EJ Working on Accuracy

[casdhf]

Maybe he will get it?

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/EJ-Manuel-building-trust-into-his-game/87ea5dec-2434-4474-ad00-363b22f289a1?campaign=fb_buf_article

[Typ0]

Extra work after he was benched?

[Night Train]

He discovered he's left handed.

[BillsOverDolphins]

It helps to think of him as just a bad dream

[JoeMama]

Good news.

EJ probably had to start by looking up accuracy in the dictionary.

"Oh, so that's what THAT is!"

Baby steps.

[better days]

Orton thinks EJ will be a great QB in time.

I will trust his judgement over those on this board that think he can never improve.

[TacklingDummy]

Never be accurate.
Either a QB has it or they don't.
Its not something that can be taught.

[Mr. Pink]

Orton thinks EJ will be a great QB in time.

I will trust his judgement over those on this board that think he can never improve.

What is Orton supposed to say?

"No, EJ blows"

Why do some people never seem to figure out that players don't publicly out their own teammates?

[YardRat]

Never be accurate.
Either a QB has it or they don't.
Its not something that can be taught.

That's ignorant and you know it. If you don't know it, well then, that's just ignorant too I guess.

[Mr. Pink]

That's ignorant and you know it. If you don't know it, well then, that's just ignorant too I guess.

The fact that all these "coachable" problems EJ has are the same problems he had in FSU and nothing has changed makes it pretty ignorant to think he's gonna change now.

[The Doc]

Orton thinks EJ will be a great QB in time.

I will trust his judgement over those on this board that think he can never improve.

Oh really? Oroton didn't say EJ is the epic bust we all know him to be...shocking.

[streetkings01]

Wasn't he working on his accuracy and footwork all offseason? Still looked terrible.......kid was average at FSU and is below average in the pros.

[chris66]

So is Tim tebow

[WagonCircler]

Orton thinks EJ will be a great QB in time.

I will trust his judgement over those on this board that think he can never improve.

Riiiight.

Because there's zero chance that Orton's just being polite.

[WagonCircler]

That's ignorant and you know it. If you don't know it, well then, that's just ignorant too I guess.

It's not ignorant.

Accuracy is like speed. You can't teach it.

You can improve it incrementally, but it's a natural talent. You can't "gain" it.

[YardRat]

The fact that all these "coachable" problems EJ has are the same problems he had in FSU and nothing has changed makes it pretty ignorant to think he's gonna change now.

Whether or not EJ specifically will ever improve his accuracy is not relevant...it's a learned skill, not a physical trait.


It's not ignorant.

Accuracy is like speed. You can't teach it.

You can improve it incrementally, but it's a natural talent. You can't "gain" it.

Bull****. You might want to enlighten the tens of millions of professional and amateur athletes that have ever attempted any exercise in which accuracy is required that they are wasting their time working on improving, then. This isn't height, or hand size, or the length of your dick...it's a skill, that can be learned, can be taught, and can be improved to a point of proficiency.

[Lone Stranger]

Makes me wonder what he's been doing the past 10 years or so.

[trapezeus]

there is something to be said about working on that stuff diligently without worrying about the in's and outs of a game plan installation. the more he makes that stuff second nature, he has a chance to take what he's learning and just play well.

i don't know why people want him to fail. we've lucked our way into a possible situation where we can actually groom a QB. and we can still select other Qb's to push him and/or unseat him.

This is the best of situations aside from EJ just taking off and becoming a star this year. we have a servicable QB right now, ej, if he's doing what he's supposed to, is getting better, and will have a chance to prove himself at somepoint this season. If he doesn't, then pick another qb and let them battle it out in camp.

the other option is to have EJ flame out this year as the starter, and then have to pick a high pick again with no stop gap. That was distinctly a possibility at the start of the season.

[Meathead]

besides if ej is successful its never going to be bc hes very accurate. he needs to improve there but his game long term would always been running around making stuff happen as much as standing back and slinging it. he needs to get better but he doesnt need to throw lasers to be effective

[Meathead]

odds are that hes gonna get an extended look again sometime over the next two seasons. its entirely possible he looks like a different guy. or maybe not. thats the point, its nowhere near a known result yet with him. so yeah i hope Elazar Jabeen works his ass off and does his best to take advantage when the time comes

[WagonCircler]

Bull****. You might want to enlighten the tens of millions of professional and amateur athletes that have ever attempted any exercise in which accuracy is required that they are wasting their time working on improving, then. This isn't height, or hand size, or the length of your dick...it's a skill, that can be learned, can be taught, and can be improved to a point of proficiency.

It can only be improved fractionally, and for most athletes, it's well worth the effort. But when you are so incredibly poor in terms of accuracy (or speed--the analogy still holds up) you stand no chance of improving to replacement level.

This isn't height or hand size, but it's obviously hand-eye coordination or depth perception or poor muscle memory, or likely a combination of all of these and more. And this is made all the more clear by the fact that he has struggled with the exact same problems since he was a freshman in college, and has made little or no progress in remedy them.

[WagonCircler]

i don't know why people want him to fail. we've lucked our way into a possible situation where we can actually groom a QB. and we can still select other Qb's to push him and/or unseat him..

You don't get it.

It's not that people want him to fail. It's just that we can see he's a lost cause and we don't want even one more snap wasted on him when it's clear that the Bills need to resume the search for a long range solution at QB.

Orion's eye-opening play has made the situation less urgent, but there's no telling when he could turn back into a pumpkin.

The Bills need to find a ten-year franchise QB at some point and it's glaringly obvious that EJ Manuel isn't that guy.

[YardRat]

It can only be improved fractionally, and for most athletes, it's well worth the effort. But when you are so incredibly poor in terms of accuracy (or speed--the analogy still holds up) you stand no chance of improving to replacement level.

This isn't height or hand size, but it's obviously hand-eye coordination or depth perception or poor muscle memory, or likely a combination of all of these and more. And this is made all the more clear by the fact that he has struggled with the exact same problems since he was a freshman in college, and has made little or no progress in remedy them.

All can be improved, with practice and repetition. Ask any golfer.

[WagonCircler]

All can be improved, with practice and repetition. Ask any golfer.

So you're saying that if you or I practice enough, we could be on the PGA Tour?

Horse*****.

You've made my point for me.

We might wrest the club championship trophy from Judge Smails or Ty Webb, but practice is not enough.

By your logic, we should be able to turn Orton into a guy who can run like Michael Vick, right? All it takes is practice.

[Mr. Pink]

Whether or not EJ specifically will ever improve his accuracy is not relevant...it's a learned skill, not a physical trait.



I'm not one saying he cannot improve because being accurate is something you have or don't have. To an extent it is, no matter the improvement he won't have the pinpoint accuracy of say Peyton Manning but he could get better than a guy who'd have issues hitting sand falling off of a camel through practice and diligence.

Problem is, he had these problems early on at FSU, and they're the same problems he has now. At some point you just have to throw your hands in the air and realize he's either uncoachable because he can't be coached or because he doesn't simply care/want to be coached.

[BertSquirtgum]

EJ stinks. It's all but a memory now.

[stuckincincy]

All can be improved, with practice and repetition. Ask any golfer.

Bad example. You can play for 40 years, and still carry a lousy handicap, even with the equipment improvements (drivers with the size of a grape fruit).

I've seen folks starting out pound drives with a starter set, and sink putts with ease. They have the coordination and the eye that I've never had from the git go and will never have.

Same with qbs.

