BS Calls

[bf1]

How about the false start and the offensive pass interference on Chandler?

I don't have a history of complaining about the refs, but those 2 hurt bad.

[chernobylwraiths]

refs were reletively absent from this game, but that OPI really hurt and of course at a pretty crucial time.

the false start was a penalty, even though he flinched very little, he did flinch.

Nothing else blatent that I saw.

[gebobs]

The non-call on the hit on Hogan out of bounds. The unnecessary roughness on Williams was weak at best though I can appreciate how hard it is to make that call. I wouldn't be against reviewing calls like that.

Nonetheless, the Bills should have been able to overcome those. They, and we, have none to blame but their own bumbling. Orton was stone cold. Lawson couldn't hold the edge on both TDs. Brown and McFumbles. Henderson's flinch. Those are my five goats for the game.

[Mr. Pink]

The only egregious miss I saw was the late hit on Hogan out of bounds.

Every game has ticky tack calls like the Chandler PI that some games are called and some games aren't.

[Buffalogic]

Henderson false start was pretty chintzy.

[OpIv37]

I hated the personal foul call on Wiliams. He went for the tackle before Smith started the slide and did everything he could to not make contact. it basically means "if the qb gets within 2 yards of the sticks, stop playing D because if you try to stop him and he slides you'll get a penalty."

[OpIv37]

And while I can't blame the refs in a game where the Bills made so many mistakes, if the refs even get two of those calls right, the Bills might have won despite the mistakes.

This game proves that bad officiating can affect the outcome. I'd be much madder about it if I thought the Bills deserved to win, but it's not the refs' fault the Bills only managed 3 points on 6 red zone trips.

[Fletch]

How about the false start and the offensive pass interference on Chandler?

I don't have a history of complaining about the refs, but those 2 hurt bad.

Is this supposed to be why we lost?

I would suggest that a good place to start in assessing the reason why we lost is in the fact that we scored only 13 points.

Sure, Brown fumbled, but we've gotten those bounces more than they've hurt us. See the Chicago, Detroit, and Jets games. We really cannot complain this season about not getting the games that could have gone either way, we're 3-1 in those.

This offense is anemic under Orton as another poster put it last week. I don't know why since Orton's better than Manuel, other than to suggest that Orton's always been a poor red zone QB, which is probably why no teams wanted him. I should have caught that when we signed him but didn't. The FO definitely should have known and Marrone too.

Either way, the offense needs to start putting up more points. 13 and 17 points, even 22 against the teams that we face coming up won't be enough to win more than a game or two. Can't count on opponents making 6 turnovers so that we can score 43 again this season.

It's not just coaching either, after Watkins we don't have any playmakers. None, despite the fact that many people bought into the fact that our RBs are elite and that our WRs are the best in the league or even close to either. Our RBs are below average and so are our WRs as groups.

[Fletch]

And while I can't blame the refs in a game where the Bills made so many mistakes, if the refs even get two of those calls right, the Bills might have won despite the mistakes.

This game proves that bad officiating can affect the outcome. I'd be much madder about it if I thought the Bills deserved to win, but it's not the refs' fault the Bills only managed 3 points on 6 red zone trips.

I thought it was 4 red zone trips, but either way we suck in the red zone, now officially ranked 32nd. We're in the bottom 25% of the league in 1st downs/game and 3rd conversions. The only thing keeping us from being ranked much worse than 23rd in yards per play is the Jets game.

Scoring may pick up although I wouldn't know why, but we'll have to double our scoring production to have a chance against some of the teams we face in December.

Every remaining team on our schedule except for the Jets and Raiders averages more ppg than we've scored in every game but the Jets game under Orton.

I had no idea that it was possible for a QB to be so good between the 20s but so sucky in the red zone.

[trapezeus]

next year we should have a "BS calls" thread and just list each questionable call from each game, the situation it was called in, the score, the down and distance and then the down and distance as result of the call.

it would be fun to look back after a full season of all the irritating calls and specifically the ones like the chandler PI which is text book gronk. that's how he gets open on third down vs every team and its never called.

[gebobs]

text book gronk. that's how he gets open on third down vs every team and its never called.

First one I looked at...from the Bears game.

