Curiosity Question: Who Supports the Trade Made to Land Watkins

[Fletch]

Curiosity question.

This isn't a thread about whether or not Watkins is good, he is good, no question. There are questions as to how good, particularly in comparison to his rookie peers, but this isn't even about that.

The question is: Would you rather have Watkins, or any other rookie WR besides Evans, who wasn't available with our original 9th overall pick, and our 1st and 4th in 2015 back?


<thead>

Games
Receiving


Rk

Year
Age
Draft
Tm
Lg
G
GS
Tgt
Rec
Yds
Y/R
TD
Y/G
Ctch%

</thead> <tbody>
1
Mike Evans (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/EvanMi00.htm)
2014
21
1-7
TAM (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/tam/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
10
10
82
49
841
17.16
8
84.1
59.8


2
Kelvin Benjamin (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BenjKe00.htm)
2014
23
1-28
CAR (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
11
10
98
52
768
14.77
8
69.8
53.1


3
Sammy Watkins (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WatkSa00.htm)
2014
21
1-4
BUF (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
11
11
89
48
684
14.25
5
62.2
53.9


4
Jordan Matthews (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MattJo00.htm)
2014
22
2-42
PHI (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
11
7
77
50
635
12.70
6
57.7
64.9


5
Odell Beckham (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BeckOd00.htm)
2014
22
1-12
NYG (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
7
6
59
41
609
14.85
5
87.0
69.5


6
Brandin Cooks (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CookBr00.htm)
2014
21
1-20
NOR (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
10
7
69
53
550
10.38
3
55.0
76.8


7
Allen Robinson (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RobiAl02.htm)
2014
21
2-61
JAX (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/jax/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
10
8
81
48
548
11.42
2
54.8
59.3


8
Taylor Gabriel (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GabrTa00.htm)
2014
23

CLE (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
11
1
57
30
540
18.00
1
49.1
52.6


9
John Brown (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowJo02.htm)
2014
24
3-91
ARI (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/2014.htm)
NFL (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2014/)
11
3
70
37
529
14.30
5
48.1
52.9

</tbody>

[Fletch]

By the way, here are Watkins' rankings in the above table.

Starts: 1st
Targets: 2nd
Receptions: 5th
Yards: 3rd
Yards-per-catch: 6th
TDs: 3-way tie for 4th
YPG: 4th
Catch %: 6th

of 9 spots

[trapezeus]

if the bills traded their first and fourth to stop fletch from posting, i'd say we got quite a steal!

[Mr. Pink]

Can you imagine the uproar if the Bills stayed put and took Kelvin Benjamin?

I'm not that impressed with him as most of his work has been done in garbage time when the Panthers are well out of games.

Beckham Jr has surprised me, didn't think he'd have as much impact or be as good at the NFL level as he is.

None of the guys would have stat lines much different than Watkins here though, it's not that Watkins isn't open or drops the ball frequently...the QBs seemingly don't even look his way through stretches. Last night was a huge example of this. Also, the Bills might be the only team in the NFL who don't run bubble screens, a play in which Watkins excelled at while at Clemson.

Sure it would be great if the team had their first next year but who's to say they would have used it wisely anyway? As far as any of us know, they would have used that pick to take Melvin Gordon to replace Spiller.

[Novacane]

Did you really need to start another one of these threads? Hindsight being 20/20 I'd of stayed pat and taken Beckham. He's the only one that's on par with Sammy talent wise IMO. I don't care what stats you post.

[trapezeus]

Mr. Pink, just wait until there is another hindsight decision to be made. Fletch will be there telling us exactly what he'd do. while he supported taking benjamin at 9 he didn't say boo about beckham until he made that sensational catch. now he's a big beckham supporter.

It's pretty easy being fletch/very wide right because they just recall tiny bits when convenient and post stats without delving into the actual meaning of the stats

[Fletch]

if the bills traded their first and fourth to stop fletch from posting, i'd say we got quite a steal!

That's the problem with you, you keep repeating this over and over and over again. Don't you have anything else to say beside many of the obvious comments that you make?

"Our D played great last night". Gee, really Sherlock.

LOL

[Fletch]

Mr. Pink, just wait until there is another hindsight decision to be made. Fletch will be there telling us exactly what he'd do. while he supported taking benjamin at 9 he didn't say boo about beckham until he made that sensational catch. now he's a big beckham supporter.

It's pretty easy being fletch/very wide right because they just recall tiny bits when convenient and post stats without delving into the actual meaning of the stats

That's right, I will, just as I was when I was out on an island suggesting that Spiller wasn't the same special player that many people say Watkins is.

You're right trapezeus, I will be, except it will be more like what I wouldn't have done. I'll take my track record against this front office's track record any time.

[trapezeus]

and everyone else here was on board with the FO the entire time. you are a fool.