[BertSquirtgum]

Wait just a minute!!! I said EJ sucks before the season started and you called me a troll for saying that!Glad your finally learning something.

No.

[jills]

No matter how hard you try to polish a turd it's still a turd. Some people are in denial when it comes to this bust.

[swiper]

Maybe he will get it?

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/EJ-Manuel-building-trust-into-his-game/87ea5dec-2434-4474-ad00-363b22f289a1?campaign=fb_buf_article


ROFLMAO. This is a golden example of "polishing a turd."

[swiper]

All can be improved, with practice and repetition. Ask any golfer.

Stupidest thing ever posted.

[YardRat]

So you're saying that if you or I practice enough, we could be on the PGA Tour?

Horse*****.

You've made my point for me.

We might wrest the club championship trophy from Judge Smails or Ty Webb, but practice is not enough.

By your logic, we should be able to turn Orton into a guy who can run like Michael Vick, right? All it takes is practice.

Without actual physical limitations, if you worked at it as hard as most of those do you'd certainly have a better shot and be able to at least compete for a spot. You act as if professional athletes obtain their status as a birthright, and it is destiny. It isn't...success comes from hard work and practice, and the skills can be learned. Running ability is completely irrelevant, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

[YardRat]

Bad example. You can play for 40 years, and still carry a lousy handicap, even with the equipment improvements (drivers with the size of a grape fruit).

I've seen folks starting out pound drives with a starter set, and sink putts with ease. They have the coordination and the eye that I've never had from the git go and will never have.

Same with qbs.

Casual hackers don't really qualify. People aren't born scratch golfers, or QB's.

[TacklingDummy]

shaquille o'neal still sucked at making free throws and he 11,252 attempts in the NBA regular season. Not including high school, college, post season.

[better days]

besides if ej is successful its never going to be bc hes very accurate. he needs to improve there but his game long term would always been running around making stuff happen as much as standing back and slinging it. he needs to get better but he doesnt need to throw lasers to be effective

Exactly. So EJ will never be Peyton Manning.

With all the attributes EJ has including his mobility, he just needs to improve his accuracy a little to be successful.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Pro golfers work on their accuracy every day. It's called the driving range.

If talent was all that was required, they'd shoot 20 under every week. But they don't'

Pro golf is full of stories of guys who worked for YEARS before getting it. Ben Hogan called it "digging it out of the dirt".

Anyone that thinkis you can get better without practicing is a fool.

[starrymessenger]

All can be improved, with practice and repetition. Ask any golfer.

With all due respect, golfers aren't being pursued by enormous men with homicidal intentions, at least not that I've noticed.
Even though they may present as mechanical flaws, leading some to conclude that they can be corrected with practice and repetition, for me EJs accuracy issues are ultimately not really related to a deficiency in his physical skillset.
EJs issues have nothing to do with what's below the shoulders. The problem is 100 % above the shoulders.
And it's not that he is cognitively impaired. I'm sure he knows and understands exactly what it is he needs to do.
The problem is that for all his athletic prowess his brain does not process information quickly enuf to enable him to settle into the right mechanics that would improve his accuracy. Nothing new here, it's probably the main reason why athletic QB prospects wind up failing when they do.
I doubt that is something that can be corrected by "learning" while on the bench (or by continuing to play).
Whether you identify the source as mental or physiological/neurological doesn't matter. Having a bad case of it, barring a miracle recovery, is always fatal.

[starrymessenger]

Exactly. So EJ will never be Peyton Manning.

With all the attributes EJ has including his mobility, he just needs to improve his accuracy a little to be successful.

Why is Carolina trying to turn the poster child for that kind of QB into a pocket passer first?
Could it have something to do with the nature and requirements of the pro game?

[trapezeus]

i'm not saying EJ is going to be peyton manning, but he could be significantly better than he is. and why wouldn't we root this on?

the bills still don't have a solution whether orton plays well or not. and a new qb should be drafted to keep the position getting better.

[starrymessenger]

i'm not saying EJ is going to be peyton manning, but he could be significantly better than he is. and why wouldn't we root this on?

the bills still don't have a solution whether orton plays well or not. and a new qb should be drafted to keep the position getting better.

Fully agree that it's all about finding the next guy up, hopefully a long term franchise type guy.
But a team only has so much available to it in the way of resources to try to address that need.
Question then is whether EJ represents your best bet, bearing in mind that whatever you do will cost you dearly if you fail.

[WagonCircler]

Anyone that thinkis you can get better without practicing is a fool.

As usual, you have it backwards.

You need talent AND practice. But all the practice in the world won't make you great if you don't have the talent. And EJ does not have the gift of accuracy. He is starting at such a deficit that if he improved 900%, he would still just be average.

[djjimkelly]

Bad example. You can play for 40 years, and still carry a lousy handicap, even with the equipment improvements (drivers with the size of a grape fruit).

I've seen folks starting out pound drives with a starter set, and sink putts with ease. They have the coordination and the eye that I've never had from the git go and will never have.

Same with qbs.

whoa that is non sense ill agree if we are talking about an average chumo with no athletic ability playing golf, i took up golf not long ago and have drastically improved from shooting high 90s into mid to low 80s simple coordinated person gets practice they get better. god help if i could play 100 rounds a year instead of 10.

ej is athletic enough most golfers are people who have solid jobs and were the uncoordinated in gym class horrific example


your either fluid or not

[ghz in pittsburgh]

EJ is a different kind of QB even if he becomes competent - http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/14854/bills-have-improved-in-key-areas-under-kyle-orton

If I have to guess, assuming EJ pans out eventually, on areas where he's far behind Orton:
1. Fourth Quarter QBR - I actually think with experience EJ should improve (figuring out what D is doing etc.). 2. deep passes - not sure EJ will ever be as good as Orton. 3. 3rd down efficiency - an area I think EJ can be better than Orton with time simply because of his physical ability to run when he matures more and knows when to use it.

On areas where EJ is better than Orton (statistically right now):
1. under pressure -- I feel strongly that EJ will do better, probably one of the main reason they drafted him over Geno and others. He's not rattled as much and has the physical ability to minimize damage while not turning the ball over (sack fumbles, INTs). 2. play action - I think Orton will be better if the running game takes hold; it is one of the strong area throughout his career. Even if EJ has a strong running game support, I feel Orton will make more completions, bigger yards in play action plays. 3. Zone-read runs - no contest. There is no such element in Orton's game, but the most successful EJ's game.

[sukie]

This whole "you either have it or you don't" sounds silly. is throwing a football accurately a skill that can never be learned?

How about accuracy in archery or target shooting? How about baseball pitching? Golf? any of these sports that require accuracy are only bested by people "born with it"?

I think it is an attitude, confidence thing. watching Brady approach the line... there is a look in his eyes in that he KNOWS what he's gonna do and the D doesn't matter... They have to stop him.

Any young QB without that confinence approaches the line with a I hope this works attitude.

[justasportsfan]

he should work on having the balls to throw in tight spaces.

I doubt he throws that TD Orton threw to Woods.
I doubt he throws that throw Orton threw to Chandler on 4th and 20.
I doubt he throws that TD Orton threw to Chandler.
I doubt EJ throws that TD Orton threw to Hogan.

Manuel won't throw to single coverage. He needs to see them open before he throws.
When he makes tentative throws, the ball takes forever to get there and his receivers are in danger of getting killed.

[starrymessenger]

This whole "you either have it or you don't" sounds silly. is throwing a football accurately a skill that can never be learned?

How about accuracy in archery or target shooting? How about baseball pitching? Golf? any of these sports that require accuracy are only bested by people "born with it"?

