2 things and 2 things only cost the Bills a victory

[Forward_Lateral]

1.) The Brown fumble in through the endzone. Would've sealed the victory, IMO.

2.) McKelvin's fumble. The Chiefs couldn't move the ball worth a damn vs the Bills D. Leodis should've been instructed to fair catch the ball at that point in the game.

Please stop blaming Orton. Yeah he missed some reads and throws, but if those two careless mistakes don't happen, the Bills win handily.

I'm just as pissed as the next guy that they pissed that game away, but Orton was not the reason they lost. Far from it.

[DraftBoy]

So the fumbles your categorizing as "careless" but just plain missing reads and throws is excusable? I get it that Orton is the best QB we've had since the Reagan Administration but that doesn't make him immune from criticism. He wasn't good on Sunday and shoulders as much of the blame as other players do.

[DesertFox24]

Forward I said the same thing to my wife after the game.

All Chandler had to do was just fall on it.

Even with those missed points had McKelvin not fumbled we win the game.

Look it is what it is.

There were some positives from the game though.

The OL did a great job in protection and run blocking I thought they are getting better and better, and that was against one of the best pass rushing teams in the NFL, and a great run defense.

The Defense is just unbelievable.

Bryce Brown looks like he will be our starter next year and that is another check mark for Whaley. Yes it was one game and I want to see more, but he hits the hole hard and keeps going like Fred.

Orton is not Tom Brady but he is way better than Fitz was, and Fitz was the last competent QB we had since Bledsoe.

That being said if Orton stays next season, and they extend Dareus and Hughes I think we could have a great team next year and compete against the pats for the division.

We all knew we were a wild card team this year, but if the above happens the division is something we have a legit shot at.

This season is not over by a long shot though.

I agree with what Joe B and a lot of people said the Bills needed to go 1-1 against the Chiefs and Phins, if they can beat the phins on Thursday we are 6-4 and still in this.

The AFC North and West are going to battle each other and 9-7 is a long shot to get in and would probably come down to division and AFC record as a tie breaker. I think 10 wins gets us in.

[DesertFox24]

I agree Orton made some mistakes at the end, and I thought we should have run on 2nd down. 4th down should have been to get the first down not win.

All that aside if Orton hits Hogan on the third down play and we win no one is discussing this.

All that this means is the Bills need to win the next 3 no choice. Then they have to win at Oakland and then beat one of the broncos, pats, packers to get in.

To be honest this is great because we will see if this team is truly different under Marrone and has changed the culture. They win the next 3, they may have.

Losing on Thursday puts a nail in the coffin however.

[Forward_Lateral]

So the fumbles your categorizing as "careless" but just plain missing reads and throws is excusable? I get it that Orton is the best QB we've had since the Reagan Administration but that doesn't make him immune from criticism. He wasn't good on Sunday and shoulders as much of the blame as other players do.

Yeah he didn't play his best game, but he didn't fumble a sure TD through the back of the endzone. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve blame, but I came here yesterday and saw about 20 threads saying he sucks and EJ needs to be back starting. It's depressing enough watching them blow a game they dominated, coming here after a loss was a huge mistake. I'll admit that.

Also, why the fudge were all 4 attempts from the 15 thrown into the endzone? Why not try to pick up a first down? They were gaining 5 yards almost every time they ran the ball up to that point. Or hey, why not throw another screen to Brown. Or a shuffle pass.

Playcalling or Orton, or both need to answer for that cluster bleep.

[feldspar]

I think there is no doubt the Bills win this game had those two fumbles not happened. They would have won if ONE of them didn't happen. Both were unbelievably hard to stomach...completely careless ball-security after the Bills were stressing that point. I also agree that the playcalling was inexplicable when the Bills had a chance to go ahead at the Chiefs' 15-yardline: 4 throws into the endzone? Could not believe they didn't run the ball there at least twice in that spot. They were in prime position near the end, and Kansas City has been pretty weak against the run...not to mention the issue of the Bills running out the clock before a score. Apparently, Hackett forgot about the concept of situational football in this case.

There were also little things that aren't as memorable, but were just as costly. The refs called a pretty Chiefs-friendly game. Like the BS unnecessary roughness call on Aaron Williams when he barely grazed Alex Smith while he was sliding. That was on 3rd down, and it extended the Chiefs' drive...the refs just basically gave the Chiefs 3 points as far as I'm concerned. Without those 3 points, the Chiefs likely lose the game, all things being equal.