[Fletch]

and everyone else here was on board with the FO the entire time. you are a fool.

They were regarding Spiller.

Who's the fool?

[trapezeus]

they weren't. everyone said, "he seems like an ok player, but there are a lot of needs elsewhere, we already have lynch and jackson." go pull up the actual threads. you also weren't posting here at the time as often as you do now.

but this is also a nice piece of revisionist history on your part.

[Novacane]

. I'll take my track record against this front office's track record any time.

Most of us would. If the Bills had just let this board vote on their draft picks they'd be miles ahead of where they are now.

[Novacane]

They were regarding Spiller.

Who's the fool?



Do you know the difference between some and everyone?

[k-oneputt]

Most of us would. If the Bills had just let this board vote on their draft picks they'd be miles ahead of where they are now.

You mean we wouldn't have drafted Whitner, Maybin, McGahee, Manuel,........

[Night Train]

:deadhorse

[Mr. Miyagi]

Hindsight is 20-20. Surely we should've also drafted Russell Wilson instead of TJ Graham, and Brian Cushing over Aaron Maybin.

[k-oneputt]

I know this board wanted Ngata over Whitner.

[better days]

At least the Bills did not draft Ebron who many wanted the Bills to draft.

He just SUCKS.

[Mr. Pink]

I know this board wanted Ngata over Whitner.

And Mangold over McCargo.

[yordad]

Hindsight vision is always better. I supported it at the time.

[Historian]

I like the trade.

I believe he's only going to get better.

[Buffalo Billy Bison]

A great crop of wideouts this past draft for sure! Do I condone the trade of a first rounder and 4th next year to get the "projected" top receiver in the draft, you bet I do! It's the job of the QB
to get the ball to him like some of the other rookies that came out like Cook, Evens, Benjamin, Matthews etc. That hasn't happened due to poor play by our QB's and timing between Watkins and our QB's. If
you noticed last night Watkins was double teamed all night allowing the catches to be made my Robert Woods. They can't double team him all the time or our receiver on the other side having one on one will
start eating up the catches and yards like last night. Once the defense spreads themselves out this will create a bunch of opportunities for the receiver underneath! The Watkins draft will overall make the Bills
a much better and dangerous team as they were last night! Yes! Is my answer because the name of the game is winning and his addition to the Bills roster will do just that in many seen and unseen ways.

[Bill Cody]

The Bills have drafted mostly busts in the first round. This time we drafted a stud. What are the odds we drafted another stud with next year's 1st if we still had it? Be honest

[djjimkelly]

id NEVER trade a future 1st unless it was to land a 1000000% qb


but since watkins is here i am in full support of him and to his defense he has by far the worst qb throwing to him (maybe newton is worse then orton) from that list of rookies

[TacklingDummy]

I wanted Mike Evans then and I want Mike Evans now.

Mike Evans was the only WR worth trading up for.

The Bills blew it, typical Bills.

[YardRat]

I'm not voting, but...

I'm not a fan of first round offensive skill positions to begin with, especially trading up for them, or giving up future picks, especially firsts. If one looks back at some of the pre-draft threads, probably mostly those where XEra was pimping going after Watkins, I wasn't on board with pulling the trigger. However, once the deal is done, it is what it is, and only more time will tell if the move was worth it (*cough*Biscuit?*cough*) or not (*gag*Losman*gag*).

Watkins is going to be good, no doubt about it, and he should only continue to get better. He's already 'dominant' enough to the point where defenses have to specifically game plan for him. He doesn't have to be the best of this draft class, even, to justify the move up, but he does need to bring enough to the table to have a significant impact on the team's success. Also, I give the front office credit for making a bold move to get a guy they truly believed in, regardless of the outcome.

All that being said, I really still wonder why somebody that thinks Whaley sucks and should be shown the door, specifically relative to what he's done with first round picks, is so bitter about not having one in 2015...it's not like you should have any confidence that he wouldn't just '**** that one up' too.

[Fletch]

I like the trade.

I believe he's only going to get better.

Of course he'll get better, but what, Beckum, Benjamin, Evans, and the rest won't get better? They're all likely to get better. Right now Watkins doesn't appear to be better than any of the three. We'll see if he becomes better, but he'll have to become more than marginally better in order for that deal to look even competent much less like a good trade.

You can't find one national level talking head right that doesn't have a track record of miserable predictions now that thinks that we made a good decision on that.

[Fletch]

The Bills have drafted mostly busts in the first round. This time we drafted a stud. What are the odds we drafted another stud with next year's 1st if we still had it? Be honest

All of the top WRs taken appear to have been studs. We could have had a stud AND our 1st rounder.

If we had our 1st we might be in a position to trade up and take Mariota. I'm sure that our next QB taken in the 1st will be in the next draft that's weak in QBs. That's how we do it.

