Help me to understand - Officiating

[The King]

Let's talk about two scenarios and try to forget this was in last nights game. Let's look at these objectively.

Scenario 1:

Qb is being pressured heavily in the end zone. Throws the ball to an area a receiver just vacated. No flag is thrown.
The officials huddle and decide the correct call is intentional grounding.

What happens in this huddle what does it take to make a call no one declared penalty in real time?

Scenario 2:

There's a bang-bang play. A defender bats a ball away from a receiver putting a hand on the WR's back as the ball arrives.
The referee behind the play throws a flag immediately.

The perception of this play from the booth as well as the field is that this call isn't conclusive. Is there a huddle to get the call right, like in the scenario above?

Do the same rules apply in these huddles? How many officials need to be in on a call for it to stand?
If the goal is to get the call right than why are there consistently plays were - what's right isn't even being discussed?

I think of the Offsides call from last weeks game where clear as day you can see the officials missed the call. I think of the PI call from last night, why are these not even being looked at? At least they discussed the Intentional Grounding call, right or wrong some thought went into making that decision. Penalties are so important to momentum, the right call needs to be made.

[Bill Cody]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

I guess you could huddle on every call. Is that what you want? Intentional grounding has the moving parts of 1) was the QB out of the pocket, 2) did the ball reach the line of scrimmage, 3) was there a receiver in the area. I can see why you might need a huddle for that. On PI I don't think huddles is the right remedy to what is a huge problem for the league.

The issue on PI to me is two fold: 1) the penalty can be so large in yardage it can be a game changer 2) the call could be made because a defender had incidental contact but not affect the play and you give the offense a huge gift. I would address PI in two ways:

1) I'd divide the call into two categories, garden variety which is a flat 15 yards and "level 2" which is called when in the opinion of the refs the offensive player would have likely scored without the PI, in that case only is it a spot foul
2) I'd open up PI calls to coaches challenges.

[OpIv37]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

While I like the idea of challenging penalties, it'll never happen. No ref is going to overturn his own flag. The league would have to have a penalty review official review it from a neutral location, like the NHL does on goal reviews. But even then, the league would be publicly undermining their own officials on live TV. I can't see them doing that.

but the officiating last night was a travesty and the league should be embarrassed.

[bdutton]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

Scenario 2:

There's a bang-bang play. A defender bats a ball away from a receiver putting a hand on the WR's back as the ball arrives.
The referee behind the play throws a flag immediately.

The perception of this play from the booth as well as the field is that this call isn't conclusive. Is there a huddle to get the call right, like in the scenario above?

Do the same rules apply in these huddles? How many officials need to be in on a call for it to stand?
If the goal is to get the call right than why are there consistently plays were - what's right isn't even being discussed?

This is what I posted in the other thread:

[LIST=1][*]There shall be no interference with a forward pass thrown from behind the line. The restriction for the passing team starts with the snap. The restriction on the defensive team starts when the ball leaves the passer’s hand. Both restrictions end when the ball is touched by anyone.[*]The penalty for defensive pass interference is an automatic first down at the spot of the foul. If interference is in the end zone, it is first down for the offense on the defense’s 1-yard line. If previous spot was inside the defense’s 1-yard line, penalty is half the distance to the goal line.[*]The penalty for offensive pass interference is 10 yards from the previous spot.[*]It is pass interference by either team when any player movement beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible player of such player’s opportunity to catch the ball. Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched. Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched.[/LIST]

[INDENT]Actions that constitute defensive pass interference include but are not limited to: 
[/INDENT][INDENT](a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver’s opportunity to make the catch. 
[COLOR=#ff0000](b) Playing through the back of a receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball. 
[/COLOR](c) Grabbing a receiver’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass. 
(d) Extending an arm across the body of a receiver thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, regardless of whether the defender is playing the ball.
 (e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball. 
(f) Hooking a receiver in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the receiver’s body to turn prior to the ball arriving. Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to: 
(a) Incidental contact by a defender’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball, or neither player is looking for the ball. If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference. 
(b) Inadvertent tangling of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball. 
(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the pass is clearly uncatchable by the involved players.
(d) Laying a hand on a receiver that does not restrict the receiver in an attempt to make a play on the ball. 
(e) Contact by a defender who has gained position on a receiver in an attempt to catch the ball. 

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to: 
(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched. 
(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass. 
(c) Driving through a defender who has established a position on the field. 

Actions that do not constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to: 
[COLOR=#ff0000](a) Incidental contact by a receiver’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball or neither player is looking for the ball. 
[/COLOR](b) Inadvertent touching of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball. 
(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the ball is clearly uncatchable by involved players. 

