The Marrone dilemma

[mightysimi]

I keep hearing in virtually every other thread that all of our players suck so if they all suck doesn't it stand to reason that Marrone is getting the most out of these guys which shows in a winning record (so far)? I'm not down on Marrone and Whaley as some are. I think he has done a serviceable job and that he continues to grow and learn. I think he will become a better coach. Plus, I am so sick of changing coaches/systems every few years.

Even Whaley who some have criticized for making the Watkins trade IMO has done reasonably well. I also think the last few drafts have been very productive past the first round (Woods, Alonso, Brown).

There is no doubt that we have more talent/depth top to bottom than at any time in the past decade. Picking up Dixon/Brown now seems like a good move considering the health of our other RB's. Whaley might have panicked when he made the move for Watkins but at least the player is going to turn out to be good maybe even great. The last few times we traded up haven't exactly set the league on fire.

I'm sure I'm the minority here but I'm for Whaley and Marrone to stay.

[Fixxxer]

They should stay and if Pegula is smart he sits down with both Whaley and Marrone and convince them that the offense needs to get better and that they can count with the resources needed to make it happen.

[Fletch]

I keep hearing in virtually every other thread that all of our players suck so if they all suck doesn't it stand to reason that Marrone is getting the most out of these guys which shows in a winning record (so far)? I'm not down on Marrone and Whaley as some are. I think he has done a serviceable job and that he continues to grow and learn. I think he will become a better coach. Plus, I am so sick of changing coaches/systems every few years.

Even Whaley who some have criticized for making the Watkins trade IMO has done reasonably well. I also think the last few drafts have been very productive past the first round (Woods, Alonso, Brown).

There is no doubt that we have more talent/depth top to bottom than at any time in the past decade. Picking up Dixon/Brown now seems like a good move considering the health of our other RB's. Whaley might have panicked when he made the move for Watkins but at least the player is going to turn out to be good maybe even great. The last few times we traded up haven't exactly set the league on fire.

I'm sure I'm the minority here but I'm for Whaley and Marrone to stay.

Here's the thing, and there are going to be a whole bunch of personal attacks after I post this, but think about what Whaley has done. Might help by listing it all one way (positive) or the other (negative).

What were Whaley's credentials prior to being lured away from Pittsburgh? For starters, he was in a much lesser role and people here and the media made a mountain out of that in pre-assessing him as the next great GM in the league. OK, fine, but if he was that responsible for all of Pittsburgh's good moves in a significantly lesser role there, usually simply a scout, then why doesn't he take the heat for the team's moves here in a role as Asst. GM and Director of Pro Personnel and finally as GM here? I mean he's been the top dog for personnel since 2010. People can say otherwise, but what they can't do is tout his credentials in some lesser role elsewhere while dismissing all the failures in those roles here.

But I'll refresh our memory as to our records since 2010 despite it not being necessary: 4-12, 6-10, 6-10, 6-10, and what, 7-9 likely, 8-8 tops this season? Our situation with him in charge of player personnel moves has not changed significantly in five seasons.

Either way, yes, he's made some good moves, but so has every GM. He's also lost some players that set team records here and allowed them to leave disrupting chemistry here. It takes more than having brought a couple of good players on board. Many GMs do that. But the overall direction hasn't really improved, and at the most key position we're among the worst teams at QB. Our offense is currently scoring no more points than last season's anemic offense.

There have been gains and losses here on Whaley's watch but the team's overall performance hasn't changed much. We're no more competitive this season than we've been over the last three, and for those arguing that we are if so it's not significant the extent to which we might arguably be.

But Whaley took a swing and whiffed big time on Manuel, which not only costs us but also questions his judgment, especially given the wealth of info out there, now having been acknowledged by this forum, on why Manuel would never pan out in the NFL.

Then he tries to cover his ass by sending next year's 1st and 4th to get Watkins, who has not even significantly distinguished himself from the rookie WR competition to the extent required for such a move. He's invisible in this team's biggest games. He'll be a fine WR, but we have to question Whaley's judgement on the method used to acquire him and seriously ask the question whether or not we'd have been better off with one of the other WRs that's put up comparable numbers and with our 1st and 4th still in tact for this upcoming season.

Either way, what's he gonna do this offseason without a 1st? Right now the odds are probably greatest that we finish 7-9 and if so then the draft pick will likely be in that 10th -13th range again. Only slightly lower if we can somehow manage 8-8. What are we going to do for a QB for next season much less a starting 3-down RB, and some other key positions?

Whaley's also the one that hired Marrone who in turn hired Hackett, I'm sure a point of discussion in the interview between Whaley and Marrone.

I've seen enough. You can't just pull out the positives, particularly with such monumental failures as Manuel. I also think that the reality of losing our 1st next season, much less a 1st and a mid-4th now too, is really going to hit home come draft time and if Watkins doesn't start putting some performance distance between himself and the rest of the WR rookies. Again, not that I don't want him to, I'd love it, but I don't think he's even going to get OROY honors.

Whaley's move have been a wash. That's not good for a 6-10 team. There is no evidence that he's ever going to "get it."

Those supporting Whaley and lobbying for him to stay here have no basis for complaining if/when we still don't make the playoffs next season. No one can say "yeah, but he didn't have a 1st rounder" because that's of his own making. There aren't any good QB options in free agency this offseason either. The prospects for us for next season are not good and it's because of Whaley and his decision making, not in spite of him and his decision making.

He's whiffed on both Manuel and Marrone and in attempting to cover his tracks on the former has now left us without a 1st round pick this upcoming draft. I don't know what bigger disasters he can possibly make. He even recognizes the impact of his decision on Manuel and even concedes as much that he should be looking for new work giving his having reached for Manuel like that last year. Just watch the video in my sig. So why does anyone argue with him on that? It makes no sense, even Whaley agrees and understands that.

[Fletch]

They should stay and if Pegula is smart he sits down with both Whaley and Marrone and convince them that the offense needs to get better and that they can count with the resources needed to make it happen.

What resources have we got for this offseason?

Why only those?

[Typ0]

Maroone and Whaley were bumping heads in training camp and at practices. If those conversations were about Manual starting and the need for another QB ... and then Orton starting over Manual Whaley needs to be shown the door. We hear more from Marone. I am not a fan of firing a guy every two or three years because they haven't gotten it done. I can see this is a decent football team -- even a team on the verge of being very competitive. Bringing another new staff in to switch systems again is counter productive. If we are going to do that they better have access to and be prepared to hire a top tier coach.

[WagonCircler]

Even Whaley who some have criticized for making the Watkins trade IMO has done reasonably well. I also think the last few drafts have been very productive past the first round (Woods, Alonso, Brown).