[jills]

When your team trades up to select a WR in one of the best WR draft classes in a long time, you know your FO is clueless.

[YardRat]

When your team trades up to select a WR in one of the best WR draft classes in a long time, you know your FO is clueless.

'Clueless' is having a sig that was relevant seven years ago.

[jills]

'Clueless' is having a sig that was relevant seven years ago.

What does this have to do with the topic?

[Fletch]

What does this have to do with the topic?

Come on now ...

:whoosh:

[YardRat]

What does this have to do with the topic?

I already covered the topic in my initial post.

[BillsImpossible]

No doubt about it, Whaley made the right move.

The Bills gave up what will likely be a late first round draft pick in the 2015 NFL Draft.

[BertSquirtgum]

I'd rather have Mike Evans and our 1st next year because he would have been available to the Bills at 9 if they didn't move up to draft Watkins.

[Fletch]

I'd rather have Mike Evans and our 1st next year because he would have been available to the Bills at 9 if they didn't move up to draft Watkins.

Why not Evans at 4th? He's outplaying Watkins and it's not because he's got better QB play. It's also not because Vincent is double teamed constantly since Evans has been the one double-teamed for weeks. He was draped with defenders in that game against the skins and constantly got open.

Either way, I'd still take our picks back and Beckum or Benjamin. I'll predict that in three years you and everyone else will be saying the same. Of course by then you'll all be saying that you've always held that view, kinda like most posters' statements on Spiller.

[BertSquirtgum]

Watkins was the supposed guaranteed phenom. Everybody had questions about Mike Evans. Not me. I wanted Evans since November of last year.

[Fletch]

Watkins was the supposed guaranteed phenom. Everybody had questions about Mike Evans. Not me. I wanted Evans since November of last year.

At the time of the draft my first thought was why not Evans instead of Watkins. But you know how things work, the draft gurus put out their stuff and the teams that aren't good use their info because they don't have a staff that is competent enough to come up with their own. Good teams think independently like that.

Evans has been a monster this season and he's been ridiculously more consistent than Watkins. He's had more yards in his worst game than Watkins has had in 7 of his 11 games.

He's on pace for over 1,300 yards and 13 TDs.

So no argument here.

[TacklingDummy]

I pumped Evans all before the draft. I was right again.

[Mouldsie]

Was against it then and now.

WR corps should also still include Stevie..... if we really needed to move him then Beckham (stud) and A. Robinson (future stud)

[Mouldsie]

I pumped Evans all before the draft. I was right again.
I preferred him to Watkins but he would not have been available. Allen Robinson was my sleeper. Jeff Janis is also intriguing long term

[BillsOwnAll]

This thread is everything that has gone wrong with BFZ. Arent there already countless threads about this?

Fletch noones gonna agree with you that doesnt already.

Everyone else. Noones gonna get fletch to agree with you.


Agree the disagree, Why have the same argument everydayyyyyyyyyy.

Bills offer so much more to argue about.

[Fletch]

Bills offer so much more to argue about.

Come on now, you know that I don't limit myself to this issue. LOL

[Mahdi]

My view on this is that we don't have an experienced OC that knows how to get his best players the ball.

Spiller was a different player under Gailey. And now Watkins and Spiller are both suffering under this OC.

If you put Beckham, Evans or Benjamin in our offense they would do the same or less than what Watkins is doing.

Watkins should be getting 3-4 quick hitter passes per game to just run with but its not even in the game plan for some reason. How many screens does the best QB in the history of the NFL throw to Demarius Thomas? At least 2-3 per game. Watkins has that same ability.

The comparison between these WRs from a talent perspective easily has Watkins at the top in terms of overall ability. Unfortunately he is in a system that is based upon protecting the ball and caution first since our D is so good.

Tampa, NY, Carolina all struggle on D and are playing catch up most of the time so are probably looking for their playmakers from minute 1-60. Add on top of that a better OC and you have better production.

Sammy didn't have a great game though against the Jets besides a couple nice routes.

[Bill Cody]

I'd rather have Mike Evans and our 1st next year because he would have been available to the Bills at 9 if they didn't move up to draft Watkins.

He was chosen 7th. That would make you WRONG.

[Bill Cody]

Why not Evans at 4th?

This is proof you are a troll. You post to death about how tragic it is that we traded up and lost our 1st and 4th next year. Now it's fine for a different player? Try to stay consistent please just in case someone out there still takes your spew seriously. Noone knows yet how Watkins are Evans will match up over the long haul or for that matter Watkins vs anyone else. We know we got a good player. Did we overpay? Maybe but it's not the end of the world even if we did. Drafting busts is far worse.