Orton did not lose this game for the Bills, but he could have won it. I don't blame him as much as I blame other things way more. Calling for EJ to come into the game is just plain old bat**** crazy. There was this play though. Orton is going to kick himself when he sees this, which happened earlier in the 4th-quarter. Hogan was wide-open with some serious real estate in front of him:

http://i.imgur.com/YBoHNwO.jpg

[trapezeus]

i've said it before, and i'll say it again. chandler is the romo of TE. Some games he has it. others he sucks. no one was on him. he had 3-4 yards until the back of the endzone. he should have had that ball.

[Mr. Pink]

Or if Orton hit Woods or Chandler on crossing routes in the red zone cost the Bills a victory.

Combine the fumble by Brown into that and it's 21 points on the scoreboard instead of the 6 they got out of it.

Orton is just as much to blame as the two fumbles as all 4 plays cost or led directly to KC points.

[better days]

Orton might not have lost the game, but he did nothing to win it either.

He is who I thought he was, nothing more than mediocre.

[trapezeus]

the orton issues are bigger what ifs. the fumbles actually were the play. you either fumble and turn momentum or you hold on and we score or we burn more clock and play the Field position game.

the fumbles did us in combined with chandler's inability to be mediocre all the time.

[Mr. Pink]

the orton issues are bigger what ifs. the fumbles actually were the play. you either fumble and turn momentum or you hold on and we score or we burn more clock and play the Field position game.

the fumbles did us in combined with chandler's inability to be mediocre all the time.

Fumbles are what ifs too.

There's no guarantee that Brown goes in on that play, he could have been down on the one yard line and the team could have been stopped and held to 3 or went on 4th and got stopped. The Leodis fumble, there could have been a turnover the next play or a 3 and out and the Chiefs drove the field and scored anyway.

Chandler and Woods were both open and Orton missed them.

They are all coulda, shoulda and wouldas. Each contributed to the loss equally.

[Forward_Lateral]

Fumbles are what ifs too.

There's no guarantee that Brown goes in on that play, he could have been down on the one yard line and the team could have been stopped and held to 3 or went on 4th and got stopped. The Leodis fumble, there could have been a turnover the next play or a 3 and out and the Chiefs drove the field and scored anyway.

Chandler and Woods were both open and Orton missed them.

They are all coulda, shoulda and wouldas. Each contributed to the loss equally.

What. It was 100% GUARANTEED that Brown was scoring a TD on the play, unless a meteor fell from the sky and blew up the endzone. If you don't think he was scoring for sure, you are a complete and total buffoon.

[Mr. Pink]

What. It was 100% GUARANTEED that Brown was scoring a TD on the play, unless a meteor fell from the sky and blew up the endzone. If you don't think he was scoring for sure, you are a complete and total buffoon.

He was on the 3 with 3 KC players around him. The KC player went for the strip and not the tackle and guessed right. He goes for the tackle instead there's no guarantee Brown goes in to score dragging the defender in with him or breaking the tackle.

[Typ0]

There are little things that I would want to hold coaches accountable for too ... but at the end of the day even with Orton having one of his worst games we outplayed KC up and down the field. The difference in the game was the two fumbles. You don't give away TDs when you are having trouble scoring them and expect to win. Orton had to again perform like an elite QB we all know he isn't in order to overcome those mistakes.

[better days]

He was on the 3 with 3 KC players around him. The KC player went for the strip and not the tackle and guessed right. He goes for the tackle instead there's no guarantee Brown goes in to score dragging the defender in with him or breaking the tackle.

The defender got his hand on the ball, he was not in position to tackle Brown.

And nobody else was either.

[HHURRICANE]

1.) The Brown fumble in through the endzone. Would've sealed the victory, IMO.

2.) McKelvin's fumble. The Chiefs couldn't move the ball worth a damn vs the Bills D. Leodis should've been instructed to fair catch the ball at that point in the game.

Please stop blaming Orton. Yeah he missed some reads and throws, but if those two careless mistakes don't happen, the Bills win handily.

I'm just as pissed as the next guy that they pissed that game away, but Orton was not the reason they lost. Far from it.

100% agree!!!!!!!!!!

You saved me a thread today.

Let's not forget the three passes that got dropped after Orton started 5 out of 6. Woods dropped a ball that hit him in the hands because he started rnning with it before it was secured. Chandler dropped one that hit him in the hands. Smith dropped one that hit i in the hands as well.