There is no doubt that we have more talent/depth top to bottom than at any time in the past decade. Picking up Dixon/Brown now seems like a good move considering the health of our other RB's. Whaley might have panicked when he made the move for Watkins but at least the player is going to turn out to be good maybe even great. The last few times we traded up haven't exactly set the league on fire.

I'm sure I'm the minority here but I'm for Whaley and Marrone to stay.

Remember in the Godfather, when Michael waited patiently, then settled all family business? He went to visit Carlo, who set up Sonny to be murdered.

"You have to answer for Santino, Carlo."

Well, Whaley needs to answer for Manuel.

Sure, Whaley has done some good things, but he has also done disastrous things, especially with high draft choices.

For decades, we've had to settle for mediocre coaches and executives, with notable few exceptions, in this franchise, thanks to an owner who was notoriously cheap when it came to paying for coaches and executives.

Now we have an owner who will back up the Brinks truck to get the best people available.

It's time we took advantage of that. We've waited 50 years.

We no longer have to settle for mediocrity.

[Fletch]

Maroone and Whaley were bumping heads in training camp and at practices. If those conversations were about Manual starting and the need for another QB ... and then Orton starting over Manual Whaley needs to be shown the door. We hear more from Marone. I am not a fan of firing a guy every two or three years because they haven't gotten it done. I can see this is a decent football team -- even a team on the verge of being very competitive. Bringing another new staff in to switch systems again is counter productive. If we are going to do that they better have access to and be prepared to hire a top tier coach.

I'm not a fan of firing coaches or GMs every two years either, but when they suck there's even less reason to keep them around.

What's the root problem here, a lack of patience, or poor hires to begin with?

I'd suggest the latter.

It's a new era, most of us realize that this front office which has lingered on because of personal relationships with Wilson is the primary problem. What better time to cut ties with the bunch and start over than a new era. This offseason is Pegula's chance. There's nothing redeemable in the front office and Marrone has not shown anything close enough to warrant giving him another shot next season, especially with the same QB issues since we have no 1st-round pick. Even with a rookie QB he's not going to do much. Not that a new coach will, but at least the new coach gets to use the season to rebuild.

This perpetual state of rebuilding weighs heavily on us all. It's time to finally have something built, which obviously isn't going to happen with Whaley running the show or Marrone coaching.

[Fletch]

Remember in the Godfather, when Michael waited patiently, then settled all family business? He went to visit Carlo, who set up Sonny to be murdered.

"You have to answer for Santino, Carlo."

Well, Whaley needs to answer for Manuel.

Sure, Whaley has done some good things, but he has also done disastrous things, especially with high draft choices.

For decades, we've had to settle for mediocre coaches and executives, with notable few exceptions, in this franchise, thanks to an owner who was notoriously cheap when it came to paying for coaches and executives.

Now we have an owner who will back up the Brinks truck to get the best people available.

It's time we took advantage of that. We've waited 50 years.

We no longer have to settle for mediocrity.

Nicely put!

[DesertFox24]

Lets fire Whaley and Marrone because of Manuel. WOW.

Whaley got us Jerry Hughes and some other very good players in the draft.

Marrone is a good coach whom other teams wanted to hire.... That is a first for us

Same with Whaley he had other offers to leave and go to other teams... Lets fire another guy people respect in the league.

No I want them to stay this year and see what they do with Pegula in charge, I want to see how our Free Agency is different and what they do with our players coming up.

Spiller is gone fine.

I want Hughes and Dareus locked up, they do that I am happy.

As for the offense not being good enough we dominated a very good Chiefs defense. Orton was off and the brown fumble chandler dropped hurt.

i get you guys are pissed about the possibility of 15 years of no playoffs but you need to remove that emotion from your decision making process. A new GM and coaching staff is not going to be a quick fix because they are going to want different players and different styles of play. As a result it will set us back and then you will want to fire him because he took a very talented team this year and got ride of players and they lost.

Marrone and Whaley have been in charge for 25 games and guess what we have gotten better. Staying the course is sometimes the best course.

[The King]

GM's miss on QB's all the time. It's the hardest transition to predict. Drafting Manuel didn't kill us because we traded back and got Kiko in the process. That's the sign of a pretty good GM IMO.

The team desperately needed a QB his hand was forced in that regard, he took a gamble but lessened the blow by getting some value back. I don't want to fire the guy for one mistake I want to see how he responds.

Unless we have a HOF coach knocking down our door to coach this team… which we don't. I want to see both guys get another year.

[mightysimi]

I would put this roster up against any of the past 13 years. How is none of that Whaley's doing? I'm not saying he is perfect, I just think what most fans care about (QB's and 1st round picks) which are front and centre in this debate. Many, many GMs (and some good ones) missed on QBs, sometimes more than once. Manuel was a bad pick. That is obvious. What would have been worse was not getting the second round pick and Alonso.

I also don't think that Marrone was a bad hire. I think he has shown at times to be a little out of his element but I don't think there is any debating that he is improved from last year. I think the players like playing for him and play hard for him. Now Hackett has been Marrone's hire. There are some good things about the offence though. I don't think it's the plays that are the problem. I do think it is execution that is most of the problem. Hackett's playcall had both Chandler and Woods open in the end zone but Orton missed them. The overall playcalling I would give a B-

The biggest thing for me is that I think this team is close. The D is real good and will only get better with Kiko back. The O is young and should develop. Changing to a high profile coach who has an established system will put us back another 3 years waiting for the right guys to get drafted and fit into the coach's new system.

Even if we get a new coach, if he doesn't immediately turn into Belicheck, people here will want to fire him anyways.

Now for a prediction I think that they survive the year if only to not put a new coach and GM in a hole without the 1st round pick to get a player for their new system.

[Fletch]

Lets fire Whaley and Marrone because of Manuel. WOW.

The irony here is that Whaley himself recognized the circumstances under which he drafted Manuel. Have you watched the brief video in my sig?

He understands that given the reach to get Manuel and given that as he is on record as admitting, that he was the one responsible for that pick, that if it didn't work out he should be looking for new work.

Meanwhile you support Whaley but disagree with him on the very point that you are insisting.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Fletch]

I would put this roster up against any of the past 13 years.

What do we have on offense? No RBs. Jackson's finished. Spiller's likely and hopefully gone. He creates more issues than he solves. Brown? Dixon? Unlike at the beginning of the season, who's lobbying now that our RBs are elite or that Brown is our future starting RB? He isn't a 3-down RB either. We don't have one with Jackson not being capable anymore.

At WR we have Watkins. Woods isn't stepping up as he should be. Hogan's OK but hardly lighting up the NFL, an OK slot guy.

TE we have nothing special. OL has similar issues to what we've had for years. We always seem to be two OL-men short regardless of where they are on the line.

DL is good as its been for a while. LBs are OK but clearly struggle in passing situations. That should become more clear as the season goes on. Our secondary isn't very good.