I think it is an attitude, confidence thing. watching Brady approach the line... there is a look in his eyes in that he KNOWS what he's gonna do and the D doesn't matter... They have to stop him.

Any young QB without that confinence approaches the line with a I hope this works attitude.

How about hitting a baseball (instead of throwing one).
I played a lot of baseball growing up and into my early 30s.
Good glove/no hit.
At first it puzzled me why guys who (I thought) were not as good athletes as me were so much better swinging the bat, even after many, many hours in the batting cage working on "mechanics". Never having been a complete player at the level I played is a disappointment to me to this day.
Eventually I understood the reason. It's really mostly about how well you see the ball. Rod Carew used to say that it looked to him like a grapefruit to him. Well it was always an aspirin to me. If I had seen the ball well, my mechanics would have been better, even if you always have to practice them to stay sharp.
So with EJ I think it's a matter of vision and therefore of reading and reacting on a timely basis in real time with the bullets flying. Like me, I think it's just a missing piece of the puzzle and I don't know where you go to find that.

[WagonCircler]

This whole "you either have it or you don't" sounds silly. is throwing a football accurately a skill that can never be learned?

How about accuracy in archery or target shooting? How about baseball pitching? Golf? any of these sports that require accuracy are only bested by people "born with it"?.

Absolutely! The difference between pitchers and QBs though, is that QBs have to juggle a ton of things that pitchers don't. There's a name for pitchers with no accuracy. They call them "Outfielders".

The reason some QBs make it to a certain level is that they can get by in college without being accurate to a certain level, just like EJ did. Among the qualities that can prompt success at the college level are mobility, and having superior athletes at skill positions, such as WRs for FSU who get ridiculous separation on DBs who play for East Carolina. Also, a dumbed down, Pop Warner level Offense, which requires little of a QB, can help.

The problem is, when a QB gets to the NFL, he has to be good at everything. He has to have perfect mechanics without thinking about them, because if he has to think too much about mechanics, he's not thinking about/analyzing Defensive schemes, adjusting to coverage and blitzes, etc. And the athletes on Defense are just as good as the athletes on your Offense.

Therefore, accurate QBs, like Brady, Manning and Brees, excel at their positions, because they start out with a huge advantage in natural talent, then work hard to perfect it, so they don't have to think about it.

EJ has to devote so much energy trying to get his mechanics right, that's all he's able to do, and he still fails miserably at throwing the ball accurately.

Some human beings just have better depth perception, hand-eye coordination and timing. Those are the people who excel at hitting baseballs and hockey pucks and golf balls. People don't all start out at the same level, then work hard to build from ground zero. Some people just have a natural advantage in the talent and skill needed to do things like throw accurately when superhuman 275 lb. men are trying to decapitate them.

If you take the kid in school who's always picked first for every sport, and the spa kid who's always picked last (not saying that's who EJ is) and they both work equally hard for 15 years at throwing a ball accurately, guess who's going to come out ahead? The kid with more natural talent.

If EJ is thinking about footwork, then mechanics go to hell. If he starts to think about mechanics and footwork, then he forgets to make a necessary pass protection check, etc. etc. While I do not know EJ on a personal level, I would feel very comfortable stating as fact that he is a very intelligent person and a very hard worker. Further, he has been coached by an excellent QB coach for five years. Given that there are no suspected issues with work ethic or lack of quality coaching, EJ's inconsistency presents a problem that I don't think can be waved away with the notion that Jimbo Fisher's coaching style didn't mesh with EJ. The question an NFL team has to answer for themselves when deciding where to draft EJ is whether he is simply a late bloomer who develops at a slower rate than others (certainly possible), or whether he has limited aptitude for the position.

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/4/25/4264734/nfl-draft-2013-ej-manuel-next-level-florida-state

By the logic of "you just have to work harder" you're saying that everyone has the same aptitude for the position. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It takes natural talent AND hard work/practice.

EJ lacks the fundamental skill to become a great passer, or even a good passer.

He's exactly the same guy as Trent Edwards, just more athletic.

[Fletch]

Maybe he will get it?

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/EJ-Manuel-building-trust-into-his-game/87ea5dec-2434-4474-ad00-363b22f289a1?campaign=fb_buf_article

The coaches worked with him for two years on his accuracy at FSU.

Haven't those thinking he may come around learned anything by now.

It's time to move on from Manuel, fire Whaley, and let the Pegula era begin anew without any coaches or front office personnel that have been here or that have ties to NYS colleges or the Steelers.

[bdutton]

This whole "you either have it or you don't" sounds silly. is throwing a football accurately a skill that can never be learned?

How about accuracy in archery or target shooting? How about baseball pitching? Golf? any of these sports that require accuracy are only bested by people "born with it"?


As a target shooter let me say this. Yes. No. Maybe.

I achieved a high level by practicing a lot... training is a better word. Becoming a student of the game and eventually its master. However, I have seen some people who reach my level and beyond much faster or much slower/never. So talent is a part of it. But most people, with decent level of talent, can reach very high levels.

EJ has already reached the highest level. Now it may take a lot of work, training and studying to further improve his throwing skill to be a consistent and worthy starter in the NFL. Whether it takes 6 months or 10 years to get to that next level is up to him, and the patience of the coaches and team management.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I don't know how this became a referendum on whether someone can get better by practicing. Of course you can, the issue is that he's already in the NFL. He's on a clock here. We can't afford to carry him for years and years waiting to see if he figures it out. He's under contract for two, potentially three more years pending the 1st rounder team option. If he doesn't show significant improvement in the next two seasons, he's not getting a second deal from us.

[WagonCircler]

As a target shooter let me say this. Yes. No. Maybe.

I achieved a high level by practicing a lot... training is a better word. Becoming a student of the game and eventually its master. However, I have seen some people who reach my level and beyond much faster or much slower/never. So talent is a part of it. But most people, with decent level of talent, can reach very high levels.

EJ has already reached the highest level. Now it may take a lot of work, training and studying to further improve his throwing skill to be a consistent and worthy starter in the NFL. Whether it takes 6 months or 10 years to get to that next level is up to him, and the patience of the coaches and team management.

The thing is, EJ hasn't proven that he can succeed at the highest level. And this year, when he was supposed to have worked so hard and improved so much, he was an abysmal failure. I'd say he regressed.

And on top of it all, one of his big plusses coming out of FSU was his running ability. He looked pedestrian at best in that department, and when you add 3 knee injuries in one season to the accuracy problem, you have major red flags.

He's been trying to fix the same flaws since college. Probably since high school. And he's made little or no progress.

[better days]

The coaches worked with him for two years on his accuracy at FSU.

Haven't those thinking he may come around learned anything by now.

It's time to move on from Manuel, fire Whaley, and let the Pegula era begin anew without any coaches or front office personnel that have been here or that have ties to NYS colleges or the Steelers.

Well just maybe the QB coaches at FSU are worth SH-T.

If they were REALLY good they would be in the NFL.

[better days]

Riiiight.

Because there's zero chance that Orton's just being polite.

Orton could have said, EJ has time to learn & develop.

That would have been polite.

Orton did not have to say EJ is going to be a GREAT QB in time.

That is beyond polite.

[Mr. Pink]

Well just maybe the QB coaches at FSU are worth SH-T.

If they were REALLY good they would be in the NFL.

Then maybe the QB Coaches here are worth SH-T.

Dude looks the same as he did when he first started at FSU.

At some point EJ needs to be personally accountable for being hot garbage.