We lost the turnoever battle and it cost us the game. Period, end of story.

The Defense played a terrific game and I have to say this but Hackett actually game planned his best game since hes been here....and I hate Hackett.

[Mr. Pink]

The defender got his hand on the ball, he was not in position to tackle Brown.

And nobody else was either.

If you're in position to get the ball, you're in position to make the tackle as well. Unless the ball carrier had his arm fully extended from his body which Brown did not.

Does Brown likely score if he holds on to the ball? Yes. But it's not any more guaranteed than the Bills doing anything on offense if McKelvin didn't fumble. And it's just as much of a woulda, coulda, shoulda as Orton hitting Chandler and Woods near the endzone in different sequences.

Any of those 4 plays going differently and the Bills likely win the game.

[better days]

If you're in position to get the ball, you're in position to make the tackle as well. Unless the ball carrier had his arm fully extended from his body which Brown did not.

Does Brown likely score if he holds on to the ball? Yes. But it's not any more guaranteed than the Bills doing anything on offense if McKelvin didn't fumble. And it's just as much of a woulda, coulda, shoulda as Orton hitting Chandler and Woods near the endzone in different sequences.

Any of those 4 plays going differently and the Bills likely win the game.

Most guys can not be brought down with a one arm tackle.

I doubt Brown can.

[justasportsfan]

So the fumbles your categorizing as "careless" but just plain missing reads and throws is excusable? I get it that Orton is the best QB we've had since the Reagan Administration but that doesn't make him immune from criticism. He wasn't good on Sunday and shoulders as much of the blame as other players do.

Missing reads stopped us from stepping on their throats but it didn't cause us to lose the game.

[HHURRICANE]

There were also little things that aren't as memorable, but were just as costly. The refs called a pretty Chiefs-friendly game. Like the BS unnecessary roughness call on Aaron Williams when he barely grazed Alex Smith while he was sliding. That was on 3rd down, and it extended the Chiefs' drive...the refs just basically gave the Chiefs 3 points as far as I'm concerned.
http://i.imgur.com/YBoHNwO.jpg

Actually that was a legit call. The ref had no choice there as the rule is very explicit. Even our own coaches gave him an earful when he came off.

[HHURRICANE]

Or if Orton hit Woods or Chandler on crossing routes in the red zone cost the Bills a victory.

Combine the fumble by Brown into that and it's 21 points on the scoreboard instead of the 6 they got out of it.

Orton is just as much to blame as the two fumbles as all 4 plays cost or led directly to KC points.

This is by far the dumbest post of the year.

What part of Brown fumbling the ball do you not get. Even if he doesn't get in th endzone as you argue above it would have been three points. Than McKelvin gave them great field position for the 7 points they got.

Orton completed 60% of his passes, had a TD and no interceptions. The loss is his fault after Brown fumbles a for sure TD and McKelvin gives away a TD?? We lost by 4 points but we gave away 14. Do the math.

Just plain stupid.

[trapezeus]

Fumbles are what ifs too.

There's no guarantee that Brown goes in on that play, he could have been down on the one yard line and the team could have been stopped and held to 3 or went on 4th and got stopped. The Leodis fumble, there could have been a turnover the next play or a 3 and out and the Chiefs drove the field and scored anyway.

Chandler and Woods were both open and Orton missed them.

They are all coulda, shoulda and wouldas. Each contributed to the loss equally.

except brown ended up in the back of the endzone thanks to the momentum.

i'm just saying, if we are ranking biggest failures, fumbling from the 2 when you end up 8 yards deep in the endzone is a big one. and he's known as a fumbler, so it's an issue for him.

i'm not an "orton is the man" guy. i think he's good enough to try to break the drought, but i know next year this team is very strange. the d may have peaked, may lose people due to contracts, and the O is still a huge questionmark with no long time qb.

but for this year, they did enough to win and a couple bone headed fumbles killed it. Orton has responsibility, but even in his poor game,the bills were right there to win it.

[ublinkwescore]

blaming orton is ridiculous. bryce brown's fumble is what cost us this game - even if he secures the ball and slows down to do so, we still get a field goal, 16-17 chiefs at that point - we got to with in field goal range on our second to last possession - that would have made it 19-17, and the chiefs would be trying to execute the play we had called to finish the game... Orton wasn't perfect, yes, he did miss some open receivers, but EVERY qb out there does. Orton did enough to win this game, he distributed the ball to enough people, how many passes were dropped in the endzone?