Not seeing it. It may be better, but not by much if it even is. Our defensive rankings have been steadily dropping over the past few weeks. That's not going to stop happening with the offensive teams we face coming up. The D may be better but our offense is pushing how bad it was when Edwards was the QB.



Now for a prediction I think that they survive the year if only to not put a new coach and GM in a hole without the 1st round pick to get a player for their new system.

Maybe, and perhaps they deserve to be put into that situation.

I don't think it's going to matter one way or another next season, I think that if they're not fired after this season then they will be after next. So I guess with the turning of the ownership page I just don't see any reasons to drag that out.

If they can put us in the playoffs with our issues at RB, QB, and WR without a 1st round pick and few options in free agency, great. I just have no faith and the opportunity for Pegula to have made his mark and separated the past from the future will be forever gone.

[Fixxxer]

What resources have we got for this offseason?

Why only those?

Resources that an owner gives his GM, a better OC for starters and better positional coaches maybe. With cap resources, re-signing Dareus and Hughes and get better up front in the OL.

[mightysimi]

What do we have on offense? No RBs. Jackson's finished. Spiller's likely and hopefully gone. He creates more issues than he solves. Brown? Dixon? Unlike at the beginning of the season, who's lobbying now that our RBs are elite or that Brown is our future starting RB? He isn't a 3-down RB either. We don't have one with Jackson not being capable anymore.

At WR we have Watkins. Woods isn't stepping up as he should be. Hogan's OK but hardly lighting up the NFL, an OK slot guy.

TE we have nothing special. OL has similar issues to what we've had for years. We always seem to be two OL-men short regardless of where they are on the line.

DL is good as its been for a while. LBs are OK but clearly struggle in passing situations. That should become more clear as the season goes on. Our secondary isn't very good.

Not seeing it. It may be better, but not by much if it even is. Our defensive rankings have been steadily dropping over the past few weeks. That's not going to stop happening with the offensive teams we face coming up. The D may be better but our offense is pushing how bad it was when Edwards was the QB.

What I mean in a game this roster wins against any of the others. IMO anyways.

The O line is a mess. They went for bigger but I don't think they thought they would be sacrificing every edge play because no one can pull. Can be servicible with at least 1 OG. WR's are young. They will get better. TE, say what you want about Chandler I think most teams would take 500 yards and 6 TD's from their TE. Could he be upgraded, absolutely. Is he better than the last 5 Jabronies before him. Oh yeah.

The DL is excellent. The LB's aren't bad. I really like the sounds of Alonso, Brown and Bradham. I think Spikes is gone. You are right about bad in coverage though. Although Kiko will help in that regard. The secondary is tough. I think Gilmore is gun shy because of all the penalties he got early on and I think no one is more suprised than him that he has 4 picks because McKelvin can't even catch a cold. A. Williams is a good safety if he's on the field but I do think they need another guy there. Not sold on Searcy or Duke.

So going back to my original point, if all of those players are bad/below average, doesn't that mean that Marrone is doing a good job of coaching up a bunch of cans?

[The King]

What do we have on offense? No RBs. Jackson's finished.
How dare you.

[Fletch]

How dare you.

LOL

Dude, I love the guy, but his days are over.

[Fletch]

Resources that an owner gives his GM, a better OC for starters and better positional coaches maybe. With cap resources, re-signing Dareus and Hughes and get better up front in the OL.

Every team has those resources. They also have a 1st round pick this season. We do not.

What resources do we have to get a serious QB?

[Fletch]

What I mean in a game this roster wins against any of the others. IMO anyways.

The O line is a mess. They went for bigger but I don't think they thought they would be sacrificing every edge play because no one can pull. Can be servicible with at least 1 OG. WR's are young. They will get better. TE, say what you want about Chandler I think most teams would take 500 yards and 6 TD's from their TE. Could he be upgraded, absolutely. Is he better than the last 5 Jabronies before him. Oh yeah.

The DL is excellent. The LB's aren't bad. I really like the sounds of Alonso, Brown and Bradham. I think Spikes is gone. You are right about bad in coverage though. Although Kiko will help in that regard. The secondary is tough. I think Gilmore is gun shy because of all the penalties he got early on and I think no one is more suprised than him that he has 4 picks because McKelvin can't even catch a cold. A. Williams is a good safety if he's on the field but I do think they need another guy there. Not sold on Searcy or Duke.

So going back to my original point, if all of those players are bad/below average, doesn't that mean that Marrone is doing a good job of coaching up a bunch of cans?

That's fair for the most part.

I will disagree about this team being more competitive than others and if it is that it is only marginally so. I think that the rest of the season will give us more of an indicator. I think that probably comes down more to D vs. O. We've had better offenses for sure, so how much better is the D really. It plays well against crappy QBs and teams without good RBs, but otherwise not so much. To what extent have past teams played similarly. We should find out more here soon, but if we drop games to Denver, GB, NE again, and Cleveland in grand fashion as we have against playoff bound teams for the most part, then I think that might cast some doubt on your belief in that way.

I think that Chandler's more a product of the system and circumstances than he is making an impact. What I mean by that is that I think he's getting the looks and targets like he is because other options for open receivers are limited. Woods hasn't taken the step that made many suggest he was great at the beginning of the season. Instead he's merely proving to be a solid #2 WR but little else. Hogan too, he seems to be a good slot guy that can make a big play now and again, but nothing that makes DC's plan for him or anything.

Orton clearly likes Watkins but after that not much. At the present time the only receiver on pace to exceed 1,000 yards is Watkins. After that we have no one on pace for more than 600 yards or so with Woods on track to match last seasons yardage total on a much lower ypr.

The WRs are young but that does not assume that they'll be great or anything. I know everyone is high on Watkins, but people I talk to that aren't Bills fans agree that he's not separating himself from the rookie competition. He's good, yeah, but will he be great? As I've said a number of times, I expect Moulds-like peformance out of him. That's good but hardly enough to carry a passing game, which has to be great these days to be a top team in the NFL. Also, Hogan's not that young.

The DL is excellent. But again, it's had serious lapses against teams like the Jets, Vikes, and Chiefs in the rushing department allowing an average of over 150 rushing yards the last three games. Even against Chicago they allowed Forte to have 4.8 ypc. When you consider that the other teams and RBs we played were all backups due to their starters being out and all pretty much sucked, I'm not sure which is more accurate, our rushing D over the last 3 games or that over the prior 5 games. We'll see, but it obviously hasn't been as good as our rankings show.

I also think that Brown (Preston) is overrated amongst fans too. Kiko's fantastic. Bradham, not so much.

To your point though about Marrone, I think it's valid, but I also don't think that he does the most with what he has either. So there's some mix there which means that he isn't getting it done. I mean think about it, you have a QB that has both here and historically been bad in the red zone, so why do you keep putting the ball in his hands instead of using other options when in the red zone, especially on 1st and 2nd downs?

