The Hacket Hate

[DesertFox24]

I am sorry but the offensive game plan against a very good Chiefs defense was awesome. We moved the ball at ease and got into the red zone 4 times and only scored 6 points.

I am sorry but that is not on him.

Orton had a bad day plain and simple. The Brown/Chandler deal and the McKelvin fumble are the reasons we lost the game.

I actually think Hacket is doing a much better job and is learning and getting better.

I think Marrone is better than he was last year as well.

You guys are all calling for their heads but are ignoring the one factor that has plagued this team for the past 14 years... CONSTANT change.

Marrone and the staff are clearly good coaches unlike Jauron. Gailey was a great off mind but his defensive talent and coaching staff were terrible and that is what did him in, he does get the blame for the hires though.

Marrone has hired good coaches around him, does not have an ego, and gets a lot out of the players.

These are traits we were screaming for the past 14 years.

I understand 14 years sucks but Marron has been here for 25 games, the past is not his fault.

He should in my mind easily get another year and probably a 4th year.

[coastal]

Agreed on most of what you have here, but the play calling on the 1st and goal was awful.

[Fletch]

There are some huge differences in perspectives here.

As some people have pointed out, as a coach you have to put the ball in situations whereby the greatest likelihood of getting results is expected. Orton is dead last in red zone production, and yes, that's on him, he is dead last rendering the team dead last. He's dragged it down like that.

Hackett should realize this and either call higher percentage passes on the early downs, or incorporate running the ball more. I know that Marrone doesn't like EJ, neither do I, but I'm thinking at this point once the team hits the red zone, if they want to score there, maybe Manuel's running ability, without any fear of him getting hurt since he does it's no big deal since he's a backup, would suit us well in the red zone.

I don't know, but when Hackett repeatedly puts the ball in the hands of that player in key situations that has an extended career history of poor red zone performance, there's definitely some blame in there for Hackett.

I don't see anything redeeming about keeping Hackett here, or Marrone for that matter.

That difference in perspectives that I was talking about was not dragging 15 or so years of sorry history with us into a new era whereby we're hoping to improve significantly. All it does is throw an anchor into the past. We don't really need that.

The way to look at this is that we have a chance to revamp this organization from the top down, Pegula should do so and let's move on from the past into the future. If that future ends up being no different than the past, that's a chance and gamble that I'm willing to bet most fans are willing to make, especially given Pegula's seeming commitment to spending to make the team good. Presumably that would become the case in hiring a new coach.

What if I threw it out there that he could lure a great GM candidate and Gruden here? Would that change everyone that's supporting Whaley and/or Marrone and/or Hackett's opinions? I'm guessing it would. So let's go in that or a comparable direction instead of continuing to hire retreads as coaches and inexperienced or overrated personnel people to be GMs.

Wish Whaley and Marrone the best, truly, but then move on. It's time, we'll never have another ownership change in many of our lifetimes.

[DesertFox24]

Agreed on most of what you have here, but the play calling on the 1st and goal was awful.

I am not going to disagree that the last series we had in the red zone was bad.

That being said we can only see what orton choose to do with the ball, their might have been other routes that were open that would have got us a first down. I dont know.

That being said I would liked them to run on first down and maybe even third down if they knew they were going to go for it, or call a screen pass they were blitzing hard.

Hopefully Hacket learns, he is learning too you know. Andy Reid was not great his first year calling plays.

[DesertFox24]

There are some huge differences in perspectives here.

As some people have pointed out, as a coach you have to put the ball in situations whereby the greatest likelihood of getting results is expected. Orton is dead last in red zone production, and yes, that's on him, he is dead last rendering the team dead last. He's dragged it down like that.

Hackett should realize this and either call higher percentage passes on the early downs, or incorporate running the ball more. I know that Marrone doesn't like EJ, neither do I, but I'm thinking at this point once the team hits the red zone, if they want to score there, maybe Manuel's running ability, without any fear of him getting hurt since he does it's no big deal since he's a backup, would suit us well in the red zone.