[Fletch]

This is proof you are a troll. You post to death about how tragic it is that we traded up and lost our 1st and 4th next year. Now it's fine for a different player? Try to stay consistent please just in case someone out there still takes your spew seriously. Noone knows yet how Watkins are Evans will match up over the long haul or for that matter Watkins vs anyone else. We know we got a good player. Did we overpay? Maybe but it's not the end of the world even if we did. Drafting busts is far worse.

OK

[Patrick76777]

I didn't. But I respect the fact that an organization that has been terrible for the better part of 15 years made a bold move to get better. Plus, what's done is done. While it can be fun to talk about this stuff, talking about it ad nauseam is an exercise in futility. Unless you're a big fan of being able to say, I told you so.

[better days]

The way he played his rookie year, RGIII made the Redskins look like they knew what they were doing when they traded for him.

Now that trade looks STUPID.

Lets wait another 2 years at least before deciding if the trade for Sammy was STUPID or not.

[sudzy]

Watkins will be a good NFL player, but, when I heard the deal, I almost puked. He better be Jerry Rice at that price and he's not. Any of the other 1st round WR + next years 1st > Watkins.

[better days]

Watkins will be a good NFL player, but, when I heard the deal, I almost puked. He better be Jerry Rice at that price and he's not. Any of the other 1st round WR + next years 1st > Watkins.

Well, I disagree with that.

The first rnd pick next year could be used on a player like Maybin or Whitner

[sudzy]

Well, I disagree with that.

The first rnd pick next year could be used on a player like Maybin or Whitner

Not if the Bills have a good GM. (which I don't think they have)

[better days]

Not if the Bills have a good GM. (which I don't think they have)

OK, so you don't think any other WR & next years 1st rnd pick is worth more than Sammy after all.

[Meathead]

this is one of those too early to tell questions but right now i would choose no bc we dont know where the qb spot is gonna end up. hes special and probably the best wr of the draft but in what was a very deep top end wr draft year they shoulda saved the big pick as ej insurance and if they felt they didnt need that to try to get another stud players elsewhere on the roster

the other factor is that i really like the guy so its easy to root for him. in fact theres a bunch of guys like that, woods, chandler, boobs, a.williams, guys that are just cool, real, and nice. way too often we see the lower element of blackness represented in football. seattle players saying wilson 'isnt black enough' to me now sounds like theyre saying hes not enough of a big selfish macho racist douchebag. ive never put a huge emphasis on character for my football players but it sure is nice to feel like you could enjoy time in either a stripclub or a church with the guys

[CoolBreeze]

Watkins has been very good for us. We're sitting at 6-5, the rookie wideouts have played 11 games or less total in their careers! Way too early for this conversation. We're still in the playoff race, and we should not care what other rookie WRs are doing. We picked Sammy and he's been more than fine. This can only be brought up so many times before it gets annoying.

For what it's worth though I'd bet every dollar I have that if Mike Evans, Odell Beckum, or Kelvin Benjamin were drafted by the Bills their stats or play would not be as high as Sammys is. Not with our QB, or our OC. Also surprisingly no one has mentioned that Evans and Benjamin belong to the NFC South. Worse division in the league with some of the worst defenses in the league. I wish the Bills were in that division.

[CoolBreeze]

* Beckham^

[Fletch]

Watkins has been very good for us. We're sitting at 6-5, the rookie wideouts have played 11 games or less total in their careers! Way too early for this conversation. We're still in the playoff race, and we should not care what other rookie WRs are doing. We picked Sammy and he's been more than fine. This can only be brought up so many times before it gets annoying.

For what it's worth though I'd bet every dollar I have that if Mike Evans, Odell Beckum, or Kelvin Benjamin were drafted by the Bills their stats or play would not be as high as Sammys is. Not with our QB, or our OC. Also surprisingly no one has mentioned that Evans and Benjamin belong to the NFC South. Worse division in the league with some of the worst defenses in the league. I wish the Bills were in that division.

I hear ya but there's not much basis to that. Frankly, there's not a team in the NFCS that's as bad as the Jets. Other than NE the rest of our division isn't much different.

But where I question what you said is that Evans' and Benjamins's situations aren't much different than Watkins. Newton's having an awful season, the whole league's media is all over him. And the Bucs, both them and Carolina have just about as many passing yards as us and the Bucs have the same # of TDs and Carolina one less. We've thrown fewer INTs too. So to suggest that somehow Benjamin or Evans has a better situation, I don't see how.

You say that Sammy's been fine, but he's had 7 of 11 games of 35 yards or less and hasn't been a factor in any of those games. The only one of those 7 games he even had a TD in we lost. As I've pointed out before, Evans' worst game is better than all 7 of those games by Sammy. Some here suggest that Sammy's real value is in being decoy. I mean really. Evans' three best games beat Sammy's three best too. Benjamin's 2nd worst game is better than those 7 of Sammy's. He's had Glennon and McCown throwing, neither is better than Orton and I'm not even sure that McCown is much better than Manuel. Either way, the QB situations are about the same and Tampa's RB situation is much worse. So I think there's no basis to the notion that Evans wouldn't be at least that good here.