[Mr. Pink]

This is by far the dumbest post of the year.

What part of Brown fumbling the ball do you not get. Even if he doesn't get in th endzone as you argue above it would have been three points. Than McKelvin gave them great field position for the 7 points they got.

Orton completed 60% of his passes, had a TD and no interceptions. The loss is his fault after Brown fumbles a for sure TD and McKelvin gives away a TD?? We lost by 4 points but we gave away 14. Do the math.

Just plain stupid.

If he hits Chandler or Woods near the endzone, the Brown fumble is negated and they have 7 points instead of the 3 they got. Which means that last possession they're driving for a game winning FG not TD or bust.

If he hits both passes, the Bills win handily.

How are those plays not as important to the outcome of the game?

Any of those 4 plays happen differently and the Bills either likely win the game or they definitely win the game. Each equally contributed to the L.

[Fletch]

blaming orton is ridiculous. bryce brown's fumble is what cost us this game - even if he secures the ball and slows down to do so, we still get a field goal, 16-17 chiefs at that point - we got to with in field goal range on our second to last possession - that would have made it 19-17, and the chiefs would be trying to execute the play we had called to finish the game... Orton wasn't perfect, yes, he did miss some open receivers, but EVERY qb out there does. Orton did enough to win this game, he distributed the ball to enough people, how many passes were dropped in the endzone?

One can point the finger at any number of things no doubt, but at the end of the game when the game was on the line, the mistake was Orton's.

We once again had the ball in the red zone and couldn't do anything with it. The play calling did its job, Watkins got open, but Orton underthrew it.

Only one team put up more yardage against KC this season and yet we scored more points than only two of their opponents, the Jets and Rams. Orton could have done much more during the game too than leave us with only 13 points at home.

Brown as many point out here, is a known key fumbler. At some point going into the 4th quarter with only 6, 10, 13, and 14 points on the board as has happened in four of five of Orton's starts is going to be pinned on Orton.

Everyone thought that Orton would be an improvement, even me, but clearly the points simply have not come. Without that unusual Jets games spiking the stats we've scored less with Orton in there than with Manuel. I'm hardly saying put Manuel back in, he's a bust imo, but Orton isn't accomplishing what we'd hoped.

The more I think about it the more I think that we're pretty fortunate not to be 3-6 right now.

[feldspar]

Actually that was a legit call. The ref had no choice there as the rule is very explicit. Even our own coaches gave him an earful when he came off.

I disagree completely.

I think that what happened was that the refs saws Aaron Williams dive at the sliding QB and did not realize that he didn't actually hit him, really. I'm sure that these things are not easy to decipher in real time. It was stupid from him to that, without a doubt, but that was not REALLY a penalty at all. Would have been equally rough if Williams just touched him with two hands.

I think that calls like this should be challengable. Too much control in the ref's hands, and like I said, it happens pretty fast.

[trapezeus]

in terms of bad penalties, chandler converted a 3rd and something in the middle of the fourth. and he got called for PI. 3rd and 8, he converts, but they move it back to 3rd and 18. It was the text book, gronk push off. Not even. It was a light hand fight if anything. That is precisely the crap that aggrevates me of the 31 teams that play and the rules that are observed and what is observed for the pats.

[better days]

blaming orton is ridiculous. bryce brown's fumble is what cost us this game - even if he secures the ball and slows down to do so, we still get a field goal, 16-17 chiefs at that point - we got to with in field goal range on our second to last possession - that would have made it 19-17, and the chiefs would be trying to execute the play we had called to finish the game... Orton wasn't perfect, yes, he did miss some open receivers, but EVERY qb out there does. Orton did enough to win this game, he distributed the ball to enough people, how many passes were dropped in the endzone?

I agree, Orton did not lose the game.

But he had the chance to win it & couldn't get the job done.

He is as I said before, a mediocre QB.

If the Bills lose to the Fins on Thursday, I want EJ back in at QB.

There would be no more reason to play Orton with a 5-5 record & the upcoming schedule.

[TacklingDummy]

1.) The Brown fumble in through the endzone. Would've sealed the victory, IMO.

2.) McKelvin's fumble. The Chiefs couldn't move the ball worth a damn vs the Bills D. Leodis should've been instructed to fair catch the ball at that point in the game.

