Sub topic of a very good article - Still some hope for future EJ

[Yasgur's Farm]

At the risk of being labeled an "EJ apologist" by a chosen few here, I like what I'm hearing him say in this very good article.

If EJ somehow comes out the other end of this as a leader, the Bills (and Bills fans) will be the beneficiary.

Kyle Orton can end up having a profound effect on this franchise in more ways than 1.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/10/28/7079115/geno-smith-jets-michael-vick-kyle-orton-bills

Manuel added: "People may see what he is doing on the field right now but they don't see his approach. The way he speaks to the offensive coordinator (Nathaniel Hackett), the way he talks to everybody in the quarterback room, the way he talks to all of the offensive players. He lets you know what he expects. No, he demands it. It has become a collective thing. Kyle will go through all of the plays with the coaches during the week and be very clear about 'I like that' or 'I don't like that.' I'm watching. I'm learning. Every practice. Every play in every game. I'm always prepared if my number is called. But I am definitely learning how to do some things by watching him.''

[imbondz]

EJ apologist

[Yasgur's Farm]

EJ apologistLOL... Nut hugger.

[ParanoidAndroid]

As long as we don't put more eggs in the EJ basket, sure. Just please keep looking for the upgrade.

[The Doc]

Dude, if we can get a 5th for EJ I'd laugh all the way to the bank with that pick. EJs a helluva guy and a horrible nfl QB.

[Don't Panic]

Love it. The one thing EJ is going to have a hard time fixing is accuracy. All his other defeciencies can be addressed. If you can get any progress on his accuracy, he has a chance at sticking in the league.

[BillsOverDolphins]

Don't need to hear about it. Things are looking up in Bills Land for once and you have to go and bring this loser's name up.

[lavuuk153]

The worst thing to happen to EJ was Kolb getting hurt. He should have sat at least 1 and possibly 2-3 years before becoming the starter considering how raw he was coming out of college.

[Mr. Pink]

barring injury, EJ will never take another snap as a member of the Buffalo Bills. In fact, outside of some preseason work, he may never take another snap as an NFL QB.

Non-subject.

[Don't Panic]

barring injury, EJ will never take another snap as a member of the Buffalo Bills. In fact, outside of some preseason work, he may never take another snap as an NFL QB.

I love when people speak with complete confidence about something they truly have absolutely no idea about. The Bills aren't done with him Pink. I'd almost guarantee he starts another game for us at some point. Not saying he'll be markedly improved, just that he will start again. And it won't necessarily be because of injury.

[RedEyE]

The EJ experiment will definitely be revisited. Might not be for two years but it will eventually happen. Lets not forget, EJ now has something he has ever had and thats a veteran QB to learn the game from. Orton watching film and going through the progressions with the WRs has been reported as something that did not occur before under Marrone and Hackett. I have no doubt EJ is sitting in on these sessions as well. He is a great student if the game and no one can deny his passion and drive. He just needs to make it happen on the field.

[The Doc]

The EJ experiment will definitely be revisited. Might not be for two years but it will eventually happen. Lets not forget, EJ now has something he has ever had and thats a veteran QB to learn the game from. Orton watching film and going through the progressions with the WRs has been reported as something that did not occur before under Marrone and Hackett. I have no doubt EJ is sitting in on these sessions as well. He is a great student if the game and no one can deny his passion and drive. He just needs to make it happen on the field.

Some QBs just can't play in the NFL. JP Losman anyone? Did he not have the coveted year to sit and learn? How'd that work out?

[Albany,n.y.]

The worst thing to happen to EJ was Kolb getting hurt. He should have sat at least 1 and possibly 2-3 years before becoming the starter considering how raw he was coming out of college.

Only a complete moron of a GM would spend a 1st round pick on a QB that is that raw coming out of college in today's NFL. A GM can't spend a 1st rounder on a guy 2-3 years from becoming a starter like it's 1970.

[trapezeus]

considering what we know as fans, would you rather have EJ saying that or disappointed and being a locker room cancer.

the NFL season is a long one. our line is porous, it's not out of the question that ej could play again this year. even if he's just saying the right things, at least he's doing that.

we'll see if he learned anything when the time comes.

[RedEyE]

Some QBs just can't play in the NFL. JP Losman anyone? Did he not have the coveted year to sit and learn? How'd that work out?
Losman is a different story and a different situation. You are comparing apples to oranges.

