Orton's stats

[CommissarSpartacus]

#7 comp pct
#6 yds/att
#2 longest pass
#9 yds/game
#6 qb rtg

Is Orton a top ten qb? Can he keep it up?

[TacklingDummy]

#7 comp pct
#6 yds/att
#2 longest pass
#9 yds/game
#6 qb rtg

Is Orton a top ten qb? Can he keep it up?

Those #'s would be better if Sammy wasn't showboating.

[casdhf]

Those #'s would be better if Sammy wasn't showboating. actually I dont see how 5 yards and a td change a single ranking there ...

[BillsOverDolphins]

Just out of curiosity, what were EJ's rankings through 4 games?:rofl:

It'll be hard to keep up that pace but I'd settle for Top 15 #'s, given the surrounding talent

[CommissarSpartacus]

actually I dont see how 5 yards and a td change a single ranking there ...

An extra td and 5 more yds might have been enough to push him ahead of Brady. Orton's rtg is 104.0 and Brady's is 104.7

[Cleve]

Those are very good stats, especially considering how mediocre the offensive line is, and the poor protection Orton gets. Watkins who'd been almost invisible in the games where Manuel was QB is now looking like the real deal.

I'm no Marrone fan - but he made a gutsy and smart decision to bench Manuele and play Orton. If that had been Chan Gailey, or Dick Jauron, I'd wager they'd have stuck with Manuel for the entire season.

[elltrain22]

I don't see him ever being a top 10 qb, but can he be a good NFL starter?? The answer is yes. To think that he's done what he's done with a very shaky offensive line is saying a lot.

[Novacane]

#7 comp pct
#6 yds/att
#2 longest pass
#9 yds/game
#6 qb rtg

Is Orton a top ten qb? Can he keep it up?


History says no.

[Fletch]

#7 comp pct
#6 yds/att
#2 longest pass
#9 yds/game
#6 qb rtg

Is Orton a top ten qb? Can he keep it up?

You do realize that three of those measures skyrocketed after the Jets game, right?

His rating went up over 10 points, his two longest passes were in that game, and his YPA in the Jets game was twice what it was over his first three games. It was 14 vs. the Jets, 7.2 prior to that. 8.0 now.

He also has more sacks per game than any other QB or team this season.

Just about everyone seems to suggest that sacks are huge on D, but if that's the case then shouldn't they be equally huge for defenses that play us?

He's on pace to come close to Bledsoe's team record for sacks allowed but it took Bledsoe 16 games, Orton's pace would achieve it in 13. Saving Orton is that he can only play 12 games. At the rate he's going he'll lead the league in sacks at the end of this season though.

Is that relevant?

[RedEyE]

Still early. I'm excited on the quick turnaround but there is a lot of football left and the Bills have some heavy teams on the schedule still. In fact, the analysis won't truly settle in with Orton until close to the end of next season.

[trapezeus]

those metrics the OP cited are going to be better for a guy who's played 4 games than the QB's who've played 8. That being said, he's thrown for a lot of yards and is top 30 QB despite playing half the number of games of the guys ahead of him. If he had the same production in first 4 games (unlikely since he joined the team in the last week so it'd have been hard to run the offense at all in the first week or 2) he'd be in the top6 of QBs.

I think he'll regress some and be closer to his .500 average, 60% completion qb that he's always been. but i hope he isn't. it'd be fun it he can only get better and carry the team for a long run. but it seems like a long shot.

i still think, regardless of his stats, he's an enjoyable guy to root for.

[Mahdi]

You do realize that three of those measures skyrocketed after the Jets game, right?

His rating went up over 10 points, his two longest passes were in that game, and his YPA in the Jets game was twice what it was over his first three games. It was 14 vs. the Jets, 7.2 prior to that. 8.0 now.

He also has more sacks per game than any other QB or team this season.

Just about everyone seems to suggest that sacks are huge on D, but if that's the case then shouldn't they be equally huge for defenses that play us?

He's on pace to come close to Bledsoe's team record for sacks allowed but it took Bledsoe 16 games, Orton's pace would achieve it in 13. Saving Orton is that he can only play 12 games. At the rate he's going he'll lead the league in sacks at the end of this season though.

Is that relevant?

Doesn't that make his stats more impressive? He's under pressure a lot but still playing well.

[justasportsfan]

You do realize that three of those measures skyrocketed after the Jets game, right?

His rating went up over 10 points, his two longest passes were in that game, and his YPA in the Jets game was twice what it was over his first three games. It was 14 vs. the Jets, 7.2 prior to that. 8.0 now.

He also has more sacks per game than any other QB or team this season.

Just about everyone seems to suggest that sacks are huge on D, but if that's the case then shouldn't they be equally huge for defenses that play us?

He's on pace to come close to Bledsoe's team record for sacks allowed but it took Bledsoe 16 games, Orton's pace would achieve it in 13. Saving Orton is that he can only play 12 games. At the rate he's going he'll lead the league in sacks at the end of this season though.

Is that relevant?


the wysian logic. really blows.

[better days]

#7 comp pct
#6 yds/att
#2 longest pass
#9 yds/game
#6 qb rtg

Is Orton a top ten qb? Can he keep it up?

Well, on NFL Network yesterday, it showed Orton in the top 10, I think #7 if I remember right.

Was high on the fantasy list for those into that.

The question is can he keep it up?

With the weapons he has on this team, I think he can but I won't bet the house on it.

[yordad]

You do realize that three of those measures skyrocketed after the Jets game, right?

His rating went up over 10 points, his two longest passes were in that game, and his YPA in the Jets game was twice what it was over his first three games. It was 14 vs. the Jets, 7.2 prior to that. 8.0 now.

He also has more sacks per game than any other QB or team this season.

Just about everyone seems to suggest that sacks are huge on D, but if that's the case then shouldn't they be equally huge for defenses that play us?

He's on pace to come close to Bledsoe's team record for sacks allowed but it took Bledsoe 16 games, Orton's pace would achieve it in 13. Saving Orton is that he can only play 12 games. At the rate he's going he'll lead the league in sacks at the end of this season though.

Is that relevant?It shows our line sucks, not that Orton isn't a top ten QB like you imply based on this. In fact, it is an argument in favor of Orton if anything.

[yordad]

those metrics the OP cited are going to be better for a guy who's played 4 games than the QB's who've played 8. That being said, he's thrown for a lot of yards and is top 30 QB despite playing half the number of games of the guys ahead of him. If he had the same production in first 4 games (unlikely since he joined the team in the last week so it'd have been hard to run the offense at all in the first week or 2) he'd be in the top6 of QBs.

I think he'll regress some and be closer to his .500 average, 60% completion qb that he's always been. but i hope he isn't. it'd be fun it he can only get better and carry the team for a long run. but it seems like a long shot.

i still think, regardless of his stats, he's an enjoyable guy to root for.Why would they be better for a guy who played 4 games as opposed to 8? That is simply not true. It could just as easily be worse.

That said, the Vikings, the Pats and the Lions are all TOP 5 in passing defense. TOP FIVE. The Jets are 14th.

Botttomline... if Orton is top 10 vs good defenses in his first 4 starts in a new system with all new wide receivers and behind the crappiest O-line in the NFL.... I think we got a damn good bargain.

[Fletch]

i still think, regardless of his stats, he's an enjoyable guy to root for.

He is enjoyable to root for.

He's also hardly the weak link on a team with the issues that we do have.

[Meathead]

hes no kelly holcomb or nick rolovich but he'll do

[Fletch]

It shows our line sucks, not that Orton isn't a top ten QB like you imply based on this. In fact, it is an argument in favor of Orton if anything.

Not sure that I was implying anything other than his stats from the Jets game skews everything.

Think about it, in the Detroit game 308 yards passing, 17 offensive points, 9 from FGs. 1 passing TD.

In the New England game 299 passing, 1 passing TD, 22 offensive points.

In the Minnesota game 283 passing, 2 passing TDs, 17 offensive points.

In the Jets game, 238 passing, 4 passing TDs, 43 offensive points.

Let me ask you a question, would you start Orton every week in FFL? I mean if he's a top-10 QB he would and should be starting on most ffl rosters, right?

Otherwise I was just posting some data and asking some questions. Apparently no one seems to think that when we get sacked that it means much, but many of those same people will build a case out of a defense being tops because of sacks. I don't see how that can possibly be. Either sacks matter or they don't. But they would have to have a similar impact both ways.

[trapezeus]

Why would they be better for a guy who played 4 games as opposed to 8? That is simply not true. It could just as easily be worse.

That said, the Vikings, the Pats and the Lions are all TOP 5 in passing defense. TOP FIVE. The Jets are 14th.

Botttomline... if Orton is top 10 vs good defenses in his first 4 starts in a new system with all new wide receivers and behind the crappiest O-line in the NFL.... I think we got a damn good bargain.

it could be worse. my point is that those metrics can be skewed either way with a smaller sample size. i think his total yards being high is impressive. I think his targets of 8-10 receivers a game is impressive. i think 3-1 is impressive.

but i am not sold until i see the sesaon. he could be worse, he could be better. the 10 year record is that he tends to even out. if he breaks out in a full season (or 12 games in his case) and takes us to the playoffs, i'm fully on board for a 3-4 year contract, front loaded to make him a starter. i wouldnt do a longer stretch because i would be afraid he'd regress back to his norms.

[BuffaloRedleg]

He doesn't pass the eye test but those are some great stats. Usually the eye test in the end is correct.

The next 2 games well tell us a lot.

[SpikedLemonade]

Orton gives a chance to win games that EJ could not.

I'm rooting for him.

We have to win 3 of the next 4 games. 3 of those games are at home.

Let's see him lead us to those victories.

[Ed]

Orton has definitely been better than I expected and I'm actually excited to see what he can do the rest of the way. The only thing keeping him from making more plays and being more consistent is better pass protection. Orton looks like he has cement blocks for feet and zero ability to avoid sacks. I'd like to say he could do a better job of getting rid of the ball, but that would require actually getting out of the pocket. His mobility will always be a limitation, so the O-line really needs to find a way to step up. Right now, the O-line is really the only major concern I have about this team.

[TacklingDummy]

It shows our line sucks, not that Orton isn't a top ten QB like you imply based on this. In fact, it is an argument in favor of Orton if anything.
Just goes to show you, even with a line that "sucks", teams can win if the QB produces.

[CommissarSpartacus]

hes no kelly holcomb or nick rolovich but he'll do

Actually, what's gone on is VERY similar to 2005.

Remember, Losman, a secod year first round pick, was anointed the starter that year and Holcomb was signed to play backup.

Losman won his first game, then stunk for 3 games in a row. Holcomb went in and the team immediately improved.

The difference between 2005 and now is that EJ doesn't have REMOTELY the same number of rabid fans as Losman had. Why that is is a matter of opinion.

Maybe it's because the Losmaniacs are 9 years older and so at least SOME are wiser.

[cookie G]

Orton gives a chance to win games that EJ could not.

I'm rooting for him.

We have to win 3 of the next 4 games. 3 of those games are at home.

Let's see him lead us to those victories.

With the running game the way it is, and Manuel's inability to hit a moving WR, I cringe to think where this offense would be had he not been named the starter.

[better days]

Actually, what's gone on is VERY similar to 2005.

Remember, Losman, a secod year first round pick, was anointed the starter that year and Holcomb was signed to play backup.

Losman won his first game, then stunk for 3 games in a row. Holcomb went in and the team immediately improved.

The difference between 2005 and now is that EJ doesn't have REMOTELY the same number of rabid fans as Losman had. Why that is is a matter of opinion.

Maybe it's because the Losmaniacs are 9 years older and so at least SOME are wiser.

Well, Orton is a much better QB than Holcomb as well.

I don't think Holcomb was any better than Losman at all, just different.

