End of the Tampa Bay/Cincinnati

[feldspar]

I don't get it.

Since when can the officials take it upon themselves to review a play based on a penalty THAT WASN'T CALLED when there is under two minutes to play? I don't recall ever having seen that.

So the Bucs are down by one-point with time running out. They make a twenty-yard pass play (or something like that) with about 12 seconds left as they line up for the next play. At that point, it would have been like a 37-yard fieldgoal attempt. Marvin Lewis throws a challenge flag, even though he is not allowed to do that under two minutes. This costs his team a timeout. During that process, I guess he somehow convinces the refs to review the play and check to see if there were 12 men on the field...there WAS 12 men on the field, but I didn't think a review could be based on a penalty or lack thereof.

So the refs review the play and determine that there were 12 men on the field for the Bucs, and then throw a flag for that AFTER the review. That's the way I saw it...the Bucs were taken out of field goal range as a result, and it pretty much cost them the game. Why can't the refs review whether a hold happened or anything else in that circumstance?

What am I missing?

Also, I feel the Ravens got jobbed at the end of the game against the Chargers as well.

[YardRat]

12 men on the field is actually reviewable.

[feldspar]

12 men on the field is actually reviewable.

Why that and not other penalties?

Makes no sense.

But the thing here is that the Bengals didn't have any challenges left, yet they effectively got one. The refs were NOT going to review that play until the challenge flag was thrown. Again, the Bengals had no challenges within two minutes...nobody does. That's kind of the main point.

[imbondz]

Cuz the refs don't know what's going on.

[YardRat]

Why that and not other penalties?

Makes no sense.

But the thing here is that the Bengals didn't have any challenges left, yet they effectively got one. The refs were NOT going to review that play until the challenge flag was thrown. Again, the Bengals had no challenges within two minutes...nobody does. That's kind of the main point.

Don't know for sure, but I believe I read or heard somewhere because it's not a judgement call by the officials...there are either 12 men on the field, or not, and it's cut and dried.

I can't answer the main point, I guess.

[feldspar]

Don't know for sure, but I believe I read or heard somewhere because it's not a judgement call by the officials...there are either 12 men on the field, or not, and it's cut and dried.

I can't answer the main point, I guess.

Refs screwed up TWICE on the same play, really. No other explanation.

Sure, "justice" was served...I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it had I not wanted the Bengals to lose. LOL. But still, the refs should not have had any reason to review that play.

They clearly missed the fact that there were 12 men on the field, and the only reason they reviewed the play was because of the illegal challenge flag. In effect, Marvin Lewis challenged a play when it was against the rules for him to do so. That's the way I see it.

I thought the Ravens got bent over more than that at the end of the Chargers game, though.

[Fixxxer]

Lewis should have been penalized for throwing the flag under the 2' mark, much like Schwartz was when he was the Lions' HC.

[Owen DeBoard]

What about the Bozo ref that overturned the Bills second D touchdown. Im glad the game was already over score wise or that would've really made me mad.

[SquishDaFish]

Lewis should have been penalized for throwing the flag under the 2' mark, much like Schwartz was when he was the Lions' HC.

They reviewed and changed that rule this offseason. Last year its a 15 yard penalty and 15 sec run off

[Fletch]

Yeah, and what about that bogus Henry Jones PI penalty in the end zone?

This just in, NFL officials suck. Always have.

Now we have reviews, ... and 3-1/2 hour games.

[Fixxxer]

They reviewed and changed that rule this offseason. Last year its a 15 yard penalty and 15 sec run off

didn't know this, thanks for the update.

[pmoon6]

What about the Bozo ref that overturned the Bills second D touchdown. Im glad the game was already over score wise or that would've really made me mad.Even Mike Carrey said it was a fumble/touchdown. Booger thought different. No way that was an incomplete pass.

However, they can't make Johnny Football look like a chump out of the gate. The NFL tries to protect a potential future superstar. Look what they do for Brady and Manning. They could have five 350 lb homeless guys playing on their respective O-Lines. Just teach them to hold to protect the girls and they make the Pro Bowl.

[Night Train]

We should have hired Lovie !

:rolleyes:

[OpIv37]

Even Mike Carrey said it was a fumble/touchdown. Booger thought different. No way that was an incomplete pass.

