What would it require for Marrone/Whaley to keep their jobs?

[BuffaloRedleg]

So we're 7-5. It's not a particularly strong 7-5, but who's ever is? We don't get credit for close losses so I for the most part don't mind giving credit for close wins. That's just the way the NFL is, so I'll just leave it at that. With some exceptions you are what your record says you are.

How does the rest of the season need to play out for the Bills for you to think that Marrone/Whaley should remain on board?

Should they already be secure even if we lose out?

Will 9-7 do it? That means we'll have beat 1 of the 3 best teams in the league and I'm assuming the Raiders. Not good enough for playoffs, but enough to keep their jobs? Does it matter which of the 3 teams the win is over? I'm on the fence on this. I think that I would have to see how it plays out before I make a call on this record. If we played all of our last games pretty well but just get beat close then I think 9-7 is good enough for me.

Will 10-6 do it? That would require a Herculean effort by the team, but would it save their jobs? I'd like to see someone argue how 10-6 would not be enough that they should keep their jobs, but I know there are some guys around here who will do so. Playoffs or no, I believe they should keep their jobs without question at 10-6.

If not 10-6, would 11-5 do it? That's winning out. Come on, if you think they should be fired after that I don't know what to tell you.

Before some of you get your panties in a bunch, I'm not saying the Bills will do these things. At least one person is going to respond "not worth talking about because there is no chance" and that is completely missing the point.

We are just talking hypothetical. I'm trying to gauge where people are at with the duo currently. I think it's good to get these things on record for when we argue about it inevitably at the end of the season.

[Typ0]

already secure.

[TacklingDummy]

Why would they be going anywhere?

[BuffaloRedleg]

Why would they be going anywhere?

If they lost all of their remaining games you wouldn't think they should be fired?

I sure would.

[TacklingDummy]

If they lost all of their remaining games you wouldn't think they should be fired?

I sure would.
Regardless how they finish, being the new owner I would be firing Whaley for trading away next years 1st and 4th to move up to draft a WR when they don't have a Quarterback.

No coach is going to succeed without a QB, so I would give Doug a pass this year.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Regardless how they finish, being the new owner I would be firing Whaley for trading away next years 1st and 4th to move up to draft a WR when they don't have a Quarterback.

No coach is going to succeed without a QB, so I would give Doug a pass this year.

So if they went 11-5 you would still fire Whaley for trading that pick? I mean, if we're going to get that hypothetical then what if they won the Superbowl?

Your mind is that made up to the point that absolutely nothing they can do will change that?

Interesting.

[TacklingDummy]

So if they went 11-5 you would still fire Whaley for trading that pick? I mean, if we're going to get that hypothetical then what if they won the Superbowl.

I'm not playing the what if game, I'm playing the what I would do game.

I'd fire Whaley for what I stated above.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I'm not playing the what if game, I'm playing the what I would do game.

I'd fire Whaley for what I stated above.

Why would you respond to a thread where you refuse to address the presented topic?

It's a simple question. If the Bills made the playoffs, would you still fire Whaley?

[imbondz]

No one on this board thought we'd be 7-5 at this point. 7-9 / 8-8 Marrone keeps his job.

[TacklingDummy]

Why would you respond to a thread where you refuse to address the presented topic?

It's a simple question. If the Bills made the playoffs, would you still fire Whaley?
I told you if I was owner I'd fire him regardless how they finished.

[YardRat]

They are safe for next season at this point, and both should be.

[Fletch]

What would it require for Marrone/Whaley to keep their jobs?

You know my take from our conversations.

Whaley's two biggest moves easily have been Manuel and Watkins and he's choked on both. Not on Watkins because he's bad, but because there were at minimum equal, likely better, WRs available with our original pick last year. He could have done equal and maybe better and kept our picks. He promised playoffs as a result and won't have delivered. He should be fired. He even says so himself, so it shouldn't be a big surprise.

Marrone can be fired this year or next, it won't matter. He's been in over his head since he was hired. Poor hire to begin with, so why not move on from it.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I told you if I was owner I'd fire him regardless how they finished.

Yep. Got it. You'd fire him for the Watkins trade even if the Bills win the Superbowl.

[BuffaloRedleg]

You know my take from our conversations.

Whaley's two biggest moves easily have been Manuel and Watkins and he's choked on both. Not on Watkins because he's bad, but because there were at minimum equal, likely better, WRs available with our original pick last year. He could have done equal and maybe better and kept our picks. He promised playoffs as a result and won't have delivered. He should be fired. He even says so himself, so it shouldn't be a big surprise.

Marrone can be fired this year or next, it won't matter. He's been in over his head since he was hired. Poor hire to begin with, so why not move on from it.

So would you still consider it a failure if the Bills finish 10-6? What about 11-5?

Although we can safely assume we know how the season ends, I'm not asking that. I'm asking what it would take for them to keep their jobs.

[WagonCircler]

10-6 would be the Mendoza line for me. They would have to beat two damn good teams to get there.

I don't think they will.

That said, I also think Whaley and Marrone, despite being the very definition of mediocrity, will get to stay anyway.

[Fletch]

So would you still consider it a failure if the Bills finish 10-6? What about 11-5?

No, of course not. But why not just say if we win the Super Bowl. Odds of us finishing better than 8-8 are remote. We haven't even proven that we can play teams like Denver, GB, and NE competitively much less come close to winning. I'd say that the odds of us beating one of them are about the same as us losing to the Raiders, maybe worse.



Although we can safely assume we know how the season ends, I'm not asking that. I'm asking what it would take for them to keep their jobs.