[Fletch]

Orton has definitely been better than I expected and I'm actually excited to see what he can do the rest of the way. The only thing keeping him from making more plays and being more consistent is better pass protection. Orton looks like he has cement blocks for feet and zero ability to avoid sacks. I'd like to say he could do a better job of getting rid of the ball, but that would require actually getting out of the pocket. His mobility will always be a limitation, so the O-line really needs to find a way to step up. Right now, the O-line is really the only major concern I have about this team.

I lean toward it being a combination of things. This OL should be better than it was last season and in past seasons. Should be.

Orton's taking sacks at nearly twice the rate at which he took them as a starter in either Chicago or Denver. His O-lines there didn't seem to be better than here, if anything I'd say worse. It's not like he had a bunch of pro-bowlers protecting him except for Kreutz in Chicago.

I'm thinking it comes down to play-calling impacting the line's requirements and Orton being older and not having played in several years.

It will be interesting to keep an eye on during the second half of the season.

[Fletch]

He doesn't pass the eye test but those are some great stats. Usually the eye test in the end is correct.

The next 2 games well tell us a lot.

Well, to be fair, his stats in the first three games were completely the opposite of the way they were with the Jets.

It was kind of like Spiller in 2012 where he started with 29 carries for 292 rushing yards and 3 rushing TDs. He really didn't have another game like either of those two first games and his next 100-yard game wasn't until 10 games later or something, but it set the tone for expectations that he couldn't live up to. After those two games Spiller was averaging over 10 yards per carry. The rest of the season he averaged just over half of that.

I view the Jets game like that. If people are really expecting top-10 play from Orton I think that they'll be disappointed. Of the stats used to start this thread, other than the longest pass stuff, the only time that he's finished in the top-10 of any of the other categories in his career was in 2010 when he finished 4th in yards/game. Fitzpatrick had more TDs on over 600 fewer yards in the same number of games that season.

The dust is going to settle from that Jets game which was one of the strangest we've played in years. When it does Orton will more than likely revert to the QB he was in the first three games he played here. It's wise to expect more production along those lines.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Well, Orton is a much better QB than Holcomb as well.

I don't think Holcomb was any better than Losman at all, just different.

You were a Losman fan, right?

[X-Era]

There is no argument against winning... and we're winning. If we can be a playoff team with Orton I'll be happy.

[jimmifli]

There is no argument against winning...
The last time we made the playoffs half the fanbase did just that.

[CommissarSpartacus]

The last time we made the playoffs half the fanbase did just that.

Did you see the Flutie doc on NFL network where Dougie pinned that on Ralph?

It was also Ralph that insisted Mularky had to fire Tom Clements because he objected to Ralph's order to make Losman the starter in 2005.

Ralph may have done WNY a favor by keeping the team in Buffalo but he did the team no favors with the way he butted in on football decisions because he had a man crush on certainj players.

[Typ0]

We have a very talented offense at the skill positions and with that I can see Orton sticking in the top 10. I do question the line though as everyone else does. This plays right into his weakness. He needs to protect the football for us to continue winning.

[bleve]

I don't need no stinkin' stats.

Football is fun to watch again.

[jimmifli]

Did you see the Flutie doc on NFL network where Dougie pinned that on Ralph?

It was also Ralph that insisted Mularky had to fire Tom Clements because he objected to Ralph's order to make Losman the starter in 2005.

Ralph may have done WNY a favor by keeping the team in Buffalo but he did the team no favors with the way he butted in on football decisions because he had a man crush on certainj players.

No. I can't watch it.

I met my wife that year. We've been married for a decade, we have a 6 year old at home. I grew up, built a business, sold it, semi-retired, went back to school, semi-retired again, bought a house, sold a house, built a new house, moved to another country, moved back to Canada, started another business, sold it, got a new job...

During that lifetime of change the Bills have been consistently horrible. I feel like they've given me the sports fans' equivalent of PTSD. Frankly, reliving the mistake that ruined the franchise is a beating I'm not willing to take.

[YardRat]

I believe I ran across an article this morning that said Orton had the highest fourth quarter passer rating in the league. I'll see if I can find it again.

[YardRat]

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/14-fast-facts-after-the-Bills-Jets-game/9bcd77bd-a357-497b-b3c6-dff818e1aa61

11.Kyle Ortonhttp://www.buffalobills.com/assets/nflimg/icon-article-link.gif (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/roster/kyle-orton/04d62366-bf08-47ed-baf2-4a9be912be1e/) became the first NFL quarterback to throw four touchdown passes with 10 or less completions (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/14-fast-facts-after-the-Bills-Jets-game/9bcd77bd-a357-497b-b3c6-dff818e1aa61#) since Bubby Brister with Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland on 12/23/90. ... Orton’s four touchdown passes tied a career-high.
12. Orton ranks sixth in the NFL with an 8.0 average yards per pass attempt.
13. Orton leads the NFL in fourth quarter passer rating at 132.5.

[Night Train]

3-1 is the only stat I need to know.

[Mace]

Actually, what's gone on is VERY similar to 2005.

Remember, Losman, a secod year first round pick, was anointed the starter that year and Holcomb was signed to play backup.

Losman won his first game, then stunk for 3 games in a row. Holcomb went in and the team immediately improved.

The difference between 2005 and now is that EJ doesn't have REMOTELY the same number of rabid fans as Losman had. Why that is is a matter of opinion.

Maybe it's because the Losmaniacs are 9 years older and so at least SOME are wiser.

I have to say the same thing I said last time you brought this up, Holcomb had a rag arm, way less starting experience (spent 3 years on the pines without taking a snap even), etc etc. He wasn't comparable to Orton. Doesn't have anything to do with fanbase, it's statistical. I don't think Manuel and Losman had similar situations either from what I remember (neither pro or con but diff situations).

That said, I'm enjoying Orton while I can and hoping it lasts. I don't think he was ever so bad as compared to our scale of bad through his career and I think, from watching him, became better through it, though not spectacular.

I don't think we've seen what his ceiling here could be with better protection, but not how bad it can get either if he keeps taking vicious beatings week to week.

I think he can squeak into top 10, likely as mentioned top 15 (closer to 10) which will be splendid here. I want to believe he can be the perfect QB in the right place at the right time, feels like it to me (which is intangible and iffy anyway with my track record).

Also think, if Manuel really is going to learn anything, Orton is the right guy to learn it from outside of Fitzpatrick (great mind, terrible arm).

I don't feel good about expecting anything to turn out too well anymore, but Orton is head and shoulders above what we've come to be used to past decade in any case.

[Mace]

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/14-fast-facts-after-the-Bills-Jets-game/9bcd77bd-a357-497b-b3c6-dff818e1aa61

11.Kyle Ortonhttp://www.buffalobills.com/assets/nflimg/icon-article-link.gif (http://www.buffalobills.com/team/roster/kyle-orton/04d62366-bf08-47ed-baf2-4a9be912be1e/) became the first NFL quarterback to throw four touchdown passes with 10 or less completions (http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/14-fast-facts-after-the-Bills-Jets-game/9bcd77bd-a357-497b-b3c6-dff818e1aa61#) since Bubby Brister with Pittsburgh vs. Cleveland on 12/23/90. ... Orton’s four touchdown passes tied a career-high.
12. Orton ranks sixth in the NFL with an 8.0 average yards per pass attempt.
13. Orton leads the NFL in fourth quarter passer rating at 132.5.

That one is just always ruined by Bubby Brister being a part of it.

[Frenchman]

Yeah but he is at least winning games for the team!

[better days]

You were a Losman fan, right?

I was. But that does not change the fact Holcomb was no better than JP.

I like EJ as well & hope he can develop, but I want Orton starting NOW.

[feldspar]

Actually, what's gone on is VERY similar to 2005.

Remember, Losman, a secod year first round pick, was anointed the starter that year and Holcomb was signed to play backup.

Losman won his first game, then stunk for 3 games in a row. Holcomb went in and the team immediately improved.

The difference between 2005 and now is that EJ doesn't have REMOTELY the same number of rabid fans as Losman had. Why that is is a matter of opinion.

Maybe it's because the Losmaniacs are 9 years older and so at least SOME are wiser.

For Christ's sake.

Give it up already.

This was almost a decade ago.

[swiper]

#7 comp pct
#6 yds/att
#2 longest pass
#9 yds/game
#6 qb rtg

Is Orton a top ten qb? Can he keep it up?

He was a top ten QB the last time he played regularly in 2010. It's already been documented here.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I was. But that does not change the fact Holcomb was no better than JP.

I like EJ as well & hope he can develop, but I want Orton starting NOW.

Of course you were a Losman fan.

Thank you for ruining the last decade.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I have to say the same thing I said last time you brought this up, Holcomb had a rag arm, way less starting experience (spent 3 years on the pines without taking a snap even), etc etc. He wasn't comparable to Orton. Doesn't have anything to do with fanbase, it's statistical. I don't think Manuel and Losman had similar situations either from what I remember (neither pro or con but diff situations).


And I'll say the same thing I said last time. You're wrong about Holcomb like you were wrong about Losman and wrong about Stevie Johnson.

You're like a lot of other semi-smart Bills fans, lucid most of the time but with a weird propensity to fall in love with players that don't deserve it to the detriment of tbhe team.

[CommissarSpartacus]

For Christ's sake.

Give it up already.

This was almost a decade ago.

You know what they say about history - those that ignore it are destined to relive it.

[feldspar]

You know what they say about history - those that ignore it are destined to relive it.

What's the difference? You seem to relive this history constantly anyway.

If somebody were to have to learn something about not repeating history, it's the idiots that decided to release Bledsoe in favor of Losman. It was not the fans' decision. I don't know who you talk to, but just about everyone I knew didn't like this move one bit and thought it was absolutely horrible, myself included. But fans have absolutely zero control over these things.

Losman is irrelevant in present day reality. So is Holcomb. So is Bledsoe. The people responsible for that fiasco are not relevant to the Buffalo Bills today. It IS history.

Get over it.

[better days]

Of course you were a Losman fan.

Thank you for ruining the last decade.

LMAO at you Trent fan.

Trentative & his fans ruined the last decade.

[Dr. Who]

Unless one believes in something like Nietzsche's idea of Eternal Return, history does not repeat itself.
Or, in philosophical terms, it is a non-identical repetition. This means that nuances and unique contexts make the lessons of history only semi-useful for judging a contemporary situation.
In terms of this argument, it really is hardly relevant when one is dealing with a different front office, different coaching staff, and different players; even the game is somewhat different due to rule changes.

[feldspar]

Unless one believes in something like Nietzsche's idea of Eternal Return, history does not repeat itself.
Or, in philosophical terms, it is a non-identical repetition. This means that nuances and unique contexts make the lessons of history only semi-useful for judging a contemporary situation.
In terms of this argument, it really is hardly relevant when one is dealing with a different front office, different coaching staff, and different players; even the game is somewhat different due to rule changes.

What is NOT different is the fans' ability (or lack thereof) to choose who their quarterback is going to be.

[CommissarSpartacus]

If somebody were to have to learn something about not repeating history, it's the idiots that decided to release Bledsoe in favor of Losman. It was not the fans' decision. I don't know who you talk to, but just about everyone I knew didn't like this move one bit and thought it was absolutely horrible, myself included.


Who I talked to? About this incident, it was good old Coach Sal Cappaccio himself, who was on the sideline with the Steelers during the final game of the 2004 season.

Among other things Sal mentioned was he was talking to Ben R. when Losman came out on to the field. Sal said ben Laughed and said "JP Losman. What a dick!" LOL! When Ben the rapist calls you a dick, you know you have to be pretty good at it.

Sal also told us about being invited back to Mularkey's house after the game, and over beers have MM tell him that Bledsoe was gone and that Losman was going to be the starter in 2005. This was just a couple of hours after the game.