However, they can't make Johnny Football look like a chump out of the gate. The NFL tries to protect a potential future superstar. Look what they do for Brady and Manning. They could have five 350 lb homeless guys playing on their respective O-Lines. Just teach them to hold to protect the girls and they make the Pro Bowl.

I had the exact same thought. Despite all the success of our D this year, the NFL is willing to show them up to protect some punk kid who has proven nothing. But the Bills fans come out no matter what, and both the lovers and the haters transcend Cleveland. The money is in keeping the myth alive as long as possible and not in giving Kyle Williams his due.

[imbondz]

The end of this game is infuriating. Bengals losing totally helps us

[YardRat]

I was afraid it was going to be a tuck rule call as soon as it happened. That douche Carey got my hopes up, though, during the review.

[stuckincincy]

Why that and not other penalties?

Makes no sense.

But the thing here is that the Bengals didn't have any challenges left, yet they effectively got one. The refs were NOT going to review that play until the challenge flag was thrown. Again, the Bengals had no challenges within two minutes...nobody does. That's kind of the main point.

The NFL review crew takes control after the 2 minute warning.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/nfl-review-rules3.htm

Throwing a red flag after the 2 minute warning is nothing but tossing a piece of colored cloth - a head coach could toss his upper dentures on the field for all the effect it has.

Coach-for-life Lewis was right to raise a stink and jog the booth replay crew into doing their job. TB holds responsibility for having 12 on the field at their own snap.

BTW, it was a lousy game. Leading 14 - 10 in the 3rd, c.f.l. Marvin orders an on-side kick (!) that fails. Just one example. Dalton, who tossed 3 ugly ints was spinning the whole game, with a serious bout of the flu. The announcers mentioned that he had 2 bags of IV fluid before the start of the game and opined more at halftime.

[imbondz]

How can the refs call a penalty on a review that wasn't called during the play? Thered be a penalty called after every review then

[stuckincincy]

How can the refs call a penalty on a review that wasn't called during the play? Thered be a penalty called after every review then

They review ball placement, scoring, forward progress, possession in the case of turnovers, whether or not a player is down, clock errors, out or in bounds, and pre-snap infractions - like 12 men on the field. They don't review in-play things like off sides, interference, personal fouls, holding, and so on.

Lewis was correct in raising the issue - the job of the NFL replay booth is just that - to review plays to see if or if not procedure was violated. I don't know if you saw the game on tv, but I did, and the CBS techniacal people superimposed numbers on the Bucs players before the snap. 1, 2, 3...oops, 12.

[imbondz]

I thought Lewis through the flag for another reason, not 12 men on the field

[MikeInRoch]

The end of this game is infuriating. Bengals losing totally helps us

No it doesn't. The Bengals are going to win their division - the other AFC North teams matter.

[stuckincincy]

No it doesn't. The Bengals are going to win their division - the other AFC North teams matter.

Rooting for CIN victories is exactly what BUF fans should do. They are currently 5 -3 in the AFC and are 2 and 1 in their division. Their last 4 games are home and away vs. PGH, at CLE, and home against DEN. Goody for them if they sweep and get the AFC North crown. But also goody for BUF, because that means that PGH loses 2 AFC contests, CLE and DEN one.

Likewise, root for DEN to knock off KC. BUF isn't winning the AFC East, so hope that others act to give BUF a shot in the WC tie breakers.


HOU winning - Fitz tossed 6 tds today - doesn't help. They climb to 6 and 6 and get an AFC win.

[better days]

12 men on the field is actually reviewable.

What was BS is that it was reviewed AFTER Lewis threw a challenge flag illegally.

But what was bigger bs was the called back TD on the Bills in that game.

[better days]

They review ball placement, scoring, forward progress, possession in the case of turnovers, whether or not a player is down, clock errors, out or in bounds, and pre-snap infractions - like 12 men on the field. They don't review in-play things like off sides, interference, personal fouls, holding, and so on.

Lewis was correct in raising the issue - the job of the NFL replay booth is just that - to review plays to see if or if not procedure was violated. I don't know if you saw the game on tv, but I did, and the CBS techniacal people superimposed numbers on the Bucs players before the snap. 1, 2, 3...oops, 12.