My biggest reason for getting rid of him and Whaley at the end of the season has more to do with turning over a new leaf for this franchise contrasted with dragging a horrid history into the new era of ownership. If anything Whaley deserves to play out this offseason with scant resources and stew in his own juice. But think about it, if he's allowed to stay, what reason does he have not to trade away even more of the future for a player or two just in grasping at straws to try to make the playoffs next season? I see none, in fact, if that happens I wouldn't blame him one bit for doing just that. It'd be selfish for his job, but what's he supposed to be putting at the front of his mind? It's naive to think that he'll have the best interests of the GM after him in mind over himself, especially since if he "fails" here then he'll likely never be given another GM-ship anywhere. That's a huge risk if you ask me and one that I wouldn't be willing to take.

If Whaley goes, unless they do the unthinkable and promote from within, Marrone isn't going to last either as a new GM will want his own coach in there.

[mightysimi]

Every team has those resources. They also have a 1st round pick this season. We do not.

What resources do we have to get a serious QB?

It is possible to get a QB outside of the first round.

[Fletch]

It is possible to get a QB outside of the first round.

Then why haven't we successfully done it in what, 30 years?

[mightysimi]

Then why haven't we successfully done it in what, 30 years?

We haven't been successful in any round. I'm just saying it is possible and there are a few notables that are drafted outside of the first round. I think it is more likely now that guys fall out of the first round based on many things mostly based on the media. The guy might not go to a good school/hasn't played anyone/got in trouble and it is all sorts of reason to push him down the board. You are absolutely correct that most of the good QB's are round 1 QB's but until the draft happens and there would have been a good QB on the board when CLE picks for us and if he is successful down the road we can't say that if we had that pick we would be set.

[Fletch]

We haven't been successful in any round. I'm just saying it is possible and there are a few notables that are drafted outside of the first round. I think it is more likely now that guys fall out of the first round based on many things mostly based on the media. The guy might not go to a good school/hasn't played anyone/got in trouble and it is all sorts of reason to push him down the board. You are absolutely correct that most of the good QB's are round 1 QB's but until the draft happens and there would have been a good QB on the board when CLE picks for us and if he is successful down the road we can't say that if we had that pick we would be set.

Alright, but can we at least agree that unless Watkins does in fact become something truly special that the means that they used to draft him is not the smart way to go about drafting?

And can we agree that if Whaley is allowed to stick around that there are risks associated with allowing him to do so?

I'll float a possible scenario. Let's supposed he identifies another QB that he likes, apart from the fact that his prowess for picking out QBs apparently sucks, let's say he offers another team our 2016 1st, this year's 2nd and 3rd for a chance to move up into the say late 1st to get the guy, which is about what he'd get for that as he wouldn't get much higher unless it were the Skins, Raiders, or Cowboys I guess.

Would you be in favor of that? I wouldn't.

We really don't have many draft picks otherwise. We have our 2nd and 3rd and I think a 4th from something else, and who knows, maybe a compensatory pick for Byrd or someone else.

I think that when a lot of fans look at the offseason they assume that their team is allowed to make moves while the others all sit there with their hands tied. Clearly all 32 teams are seeking to improve. For a well managed team, which I don't think we are, the more picks means the greater the opportunity to improve, with the opposite being true too, the fewer picks then the less chance of inproving, especially with a mismanaged team.

[mightysimi]

Alright, but can we at least agree that unless Watkins does in fact become something truly special that the means that they used to draft him is not the smart way to go about drafting?

And can we agree that if Whaley is allowed to stick around that there are risks associated with allowing him to do so?

I'll float a possible scenario. Let's supposed he identifies another QB that he likes, apart from the fact that his prowess for picking out QBs apparently sucks, let's say he offers another team our 2016 1st, this year's 2nd and 3rd for a chance to move up into the say late 1st to get the guy, which is about what he'd get for that as he wouldn't get much higher unless it were the Skins, Raiders, or Cowboys I guess.

Would you be in favor of that? I wouldn't.

We really don't have many draft picks otherwise. We have our 2nd and 3rd and I think a 4th from something else, and who knows, maybe a compensatory pick for Byrd or someone else.

I think that when a lot of fans look at the offseason they assume that their team is allowed to make moves while the others all sit there with their hands tied. Clearly all 32 teams are seeking to improve. For a well managed team, which I don't think we are, the more picks means the greater the opportunity to improve, with the opposite being true too, the fewer picks then the less chance of inproving, especially with a mismanaged team.

Yes, obviously if Sammy doesn't become an elite receiver it wasn't the right move. I have yet to read anything from anyone who gets paid to talk about football that he shouldn't develop as an elite receiver.

For sure there are risks. I just think that some of the things he has done like getting RB depth is something that no GM in the past has done. We always seemed reactionary. "RB's hurt, let's see who's on the street and need a job!!" Now to some degree there is a little pro-activitiy involved.

As for trading 2016 first round pick. Why not, let's just keep trading the year ahead and it will never catch up. lol. No I am not in favour of giving up the whole top half of the draft.

We have a 2, 3, 4 from SF, 5 and 7 I believe. 1 and 4 went to Cle, 6 went to TB.

The difference about this offseason and us improving is that hopefully we aren't under the cash to the cap restraint so we can spend away. You are right that more picks are better but then again we disagree on Watkins so I think he will be worth it. I would much rather have a very good shot at an elite WR than a maybe in the draft. The best thing I have heard about trading away draft picks was from then GM of the Canucks Brian Burke. He said that he didn't mind trading picks for a proven commodity because the draft is unknown. I believe the quote was something on the line of "I was right there on the floor when the drafted Patrik Stefan over the Sedin's."

You still haven't answered my original question about Marrone though.

[Fletch]

Yes, obviously if Sammy doesn't become an elite receiver it wasn't the right move. I have yet to read anything from anyone who gets paid to talk about football that he shouldn't develop as an elite receiver.

Well right there you said a lot. First of all there are a good many posters here slamming me for simply suggesting that he's not there yet. Clearly you agree. And he isn't there yet, I have no idea who would look at his play and decide so soon that he's special. So that will have to wait, but I would say that in a passing league, and given that Watkins' strengths were promoted almost exclusively as being primarily "after the catch," that if he can't outperform his own rookie class significantly that the chances of him doing it down the road and over the long haul diminish substantially.



As for trading 2016 first round pick. Why not, let's just keep trading the year ahead and it will never catch up. lol. No I am not in favour of giving up the whole top half of the draft.

Well, to get a 1st this season you're going to have to do a lot more than give up 2016's 1st. That's just the math of draft day. We'll have to differ on the approach and I still say that a desperate GM like that is a dangerous one and one that can derail how good a team can get for the next few seasons if not harnessed. Look at all the bad draft day and other mega trades that sent teams to the personnel poor house over the years. I'm assuming that you're older and have this historical perspective.