So, the obvious implication, since Mularkey said it was a done deal that Ralph and TD, and especially Ralph, were behind the decision and presented it to the coaches as a fait accompli.

And yes, even though they didn't say so until February, they DID release Bledsoe and made Losman the starter after having only run something like 8 plays the year before after recovering from his teammates breaking his leg on purpose.

Mularkey, being a weakling, went along with it, but Clements fought for the team and Holcomb, and Ralph never forgave him after Holcomb showed up Losman so badly.

What can we learn from that season?

That you shouldn't flush the team, the fans and the organi2ation down the toilet because guys like you and Ralph have a hard on for the cute new qb.

It seems we've learned the lesson. Maybe someone WAS paying attention.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Unless one believes in something like Nietzsche's idea of Eternal Return, history does not repeat itself.
Or, in philosophical terms, it is a non-identical repetition. This means that nuances and unique contexts make the lessons of history only semi-useful for judging a contemporary situation.
In terms of this argument, it really is hardly relevant when one is dealing with a different front office, different coaching staff, and different players; even the game is somewhat different due to rule changes.

Still a right-winger I see.

personally, I prefer Machiavelli's take - "Anyone who studies present and ancient affairs will easily see how in all cities and all peoples there still exist, and have always existed, the same desires and passions. Thus, it is an easy matter for him who carefully examines past events to foresee future events in a republic and to apply the remedies employed by the ancients, or, if old remedies cannot be found, to devise new ones based upon the similarity of the events. But since these matters are neglected or not understood by those who read, or, if understood, remain unknown to those who govern, the result is that the same problems always exist in every era."


Administrations and their underlings come and go, but human nature always remains the same.

[CommissarSpartacus]

LMAO at you Trent fan.

Trentative & his fans ruined the last decade.

Sorry, wasn't a Trent fan either, or a Fit2 fan either.

But Losmaniacs were the absolute WORST.

The worst of the worst.

[feldspar]

What can we learn from that season?

That you shouldn't flush the team, the fans and the organi2ation down the toilet because guys like you and Ralph have a hard on for the cute new qb.

It seems we've learned the lesson. Maybe someone WAS paying attention.

What do you mean, "guys like ME?" I had a hardon for a cute new QB? How do you know this? Check your math.

Your obsession with Losman is epic. Even worse, is your obsession to harass ALL fans about it. Would it interest you that I never thought Losman was a good player? Probably not; in fact, you'd probably think that I was lying...And herein lies your strange and creepy psychosis. I already explained how I felt about dumping Bledsoe for Losman. You're still trying to harass the real Bills fans about it a decade later. YOU are the true Losmaniac, if you see what I did there. Ten years later, you seem unable to talk about much else Bills-related. That's pretty ****ed-up. Lot's of guys just root for the Bills quarterback. I don't mind homers.

Let it go. I'm very impressed with your Coach Sal correspondence. I've talked to him over the Internet as well. Big deal. Roethlisberger's quip is also very important. It may surprise you to know that people from Buffalo may have ties to actual insiders within the organization. Go figure. Not sure you really understand anything, Canadian Browns fan...even though, by your own admission, you've watched more football than anybody I've ever known...ridiculous thing to say.

[yordad]

Just goes to show you, even with a line that "sucks", teams can win if the QB produces.But a team with a QB that produces AND a good line is at a huge advantage. Especially if our producing QB gets killled.

[yordad]

Not sure that I was implying anything other than his stats from the Jets game skews everything.

Think about it, in the Detroit game 308 yards passing, 17 offensive points, 9 from FGs. 1 passing TD.

In the New England game 299 passing, 1 passing TD, 22 offensive points.

In the Minnesota game 283 passing, 2 passing TDs, 17 offensive points.

In the Jets game, 238 passing, 4 passing TDs, 43 offensive points.

Let me ask you a question, would you start Orton every week in FFL? I mean if he's a top-10 QB he would and should be starting on most ffl rosters, right?

Otherwise I was just posting some data and asking some questions. Apparently no one seems to think that when we get sacked that it means much, but many of those same people will build a case out of a defense being tops because of sacks. I don't see how that can possibly be. Either sacks matter or they don't. But they would have to have a similar impact both ways.Why would you consider it skewing? No one is saying "He is the best QB ever because in his last game his passer rating was 143".

He played 4 games. All four were against better than average to elite pass defenses. Of course he isn't going to throw 4 td every game. But, he has thrown 9 in 4 games and I wouldn't be surprised one bit if that continued.

And, sacks matter. They contribute to failed drives, turnovers, mistakes, etc. I fail to see your point though. How are you applying this to the assessment of Orton? Again, being top 10 in every statistical category in spite of atrocious pass blocking, IMO, only helps the case for calling Orton one of the better NFL QBs.

[CommissarSpartacus]

...Would it interest you that I never thought Losman was a good player? Probably not; in fact, you'd probably think that I was lying..

1. Please tell me why you thought Losman wasn't a good player.
2. when did you go public with your opinion of Losman being a lousy player?
3. What was your position on Losman being replaced by Holcomb?
4. Did you object to Eric Moulds going to Ralph to ask for Holcomb to replace Losman a second time?
5. Did you object to Ralph telling Mularkey he could stay as HC as long as he fired Tom Clements?

[yordad]

it could be worse. my point is that those metrics can be skewed either way with a smaller sample size. i think his total yards being high is impressive. I think his targets of 8-10 receivers a game is impressive. i think 3-1 is impressive.

but i am not sold until i see the sesaon. he could be worse, he could be better. the 10 year record is that he tends to even out. if he breaks out in a full season (or 12 games in his case) and takes us to the playoffs, i'm fully on board for a 3-4 year contract, front loaded to make him a starter. i wouldnt do a longer stretch because i would be afraid he'd regress back to his norms.Of course a bigger sample size would make a prediction more accurate, but still the best way to predict what will happen is what has happened. And, in the current set of circumstances he has done nothing but thrive. And, his last game was arguably his best game. So.... that said.... we do play in B-lo so I am sure his stats will drop off in the snow and wind but as long as the opposing QB's does the same and we put up wins I couldn't care less.

[yordad]

You were a Losman fan, right?I was a Losman fan. And an EJ fan. But that doesn't mean Orton shouldn't be starting.

[feldspar]

1. Please tell me why you thought Losman wasn't a good player.
2. when did you go public with your opinion of Losman being a lousy player?
3. What was your position on Losman being replaced by Holcomb?
4. Did you object to Eric Moulds going to Ralph to ask for Holcomb to replace Losman a second time?
5. Did you object to Ralph telling Mularkey he could stay as HC as long as he fired Tom Clements?

Why bother? You STILL wouldn't believe me, and ask yourself why that is?

[yordad]

How did this get highjacked by someone names Spartcus babbling about JP losman? WTF is the relevance?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Why bother? You STILL wouldn't believe me, and ask yourself why that is?

Answer the questions, loudmouth.

Inquiring minds would like to know just how full of crap you are...

[CommissarSpartacus]

How did this get highjacked by someone names Spartcus babbling about JP losman? WTF is the relevance?

How does Spartacus hijack his own thread? Maybe he's trying to make a point? You never know...

[yordad]

OK, you're right. I do not know everything. And I will go on the record by saying I have no idea what the point you are tying to make actually is. No offense.

[feldspar]

How did this get highjacked by someone names Spartcus babbling about JP losman? WTF is the relevance?

Spartacus started the thread, and it was most likely a set-up to eventually talk about JP Losman.

That's all he can talk about.

[WagonCircler]

How does Spartacus hijack his own thread? Maybe he's trying to make a point? You never know...

If your point is that Kelly Holcomb wasn't worthless, you're still just as wrong today as you were ten years ago.

If your point is that Kyle Orton = Kelly Holcomb, you're even more fuctup now than you were then.

[feldspar]

Answer the questions, loudmouth.

Inquiring minds would like to know just how full of crap you are...

Nobody cares except for you. I won't waste my time, as I'm familiar with your tactics. You assume I'm full of crap, anyway...again, why is that? Answer THAT question, douchebag.

And LOL, "when did I go public" with my interpretation of Losman? Go **** yourself.

You're just ridiculous.

[better days]

Who I talked to? About this incident, it was good old Coach Sal Cappaccio himself, who was on the sideline with the Steelers during the final game of the 2004 season.

Among other things Sal mentioned was he was talking to Ben R. when Losman came out on to the field. Sal said ben Laughed and said "JP Losman. What a dick!" LOL! When Ben the rapist calls you a dick, you know you have to be pretty good at it.

Sal also told us about being invited back to Mularkey's house after the game, and over beers have MM tell him that Bledsoe was gone and that Losman was going to be the starter in 2005. This was just a couple of hours after the game.

So, the obvious implication, since Mularkey said it was a done deal that Ralph and TD, and especially Ralph, were behind the decision and presented it to the coaches as a fait accompli.

And yes, even though they didn't say so until February, they DID release Bledsoe and made Losman the starter after having only run something like 8 plays the year before after recovering from his teammates breaking his leg on purpose.

Mularkey, being a weakling, went along with it, but Clements fought for the team and Holcomb, and Ralph never forgave him after Holcomb showed up Losman so badly.

What can we learn from that season?

That you shouldn't flush the team, the fans and the organi2ation down the toilet because guys like you and Ralph have a hard on for the cute new qb.

It seems we've learned the lesson. Maybe someone WAS paying attention.

Take what Sal Cappacio says with a grain of salt.

He was a H.S. Coach.....................of a GIRLS soccer team in Fla.

He did NOT Coach HS football. He did go to some Coaching clinics, but was not a HS FOOTBALL Coach.

I DOUBT Sal was on the Steelers sideline in 2004. He knew NOBODY back at that time.

Before moving back to Buffalo & getting his break at WGR, Sal did a podcast from his house on crappy equipment.

I give Sal all the Credit in the World for following his dream & getting to where he is at today.

But he likes to embellish.

[feldspar]

If your point is that Kyle Orton = Kelly Holcomb, you're even more fuctup now than you were then.

That he's fuctup is a given.

Of course, he thought Holcomb was a top ten QB.

Holcomb started 12 games over nine-years before he came to Buffalo. That's actually fewer starts than EJ Manuel had before they benched him. He's enamored with Holcomb probably because he had a couple of few big days in Cleveland, which is perhaps his team.

Orton is a REAL veteran, as he started 70 games before coming to Buffalo. That's called experience. Whether Orton works out remains to be seen, but the guy is playing well now. There is no question he is the guy the Bills should be starting, regardless.

Spartacus' fixation is endless. I also have to wonder what his offshoot of Tom Clements is all about...Clements was the QB coach in Green Bay for 7 years after he left Buffalo. That's not a hard job, considering what he's had to work with. Offensive Coordinator there for a couple of years.

[Mace]

And I'll say the same thing I said last time. You're wrong about Holcomb like you were wrong about Losman and wrong about Stevie Johnson.

You're like a lot of other semi-smart Bills fans, lucid most of the time but with a weird propensity to fall in love with players that don't deserve it to the detriment of tbhe team.

Ok, well educate me. How did Holcomb not have less starts, a rag arm, less stats and how was Stevie Johnson a thug driving to work every day in his family van along with his co gangsta church guy David Nelson ?

I think you're in over your head. Has nothing to do with who I am in love with or who I ever was, or who you were. Try and educate me here and I will give you concrete links to Holcomb and Orton stats, and you can man up and admit you are wrong or sissy out by ignoring them or invent a fresh conspiracy about the NFL lying about stats.

I don't even care if you say I'm semi-smart or not because you're looking ignorant of the obvious numbers. Why do you even say this stuff ? So educate me.