I will give credit to Lewis for knowing the rules which he should, being on the competition committee.

But it was BS they reviewed that because of an illegal flag Lewis threw.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

No it doesn't. The Bengals are going to win their division - the other AFC North teams matter.

Any AFC contending team losing to an NFC team helps us.

[feldspar]

But it was BS they reviewed that because of an illegal flag Lewis threw.

My point exactly.

[MikeInRoch]

It would have been reviewed if Cincy had called timeout - which is what he tried to do first, but couldn't get an official's attention.

[gebobs]

How about the game-winning toss from Rivers to Royal? At the snap, Keenan Allen lays a block on Anthony Levine, who is covering Royal, while the ball is in the air. How is that not OPI? The Chargers pulled that same crap on the Bills too.

[trapezeus]

reffing in general has gotten to the point that you need a lawyer to sort out what is a catch, what rule applies when, and when it's actually a fumble.

in my opinion, it seems like the refs like their little huddles and conferences because it can set up more commercials. yesterdays bills/browns game, barely had any flow to it. every play was seemingly getting flagged for both teams. and some of it was ridiculously ticky tacky on both sides. the last 2 years, most games, bills or not, have slowed to a crawl.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

How about the game-winning toss from Rivers to Royal? At the snap, Keenan Allen lays a block on Anthony Levine, who is covering Royal, while the ball is in the air. How is that not OPI? The Chargers pulled that same crap on the Bills too.

A block within a yard of the LOS is not OPI regardless of where the ball is. This was a particularly easy call because the LOS was the one yard line. Allen blocks him between the 1 and the goal line = legal play.

[stuckincincy]

It would have been reviewed if Cincy had called timeout - which is what he tried to do first, but couldn't get an official's attention.


Yep.

There's a photo in the Cinci Enquirer today showing Lewis and DC Paul Guenther emphatically trying to get a ref's attention - the red flag is still in Lewis' pocket.

The Bucs had 12 men (five offensive lineman, an offensive lineman as a tight end, four receivers, a running back and a quarterback) on the field for two plays, as it turned out. After the pass play, they sped up to spike the ball on the 20 for a fg try - with the same 12 men on the field.

They were bringing in OT Oneil Cousins as a tight end throughout the game - he reported as eligible 26 times.

You have to like Bucs coach Lovie Smith for the way he opened up the post-game press conference, saying "That’s how 2-10 football teams play."

[better days]

It would have been reviewed if Cincy had called timeout - which is what he tried to do first, but couldn't get an official's attention.

Well that is too bad he couldn't get the officials attention.

The fact is it was an ILLEGAL move to throw that flag.

[gebobs]

A block within a yard of the LOS is not OPI regardless of where the ball is. This was a particularly easy call because the LOS was the one yard line. Allen blocks him between the 1 and the goal line = legal play.

Never knew that. I don't see that in the rules (http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/passinterference) though. What I see is:

Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched.

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:
(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.
(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.
(c) Driving through a defender who has established a position on the field.

Actions that do not constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:
(a) Incidental contact by a receiver’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball or neither player is looking for the ball.
(b) Inadvertent touching of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball.
(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the ball is clearly uncatchable by involved players.

[lavuuk153]

Well that is too bad he couldn't get the officials attention.

The fact is it was an ILLEGAL move to throw that flag.

Why does it matter that it was illegal? The penalty is a loss of time out. The rule was changed after the Schwartz incident so the penalty is just a loss of a time out and the previous play is still eligible for review.

[better days]

Why does it matter that it was illegal? The penalty is a loss of time out. The rule was changed after the Schwartz incident so the penalty is just a loss of a time out and the previous play is still eligible for review.

Why does it matter that anything is illegal?

Why have any rules at all?

[MikeInRoch]

Well that is too bad he couldn't get the officials attention.

The fact is it was an ILLEGAL move to throw that flag.

Yes. And he PAID THE PENALTY for doing something illegal. So?

[feldspar]

Yes. And he PAID THE PENALTY for doing something illegal. So?

I'm not sure if you understand the concept here.

Do you really think that the refs would have reviewed the play to check if the Bucs had 12 men on the field had Lewis not thrown that flag? I don't. Therefore, he got his challenge in effect, even though he was not allowed to do so BY RULE.