As to Benjamin, same thing, Carolina has worse RBs, and Newton's season is no better than our QBs or Tampas.

Carolina: 2,816 yards, 16 TDs
Tampa: 2,767 yards, 17 TDs
Buffalo: 2,648 yards, 17 TDs

[BertSquirtgum]

He was chosen 7th. That would make you WRONG.

My god. People can't be this dumb. If The Bills didn't move up. Tampa would have taken Watkins at 7. No other team needed a WR.

[Fletch]

My god. People can't be this dumb. If The Bills didn't move up. Tampa would have taken Watkins at 7. No other team needed a WR.

Well, we don't know that. How do we know that they didn't like Evans better.

But so what, then we take Evans and have our picks back.

I really don't see how anyone thinks that Watkins has outperformed Evans or Benjamin. His stats aren't better, fewer TDs, their QB situations are almost identical as I've shown. But to me the fact that Watkins in 7 of 11 games hasn't done anything even worthy of mention says it all.

So far the guy's been more hype than what people said about him in the draft.

[JohnnyGold]

I think, unfortunately, the narrative has been written in (many) Bills fans heads that we gave up too much and the season is over.

Whaley made the move to get the Bills into the playoffs.

At this point in the season, the Bills have 6 wins faster than just about any team we've fielded for the past 15 years. Hell, if we beat the Browns on Sunday, this Bills team will be the best Bills team in 6 years--with 4 games left! Beat the Raiders after that and find a way to steal just ONE more game, and this is pretty much the best Bills team in 15 years. Yes, I agree that that is overwhelmingly pathetic, but the fact remains: Whaley got Watkins to get the Bills over the hump, and so far, it looks like he's done just that.

Plus--for the first time ever, we have an owner who may be willing to spend, AND kiko comes back next year. A major FA signing and the return of Kiko is better than any first rounder we've taken in the last 15 years.

I also think one thing that fans fail to grasp (and this doesn't surprise me, because according to the majority of our fans, we're "mathematically eliminated' from the playoffs)--great teams don't draft in the top 10 year after year. If the Pats or the Broncos gave up a first round pick for an elite receiver, their fans would not be having these kind of debates, because they would hope that pick would be low enough to not cost them much. That is where we are at.

It's unfair to post receiving statistics--post wins up there.

The Giants, the Bucs and the Panthers are god awful, and we are 6-5 and a game back from the playoffs.

[sudzy]

OK, so you don't think any other WR & next years 1st rnd pick is worth more than Sammy after all.

So you agree with me Whaley sucks as a GM. OK. Hopefully, Pegula agrees with us, too. Whaley bet the future to try to make the playoffs and save his job. Playoffs aren't likely at this point so, hopefully, Brandon/Whaley are on their way out. I'm hoping Pegula brings in a good football guy to run things. Who hire a good GM. Who can hire a good coach and find a QB and knows 1st round talent when he sees it. Then we don't have to worry about drafting the next Maybin with the 1st. So, again.... Any other 1st round WR+ next years 1st>>>> Sammy.

[better days]

So you agree with me Whaley sucks as a GM. OK. Hopefully, Pegula agrees with us, too. Whaley bet the future to try to make the playoffs and save his job. Playoffs aren't likely at this point so, hopefully, Brandon/Whaley are on their way out. I'm hoping Pegula brings in a good football guy to run things. Who hire a good GM. Who can hire a good coach and find a QB and knows 1st round talent when he sees it. Then we don't have to worry about drafting the next Maybin with the 1st. So, again.... Any other 1st round WR+ next years 1st>>>> Sammy.

What the hell are you talking about?

The fact is MAYBE one or two of the WRs drafted will prove to be as good as Sammy in the long run, but NOT all of them.

[Fletch]

At this point in the season, the Bills have 6 wins faster than just about any team we've fielded for the past 15 years. Hell, if we beat the Browns on Sunday, this Bills team will be the best Bills team in 6 years--with 4 games left! Beat the Raiders after that and find a way to steal just ONE more game, and this is pretty much the best Bills team in 15 years. Yes, I agree that that is overwhelmingly pathetic, but the fact remains: Whaley got Watkins to get the Bills over the hump, and so far, it looks like he's done just that.

LOL I think you're taking some liberties here.

We got to 6 wins just as fast in 2008 and faster in 2000 but still never had winning records. I think you're being way too premature on this given the remaining schedule. We've also had a pretty easy schedule and really haven't beaten anything but horrible offensive teams except for Miami once in two trys and not the most recent which is important to note.