[Meathead]

The difference between 2005 and now is that EJ doesn't have REMOTELY the same number of rabid fans as Losman had.

losman also had more success than ej. that third season when they added vince young to the probowl as an injury replacement it really should have been losman, who had better stats but had fewer wins and got lots less attention on espn

also, i dont think holcomb was nearly as dramatic an improvement as orton has been. whatever tepid support there may have been remaining for ej pretty much evaporated during ortons 3-1 start

[CommissarSpartacus]

OK, you're right. I do not know everything. And I will go on the record by saying I have no idea what the point you are tying to make actually is. No offense.

No problem. Watch and learn...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Take what Sal Cappacio says with a grain of salt.

He was a H.S. Coach.....................of a GIRLS soccer team in Fla.

He did NOT Coach HS football. He did go to some Coaching clinics, but was not a HS FOOTBALL Coach.

I DOUBT Sal was on the Steelers sideline in 2004. He knew NOBODY back at that time.

Before moving back to Buffalo & getting his break at WGR, Sal did a podcast from his house on crappy equipment.

I give Sal all the Credit in the World for following his dream & getting to where he is at today.

But he likes to embellish.

None of this has anything to do with whether or not Sal was telling the truth, and seeing as we had this conversation over at the range the week after the game, I see no reason not to believe him.

I've known Sal, as has cookie and lecter and many others for over a decade and he's always been a straight shooter. Does he know everything? Of course not, only I do.

But to try to argue with an interesting story by impugning Sal's character just isn't justified.

[CommissarSpartacus]

losman also had more success than ej. that third season when they added vince young to the probowl as an injury replacement it really should have been losman, who had better stats but had fewer wins and got lots less attention on espn

also, i dont think holcomb was nearly as dramatic an improvement as orton has been. whatever tepid support there may have been remaining for ej pretty much evaporated during ortons 3-1 start

Holcomb won his first 2 starts and looked just like Orton does now, and he almost beat the Pats in NE.

After his 7th start, he was in the top 10 in qb rating, and only a succession of flukes in the final game against the Jets drove his rating down.

Holcomb's success is what necessitated the bogus "qb competition" of 2006, where Jauron put Holcomb in for the first quarfter of the first pre season game, then declared Losman the starter. LOL! No wonder the team gave up. They HATED Losman. Everybody he ever played with hated Losman. That so many Bills fans had a ridiculous fixation with him was creepy.

Man, you guys don't remember much, do you?

[better days]

None of this has anything to do with whether or not Sal was telling the truth, and seeing as we had this conversation over at the range the week after the game, I see no reason not to believe him.

I've known Sal, as has cookie and lecter and many others for over a decade and he's always been a straight shooter. Does he know everything? Of course not, only I do.

But to try to argue with an interesting story by impugning Sal's character just isn't justified.

Living in Fla on the West Coast about 30 minutes from where Sal used to live, I listened to his podcasts all the time as there were no apps for phones to get WGR or any other radio station that was not local.

As I said, Sal likes to embellish. To call himself Coach & give the impression he was a FOOTBALL Coach is a JOKE. Sal Coached GIRLS soccer, NOT boys FOOTBALL.

And while that story may be interesting, I DOUBT it is true. Please explain how a young guy from Buffalo that was not a member of the media in 2004 was able to get on the Steelers sideline

or how he knew Mularkey well enough to be invited to his house. I'm not buying what you are selling.

[Meathead]

well lee evans sure didnt hate losman. and right now ejs game isnt near the level jps was at in 06. losman wasnt well liked personally for whatever reason but he worked very reasonably well with them that year

further, holcomb started well here but fizzled out, similar to fitz but we didnt give kelly a huge contract before he went into the crapper. same thing might happen to orton but hes had a longer and more successful stint at starting so hes obviously further along in that regard

funny how subdued the fan base is on orton so far, myself included. i think weve been thru this so many times recently its like here we go again, lets wait and see what happens this time

[Meathead]

As I said, Sal likes to embellish.

gotta admit weve seen that here too. but so what, i like sal, he markets himself, and he appears born to do what he does. im glad he found his special purpose and does it in bflo. i still even like him despite creating one of the most hilariously bizarre moments on race issue discussions weve ever seen. classic

[better days]

gotta admit weve seen that here too. but so what, i like sal, he markets himself, and he appears born to do what he does. im glad he found his special purpose and does it in bflo. i still even like him despite creating one of the most hilariously bizarre moments on race issue discussions weve ever seen. classic

I like Sal myself as well. As I said, I give him a lot of credit for having the courage to follow his dream & am happy for him & the success he has had.

Like i said, I used to listen to his podcasts all the time.

And sometimes they were very hard to listen to due to the poor equipment he was using.

I still enjoy listening to Sal on WGR despite his penchant for embellishing.

And I really don't mean to impugn Sal's character.

But in 2004, Sal was a College Student at Syracuse from Buffalo NY.

I remember him telling how he used to take the bus from Syracuse to Buffalo to watch Bills games.

I would like to hear the story how he made his way to the sideline of the Steelers or how he got invited to Mularky's house that same magical weekend.

I also find it hard to believe Roethlisburger would call Losman a dick to a stranger on the sideline during a game as well.

I doubt Big Ben knew Losman well enough to know if he was a dick or not for that matter.

[WagonCircler]

I would like to hear the story how he made his way to the sideline of the Steelers or how he got invited to Mularky's house that same magical weekend.

I remember that story, and I totally believe it.

Sal was doing the job that a friend of mine used to do for the Bills.

It was the era before wireless headsets on the sidelines, so they needed a guy to "manage" the hard wired coach's headphones, to keep people from tripping over the lines or standing on the lines, so the HC could move freely on the sidelines.

Not a glamorous job. No reason for embellishment. And the only possible way I'd know this was that Sal included it in his posts, since I've never met him personally.

I remember him telling a story about how Plaxico Burress was either deaf or thick as a brick, and kept standing on the cord.

I remember the Mularkey story, too. Sal was giddy, like a little kid, and portrayed it that way. He wasn't acting like he was all cool and ran with the Bills coaching crew. He presented it as a once in a lifetime encounter at a postgame party.

I don't know anything about what he did in FLA, but I do remember the sideline story, and it rang 100% true. It wasn't as you characterize it.

[better days]

I remember that story, and I totally believe it.

Sal was doing the job that a friend of mine used to do for the Bills.

It was the era before wireless headsets on the sidelines, so they needed a guy to "manage" the hard wired coach's headphones, to keep people from tripping over the lines or standing on the lines, so the HC could move freely on the sidelines.

Not a glamorous job. No reason for embellishment. And the only possible way I'd know this was that Sal included it in his posts, since I've never met him personally.

I remember him telling a story about how Plaxico Burress was either deaf or thick as a brick, and kept standing on the cord.

I remember the Mularkey story, too. Sal was giddy, like a little kid, and portrayed it that way. He wasn't acting like he was all cool and ran with the Bills coaching crew. He presented it as a once in a lifetime encounter at a postgame party.

I don't know anything about what he did in FLA, but I do remember the sideline story, and it rang 100% true. It wasn't as you characterize it.

Well, I guess it is possible Sal was on the sideline, but I still find it hard to believe Big Ben would tell a total stranger that Losman is a dick.

And a post game party sounds different than the way Sparticus said Sal going to the Coaches house after the game.

[jimmifli]

Well, I guess it is possible Sal was on the sideline, but I still find it hard to believe Big Ben would tell a total stranger that Losman is a dick.
Why? He was such a dick Troy Vincent intentionally injured him.

[yordad]

Why? He was such a dick Troy Vincent intentionally injured him.Why in the holy hell would one of the leagues most respected veterans purposely injure a rookie teammate in a practice? You must know how ridiculous this sounds.

[Topas]

Hi did not intentionally injure him. He tackled him full speed in either a non-tackle drill or in a half speed walk-through (dont remember exactly). He did not want to injure him but he wanted to send a message. That he got injured was unfortunate, or maybe fortunate, but at least not planned.

[better days]

Why? He was such a dick Troy Vincent intentionally injured him.

Here is why...

I doubt Vincent meant to injure him for one thing, I think he just meant to shake him up.

I doubt Ben knew Losman well enough to know if he was a dick or not & I doubt Ben would have told a young kid he did not know that even if he thought it.

Like I said Sal likes to embellish.

[TacklingDummy]

I was a Losman fan. And an EJ fan. But that doesn't mean Orton shouldn't be starting.
I was a Losman and EJ fan too.
Doesn't mean I didn't think they would suck.
I much rather of them to have proved me wrong.
It would be much more fun watching them team have success.

[jimmifli]

Hi did not intentionally injure him. He tackled him full speed in either a non-tackle drill or in a half speed walk-through (dont remember exactly). He did not want to injure him but he wanted to send a message. That he got injured was unfortunate, or maybe fortunate, but at least not planned.
JP was wearing a redshirt, ran a bootleg and tried for a few extra yards at the sideline. Vincent hit him out of bounds.

His intent was to hurt JP and teach him a lesson. Injury was certainly a possible outcome when hitting a guy that is not expecting to be hit.

[feldspar]

His intent was to hurt JP and teach him a lesson.

This is ridiculous, and I don't believe it for one second.

If you assume that's true, that would be horrible indictment on Troy Vincent and nobody else. If you don't like a guy or what he does for any reason, you intentionally hurt him? A guy that would even dream of doing that to his own teammate would be the worst type of player to have on your team, regardless of anything else at all.

[Mr. Pink]

This is ridiculous, and I don't believe it for one second.

If you assume that's true, that would be horrible indictment on Troy Vincent and nobody else. If you don't like a guy or what he does for any reason, you intentionally hurt him? A guy that would even dream of doing that to his own teammate would be the worst type of player to have on your team, regardless of anything else at all.

How is it ridiculous?

Vincent hit Losman in a non contact drill while he was wearing a red jersey which definitely means do not touch. Vincent had been in the league for years and was full aware not to hit the guy in the red jersey, yet he did anyway.

There was intent of some sort to send a message to Losman. What that intent was no one will no for certain but it was clearly there.

[feldspar]

How is it ridiculous?

Vincent hit Losman in a non contact drill while he was wearing a red jersey which definitely means do not touch. Vincent had been in the league for years and was full aware not to hit the guy in the red jersey, yet he did anyway.

There was intent of some sort to send a message to Losman. What that intent was no one will no for certain but it was clearly there.

Vincent said the two collided when Losman attempted to cut back into the middle. "I didn't hit him to tackle him, he was cutting back and I just happened to catch the blade of his shoulder pad,'' Vincent said. "I didn't know he had fallen. I just continued to run, and when I looked back, he was on the ground.''

Did you actually SEE it?

Vincent wouldn't intentionally hurt his own teammate. That's the ridiculous part. Are you going to call Vincent a liar who would intentionally hurt his team's rookie first-round quarterback in August? If so, THAT'S the thing we should be talking about. What kind of a bad character VINCENT has; however, I just don't believe that.

I believe it was an accident, and accidents happen.

[justasportsfan]

How is it ridiculous?

Vincent hit Losman in a non contact drill while he was wearing a red jersey which definitely means do not touch. Vincent had been in the league for years and was full aware not to hit the guy in the red jersey, yet he did anyway.

There was intent of some sort to send a message to Losman. What that intent was no one will no for certain but it was clearly there.

maybe there was intent to hit him but not to hurt him. Troy Vincent was not a classless jerk. He was the president of the players assoc.

[Mr. Pink]

maybe there was intent to hit him but not to hurt him. Troy Vincent was not a classless jerk. He was the resident of the players assoc.

That's all I'm saying...there was an intent to send some kind of message. I'm sure the message wasn't to basically take him out for a year though.

[feldspar]

That's all I'm saying...there was an intent to send some kind of message. I'm sure the message wasn't to basically take him out for a year though.

What the **** do you REALLY know about it?

You don't think it's even possible that the collision happened accidentally? If so, why not?

[CommissarSpartacus]

LOL!