[better days]

How about hitting a baseball (instead of throwing one).
I played a lot of baseball growing up and into my early 30s.
Good glove/no hit.
At first it puzzled me why guys who (I thought) were not as good athletes as me were so much better swinging the bat, even after many, many hours in the batting cage working on "mechanics". Never having been a complete player at the level I played is a disappointment to me to this day.
Eventually I understood the reason. It's really mostly about how well you see the ball. Rod Carew used to say that it looked to him like a grapefruit to him. Well it was always an aspirin to me. If I had seen the ball well, my mechanics would have been better, even if you always have to practice them to stay sharp.
So with EJ I think it's a matter of vision and therefore of reading and reacting on a timely basis in real time with the bullets flying. Like me, I think it's just a missing piece of the puzzle and I don't know where you go to find that.

Well, Hackett said EJ's accuracy issues were more about timing than mechanics.

It is the same with hitting a ball.

If you swing too soon, you foul to the 1st base side.

If you swing too late, you foul to the 3rd base side.

I still remember a ball I hit when I played.

It felt great when the ball hit my bat & it went higher & farther than any other ball I ever hit...but it was just foul of the 3rd base line.

If you can't even make contact with the ball, obviously you have no talent.

The problem EJ has is delivering the ball too late, that is a timing issue & can be corrected.

[better days]

Then maybe the QB Coaches here are worth SH-T.

Dude looks the same as he did when he first started at FSU.

At some point EJ needs to be personally accountable for being hot garbage.

Maybe the QB Coaches in Buffalo are worth Sh-t as well.

Or maybe EJ is improving. We have no way of knowing because we can't see the practices, nor can the media.

[sudzy]

Can EJ improve his accuracy? Maybe a little. Working on your mechanics might help some. But, in the NFL, things happen so fast, it's hard for a player to think about where their arm is or shoulders are. That's why, in the NFL, the QBs that it come natural to succeed and the player that need to work on accuracy end up in Canada.

[CommissarSpartacus]

As usual, you have it backwards.

You need talent AND practice. But all the practice in the world won't make you great if you don't have the talent. And EJ does not have the gift of accuracy. He is starting at such a deficit that if he improved 900%, he would still just be average.

I'm not arguing for or against EJ's ultimate success or failure, just pointing that just because a guy is inaccurate doesn't mean he's untalented.

I think the issue is silly. Of COURSE he should be working on his accuracy. Every qb should. And yes, there are cases where people were judged untalented, both by others and by themselves, who became talented through hard work and practice. Like I said, Hogan was a journeyman for many years until he learned how to fade the ball rather than hook it. Once he figured it out, all of a sudden he had all the talent in the world.

[YardRat]

How about hitting a baseball (instead of throwing one).
I played a lot of baseball growing up and into my early 30s.
Good glove/no hit.
At first it puzzled me why guys who (I thought) were not as good athletes as me were so much better swinging the bat, even after many, many hours in the batting cage working on "mechanics". Never having been a complete player at the level I played is a disappointment to me to this day.
Eventually I understood the reason. It's really mostly about how well you see the ball. Rod Carew used to say that it looked to him like a grapefruit to him. Well it was always an aspirin to me. If I had seen the ball well, my mechanics would have been better, even if you always have to practice them to stay sharp.
So with EJ I think it's a matter of vision and therefore of reading and reacting on a timely basis in real time with the bullets flying. Like me, I think it's just a missing piece of the puzzle and I don't know where you go to find that.

You (or me, for that matter) sucking in a beer league is irrelevant to whether or not accuracy can be learned. Even if EJ never 'gets it', and never gets more accurate, that doesn't indicate it isn't a skill that can be learned, it just means he sucked at learning it.

Since I brought up golf and some replied to it, I'll just add this...if you suck at it now, just give up the game and pack away the clubs...stay off the course...you'll never get better because you weren't 'born with it' so you're just wasting your time. Good. Better for me. I don't need a bunch of hackers-at-birth slowing down my game.

[WagonCircler]

I'm not arguing for or against EJ's ultimate success or failure, just pointing that just because a guy is inaccurate doesn't mean he's untalented.

I think the issue is silly. Of COURSE he should be working on his accuracy. Every qb should. And yes, there are cases where people were judged untalented, both by others and by themselves, who became talented through hard work and practice. Like I said, Hogan was a journeyman for many years until he learned how to fade the ball rather than hook it. Once he figured it out, all of a sudden he had all the talent in the world.

Again, you miss the point. And the point has never been that EJ is untalented. The point is that he has fatal, unsolvable flaws. He can work and work, just like you or I could run windsprints every day for five years. But we'd only get incrementally faster (actually, at our respective ages, we would likely get slower). EJ is so far from adequate in the accuracy department and has so obviously failed to improve since his college days, he will simply not achieve replacement level competence. Ever.

And furthermore, the golf analogy is really poor. Just like baseball pitchers, golfers don't have 275 lb. madmen who run like track stars, trying to kill them (although it would be awesome if they did).

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I'm not arguing for or against EJ's ultimate success or failure, just pointing that just because a guy is inaccurate doesn't mean he's untalented.

I think the issue is silly. Of COURSE he should be working on his accuracy. Every qb should. And yes, there are cases where people were judged untalented, both by others and by themselves, who became talented through hard work and practice. Like I said, Hogan was a journeyman for many years until he learned how to fade the ball rather than hook it. Once he figured it out, all of a sudden he had all the talent in the world.


You (or me, for that matter) sucking in a beer league is irrelevant to whether or not accuracy can be learned. Even if EJ never 'gets it', and never gets more accurate, that doesn't indicate it isn't a skill that can be learned, it just means he sucked at learning it.

Since I brought up golf and some replied to it, I'll just add this...if you suck at it now, just give up the game and pack away the clubs...stay off the course...you'll never get better because you weren't 'born with it' so you're just wasting your time. Good. Better for me. I don't need a bunch of hackers-at-birth slowing down my game.

Again, the golf analogies don't work because golfers have long careers. You can go pro at 18, spend 15 years practicing, and still play competitively for decades.

[YardRat]

Again, the golf analogies don't work because golfers have long careers. You can go pro at 18, spend 15 years practicing, and still play competitively for decades.

Length of career potential has nothing to do with learning the skills necessary to compete. Somebody else brought up hand/eye coordination, depth perception, muscle memory, etc relative to the accuracy argument...similar skills that golfers have to continually work on to improve or maintain, and they do. If a golfer spends only 15 years practicing, his career will only last 15 years. Don't want to switch the positions up and confuse anybody, but placekicker is the probably the closest thing to golfer for any of the four major sports, and kickers don't come out of the womb with the ability to boot a football 58 yards in between posts that are 18'6" apart, it's a skill that they learn and continue to work on to remain proficient.

[starrymessenger]

You (or me, for that matter) sucking in a beer league is irrelevant to whether or not accuracy can be learned. Even if EJ never 'gets it', and never gets more accurate, that doesn't indicate it isn't a skill that can be learned, it just means he sucked at learning it.

Since I brought up golf and some replied to it, I'll just add this...if you suck at it now, just give up the game and pack away the clubs...stay off the course...you'll never get better because you weren't 'born with it' so you're just wasting your time. Good. Better for me. I don't need a bunch of hackers-at-birth slowing down my game.