We've made it to 5 wins just as quickly in many of the seasons of the last 15 years. 2008, 2007, 2004, 2002, and 2000. If we lose tomorrow then there will have been all kinds of seasons whereby we had 6 wins in 12 games, those seasons. I think you're making a mistake by assuming that we're going to win more than one maybe two of our remaining games. We haven't even come close to proving this season that we even have a chance against teams like Denver, NE, or GB or that our D is even capable of holding them under 30 points. We overachieve against crappy offenses and let average and above average offenses put up their averages or more generally speaking.

I think that you do sum up many peoples' mentality though when you say that "over the hump" means 7 wins and a 7-9 finish if it results in that. It's unfortunate but all these years of futility have made mediocrity a significant hurdle for us, which again, explains the differences between my takes and those of many others that agree with you. We can agree to disagree, but to me "over the hump" is an appearance in the playoffs or better yet a division win or victory in the playoffs that we haven't seen now in 20 years.



It's unfair to post receiving statistics--post wins up there.

The Giants, the Bucs and the Panthers are god awful, and we are 6-5 and a game back from the playoffs.

So on one hand our defense is so good that even an average offense makes this a playoff caliber team. Yet on the other hand the fact that the Giants, Bucs, and Panthers have yardage defenses that rank 28th, 21st, and 23rd and scoring defenses that rank 27th and tied for 28th, to our 2nd and 5th is meaningless in the lack of wins for those teams? Have I got that right?

[WagonCircler]

You seem to have selective eyesight.

He didn't say that any other 1st round WR is as good as Sammy.

He said and other 1st round WR PLUS next years first rounder (plus next year's 4th rounder) are greater than Sammy.

And that is undeniable.

[better days]

You seem to have selective eyesight.

He didn't say that any other 1st round WR is as good as Sammy.

He said and other 1st round WR PLUS next years first rounder (plus next year's 4th rounder) are greater than Sammy.

And that is undeniable.

No it is not undeniable.

It looks that way now, but the rookie season for these guys is not even finished.

Sammy has played injured just about the entire year which has affected him.

If he can't stay healthy next year, I will agree, but I still think it is too soon to say.

And we will have to see what the pick is that the Browns get next draft & who they use it on as well.

[Fletch]

Sammy has played injured just about the entire year which has affected him.

Says who? You and a bunch of other posters? The team hasn't said that. Neither has he. Most of the reports said it wasn't a big deal until prior to the Jets game, and as PFT points out it clearly wasn't a big deal then either. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/05/sammy-watkins-leaves-practice-with-groin-injury/

It is a convenient excuse but he hasn't been on the injury report every week, only some. His biggest game was with the injury, so how can he do it one game but not the next?

Either way, excusing 7 completely insignificant games, even 4, doesn't make sense. As well, maybe he is injury prone with both a rib injury early, during which he also posted his third biggest game and one of three over 100. So that's his biggest and third biggest while being hurt, but when he's not as bad he does almost nothing? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Three of his four big games were before he hurt his groin, the week after that

Here's what rotoworld said about Sammy prior to week 6;

Watkins is fully recovered from his rib injury. He's expected to be shadowed by Darrelle Revis this week, and can't be trusted as more than a low-end WR3. Watkins has a 24/284/2 line through five games.

Revis was on Watkins like white on rice. 4 of his worst 7 games were before his groin injury when other rookie WRs were playing much better early in the season.

This defense of Watkins as having been worth two 1st-rounders and a 4th is transparent.

The best that you can say about it is that the deal to land Sammy hasn't worked out well yet, but hopefully it will next season. That's the most optimistic anyone can be. But given how three rookie WRs are tracking to break the 1,000 yard mark as rookies, all three of which (Evans, Benjamin, Matthews) have more catchs, more yards, and more TDs, with two of the three also having a greater YPR and Catch %, which doesn't include Beckum who has better averages across the board, and none of the four that have played as many games as Sammy, and absolutely obliterate rookie receiving records, Watkins has some tremendously stiff competition and an uphill battle to prove that.

Remember, he can't just be "as good," he has to be significantly better for that deal to have made sense.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Whaley hand-selected Watkins, for all the good it did in this department, to pair with Manuel, not with a QB that we might have in the future. So while Sammy may have arguably been best for Manuel, to say that he'll be better once we get an above average QB, and for that QB, that's a reach too. If we never get that QB that the trade looks even dumber.

Right now Evans is headed for over 1,200 yards and 13 TDs and ranks 13th in yardage for WRs, 7th in YPR, and 7th in TDs. You really think that Sammy's going to prove better than that next season?

I'll be shocked if Sammy has 13 TDs and much more than 1,200 yards in next or any season in the next three, with any QB.

[Fletch]

No it is not undeniable.

It looks that way now, but the rookie season for these guys is not even finished.

Sammy has played injured just about the entire year which has affected him.

If he can't stay healthy next year, I will agree, but I still think it is too soon to say.