Like I said, some former Losmaniacs have grown up, some will never grow up.

The story is absolutely true as related to the board. If the range hadn't blown up, we'd still be able to find it. If you want to call sal a liar, I can get him to drop in to tell you you're wrong.

First, about the dick part. It was well established that Losman was a dick. There were multiple stories about multiple people calling Losman a dick.Even his MOTHER called him out on it. I tried to warn Bills fans but the Losmaniacs spun it by claiming they WANTED a dick as a qb, because Jim Kelly was a dick so obviously Losman was the next Kelly. Mind-bendingingly stupid.

Second, for those too stupid to get it, Sal was invited back to a small party at Mularkey's house after the game, where he heard the stuff he reported. remember, at this time Sal was a HS teacher just arguing with me, so he had absolutely no reason to lie or embellish.

Third, about Troy Vincent.

Losman, being the dick he was, had a habit of running for the sidelines, then when the defensive player let up because he had the red shirt on, Losman would juke him and continue down the sideline, making the Dback look like a fool.

Losman tried it on Vincent and Vincent taught the rookie a lesson.

Did he intend to break his leg? Probably not, but he sure didn't seem to be too upset about it, and neither was the rest of the team.

[feldspar]

Losman, being the dick he was, had a habit of running for the sidelines, then when the defensive player let up because he had the red shirt on, Losman would juke him and continue down the sideline, making the Dback look like a fool.

Losman tried it on Vincent and Vincent taught the rookie a lesson.

Did he intend to break his leg? Probably not, but he sure didn't seem to be too upset about it, and neither was the rest of the team.

Losman's mom called him a dick, or thereabouts? Link...in fact, give us a number of times anybody called him a dick, or thereabouts. As far as I can see, "multiple people" have called YOU a dick, or thereabouts...if the accusations make it so, then you certainly are a dick (or thereabouts) as well. And, as much as you again won't believe me for some strange reason, I'm not defending Losman. I'm genuinely curious about these "multiple reports."

If Roethlisberger called him a dick on the sideline, so what anyway. This is evidence of some sort? Why? Even the best people in the world get called names by somebody. Again, tell me about these "multiple reports."

Did you see the play where Vincent hurt Losman? If you are so sure about what happened, then please explain what exactly happened ON THE FIELD with the play in question. No question that it was intentional, eh? Tell me why you are so sure of that. Have there ever been any accidental collisions in practice with a QB before or since?

Just stop with your Losman fixation anyway. It's just dumb.

[bleve]

Living in Fla on the West Coast about 30 minutes from where Sal used to live, I listened to his podcasts all the time as there were no apps for phones to get WGR or any other radio station that was not local.

As I said, Sal likes to embellish. To call himself Coach & give the impression he was a FOOTBALL Coach is a JOKE. Sal Coached GIRLS soccer, NOT boys FOOTBALL.

And while that story may be interesting, I DOUBT it is true. Please explain how a young guy from Buffalo that was not a member of the media in 2004 was able to get on the Steelers sideline

or how he knew Mularkey well enough to be invited to his house. I'm not buying what you are selling.

If you're going to ridicule the legitimacy of someone, get your facts straight.

He was a football coach. Not the head coach, but a coach none the less.

Here's a link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19991106&id=I0EgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KH4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5388,757909) to a newspaper clipping...

Also, it was the girls track team, not soccer.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Losman's mom called him a dick, or thereabouts? Link..


This one time. After this you'll have to pay.

http://roc.democratandchronicle.com/article/20050911/SPORTS0102/509110374/Hard-working-single-mother-guided-Bills-Losman-right-path

After the Losmans divorced, a schism developed between J.P. and his dad that didn't heal until his late teens.

"My brothers and his cousins helped fill some of that void for Jonathan when he was growing up," Tricia said. "They were good athletes, too, and he wound up following in their footsteps and becoming a starter in baseball, football and basketball at Venice High School."

Despite her hectic schedule, Tricia always found a way to attend J.P.'s games. She was a laid-back spectator. There was one basketball game, though, where she wanted to ring her son's neck.

"There was a time-out and I could hear Jonathan laying into some of his teammates," she recalled. "I was mortified. That game couldn't end soon enough for me. On the ride home that night, I gave him an earful. I told him that was no way to be a leader. I told him you should be encouraging your teammates, not tearing them down. I think I got my point across."




As for the rest of your dumbass post, I'm happy to educate those who want to learn. Those that just want to fight are treated in the appropriate manner.

[Cleve]

JP Loseman unquestionably sucked monkey ballz. Carry on.

[feldspar]

This one time. After this you'll have to pay.

http://roc.democratandchronicle.com/article/20050911/SPORTS0102/509110374/Hard-working-single-mother-guided-Bills-Losman-right-path

After the Losmans divorced, a schism developed between J.P. and his dad that didn't heal until his late teens.

"My brothers and his cousins helped fill some of that void for Jonathan when he was growing up," Tricia said. "They were good athletes, too, and he wound up following in their footsteps and becoming a starter in baseball, football and basketball at Venice High School."

Despite her hectic schedule, Tricia always found a way to attend J.P.'s games. She was a laid-back spectator. There was one basketball game, though, where she wanted to ring her son's neck.

"There was a time-out and I could hear Jonathan laying into some of his teammates," she recalled. "I was mortified. That game couldn't end soon enough for me. On the ride home that night, I gave him an earful. I told him that was no way to be a leader. I told him you should be encouraging your teammates, not tearing them down. I think I got my point across."




As for the rest of your dumbass post, I'm happy to educate those who want to learn. Those that just want to fight are treated in the appropriate manner.

Thanks for the link. Have you been holding it under your belt for years?

I had no idea that Losman's parent's marriage dissolved when he was 5-years-old. I also didn't know that Losman's mom brought in 5 nephews and nieces into her home. Including mom, her two children, and her five nephews and nieces, there were apparently EIGHT people IN A TWO-BEDROOM APARTMENT. I did not know that.

I also didn't know that Losman's mom had this to say about it:

"It wouldn't have worked if Jonathan and his sister didn't open up their hearts and allow the others to move in with us," she said from the same apartment where she's lived for nearly 20 years. "Jonathan became a big brother to all the kids. He made sacrifices so they could have a better life. I'm more proud of that than anything he's accomplished in sports."

Did you know that?

Crazy that there should be an incident where a mother should disapprove of a teenager's behavior, though. Have you heard of such things before? Never seen some of the all-time great QBs "laying into some of his teammates" before, either. Wonder if JP's mom thought he was a dick when he tied a ribbon to her BMW present.

Also, take that "I'm willing to teach those that want to learn" attitude and shove it up your worthless ass. All you EVER talk about is basically JP Losman...never proven any knowledge of the game whatsoever. Just some strange overly-personal vendetta, which is crazy, nonsensical, and creepy. You some sort of authority of JP's character?

Again, let it go. It does not matter. You're being an idiot.

[YardRat]

Sal did break the TO signing direct from one of his sources (obviously well-placed) and IIRC was told by Whitner himself that it was OK to 'break' the news that he was signing with Cincinnati almost literally moments before the big 180 and signing with San Fran.

[justasportsfan]

Thanks for the link. Have you been holding it under your belt for years?


I told you Sparty's fascination with JP is freaky.

[The Jokeman]

You do realize that three of those measures skyrocketed after the Jets game, right?

His rating went up over 10 points, his two longest passes were in that game, and his YPA in the Jets game was twice what it was over his first three games. It was 14 vs. the Jets, 7.2 prior to that. 8.0 now.

He also has more sacks per game than any other QB or team this season.

Just about everyone seems to suggest that sacks are huge on D, but if that's the case then shouldn't they be equally huge for defenses that play us?

He's on pace to come close to Bledsoe's team record for sacks allowed but it took Bledsoe 16 games, Orton's pace would achieve it in 13. Saving Orton is that he can only play 12 games. At the rate he's going he'll lead the league in sacks at the end of this season though.

Is that relevant?

Tom Brady's stats took a boost when he played the Jets too, should we not count his numbers for that game too? I agree there's a small concern with Orton's taking sacks but FYI Joe Flacco was the 8th most sacked QB in 2012, Russell Wilson was the 3rd most sacked QB in 2013.

[better days]

If you're going to ridicule the legitimacy of someone, get your facts straight.

He was a football coach. Not the head coach, but a coach none the less.

Here's a link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19991106&id=I0EgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KH4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5388,757909) to a newspaper clipping...

Also, it was the girls track team, not soccer.

It was a GIRLS SOCCER team Sal Coached.

I like Sal as I said before, So I am going to cease & desist talking about this.

STUPID it was started about Losman in the first place.

This is 2014. There is no need to talk about Losman any further.

As JP said, that ship has sailed.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I had no idea... I also didn't know...I did not know that...I also didn't know...

Did you know that?


Yes, I did know those things, as I also knew you didn't. But that's no surprise because there seems to be a lot of things that you don't know that I do. Which is my point.

Losmaniacs were clueless, which would have been okay if they'd just kept their mouths shut. But the other facet of Losmania besides the ignorance, the ugly one, was mean spirited hostility that had a distinct whiff of homo-erotism about it. JP was more than just another professional athlete, he was a fantasy object for the fan boys, someone they'd all love to be, so when JP was yanked they went ballistic because they were exposed as not only idiots, but closet cases as well. Real nasty *****es.

Like you.

[BillsOverDolphins]

:rofl:

feldspar just got ethered tbh

[CommissarSpartacus]

STUPID it was started about Losman in the first place.

This is 2014. There is no need to talk about Losman any further.

As JP said, that ship has sailed.

It's my thread and I don't remember asking former Losmaniacs for their opinions in the first place.

So, if you want to stop talking about it, you're free to do so.

Oh, what's that? You want everybody to stop talking about Losman? Because you find it embarrassing?

Well, I can understand that. You should be embarrassed.

[better days]

It's my thread and I don't remember asking former Losmaniacs for their opinions in the first place.

So, if you want to stop talking about it, you're free to do so.

Oh, what's that? You want everybody to stop talking about Losman? Because you find it embarrassing?

Well, I can understand that. You should be embarrassed.

You have a BAD memory. You asked me if I was a Losman fan.

Losman is less embarrassing than Trent Edwards & his fans.

But this is 2014. No need to talk of either of them any longer.

[bleve]

It was a GIRLS SOCCER team Sal Coached.

I like Sal as I said before, So I am going to cease & desist talking about this.

STUPID it was started about Losman in the first place.

This is 2014. There is no need to talk about Losman any further.

As JP said, that ship has sailed.

Seriously?


Lemon Bay Girls Track & Field (http://track.isport.com/track-teams/us/florida/englewood/lemon-bay-high-school-girls-1292230)

[feldspar]

Yes, I did know those things, as I also knew you didn't. But that's no surprise because there seems to be a lot of things that you don't know that I do. Which is my point.

Losmaniacs were clueless, which would have been okay if they'd just kept their mouths shut. But the other facet of Losmania besides the ignorance, the ugly one, was mean spirited hostility that had a distinct whiff of homo-erotism about it. JP was more than just another professional athlete, he was a fantasy object for the fan boys, someone they'd all love to be, so when JP was yanked they went ballistic because they were exposed as not only idiots, but closet cases as well. Real nasty *****es.

Like you.

There you go again, and this is entirely typical of your tactics, which I alluded to before.

You quote my sarcasm tidbits and ignore everything else. Nice job.

My hostility is directed towards YOU, a dip**** know-it-all that likes to deliberately harass people about JP Losman, even pathetically years after the fact...you do this no matter what, if you feel like it. Yeah, have it your way...his own mom kinda thought he was a dick based on one incident. Sure. So what? Kinda sounded like she was proud of him for being so generous overall in a tough spot, but we'll just ignore that part, right? Ignore everything that's said except soundbites that you can exploit and take out of context in order to troll.