I don't know, but when Hackett repeatedly puts the ball in the hands of that player in key situations that has an extended career history of poor red zone performance, there's definitely some blame in there for Hackett.

I don't see anything redeeming about keeping Hackett here, or Marrone for that matter.

That difference in perspectives that I was talking about was not dragging 15 or so years of sorry history with us into a new era whereby we're hoping to improve significantly. All it does is throw an anchor into the past. We don't really need that.

The way to look at this is that we have a chance to revamp this organization from the top down, Pegula should do so and let's move on from the past into the future. If that future ends up being no different than the past, that's a chance and gamble that I'm willing to bet most fans are willing to make, especially given Pegula's seeming commitment to spending to make the team good. Presumably that would become the case in hiring a new coach.

What if I threw it out there that he could lure a great GM candidate and Gruden here? Would that change everyone that's supporting Whaley and/or Marrone and/or Hackett's opinions? I'm guessing it would. So let's go in that or a comparable direction instead of continuing to hire retreads as coaches and inexperienced or overrated personnel people to be GMs.

Wish Whaley and Marrone the best, truly, but then move on. It's time, we'll never have another ownership change in many of our lifetimes.

Gruden is a pipe dream.

A great GM candidate like whom. Whaley was a great candidate with Pitt and was considered a rising star and a heck of a hire by us.

[Fletch]

Gruden is a pipe dream.

A great GM candidate like whom. Whaley was a great candidate with Pitt and was considered a rising star and a heck of a hire by us.

Maybe, but finding a coach better and more experienced than Marrone at this level shouldn't be a pipe dream. Even a collegiate coach with solid big-game experience would be an improvement. We can make this argument extend on forever. There must be scores of candidates available with varying credentials.

As to GMs, I have one in mind, but I'll keep that to myself for my own reasons.

Either way, Marrone's going nowhere next season under the conditions that he'll have, which will chiefly be a similar QB situation. So wrong or right, fair or unfair, unless we make the playoffs next season, and I think that after this season most nfl prominents will view that as a long shot, he'll be gone anyway.

Again, why drag the past into the future?

Don't you view this ownership change as a chance for Pegula to make a statement? I do, I think it's an enormous opportunity to do it and a huge mistake not to. If we don't make the playoffs in the first three years of Pegula's ownership reign, the the heat's already going to start coming and what will our basis for hope be then?

Otherwise let's just call it a difference of opinion. I'm fine with that.

[coastal]

I am not going to disagree that the last series we had in the red zone was bad.

That being said we can only see what orton choose to do with the ball, their might have been other routes that were open that would have got us a first down. I dont know.

That being said I would liked them to run on first down and maybe even third down if they knew they were going to go for it, or call a screen pass they were blitzing hard.

Hopefully Hacket learns, he is learning too you know. Andy Reid was not great his first year calling plays.
I agree with this.

people do do have the capacity to learn and grow. Marrone can't lose the team because of a "learning" OC though. He's gotta produce. Plain and simple.

Schwartz is.

[DesertFox24]

Maybe, but finding a coach better and more experienced than Marrone at this level shouldn't be a pipe dream. Even a collegiate coach with solid big-game experience would be an improvement. We can make this argument extend on forever. There must be scores of candidates available with varying credentials.

As to GMs, I have one in mind, but I'll keep that to myself for my own reasons.

Either way, Marrone's going nowhere next season under the conditions that he'll have, which will chiefly be a similar QB situation. So wrong or right, fair or unfair, unless we make the playoffs next season, and I think that after this season most nfl prominents will view that as a long shot, he'll be gone anyway.

Again, why drag the past into the future?

Don't you view this ownership change as a chance for Pegula to make a statement? I do, I think it's an enormous opportunity to do it and a huge mistake not to. If we don't make the playoffs in the first three years of Pegula's ownership reign, the the heat's already going to start coming and what will our basis for hope be then?