I don't agree that it's (always) irrelevant. Sometimes it is relevant.
If you have the ability to do something, practice can make perfect.
If you are basically without the ability to perform a specific task, for whatever reason, no amount of practice will enable you to do it. Especially, needless to say, if you are asked to do it well at the highest level of competition.
EJ is lacking in the basic ability to throw a football. That statement needs to be taken in context however. Every poster on the board can throw a football, and of course EJ can as well in a manner of speaking. But I don't believe that he will ever be able to throw a football with the accuracy (and the velocity and touch when the situation requires it) that a NFL QB needs to be able to do, and he is so far lacking in that particular skill that no amount of practice and repetition will take him to where he needs to be. It's just a hole in his game, a missing piece, a dead zone.
Everybody who is of that opinion can speculate as to what exactly the reason is. Better Days says it's a timing issue. Actually I fully agree but I also think you need to dig deeper than that. IMO his timing is off because he cannot process information quickly enuf when the bullets are flying to put himself in a position to execute properly, and therefore to do what clearly he is otherwise capable of doing physically. When it comes to passing (as opposed to simply throwing) a football EJ does not have the brain of a NFL QB. He would need a new brain.
And I doubt that anyone who is of that view derives any pleasure in that.
It's really unfortunate for all of us, though most of all for him.

[better days]

I don't agree that it's (always) irrelevant. Sometimes it is relevant.
If you have the ability to do something, practice can make perfect.
If you are basically without the ability to perform a specific task, for whatever reason, no amount of practice will enable you to do it. Especially, needless to say, if you are asked to do it well at the highest level of competition.
EJ is lacking in the basic ability to throw a football. That statement needs to be taken in context however. Every poster on the board can throw a football, and of course EJ can as well in a manner of speaking. But I don't believe that he will ever be able to throw a football with the accuracy (and the velocity and touch when the situation requires it) that a NFL QB needs to be able to do, and he is so far lacking in that particular skill that no amount of practice and repetition will take him to where he needs to be. It's just a hole in his game, a missing piece, a dead zone.
Everybody who is of that opinion can speculate as to what exactly the reason is. Better Days says it's a timing issue. Actually I fully agree but I also think you need to dig deeper than that. IMO his timing is off because he cannot process information quickly enuf when the bullets are flying to put himself in a position to execute properly, and therefore to do what clearly he is otherwise capable of doing physically. When it comes to passing (as opposed to simply throwing) a football EJ does not have the brain of a NFL QB. He would need a new brain.
And I doubt that anyone who is of that view derives any pleasure in that.
It's really unfortunate for all of us, though most of all for him.

Well, you are wrong about EJ not being able to throw with velocity.

EJ can throw a tight spiral through the strongest winds in Ralph Wilson Stadium.

Anyone that watches the Bills, knows that to be true.

EJ can throw with more velocity than Brady, Manning & MANY other QB's in the NFL today.

His head is the question, I agree. He needs to learn to diagnose defenses faster & throw the ball in a timely manor to the right spot.

Time will tell if he can learn to do that or not, but we will not know before next TC unless God forbid Orton gets injured.

And I was just repeating what Hackett said about it being a timing issue with EJ.

[starrymessenger]

Well, you are wrong about EJ not being able to throw with velocity.

EJ can throw a tight spiral through the strongest winds in Ralph Wilson Stadium.

Anyone that watches the Bills, knows that to be true.

EJ can throw with more velocity than Brady, Manning & MANY other QB's in the NFL today.

His head is the question, I agree. He needs to learn to diagnose defenses faster & throw the ball in a timely manor to the right spot.

Time will tell if he can learn to do that or not, but we will not know before next TC unless God forbid Orton gets injured.

And I was just repeating what Hackett said about it being a timing issue with EJ.

Its funny how much we agree, given that we disagree.
Not only can EJ throw with velocity but he can also throw with accuracy and therefore demonstrating the right mechanics - in shorts on a practice field. And I think he could do it in a game too, if he had worlds of time in which to execute.
But I don't think he can do it in the chaotic and compressed time frames in which NFL QBs are required to do it on Sundays. Of course I might be flat out wrong about that and it would be great if that were the case.
If NH says it's a timing issue IMO he needs to consider what the underlying cause of that timing issue is and what the implications are for the team going forward. The question is important because the Bills need to figure out whether they should continue to pour resources into EJ or look elsewhere in finding and grooming the next guy up. Timing is an issue there too because even if he continues to play well, Kyle Orton won't be around forever and the team needs to prepare for that.

[better days]

Its funny how much we agree, given that we disagree.
Not only can EJ throw with velocity but he can also throw with accuracy and therefore demonstrating the right mechanics - in shorts on a practice field. And I think he could do it in a game too, if he had worlds of time in which to execute.
But I don't think he can do it in the chaotic and compressed time frames in which NFL QBs are required to do it on Sundays. Of course I might be flat out wrong about that and it would be great if that were the case.
If NH says it's a timing issue IMO he needs to consider what the underlying cause of that timing issue is and what the implications are for the team going forward. The question is important because the Bills need to figure out whether they should continue to pour resources into EJ or look elsewhere in finding and grooming the next guy up. Timing is an issue there too because even if he continues to play well, Kyle Orton won't be around forever and the team needs to prepare for that.

Well, as I said Hackett said it is a timing issue because EJ needs to learn to read defenses faster & trust what he sees with his eyes.

It remains to be seen if he can learn to do that or not.

As to Orton, he is 31 years old. Brady is 37 years old, Manning is 38 years old.

And like Freddie, Orton has a lot of tread left on the tires having played so little thus far.

I think Orton could easily play at least 5-6 more years if he wants to.

[starrymessenger]

Well, as I said Hackett said it is a timing issue because EJ needs to learn to read defenses faster & trust what he sees with his eyes.

It remains to be seen if he can learn to do that or not.

As to Orton, he is 31 years old. Brady is 37 years old, Manning is 38 years old.

And like Freddie, Orton has a lot of tread left on the tires having played so little thus far.

I think Orton could easily play at least 5-6 more years if he wants to.

Well I agree that Orton is not too old and that he can probably play for a good number of years if that's what he wants to do. Now he's a guy who appears to have plenty enuf arm talent to play in this league. But there are holes in his game as well. He's sort of a magnet for sacks for example. So all these QB related skill sets are separate abilities. But in the hierarchy of requirements, I think ability as a passer is at the top of the list for NFL QBs so that if I had to chose between mobility and athleticism on the one hand and skill as a passer on the other I would put 100% of the eggs in the passer basket. Obviously having the total package is optimal. If Kyle Orton was very mobile and athletic he'd probably be Aaron Rodgers.

[better days]

Well I agree that Orton is not too old and that he can probably play for a good number of years if that's what he wants to do. Now he's a guy who appears to have plenty enuf arm talent to play in this league. But there are holes in his game as well. He's sort of a magnet for sacks for example. So all these QB related skill sets are separate abilities. But in the hierarchy of requirements, I think ability as a passer is at the top of the list for NFL QBs so that if I had to chose between mobility and athleticism on the one hand and skill as a passer on the other I would put 100% of the eggs in the passer basket. Obviously having the total package is optimal. If Kyle Orton was very mobile and athletic he'd probably be Aaron Rodgers.

I don't know why you think we don't agree.

I think we are very much in agreement.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Length of career potential has nothing to do with learning the skills necessary to compete. Somebody else brought up hand/eye coordination, depth perception, muscle memory, etc relative to the accuracy argument...similar skills that golfers have to continually work on to improve or maintain, and they do. If a golfer spends only 15 years practicing, his career will only last 15 years. Don't want to switch the positions up and confuse anybody, but placekicker is the probably the closest thing to golfer for any of the four major sports, and kickers don't come out of the womb with the ability to boot a football 58 yards in between posts that are 18'6" apart, it's a skill that they learn and continue to work on to remain proficient.