I couldn't give two ****s about JP Losman, nor you. I told you I never thought he was a good player, yet you are still trying to get under my skin and paint a ridiculous irrelevant picture.



:rofl:

feldspar just got ethered tbh

If you buy that ****, then you're an idiot.

[CommissarSpartacus]

My hostility is directed towards YOU, a dip**** know-it-all that likes to deliberately harass people about JP Losman, even pathetically years after the fact...

It's unfortunate that I'll never be able to punish Losmaniacs enough for what they did to my favorite football team, but that doesn't mean I can't try.

I know you have a guilty conscience, we can all smell it.

The stench of Losmania is a hard, hard thing to get rid of.

[Ed]

Here's a great Orton stat to get things back on track. He's the best 4th quarter qb in the NFL right now.

1. In the fourth quarter: In terms of Total QBR, there is no better late-game quarterback in the NFL this season than Orton. His 87.9 fourth-quarter QBR is first in the NFL, as is his quarterback rating (132.5). Orton averages 9.21 yards per attempt in the fourth quarter, second only to Cincinnati's Andy Dalton. He has thrown five fourth-quarter touchdowns and hasn't been intercepted.
http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/14854/bills-have-improved-in-key-areas-under-kyle-orton

[feldspar]

It's unfortunate that I'll never be able to punish Losmaniacs enough for what they did to my favorite football team, but that doesn't mean I can't try.

I know you have a guilty conscience, we can all smell it.

The stench of Losmania is a hard, hard thing to get rid of.

Uh-huh.

If you haven't gotten my message yet, I'll repeat it: you **** yourself.

You think I'm a "Losmaniac" because I don't like you. Fine. If there is anybody that needs to be punished, it's YOU.

Go back to rooting for the Browns, and also get some kind of perspective. I don't know if you're truly stupid or not. I just know your tactics and your general motivation, which are deplorable. If you REALLY think that Bills fans, even the true "Losmaniacs" had anything to do with his starting, then you really are stupid. Trying to punish EVERYBODY about it a decade later is just beyond ******ed.

I hope you get over it some day. Start by getting over YOURSELF.

Punish Bills fans for Losman...you are an idiot.

[HAMMER]

Now now girls, fight nice.

[feldspar]

Now now girls, fight nice.

Somebody is going to be *****-slapped, and it ain't gonna be me...trust in that.

[WagonCircler]

It's unfortunate that I'll never be able to punish Losmaniacs enough for what they did to my favorite football team, but that doesn't mean I can't try.f.

OK, this is insane, even for you. Seriously. Like, mental illness level delusion.

Fans of any QB don't "do anything" to any team. They have less than zero effect at what happens on the field.

Blame a coach? OK. Blame a GM, an owner. A scout. But blaming fans for damage to a team, real or imagined?

Seek help.

[YardRat]

If we could somehow tie together the bloodlines of the Losmans and the Bushes, it would complete the circle with the Spin Zone quite nicely.

[feldspar]

OK, this is insane, even for you. Seriously. Like, mental illness level delusion.

Fans of any QB don't "do anything" to any team. They have less than zero effect at what happens on the field.

Blame a coach? OK. Blame a GM, an owner. A scout. But blaming fans for damage to a team, real or imagined?

Seek help.

This is nothing new.

He's just come right out and admitted it, finally...that he wants to punish Bills fans over Losman. Insane.

[Mace]

Originally Posted by Spartacus http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=4014449#post4014449)

And I'll say the same thing I said last time. You're wrong about Holcomb like you were wrong about Losman and wrong about Stevie Johnson.

You're like a lot of other semi-smart Bills fans, lucid most of the time but with a weird propensity to fall in love with players that don't deserve it to the detriment of tbhe team.


Ok, well educate me. How did Holcomb not have less starts, a rag arm, less stats and how was Stevie Johnson a thug driving to work every day in his family van along with his co gangsta church guy David Nelson ?

I think you're in over your head. Has nothing to do with who I am in love with or who I ever was, or who you were. Try and educate me here and I will give you concrete links to Holcomb and Orton stats, and you can man up and admit you are wrong or sissy out by ignoring them or invent a fresh conspiracy about the NFL lying about stats.

I don't even care if you say I'm semi-smart or not because you're looking ignorant of the obvious numbers. Why do you even say this stuff ? So educate me.

In case you missed my willingness to gain some knowledge or share some...

[CommissarSpartacus]

In case you missed my willingness to gain some knowledge or share some...

Oh, I didn't miss it.

I just didn't believe it.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Now now girls, fight nice.

I'm not the guy that's fighting, but then I don't have a guilty conscience about my past behavior.

I didn't throw a monkey wrnch into the works by falling in love with a boat-stealing dick who walked away with millions for wasting my time.

Was it all Losman's fault? Nah, that wouldn't be fair. That's why his fans get a piece of the action.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Blame a coach? OK. Blame a GM, an owner. A scout. But blaming fans for damage to a team, real or imagined?

Seek help.

Sorry, but the fans enabled the coach, GM, owner and scouts.

Losmaniacs own a share of the blame.

A big, BIG share...

[swiper]

Sorry, but the fans enabled the coach, GM, owner and scouts.

Losmaniacs own a share of the blame.

A big, BIG share...

How do figure that? No one had any inkling Donahoe would make that stupid trade to move up and draft him. Then he was obligated to force his coach and play him. How are the fans even a little on the hook for that? You should be thanking the people that *****ed about him so much. They got him replaced.

[feldspar]

Sorry, but the fans enabled the coach...



They are enabling Malarkey all over again every time they respond to you...if you see what I mean.

[WagonCircler]

Sorry, but the fans enabled the coach, GM, owner and scouts.

Losmaniacs own a share of the blame.

A big, BIG share...

You continue to prove that you understand nothing about this game.

[CommissarSpartacus]

You continue to prove that you understand nothing about this game.

No, just proving I don't have a guilty conscience.

You guys ****ed up, I didn't.

And ****-ups have very little credibility when they accuse non-****-ups of knowing nothing.

[better days]

No, just proving I don't have a guilty conscience.

You guys ****ed up, I didn't.

And ****-ups have very little credibility when they accuse non-****-ups of knowing nothing.

You are no doubt a Trent Edwards fan & that is as fu--ed up as it gets.

[CommissarSpartacus]

You are no doubt a Trent Edwards fan & that is as fu--ed up as it gets.

You are no doubt a dumbass if you seriously think that.

I want the TEAM to succeed, and one of my points with this whole exercise is to reiterate that throwing the whole team under the bus to "develop" a pretty-boy qb is, was and always will be a supremely stupid thing to do.

Of course they should be playing Orton like they should have played Holcomb like they should have played Flutie.

Wanna know the difference between Flutie/ RJ - Losman/Holcomb and EJ/Orton is?

Ralph...is...dead...

Ralph made the call to start RJ and it was Ralph who made the call to start Losman, encouraged and enabled by a section of the fan base and the writers.

Now that Ralph's dead, we don't have to sacrifice the teams future anymore to satisfy Ralph and his enablers man-crush desires.

[yordad]

I was a Losman and EJ fan too.
Doesn't mean I didn't think they would suck.
I much rather of them to have proved me wrong.
It would be much more fun watching them team have success.I thought Losman sucked. Doesnt mean I didnt think he was our best QB at the time though. And it sure as hell didn't prevent me from arguing with everyone about it on a message board to pass time while I was at work, lol.

[yordad]

How is it ridiculous?

Vincent hit Losman in a non contact drill while he was wearing a red jersey which definitely means do not touch. Vincent had been in the league for years and was full aware not to hit the guy in the red jersey, yet he did anyway.

There was intent of some sort to send a message to Losman. What that intent was no one will no for certain but it was clearly there.Do you have a vid? Maybe he was blocked into him. Maybe Losman changed direction and Vincent had too much momentum. Maybe it was a freak tap out accident. Assuming that because Losman was hit by Troy that Troy wanted to injure a rtookie QB IS ridiculous.

[better days]

You are no doubt a dumbass if you seriously think that.

I want the TEAM to succeed, and one of my points with this whole exercise is to reiterate that throwing the whole team under the bus to "develop" a pretty-boy qb is, was and always will be a supremely stupid thing to do.

Of course they should be playing Orton like they should have played Holcomb like they should have played Flutie.

Wanna know the difference between Flutie/ RJ - Losman/Holcomb and EJ/Orton is?

Ralph...is...dead...

Ralph made the call to start RJ and it was Ralph who made the call to start Losman, encouraged and enabled by a section of the fan base and the writers.

Now that Ralph's dead, we don't have to sacrifice the teams future anymore to satisfy Ralph and his enablers man-crush desires.

Well, except Holcomb was no better than Losman or Edwards.

Holcomb was not as good as Fitz let alone Orton.

[feldspar]

HELP!!!!!!

I'M BEING PUNISHED BY A CANADIAN BROWNS FAN!!!!!!

HELP!!!!!!!!!!

I know I'm never to be believed for some strange reason, but I'd like to thank all you guys for playing a HUGE role in putting together those Bills teams of the late '80s and early '90s. Almost forgot to thank you for that.

[WagonCircler]

I'd like to thank all you guys for playing a HUGE role in putting together those Bills teams of the late '80s and early '90s. Almost forgot to thank you for that.

My only regret is that I couldn't do something about Jeff Wright.

If we had a real run stopper in the middle of that Defense, there would have been no need for Norwood's FG attempt. It would have been the Bills in a blowout.

Sorry about that.

I should have tried harder.

[feldspar]

My only regret is that I couldn't do something about Jeff Wright.

If we had a real run stopper in the middle of that Defense, there would have been no need for Norwood's FG attempt. It would have been the Bills in a blowout.

Sorry about that.

I should have tried harder.

I just hope that you've learned your lesson, young man.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Well, except Holcomb was no better than Losman or Edwards.

Holcomb was not as good as Fitz let alone Orton.

like I said, no doubt a dumbass.

I've gone through this exercise at least a half doen times over the years.

By NO MEASURE was Losman a better qb than Holcomb.

Not to mention that his teammates HATED Losman and wouldn't play for him.

This type of behavior where people pretend to believe ridiculous premises to excuse their previous bad decisions is typical Losmania.

Really dumb and awful stuff. The worst section of Bills fandom.

[HAMMER]

I can't believe you morons are arguing about our old scrap heap of QB's, get a grip.

[feldspar]

This type of behavior where people pretend to believe ridiculous premises

Yeah, that's pretty bad.

but I'm lying again of course.

Again, the only thing you really need to do is go **** yourself.

[WagonCircler]

Again, the only thing you really need to do is go **** yourself.

It could be that he lacks the equipment.

There's no other way to explain his decade old homoerotic obsession.

[feldspar]

It could be that he lacks the equipment.

There's no other way to explain his decade old homoerotic obsession.

Now we are truly getting to the bottom of things.

[swiper]

I can't believe you morons are arguing about our old scrap heap of QB's, get a grip.


Spartacus is the ONLY one that continuously brings up JP Losman. He has a crush on ole #7.

[gebobs]

By NO MEASURE was Losman a better qb than Holcomb.
By NO MEASURE is a Beetle a better car than a Yugo.

[CommissarSpartacus]

By NO MEASURE is a Beetle a better car than a Yugo.

Actually, there are all sorts of significant measures.

A Beetle always gave you a better shot than a Yugo at getting where you want to go.

Refusing to drive your Beetle because your Yugo might morph into a Mercedes is just stupid.

[gebobs]

A Beetle always gave you a better shot than a Yugo at getting where you want to go.

Sure, so long as all you need to do is get to the Quickie Mart and back. Herbie Holcomb wasn't going to win any races.

[Mace]

Oh, I didn't miss it.

I just didn't believe it.