EJ is going to be given another opportunity to compete for the starting QB position for this team despite how you may feel about it. Maybe in the offseason; maybe two years down the road.

And not laying on the jinx, but how many times can Orton get plowed before he has to sit out a play, or God forbid a couple of weeks? The line has been porous at best. The sack volume has expediently increased inevitably increasing the chances of injury.

My point is that I don't believe EJ has given up on himself and I'm not willing to do that either. Thus far he will make a decnt backup. But I do not think we have seen the best of EJ...his time will come again to prove himself.

[WagonCircler]

Losman is a different story and a different situation. You are comparing apples to oranges.

EJ is going to be given another opportunity to compete for the starting QB position for this team despite how you may feel about it. Maybe in the offseason; maybe two years down the road.

And not laying on the jinx, but how many times can Orton get plowed before he has to sit out a play, or God forbid a couple of weeks? The line has been porous at best. The sack volume has expediently increased inevitably increasing the chances of injury.

My point is that I don't believe EJ has given up on himself and I'm not willing to do that either. Thus far he will make a decnt backup. But I do not think we have seen the best of EJ...his time will come again to prove himself.

It doesn't matter whether EJ has given up on himself.

It doesn't matter whether EJ absorbs every bit of leadership that Orton has.

You can't learn accuracy.

To quote Bill Murray from Meatballs:

"It just doesn't matter."

EJ will never be anything more than a stopgap backup in this league.

[yordad]

You can't learn accuracy.

At a glance, I would agree with this. However, you can gain confidence. You can gain experience. You can gain a better o-line. You can gain better mechanics. All of which can contribute to being more accurate.

[better days]

Only a complete moron of a GM would spend a 1st round pick on a QB that is that raw coming out of college in today's NFL. A GM can't spend a 1st rounder on a guy 2-3 years from becoming a starter like it's 1970.

With todays rules & CBA, it is more practical now than ever to sit a first rnd QB for a while.

QB's now do not make the amount of money they did under the old CBA & a first rnd pick belongs to a team for 5 years.

I don't think it is any problem to sit a QB for 2- 3 years in todays NFL.

[better days]

It doesn't matter whether EJ has given up on himself.

It doesn't matter whether EJ absorbs every bit of leadership that Orton has.

You can't learn accuracy.

To quote Bill Murray from Meatballs:

"It just doesn't matter."

EJ will never be anything more than a stopgap backup in this league.

Link an article from an expert or two that says A QB can not become more accurate.

[Dr. Who]

Dude, if we can get a 5th for EJ I'd laugh all the way to the bank with that pick. EJs a helluva guy and a horrible nfl QB.

How's your boy Bortles, been doing lately?
Since he's struggling, I suppose that means he can't improve.

[Dr. Who]

Don't need to hear about it. Things are looking up in Bills Land for once and you have to go and bring this loser's name up.

Says the man who would sign Ray Rice and Aaron Hernandez, were it possible.
In the game of life, you're the loser.

[Dr. Who]

Only a complete moron of a GM would spend a 1st round pick on a QB that is that raw coming out of college in today's NFL. A GM can't spend a 1st rounder on a guy 2-3 years from becoming a starter like it's 1970.

I liked 1970 . . .

[BillsOverDolphins]

Says the man who would sign Ray Rice and Aaron Hernandez, were it possible.

Yeah, I want talented football players who can help my team win--if the hypothetical scenario presented itself, they would be exponential upgrades at their respective positions.

In the game of life I'm infinitely more successful than you, but I'm sure your good-guy routine will impress the menopausal militia here--which is your ultimate goal.

[TacklingDummy]

The worst thing to happen to EJ was Kolb getting hurt. He should have sat at least 1 and possibly 2-3 years before becoming the starter considering how raw he was coming out of college.

That would be ok if he was a 3rd round or later pick.

[WagonCircler]

Link an article from an expert or two that says A QB can not become more accurate.


http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/4/25/4264734/nfl-draft-2013-ej-manuel-next-level-florida-state

In order to make any kind of assessment of EJ Manuel's pro prospects, there has to be a clear understanding of where he is as a quarterback at the end of his college career. In all the attributes that one would look for in a potential NFL quarterback (footwork, mechanics, accuracy, ability to read a defense, pocket movement/escapability, running ability, etc. etc.)