What are you talking about? Yes, length of career absolutely does matter with learning the skills necessary to compete. Improvement to things like your mechanical fundamentals often takes time. A LOT of time. Most successful QBs have already put in a lot of that time already, before they arrive at the show. Manuel either hasn't done so, or it hasn't stuck, and neither is good news for us. Because unless he makes quick, dramatic strides in his accuracy - something which rarely happens due to improved mechanics - he's not going to develop them in time to play for the Bills. He'll either be on his second team or his second league.

[Albany,n.y.]

I just heard JP Losman has been practicing non-stop for the past few years and is now ready to come back to the NFL.

[Cleve]

Manuel will start by perfecting hitting larger targets, and work his way down as his aim improves....

17165

[Buckets]

Just got thru with my physical therapist who is a Fl. St. alumni he stated that at the end of every season everyone couldn't wait to see what EJ would do next year he had the talent and showed signs of great things to come. Well at the end of his senior campaign everyone was still waiting. He couldn't believe the Bills wasted a first on him especially after Fl. St. coaches advised against it.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Again, you miss the point. And the point has never been that EJ is untalented. The point is that he has fatal, unsolvable flaws. He can work and work, just like you or I could run windsprints every day for five years. But we'd only get incrementally faster (actually, at our respective ages, we would likely get slower). EJ is so far from adequate in the accuracy department and has so obviously failed to improve since his college days, he will simply not achieve replacement level competence. Ever.

And furthermore, the golf analogy is really poor. Just like baseball pitchers, golfers don't have 275 lb. madmen who run like track stars, trying to kill them (although it would be awesome if they did).

Look, from what I've seen of EJ, I suspect that your assessment is correct, that he doesn't have the talent to be anything special as a qb, but that's for reasons OTHER than his accuracy, which, as yardie and I have pointed out, can always be worked on and improved.

Talent involves two main components, the physical and the mental. Both Losman and EJ had strong arms and looked great in practice with the red shirt on and they were supposed to make plays with their feet. They had physical talent. It's that thing between the ears that was, and is, the problem with both of them.

Intelligence and imagination can't really be taught if you have no aptitude for it.

[WagonCircler]

Look, from what I've seen of EJ, I suspect that your assessment is correct, that he doesn't have the talent to be anything special as a qb, but that's for reasons OTHER than his accuracy, which, as yardie and I have pointed out, can always be worked on and improved.

Talent involves two main components, the physical and the mental. Both Losman and EJ had strong arms and looked great in practice with the red shirt on and they were supposed to make plays with their feet. They had physical talent. It's that thing between the ears that was, and is, the problem with both of them.

Intelligence and imagination can't really be taught if you have no aptitude for it.

It's more than that, though. There are also physiological factors, like depth perception and timing. We can't all be drummers, because we don't have the same inborn sense of timing. We can't all be sharpshooters or prizefighters or MLB .300 hitters, for similar reasons.

These factors don't fall easily into a category like intelligence or athleticism, but they're every bit as crucial to the success of an NFL QB. Muscle memory is another talent that some are more blessed with than others. And practice doesn't close the gap.

EJ has a lot of intangibles, but he lacks others, and those are his downfall.

And again, can EJ improve his accuracy? Sure. A little. But his deficit is such that he can't improve it nearly enough to succeed as a franchise QB, and that's not because of intelligence, work ethic or athleticism. It's natural aptitude.

[Cleve]

Speaking of "aptitude", let's recall the IN-aptitude (ineptitude?) of those who drafted him in the first place, from one of the worst possible QB classes. He's performing exactly as one would infer from his DRAFT REPORT. There are no surprises here.

[CommissarSpartacus]

It's more than that, though. There are also physiological factors, like depth perception and timing. We can't all be drummers, because we don't have the same inborn sense of timing. We can't all be sharpshooters or prizefighters or MLB .300 hitters, for similar reasons.

These factors don't fall easily into a category like intelligence or athleticism, but they're every bit as crucial to the success of an NFL QB.


If you'll notice, the two categories I mentioned were mental and physical, not intelligence and athleticism, because intelligence and athleticism are sub-sets of mental and physical.

Depth perception and timing are a mental thing and muscle memory is a physical thing.

[WagonCircler]

If you'll notice, the two categories I mentioned were mental and physical, not intelligence and athleticism, because intelligence and athleticism are sub-sets of mental and physical.

Depth perception and timing are a mental thing and muscle memory is a physical thing.

Right, but the larger point is that those talents are inherent and can only be improved upon incrementally. I could pound away at a trap kit and take lessons 24 hours a day and I'm never going to be Buddy Rich. Similarly, EJ can only improve a little bit. He just doesn't have what it takes to become accurate enough.

[better days]

Right, but the larger point is that those talents are inherent and can only be improved upon incrementally. I could pound away at a trap kit and take lessons 24 hours a day and I'm never going to be Buddy Rich. Similarly, EJ can only improve a little bit. He just doesn't have what it takes to become accurate enough.

Well, EJ most likely does not have what it takes to be Peyton Manning, but he just needs to improve a little to get his rating over 60% which would be good enough to win with this team

[WagonCircler]

Well, EJ most likely does not have what it takes to be Peyton Manning, but he just needs to improve a little to get his rating over 60% which would be good enough to win with this team

I don't think he has the aptitude to even do that consistently.

And even if he does, I believe we need better. Most elite teams have elite QBs. Sure, there's the occasional Trent Dilfer anomaly, but those situations are very rare.

And EJ will also never be Alex Smith, who hangs his hat on being mistake-free. EJ will never have the type of consistency--his other huge problem--to become that kind of player.

Orson gives us the opportunity to find an Aaron Rodgers and develop him. EJ will never be that guy.

[jills]

Well just maybe the QB coaches at FSU are worth SH-T.

If they were REALLY good they would be in the NFL.

Or just maybe he's not very good. Throughout his life he has had several coaches and still has crappy accuracy, that's not on the coaches that's on his lack of talent.



</pre>

[CommissarSpartacus]

Right, but the larger point is that those talents are inherent and can only be improved upon incrementally.

That's my point as well.

Physical can be improved significantly, mental not so much.

If a 300 lb guy comes rushing at you full speed and you start to tremble with fear and miss an open guy by ten yards, that's not an accuracy problem.

That's a guts problem.

[jills]

This whole "you either have it or you don't" sounds silly. is throwing a football accurately a skill that can never be learned?

How about accuracy in archery or target shooting? How about baseball pitching? Golf? any of these sports that require accuracy are only bested by people "born with it"?

I think it is an attitude, confidence thing. watching Brady approach the line... there is a look in his eyes in that he KNOWS what he's gonna do and the D doesn't matter... They have to stop him.

Any young QB without that confinence approaches the line with a I hope this works attitude.

LMAO! that settles it, it's just a confidence thing, it has nothing to do with his evident lack of talent.

According to this "logic" I could beat Usain Bolt in a footrace if I have enough confidence hahahahahahaha!

[WagonCircler]

If a 300 lb guy comes rushing at you full speed and you start to tremble with fear and miss an open guy by ten yards, that's not an accuracy problem.

That's a guts problem.

It's just as much an accuracy problem as a guts problem. It's not just fear, it physics.

One of the things I like so much about Russell Wilson is his ability to be accurate while throwing on the run. As an MLB talent-level 2nd Baseman, Wilson can throw accurately from any arm angle, off balance or not, running or jumping.