Please stop blaming Orton. Yeah he missed some reads and throws, but if those two careless mistakes don't happen, the Bills win handily.

I'm just as pissed as the next guy that they pissed that game away, but Orton was not the reason they lost. Far from it.

Brown's fumble is the only reason the Bills lost.
If he doesn't fumble the game turns into a blowout.

[DraftBoy]

Yeah he didn't play his best game, but he didn't fumble a sure TD through the back of the endzone. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve blame, but I came here yesterday and saw about 20 threads saying he sucks and EJ needs to be back starting. It's depressing enough watching them blow a game they dominated, coming here after a loss was a huge mistake. I'll admit that.

Also, why the fudge were all 4 attempts from the 15 thrown into the endzone? Why not try to pick up a first down? They were gaining 5 yards almost every time they ran the ball up to that point. Or hey, why not throw another screen to Brown. Or a shuffle pass.

Playcalling or Orton, or both need to answer for that cluster bleep.

Fair enough, you're OP just seemed to be excusing his mistakes to highlight those of others.

[JoeMama]

1.) The Brown fumble in through the endzone. Would've sealed the victory, IMO.

2.) McKelvin's fumble. The Chiefs couldn't move the ball worth a damn vs the Bills D. Leodis should've been instructed to fair catch the ball at that point in the game.

Please stop blaming Orton. Yeah he missed some reads and throws, but if those two careless mistakes don't happen, the Bills win handily.

I'm just as pissed as the next guy that they pissed that game away, but Orton was not the reason they lost. Far from it.

Kyle Orton gets a gameday goat nonetheless.

He didn't uphold his end of the bargain as a starter on Sunday. He's in there to make the accurate throws that EJ can't. He whiffed on some key passes we really needed.

Orton will bounce back, I'm sure. But he doesn't get a free pass for the Chiefs game. Even if there are other players more worthy of blame, there's plenty to go around.

[gebobs]

Actually that was a legit call. The ref had no choice there as the rule is very explicit. Even our own coaches gave him an earful when he came off.

I thought there were a lot of bad calls, but on further review it appears the refs got them right. Like when Henderson flinched on 4-and-inches.

The worst call IMHO opinion was the OPI on Chandler for pushing off and the non-call (the next play?) when Hogan was blasted well out of bounds.

[better days]

I thought there were a lot of bad calls, but on further review it appears the refs got them right. Like when Henderson flinched on 4-and-inches.

The worst call IMHO opinion was the OPI on Chandler for pushing off and the non-call (the next play?) when Hogan was blasted well out of bounds.

LMAO. First you said the refs got the calls right, then you point out two glaring calls they got WRONG.

And on the Chandler call, his helmet was coming off his head.

At the VERY LEAST, that should have been offsetting penalties on that play.

[gebobs]

LMAO. First you said the refs got the calls right, then you point out two glaring calls they got WRONG.
I was referring to the many OTHER calls I thought they got wrong. Sorry if that confused you.

[gebobs]

LMAO. First you said the refs got the calls right, then you point out two glaring calls they got WRONG.
I was referring to the many OTHER calls I thought they got wrong. Sorry if that confused you.

Edit: I thought there were a lot of bad calls, but on further review it appears the refs got MOST OF them right.

Happy?

[better days]

I was referring to the many OTHER calls I thought they got wrong. Sorry if that confused you.

Edit: I thought there were a lot of bad calls, but on further review it appears the refs got MOST OF them right.

Happy?


Mundane calls that did not affect the outcome of the game they got right.

IMPORTANT CALLS that had a HUGE IMPACT on the game, they got WRONG.

[gebobs]

Mundane calls that did not affect the outcome of the game they got right.

IMPORTANT CALLS that had a HUGE IMPACT on the game, they got WRONG.

The Henderson false start was a mundane call that didn't affect the game? Mkay.

[gebobs]

I think that what happened was that the refs saws Aaron Williams dive at the sliding QB and did not realize that he didn't actually hit him, really.
He did hit him. It was a glancing blow, but he hit Smith nonetheless. However, it appeared he made an effort to avoid contact.

I hate that rule. What do you do to defend a running QB? You have to make a split decision. Either you go for the tackle and risk taking a penalty or you let up and risk Smith going around you.

[gebobs]

Incidentally, here is the rule on a slide (http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/10_Rule7_BallInPlay_DeadBall_Scrimm.pdf).

Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.

(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by
a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is
not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by
driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.