EJ has demonstrated high levels of proficiency at times. He has also displayed levels of inconsistency at even the fundamental aspects of quarterback play that raise serious questions about his ultimate ceiling as a QB. The frustrating part of these inconsistencies is that they are so very inconsistent and appear seemingly at random. For a coach trying to address these issues it must feel like a game of whack-a-mole; as soon as you resolve one deficiency, another that you thought you had fixed reappears. This suggests a quarterback who has not sufficiently mastered the fundamental aspects of the position to the point that they happen automatically.

If EJ is thinking about footwork, then mechanics go to hell. If he starts to think about mechanics and footwork, then he forgets to make a necessary pass protection check, etc. etc. While I do not know EJ on a personal level, I would feel very comfortable stating as fact that he is a very intelligent person and a very hard worker. Further, he has been coached by an excellent QB coach for five years. Given that there are no suspected issues with work ethic or lack of quality coaching, EJ's inconsistency presents a problem that I don't think can be waved away with the notion that Jimbo Fisher's coaching style didn't mesh with EJ. The question an NFL team has to answer for themselves when deciding where to draft EJ is whether he is simply a late bloomer who develops at a slower rate than others (certainly possible), or whether he has limited aptitude for the position.

For more, just Google Tim Tebow.

EJ is toast.

The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll stop sounding so clueless.

[Dr. Who]

Yeah, I want talented football players who can help my team win--if the hypothetical scenario presented itself, they would be exponential upgrades at their respective positions.

In the game of life I'm infinitely more successful than you, but I'm sure your good-guy routine will impress the menopausal militia here--which is your ultimate goal.


Success is a nebulous term. I am certain our criteria differs immensely.

I don't care who I impress or don't impress. I state what I believe and think, just as you do.

[cookie G]

It doesn't matter whether EJ has given up on himself.

It doesn't matter whether EJ absorbs every bit of leadership that Orton has.

You can't learn accuracy.

To quote Bill Murray from Meatballs:

"It just doesn't matter."

EJ will never be anything more than a stopgap backup in this league.

It depends what's causing the inaccuracy.

There was something he said in OTA's that was telling to me...

He said something like "we work so hard to set up plays, and guys work so hard to get open. At the last moment, I get this idea in my head not to screw up."

He's got the disease suffered by Rube in Major League 2, when he couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher.

"Rube, what do you think about when you throw the ball back to the pitcher?"
"I worry about screwing up and throwing the ball into centerfield"
"What do you think about when you throw the ball to 2nd base to throw out a runner"?
"Oh, there's no time to think, I just throw it"
"Beginning to understand?"

It seems to make sense to me, as some of his throws...were just so off...and should be easy throws.


But the second part of what you say, I totally agree with.

In the end, it doesn't matter. You can't have a starting QB that only connects on 3 of 10 throws to his WR's.

[Mr. Pink]

I love when people speak with complete confidence about something they truly have absolutely no idea about. The Bills aren't done with him Pink. I'd almost guarantee he starts another game for us at some point. Not saying he'll be markedly improved, just that he will start again. And it won't necessarily be because of injury.

Name some betting terms.

He'll never start another game, barring injury, as a Buffalo Bill.

[WagonCircler]

It depends what's causing the inaccuracy.

There was something he said in OTA's that was telling to me...

He said something like "we work so hard to set up plays, and guys work so hard to get open. At the last moment, I get this idea in my head not to screw up."

He's got the disease suffered by Rube in Major League 2, when he couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher.

"Rube, what do you think about when you throw the ball back to the pitcher?"
"I worry about screwing up and throwing the ball into centerfield"
"What do you think about when you throw the ball to 2nd base to throw out a runner"?
"Oh, there's no time to think, I just throw it"
"Beginning to understand?"

It seems to make sense to me, as some of his throws...were just so off...and should be easy throws.


But the second part of what you say, I totally agree with.

In the end, it doesn't matter. You can't have a starting QB that only connects on 3 of 10 throws to his WR's.

There was a highly promising pitcher for the Cardinals named Rick Ankiel. He got a bad case of "the yips" and started throwing the ball over the backstop on a regular basis. He never recovered and eventually became an outfielder.

Maybe a position change would be in order for EJ. But a location change would be better.

The problem with QBs and accuracy is exponentially harder than with Pitchers. Pitchers don't have 250-330 lb. men trying to decapitate them.