Otherwise let's just call it a difference of opinion. I'm fine with that.

I do view as a change but I want to keep good people around.

In the past the jets bears bucs jags Falcons and Chiefs have hired star gm people.

All of them are fired or on the hot seat except jags. Chiefs already fired pioli that is who I am talking about. Grass no always greener.

Only GM hire I would make is Decosta from Ravens but he said he is not leaving Ravens

[chernobylwraiths]

Marrone needs to go for it a little more in those "4th and short inside the opponents territory" opportunities. And by all indications, he wasn't going for it late in the game, he was hoping KC would jump offsides.

[Fletch]

I do view as a change but I want to keep good people around.

In the past the jets bears bucs jags Falcons and Chiefs have hired star gm people.

All of them are fired or on the hot seat except jags. Chiefs already fired pioli that is who I am talking about. Grass no always greener.

Only GM hire I would make is Decosta from Ravens but he said he is not leaving Ravens


I have someone else in mind. Not sure he'd move from his current team up, but I think he would.

You're right, things aren't always better, but things haven't been better under the current guys. We've managed to beat one team that's likely headed to the playoffs this season and we got to play that team with them being seriously short handed and then only beat them because their K missed a FG. Not discounting the win, but the circumstances amidst our inability to beat any other playoff bound teams don't suggest much if any of an improvement over last season.

I think that if most people don't view it that way now they will in 7 more weeks. We'll see.

Other teams have their own issues, without picking them apart we can't say that all things are equal. What I will say is that I would think that with a new owner willing to spend that a better GM candidate is more likely to want to come here now than say Jax or Tampa, and NY of course has its own issues with the media that many GMs and coaches like to avoid. So that's a plus.

We just have so much front office baggage that I'm thinking that a good fumigation is the best first step.

Think about it, suppose that Pegula does nothing significant. Next season resembles this one. Then he gets rid of a few people but not all of the problematic ones. Pick your poison there for purposes of discussion.

Then in 2016 once again we are about the same, which it would likely be at that point since we'd probably be dealing with either a rookie QB or some retread again. What will be the perception about the "new" Bills with their only owner besides Wilson? I think that such a perception would begin creating some of the same hardships we've had here over the years in attracting better coaching or GM talent.

[better days]

Agreed on most of what you have here, but the play calling on the 1st and goal was awful.

I would add that the OC shold be able to see his QB is having a bad day & take that into consideration at the end of the game.

4 pass plays to win the game, STUPID on a day Orton clearly was off.

[Historian]

Think about it, suppose that Pegula does nothing significant. Next season resembles this one. Then he gets rid of a few people but not all of the problematic ones. Pick your poison there for purposes of discussion.

Then in 2016 once again we are about the same, which it would likely be at that point since we'd probably be dealing with either a rookie QB or some retread again. What will be the perception about the "new" Bills with their only owner besides Wilson? I think that such a perception would begin creating some of the same hardships we've had here over the years in attracting better coaching or GM talent.

And they're already soliciting deposits for next years season tickets, believe it or not.

:rolleyes:

[DesertFox24]

I have someone else in mind. Not sure he'd move from his current team up, but I think he would.

You're right, things aren't always better, but things haven't been better under the current guys. We've managed to beat one team that's likely headed to the playoffs this season and we got to play that team with them being seriously short handed and then only beat them because their K missed a FG. Not discounting the win, but the circumstances amidst our inability to beat any other playoff bound teams don't suggest much if any of an improvement over last season.

I think that if most people don't view it that way now they will in 7 more weeks. We'll see.

Other teams have their own issues, without picking them apart we can't say that all things are equal. What I will say is that I would think that with a new owner willing to spend that a better GM candidate is more likely to want to come here now than say Jax or Tampa, and NY of course has its own issues with the media that many GMs and coaches like to avoid. So that's a plus.