EJ struggles to throw accurately under perfect conditions. Make him run and throw and the dung really hits the fan.

[WagonCircler]

According to this "logic" I could beat Usain Bolt in a footrace if I have enough confidence hahahahahahaha!

And practice. Don't forget! Practice, practice, practice! Hahaha.

[sudzy]

Well just maybe the QB coaches at FSU are worth SH-T.

If they were REALLY good they would be in the NFL.

Jameis Winston seems to be doing OK in spite of FSU ***** coaches.

[better days]

Jameis Winston seems to be doing OK in spite of FSU ***** coaches.

Yeah.

He is really raising his draft stock LMAO.

[better days]

I don't think he has the aptitude to even do that consistently.

And even if he does, I believe we need better. Most elite teams have elite QBs. Sure, there's the occasional Trent Dilfer anomaly, but those situations are very rare.

And EJ will also never be Alex Smith, who hangs his hat on being mistake-free. EJ will never have the type of consistency--his other huge problem--to become that kind of player.

Orson gives us the opportunity to find an Aaron Rodgers and develop him. EJ will never be that guy.

I am in favor of Drafting a QB or two with potential to come in & compete.

[CommissarSpartacus]

It's just as much an accuracy problem as a guts problem. It's not just fear, it physics.

One of the things I like so much about Russell Wilson is his ability to be accurate while throwing on the run. As an MLB talent-level 2nd Baseman, Wilson can throw accurately from any arm angle, off balance or not, running or jumping.

EJ struggles to throw accurately under perfect conditions. Make him run and throw and the dung really hits the fan.

Uh, did I say I wouldn't trade EJ for Russell Wilson?

Look, I don't know why they drafted EJ and I've certainly never drooled over his tools.

If we think he can't contribute, the organi2ation should say nice things about him then trade him for something useful.

Th fact that competent qbs are in such short supply in the NFL is really an indictment of the system that picks guys with physical tools then tries to find out if they actually have talent.

[WagonCircler]

Uh, did I say I wouldn't trade EJ for Russell Wilson?

I never said you did. I merely used him as an example to explain that accuracy/inaccuracy under pressure is not only about "guts".

Not everything is about you, Shiva.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I never said you did. I merely used him as an example to explain that accuracy/inaccuracy under pressure is not only about "guts".


Bad example then.

If this was the case, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, who play nothing like Russel Wilson, wouldn't be going to the HOF.

would we all like our qb to be freakishly athletic like Russel Wilson? Of course.

Do you have to be to be a great qb? No.

[sudzy]

Yeah.

He is really raising his draft stock LMAO.

Like the FSU coaches are responsible for all the bonehead things he has done off the field? How's he doing on the field? Top ten worthy. You calmed FSU may have sh t coaches because they didn't get the most out of EJ. Then I bring up their getting the most out of Winston, one the field. You go right to the off the field stuff that has nothing to do with the coaches. Moron.

[WagonCircler]

Bad example then.

If this was the case, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, who play nothing like Russel Wilson, wouldn't be going to the HOF.

would we all like our qb to be freakishly athletic like Russel Wilson? Of course.

Do you have to be to be a great qb? No.

Not a bad example at all. It's not meant to illustrate the ideal QB. In this context, a discussion about whether or not accuracy is a largely inherent skill, we have been discussing mechanics and the influence of mechanics under pressure and how throwing on the run necessitates a change in throwing motion.

Russell Wilson was chosen to illustrate a QB blessed with God given talent for throwing accurately after a protection breakdown. Ben Roethlisberger would also be a great example of this (and a less athletic one).

The larger point, again, is that if EJ can't even master the art and mechanics of pocket passing while well protected, after having practiced and been tutored for about 12 years, he will never acquire those skills at an advanced level, especially to the degree that he can throw accurately while being pressure, which is more often than not in this league.

Manning and Brady would be fine examples overall, but their approach is different, and comparing EJ with them is like comparing a pee-wee hockey player with Gretzky.

And I do believe it's preferable to have a great QB. It greatly improves your odds of winning.

We already have a guy who's not freakishly athletic, but seems more than adequate. I think Orton can get the Bills to the playoffs. And I think he can be effective for another two years or so. I also think that during that two years, the Bills would be well served to look for a guy like Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson, who have the talent to win Super Bowls.

I don't believe EJ will ever have that in him, and the longer he's on this team, the longer the Bills procrastinate. The position is too important for that.

[CommissarSpartacus]

The larger point, again, is that if EJ can't even master the art and mechanics of pocket passing while well protected, after having practiced and been tutored for about 12 years, he will never acquire those skills at an advanced level, especially to the degree that he can throw accurately while being pressure, which is more often than not in this league.


Hard to argue with this.

[better days]

Like the FSU coaches are responsible for all the bonehead things he has done off the field? How's he doing on the field? Top ten worthy. You calmed FSU may have sh t coaches because they didn't get the most out of EJ. Then I bring up their getting the most out of Winston, one the field. You go right to the off the field stuff that has nothing to do with the coaches. Moron.

Well, IDIOT, Coaches are supposed to be mentors to these kids in College.

And they tell the parents of the kids they recruit, "Don't worry, your kid is in good hands with us, we will keep an eye on him."

The Coaches ABSOLUTELY have a responsibility as to the actions of their players off the field.

And after last year, Winston was talked of as the #1 pick in the draft.

He will be lucky if he is drafted in the top 10.

[RedEyE]

I understand criticising EJs play but I don't understand some people's outward hate for the guy. Why wouldn't a fan not want him to succeed? He's the Bills back up QB. The primary QB is behind a suspect line and is getting pummeled weekly. We are literally 1 bad tackle away from seeing EJ back at the helm. What does it hurt to offer him a little support, positive vibe, and reassurance that the fans stand behind him in his continuing development?

[YardRat]

The larger point, again, is that if EJ can't even master the art and mechanics of pocket passing while well protected, after having practiced and been tutored for about 12 years, he will never acquire those skills at an advanced level, especially to the degree that he can throw accurately while being pressure, which is more often than not in this league.


Hard to argue with this.

Saying he won't ever get it because he obviously hasn't gotten it yet, is quite different than saying he can't ever get it because he wasn't born with it.

[WagonCircler]

Saying he won't ever get it because he obviously hasn't gotten it yet, is quite different than saying he can't ever get it because he wasn't born with it.

He was born with too much of a deficit. It will never get to a point where it's second nature. And it needs to be second nature.

Some are born with accuracy, without having to work so hard. Those are the QBs who succeed. Sure, they work hard to hone their accuracy, but their starting point is so far ahead of QBs like EJ, who can't close the gap. It's too big.

[RedEyE]

I haven't seen the article on DNA and passing accuracy deficiencies. Someone post it here.

[better days]

He was born with too much of a deficit. It will never get to a point where it's second nature. And it needs to be second nature.

Some are born with accuracy, without having to work so hard. Those are the QBs who succeed. Sure, they work hard to hone their accuracy, but their starting point is so far ahead of QBs like EJ, who can't close the gap. It's too big.

You can WHINE for the next 3 years...at least.

[Albany,n.y.]

I understand criticising EJs play but I don't understand some people's outward hate for the guy. Why wouldn't a fan not want him to succeed? He's the Bills back up QB. The primary QB is behind a suspect line and is getting pummeled weekly. We are literally 1 bad tackle away from seeing EJ back at the helm. What does it hurt to offer him a little support, positive vibe, and reassurance that the fans stand behind him in his continuing development?