QB footwork can be improved, but only under perfect situations can it really help, i.e. when the QB is not being chased or off balance. EJ doesn't have a problem in drills.

But when the bullets are flying, there are just WAY too many things to think about. The mechanical part of the game--the footwork, the balance, the arm angle, the release, the last-instant snap of the wrist for torque, the yanking down of the non-throwing arm to get the shoulders and torso to rotate (these are just some of the elements of a proper delivery)--needs to be second nature by this level.

And that's before you add the reading and analysis of defensive schemes and matchups to the equation.

That's why the mechanics need to be embedded. They need to be something EJ doesn't have to even think about. And that's the problem. Those mechanics, by and large, are mastered in high school, then tweaked like a golf swing throughout a career.

And even with those automatic mechanics, there's still a huge God-given element to accuracy. Some have it, some don't. EJ has made it abundantly clear that he's in the "don't" column.

He just has too far to go. And to add even more to the huge challenge he faces, the type of full speed experience needed to improve can only come in live, regular season game play. The Bills concluded 4 games ago that they can't afford to serve as a facilitator of on the job training for EJ Manuel, especially when he was showing zero progress.

Listen, I get it. People want EJ to succeed for a couple of reasons. First, because they had such high hopes for him. Second, because he's a great kid. And third, because they invested all this equity arguing for him and defending him, and they don't want to admit how dead wrong they were.

But the reality of the situation is underscored by the team's play under Orton. This is a guy picked off the scrap heap. Plucked from his Lazy Boy. A guy with moderate talent, who now has the team fighting for a playoff spot.

This wouldn't have happened with EJ getting his on the job training. And it won't ever happen with EJ starting for this team.

[RedEyE]

It doesn't matter whether EJ has given up on himself.

It doesn't matter whether EJ absorbs every bit of leadership that Orton has.

You can't learn accuracy.

To quote Bill Murray from Meatballs:

"It just doesn't matter."

EJ will never be anything more than a stopgap backup in this league.

This isn't about your opinion or mine. Its about the Bills assesing the value of a young player. Doesn't matter if you like it or not, the kid will get another opportunity.

[Mr. Pink]

This isn't about your opinion or mine. Its about the Bills assesing the value of a young player. Doesn't matter if you like it or not, the kid will get another opportunity.

Why will he get another opportunity?

He's another guy like Akili Smith, Dan McGwire, Jim Druckenmiller, Cade McNown, Brandon Weeden, Matt Leinart, Brady Quinn, Kyle Boller, etc...

All over drafted bums who after they crapped the bed when they got an initial opportunity, never got another starting opportunity again.

EJ may hang around the league for another 3-5 years but he'll never amount to anything just like all those guys I listed.

[Typ0]

Losman did not have the mental strength and poise that Manual does. That is a huge difference. Manual was having trouble processing out there and that can change. He wasn't ready and was in over his head. Those things can change. We haven't really seen what he can do IMO.

[RedEyE]

Why will he get another opportunity?

He's another guy like Akili Smith, Dan McGwire, Jim Druckenmiller, Cade McNown, Brandon Weeden, Matt Leinart, Brady Quinn, Kyle Boller, etc...

All over drafted bums who after they crapped the bed when they got an initial opportunity, never got another starting opportunity again.

EJ may hang around the league for another 3-5 years but he'll never amount to anything just like all those guys I listed.

I've already stated in an earlier post.
Too many of the following:
Orton injury due to increased sack totals and porous line.
Orton not getting younger.
Bills understanding their Investment.
Post evaluation behind a sound veteran QB.
Lack of high picks in 2015
QB talent availability in FA and draft
EJ has all the intangibles but was drafted to be mentored based on rawness. The mentoring never materialised until now.
Still too young and inexperienced to pass long term judgement. Some QBs take time to develop. How long before Orton came around?
Whaley/Marrone/Hackett 1st round pick. As long as they remain EJ does as well until absolutely determined to not be NFL caliber.
Marrone a man of his word and pretty much stated as much.

[trapezeus]

ej, like orton is a likable guy. losman was a struggle to like.

i am not sure if he can or can not turn the corner. i hope he does when he's given his chance again.

what i do know is that he's essentially a .500 qb, and that by whaley's assessment is all he's looking for from a backup. so i suspect EJ is with us this year and next with no issue.

it really comes down to if i he is really doing the things he's saying. Accuracy aside, he plays like the game is fast for him. if he is able ot have it slow down, perhaps his accuracy becomes more reliable.

i think it's probably weighted against him since he has only had maybe 3 or 4 accurate games and about 10-12 inaccurate ones. but i really would like for him to get it, drew brees style.