And we will have to see what the pick is that the Browns get next draft & who they use it on as well.

Read this bd.

http://dawgpounddaily.com/2014/11/28/sammy-watkins-vs-taylor-gabriel-sizing-rookie-wrs/

He cites that Pro Football Focus had Watkins ranked as the 5th best rookie WR behind Evans, Gabriel who wasn't even drafted, Beckum, and Landry.

Here's PFF's chart from two weeks ago.

https://twitter.com/PFF/status/532975084324257793/photo/1

Most people here seem to love PFF and their analyses. Like them or not, they do have at least somewhat a robust method for coming to their conclusions.

So yes, it is pretty much undeniable except for those that don't care about the facts in the matter.

Could things change for next season? Sure, but it's going to be extremely difficult for Watkins to bear out that that deal was worth it to land him, especially since the reason for doing so was to help Manuel but not necessarily any other QBs especially.

[sudzy]

What the hell are you talking about?



Oh, so your the only one that can spin what other people say? Let's review. I say, any other 1st round WR + next years 1st > Watkins. You claim next years 1st could be Aaron Maybin. I say "not if we have a good GM. Which I don't think we have." So you spin that into
OK, so you don't think any other WR & next years 1st rnd pick is worth more than Sammy after all. So I take that as you agree that the Bills currently don't have a good GM. That doesn't mean they won't next year.

[better days]

Oh, so your the only one that can spin what other people say? Let's review. I say, any other 1st round WR + next years 1st > Watkins. You claim next years 1st could be Aaron Maybin. I say "not if we have a good GM. Which I don't think we have." So you spin that into So I take that as you agree that the Bills currently don't have a good GM. That doesn't mean they won't next year.

Well, we don't have the draft pick, so it is up to the Browns GM as to how good that player will be.

And like I said before, this is year ONE.

MANY players have a great rookie year then fizzle out.

Let's see how Watkins & the rest of his class do for at least a few years.

[Fletch]

And like I said before, this is year ONE.

MANY players have a great rookie year then fizzle out.

Let's see how Watkins & the rest of his class do for at least a few years.

Watkins has fizzled in a lot more games than most of his peers.

How you piece together what you just said there and your position to date on Watkins is beyond me.

I realize that it doesn't matter, instead of looking at the data and facts you formulate your position and then defend it despite it being largely indefensible.

Anyway, not worth us arguing the point anymore. Any objective third party can easily see what's going on here.

I would however suggest to the Watkins apologists that they'd better hope that Watkins puts up some killer games over the next five or it's not even going to be a discussion at the end of the season.

[better days]

Says who? You and a bunch of other posters? The team hasn't said that. Neither has he. Most of the reports said it wasn't a big deal until prior to the Jets game, and as PFT points out it clearly wasn't a big deal then either. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/05/sammy-watkins-leaves-practice-with-groin-injury/

It is a convenient excuse but he hasn't been on the injury report every week, only some. His biggest game was with the injury, so how can he do it one game but not the next?

Either way, excusing 7 completely insignificant games, even 4, doesn't make sense. As well, maybe he is injury prone with both a rib injury early, during which he also posted his third biggest game and one of three over 100. So that's his biggest and third biggest while being hurt, but when he's not as bad he does almost nothing? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Three of his four big games were before he hurt his groin, the week after that

Here's what rotoworld said about Sammy prior to week 6;

Watkins is fully recovered from his rib injury. He's expected to be shadowed by Darrelle Revis this week, and can't be trusted as more than a low-end WR3. Watkins has a 24/284/2 line through five games.

Revis was on Watkins like white on rice. 4 of his worst 7 games were before his groin injury when other rookie WRs were playing much better early in the season.

This defense of Watkins as having been worth two 1st-rounders and a 4th is transparent.

The best that you can say about it is that the deal to land Sammy hasn't worked out well yet, but hopefully it will next season. That's the most optimistic anyone can be. But given how three rookie WRs are tracking to break the 1,000 yard mark as rookies, all three of which (Evans, Benjamin, Matthews) have more catchs, more yards, and more TDs, with two of the three also having a greater YPR and Catch %, which doesn't include Beckum who has better averages across the board, and none of the four that have played as many games as Sammy, and absolutely obliterate rookie receiving records, Watkins has some tremendously stiff competition and an uphill battle to prove that.

Remember, he can't just be "as good," he has to be significantly better for that deal to have made sense.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Whaley hand-selected Watkins, for all the good it did in this department, to pair with Manuel, not with a QB that we might have in the future. So while Sammy may have arguably been best for Manuel, to say that he'll be better once we get an above average QB, and for that QB, that's a reach too. If we never get that QB that the trade looks even dumber.

