comeback more than never out of 100 times

Horsecrap. That drive entailed overcoming 4th and 19 and overcoming penalty calls and, most importantly, it involved making precise throws under severe pressure.

The point isn't whether or not he has led a two minute drive. The point is, if you put EJ out there in THAT game under those condition in that situation, Bills lose 100 times out of 100.

[Dr. Lecter]

The receiver broke to the right instead of breaking to the left. The play was on in which Orton throws to a spot. He makes that exact throw at that exact second whether he's pressured or not.

The root word of "Intentional Grounding" is INTENT.

It was not his intent to ground the ball to avoid a sack, which is what the penalty is for. It was his intent to throw to a spot, which he did.

I know it's about intent.

But it is not up to the ref to decide if the receiver ran the wrong route or not.

[better days]

Horsecrap. That drive entailed overcoming 4th and 19 and overcoming penalty calls and, most importantly, it involved making precise throws under severe pressure.

The point isn't whether or not he has led a two minute drive. The point is, if you put EJ out there in THAT game under those condition in that situation, Bills lose 100 times out of 100.

The point is if EJ had been the QB in that game against the Vikings, the Bills might have won in a blow out.

And EJ has won games as a Bill when the Bills were behind late in the game.

[notacon]

And right on cue, the sour grapes come out.

You're not a Bills fan. You're an EJ fan. Get lost.

No sour grapes. Just clear eyed truth.

Orton sucks. EJ sucks. The only hope this team has is that after this year, and we end up with a 5-10 record, Pagula totally clans house. GM, coaches and players. Start from scratch.

Get a real football guy in here, and do whatever it takes to draft a real honest to goodness prospect. And then draft another.

You guys are dreamers.

I'll be reminding you all of this truth when we finish they year with NE kicking our ass with all their starters resting.

[WagonCircler]

The point is if EJ had been the QB in that game against the Vikings, the Bills might have won in a blow out..

Hahahahhahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a good one.

At least you got the "blow" part right.

[better days]

meh, EJ would run out of bounds short of the 1st down on many of the throws that Orton made.

I can't argue against that, but Orton has been sacked MUCH more than EJ has & Orton has thrown INT's including a pick 6 like EJ as well.

Pretty much two peas in a pod IMO, except Orton has more experience.

[better days]

Hahahahhahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a good one.

At least you got the "blow" part right.


Well with EJ at QB, the Bills beat the Bears who were beaten by the Fins yesterday & the Bills with EJ at QB, DOMINATED the Fins.

[justasportsfan]

I can't argue against that, but Orton has been sacked MUCH more than EJ has & Orton has thrown INT's including a pick 6 like EJ as well.

Pretty much two peas in a pod IMO, except Orton has more experience.

to be honest with you, I'm starting to think that the reason why EJ is what he is , is because the coaches are over thinking EJ's development. They turned him into a wuss who won't throw the ball and won't run for a first down.

[jimmifli]

I know it's about intent.

But it is not up to the ref to decide if the receiver ran the wrong route or not.
I don't think Orton was under that much pressure. Both tackles were being beaten to the outside, but Orton had a pocket to step up into to buy time. He chose to throw because he though Chandler was breaking out and would end up in single coverage against a CB playing zone (that could be easily boxed out by the big TE).

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't think Orton was under that much pressure. Both tackles were being beaten to the outside, but Orton had a pocket to step up into to buy time. He chose to throw because he though Chandler was breaking out and would end up in single coverage against a CB playing zone (that could be easily boxed out by the big TE).


I thought that at first too, but on the replay Glenn was beaten badly and he was about to get smoked - but it can be hard to be sure watching a stadium replay.

At very least there were calls I hated more (See Watkins getting pushed all over the place on a sideline pattern)

[better days]

to be honest with you, I'm starting to think that the reason why EJ is what he is , is because the coaches are over thinking EJ's development. They turned him into a wuss who won't throw the ball and won't run for a first down.

EJ pretty much said that after he was benched.

He said if he gets another chance to play, if he is going to go down, he is going down firing his guns.

[notacon]

And right on cue, the sour grapes come out.

You're not a Bills fan. You're an EJ fan. Get lost.

Oh, and why is it that when someone does not agree with your assessment that they are "not a Bills fan"??!?

Take that crap and shove it you know where.

I've been a Bills fan longer than mist of you ass wipes were even born.

I think a real Bills fan, states the truth and take off the rose colored glasses. We've had almost 20 years, and some still haven't learned a thing.

[Ed]

How Orton's playing aside, why are we scoring less with him in there than with EJ in there?

Again, not saying put EJ back in at all, I would prefer it if they released Manuel today, but still, where at the points?

I just looked, over the last three games we're ranked 23rd in scoring.

Yeah scoring is the biggest problem right now and needs to improve or they're not going to win more than they lose. I would say our lack of scoring over the past few weeks has been due to sacks, turnovers, and an ineffective running game.

13 sacks in 3 games is way too many. That's more than 4 a game and they tend to be for big losses with Orton, which are real drive killers.

The turnovers have been bad too. I think we had a good turnover ratio with EJ starting and it hasn't been as good with Orton. That's been a combination of more team fumbles and the D coming up with less take aways, but a part from that brutal pick 6 to JJ Watt, I think EJ's done a better job overall of taking care of the ball. Orton is making more plays, but he's giving the ball away more and taking more sacks, which obviously always makes it harder to score.

Our running game also hasn't done anything over the past few games to help score points. Ineffective in the redzone with the exception of 1 TD against the Pats. Lack of big gains. Lack of first downs. Overall just pretty poor compared to September.

I don't love Orton, but right now he's doing more than EJ could.

[Buffalogic]

Orton is playing well. I'm the best and a true leader. An innovator. A generational talent.

[Figster]

Kyle Orton is the 1st QB the Buffalo Bills have had with a winning record since Bledsoe. The rusty Orton is averaging 300 yards a game, 2-1 as a Bills starter, one coming against the best Defense in the NFL.

After the win I open up the Erie Times this morning and get to read two pages of how bad Kyle Orton is despite the wins.(John Dudely)

It was enough to cancel my subscription...




dog14787 ‏<del class="bbc">@</del>dog14787 (https://twitter.com/dog14787) 4h4 hours ago (https://twitter.com/dog14787/status/524197638741454849)

<del class="bbc">@</del>ETNdudley (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley) After a win and I'm forced to read this garbage? You realize Kyle Orton is the 1st winning QB the Bills have had since Bledsoe?
Expand (https://twitter.com/dog14787/status/524197638741454849)


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/459022512727130112/uEJU77dW_bigger.jpeg John Dudley ‏<del class="bbc">@</del>ETNdudley (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley) 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley/status/524219840647925761)
<del class="bbc">@</del>dog14787 (https://twitter.com/dog14787) That's a pretty broad definition of "winning quarterback."