You don't have to believe my motivation, it's irrelevant to your incorrect points. If you didn't miss it, factual parts, irrelevant to my motivation, you should man up and admit you came up with a shallow analogy unable to stand up to fact and move along.

You're either right or wrong comparing Holcomb to Orton, and the same with the old Stevie Johnson/David Nelson are enabling thugs argument you also lost and couldn't bring yourself to admit you were wrong. Yes I still remember it.

The words are easy "I am wrong", try working through them by yourself. The world doesn't change any when you say them.

The posts, removing the side Johnson/Nelson factual discrepancy, Orton is Holcomb, yes or no ? Prove it. You can't, it's wrong. Just admit it, I know you can do this.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Sure, so long as all you need to do is get to the Quickie Mart and back. Herbie Holcomb wasn't going to win any races.

You may not, but you'll get closer to being in a position to win races in the future.

At least with the Beetle, the other teams see you're trying, you're a plucky underdog. With the Yugo they see you've succumbed to a homoerotic delusion fated to destroy the team's chances for years..

And if you can't see the benefit of your peers taking you seriously, well,....

[CommissarSpartacus]

You don't have to believe my motivation, it's irrelevant to your incorrect points.

It's certainly relevant to whether you consider my points correct or incorrect.

Why should I make an effort to educate someone who's only looking for something to fight about? I've been though this before many times with the Losmaniacs and it's a pointless exercise other than it shows non-Losmaniacs the horrific effects of falling in love with the wrong guy and being a douche when it's pointed out.

[YardRat]

HELP!!!!!!

I'M BEING PUNISHED BY A CANADIAN BROWNS FAN!!!!!!

HELP!!!!!!!!!!

I know I'm never to be believed for some strange reason, but I'd like to thank all you guys for playing a HUGE role in putting together those Bills teams of the late '80s and early '90s. Almost forgot to thank you for that.

If Butler would have listened to me, he could have hung on to Wolford, but he was a little bit chicken-**** to test the system that was screwing him.

[gebobs]

You may not, but you'll get closer to being in a position to win races in the future.

At least with the Beetle, the other teams see you're trying, you're a plucky underdog. With the Yugo they see you've succumbed to a homoerotic delusion fated to destroy the team's chances for years..

And if you can't see the benefit of your peers taking you seriously, well,....

Wait...just so we're clear. Holcomb is the Beetle, right? Having Holcomb showed other teams that the Bills were "a plucky underdog"?

LOL...do you really think other teams even game planned for Holcomb? He was a nobody-never-was with a ticket on the train to Palookaville waiting at the station, paid in full.

[Mace]

It's certainly relevant to whether you consider my points correct or incorrect.

Why should I make an effort to educate someone who's only looking for something to fight about? I've been though this before many times with the Losmaniacs and it's a pointless exercise other than it shows non-Losmaniacs the horrific effects of falling in love with the wrong guy and being a douche when it's pointed out.

I'm not looking for anything to fight about, in fact I took a few days off because I don't want to fight about anything I worry I might want to fight about and never stay long in the political forums. I say what I want to and move along if people don't like it. People can agree or not when I argue intangible things with a passion if I said what I wanted to. Free speech. I'm good with it.

If I have tangible though, I pursue a point.

You are not a stupid person. I presented you with facts as you purport to present. I expect you to debate them intelligently. If you can't, I expect you to admit it, as I would and have in numerous threads where I have ridiculed myself. It's not my fault if you aren't paying attention, I am not thinking myself a board superstar and never wrong.

So again I mention, and you are you so oddly married to your point you cannot answer it, your post #25, you were wrong and getting wronger, deal with it and man up ? You compared Holcomb to Orton, it was wrong, you went on to justify your wrong which is like everything you proclaim to hate. You tried to bicker with me about Johnson/Nelson, where you were wrong too, but failed to even try and keep justifying it which is everything you proclaim to hate.

You're being pretty much everything you proclaim to hate, and why should I not see you as a hypocritical fool who lips off a lot loudly ? Why shouldn't anyone, just because you can't properly answer your own point ?

So again, and it has nothing to do with Losman, are you seriously comparing Holcomb to Orton ?

Shoo.

[gebobs]

Sure the situations were similar, but of the 4 QB's in '14 and '05, Orton is clearly the best. Head and shoulders.

The rest can muck about for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. At this point, there isn't much that distinguishes any of them. At least EJ perhaps has potential.

[Mace]

Sure the situations were similar, but of the 4 QB's in '14 and '05, Orton is clearly the best. Head and shoulders.

The rest can muck about for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. At this point, there isn't much that distinguishes any of them. At least EJ perhaps has potential.

The situations aren't really even that similar. Buffalo took a mobile QB to replace a statue back then, and replaced a mobile QB with a statue now. They brought in a rag armed backup then, now replaced a mobile with a not rag armed not surely backup now. It's polar opposite, don't let yourself buy into it because of someone who lips off a lot.

Orton is not Peyton Manning, but he's pretty not undistinguished if not distinguished. Watching Dallas last couple games, well, you have to laugh at them for replacing him with Weeden.

I haven't given up on Manuel, maybe this is where he learns. Maybe it isn't, but we have a buffer now if we make Orton happy enough, and not terrible is so much sweeter than terrible.

We have time now, might be good time.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Wait...just so we're clear. Holcomb is the Beetle, right? Having Holcomb showed other teams that the Bills were "a plucky underdog"?

LOL...do you really think other teams even game planned for Holcomb? He was a nobody-never-was with a ticket on the train to Palookaville waiting at the station, paid in full.

Play dumb all you want, the point remains that no matter how lousy or good Holcomb was, he was immeasurably better than Losman, and starting a qb that gave the team NO HOPE when you had a QB available that gave you some hope destroted the team and organi2ation for years.

Every guy on the team is an independent contractor who stands to make more money if the team is successful.

Playing a guy who's guaranteed to lose when you can play a guy who had one of the top 5 games ever in the playoffs against the Steelers is just taking money from the team's pocket.

I doubt YOU'D like to work under an incompetent boss that costs you money when someone better was available.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Aaaargh. I'm doing it again. Trying to have intelligent conversations with Losmaniacs.

When will I ever learn?

[better days]

Aaaargh. I'm doing it again. Trying to have intelligent conversations with Losmaniacs.

When will I ever learn?

Maybe you should just stop posting altogether.

[gebobs]

Play dumb all you want, the point remains that no matter how lousy or good Holcomb was, he was immeasurably better than Losman
They were both had warts. Losman was a statue with a rocket arm and little else. Holcomb was more of a game manager who had trouble keeping possession. In '05, he had 8 picks and 13 fumbles (6 lost). He had one really good game against Cinci. Otherwise, he was not exactly consistent.


Playing a guy who's guaranteed to lose when you can play a guy who had one of the top 5 games ever in the playoffs against the Steelers
You know who else had one really good playoff game? Jeff George and Richard Todd. Those guys were bums too.


I doubt YOU'D like to work under an incompetent boss that costs you money when someone better was available.
I'd hate to be a fan of a team that did that. In fact, I did hate it. In '06, when Losman was 2-5 out of the gate, better believe I wanted Holcomb to get a shot.

[CommissarSpartacus]

They were both had warts.


We ALL have warts. So what? The fact remains that not only was Holcomb a better qb than Losman, the TEAM thought he was a better player, and when Ralph an TD insisted that Losman be the starter, they were effectively throwing the whole team under the bus for a guy the team considered not only untalented, but a major dick as well.

Remember, the team revolted twice that year over Losman as the starter.

when Eric Moulds, as the team's senior member was appointed to go to Ralph to ask for Holcomb to go back in, the Losmaniacs went after him like a pack of rabid hyenas. Imagine, throwing a great Bill like Eric Moulds under the bus for telling the truth about a guy that no one wanted after Buffalo cut him.

Shameful, just shameful...

[swiper]

You're the one that keeps bringing Losman up. The only one. Everyone is laughing at you.

[gebobs]

We ALL have warts. So what? The fact remains that not only was Holcomb a better qb than Losman, the TEAM thought he was a better player, and when Ralph an TD insisted that Losman be the starter, they were effectively throwing the whole team under the bus for a guy the team considered not only untalented, but a major dick as well.

Remember, the team revolted twice that year over Losman as the starter.

when Eric Moulds, as the team's senior member was appointed to go to Ralph to ask for Holcomb to go back in, the Losmaniacs went after him like a pack of rabid hyenas. Imagine, throwing a great Bill like Eric Moulds under the bus for telling the truth about a guy that no one wanted after Buffalo cut him.

Shameful, just shameful...

Losman was a loser. I know it. You know it. Heck, even Dick Jauron knows it now. Revisiting this decade old soap opera is silly. The Bills made a dumb decision? There's a news flash! Heck, they make dumb decisions like other teams change beer vendors. The history of the franchise is replete with moves that drive we fans nuts. The Lamonica trade, the McDole trade, firing Polian, starting RJ over Flutie, drafting Patulski/Cousineau/Tuttle/McCargo/etc. I could go on and on. Not giving Holcomb the starting job doesn't even rate in the top 100.

Holcomb was nothing. He was mediocre. Dime-a-dozen. Making him the starter would not likely have meant much in the AFC East or the AFC overall. Had they found a way to get to 9 wins and beat out KC for the last wildcard, they would have been slaughtered by Manning anyway.

Now go do a bong hit and relax. Orton isn't a stud, but he is way better than the Losman/Holcomb/Van Pelt/Edwards/Johnson/Collins chorus line of losers.

LOL..."Losmaniacs"...soooooo played.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Losman was a loser. I know it. You know it. Heck, even Dick Jauron knows it now.

I always knew it.

And Orton isn't better than Holcomb, he IS Holcomb.

[justasportsfan]

Hey Shiva. Weren't you a Johnsonite?

[feldspar]

You're the one that keeps bringing Losman up. The only one. Everyone is laughing at you.

Careful.

He doesn't want to fight. He wants to call people liars before patronizing them in ridiculous ways...but he doesn't want to fight. He wants to educate. LOL.

The QB situation ten years ago matters not, anyway.

[gebobs]

I always knew it.
Of course. That's because you are so smart.


And Orton isn't better than Holcomb, he IS Holcomb.

Only football isn't your forte.

[gebobs]

Hey Shiva. Weren't you a Johnsonite?

Dude, Johnsonite is not the preferred nomenclature. RobKnob, please.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Hey Shiva. Weren't you a Johnsonite?

Nope.

I was flabbergasted when Flutie was replaced by Robbo for the Titans game - what happened after that was inevitable...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Of course. That's because you are so smart.


Only football isn't your forte.

1. Yes, I am smart. People without self-esteem issues recogni2e that.

2. A "forte" is a value judgment, therefore even IF football isn't my forte, it still doesn't mean I'm not a smarter football analyst than any of you. It just means I'm even better at something else, as hard as that is to comprehend...

[Mace]

When will I ever learn?

Probably when you stop running away from being wrong.

[YardRat]

Actually, the Beetle is a damn nice car.

[swiper]

shiva confuses intelligence with narcissism once again. It's his modus operandi.

Have a salad.


https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-frc3/t1.0-1/c20.0.87.87/1796524_10152990364301686_2115599125_s.jpg

[CommissarSpartacus]

Probably when you stop running away from being wrong.

I should just relax and embrace dumbassery?

No thanks. I'll leave that to you.

[CommissarSpartacus]

shiva confuses intelligence with narcissism once again. It's his modus operandi.

Have a salad.


https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-frc3/t1.0-1/c20.0.87.87/1796524_10152990364301686_2115599125_s.jpg

Some people are lucky enough to have nall sorts of things to be narcissistic about.

[feldspar]

Some people are lucky enough to have nall sorts of things to be narcissistic about.

Yeah, you've not nall sorts of things to be narcissistic about alright.