I guess the NFL is begging for these types of stupid discussions to take place...this is the way it's trending.

[better days]

Yes. And he PAID THE PENALTY for doing something illegal. So?

I already gave Lewis credit for knowing the rules.

He helped write them, so he should know them

Lewis knew the penalty he would get for throwing the challenge flag was MUCH less than the penalty the Bucs would get.

[stuckincincy]

I already gave Lewis credit for knowing the rules.

He helped write them, so he should know them

Lewis knew the penalty he would get for throwing the challenge flag was MUCH less than the penalty the Bucs would get.


The Bucs deserved what they got - a 5 yard penalty for having 12 men on the field that moved the ball back to the CIN 46. You wouldn't want them to get away with anything ILLEGAL, would you?

[better days]

The Bucs deserved what they got - a 5 yard penalty for having 12 men on the field that moved the ball back to the CIN 46. You wouldn't want them to get away with anything ILLEGAL, would you?

Well, teams get away with illegal stuff all the time.

But this year, I will take that loss in stride knowing the Bucs will be better for it come draft day

[lavuuk153]

Why does it matter that anything is illegal?

Why have any rules at all?

A delay of game is illegal. Yet teams do it all the time when they want to punt and the ball is at the 39 so their punter has more room. Should there be an outcry over that? What Lewis did was smart. He broke a rule, paid the penalty, and in doing so got the review he wanted.

[better days]

A delay of game is illegal. Yet teams do it all the time when they want to punt and the ball is at the 39 so their punter has more room. Should there be an outcry over that? What Lewis did was smart. He broke a rule, paid the penalty, and in doing so got the review he wanted.

I already gave him credit for doing that.

Lewis is a MEDIOCRE HC, but he does know the rules.

[lavuuk153]

I'm not sure if you understand the concept here.

Do you really think that the refs would have reviewed the play to check if the Bucs had 12 men on the field had Lewis not thrown that flag? I don't. Therefore, he got his challenge in effect, even though he was not allowed to do so BY RULE.

I guess the NFL is begging for these types of stupid discussions to take place...this is the way it's trending.

Has the NFL ever stated why teams can't challenge under 2 minutes? I would love to hear the reasoning because I really can't think of a good one.

[lavuuk153]

I already gave him credit for doing that.

Lewis is a MEDIOCRE HC, but he does know the rules.

Yup, I saw that after I posted.

I have no idea how he's kept his job this long.

[YardRat]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/152156/inside-slant-marvin-lewis-introduces-new-challenge-strategy

Lewis undoubtedly challenged before there was any sign of a booth review. About seven seconds passed between the time he dropped the flag and when whistles from Leavy's crew stopped the clock. The question is whether the Bucs would have gotten off their next play, and thus eliminated the possibility of an official review, if Lewis hadn't committed an illegal act. Did a penalty actually work in favor of the team it was charged to?

That's not the type of rule manipulation the NFL nor any other league would endorse, and vice president of officiating Dean Blandino moved quickly to dispel it. Via Twitter (https://twitter.com/DeanBlandino/status/539166461495742465), Blandino said that replay official Larry Nemmers "was stopping the game for review when Lewis threw the flag" and asserted: "It would have been looked at regardless." Addressing the gap in time between Lewis throwing the flag and the first indication of a review, Blandino tweeted (https://twitter.com/DeanBlandino/status/539169045971341312) that the replay official "has to wait to see if the offense can get lined up legally before stopping the game."

[better days]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/152156/inside-slant-marvin-lewis-introduces-new-challenge-strategy

Lewis undoubtedly challenged before there was any sign of a booth review. About seven seconds passed between the time he dropped the flag and when whistles from Leavy's crew stopped the clock. The question is whether the Bucs would have gotten off their next play, and thus eliminated the possibility of an official review, if Lewis hadn't committed an illegal act. Did a penalty actually work in favor of the team it was charged to?