(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before
contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his
slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.

Bad call by Note 1. Not sure about Note 2. No replay available on NFL.com.

[psubills62]

Orton deserves a certain amount of criticism, but those two fumbles led directly to a 14 point swing. There are any number of things that need to be improved, but those are the most prominent "direct causes" for the loss.

[gebobs]

Orton deserves a certain amount of criticism, but those two fumbles led directly to a 14 point swing. There are any number of things that need to be improved, but those are the most prominent "direct causes" for the loss.

Orton deserves to be called out. He was garbage the entire game. Everyone was talking about how their DBs were dog crap and he never really tested them. I swear to god, the refs had to announce that half his incompletions were not grounding because they were "in the area" of the receiver. I was surprised some of them weren't flagged.

The turnovers sucked and Brown's was especially aggravating. But you know, we were due for one of those. Twice before already this season, the Bills have come close to fumbling through the end zone: Sammy and I think McDumbass trying to dive for a pick 6.

[better days]

The Henderson false start was a mundane call that didn't affect the game? Mkay.

NO. It was a BIG IMPACT on the game.

[trapezeus]

it seemed like orton threw the ball into the ground at least 4-5 times because plays were totally read before he could do anything else.

again, that points to coaching. don't have a limited number of plays that plays are easily blown up repeatedly. have enough of a mix in your play calling that a team shouldn't see the allignment and know that watkins bubble is the only play out of that set.

[BertSquirtgum]

He was on the 3 with 3 KC players around him. The KC player went for the strip and not the tackle and guessed right. He goes for the tackle instead there's no guarantee Brown goes in to score dragging the defender in with him or breaking the tackle.

Idiot post

[Mr. Pink]

Idiot post

Excellent contribution to a football discussion as usual from you.

[BertSquirtgum]

blaming orton is ridiculous. bryce brown's fumble is what cost us this game - even if he secures the ball and slows down to do so, we still get a field goal, 16-17 chiefs at that point - we got to with in field goal range on our second to last possession - that would have made it 19-17, and the chiefs would be trying to execute the play we had called to finish the game... Orton wasn't perfect, yes, he did miss some open receivers, but EVERY qb out there does. Orton did enough to win this game, he distributed the ball to enough people, how many passes were dropped in the endzone?

Actually. It would have been 16-10. The defense even held the Chiefs to nothing after the Brown fumble. It was after a Leodis touchdown when the game really turned. Leodis' fumble was much worse.

[BertSquirtgum]

Excellent contribution to a football discussion as usual from you.

Someone has to point out how stupid your arguments are. No wonder you're still negative after 5 years.

[Mr. Pink]

Someone has to point out how stupid your arguments are. No wonder you're still negative after 5 years.

I will be negative til the day this message board closes. Why? Because internet rep is about as important as anything you ever post which is to say not at all.

[BertSquirtgum]

I will be negative til the day this message board closes. Why? Because internet rep is about as important as anything you ever post which is to say not at all.

Idiot post

[WagonCircler]

1.) The Brown fumble in through the endzone. Would've sealed the victory, IMO.

2.) McKelvin's fumble. The Chiefs couldn't move the ball worth a damn vs the Bills D. Leodis should've been instructed to fair catch the ball at that point in the game.

Please stop blaming Orton. Yeah he missed some reads and throws, but if those two careless mistakes don't happen, the Bills win handily.

I'm just as pissed as the next guy that they pissed that game away, but Orton was not the reason they lost. Far from it.

As much as I like the guy, I have to also blame Chandler a little bit.

I know a football bounces in tricky ways, and I know he had to be concerned about keeping his feet in bounds, but come on. You are a receiver. You have to make that play.

I think of it as a third fumble.

[gebobs]

NO. It was a BIG IMPACT on the game.
Since that was an example of a call they got right, I don't understand your statement: "Mundane calls that did not affect the outcome of the game they got right."

[HHURRICANE]

I disagree completely.

I think that what happened was that the refs saws Aaron Williams dive at the sliding QB and did not realize that he didn't actually hit him, really. I'm sure that these things are not easy to decipher in real time. It was stupid from him to that, without a doubt, but that was not REALLY a penalty at all. Would have been equally rough if Williams just touched him with two hands.

I think that calls like this should be challengable. Too much control in the ref's hands, and like I said, it happens pretty fast.

You realize he doesn't have to touch him for it to be a penalty?