We just have so much front office baggage that I'm thinking that a good fumigation is the best first step.

Think about it, suppose that Pegula does nothing significant. Next season resembles this one. Then he gets rid of a few people but not all of the problematic ones. Pick your poison there for purposes of discussion.

Then in 2016 once again we are about the same, which it would likely be at that point since we'd probably be dealing with either a rookie QB or some retread again. What will be the perception about the "new" Bills with their only owner besides Wilson? I think that such a perception would begin creating some of the same hardships we've had here over the years in attracting better coaching or GM talent.
Look I see your point but these guys have had 25 games and ha e acquireda lot of talented players

[HHURRICANE]

I am sorry but the offensive game plan against a very good Chiefs defense was awesome. We moved the ball at ease and got into the red zone 4 times and only scored 6 points.

I am sorry but that is not on him.

Orton had a bad day plain and simple. The Brown/Chandler deal and the McKelvin fumble are the reasons we lost the game.

I actually think Hacket is doing a much better job and is learning and getting better.

I think Marrone is better than he was last year as well.

You guys are all calling for their heads but are ignoring the one factor that has plagued this team for the past 14 years... CONSTANT change.

Marrone and the staff are clearly good coaches unlike Jauron. Gailey was a great off mind but his defensive talent and coaching staff were terrible and that is what did him in, he does get the blame for the hires though.

Marrone has hired good coaches around him, does not have an ego, and gets a lot out of the players.

These are traits we were screaming for the past 14 years.

I understand 14 years sucks but Marron has been here for 25 games, the past is not his fault.

He should in my mind easily get another year and probably a 4th year.


I think Hackett called his best game as an OC. However, that doesn't all of a sudden make him a good OC. He had two weeks to prepare so it should be a good outing for the offense.

Marrone is coaching ok and probably will get one more year, Hackett has to go, and anyone who hasn't seen the terrific job that Whaley has done getting talent is just plain dumb.

This team is young and improving. A winning record and some off-season additions should put us in a very good spot next year.

[trapezeus]

unless the bills get the ball inside their own 40, they rarely put up points. that's a huge knock on the coordinator and a good enough reason to rebuild on the offensive coaching side.

[ServoBillieves]

Why abandon the run when you're averaging 5 ypc?

[Fletch]

unless the bills get the ball inside their own 40, they rarely put up points. that's a huge knock on the coordinator and a good enough reason to rebuild on the offensive coaching side.

That's interesting, so you're saying that the data supports the notion that most of our scores have come from drives starting within our own 40?

[Fletch]

And they're already soliciting deposits for next years season tickets, believe it or not.

:rolleyes:

Sure, why not. Strike while the iron's hot. LOL

No sense in waiting until Pegula doesn't fire anyone.

Honestly, I'm still hopeful that he does clean house and that he's just playing it cool now. There's no basis for that hope, but since when does having hope here require a basis.

[Lone Stranger]

Why abandon the run when you're averaging 5 ypc?

I am in complete agreement on this point and don't know why this wasn't indicated sooner. 48 pass plays and 22 run plays(3of which were Orton) is ridiculous.

[DesertFox24]

I think Hackett called his best game as an OC. However, that doesn't all of a sudden make him a good OC. He had two weeks to prepare so it should be a good outing for the offense.

Marrone is coaching ok and probably will get one more year, Hackett has to go, and anyone who hasn't seen the terrific job that Whaley has done getting talent is just plain dumb.

This team is young and improving. A winning record and some off-season additions should put us in a very good spot next year.


I will say that I want to see Hacket continue his good game plans.

Know that being said he has been somewhat hamstrung with the QB situation year 1 and then the QB switch this year. I hate to say it but he does deserve some benefit of the doubt.

It is not as easy as it is in Madden football game to change a QB and except everything to be the same.

[DesertFox24]

Hey guys lets just keep cleaning house it has worked some many times for so many organizations.