[WagonCircler]

but i really would like for him to get it, drew brees style.

I get why you chose Drew Brees, because he got a second chance to start. But Drew Brees is one of the most accurate passers in NFL history. EJ has zero chance of ever becoming anything like Drew Brees.

[trapezeus]

I get why you chose Drew Brees, because he got a second chance to start. But Drew Brees is one of the most accurate passers in NFL history. EJ has zero chance of ever becoming anything like Drew Brees.

Brees wasn't statistically in his first 3 years. that third year he started to get it, but it was late and they drafted rivers. he bloomed the following year.

i don't disagree that ej looks wildly inaccurate, but i don't know enough about qb coaching on if that can be fixed if the game slows down for an athlete. everything else from calm demeanor to being a hard worker is there for EJ. in the games he's struggled, he's just looked like he was in over his head.

i don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he can't get better, but we know he isn't the QB for the bills current quest this year. but i do think we'll see him again at some point this year.

[WagonCircler]

everything else from calm demeanor

I think we learned from Trent Edwards that cluelessness can be mistaken for a calm demeanor.

Brees was in the wrong Offense and in a bad situation in San Diego. But he wasn't missing guys by twenty yards, or getting his receivers hurt by stretching them out. His problems were completely different than EJs, and as such, were solvable. EJ's are not.

And I do think it's a foregone conclusion. Not just by me, but by the league.

[djjimkelly]

what i dont get is why some people cant differentiate that its ok to love orton and pray for current success and at the same time its ok to HOPE that EJ and all of his good and bad tools will pay dividends one day (maybe EJ never gets the chance to start here again becuz orton is killing it)

according to a couple fan bases that watched him full time, im sure orton is trash in their heads....... but for now hes the man here and doing a hell of a job.

[better days]

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/4/25/4264734/nfl-draft-2013-ej-manuel-next-level-florida-state

In order to make any kind of assessment of EJ Manuel's pro prospects, there has to be a clear understanding of where he is as a quarterback at the end of his college career. In all the attributes that one would look for in a potential NFL quarterback (footwork, mechanics, accuracy, ability to read a defense, pocket movement/escapability, running ability, etc. etc.)

EJ has demonstrated high levels of proficiency at times. He has also displayed levels of inconsistency at even the fundamental aspects of quarterback play that raise serious questions about his ultimate ceiling as a QB. The frustrating part of these inconsistencies is that they are so very inconsistent and appear seemingly at random. For a coach trying to address these issues it must feel like a game of whack-a-mole; as soon as you resolve one deficiency, another that you thought you had fixed reappears. This suggests a quarterback who has not sufficiently mastered the fundamental aspects of the position to the point that they happen automatically.

If EJ is thinking about footwork, then mechanics go to hell. If he starts to think about mechanics and footwork, then he forgets to make a necessary pass protection check, etc. etc. While I do not know EJ on a personal level, I would feel very comfortable stating as fact that he is a very intelligent person and a very hard worker. Further, he has been coached by an excellent QB coach for five years. Given that there are no suspected issues with work ethic or lack of quality coaching, EJ's inconsistency presents a problem that I don't think can be waved away with the notion that Jimbo Fisher's coaching style didn't mesh with EJ. The question an NFL team has to answer for themselves when deciding where to draft EJ is whether he is simply a late bloomer who develops at a slower rate than others (certainly possible), or whether he has limited aptitude for the position.

For more, just Google Tim Tebow.

EJ is toast.

The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll stop sounding so clueless.

In the first place, nowhere in that article does it say a QB can not become more accurate.

In the 2nd place, the writer, Bud Elliott is not a QB "EXPERT".

Link an article written by a bona fide NFL "EXPERT" that says accuracy can not be learned or improved.

[Dr. Who]

EJ Manuel building trust into his game

Posted 5 hours ago

Chris Brown Bills Insider Email @ChrisBrownBills Blog: Inside the Bills

Manuel immersed himself in the playbook this past offseason. He knows plays like the back of his hand. Pre-snap checks, package play options and finding the mismatch were all things he had a firm grasp of heading into training camp. Even his reads of coverages post-snap were improving. His main issue was trusting what he was seeing in his read and pulling the trigger on time.