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1181126467/100_2060_bigger.JPG dog14787 ‏<del class="bbc">@</del>dog14787 (https://twitter.com/dog14787) 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/dog14787/status/524221618479190016)
<del class="bbc">@</del>ETNdudley (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley) A rusty Kyle Orton is currently 3rd in the NFL in completion percentage, 5th in yards/game, 2-1 and its time to trash him eh?


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/459022512727130112/uEJU77dW_bigger.jpeg John Dudley ‏<del class="bbc">@</del>ETNdudley (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley) 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley/status/524222321800671235)
<del class="bbc">@</del>dog14787 (https://twitter.com/dog14787) Check out his career. It's been defined by streaky play interrupted by killer interceptions. He's Rob Johnson with facial hair.


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1181126467/100_2060_bigger.JPG dog14787 ‏<del class="bbc">@</del>dog14787 (https://twitter.com/dog14787) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/dog14787/status/524229616102559744)
<del class="bbc">@</del>ETNdudley (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley) Rob Johnson with Facial hair, how informative, but why would I expect anything different...


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/459022512727130112/uEJU77dW_bigger.jpeg John Dudley ‏<del class="bbc">@</del>ETNdudley (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley) 1h1 hour ago (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley/status/524231486506287106)
<del class="bbc">@</del>dog14787 (https://twitter.com/dog14787) No, I'm being dead serious. Compare their career numbers. Eerily similar.


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1181126467/100_2060_bigger.JPG dog14787 ‏<del class="bbc">@</del>dog14787 (https://twitter.com/dog14787) 19m19 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/dog14787/status/524247245945069568)
<del class="bbc">@</del>ETNdudley (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley) KO has won more games then RJ has started,3 times as many career wins, RJ went 1-7 last season with Bills,comparison is ludicrous

[JoeMama]

Oh, and why is it that when someone does not agree with your assessment that they are "not a Bills fan"??!?

Take that crap and shove it you know where.

I've been a Bills fan longer than mist of you ass wipes were even born.

I think a real Bills fan, states the truth and take off the rose colored glasses. We've had almost 20 years, and some still haven't learned a thing.

Yeah that's great, but you're still not fit to carry my jock strap.

I'm a Bills fan. I don't know what you are. All I can tell is you're an angry old guy who throws temper tantrums anytime the Bills win with a quarterback you don't like.

Your irrational hatred of Kyle Orton is weird as hell, but **** it, your amusements are your own. If hating the guy gets you off, more power to you.

But you're either blind or never watched a football game in your life if you think he "sucks" right now.

He's doing some very good things for this team despite some of his mistakes along the way.

Like I said, he's mentally tougher than most quarterbacks we've had the last dozen years. Orton shakes off bad plays and bounces back. Most of our QBs spiral out of control once they make a mistake. A bad throw becomes a bad game.

I'm happy we have an upgrade at QB. As any sane fan would be. What's your excuse?

[Dr. Lecter]

I love the "I'm older than you so shut up" theory.


Maybe you can tell Joe to get off your GD lawn next.

[Figster]

:monkeyp:John Dudley ‏<s>@</s>ETNdudley (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley) <small class="time"> 58m58 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/ETNdudley/status/524252157114343425) </small> <s>@</s>dog14787 (https://twitter.com/dog14787) Time will tell.

[notacon]

Yeah that's great, but you're still not fit to carry my jock strap.

I'm a Bills fan. I don't know what you are. All I can tell is you're an angry old guy who throws temper tantrums anytime the Bills win with a quarterback you don't like.

Your irrational hatred of Kyle Orton is weird as hell, but **** it, your amusements are your own. If hating the guy gets you off, more power to you.

But you're either blind or never watched a football game in your life if you think he "sucks" right now.

He's doing some very good things for this team despite some of his mistakes along the way.

Like I said, he's mentally tougher than most quarterbacks we've had the last dozen years. Orton shakes off bad plays and bounces back. Most of our QBs spiral out of control once they make a mistake. A bad throw becomes a bad game.

I'm happy we have an upgrade at QB. As any sane fan would be. What's your excuse?

You "don't know" if I'm a Bills fan?!?! Oh Jesus.

I have zero "hatred" for Orton. He is what he is. A career back up that cannot be a starter in the NFL. So...he goes to the Bills and he's a starter.

I want the bills to succeed, and they are not going to if they keep on repeating the treadmill of stupid QB decisions.

Draft an unqualified rookie. **** up his development that ensures that he's going to bust. Bring in a washed up veteran that is a good back up, but never going to be a starter. Rinse. Repeat.

How many ****ing times are you going to accept this crap???

Then, just because you are too blind and stupid to see the pattern and the truth....anyone who brings it to your attention is "not a real Bills fan"

Give it up. When the Bills have a 5-11 or 6-10 record, will you FINALLY admit that the QB path of the Bills is wrong...wrong...wrong?!?!?


I love the "I'm older than you so shut up" theory.


Maybe you can tell Joe to get off your GD lawn next.

No. How about "I have been a TRUE fan of the Bills longer than you have been alive...so SHUT THE **** UP when you want to say that I am "not a fan""

Joe can pimp the Orton, whom anyone else he wishes. I know what I'm talking abut because I've SEEN IT ALL BEFORE.

You want to question my bonafides as a Bills fan...that is OVER THE LINE!!!

[notacon]

Oh...and Orton hasn't done ****. He has saved us from embarrassment by winning games should have been much easier. In Detroit the Lions helped him at every turn. Stafford played a crappy game. Their kicker could not hit the side of a barn. Their supposed top notch defense, sucked.

At the last moment, Orton throws a terribly inaccurate pass and Watkins makes a circus catch.

Then our kicker makes an unGodly long FG.

Against Minny...this game should have been a blow out. It wasn't because Orton throws stupid interceptions...loses the ball like he always does...was sacked umpteen times because he hangs on the the ball way too long and is as immobile as a statue.

The New England defense is not that good...and still made him look ineffective.

He is better than EJ...but, that ain't saying much.

The proof is in the record. Bills have a chance in hell of even going .500. Mark my words. Every game goes by, and Orton will get worse and worse. He comes against a tough defense, and he'll be lost.

Orton sucks. Go ahead and make your lame excuses. He sucks. There is a reason he is a career .500 QB....and the ONLY reason he has that good of a record is because he came into the league with one of the best teams....he held the Bears back.

He sucks. The sooner you guys get this through your thick skulls, the better.

[Fletch]

I love the "I'm older than you so shut up" theory.