The difference about this offseason and us improving is that hopefully we aren't under the cash to the cap restraint so we can spend away. You are right that more picks are better but then again we disagree on Watkins so I think he will be worth it. I would much rather have a very good shot at an elite WR than a maybe in the draft. The best thing I have heard about trading away draft picks was from then GM of the Canucks Brian Burke. He said that he didn't mind trading picks for a proven commodity because the draft is unknown. I believe the quote was something on the line of "I was right there on the floor when the drafted Patrik Stefan over the Sedin's."

You still haven't answered my original question about Marrone though.

Agree with you on the cash thing, but to me the most important area to spend money has nothing to do with the cap, it has to do with the GM and HC. I suspect that Pegula will have the same stance there. But let's get moving then.

As to the draft quote, I can't comment on hockey since I don't follow it that closely. But "proven commodities" are different from major league sport to major league sport. Pitchers often take a long time to develop in MLB. Players in different leagues develop differently. There is no such thing as a "proven commodity" in terms of the NFL draft. Again, look at history and all of the "proven commodities" have busted or proven to be way below what was expected for them. All one has to do is to look at the drafts to see the lengthy list of the ones that did, ones that many said were sure things. There are no "proven commodities" in the transition from college to the NFL.

Remember Leinart for example, a whole lot of people were saying that he was the most complete and NFL ready prospect to come out in a long time, well he busted. There's so many that were supposed to be great. But my thing is that I'd rather have had Benjamin or another like Beckum and still have our 1st and 4th. So it's not just a matter of Benjamin vs. Watkins, it's Watkins or Benjamin, a 1st this year, and a 4th this year. Again, comes down to ones draft and overall development strategies.

Sorry about the question on Marrone, what was it specifically again? I will answer it.

Thanks for the great exchange otherwise.

[The King]

The Patriots suck at drafting by the way. But they have a system and they know how to find players to fit. We don't keep coaches around long enough to have a system.

[starrymessenger]

I think Doug Whaley has done some good things and a few not so good (including but not limited to EJ).
Hard to get a firm grip tho for a number of reasons. How much of the previous admin's failures was Whaley, directly or indirectly? We don't know. And though he gets the credit (or the blame) how much of the good is attributable to him. Maybe there is a bright eyed scout or lower level FO operative that we know nothing about whose actually mostly responsible for our recent success in picking linebackers for example. Again we don't know so it's hard to come to firm conclusions. The FO certainly does get credit though for certain trades and pickups that have panned out. Hughes obviously but a guy like Wynn who has been a solid cog in the D-line rotation. The players are more talented than we've had in the past.
In the case of the other Doug I find less to be impressed with. What good is clearly due to him? The D is the DC's work. The O, especially the line, is supposed to be his specialty. What took him so long to plug in Urbik? Wouldn't Mike Williams contribute more to solving our red zone issues than a diminutive Olympic athlete who can't stay healthy? Has anyone really been impressed with his and his child OC's play calling, in game decision making, clock management, challenges etc...Does he do a good job of giving an account of things in post game or weekly pressers. Is anyone impressed with his demeanor?
And if there is any truth to the rumors that there is a deep divide between himself and Whaley, wouldn't it make sense that with a new Sherrif in town one or maybe even both of them could be shown the door?

[starrymessenger]

The Patriots suck at drafting by the way. But they have a system and they know how to find players to fit. We don't keep coaches around long enough to have a system.

How long did it take for the other college coach to install a system in Philly?

[coastal]

The Patriots suck at drafting by the way. But they have a system and they know how to find players to fit. We don't keep coaches around long enough to have a system.
Without Brady, the Patriots' systems are meaningless.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The Patriots suck at drafting by the way. But they have a system and they know how to find players to fit. We don't keep coaches around long enough to have a system.

No, they are smart enough to fit their players to the system rather than jam square pegs in round holes. They've played 3-4 and 4-3 defenses, they've been a shotgun spread and 2-3 TE sets, they even went to the Super Bowl with more rushes on the year than passing attempts (2004) and then went back to the Super Bowl with the 3rd most passing attempts in the league (2011).

The Patriots have not been built around a specific system the way the Steelers defense is, to take one example, they are extremely adaptable.

[swiper]

No, they are smart enough to fit their players to the system rather than jam square pegs in round holes. They've played 3-4 and 4-3 defenses, they've been a shotgun spread and 2-3 TE sets, they even went to the Super Bowl with more rushes on the year than passing attempts (2004) and then went back to the Super Bowl with the 3rd most passing attempts in the league (2011).

The Patriots have not been built around a specific system the way the Steelers defense is, to take one example, they are extremely adaptable.

C'mon. The Patriots have tried and failed to pound square pegs into round holes many, many times over the years. Their success comes in seeing when they don't fit they abandon ship quickly. They don't feel the need to give a player more time to not make the GM look bad for picking him.

[mightysimi]

Well right there you said a lot. First of all there are a good many posters here slamming me for simply suggesting that he's not there yet. Clearly you agree. And he isn't there yet, I have no idea who would look at his play and decide so soon that he's special. So that will have to wait, but I would say that in a passing league, and given that Watkins' strengths were promoted almost exclusively as being primarily "after the catch," that if he can't outperform his own rookie class significantly that the chances of him doing it down the road and over the long haul diminish substantially.




Well, to get a 1st this season you're going to have to do a lot more than give up 2016's 1st. That's just the math of draft day. We'll have to differ on the approach and I still say that a desperate GM like that is a dangerous one and one that can derail how good a team can get for the next few seasons if not harnessed. Look at all the bad draft day and other mega trades that sent teams to the personnel poor house over the years. I'm assuming that you're older and have this historical perspective.




Agree with you on the cash thing, but to me the most important area to spend money has nothing to do with the cap, it has to do with the GM and HC. I suspect that Pegula will have the same stance there. But let's get moving then.

As to the draft quote, I can't comment on hockey since I don't follow it that closely. But "proven commodities" are different from major league sport to major league sport. Pitchers often take a long time to develop in MLB. Players in different leagues develop differently. There is no such thing as a "proven commodity" in terms of the NFL draft. Again, look at history and all of the "proven commodities" have busted or proven to be way below what was expected for them. All one has to do is to look at the drafts to see the lengthy list of the ones that did, ones that many said were sure things. There are no "proven commodities" in the transition from college to the NFL.

Remember Leinart for example, a whole lot of people were saying that he was the most complete and NFL ready prospect to come out in a long time, well he busted. There's so many that were supposed to be great. But my thing is that I'd rather have had Benjamin or another like Beckum and still have our 1st and 4th. So it's not just a matter of Benjamin vs. Watkins, it's Watkins or Benjamin, a 1st this year, and a 4th this year. Again, comes down to ones draft and overall development strategies.