17176

[Goobylal]

Bowe was tossing CB's aside and not a single call. Chandler barely touches the guy on a crucial play and it's a penalty. Same with the false start on Henderson. It happened 2 seconds before the Chefs player goes offsides, but they wait until he does to call it. And the PF on Williams was as pathetic as the PF on Hughes for slapping a teammate in the Pats game.

[BertSquirtgum]

I hated the personal foul call on Wiliams. He went for the tackle before Smith started the slide and did everything he could to not make contact. it basically means "if the qb gets within 2 yards of the sticks, stop playing D because if you try to stop him and he slides you'll get a penalty."

A truly awful call for sure.

[Goobylal]

I saw the Henderson flinch from another angle and it was legit.

[YardRat]

I don't have a beef with the AW call, he led with his helmet if I remember correctly. The call on Chandler was ticky-tack, and I DO take issue with that considering the timing, the fact that the refs were letting the guys play most of the game, and Bowe did much worse on a few occasions. The false start on Henderson was definitely the tiniest of flinches, the thing I don't understand about that is some teams get away with a silent count where the guard blatantly reaches over and taps the center to signal the snap and that's OK, but a literal muscle twitch is against the rules?

[Goobylal]

AW didn't touch Smith. There was no foul. Just because he went at him, and didn't connect, isn't a valid reason.

[gebobs]

The rule states that all offensive players must be stationary at the snap (excepting one back who may be in motion parallel to the LOS) and no abrupt movements are allowed after assuming a set position.

Henderson's twitch is just such an abrupt movement and obviously caused the KC line to jump.

It's pretty obvious that our offense had no intention of running a play and were only intent on drawing a penalty instead of going for the few inches. Contrast that to KC who had a play, didn't worry about gaining advantage from penalty, and made us look like their *****es.

[gebobs]

AW didn't touch Smith. There was no foul. Just because he went at him, and didn't connect, isn't a valid reason.
He did make glancing contact, shoulder to shoulder, but it should not have been considered unnecessary roughness. IIRC, Smith waited until the last second and Williams was going for the tackle as Smith slid. The rules are explicit with regard to this.

[YardRat]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/29969/nfl-rulebook-unnecessary-roughness

Note: If in doubt about a roughness call or potentially dangerous tactics, the covering official(s) should always call unnecessary roughness.

Of course, we all know that if it was Patrick Chung or Tavon Wilson launching at a sliding Orton, the flag would be picked up and the official would proclaim no penalty because of the lack of contact.

[ServoBillieves]

If the false start was for Henderson, why wasn't it blown when his right leg twitched instead of when the guy on his left blew up the center of the line?

[DraftBoy]

That roughness call on Williams has been called that way all season. If the QB even begins to slide and you hit him you're getting flagged. As soon as he went down after him the whole stadium knew a flag was coming.

[gebobs]

If the false start was for Henderson, why wasn't it blown when his right leg twitched instead of when the guy on his left blew up the center of the line?
What is the bar for acceptable reaction time? If the reaction time was unacceptable to you, does that absolve the flinch?

What's your take? That Henderson flinched, but the refs didn't see it and only called the penalty on the Bills to make them lose?

[gebobs]

That roughness call on Williams has been called that way all season. If the QB even begins to slide and you hit him you're getting flagged. As soon as he went down after him the whole stadium knew a flag was coming.

The rules state otherwise.

[DraftBoy]

The rules state otherwise.

The rule clearly states otherwise or your interpretation of what it means differs?

Section 2, Article 1, Subsection d

[gebobs]

The rule clearly states otherwise or your interpretation of what it means differs?

Section 2, Article 1, Subsection d

Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.

(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by
a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is
not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by
driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.

(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before
contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his
slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.

Bad call by Note 1. Not sure about Note 2. No replay available on NFL.com.

It was a bad call, but one that I cannot really fault the refs for making. Such calls should be reviewable. All 15-yarders should be reviewable.

[DraftBoy]

Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.

(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by
a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is
not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by
driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.

(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before
contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his
slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.

Bad call by Note 1. Not sure about Note 2. No replay available on NFL.com.

It was a bad call, but one that I cannot really fault the refs for making. Such calls should be reviewable. All 15-yarders should be reviewable.