Maybe you can tell Joe to get off your GD lawn next.

LOL

Apparently you've missed most of what goes on in this forum from January thru October. It's at least as valid as the nonsense perpetuated by those falling on the homer side here instructing those of us that actually go beyond headlines in attempting to determine things about this team.

It's astonishing how many about-faces many people in this forum have done. The gameday threads say it all. The funny thing is when it's all said and done, the people who were the most off on everything talk about things as if they knew what they were talking about all along. Then they call the others narcissists.

It's rich.

[mysticsoto]

Oh...and Orton hasn't done ****. He has saved us from embarrassment by winning games should have been much easier. In Detroit the Lions helped him at every turn. Stafford played a crappy game. Their kicker could not hit the side of a barn. Their supposed top notch defense, sucked.

At the last moment, Orton throws a terribly inaccurate pass and Watkins makes a circus catch.

Then our kicker makes an unGodly long FG.

Against Minny...this game should have been a blow out. It wasn't because Orton throws stupid interceptions...loses the ball like he always does...was sacked umpteen times because he hangs on the the ball way too long and is as immobile as a statue.

The New England defense is not that good...and still made him look ineffective.

He is better than EJ...but, that ain't saying much.

The proof is in the record. Bills have a chance in hell of even going .500. Mark my words. Every game goes by, and Orton will get worse and worse. He comes against a tough defense, and he'll be lost.

Orton sucks. Go ahead and make your lame excuses. He sucks. There is a reason he is a career .500 QB....and the ONLY reason he has that good of a record is because he came into the league with one of the best teams....he held the Bears back.

He sucks. The sooner you guys get this through your thick skulls, the better.

Nottie, outside of the few ******s that are making Orton sound like another Peyton Manning, I think most people are in agreement with you. BUT, so long as Orton is playing better than EJ (which you admit he is) he needs to be the one playing. We have no other QB so arguing about him being a backup is moot. Right now, in our roster, he's the best QB and therefore he needs to play. And we are supporting him while he is playing.

That's all. I don't think he's a franchise QB, but right now, he's the best we've got. Sad or not, that is the situation and he is making some throws that I personally don't think EJ could make. I have high hopes that EJ will improve with time, but his constant throwing behind WRs happened too often and almost got Marquise Goodwin killed. The last thing I want to see is Watkins being carried out in a stretcher.

Orton is the best QB on our roster right now and I will support him for the year. In the offseason, if the FO can find a better alternative...I'm all for it.

[Fletch]

Nottie, outside of the few ******s that are making Orton sound like another Peyton Manning, I think most people are in agreement with you. BUT, so long as Orton is playing better than EJ (which you admit he is) he needs to be the one playing. We have no other QB so arguing about him being a backup is moot. Right now, in our roster, he's the best QB and therefore he needs to play. And we are supporting him while he is playing.

That's all. I don't think he's a franchise QB, but right now, he's the best we've got. Sad or not, that is the situation and he is making some throws that I personally don't think EJ could make. I have high hopes that EJ will improve with time, but his constant throwing behind WRs happened too often and almost got Marquise Goodwin killed. The last thing I want to see is Watkins being carried out in a stretcher.

Orton is the best QB on our roster right now and I will support him for the year. In the offseason, if the FO can find a better alternative...I'm all for it.

Having said that, and I agree, the net results regarding scoring are not significantly different. That's the problem.

[mysticsoto]

Having said that, and I agree, the net results regarding scoring are not significantly different. That's the problem.

Which is why you need to look at the entire picture. Penalties are up substantially. Turnovers on our behalf have increased dramatically. The Defensive line isn't wreaking havoc on the opponents causing turnovers - which is putting more pressure on our secondary.

Part of the above has probably alot to do with teams seeing what we're doing and adjusting accordingly. I would like better adjustments on our behalf after halftime. But other than that, I would say those are major causes why we're not scoring more. The whole penalty increase can easily kill drives and obviously, a turnover is an instant killer of a drive.

But overall, I feel it's still obvious that Orton is making better throws than EJ. And I'm an EJ fan, and still want him to succeed. But I also believe you have to put the best player in no matter what the position...

[YardRat]

How Orton's playing aside, why are we scoring less with him in there than with EJ in there?

Again, not saying put EJ back in at all, I would prefer it if they released Manuel today, but still, where at the points?

I just looked, over the last three games we're ranked 23rd in scoring.

Williams was playing better than Richardson (marginally, but still better), and every team we face has one more game of film to analyze and plan against. Chicago only had preseason, and Miami only had Chicago. After the first few games, the book was written on how to attack the Bills offense...run or pass, crash the middle of the oline. 9 times out of ten, you'll run head first into FJ, push CJ to the perimeter, or get pressure on the QB.

[JoeMama]

You "don't know" if I'm a Bills fan?!?! Oh Jesus.

I have zero "hatred" for Orton. He is what he is. A career back up that cannot be a starter in the NFL. So...he goes to the Bills and he's a starter.

I want the bills to succeed, and they are not going to if they keep on repeating the treadmill of stupid QB decisions.

Draft an unqualified rookie. **** up his development that ensures that he's going to bust. Bring in a washed up veteran that is a good back up, but never going to be a starter. Rinse. Repeat.

How many ****ing times are you going to accept this crap???

Then, just because you are too blind and stupid to see the pattern and the truth....anyone who brings it to your attention is "not a real Bills fan"

Give it up. When the Bills have a 5-11 or 6-10 record, will you FINALLY admit that the QB path of the Bills is wrong...wrong...wrong?!?!?

Who's saying we should anoint Kyle Orton the starter for life?

He's the best QB on our roster right now, therefore he should be the QB behind center right now.

For better or worse, we don't have a better option right now. So we need to go back to the drawing board after the season ends.

Listening to you blah blah blah about how bad Orton "sucks" when the facts don't align with that notion is boring and tired.

We're all on the same boat that we need a franchise QB. We're on the same boat that the Bills have botched their QB decisions for over a decade. But we can't do anything about it right now. Take a look at your calendar and you'll see why.

The search begins anew in a few months. Until then, enjoy being angry about winning with Orton at the helm. It's apparently all you're good for.

[JoeMama]

890 yards passing, 69.8% completion rate, 5 touchdowns, 3 interceptions, 92.5 QB rating, 2-1 record

Omagawd he's the suckiest suck who ever sucked.

Why don't we just forfeit the season and quit forever???

[Dr. Lecter]

Don't make Joe angry.

You won't like him when he's angry.

[X-Era]

890 yards passing, 69.8% completion rate, 5 touchdowns, 3 interceptions, 92.5 QB rating, 2-1 record

Omagawd he's the suckiest suck who ever sucked.