Sorry about the question on Marrone, what was it specifically again? I will answer it.

Thanks for the great exchange otherwise.

My question was if many of the players aren't good as has been said many times before doesn't that mean that Marrone is doing a good job and getting the most out of crappy players?

About proven commodities I was saying that it isn't the end of the world to trade draft picks if you get a proven commodity. This isn't the case with Watkins as he wasn't proven at the NFL level. My only problem with your argument that you would rather have Benjamin and the picks is that it is really looking at it after Benjamin has already played well. He was another 3 receivers down the board so realistically we would probably have Beckham and the picks which I'm not sure would be better.

[YardRat]

This roster has been dramatically improved over a very short period of time, and much of it is still too young to actually pass judgement on as far as successes and failures. Even if Manuel flames out, the overall body of work appears to be very good, and that's why Whaley needs to stay. To me, he's a given, and I fully understand that some don't agree but I've heard the reasons why and don't need to hear them again. Marrone is kind of of iffy...I'd like to see him get one more season just for continuity sake, but the ineptness of the staff, and results, on the offensive side of the ball are too glaring to overlook. He needs to take a hard look at that facet of the team the rest of this season and maybe into the off season if things don't pick up over the last half of the year and determine if his main priority is working with underachievers he is close to or winning.

[WagonCircler]

This roster has been dramatically improved over a very short period of time, and much of it is still too young to actually pass judgement on as far as successes and failures. Even if Manuel flames out, the overall body of work appears to be very good, and that's why Whaley needs to stay. To me, he's a given, and I fully understand that some don't agree but I've heard the reasons why and don't need to hear them again. Marrone is kind of of iffy...I'd like to see him get one more season just for continuity sake, but the ineptness of the staff, and results, on the offensive side of the ball are too glaring to overlook. He needs to take a hard look at that facet of the team the rest of this season and maybe into the off season if things don't pick up over the last half of the year and determine if his main priority is working with underachievers he is close to or winning.

I think the one season thing would be right for Whaley. But a very short leash.

[BertSquirtgum]

I would like to know if Marrone was actually the one calling plays this week. I would actually gain a little respect for him if he was.

[Fletch]

The Patriots suck at drafting by the way. But they have a system and they know how to find players to fit. We don't keep coaches around long enough to have a system.

The Patriots are good because of Brady. If Bledsoe had been their QB all that time they'd have had no SB wins, probably not even more than one or two SB appearances. Their D has sucked for a number of years. They've been lucky to have been able to continually face three teams that all have had QB issues and therefore below average offenses.

Once Brady disappears so will Belicheat's ability to put them in the AFCCG regularly.

[Fletch]

How much of the previous admin's failures was Whaley, directly or indirectly? We don't know. And though he gets the credit (or the blame) how much of the good is attributable to him. Maybe there is a bright eyed scout or lower level FO operative that we know nothing about whose actually mostly responsible for our recent success in picking linebackers for example. Again we don't know so it's hard to come to firm conclusions. The FO certainly does get credit though for certain trades and pickups that have panned out. Hughes obviously but a guy like Wynn who has been a solid cog in the D-line rotation. The players are more talented than we've had in the past.

That's true, but whiffing on Manuel was a disaster that's going to end up setting us back at least three years now in hindsight as a result. We have no good options for correcting our QB issue going into this season which means another season of Orton or some other free agent mediocrity.

Here's what we do know about Whaley, that he was specifically brought on as a personnel guy and handed control of our personnel dept. in 2010. Nix was not a personnel guy which is why that move was made. Late during the 2010 season it was announced that Nix was essentially just keeping the seat warm for Whaley who would officially succeed him at some point that following offseason. Unofficially it makes no sense that they'd let a lame-duck GM make any key decisions during that time period prior to the formal transition. IMO they did this in order to attempt to push off some of the team's decisions that might not work out in hindsight off onto Nix when really he had little to do with them. If so, then that strategy seems to have worked based on a lot of the opinions around here. Heck, despite the video in my sig people still insist that Whaley wasn't responsible for Manuel even though Whaley himself claims that he was.

The bottom line is that this team, from 2010 'til now, has been 6-10 for the most part with this season not looking significantly better and with astronomical odds of making the playoffs at this point despite "NFL math" to the contrary. There's no way that 9-7 makes it in the AFC, at least not for us, and we'll have to beat NE, GB, or Denver, along with @Miami tonight, Jets, Cleveland, and @ Raiders to hit 10 wins.

There have been some good players come in, but we've had some good players before, so that's nothing new. There are not a lot of impact players on the team though. Offensively we're limited to Watkins and I'm going to continue to question to what extent he makes an impact until he starts doing it more than half the time to start.

Defensively the DL is good overall, so is Kiko, but after that we also don't have any impact players.

Here's the thing regarding Whaley, he's gone anyway if the team doesn't produce next season, but next season Jackson's a year older at 34 and even more so the league's oldest RB and he's finished. We have no replacement as a 3-down RB. We'll also have no adequate QB. But we have no 1st round pick either.

So put yourself in Whaley's shoes, how would you conduct this offseason? You would be looking to save your job, right? So why not trade away a whole bunch of the future to try to get a QB? But do you really trust Whaley's ability to assess a QB given his massive failure on Manuel?

See what I'm saying? There are huge risks with leaving him in there this offseason. Next season likely isn't going to be much different than this one now, at this point, so he'd be fired anyway. Why wait, all he can do is **** things up even more in the interests of trying to save his own ass.

[YardRat]

lol...Nix has been a regional scout, director of pro personnel, as assistant GM oversaw both pro and college scouting, a national scout, and eventually a GM, yet he's 'not a personnel guy'. OK...

[Fletch]

My question was if many of the players aren't good as has been said many times before doesn't that mean that Marrone is doing a good job and getting the most out of crappy players?

I actually answered this but I think my answer was buried in the greater post. I think it's a combination of both of those things. We can look back to last season to see Marrone clearly in over his head in game management, poor decision making, poor clock management at times, and other things. Also, we cannot ignore the fact that it was him that hired Hackett.

He has some talent, and many in this forum argued vehemently prior to the season when I suggested things like that our RBs weren't elite like some high profile article said, or that as we agree, Watkins wasn't proven at this level yet, that Woods hadn't proven himself a solid #1 yet, that Williams was overated and some other things. Either way, my perspective on our talent mirrors yours somewhat, not what at the beginning of the season was the predominant viewpoint. So that's a difference.

But he's also not doing the best he can with what we have. I pointed out that Orton is presently the worst starting red zone QB in the league. So why repeatedly put the ball in his hands when we're in the red zone, especially on 1st and 2nd downs. It's one thing if it's 3rd-and-long and we pretty much have to throw, but otherwise, why go to your weak link when you're in the red zone? That's not good coaching.