Right now Evans is headed for over 1,200 yards and 13 TDs and ranks 13th in yardage for WRs, 7th in YPR, and 7th in TDs. You really think that Sammy's going to prove better than that next season?

I'll be shocked if Sammy has 13 TDs and much more than 1,200 yards in next or any season in the next three, with any QB.

Groin injuries are sporadic. And NOBODY knows how much it has bothered Sammy.

It has bothered him since Training Camp & everyone knows that.

He may have put up 257 yards if he was fully healthy against the Jets or put that many up in other games he did nothing in if fully healthy.

[Fletch]

Groin injuries are sporadic. And NOBODY knows how much it has bothered Sammy.

It has bothered him since Training Camp & everyone knows that.

He may have put up 257 yards if he was fully healthy against the Jets or put that many up in other games he did nothing in if fully healthy.

Well yeah, and he might have had 1,500 yards by now too. Anything could have happened and he's not the only rookie WR that has had injuries. Beckum missed four games due to a hammy injury, otherwise by your logic he'd be leading the league right now with almost 1,000 yards, seriously, he's averaged a pace that would have put him at 957 yards and 9 TDs. That would translate to almost 1,400 yards and 11 TDs which would shatter rookie records. To suggest that any rookie WR ever has played that well on a per-game basis suggest that whomever were to suggest that clearly isn't informed as to the historical facts.

Either way, everyone gets it. Those supporting Sammy have nothing to go on but things that could have happened and excuses for his injuries, neither of which seems to have slowed him down since his biggest games were with them, he just couldn't do anything in the others. We're expected to believe that he's so good that other teams constantly double cover him and he serves us better as a decoy despite the fact that Revis and other very good CBs have simply shut him down.

Unfortunately we'll have to wait for next season as we see who was available at whatever spot we would have drafted in that may have helped us make an impact next year as that player goes by and we have to wait another round to make a pick, and to see how Watkins does then.

[sudzy]

Don't forget this is the same guy that spent all last off season arguing about what a good pick EJ was.

[Fletch]

Don't forget this is the same guy that spent all last off season arguing about what a good pick EJ was.

Yeah, but you know things go around here.

.

[jills]

I already covered the topic in my initial post.

I don't care, read the question again.

What does your post have to do with the topic?

[Bill Cody]

My god. People can't be this dumb. If The Bills didn't move up. Tampa would have taken Watkins at 7. No other team needed a WR.

nope

[Fletch]

Rotoworld:


Sammy Watkins caught 3-of-9 targets for just 11 yards in Buffalo's Week 13 win over the Browns.

Stuck in Joe Haden's shadow, Watkins had zero room to operate. He was the target on each of Kyle Orton's interceptions, neither of which came close to being a completion. Things won't get much easier for Watkins against the Broncos' stout secondary in Week 14. With Orton's play going off a cliff, Watkins has settled in as a boom-or-bust WR2/3. Nov 30 - 5:22 PM



Woods and Hogan seem to have no trouble putting up relevant numbers.

[trapezeus]

niec cut and paste. other wr are putting up numbers when another guy is double teamed. you realize this makes you look like...what's the word? i guess it just makes you look like fletch.

[better days]

Don't forget this is the same guy that spent all last off season arguing about what a good pick EJ was.

If you are talking about me, I did no such thing.

I wanted the Bills to draft Mike Glennon myself.

[WagonCircler]

niec cut and paste. other wr are putting up numbers when another guy is double teamed. you realize this makes you look like...what's the word? i guess it just makes you look like fletch.

Sorry, but a decoy who gets double teamed can be gotten for a lot less than two first round draft choices and a fourth round draft choice.

I like Sammy. He's going to go to several Pro Bowls. But we WAYYYY overpaid for him (not in dollars).

[trapezeus]

i've agreed that the trade was a bad idea for a WR, but what is done is done. and the way the bills typically draft, it's amazing they got someone who is actually very good and has potential to get better.

you have a QB who has fallen off a cliff accuracy wise and an OC who seems to enjoy settling for FG as the best possible option. Given those conditions, plus injury, he's playing better than expected.

Frankly the more questionable WR trade was the one for williams. we could have used a 6th round pick and used a bubble player on ST. that's a real head scratcher that has almost no value.

[better days]

i've agreed that the trade was a bad idea for a WR, but what is done is done. and the way the bills typically draft, it's amazing they got someone who is actually very good and has potential to get better.

you have a QB who has fallen off a cliff accuracy wise and an OC who seems to enjoy settling for FG as the best possible option. Given those conditions, plus injury, he's playing better than expected.

Frankly the more questionable WR trade was the one for williams. we could have used a 6th round pick and used a bubble player on ST. that's a real head scratcher that has almost no value.

The head scratcher for me is why Marrone refuses to use Mike Williams after the Bills traded for him.

At the very least, Mike would help in the red zone...if Marrone knew what he was doing & played him.