Why don't we just forfeit the season and quit forever???He's won 2 games for us and made several nice plays. But he's also turned the ball over 4 times in the last 2 games and in costly ways.

I'll take it. But it's not like we have the long term answer at QB; on that we both agree.

[Ed]

He's won 2 games for us and made several nice plays. But he's also turned the ball over 4 times in the last 2 games and in costly ways.

I'll take it. But it's not like we have the long term answer at QB; on that we both agree.

If he wins a playoff game for us this season will you have to change your name to OrtonEra?

[Dr. Lecter]

I don't think anybody has said he is the long term answer or that the Bills have no messed up the QB position for years.

[Historian]

I like him.

I like that "just **** my pants look" when he runs...

[X-Era]

If he wins a playoff game for us this season will you have to change your name to OrtonEra?
I'm at SB appearance at this point.

[notacon]

Nottie, outside of the few ******s that are making Orton sound like another Peyton Manning, I think most people are in agreement with you. BUT, so long as Orton is playing better than EJ (which you admit he is) he needs to be the one playing. We have no other QB so arguing about him being a backup is moot. Right now, in our roster, he's the best QB and therefore he needs to play. And we are supporting him while he is playing.

That's all. I don't think he's a franchise QB, but right now, he's the best we've got. Sad or not, that is the situation and he is making some throws that I personally don't think EJ could make. I have high hopes that EJ will improve with time, but his constant throwing behind WRs happened too often and almost got Marquise Goodwin killed. The last thing I want to see is Watkins being carried out in a stretcher.

Orton is the best QB on our roster right now and I will support him for the year. In the offseason, if the FO can find a better alternative...I'm all for it.

I disagree that "outside of the few ******s that are making Orton sound like another Peyton Manning, I think most people are in agreement with you."....that is why I'm pilloried for telling the truth. I see many, many posts that overstate what he is doing, and what he is.

You can "support" him while he is playing all you want. I do EVERY SINGLE GAME!

But, calling out my loyalty as a Bills fan...and saying that I "am not a fan" is beyond the pale and repugnant.

Orton sucks. I don't care if we "support" him or not. He will not get this, or any other team above .500.

I want MORE from my team after being disappointed for over 50 years. There is a reason we have never won a championship (outside the AFL). Hopefully Pagula does what he has to do and clean house.

[jimmifli]

I disagree that "outside of the few ******s that are making Orton sound like another Peyton Manning, I think most people are in agreement with you."....that is why I'm pilloried for telling the truth. I see many, many posts that overstate what he is doing, and what he is.

You can "support" him while he is playing all you want. I do EVERY SINGLE GAME!

But, calling out my loyalty as a Bills fan...and saying that I "am not a fan" is beyond the pale and repugnant.

Orton sucks. I don't care if we "support" him or not. He will not get this, or any other team above .500.

I want MORE from my team after being disappointed for over 50 years. There is a reason we have never won a championship (outside the AFL). Hopefully Pagula does what he has to do and clean house.


Boss: "Sorry Notacon, I know you give us the best chance to close the sale, but this kid comes to us from Harvard Business School. We don't want to hurt his development by having him watch you close. He needs the experience, that's why we're giving him the opportunity to handle all your big accounts"
Notacon: "But he's not as good as me"
Boss: "yeah, but we think he has more upside than you. You've reached your peak, we think his can be higher... especially if he gets the opportunity"
Notacon: "But I give us the best chance to close the sale"

I'm sure that would go over well at your work place.

Giving guys things they haven't earned hurts the team. If EJ can't beat out Kyle Orton, he doesn't deserve to start. Just like RJ didn't deserve to start over Flutie. And JP didn't deserve to start over Bledsoe. The reason we suck is because the team keeps giving people **** they don't deserve.

Kyle earned his job by being the best QB on our roster.

[swiper]

Dennis Shaw was not a good QB so if Orton reminds you of him, that is not a good thing.

Very true.

[swiper]

I disagree that "outside of the few ******s that are making Orton sound like another Peyton Manning, I think most people are in agreement with you."....that is why I'm pilloried for telling the truth. I see many, many posts that overstate what he is doing...


Oh. You mean winning games? You're a loser.

[Dr. Lecter]

And I see you refusing to give him an ounce of credit and discuss him for what he is - an average NFL QB that can win games with a team that has a damn good defense and a few offensive weapons for him to use.

He will not carry a team to great success. But he can have some success by playing within himself and using the weapons he has. Like a developing star receiver. And relying on the defense to keep the other team from scoring a ton of points.

That's what the Bills have,

Nobody is saying he is great or a star. You are imagining that. Or making it up.

He has not been great - not by a long shot. But he's been OK.

Don't make him sound like Joe Dufek or Vince Ferragamo.

[Buffalogic]

Orton should still be in chicago but former management decided they needed to give up a **** ton for hype machine Jay cutler. Bad move. Orton has always been better than what people want to give him credit for. He's only 31. He could have a little curt warner in him.

[WagonCircler]

Don't make him sound like Joe Dufek or Vince Ferragamo.

Vince Ferragamo led the Rams to a Super Bowl and almost won it.

[Meathead]

yeah but by the time he got here ferragamo was starring in dentucream commercials

[Dr. Lecter]

Vince Ferragamo led the Rams to a Super Bowl and almost won it.

So the Bills erred in not playing him?

[mysticsoto]

I disagree that "outside of the few ******s that are making Orton sound like another Peyton Manning, I think most people are in agreement with you."....that is why I'm pilloried for telling the truth. I see many, many posts that overstate what he is doing, and what he is.

You can "support" him while he is playing all you want. I do EVERY SINGLE GAME!

But, calling out my loyalty as a Bills fan...and saying that I "am not a fan" is beyond the pale and repugnant.

Orton sucks. I don't care if we "support" him or not. He will not get this, or any other team above .500.

I want MORE from my team after being disappointed for over 50 years. There is a reason we have never won a championship (outside the AFL). Hopefully Pagula does what he has to do and clean house.

C'mon Op, it's obvious you hacked into Notacon's account and are posting under his name...cut it out...

[better days]

It was not a horrible grounding call. Glenn was beat and he threw the ball where there was no receiver. Certainly the receive might have ran the wrong route, but the call was fine.

And while I won't say EJ is better, I think the Carolina Panthers would disagree that EJ would never make that last drive happen.

So would anybody that watched that game

I watched the game rewind last night.

It was a late flag on the grounding call & the announcers were surprised it was called.

They said is was a miscommunication.