Id have to see the replay again frame by frame but my recollection does not seem to recall that Williams had already left his feet when Smith began his slide by the rule that contact is then avoidable.

In the end we're talking about milliseconds to react but it's been called that way all year long.

[ServoBillieves]

What is the bar for acceptable reaction time? If the reaction time was unacceptable to you, does that absolve the flinch?

What's your take? That Henderson flinched, but the refs didn't see it and only called the penalty on the Bills to make them lose?

Why would the referees intentionally make the Bills lose? Are you implying that there's a hidden agenda against Buffalo?

My question is pretty simple; We're talking a full second here, mind you, from the flinch to the player going full speed. That, of course, is if they're saying the defender was drawn. If not, and if the penalty was a false start, why wait to blow the whistle for when the KC player is already mid-contact a few moments after Henderson flinched?

[Goobylal]

Williams didn't even touch Smith. Therefore it wasn't a foul.

[gebobs]

Why would the referees intentionally make the Bills lose? Are you implying that there's a hidden agenda against Buffalo?
Nope.


My question is pretty simple; We're talking a full second here, mind you, from the flinch to the player going full speed.
Is that right? A full second. Hmmm...I rather doubt it. He flinched, the KC players jumped, the flag was thrown.


That, of course, is if they're saying the defender was drawn. If not, and if the penalty was a false start, why wait to blow the whistle for when the KC player is already mid-contact a few moments after Henderson flinched?
They aren't "waiting". Referees have reaction times like everyone else. And you're assertion that it was somehow later than should be expected is completely unsubstantiated.

[gebobs]

Id have to see the replay again frame by frame but my recollection does not seem to recall that Williams had already left his feet when Smith began his slide by the rule that contact is then avoidable.

In the end we're talking about milliseconds to react but it's been called that way all year long.

I agree, it is a split second call and that makes it likely that bad calls will be made. And with the leeway given to qbs, such calls should be reviewed just for that reason. Such rules give running QBs an inordinate advantage.

Had they reviewed the call, they would have seen that, though Williams made contact, it was not to the head. It was a glancing brush, shoulder to shoulder.

[cookie G]

Note: Defenders are required to treat a sliding runner as they would a runner who is down by contact.

(1) A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide. This does not mean that all contact by
a defender is illegal. If a defender has already committed himself, and the contact is unavoidable, it is
not a foul unless the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by
driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner.

(2) A runner who desires to take advantage of this protection is responsible for starting his slide before
contact by a defensive player is imminent; if he does not, and waits until the last moment to begin his
slide, he puts himself in jeopardy of being contacted.

Bad call by Note 1. Not sure about Note 2. No replay available on NFL.com.

It was a bad call, but one that I cannot really fault the refs for making. Such calls should be reviewable. All 15-yarders should be reviewable.

Alex Smith began his slide a good 4 yards away from AW. he began it at the 49, AS was at the 45. He launched helmet first at him with an elbow out.

Easy call. Stupid play. Especially when you know the intent of the rule.

People can call it BS, or a BS rule, but its meant to prevent career ending head injuries and prevent things like this:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/iIrzOrPUfX4?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If you look at that play, which many called dirty, it was a lot closer than AW's attempted hit on Alex Smith. The only reason he didn't clock his head off was because AS was already flat on the ground and AW went over him.

Sorry...the refs will err on the side of safety with a rule like that.

And this wasn't an error.

[gebobs]

Alex Smith began his slide a good 4 yards away from AW. he began it at the 49, AS was at the 45. He launched helmet first at him with an elbow out.
None of that has any bearing on the legality of the play unless Smith went to the slide before Williams committed to the hit. When I saw the replay on the scoreboard, I didn't even think of that. All I saw was glancing shoulder-to-shoulder contact and thought that was enough to make the call. It's not.


People can call it BS, or a BS rule, but its meant to prevent career ending head injuries
I understand that. Williams never touched Smith's head. Not even close. No one wants QBs to be injured but for crying out loud they can't get a free walk and that's specifically in the rule.


If you look at that play, which many called dirty, it was a lot closer than AW's attempted hit on Alex Smith.
Huh? Closer than what? That's shoulder to helmet driving the head into the turf. Nothing even remotely close to that happened to Smith. Not that Williams couldn't have, but he probably pulled up to avoid as much contact as possible...which he did completely other than wiping jerseys a bit.