In not consistently trusting his own eyes there was hesitation and that hesitation led to a disruption in the timing of the passing game, thereby making it more difficult to connect on throws with his intended receivers. In fact Downing believes Manuel’s completion percentage of 58 percent can be directly tied to that issue.

“People have a big misconception about accuracy for quarterbacks. People think that because a quarterback is accurate it’s because he has great aim with the football. It’s not aim,” said Downing. “There are some throws where you need great aim, but most of the time accuracy comes from being on time and throwing it to the right spot in the read. In other words a quarterback who is real accurate on boundary throws operates in his play action drop efficiently and gets the ball out on time so he’s able to throw the receiver to the sideline and it’s a catch and a toe tap.

“A quarterback that might be perceived as having bad accuracy might just have bad timing. He hangs too long at the top of his drop and now all of a sudden that out route breaks and by the time he looks to throw the ball is back behind the receiver’s shoulder.

“The things that we’re able to do with EJ is see when he’s efficient in his drop and at the top he hitches and lets the ball go confidently it’s going to wind up where he wants it because he has the arm talent to get it there. EJ needs to hear that over and over again. He’s got all the ability in the world to get it done he just needs to piece it all together.”

[swiper]

Dear Dr. Clueless:

Downing is horrid.

Manuel is a lost cause.

[Don't Panic]

Name some betting terms.

He'll never start another game, barring injury, as a Buffalo Bill.

I'd say he will, but it very well could be because of injury. How about this... if he doesn't at all, you win. If he does without it being by injury, I win. If he does by injury, its a push. Want to make one of Squish's Chinese jerseys the wager, or are you thinking more for fun here? If you are, 10,000 ZBs works.

[Dr. Who]

Not so dear Swiper:

Would you honestly rather be wrong about EJ or vindicated in your pessimism?

[Yasgur's Farm]

I get why you chose Drew Brees, because he got a second chance to start. But Drew Brees is one of the most accurate passers in NFL history. EJ has zero chance of ever becoming anything like Drew Brees.
Drew Brees' 1st 28 games...
59.4% - 6.17 yards/attempt - 29 TD's (3.19%) - 31 INT's (3.41%) - 8 fumbles - 73.74 passer rating

EJ's 1st 14 games...
58.6% - 6.43 yards/attempt - 16 TD's (3.66) - 12 INT's (2.75) - 4 fumbles - 78.46 passer rating

Point is... The Drew Brees comparison is valid.. And even the mighty Drew Brees took 3 seasons before the game slowed down for him in his 4th season.

[WagonCircler]

Drew Brees' 1st 28 games...
59.4% - 6.17 yards/attempt - 29 TD's (3.19%) - 31 INT's (3.41%) - 8 fumbles - 73.74 passer rating

EJ's 1st 14 games...
58.6% - 6.43 yards/attempt - 16 TD's (3.66) - 12 INT's (2.75) - 4 fumbles - 78.46 passer rating

Point is... The Drew Brees comparison is valid.. And even the mighty Drew Brees took 3 seasons before the game slowed down for him in his 4th season.

No, it's not.

Your logic makes the false assumption that all QBs fail or underperform for the same reasons.

They don't.

Brees was held back in San Diego because the system wasn't right for him, and yes, his adjustment to the speed of the game took a while. But he didn't fail due to inaccuracy.

EJ's problems are completely different. He misses wide open receivers by ten yards. And it's not just when he's under pressure. At the end of last season has was rated the least accurate passer in the NFL.

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2013/12/03/analytics-site-shows-ej-manuel-is-nfls-least-accurate-passer/

His accuracy problems are not going away.

And if you think that EJ is going to turn into Drew Brees just because they both had a slow start to their careers, you're out of your fahking mind.

Face it. Your boy is toast.

[Yasgur's Farm]

And if you think that EJ is going to turn into Drew Brees just because they both had a slow start to their careers, you're out of your fahking mind.Your argument has some valid points to consider... As does the opposing argument.

But this technique of putting words in peoples mouths is childish... And simple deflection.

NOBODY here has said that EJ will achieve greatness. But using examples of similar starts of players who have achieved greatness is a valid point.