[better days]

Boss: "Sorry Notacon, I know you give us the best chance to close the sale, but this kid comes to us from Harvard Business School. We don't want to hurt his development by having him watch you close. He needs the experience, that's why we're giving him the opportunity to handle all your big accounts"
Notacon: "But he's not as good as me"
Boss: "yeah, but we think he has more upside than you. You've reached your peak, we think his can be higher... especially if he gets the opportunity"
Notacon: "But I give us the best chance to close the sale"

I'm sure that would go over well at your work place.

Giving guys things they haven't earned hurts the team. If EJ can't beat out Kyle Orton, he doesn't deserve to start. Just like RJ didn't deserve to start over Flutie. And JP didn't deserve to start over Bledsoe. The reason we suck is because the team keeps giving people **** they don't deserve.

Kyle earned his job by being the best QB on our roster.

When he was drafted, the plan was to have EJ sit & learn while Kolb played for a year or two.

Kolb getting injured changed those plans, but now with Orton on board the Bills can let EJ develop as they planned to do from the start.

[notacon]

Boss: "Sorry Notacon, I know you give us the best chance to close the sale, but this kid comes to us from Harvard Business School. We don't want to hurt his development by having him watch you close. He needs the experience, that's why we're giving him the opportunity to handle all your big accounts"
Notacon: "But he's not as good as me"
Boss: "yeah, but we think he has more upside than you. You've reached your peak, we think his can be higher... especially if he gets the opportunity"
Notacon: "But I give us the best chance to close the sale"

I'm sure that would go over well at your work place.

Giving guys things they haven't earned hurts the team. If EJ can't beat out Kyle Orton, he doesn't deserve to start. Just like RJ didn't deserve to start over Flutie. And JP didn't deserve to start over Bledsoe. The reason we suck is because the team keeps giving people **** they don't deserve.

Kyle earned his job by being the best QB on our roster.

:rofl: Nice try. You obviously know nothing about sales. Nothing. And you know nothing about what would "go over" well in my workplace. Nothing.

In the real world, I just hired three young guys to take over large parts of the country that I could not cover anymore. I am not a sales person. I AM the "boss". I work with these guys and nurture them day in and day out. I put them in tough situations so they will learn...and they learn much more quickly by making mistakes and learning from them.

In a mature sales organization, like mine, there is little "closing of the sale". There is taking care of and partnering with our dealers.

Your scenario is more like this:

Owner: "Hey, Notacon, I think your young guys need to be sat down. I hired this older guy with experience"
Notacon: "I know him. He has failed in every company he has worked for"
Owner: "Oh, come on. It's only been five companies he's been with before. He'll do better here"
Notacon: "Uh....sorry. But this guy makes huge mistakes every time he's with a client. He will destroy the partnerships I have been building"
Owner: "It's not that bad. The other companies used him wrong."
Notacon: "No, they didn't. None of the other companies in our market will hire this guy to be the lead salesperson. The ones that have put him in the lead job always have pulled him back because he's just to inconsistent"
Owner: "But, he's better than every single young guy on your team"
Notacon: "Marginally. My young guys don't make the big mistake like this older guy. The young guys don't take chances because that's how I taught them. Blame me. The old guy performs well one day...and crappy the next. Our dealers need consistency and long term attention."
Owner: "I don't care about long term. Just now!"
Notacon: "The old guy will not increase our sales very much. Maybe, not at all. We may even go backwards"
Owner: "I don't care. Use the old guy, he'll do better than he did with any other company"
Notacon: "No, he won't. He's set in his ways. I've already seen his best and it's not close to good enough."
Owner: "I don't care about what he's done before. I want him because I want him"

Sorry, Orton does not give the Bills the best opportunity to win over the long run...meaning this season.

Will you jerks admit you were wrong, wrong, wrong when the Bills end up with a 5-11 or 6-10 record???

[mysticsoto]

:rofl: Nice try. You obviously know nothing about sales. Nothing. And you know nothing about what would "go over" well in my workplace. Nothing.

In the real world, I just hired three young guys to take over large parts of the country that I could not cover anymore. I am not a sales person. I AM the "boss". I work with these guys and nurture them day in and day out. I put them in tough situations so they will learn...and they learn much more quickly by making mistakes and learning from them.

In a mature sales organization, like mine, there is little "closing of the sale". There is taking care of and partnering with our dealers.

Your scenario is more like this:

Owner: "Hey, Notacon, I think your young guys need to be sat down. I hired this older guy with experience"
Notacon: "I know him. He has failed in every company he has worked for"
Owner: "Oh, come on. It's only been five companies he's been with before. He'll do better here"
Notacon: "Uh....sorry. But this guy makes huge mistakes every time he's with a client. He will destroy the partnerships I have been building"
Owner: "It's not that bad. The other companies used him wrong."
Notacon: "No, they didn't. None of the other companies in our market will hire this guy to be the lead salesperson. The ones that have put him in the lead job always have pulled him back because he's just to inconsistent"
Owner: "But, he's better than every single young guy on your team"
Notacon: "Marginally. My young guys don't make the big mistake like this older guy. The young guys don't take chances because that's how I taught them. Blame me. The old guy performs well one day...and crappy the next. Our dealers need consistency and long term attention."
Owner: "I don't care about long term. Just now!"
Notacon: "The old guy will not increase our sales very much. Maybe, not at all. We may even go backwards"
Owner: "I don't care. Use the old guy, he'll do better than he did with any other company"
Notacon: "No, he won't. He's set in his ways. I've already seen his best and it's not close to good enough."
Owner: "I don't care about what he's done before. I want him because I want him"

Sorry, Orton does not give the Bills the best opportunity to win over the long run...meaning this season.

Will you jerks admit you were wrong, wrong, wrong when the Bills end up with a 5-11 or 6-10 record???

I do not believe the Bills would have won the last 2 games under EJ. So, no, I can't agree w/you that "Orton does not give the Bills the best opportunity to win over the long run...meaning this season." I think he most certainly does. And I do not consider 1 season - "the long run"...

[Dr. Lecter]

I like EJ as much as anybody (and probably, next to better days, have been his biggest booster here) and even I know that for the immediate future that Orton is the better option.

[justasportsfan]

we would have beaten the texans if Orton was the qb in my opinion.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I watched the game rewind last night.

It was a late flag on the grounding call & the announcers were surprised it was called.

They said is was a miscommunication.

Grounding flags often come late because they have to include elements that different refs are responsible for watching, so it often requires a conference.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

:rofl: Nice try. You obviously know nothing about sales. Nothing. And you know nothing about what would "go over" well in my workplace. Nothing.

In the real world, I just hired three young guys to take over large parts of the country that I could not cover anymore. I am not a sales person. I AM the "boss". I work with these guys and nurture them day in and day out. I put them in tough situations so they will learn...and they learn much more quickly by making mistakes and learning from them.