Sorry...the refs will err on the side of safety with a rule like that.
No need to apologize, I understand that too. And the fact that you understand that they will "err" is my point entirely. Williams avoided contact yet still get penalized. A review of that call would, if allowed, probably overturn based on the language of the rule.

[pmoon6]

The rule states that all offensive players must be stationary at the snap (excepting one back who may be in motion parallel to the LOS) and no abrupt movements are allowed after assuming a set position.

Henderson's twitch is just such an abrupt movement and obviously caused the KC line to jump.

It's pretty obvious that our offense had no intention of running a play and were only intent on drawing a penalty instead of going for the few inches. Contrast that to KC who had a play, didn't worry about gaining advantage from penalty, and made us look like their *****es.No it didn't, but I'll look at it again. The opposite side DT and DE were the ones that broke the line of scrimmage. They couldn't possibly have seen Henderson's miniscule twitch.

Of course, that happens to Manning, Brady, Rodgers or Brees and the laundry stays in the refs pockets. Then the pundits and commentators get to say what monumentally great QB's they are. "Ohhhhh, did you just see how masterfully Manning manipulated the Defense?"

Uh Huh.

NJL, National Joke League.

[pmoon6]

Oh yeah, Alex Smith is a pussy. Didn't even get touched and gets up crying and lobbying for a call.

If that's what's going to happen, I'm all for going at the QB's knees. Fine me, whatever, but then these over protected prima donnas can actually say they're real football players.

[gebobs]

No it didn't, but I'll look at it again. The opposite side DT and DE were the ones that broke the line of scrimmage. They couldn't possibly have seen Henderson's miniscule twitch.
Regardless, whether his movement pulled them off or not, it preceded theirs.

[pmoon6]

Regardless, whether his movement pulled them off or not, it preceded theirs.Like I said, I'll look at it again, but the point is that the officials are not consistent in an effort to artificially create an advantage for the marquee teams and QBs'.

You can't look at the disparity of calls league wide and not conclude anything other than the system is BS, either by intent or simple incompetence. Maybe that's why the NFL resists hiring full time officials. Part timers are easier to control.

[gebobs]

Like I said, I'll look at it again, but the point is that the officials are not consistent in an effort to artificially create an advantage for the marquee teams and QBs'.

You can't look at the disparity of calls league wide and not conclude anything other than the system is BS, either by intent or simple incompetence. Maybe that's why the NFL resists hiring full time officials. Part timers are easier to control.
The refs calls are controlled by the league to make calls benefitting certain teams? Lol...no. That's crazy, loserville talk that rivals shiva's 911 tinfoil hat nonsense. Rare is the game where the calls are going to be 100% correct and rarer still will it be that there won't be some disparity. But that doesn't imply that it's intentional. It might have been possible to do that 20 years ago (not that I think it was), but now the officials are watched like hawks, not just by the league, but by everyone with a television who has the benefit of myriad replays.

The Bills didn't need any help in losing that game. They did that all by themselves. By and large, all the call the refs made were legitimate. And even though I object to the UR call on Williams, I fully concede that the officials are going to make that call 99% of the time. The offense is a bunch of bumbling fools. Getting called for a false start at home is inexcusable. The Bills had two, killing two drives in the process.

[pmoon6]

The refs calls are controlled by the league to make calls benefitting certain teams? Lol...no. That's crazy, loserville talk that rivals shiva's 911 tinfoil hat nonsense. Rare is the game where the calls are going to be 100% correct and rarer still will it be that there won't be some disparity. But that doesn't imply that it's intentional. It might have been possible to do that 20 years ago (not that I think it was), but now the officials are watched like hawks, not just by the league, but by everyone with a television who has the benefit of myriad replays.

The Bills didn't need any help in losing that game. They did that all by themselves. By and large, all the call the refs made were legitimate. And even though I object to the UR call on Williams, I fully concede that the officials are going to make that call 99% of the time. The offense is a bunch of bumbling fools. Getting called for a false start at home is inexcusable. The Bills had two, killing two drives in the process.Why is Denvers' Offensive line allowed to blatantly hold on virtually every play with nary a call?