Meanwhile teams like the steelers that are the model for consistency keep being consistently good.

Oh and the Bengals are actually now a model after being a laughing stock and it all started with keep Marvin Lewis when everyone called for his head, and drafting better.

Drafting better past three years have shown Buffalo has actually drafted well above league average in terms of impact players and players starting, and our player development has increased (Bradham).

Nevermind scrap it all we want instant results like Dan Synder.

[better days]

Hey guys lets just keep cleaning house it has worked some many times for so many organizations.

Meanwhile teams like the steelers that are the model for consistency keep being consistently good.

Oh and the Bengals are actually now a model after being a laughing stock and it all started with keep Marvin Lewis when everyone called for his head, and drafting better.

Drafting better past three years have shown Buffalo has actually drafted well above league average in terms of impact players and players starting, and our player development has increased (Bradham).

Nevermind scrap it all we want instant results like Dan Synder.

There is no telling how much better the Bengals would be if they had better Coaching than what they are getting from Lewis.

And the Steelers hire one GOOD HC after another. Noll, Cowher, Tomlin.

When the Bills hire a GOOD HC, keep him.

Until that time, changes need to be made.

Better to continue to look for a GOOD HC than to continue with a mediocre one IMO.

[DesertFox24]

There is no telling how much better the Bengals would be if they had better Coaching than what they are getting from Lewis.

And the Steelers hire one GOOD HC after another. Noll, Cowher, Tomlin.

When the Bills hire a GOOD HC, keep him.

Until that time, changes need to be made.

Better to continue to look for a GOOD HC than to continue with a mediocre one IMO.


Tomlin had the benefit of a HOF QB when he took over for the team.

No offense to the great Marv Levy but I doubt he would be a HOF if it were not for a HOF QB.

Bill Parcels and Lombardi are the only two coaches I can think of that did anything with average to good QBs.

Doug Marrone knows football just as well as any other coach and Marrone has actually brought in highly qualified assistants something no coach before him was able to do since Levy.

Here is a thought why would guys like Schwartz Pepper Johnson the offensive assistent from the Ravens come here if they did not respect Marrone. In other words good coaches with other offers would go to the place with the coach they respect and the best opportunity. They will not go work for a coach they think sucks and will be fired.

[better days]

Tomlin had the benefit of a HOF QB when he took over for the team.

No offense to the great Marv Levy but I doubt he would be a HOF if it were not for a HOF QB.

Bill Parcels and Lombardi are the only two coaches I can think of that did anything with average to good QBs.

Doug Marrone knows football just as well as any other coach and Marrone has actually brought in highly qualified assistants something no coach before him was able to do since Levy.

Here is a thought why would guys like Schwartz Pepper Johnson the offensive assistent from the Ravens come here if they did not respect Marrone. In other words good coaches with other offers would go to the place with the coach they respect and the best opportunity. They will not go work for a coach they think sucks and will be fired.

Marrone has brought in GOOD defensive Coaches, I will give him that.

But I think the defensive players on the roster played a huge role in those DC's wanting to come to Buffalo.

Just as much as Marrone did.

Questionable about how much Marrone knows about football, how good a HC he is & his choice of OC is VERY questionable.

[DesertFox24]

Marrone has brought in GOOD defensive Coaches, I will give him that.

But I think the defensive players on the roster played a huge role in those DC's wanting to come to Buffalo.

Just as much as Marrone did.

Questionable about how much Marrone knows about football, how good a HC he is & his choice of OC is VERY questionable.

You give any coach and any OC a good top 10 QB they will look like a genius.

Now the HC for San Diego now he is a good gameplanner he was able to win with Tebow for crying out loud.

That being said I think Hacket could develop into a HC candidate and I think he knows what he is doing.

I really think people are underestimating the effect of the QB change on Hacket and this team.

Orton may be up to speed to an extent but they do not have time to experiment with him and try new things like they do in the offseason etc...