In a mature sales organization, like mine, there is little "closing of the sale". There is taking care of and partnering with our dealers.

Your scenario is more like this:

Owner: "Hey, Notacon, I think your young guys need to be sat down. I hired this older guy with experience"
Notacon: "I know him. He has failed in every company he has worked for"
Owner: "Oh, come on. It's only been five companies he's been with before. He'll do better here"
Notacon: "Uh....sorry. But this guy makes huge mistakes every time he's with a client. He will destroy the partnerships I have been building"
Owner: "It's not that bad. The other companies used him wrong."
Notacon: "No, they didn't. None of the other companies in our market will hire this guy to be the lead salesperson. The ones that have put him in the lead job always have pulled him back because he's just to inconsistent"
Owner: "But, he's better than every single young guy on your team"
Notacon: "Marginally. My young guys don't make the big mistake like this older guy. The young guys don't take chances because that's how I taught them. Blame me. The old guy performs well one day...and crappy the next. Our dealers need consistency and long term attention."
Owner: "I don't care about long term. Just now!"
Notacon: "The old guy will not increase our sales very much. Maybe, not at all. We may even go backwards"
Owner: "I don't care. Use the old guy, he'll do better than he did with any other company"
Notacon: "No, he won't. He's set in his ways. I've already seen his best and it's not close to good enough."
Owner: "I don't care about what he's done before. I want him because I want him"

Sorry, Orton does not give the Bills the best opportunity to win over the long run...meaning this season.

Will you jerks admit you were wrong, wrong, wrong when the Bills end up with a 5-11 or 6-10 record???

Wait, so in your fantasy scenario EJ is the consistent one? What?

[justasportsfan]

Notacon: Our dealers need consistency and long term attention."


the young guy isn't giving them that either.

[notacon]

I do not believe the Bills would have won the last 2 games under EJ. So, no, I can't agree w/you that "Orton does not give the Bills the best opportunity to win over the long run...meaning this season." I think he most certainly does. And I do not consider 1 season - "the long run"...

It's irrelevant. And, yes, I do believe that EJ could have won the two games that we did under Orton. It's a hypothetical that is impossible to prove.

I do know this. Orton was lucky against Detroit. They were without their best player, and Stafford's crutch...his game showed that. Their kicker failed time and time again. Our kicker made an unusual long FG after Orton was saved by his inaccurate throw to Watkins that if he did not do a superhuman leap, would assuredly been a game ending INT.

The Vikings suck. I mean really suck. Orton did all he could to give that game away. His immobility caused several sacks...the kind of immunity that EJ does not have.

In any event, what I am saying is that Orton is NOT CAPABLE of leading any team, today, to a better than .500 season as starter. He will not do so this year either. If we are going to have a sub-.500 season anyway, why not do it with EJ so we know that he's a bust. Now, no one has any idea. I know what I get with Orton...and it's just not good enough.

And don't give me that crap that "no one thinks he's the long term solution". We said that after Fitzpatrick right up until they gave him a huge contract. I don't know what to expect from Pagula, but, if recent history is any guide, if the Bills get lucky and end up 8-8, there will be asses here that will want him as starter for next year...and beyond.

If the Bills had pulled the trigger on someone reliable, like Peyton Manning (and yes, they could have gotten him if we had a good owner) or Alex Smith...we would not be having this discussion.

Orton sucks. He will reward your faith in him with a 5-11 or 6-10 record.


Wait, so in your fantasy scenario EJ is the consistent one? What?

No. My "fantasy" scenario to answer an absurd fantasy scenario...Orton is is known inconsistent one...the known entity that has shown all he's got, and no team wants him as their starter. He's just not starter material. I have gone over his shortcomings time and time again here, and other threads.

We have seen this before...so many times that it's sickening. There is no doubt that they played EJ too quickly (I did not think he should have been drafted in the first place). To compound that **** up with another one in Orton does not bring the Bills any closer to the playoffs..at ALL!

The interesting thing in jimmi's awful and inaccurate dialogue (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/226321-Say-what-you-will-about-my-boy-Orton?p=4010350&viewfull=1#post4010350), is that he tired to put ME in the place of Orton. Well...I am Peyton Manning in my profession. Bringing in a Peyton Manning and not replacing a young guy is stupid. Bringing in an experienced guy with a long record of mediocrity and replacing the young guy that the organization is mentoring is stupid.

Interestingly, in the real world, I DID bring in young guys to replace me. And I have found that putting pressure on inexperienced newcomers (with proper mentoring...which is what I do) they respond.

Bringing in an experienced guy with a terrible track record not only does not help my sales force but it wrecks the new guys I am mentoring.

The similarity in the HUGE mistakes the Bills have with this team shows just how much they need to be cleaned out.

Anyone who thinks this is a EJ vs. Orton thing is stupid beyond measure. My expertise in this matter will be borne out at the end of the year with the Bills record. The dopes will be full of excuses. I have called it. I expect a 5-11 or 6-10 record from Orton led Bills. The very best, if the Pats do not need the last game of the year, will be 7-9.

Wasted year, as has become the Bills trademark for the past 20 years.

[Dr. Lecter]

The Bills were not getting Peyton Manning even if Jesus Christ was the owner. Ther were not ready at the time to be a winning team.

[Dr. Lecter]

The interesting thing in jimmi's awful and inaccurate dialogue (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/226321-Say-what-you-will-about-my-boy-Orton?p=4010350&viewfull=1#post4010350), is that he tired to put ME in the place of Orton. Well...I am Peyton Manning in my profession. Bringing in a Peyton Manning and not replacing a young guy is stupid. Bringing in an experienced guy with a long record of mediocrity and replacing the young guy that the organization is mentoring is stupid.





Ummmmmmmm.......

Errrrrrr...........

Well, thank you for gracing us with your presence.

I'm not sure if we have ever been so honored in our lives.

[WagonCircler]

Well...I am Peyton Manning in my profession.

You are to your profession what Peyton Manning is to dancing.

Unless you're a professional jackass.

[notacon]

You are to your profession what Peyton Manning is to dancing.

Unless you're a professional jackass.

:rofl: Just what I expect from ass hats like you.

You have NO IDEA who you are talking to.

Sales managers are measured by how much sales they bring in, which results in commission. My earnings are my credentials, and I bet a dime to a thousand that I paid more in income and property taxes than 98% of the posters here earned in total income.

Anyway. I don't have to prove **** to you. I'm very, very confident in my professional expertise as I laugh at idiots that assume they know what they are talking about when it comes to guessing what place I hold in the real world.

[notacon]

Ummmmmmmm.......

Errrrrrr...........

Well, thank you for gracing us with your presence.