Nobody hates EJ. What they hate is the fact that the Bills spent a 1st round pick on a guy who will never be a quality starter in the NFL. They do not like the fact that for all intents & purposes EJ represents a wasted pick as well as a drain on the 53 man roster because he isn't good enough.

What I don't get is how quick some fans are to scream at someone that they "hate" this player or that, usually a QB because it's the most high profile position, because the 1st one recognized the guy doesn't have enough talent to play very long in the NFL. I remember a few years ago the Bills picked Brohm off GB's practice squad in mid-season after they had cut him at the end of preseason and none of the top GMs in the league had bothered to put in a waiver claim on a former high pick a year after he was drafted. Every time I said he'd never make it because guys a lot smarter & better at their jobs than Buddy Nix wanted nothing to do with the guy, someone would call me a Brohm hater. Almost all the time, the ones calling the others haters are behind the curve on the fact the guy they're supporting just isn't good enough.

[better days]

Nobody hates EJ. What they hate is the fact that the Bills spent a 1st round pick on a guy who will never be a quality starter in the NFL. They do not like the fact that for all intents & purposes EJ represents a wasted pick as well as a drain on the 53 man roster because he isn't good enough.

What I don't get is how quick some fans are to scream at someone that they "hate" this player or that, usually a QB because it's the most high profile position, because the 1st one recognized the guy doesn't have enough talent to play very long in the NFL. I remember a few years ago the Bills picked Brohm off GB's practice squad in mid-season after they had cut him at the end of preseason and none of the top GMs in the league had bothered to put in a waiver claim on a former high pick a year after he was drafted. Every time I said he'd never make it because guys a lot smarter & better at their jobs than Buddy Nix wanted nothing to do with the guy, someone would call me a Brohm hater. Almost all the time, the ones calling the others haters are behind the curve on the fact the guy they're supporting just isn't good enough.

Every team needs a back up QB & EJ is at least that. He is a GOOD back up QB at this point, NOT a drain on the roster.

If EJ never becomes a starter, he will have been overdrafted, but it is not like he is the only QB to have been overdrafted.

[RedEyE]

Nobody hates EJ. What they hate is the fact that the Bills spent a 1st round pick on a guy who will never be a quality starter in the NFL. They do not like the fact that for all intents & purposes EJ represents a wasted pick as well as a drain on the 53 man roster because he isn't good enough.

What I don't get is how quick some fans are to scream at someone that they "hate" this player or that, usually a QB because it's the most high profile position, because the 1st one recognized the guy doesn't have enough talent to play very long in the NFL. I remember a few years ago the Bills picked Brohm off GB's practice squad in mid-season after they had cut him at the end of preseason and none of the top GMs in the league had bothered to put in a waiver claim on a former high pick a year after he was drafted. Every time I said he'd never make it because guys a lot smarter & better at their jobs than Buddy Nix wanted nothing to do with the guy, someone would call me a Brohm hater. Almost all the time, the ones calling the others haters are behind the curve on the fact the guy they're supporting just isn't good enough.

Really?!! Did you bother to read this thread. Comments full of disparaging remarks.

[Cleve]

Nobody hates EJ. What they hate is the fact that the Bills spent a 1st round pick on a guy who will never be a quality starter in the NFL. They do not like the fact that for all intents & purposes EJ represents a wasted pick as well as a drain on the 53 man roster because he isn't good enough.



Exactly correct, at least for me.

I don't dislike Manuel on a personal level - he may be a wonderful, upstanding model citizen. To me he's a living, walking, breathing embodiment of the utter ineptitude and incompetency of the Buffalo Bills management and coaching during the last decade plus the Ralph Wilson Jr. era. We're stuck with him right now because Wilson continually cheaped out on coaches and GMs , and put a bean-counter (Dumbdon) in charge of everything. Quality coaches and GMs avoided Buffalo like the plaque because of Wilson's meddling style of ownership.

[WagonCircler]

Every team needs a back up QB & EJ is at least that. He is a GOOD back up QB at this point, NOT a drain on the roster.

If EJ never becomes a starter, he will have been overdrafted, but it is not like he is the only QB to have been overdrafted.

I would agree with this if I thought the Bills brass felt this way. But as long as EJ is here, they will try to save face and deny that they blew a #1, and they will force the issue and drag their feet trying to find a long term franchise QB.

It's possible that they realize their mistake, but I don't see it.

[WagonCircler]

Exactly correct, at least for me.

I don't dislike Manuel on a personal level - he may be a wonderful, upstanding model citizen. To me he's a living, walking, breathing embodiment of the utter ineptitude and incompetency of the Buffalo Bills management and coaching during the last decade plus the Ralph Wilson Jr. era. We're stuck with him right now because Wilson continually cheaped out on coaches and GMs , and put a bean-counter (Dumbdon) in charge of everything. Quality coaches and GMs avoided Buffalo like the plaque because of Wilson's meddling style of ownership.

Absolutely. Totally agree. Great kid. Would be proud to have him represent the franchise, if he could play.

It's not personal. It's business.

I don't think I've ever read one word of personal criticism of EJ from anyone.

When we criticize him, we criticize his game, not him.

As opposed to some other failed Bills QBs.

I hated everything about Trent Edwards. His demeanor. The way he sulked on the end of the bench. The way he talked. Everything.

There's not a thing I don't like about EJ except for his inaccuracy, which I believe is too great a problem to overcome.

[mayotm]

I would agree with this if I thought the Bills brass felt this way. But as long as EJ is here, they will try to save face and deny that they blew a #1, and they will force the issue and drag their feet trying to find a long term franchise QB.

It's possible that they realize their mistake, but I don't see it.They realize it enough to have benched him.

[starrymessenger]

Absolutely. Totally agree. Great kid. Would be proud to have him represent the franchise, if he could play.

It's not personal. It's business.

I don't think I've ever read one word of personal criticism of EJ from anyone.

When we criticize him, we criticize his game, not him.

As opposed to some other failed Bills QBs.

I hated everything about Trent Edwards. His demeanor. The way he sulked on the end of the bench. The way he talked. Everything.

There's not a thing I don't like about EJ except for his inaccuracy, which I believe is too great a problem to overcome.

I fondly remember The Cowardly Lion and Captain Whoeverhewas. Legendary. Just about the only fun I had as a Bills fan at the time. I think you were probably responsible for running both them out of town.

[swiper]

They realize it enough to have benched him.

Remember Marrone fighting with Whaley and Brandon at camp? That move was all Marrone trying to save his own job. He recognizes the crap fire, aka known as EJ Manuel, and wanted him out of there as fast as possible.

And as far as his accuracy? He has little. Very little. And his working to improve upon it? How well did being accurate work for recent Bill QB Alex Tanney?

You can look up his YouTube video again for kicks.

Manuel lacks MUCH more than just accuracy.

If he played hockey, he'd be in the ECHL.

[swiper]

Maybe he will get it?

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/EJ-Manuel-building-trust-into-his-game/87ea5dec-2434-4474-ad00-363b22f289a1?campaign=fb_buf_article

Ummmm. No.

[Cleve]

Remember Marrone fighting with Whaley and Brandon at camp?

Brandon? Wait.... Brandon has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PERSONNEL OR ROSTER OF THE TEAM. Brandon is totally innocent, as BLAMELESS AS A NEWBORN BABE and has zero responsibility for the crap we've seen on the field since 2006. Why would Marrone be arguing with Brandon? LOL

[swiper]

LOL. Brandon is the common theme. He's the one constant in all the years of mediocre to terrible garbage.