[Mr. Pink]

I'd say he will, but it very well could be because of injury. How about this... if he doesn't at all, you win. If he does without it being by injury, I win. If he does by injury, its a push. Want to make one of Squish's Chinese jerseys the wager, or are you thinking more for fun here? If you are, 10,000 ZBs works.

Fun is good since this is just the internets. 10k ZBs is fine.

He starts because of injury push, he doesn't start I win, he starts by being given the job next year somehow, you win.

[starrymessenger]

Unfortunately EJ is living a real life Greek tragedy.
The tragic hero is a guy whose got it all together except for one fatal flaw that winds up being his undoing.
EJ has everything you'd want in a NFL QB.
Everything except the brain of a quarterback.
Not that he's stupid. I'm sure he's very intelligent and capable of fathoming a playbook.
His problem is that when it comes to execution he cannot process information quickly enuf in real time.
And the gap is not a crack, it's a chasm (even tho it may be measured in a second or less). That's why the game is very likely never going to slow down enuf for him to be successful.

[swiper]

Not so dear Swiper:

Would you honestly rather be wrong about EJ or vindicated in your pessimism?

I won't be wrong about EJ. You mistake pessimism for being right on target, because you are so blind to the reality of the issue.

[swiper]

LMAO off at poster's comparing EJ Manuel to Drew Brees. Do you actually watch football?

[sudzy]

I was really hoping that when EJ butt hit the bench, we had moved past this. The "EJ apologists" only took a little break and now their back, more irrational then ever.

[Dr. Who]

I won't be wrong about EJ. You mistake pessimism for being right on target, because you are so blind to the reality of the issue.

I have no certitude at all that EJ will develop into a good qb. I don't think hoping he might is irrational. If you want to call that blindness, have fun with that.

I would definitely want to bring in another young qb next year, assuming some quality o-lineman (Mike Iupati, for example) are brought in through free agency.
I personally like Patrick Towles (Kentucky) and Shane Carden (ECU). So, I am not singularly invested in EJ, but he is likeable and hard-working and I prefer to root for him.
I fail to see how doing so should invite rudeness and insults.

[starrymessenger]

LMAO off at poster's comparing EJ Manuel to Drew Brees. Do you actually watch football?

One way to compare them is to ask yourself the question: " How much extra time between the snap and when the ball leaves his hand would EJ need to be in the same place as Drew Brees relative to making the same (usually good) decisions"?

My guess is 3-4 seconds.

[Dr. Who]

I was really hoping that when EJ butt hit the bench, we had moved past this. The "EJ apologists" only took a little break and now their back, more irrational then ever.

Such as this.

- - - Updated - - -


One way to compare them is to ask yourself the question: " How much extra time between the snap and when the ball leaves his hand would EJ need to be in the same place as Drew Brees relative to making the same (usually good) decisions"?

My guess is 3-4 seconds.

I hope that is hyperbole.

[starrymessenger]

Such as this.

- - - Updated - - -



I hope that is hyperbole.

No Dr. Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance but 3-4 seconds is the impression I have of what it would take to put EJ in the same place as a top shelf QB and execute at that level, or what it would take to translate what he can do in shorts on a practice field to what he needs to do on a NFL playing field on Sundays. That's why I'm skeptical of his chances. That's not a gap that can be closed IMO.

[Dr. Who]

Well, no, if that were accurate, you never close that gap.

[starrymessenger]

Well, no, if that were accurate, you never close that gap.
Well you know probably two secs is still to long. Anyway, therein lies the problem IMO.
So if when next up he comes out with guns blazing and letting her rip I'd be afraid he'd become the NFL's greatest turnover machine.

[Mr. Pink]

LMAO off at poster's comparing EJ Manuel to Drew Brees. Do you actually watch football?

EJ = Akili Smith

Same skill set, same looking game on the field.

And it has nothing to do with color before someone brings that up.

[Dr. Who]

Well you know probably two secs is still to long. Anyway, therein lies the problem IMO.
So if when next up he comes out with guns blazing and letting her rip I'd be afraid he'd become the NFL's greatest turnover machine.

His only chance is to make quick decisions and see if it works out.
If he is making the right reads and just doesn't trust himself, he could surprise.

[JoeMama]

At the risk of being labeled an "EJ apologist" by a chosen few here, I like what I'm hearing him say in this very good article.

If EJ somehow comes out the other end of this as a leader, the Bills (and Bills fans) will be the beneficiary.