I'm not sure if we have ever been so honored in our lives.

I'm not sure either. I bet not.

[notacon]

The Bills were not getting Peyton Manning even if Jesus Christ was the owner. Ther were not ready at the time to be a winning team.

Pure conjecture. But, I think they could have if they tried. Wilson made that impossible for various reasons. It was a hypothetical situation which so many of the posts on this site are.

[better days]

Grounding flags often come late because they have to include elements that different refs are responsible for watching, so it often requires a conference.

Like I said, the announcers both said it was a miscommunication & they were both surprised it was called.

[Dr. Lecter]

Sales managers are measured by how much sales they bring in, which results in commission. My earnings are my credentials, and I bet a dime to a thousand that I paid more in income and property taxes than 98% of the posters here earned in total income.

Anyway. I don't have to prove **** to you. I'm very, very confident in my professional expertise as I laugh at idiots that assume they know what they are talking about when it comes to guessing what place I hold in the real world.

You know, I like you but everytime you go on one of your rants about how much you make and how it measures your worth you sound like a damned Republican.

And your last sentence is ironic considering you are guessing what place we all hold in the real world.

You have no idea what any of us make or where we are.

[better days]

You know, I like you but everytime you go on one of your rants about how much you make and how it measures your worth you sound like a damned Republican.

And your last sentence is ironic considering you are guessing what place we all hold in the real world.

You have no idea what any of us make or where we are.

Hey, I could use a little help.

Personal checks happily accepted.

[yordad]

Grounding flags often come late because they have to include elements that different refs are responsible for watching, so it often requires a conference.The line judge (or head linesman, depending on the side) needs to confer with the head ref. One rules whether he was in the pocket, the other helps decide if there is an eligible receiver in the area.

[justasportsfan]

You know, I like you but everytime you go on one of your rants about how much you make and how it measures your worth you sound like a damned Republican.



I don't see what the problem is. We have message board reporters with inside sources and mb GM's too.

I can see how we have MB Billionaires spending a lot of time on BZ. BZ is that special.

Who knows. Maybe noty is Donald Trump.

[notacon]

You know, I like you but everytime you go on one of your rants about how much you make and how it measures your worth you sound like a damned Republican.

And your last sentence is ironic considering you are guessing what place we all hold in the real world.

You have no idea what any of us make or where we are.

Only when I am challenged by dopes. I really don't care what everyone else earns. I don't make up **** about posters personal life just in order to insult them, like Wagon did. Sorry, but when I am attacked, I stand up for myself.

I don't respect personal attacks in the place of reasoned argument. I put forth my opinion and I'm attacked as not being a Bills fan. I knock down a silly fantasy argument that brings my personal life into a stupid football discussion...I'm attacked.

If you crticized Joe and Wagon for attacking me, you would have some credibility. You didn't so STFU!

[notacon]

I don't see what the problem is. We have message board reporters with inside sources and mb GM's too.

I can see how we have MB Billionaires spending a lot of time on BZ. BZ is that special.

Who knows. Maybe noty is Donald Trump.

I admit to being an ass hole sometimes...Jesus, we all are. But I'm not THAT BIG an ass hole.

[justasportsfan]

I admit to being an ******* sometimes...Jesus, we all are. But I'm not THAT BIG as *******.

sometimes? :biggrin:

[Dr. Lecter]

Only when I am challenged by dopes. I really don't care what everyone else earns. I don't make up **** about posters personal life just in order to insult them, like Wagon did. Sorry, but when I am attacked, I stand up for myself.

I don't respect personal attacks in the place of reasoned argument. I put forth my opinion and I'm attacked as not being a Bills fan. I knock down a silly fantasy argument that brings my personal life into a stupid football discussion...I'm attacked.

If you crticized Joe and Wagon for attacking me, you would have some credibility. You din't so STFU!

Oh please.

My credibility in no way needs your endorsement.

And it was not about you attacking them - they can more than defend themselves (and it's not like Wagon and I are great internet pals or anything)

My only point is that you acting like your income is some measure of your actual worth is silly and stupid and should be below you.

Like it or not.

In the meantime my "credibility" will survive just fine

[WagonCircler]

I admit to being an ass hole sometimes...Jesus, we all are. But I'm not THAT BIG an ass hole.

Don't underestimate yourself, notacon. You're a tremendous ass hole.

[Dr. Lecter]

And if anybody here is an expert on being one of those - it's Wagon. He is the king

[WagonCircler]

And if anybody here is an expert on being one of those - it's Wagon. He is the king

Awww. That's as close as I'll ever get to a compliment from you. I'm a little verklempt.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I want the bills to succeed, and they are not going to if they keep on repeating the treadmill of stupid QB decisions.


I appreciate what you're saying, but you do reali2e we have to take it with a grain of salt, seeing as you supported the stupidest QB decision in Bills history...

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/tul/graphics/jplosman/tul-losman-main-450-b.jpg

[CommissarSpartacus]

I admit to being an ass hole sometimes...Jesus, we all are.

I talked to Jesus about this and he agreed with me that neither of us are ass holes.

Blame your behavior on someone else...

[notacon]

Oh please.

My credibility in no way needs your endorsement.

And it was not about you attacking them - they can more than defend themselves (and it's not like Wagon and I are great internet pals or anything)

My only point is that you acting like your income is some measure of your actual worth is silly and stupid and should be below you.

Like it or not.

In the meantime my "credibility" will survive just fine

Oh well. I don't need your endorsement either.

Now I know you play favorites. Your credibility is in tatters.

- - - Updated - - -


Don't underestimate yourself, notacon. You're a tremendous ass hole.

Takes one to know one.

- - - Updated - - -


I appreciate what you're saying, but you do reali2e we have to take it with a grain of salt, seeing as you supported the stupidest QB decision in Bills history...

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/tul/graphics/jplosman/tul-losman-main-450-b.jpg

What exactly did I "support"? Exactly.

[notacon]

I talked to Jesus about this and he agreed with me that neither of us are ass holes.

Blame your behavior on someone else...

:rofl: Uhhhh...no. You certainly are a big ass hole. In fact, you are a legendary one. It's a compliment.

[swiper]

I don't like all the sacks he's taking since that will just lead to more turnovers, but I would put a lot of that on the O-line. They really need to step up because Orton is just not athletic enough to deal with or escape bad protection.

Teams have figured out that they can run d-line stunts on the Bills o-line with big time success. The Vikings proved it again. Orton is going to get killed if the o-line can't figure it out.

[swiper]

:rofl: Uhhhh...no. You certainly are a big ass hole. In fact, you are a legendary one. It's a compliment.

Takes one to know one.

[swiper]

:rofl: Just what I expect from ass hats like you.