You mean the "bumbling fools" that pulled out two wins in the final seconds. Snatched victory from the jaws of defeat? I guess they have to do that every week to satisfy some.

Like I said before, it was a good game by two premier defenses. The one that made the fewer mistakes won. I'll repeat another thing I've said often. You and others like you discount that the other team has 11 pros that want to win as well, but you magnify our mistakes instead of giving credit to the KC defense and special teams. I don't know many players that could have held on given the hit that McKelvin took. The four shots in the endzone at the end of the game were all well defended, but you want to blame our guys for not coming up with a play.

I won't post the Teddy Roosevelt quote again just say this;

Those who can't do, criticize. Maybe you should strap on a helmet and do it like it should be done.

[gebobs]

Why is Denvers' Offensive line allowed to blatantly hold on virtually every play with nary a call?
Why is Buffalo's OL allowed to blatantly hold on virtually every play with nary a call?


You mean the "bumbling fools" that pulled out two wins in the final seconds. Snatched victory from the jaws of defeat? I guess they have to do that every week to satisfy some.

The very same.


I don't know many players that could have held on given the hit that McKelvin took.
What hit? He was getting dragged down by Sean Smith, got careless with the ball, and Anthony Sherman punched it out.

17178


The four shots in the endzone at the end of the game were all well defended, but you want to blame our guys for not coming up with a play.
Defended? Who needed to defend any of them? They were way off their mark.


Those who can't do, criticize. Maybe you should strap on a helmet and do it like it should be done.
You're going to play that game, huh? I'll remember that any time you choose to criticise. Cripes, this place would be tumbleweeds if the only those who "do" could criticize.

[cookie G]

None of that has any bearing on the legality of the play unless Smith went to the slide before Williams committed to the hit.

He had already began to slide when AW leapt. You can clearly see his body leaning backward before AW leapt at him. The one of the key terms is..."begins". When AW started to leap, Smith was already going down.

On that play, none of the rest of the rule has any bearing on the play. He is required to pull up. He didn't. It didn't need to be a head shot, or helmet to helmet.



When I saw the replay on the scoreboard, I didn't even think of that. All I saw was glancing shoulder-to-shoulder contact and thought that was enough to make the call. It's not.

And now THAT'S something that has no bearing on the play. Penalties aren't called based on whether you thought of something while watching the scoreboard.

"Upon further review, the penalty is overturned, because Gebobs hadn't thought of it."

[gebobs]

He had already began to slide when AW leapt. You can clearly see his body leaning backward before AW leapt at him. The one of the key terms is..."begins". When AW started to leap, Smith was already going down.
I'll have to look at it when I get home later this week. Until then, I'll take your word on it. Does anyone have video?


And now THAT'S something that has no bearing on the play. Penalties aren't called based on whether you thought of something while watching the scoreboard.

"Upon further review, the penalty is overturned, because Gebobs hadn't thought of it."
If that's what you think I'm saying, you must have a really low opinion of me, because that's really, really, really stupid.

All I was saying was when I was watching the replay, I wasn't looking or when Williams engaged relative to Smith's slide. All I was looking at was the contact. That is, I was admitting that I hadn't considered all the aspects of what construes unnecessary roughness.

[DraftBoy]

I agree, it is a split second call and that makes it likely that bad calls will be made. And with the leeway given to qbs, such calls should be reviewed just for that reason. Such rules give running QBs an inordinate advantage.

Had they reviewed the call, they would have seen that, though Williams made contact, it was not to the head. It was a glancing brush, shoulder to shoulder.

I don't think the call should be reviewable, and where he hit Smith is not important since we already established the issue is with the fact that a sliding player is considered a dead ball the moment he hits the ground.

As Cookie points out that's 4 yards prior to AW. Easy call, he deserved the flag.

[HHURRICANE]

The only egregious miss I saw was the late hit on Hogan out of bounds.

Every game has ticky tack calls like the Chandler PI that some games are called and some games aren't.

Wow, I hated your other post but you got this one right.

I agree.

[trapezeus]

should we be bumping this because of the poorly called game yesterday?

1. woods holding
2. orton grounding
3. gilmore's pass interference
4. the TD where his knee was down
5. hughes' unsportsmanlike

5 truly terrible calls is worth noting. even if it happened to the dolphins, it should be noted how bad it was.