I also think that due to circumstances sliding our way that if they hadn't occurred, we're not even having this conversation. Despite what any sites say, our wins really aren't very impressive at this point in time. Scraping by Minnesota in a key home game was hardly impressive. It took OT in a game against what we now know to be a bad Chicago team to win that one despite us having allowed more yards in that game than in any other game this season. It took a fortunate MFG to beat a depleted Detroit team.

Three of the teams we've beaten haven't even come close to scoring more points than they've allowed this season. Detroit's offense is more anemic than ours and we played them with more offensive players out than any other team has. Our other win was against Miami in Buffalo. We'll see what happens tonight.

I'm saying that because IMO we're a lot closer to 2-7 than we are to 6-3 right now. We've gotten some bounces our way in the aforementioned games that we really shouldn't have stuggled so much in if we're a .500 team.

So I think that's impacting your take on Marrone. But yeah, I'd agree with you that he doesn't have as much talent as a lot of people here suggested he had prior to and early in the season. At the same time, he's made plenty of game day errors and clearly has a lot to work through in order to be an above average coach.

I think that answers that question.



About proven commodities I was saying that it isn't the end of the world to trade draft picks if you get a proven commodity. This isn't the case with Watkins as he wasn't proven at the NFL level. My only problem with your argument that you would rather have Benjamin and the picks is that it is really looking at it after Benjamin has already played well. He was another 3 receivers down the board so realistically we would probably have Beckham and the picks which I'm not sure would be better.

Beckum then. I'm not pinpointing any particular WR. Next up is fine. Evans was gone. So Beckum, Benjamin, or Cooks then, all 1st rounders. Robinson was a 2nd rounder and has 69 fewer yards and a higher catch % than Watkins in one less game and start. I like Benjamin for two reasons, first, he had much better results in big games and played in more big games at FSU than Watkins did at Clemson, including national championship games. He is also 6'5"/240 and in the mold of the Calvin and Andre Jonhson's and AJ Green's (and others) of the NFL. But he also is more suited to an NFL style offense.

Beckum's actually got the best average game numbers, so yeah, I'd swap him for Watkins and our 1st and 4th back at this point too. That 1st is looking better every week no unfortunately. At the beginning of the season more posters here than not had playoff expectations, now even the most optimistic posters are asking whether or not we have a shot at making it. The bottom line is that despite the rhetoric here, Watkins has not distanced himself from other rookie WRs. Among Benjamin, Robinson, Cooks, Evans, and Hurns, he's not tops in yards, he's 2nd, he's not tops in ypr he's 4th, He's not 1st in ypg he's 2nd, and he's not 1st in catch % he's 4th.

That doesn't include Beckum who's only played 5 games but who's 1st in ypg. The QB situations for most of those WRs is worse than it is for Watkins here. Robinson, Hurns, Evans, and Benjamin all have worse QB situations this season. Tampa and Jax are a mess. Newton's having a terrible year. Cooks has Brees but he's a 3rd over there and still in the mix.

I find it hard to believe that say Benjamin, Evans, or Robinson wouldn't have done what they've done in Carolina, Tampa, or Jax here in Buffalo with Orton throwing. There's not much of an argument to suggest that they'd have done worse.

Again, it's about building a team, not just getting one or two players that are great. History serves us up an example of all the teams that had great players are one or a couple positions but never did anything. In considering Watkins, look at Andre Johnson, one of the NFL's all-time best WRs. He may crack the top-10 all-time receiving yardage leaders this season and will almost assuredly make top-5 next season.

But look at Houston's record, and they've had some great talent on D too and a very good RB. So it's not just about a few players, it's about as many as you can get. Now we're severely limited in getting more and have no shot at a QB until the mid-2nd. The lack of a QB continues to hinder us and the effort to get a franchise QB has now been set back for at least another season as we have little to look forward to next season too.

[Fletch]

lol...Nix has been a regional scout, director of pro personnel, as assistant GM oversaw both pro and college scouting, a national scout, and eventually a GM, yet he's 'not a personnel guy'. OK...

Nix was a fool. Poor hire from the beginning. He hadn't been in personnel for a decade.

But let me ask you, why was Whaley brought on then to be Asst. GM and Director of Player Personnel in 2010 if Nix had that role with the team?

[better days]

Nix was a fool. Poor hire from the beginning. He hadn't been in personnel for a decade.

But let me ask you, why was Whaley brought on then to be Asst. GM and Director of Player Personnel in 2010 if Nix had that role with the team?

Nix was EXPERIENCED but an OLD man when the Bills hired him.

Whaley was brought in to groom because Nix was soon to retire.

And you are a fool if you think Nix hadn't been in personnel for a decade before the Bills hired him.

[Fletch]

Nix was EXPERIENCED but an OLD man when the Bills hired him.

Whaley was brought in to groom because Nix was soon to retire.

And you are a fool if you think Nix hadn't been in personnel for a decade before the Bills hired him.

He was the GM and was not in the personnel role that he had been in in SD prior to that under Smith and Butler. He'll get credit for the personnel stuff like most GMs do, but he was no exclusively in personnel like he had been.

Who cares, this is really moot. If Whaley wasn't responsible for our moves from 2010 onward, then why was he given the title of Asst. GM and Director of Personnel? Clearly it was because he was top dog there. Nix was largely a figurehead here, especially during his last season after it was announced that Whaley would be succeeding him. To think otherwise makes no sense.

[better days]

He was the GM and was not in the personnel role that he had been in in SD prior to that under Smith and Butler. He'll get credit for the personnel stuff like most GMs do, but he was no exclusively in personnel like he had been.

Who cares, this is really moot. If Whaley wasn't responsible for our moves from 2010 onward, then why was he given the title of Asst. GM and Director of Personnel? Clearly it was because he was top dog there. Nix was largely a figurehead here, especially during his last season after it was announced that Whaley would be succeeding him. To think otherwise makes no sense.

A big part of a GM's roll is personnel.

Nix was not a figurehead, he was a mentor to Whaley.

[Fletch]

A big part of a GM's roll is personnel.

It's an even bigger part of the role for the Asst. GM and Director of Personnel.

[mightysimi]

I actually answered this but I think my answer was buried in the greater post. I think it's a combination of both of those things. We can look back to last season to see Marrone clearly in over his head in game management, poor decision making, poor clock management at times, and other things. Also, we cannot ignore the fact that it was him that hired Hackett.

I do think he is improving on this. An example being against Minnesota and running the slant out of the formation we scored the final td a couple of times but that play going to the out. That is using the past plays to try and confuse the D which is something that I think hasn't been done too much in the past. Maybe it has but not to the extent of me seeing it. To me that is a good coaching adjustment. Clock management and game situations are learned. He will get better at it. I just don't want to start over. Again.