You have NO IDEA who you are talking to.

Sales managers are measured by how much sales they bring in, which results in commission. My earnings are my credentials, and I bet a dime to a thousand that I paid more in income and property taxes than 98% of the posters here earned in total income.

Anyway. I don't have to prove **** to you. I'm very, very confident in my professional expertise as I laugh at idiots that assume they know what they are talking about when it comes to guessing what place I hold in the real world.

Don't bet on it, you narcissistic little *****. Anytime you want to compare paychecks just call.

[starrymessenger]

Teams have figured out that they can run d-line stunts on the Bills o-line with big time success. The Vikings proved it again. Orton is going to get killed if the o-line can't figure it out.

I think they ran the same one over and over and we still couldn't pick it up.

[Figster]

Kyle Orton was the most pivotal QB week 7

http://regressing.deadspin.com/kyle-orton-was-the-most-pivotal-quarterback-in-week-8-1648425167

[WagonCircler]

So the Bills erred in not playing him?

No, but using him as an example on par with Joe Dufek is a sure sign that you don't know what you're talking about.

[notacon]

Don't bet on it, you narcissistic little *****. Anytime you want to compare paychecks just call.

Call who?

[Woodman]

Orton makes his fair share of mistakes there's no denying that, but he also can make plays from time to time and that's the difference between him and EJ. We gotta dance with what we've got and so far 4 wins isn't so bad, more would be better of course, I just wish we had started him a week earlier.

[Dr. Lecter]

No, but using him as an example on par with Joe Dufek is a sure sign that you don't know what you're talking about.

I know exactly what I'm talking about

His time with the Bills was horrible.

[Dr. Lecter]

Oh well. I don't need your endorsement either.

Now I know you play favorites. Your credibility is in tatters.


Of course you don't.

I'm not the one trying to pass it out.

And, please - give me an example of playing favorites.

Is it how nice I'm to Wagon?

Besides, none of what I said is false.

Using financial status as a measure of worth is highly Republican.

Don't be pissy because you tried something dumb.

I never said a word about the three of you calling each names like 12 year olds, btw.

[WagonCircler]

I know exactly what I'm talking about

His time with the Bills was horrible.

Using him in the same context as Dufek was either stupid, uninformed, or a combination of both (we have a winner).

[Dr. Lecter]

Using him in the same context as Dufek was either stupid, uninformed, or a combination of both (we have a winner).

Jesus - are you dense?

His time in Buffalo was just like Dufek. They were just as efficient.


I was not talking about his entire career. Is it that hard to figure out?

So the only stupid uninformed one here is not me.

[CommissarSpartacus]

:rofl: Uhhhh...no. You certainly are a big ass hole. In fact, you are a legendary one. It's a compliment.

An undeserved compliment. Only ass holes think I'm an ass hole, and who cares what ass holes think.

[lavuuk153]

From the QBR stat...


<tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; ">
29
Kyle Orton (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/8520/kyle-orton), BUF
15.0
-0.5
-8.6
-0.8
5.1
151
7.9
-4.1
40.7


30
Blake Bortles (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/16724/blake-bortles), JAX
5.5
3.5
-5.8
1.1
4.3
226
8.4
-9.6
35.8


RK
PLAYER
PASS EPA (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/cwepaPassesCondensed)
RUN EPA (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/cwepaRuns)
SACK EPA (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/cwepaSackedCondensed)
PEN EPA (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/cwepaPenalties)
TOTAL EPA (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/cwepaTotal)
ACT PLAYS (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/actionPlays)
QB PAR (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/qbpar)
QB PAA (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/qbpaa)
TOTAL QBR (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/order/false)


31
Geno Smith (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15864/geno-smith), NYJ
9.7
1.6
-8.5
0.8
3.5
298
8.0
-15.7
32.6


32
Teddy Bridgewater (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/16728/teddy-bridgewater), MIN
4.3
3.0
-9.0
0.2
-1.5
160
0.4
-12.4
25.6


33
EJ Manuel (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/15803/ej-manuel), BUF
-0.3
-1.4
-2.9
-0.0
-4.6
158
-3.5
-16.1
19.8

</tbody>


Kyle Orton isn't good...but EJ Manuel sucks right now. This team has enough weapons and a weak enough schedule to try and make the playoffs. EJ Manuel shouldn't see the field this year or next year as he needs time to develop. Orton isn't a savior, but he's much much better than Manuel is this year. Since I have no faith that Manuel will ever be better than a league average QB, I'd rather roll the dice with the veteran since the Bills haven't been to the playoffs since I was in 8th grade and I'm less than a year from 30. And no...I wasn't held back multiple times.

[WagonCircler]

Jesus - are you dense?

His time in Buffalo was just like Dufek. They were just as efficient.


I was not talking about his entire career. Is it that hard to figure out?

So the only stupid uninformed one here is not me.

No, you didn't specify, because you were talking out of your ass.

[pmoon6]

Pmoon reminds me of that idiot Ice.What, he recorded that song?

[notacon]

Of course you don't.

I'm not the one trying to pass it out.

And, please - give me an example of playing favorites.

Is it how nice I'm to Wagon?

Besides, none of what I said is false.

Using financial status as a measure of worth is highly Republican.

Don't be pissy because you tried something dumb.

I never said a word about the three of you calling each names like 12 year olds, btw.

No. Using financial status does indeed measure how competent and valuable one is in the sales profession....what Wagon attacked me about.

Take a look at high end sales position job descriptions. Many of them don't want anyone who was a low earner in previous positions. In sales, income is king.

You can accept that, or not. I really don't give a crap.

I get attacked...I defend myself. Too many posters just can't seem to dispute and argue about the post, they have to is stoop to personal attacks. This started because Joe could just not accept my opinion on it's merits, and he choose to attack me in the worst way one can attack a Bills fan.

Sorry if standing up for oneself is considered being "pissy" and (as another whiney poster said) being a "narcissistic *****".

[pmoon6]

Did you start your sales career at "Smilin' Teds" used car lot on Bailey?

[JoeMama]

Kyle Orton continues his workman-like season.

He has a tendency to hold the ball too long at times and make the occasional ugly throw, but on the plus side hangs in there to make big plays.

He's now up to 1128 passing yards, 9 touchdowns, 3 interceptions, sporting a 3-1 record as starter.

Boy does he "suck" or what???

Learn to enjoy the ride, haters.

[justasportsfan]

Too many posters just can't seem to dispute and argue about the post,

There's really nothing to dispute . You're just turning out to be flat out wrong.

[YardRat]

EVERY QB holds on to the ball too long at times, that's why they call them 'coverage sacks'. It was really encouraging that he didn't put the ball on the ground or throw a pick yesterday.