Kyle Orton can end up having a profound effect on this franchise in more ways than 1.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/10/28/7079115/geno-smith-jets-michael-vick-kyle-orton-bills

Manuel added: "People may see what he is doing on the field right now but they don't see his approach. The way he speaks to the offensive coordinator (Nathaniel Hackett), the way he talks to everybody in the quarterback room, the way he talks to all of the offensive players. He lets you know what he expects. No, he demands it. It has become a collective thing. Kyle will go through all of the plays with the coaches during the week and be very clear about 'I like that' or 'I don't like that.' I'm watching. I'm learning. Every practice. Every play in every game. I'm always prepared if my number is called. But I am definitely learning how to do some things by watching him.''


Good, I hope EJ is soaking in everything he can and taking it to heart.

Sounds like Kyle Orton is a field commander out there. Staying engaged with his teammates. Setting expectations and demanding performance from his teammates. Telling Nathaniel Hackett which plays he's willing to roll with and which plays he thinks are ****.

Kyle Orton = **** Yeah!

Glad EJ is taking notes. Orton's got the mindset of a grizzled veteran.

[swiper]

I have no certitude at all that EJ will develop into a good qb. I don't think hoping he might is irrational. If you want to call that blindness, have fun with that.

I would definitely want to bring in another young qb next year, assuming some quality o-lineman (Mike Iupati, for example) are brought in through free agency.
I personally like Patrick Towles (Kentucky) and Shane Carden (ECU). So, I am not singularly invested in EJ, but he is likeable and hard-working and I prefer to root for him.
I fail to see how doing so should invite rudeness and insults.

You mentioning Iaputi makes me think you are coastal. Iaputi will command Levitre-type money. I really hope Cyril Richardson or Kuoandijo can turn into something solid in year 2. It cannot be that hard to get two reliable guards. Or can it?

[swiper]

One way to compare them is to ask yourself the question: " How much extra time between the snap and when the ball leaves his hand would EJ need to be in the same place as Drew Brees relative to making the same (usually good) decisions"?

My guess is 3-4 seconds.

It is much more than that. It is scanning the field, reading defenses, and being aware of what is going on around you (ie charging defenders). Brees has those qualities. Manuel does not. Then there's accuracy, ability to adapt as a play falls apart, footwork, and, yes, release. The two QBs are not similar.

[YardRat]

From a 2004 pre-game scouting report...

2. Hot or cold Brees: After playing so well in the season-opening win at Houston, Chargers quarterback Drew Brees regressed last week against the Jets, <nobr>completing (http://www.utsandiego.com/sports/chargers/20040926-1139-watch.html#)</nobr> only two of his first 10 passes and committing three turnovers. Take away a 59-yard screen pass to Tomlinson and he accounted for fewer than 100 yards. In his only game at Denver, in 2002, he passed for 36 yards in the first half as the Chargers fell behind 19-0.

[swiper]

LOL. And Rob Johnson played a great game that made the Bills go out and get him too.

[starrymessenger]

It is much more than that. It is scanning the field, reading defenses, and being aware of what is going on around you (ie charging defenders). Brees has those qualities. Manuel does not. Then there's accuracy, ability to adapt as a play falls apart, footwork, and, yes, release. The two QBs are not similar.

The extra time is what I'm saying he needs to do all the things you have mentioned.
i wasn't referring to his release, rather the time needed between the snap and the release to go through progressions and make the right reads etc...
Give him worlds of time and I think he could do those things. He's not cognitively impaired, he just doesn't have the gift of processing information at the rate that top shelf QBs do. It's a rare quality.

[HHURRICANE]

EJ is not an NFL starting QB.....

That's just a fact. I like his attitude and he certainly has some leadership qualities which is better than many of the QBs we've had rolling in here...... but he's a backup.

[Dr. Who]

You mentioning Iaputi makes me think you are coastal. Iaputi will command Levitre-type money. I really hope Cyril Richardson or Kuoandijo can turn into something solid in year 2. It cannot be that hard to get two reliable guards. Or can it?

I would spend money for an elite guard. I am also hoping that Richardson or CK develop. A really good o-line would exponentially improve the offense. Look at the Cowboys.
I remember reading some scouting report about CK that basically said he would need to be treated like a redshirt, but if a team was willing to wait, he could be a good player.
At this point, all one can do is hope it is true.

It would be a really weird schizophrenia if I was coastal.