That is why I say keep the staff another year and hopefully Orton will be here and then we should get a try indicator of what type of coach Hacket is.

Oh wait that is sound logic on a bills message board, my bad. I should have said OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.

People you have to relax and take an unbiased look at this thing and remove all the emotion and frustration of 14 years. When you lay all the facts down on the table you will see that Hacket and Marrone have had one hand tied behind their back because of the QB position.

[better days]

You give any coach and any OC a good top 10 QB they will look like a genius.

Now the HC for San Diego now he is a good gameplanner he was able to win with Tebow for crying out loud.

That being said I think Hacket could develop into a HC candidate and I think he knows what he is doing.

I really think people are underestimating the effect of the QB change on Hacket and this team.

Orton may be up to speed to an extent but they do not have time to experiment with him and try new things like they do in the offseason etc...

That is why I say keep the staff another year and hopefully Orton will be here and then we should get a try indicator of what type of coach Hacket is.

Oh wait that is sound logic on a bills message board, my bad. I should have said OFF WITH THEIR HEADS.

People you have to relax and take an unbiased look at this thing and remove all the emotion and frustration of 14 years. When you lay all the facts down on the table you will see that Hacket and Marrone have had one hand tied behind their back because of the QB position.

Emotion aside, how do you justify Hackett calling 4 pass plays in a row at the end of that game on a day Orton was having a terrible time throwing the Ball & Mike Williams was inactive?

[DesertFox24]

Emotion aside, how do you justify Hackett calling 4 pass plays in a row at the end of that game on a day Orton was having a terrible time throwing the Ball & Mike Williams was inactive?

How do you know Orton did not check to a pass play?

They usually call 2 plays in the huddle before every play

Also if Hacket called a pass play because they were in a run defense then I have no problem.

The all 22 Jeremy white wrote shows Orton had Hogan on the third down play and Sammy on the 4th down play. The sammy play was wide open and for some reason orton thought he was going back shoulder when sammy had 2 yards on the guy. My gut tells me orton just had a bad throw and that happens. The hogan one was really bad because Hogan was open.

[DesertFox24]

I will say this though if the bills are not 9-7 or 8-8 and lose a miracle game then I will join you guys on the new OC department.

I am not ready to call for his head when Orton has only played 5 games and showed up 25 August.

The run game looked good finally and the pass game looked good and we moved the ball with ease against a good defense.

We are struggling in the red zone and that is not all hacket, blame has to go to the players too.

If the offense plays like it did against KC the rest of the season then we better keep Hacket, if they regress and cannot run the ball or move the ball then ok

[better days]

A big reason the offense is struggling in the end zone is Mike Williams is not on the field.

And too little use is made of Chandler in the red zone as well.

I blame that on Hackett & Marrone

And you think 13 points a game is reason to keep Hackett?

[cookie G]

Emotion aside, how do you justify Hackett calling 4 pass plays in a row at the end of that game on a day Orton was having a terrible time throwing the Ball & Mike Williams was inactive?

-KC hadn't given up a rushing TD all year and had been one of the best redzone defenses over the past several games;
-The Bills had one rushing TD all year;
-Orton had 5 4th Quarter TD's in the past 4 games and a 4th Q passer rating of around 120;
-in that half, you had one of the RB's fumble the ball out of the back of the endzone;
-they had 15 yards to go, not 2.
-Watkins actually had his man beat in the endzone

They played percentages..they lost...it happens.

[better days]

-KC hadn't given up a rushing TD all year and had been one of the best redzone defenses over the past several games;
-The Bills had one rushing TD all year;
-Orton had 5 4th Quarter TD's in the past 4 games and a 4th Q passer rating of around 120;
-in that half, you had one of the RB's fumble the ball out of the back of the endzone;
-they had 15 yards to go, not 2.
-Watkins actually had his man beat in the endzone

They played percentages..they lost...it happens.

Hackett + Orton= Ineptitude.