Nall:
verb of "llan" which means to "laugh like a nerd" (Nall is backwords of llan)

Mark nalled all night long at Rin's nose.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nall&defid=3926408

[swiper]

Losman was better than Nall.

[Mace]

I should just relax and embrace dumbassery?

No thanks. I'll leave that to you.

There wasn't really any reason to even say that besides desperation. I offered you stats and proofs and asked you for yours. How is that being "dumbassery". It isn't. Get a grip.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Yeah, you've not nall sorts of things to be narcissistic about alright.

Nall:
verb of "llan" which means to "laugh like a nerd" (Nall is backwords of llan)

Mark nalled all night long at Rin's nose.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nall&defid=3926408

:rofl:

This isn't the bottom of the barrel - it's beneath the bottom of the barrel.

Don't quit your day job...

[CommissarSpartacus]

There wasn't really any reason to even say that besides desperation.

Your dumbass opinion.

People with a brain could think of some others...

[feldspar]

:rofl:

This isn't the bottom of the barrel - it's beneath the bottom of the barrel.



That's all you deserve, asswipe.

[Mace]

Your dumbass opinion.

People with a brain could think of some others...

It's stats. What's your issue ? I am not insulting you. Why are you going to insults ? You're falling into the same preconceived pat answers you once accused me of. Am I upsetting you ? I'm sorry. How does that happen ?

So anyway...defend your argument or admit it is wrong. You don't have to insult me, I am amused and not angry. You are amusing me. Throw me some facts or stats ? Or insult me some more ?

[CommissarSpartacus]

That's all you deserve, asswipe.

I deserve to watch you behave like a loudmouth moron?

Thanks for the thought, but you really don't have to act like a jackass on my account.

It's not like none of us know what you're really like already.

Save your energy for someone you have a chance of laying a finger on.

[CommissarSpartacus]

It's stats. What's your issue ? I am not insulting you.

It's insulting when you pretend to want a discussion but actually are just looking for something to argue with.

I\ve been through the stats argument at least a half do2en times and it's pointless repeating it to a Losmaniac looking for a fight.

but here, I'll give you a stat.

Before the Jets game, the last game of the year, Holcomb was top ten in passer rating. His rating only fell after the Jets game, a meaningless contest where he threw 4 picks, none of which were his fault.

In fact, Holcomb showed his willingness to take one for the team when the last pass he threw was a hail mary, where he sacrificed his own stats to try to win a meaningless game..

At that point, he was 4 - 3 as a starter. All that with a team in turmoil and coaches that wanted to get fired.

Okay, I look forward to you telling me the stats are meaningless.

Amuse me.

[Mace]

It's insulting when you pretend to want a discussion but actually are just looking for something to argue with.

I\ve been through the stats argument at least a half do2en times and it's pointless repeating it to a Losmaniac looking for a fight.

but here, I'll give you a stat.

Before the Jets game, the last game of the year, Holcomb was top ten in passer rating. His rating only fell after the Jets game, a meaningless contest where he threw 4 picks, none of which were his fault.

In fact, Holcomb showed his willingness to take one for the team when the last pass he threw was a hail mary, where he sacrificed his own stats to try to win a meaningless game..

At that point, he was 4 - 3 as a starter. All that with a team in turmoil and coaches that wanted to get fired.

Okay, I look forward to you telling me the stats are meaningless.

Amuse me.

It's insulting when people are unable to discuss what they pretend to.

Kelly Holcomb : http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HolcKe00.htm

Kyle Orton : http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm

Has nothing to do with your Losman obsession. The stats are not meaningless, they they are for you in full glory. Orton and Holcomb are comparable in only the narrowest, least significant sense. Holcomb (at 32) was total 5 year record of 13 games started, a 4-9 record, 27 td's to 29 int's, and 3892 total yards passing, where Orton (at 31) has an 8 year record of 70 games started , 35-35 record, 83 td's to 59 int's, and 15,019 yards.

They aren't comparable except you knee jerked and thought they might be. Try again ?

[swiper]

Don't call out shiva. He may go off into a corner and become bulimic.

[feldspar]

I deserve to watch you behave like a loudmouth moron?

Thanks for the thought, but you really don't have to act like a jackass on my account.

It's not like none of us know what you're really like already.

Save your energy for someone you have a chance of laying a finger on.

Wow, I thought you didn't want to fight. It may shock you to learn that I feel the same way about you, only with greater cause. I tell you what I think or thought, and you call me a liar and then proceed to tell me what I REALLY think. Then you proceed to paint some kind of cartoonish picture of what I REALLY am...a "Losmaniac." YOU are the loudmouth moron here. LOL, you know what I'm "really like." Everybody else does too, huh? How arrogant are you, really? You act this way and then are indignant when you encounter hostility as a direct result. Like you have some kind of credentials to pull rank.

*** you.

You have no idea who you are talking to. "Educate me," that's a laugh. And the laugh's on you, as if you think you're limited opinion is gospel. I've been around the facility and have known people...worked there; meanwhile, you sit on your fat ass in Canada and proclaim that I've "done something" to your ''favorite football team." Idiotic, and that's being nice. Go change your affiliation again, and we won't miss you.

[CommissarSpartacus]

It's insulting when people are unable to discuss what they pretend to.

Kelly Holcomb : http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HolcKe00.htm

Kyle Orton : http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm

Has nothing to do with your Losman obsession. The stats are not meaningless, they they are for you in full glory. Orton and Holcomb are comparable in only the narrowest, least significant sense. Holcomb (at 32) was total 5 year record of 13 games started, a 4-9 record, 27 td's to 29 int's, and 3892 total yards passing, where Orton (at 31) has an 8 year record of 70 games started , 35-35 record, 83 td's to 59 int's, and 15,019 yards.

They aren't comparable except you knee jerked and thought they might be. Try again ?

Sorry, but career stats are meaningless in any sort of intelligent discussion about Holcomb and the Bills in 2005. They prove nothing and your attempt to portray them as significant just proves your insincerity once again.

I gave you a stat entirely relevant to the 2005 season and you ignored it because it doesn't support your Losmaniac agenda.

Why should I go on?

"The stats are not meaningless._ ~ you

The fact that you knew what the criticism of your "stats" would be and made a pre-emptive strike against that critique by blandly insisting that the stats are NOT meaningless without any explanation just shows how you're not only willing to BS me, but you're also willing to BS about your BS.

Won't work. Sorry...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Wow, I thought you didn't want to fight.


I never want to fight and so I never do.

Do I take care of loud-mouth blowhards who want to fight with me? Sure, but that's not fighting, at least on my part.

It's just taking out the trash...

[CommissarSpartacus]

...You have no idea who you are talking to. "Educate me," that's a laugh. And the laugh's on you, as if you think you're limited opinion is gospel. I've been around the facility and have known people...worked there...

WOW! You've actually been AROUND THE FACILITY? And you've KNOWN PEOPLE?

Holy crap! Can I have your autograph? I've never been this close to fame before!

With this background, your level of expertise on football must be through the ****ing roof!

Do you get laid a lot? I bet chick's get wet automatically when you casually tell them that "I've been around the facility, and I know people.", huh?

[Mr. Pink]

Kelly Holcomb parlayed one game where he played so inconceivably over his head into a chance to be the starter in Cleveland - where he failed and was benched on and off for Tim Couch. After the Browns realized he failed he was let go and the Bills signed him. He then got to take another starting role here because the incumbent was brutal. He basically turned one playoff game into a showcase piece that allowed him a couple opportunities into being an NFL starter and failed miserably at both chances.

Orton was drafted and developed by the Bears, also benched and regained his job, into becoming a journeyman NFL starter.

Holcomb and Orton are nowhere near comparable outside of the fact that they both took away starting QB opportunities from young bums here.

[CommissarSpartacus]

The funny thing is that when Holcomb was signed, all of Bills fandom was on board, they thought it was a great signing, a veteran guy who could come in and take over if losman got injured.

But when Losman sucked and Holcomb came in and immediately started winning, all of a sudden the Losmaniacs were screaming that Holcomb was the worst qb in the world.

Then, after Holcomb was injured and JP connected on a couple of bombs in the KC game, they decided to give the team back to JP.

Unfortunately, Losman again sucked so badly that Eric Moulds was nominated by the team to go to Ralph and beg for Holcomb to go back in.

The Losmaniacs erupted again, slagging Holcomb AND Moulds and the coaches and the rest of the team because they wouldn't give the Losmaniacs their object of desire.

Did Holcomb or Moulds deserve the amount of hate they inspired? Of course not.

But the Losmaniacs just couldn't get over the blow to their egos, especially after the same guys had made the same mistake with Rob Johnson.

What a disaster.

[HAMMER]

Do people really still say "Chicks"?

[gebobs]

STFU already about Holcomb.

[Mace]

Sorry, but career stats are meaningless in any sort of intelligent discussion about Holcomb and the Bills in 2005. They prove nothing and your attempt to portray them as significant just proves your insincerity once again.

I gave you a stat entirely relevant to the 2005 season and you ignored it because it doesn't support your Losmaniac agenda.

Why should I go on?

"The stats are not meaningless._ ~ you

The fact that you knew what the criticism of your "stats" would be and made a pre-emptive strike against that critique by blandly insisting that the stats are NOT meaningless without any explanation just shows how you're not only willing to BS me, but you're also willing to BS about your BS.

Won't work. Sorry...

They aren't meaningless. They set the entire context in the whole of their meaning to the appropriate debate. Not just one that you become fixated on to support your Losman obsession any more than if I was fixated on one, which I'm not because I mentioned many, and nothing to do with your Losman fixation, which has nothing to do with Holcomb v. Orton but you keep using it as a silly defense against the obvious. There's nothing even remotely BS about anything I said, they're stats, they define the subjects of the discussion, which you started.

I'm sorry too, defending an incorrect assumption (which you jumped in with and makes an A...well never mind that to be nice) with irrelevant agenda (Losman ? he has peripheral involvement to Holcom V. Orton) just to pretend to be incapable of being wrong is a reach.

Keep reaching, every game brings to closer to greater wrong. Say, did you notice in 5 games, Orton has as many TD's as Holcomb had in 8, with 5 less Int's and 122 less yards ? Probably weren't paying attention eh ?

Try again ?

[GvilleBills]

This reminds me of the old days at the Range, when Shiva would embarrass himself and accuse people of doing exactly what he was doing at the time.


If Holcomb knew about your obsession, he'd get a restraining order.


And you've made Mace be all serious, so now I hate you.

[JoeMama]

Do people really still say "Chicks"?

I think the word chicks should be replaced with mondo-babes.

It sounds way more 80s and awesome that way.

[coastal]

I'm kind of partial to "muff wiggler"

[swiper]

I tend to see the forest through the trees with very little wiggling. I pound my way in.

[coastal]

How lucky for them.

gross.

[swiper]

Kyle Orton's stats to date:

#7 in NFL in yards thrown per game. Ahead of Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Philip Rivers, Tony Romo, Colin Kaepernick, many more (EJ Manuel ranks #29th)

#9 in completion percentage. Ahead of Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Andrew Luck, Nick Foles, and many others. (EJ Manuel ranks #30th)

#14 in yards per attempt. Ahead of Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Carson Palmer, Nick Foles, others (EJ Manuel is #30th).

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/yardsPerPassAttempt

It's all fairly straight forward.

[Mace]

And you've made Mace be all serious, so now I hate you.

It can't possibly last.

[JoeMama]

I would also like to add that I correctly predicted that if Kyle Orton took over as QB we'd finish 9-7.

- - - Updated - - -

Unlike that useless EJ Manuel who would have led us to 2-14.

[JoeMama]

BTW where's notacon to defend his hero and savior EJ Manuel?

The utterly worthless QB with no future in football beyond the CFL?

Zero accuracy, especially mid-long range.

A liability anyway you cut it.