The bottom line is that despite the rhetoric here, Watkins has not distanced himself from other rookie WRs. Among Benjamin, Robinson, Cooks, Evans, and Hurns, he's not tops in yards, he's 2nd, he's not tops in ypr he's 4th, He's not 1st in ypg he's 2nd, and he's not 1st in catch % he's 4th.

That doesn't include Beckum who's only played 5 games but who's 1st in ypg. The QB situations for most of those WRs is worse than it is for Watkins here. Robinson, Hurns, Evans, and Benjamin all have worse QB situations this season. Tampa and Jax are a mess. Newton's having a terrible year. Cooks has Brees but he's a 3rd over there and still in the mix.

I find it hard to believe that say Benjamin, Evans, or Robinson wouldn't have done what they've done in Carolina, Tampa, or Jax here in Buffalo with Orton throwing. There's not much of an argument to suggest that they'd have done worse.

The only issue I have with looking at the stats are that they don't reflect the game situation. Many of these teams that have these players have been losing. Sometimes losing big. This means the D is playing a different coverage than they might have if the game were close. This can make some easy completions with the softer coverage. A corner will be less likely to risk going for the pick so as not to get burned for the TD. Despite the stats, I still haven't seen anyone who gets paid to talk about football not say that Watkins is the best of the bunch. I would like to have the pick too but our first round history is suspect so there is no guarantee of future success. Plus with us winning, we will be out of the Mariota/Winston range.

[better days]

It's an even bigger part of the role for the Asst. GM and Director of Personnel.

The point is that Nix & Whaley both have a background in personnel unlike the Jets GM John Idzik & others like him who have a background in finance & administration.

[BuffaloRedleg]

It all depends on our final record. If we finish less than 8-8 they should both be fired.

Even if you want to make the assertion that Whaley has assembled a generally good team, he has failed to find competence at the two most important parts, coach and QB.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Whaley has assembled a good team with subpar coaching and QB, or he has assembled a subpar team. There has to be accountability.

I would submit that it would be a pretty weak 9-7/8-8 as much as that is a thing that exists, but I just don't think you can fire a coach and GM improving the teams wins as much as they will have. 8-8 or above earns them another year.

It's like getting a C- to pass high school. You passed, but I'm not real confident going forward.

[better days]

It all depends on our final record. If we finish less than 8-8 they should both be fired.

Even if you want to make the assertion that Whaley has assembled a generally good team, he has failed to find competence at the two most important parts, coach and QB.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Whaley has assembled a good team with subpar coaching and QB, or he has assembled a subpar team. There has to be accountability.

I would submit that it would be a pretty weak 9-7/8-8 as much as that is a thing that exists, but I just don't think you can fire a coach and GM improving the teams wins as much as they will have. 8-8 or above earns them another year.

It's like getting a C- to pass high school. You passed, but I'm not real confident going forward.

Well, for one thing Whaley has only been GM for one year.

For another, I think Brandon played a role in the hiring of Marrone.

I would give Whaley another year, but a would not be upset if Pegula fires him along with Marrone.

[mightysimi]

Even if you want to make the assertion that Whaley has assembled a generally good team, he has failed to find competence at the two most important parts, coach and QB.

You could argue there are 18 teams looking for a QB. Should all of their GM's be fired? My worry about backing up the brinks truck to get a guy like Cowher is that he hasn't coached in many years. How long for him to adapt or will he stubbornly stick to what worked in the past?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

No, they are smart enough to fit their players to the system rather than jam square pegs in round holes. They've played 3-4 and 4-3 defenses, they've been a shotgun spread and 2-3 TE sets, they even went to the Super Bowl with more rushes on the year than passing attempts (2004) and then went back to the Super Bowl with the 3rd most passing attempts in the league (2011).

The Patriots have not been built around a specific system the way the Steelers defense is, to take one example, they are extremely adaptable.

Last night was another example. The Pats have been gunning the ball all over the place this year (53 attempts vs. Denver, 5 passing TDs vs. Chicago, etc), so they take the bye week and install a gameplan that heavily features six offensive linemen and proceed to steamroll Indy on the road.

Adapting to your opponent! What a concept!

[Albany,n.y.]

You could argue there are 18 teams looking for a QB. Should all of their GM's be fired?

Only the ones responsible for handing the keys to the franchise to a QB from the 2013 draft. That puts the Jets Idzik at the top of the list & Whaley, if he was in any part involved in the selection of EJ (which we know he was) not that far behind.

[better days]

Only the ones responsible for handing the keys to the franchise to a QB from the 2013 draft. That puts the Jets Idzik at the top of the list & Whaley, if he was in any part involved in the selection of EJ (which we know he was) not that far behind.

Drafting a QB is a crapshoot.

The Bills said as much when they drafted Manuel.

Brady was a 6th rnd pick.

At least the Bills traded back before drafting EJ & picked up Kiko.

If Kiko was the Bills first rnd pick in that draft & EJ was not drafted, I think most people would have called it a GREAT draft.

[YardRat]

Whaley was Director of Pro Personnel, not simply 'Personnel', there is a huge difference, especially and obviously relative to the college draft.

IMO you are attempting to overstate Whaley's responsibilities and duties under Nix to further enhance your argument, but if you have actual proof to your claims I'm certainly willing to listen.

[Albany,n.y.]

Drafting a QB is a crapshoot.

The Bills said as much when they drafted Manuel.

Brady was a 6th rnd pick.

At least the Bills traded back before drafting EJ & picked up Kiko.

If Kiko was the Bills first rnd pick in that draft & EJ was not drafted, I think most people would have called it a GREAT draft.

It's not a crapshoot when you waste a 1st rounder on one in the worst QB classes in years. That's just negligence, and if my GM is saying the draft is a crapshoot at the time he drafts a QB, that's grounds for firing him because he's admitting he doesn't know anything more than fans on a message board & that's completely unacceptable.

[stuckincincy]

Drafting a QB is a crapshoot.

The Bills said as much when they drafted Manuel.

Brady was a 6th rnd pick.

At least the Bills traded back before drafting EJ & picked up Kiko.

If Kiko was the Bills first rnd pick in that draft & EJ was not drafted, I think most people would have called it a GREAT draft.

Getting a qb like Brady in the 6th is a rarity. At lease these days. Days of yore, with bump and run and head slaps and all that, when a 50% completion rate and 15 pass tds made you a top qb, perhaps.

[Albany,n.y.]

Also, more than half the Super Bowls have been won by 1st round QBs, including 7 of the last 9. A 6th round QB is a total crapshoot, a 1st round QB isn't supposed to be one. Buddy Nix should never be let on the grounds of 1 Bills Drive again (unless he wants to buy his ticket) and if Whaley was even partially responsible for drafting EJ, he should be fired after the season.