That's not the type of rule manipulation the NFL nor any other league would endorse, and vice president of officiating Dean Blandino moved quickly to dispel it. Via Twitter (https://twitter.com/DeanBlandino/status/539166461495742465), Blandino said that replay official Larry Nemmers "was stopping the game for review when Lewis threw the flag" and asserted: "It would have been looked at regardless." Addressing the gap in time between Lewis throwing the flag and the first indication of a review, Blandino tweeted (https://twitter.com/DeanBlandino/status/539169045971341312) that the replay official "has to wait to see if the offense can get lined up legally before stopping the game."

LMAO at Blandino & the NFL Officials.

Let him explain about taking away the TD the Bills SHOULD have had.

[YardRat]

LMAO at Blandino & the NFL Officials.

Let him explain about taking away the TD the Bills SHOULD have had.

There's a blurb on that in the same article.

[better days]

There's a blurb on that in the same article.

Manziels arm was not going forward when he FUMBLED the ball.

It should have been called what it was, a fumble.

[YardRat]

Manziels arm was not going forward when he FUMBLED the ball.

It should have been called what it was, a fumble.

Yeah, I don't disagree. I haven't watched the replay other than the several times they showed it yesterday, but IMO it was pretty clear Johnny Football was attempting to bring the ball back into his body, not throw it forward...and that's a matter of trying to retain control and possession, not releasing it. Hell, even he knew it was a fumble, made obvious by the sideline shots of his shaking his head because he turned the ball over.

[better days]

Yeah, I don't disagree. I haven't watched the replay other than the several times they showed it yesterday, but IMO it was pretty clear Johnny Football was attempting to bring the ball back into his body, not throw it forward...and that's a matter of trying to retain control and possession, not releasing it. Hell, even he knew it was a fumble, made obvious by the sideline shots of his shaking his head because he turned the ball over.

Manziel even said in post game comments he didn't think it was an incomplete pass.

[lavuuk153]

Yeah, I don't disagree. I haven't watched the replay other than the several times they showed it yesterday, but IMO it was pretty clear Johnny Football was attempting to bring the ball back into his body, not throw it forward...and that's a matter of trying to retain control and possession, not releasing it. Hell, even he knew it was a fumble, made obvious by the sideline shots of his shaking his head because he turned the ball over.

I only saw it a few times, but even if his arm was moving forward, didn't the ball go backwards? Doesn't that negate whether it was a passing motion or not since it could just be ruled a lateral?

[YardRat]

I only saw it a few times, but even if his arm was moving forward, didn't the ball go backwards?

Yes


Doesn't that negate whether it was a passing motion or not since it could just be ruled a lateral?

No

[feldspar]

Blandino said that replay official Larry Nemmers "was stopping the game for review when Lewis threw the flag" and asserted: "It would have been looked at regardless."

I don't buy that for a second.

Not for a second.

I was watching it live.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Never knew that. I don't see that in the rules (http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/passinterference) though. What I see is:

Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched.

Actions that constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:
(a) Blocking downfield by an offensive player prior to the ball being touched.
(b) Initiating contact with a defender by shoving or pushing off thus creating a separation in an attempt to catch a pass.
(c) Driving through a defender who has established a position on the field.

Actions that do not constitute offensive pass interference include but are not limited to:
(a) Incidental contact by a receiver’s hands, arms, or body when both players are competing for the ball or neither player is looking for the ball.
(b) Inadvertent touching of feet when both players are playing the ball or neither player is playing the ball.
(c) Contact that would normally be considered pass interference, but the ball is clearly uncatchable by involved players.

Your link is a rules digest, which for some reason omits the important phrase.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_2013_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

Page 6, Sec. 5, Article 1: "It is pass interference by either team when any act by a player more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders the progress of an eligible receiver’s opportunity to catch the ball."

TBH I don't know why they have the 1 yard exception there, but that's the justification.

[CleveSteve]

I had the exact same thought. Despite all the success of our D this year, the NFL is willing to show them up to protect some punk kid who has proven nothing. But the Bills fans come out no matter what, and both the lovers and the haters transcend Cleveland. The money is in keeping the myth alive as long as possible and not in giving Kyle Williams his due.

I think Manziel is unfairly labeled as a punk kid. In the post-game interview he said "I not once thought that might be an incomplete pass." He was saying basically he fumbled and he needed to play better. That being said, it looked like total tuck rule to me... now the fact that the tuck rule even exists is totally dumb to me but that looked like a classic example to me.