[COLOR=#ff0000]Note 1: If there is any question whether player contact is incidental, the ruling should be no interference. 
[/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]Note 2: Defensive players have as much right to the path of the ball as eligible offensive players. 
[/COLOR]Note 3: Pass interference for both teams ends when the pass is touched. 
Note 4: There can be no pass interference at or behind the line of scrimmage, but defensive actions such as tackling a receiver can still result in a 5-yard penalty for defensive holding, if accepted. 
Note 5: Whenever a team presents an apparent punting formation, defensive pass interference is not to be called for action on the end man on the line of scrimmage, or an eligible receiver behind the line of scrimmage who is aligned or in motion more than one yard outside the end man on the line. Defensive holding, such as tackling a receiver, still can be called and result in a 5-yard penalty and automatic first down from the previous spot, if accepted. Offensive pass interference rules still apply.
[/INDENT]

Rules clearly state the if there is ANY QUESTION of incidental contact, the ruling should be no interference.

All the ref's had to do was enforce the rules as written. They failed to do that.

The entire crew should be fired for having gotten the rules so terribly wrong.

[Mr. Pink]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

1. was ticky tack...called some times, not called others. As it had no direct effect on the outcome of the game, whatever.

2. Also ticky tack...ref saw Gilmore's hand around the receivers back, usually it's not called unless the DB actually grabs and pulls the receiver however.

[feldspar]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

While I like the idea of challenging penalties, it'll never happen. No ref is going to overturn his own flag. The league would have to have a penalty review official review it from a neutral location, like the NHL does on goal reviews. But even then, the league would be publicly undermining their own officials on live TV. I can't see them doing that.

but the officiating last night was a travesty and the league should be embarrassed.

The refs would do what they're told to do. I don't see egos getting in the way more than they are on any other challengeable call on the field. They overturn the spot of the ball, turnovers, catches or non-catches, etc. all the time. How would penalties be all that much different? Slow-motion proof from several angles should change minds.

They'd better include penalties in plays that are challengeable, and right soon. Fans are getting too fed up to not do it, especially with rules becomes more obscure and ridiculous. Officials ruin the fairplay the sport is supposed to be based on constantly, and they ruin games every week.

Of course, most talking heads fear the threat of a fine when they express this reality. Players and coaches certainly cannot speak their minds over this open secret. It's gotta stop.

[trapezeus]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

the intentional grounding was absurd. I mean, at least throw the flag initially. how did that huddle even occur. "hey walt, i didn't throw the flag. i know we do that when we see something amiss. but i wanted ot let you know from the 50 yard line the ball looked like no one was around. did he throw it because a guy was draped on him, or did he just throw another ****ty pass"

"well i wasn't paying attention, but let's err on the side of game changing momentum turner, shall we? Let's call it a safetfy. oh and let me throw the flag now like a dramatic douchebag."

[bdutton]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

Interesting info about Walt Coleman and his inept and game changing officiating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Coleman

[trapezeus]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

someone should update it with yesterday's 5 botched calls and the holding calls that were never called.

[chris66]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

the intentional grounding was absurd. I mean, at least throw the flag initially. how did that huddle even occur. "hey walt, i didn't throw the flag. i know we do that when we see something amiss. but i wanted ot let you know from the 50 yard line the ball looked like no one was around. did he throw it because a guy was draped on him, or did he just throw another ****ty pass"

"well i wasn't paying attention, but let's err on the side of game changing momentum turner, shall we? Let's call it a safetfy. oh and let me throw the flag now like a dramatic douchebag."

Refs always huddle up for intentional grounding. Brady is good for a least one a game and they always huddle up be fore throwing the flag

[bdutton]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

someone should update it with yesterday's 5 botched calls and the holding calls that were never called.

Don't forget the game against the Pats this year in Buffalo too. The BS Offensive PI and non called OPI on Gronk's pushoff.

[don137]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

Coleman's crew is the worst in the league IMO. Wood gets called for holding on a hold that was very mild that happens on every play. Heck, Glenn was holding just as bad on the same play. Yet, Bills are getting held by Miami much worse than that and nothing is called. Too make it worse Hughes get fired up because Miami is getting away with murder and he gets an unsportsmanlike call as a result of grazing official during his tirade. I knew we were in trouble the second I saw Coleman.

[YardRat]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

While I like the idea of challenging penalties, it'll never happen. No ref is going to overturn his own flag. The league would have to have a penalty review official review it from a neutral location, like the NHL does on goal reviews. But even then, the league would be publicly undermining their own officials on live TV. I can't see them doing that.

but the officiating last night was a travesty and the league should be embarrassed.

They pick them up and declare 'no foul' all of the time.

[YardRat]

Re: Help me to understand - Officiating

I'd like to know if Coleman has ever been involved in a Patriots loss, or Bills win.