This depends upon whom you ask. I say that if Whaley doesn't deliver on his promise to take this team to the playoffs, which was based upon his move to acquire Watkins, which is now looking like yet one more loser move that this team has made, then IMO he deserves to get canned. Clearly he thought he should get canned if EJ didn't work out. If you haven't watched it yet, watch the video below, he even says that. Well, he's failed there too. Five years of him being the top dog for personnel, I've seen enough, again, if he does not deliver.

As to Marrone, like I said, I thought that he was a bad hire and I'd just get rid of him for that. He's in over his head. I don't like it when we have coaches here that we have to wait for to get up to speed. You never know how long that might take if it ever happens at all. Besides, without a 1st he's toast next year anyway.

This is a great time for Pegula to clean house. I'm going to be disappointed and upset if he does not avail himself of the opportunity. Any failure to do so means dragging our illustrious past into the future instead of turning over a new leaf and hoping for much better as an organization on a regular basis.

- - - Updated - - -


That said, I also think Whaley and Marrone, despite being the very definition of mediocrity, will get to stay anyway.

I agree although it would be unfortunate.

[BertSquirtgum]

I told you if I was owner I'd fire him regardless how they finished.

This post is an idiot.

[X-Era]

They are safe for next season at this point, and both should be.At this point...

We have a real chance to win only 1 more game. Even 2 wins probably won't get us in the playoffs. I think you're looking at 3 wins to get in and I just can't see it.

And without the playoffs and no long term QB solution and no 1st rounder? I could see Pegula thinking we're still a ways off.

[WagonCircler]

At this point...

We have a real chance to win only 1 more game. Even 2 wins probably won't get us in the playoffs. I think you're looking at 3 wins to get in and I just can't see it.

And without the playoffs and no long term QB solution and no 1st rounder? I could see Pegula thinking we're still a ways off.

I agree.

I said 10-6 is my line, but even at 9-6, I could understand the logic. It means that they had to beat Oakland and one of the top three teams in the league.

But if they only beat Oakland, and nobody else, then get the broom out.

[The Beef]

I think Marrone wouldn get the option to fire Hackett and get one more year.

I would not get rid of Whaley, period. He's (been a big part at minimum) taking 2 swings with EJ and Sammy, and EJ was a miss. Those may not light a fire under your ass, what would?

Brown, Bradham, and Alonso in the draft. Spikes signed.

Dareus drafted, Mario signed, Hughes traded for.

Robey as an undrafted FA, Graham as a great FA pickup. Gilmore hasn't been Richard Sherman but he's picked his game up after a slow start to the season.

This guy has put together a hell of a defense. You put those guys I'm the front 7 and all of the sudden Searcy, McKelvin and A. Williams are all serviceable/above average.

Also say what you will but Woods, Hogan and Watkins make for a solid WR corp. Whaley has also tried to get more athletic at TE with Gragg, Gray, Moeaki etc. I think he will move out of the mild of finding a gadget speed wideout. Graham and Goodwin were novelty players. They were trying to land the next Wallace or Brown aka the Steelers, but focus on the raw speed and not the nuance of the position.

He's also not too stubborn to let the team die at the hand of EJ by picking up Orton.

I really feel Whaley has done a great job of building a complete team, and despite his misses he has built a team with an identity. This defense will hit you in the mouth. The LB's are big and physical, the DLINE is tenacious, and the secondary plays smart and solid.

If he finds a way to re-up Hughes and Dareus this year and next I don't know how you could argue against what he's built.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

At 7-9 you have to think about it, but beyond that I think your expectations are out of whack. Cleaning house after a two game improvement? That's a massive, massive overreaction IMO. Hackett might need to go, depending on how we close out.

But seriously? If we got to 8-8? That's our best record in ten seasons and we'd still be running the guys out of town after only two years? The only way I'd do that is to land Harbaugh.

[WagonCircler]

I would not get rid of Whaley, period. He's (been a big part at minimum) taking 2 swings with EJ and Sammy, and EJ was a miss. Those may not light a fire under your ass, what would?

This would seem to imply that desire is the problem. Like, wanting it more or working harder would somehow make awful, season-killing decisions, turn into wisdom, or at least good judgement and shrewd deal making.

Desire isn't the problem. Well, at least not in the way it's presented here. It is a problem in that Whaley was so eager to make a name for himself that he made a sucker's play to move up and get Watkins. Even if Sammy goes to multiple Pro Bowls, which he very well may, it doesn't even come close to making up for the damage that Whaley did in overspending for him in the absence of a QB--a situation which Whaley played a large part in creating in the first place.

Whaley chose to gamble with his Dad's money, and he lost. He chose to make a big splash, rather than sound, smart, long term strategy. He made a "look at me!" deal. And he failed.

That's not to say that he hasn't done good things. He certainly has. But it's not enough.

FINALLY this franchise is in a position to pay serious money on a serious management/coaching staff. I could see Terry poaching some exec away from a cushy situation by paying him double the going rate. For once, after 50+ years of Ralph paying peanuts to coaches and GMs, I want to see that happen.

The Bills are in a position to compete financially with any team in the NFL, in an area of the game with no salary cap. You can't tell me that, if money were no object, the go-to pick would be Doug Whaley. That's just ridiculous.

[Fletch]

At 7-9 you have to think about it, but beyond that I think your expectations are out of whack. Cleaning house after a two game improvement? That's a massive, massive overreaction IMO. Hackett might need to go, depending on how we close out.

But seriously? If we got to 8-8? That's our best record in ten seasons and we'd still be running the guys out of town after only two years? The only way I'd do that is to land Harbaugh.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way and more from a media perspective than from a managerial perspective.

There's no reason why we shouldn't be 11-5 this season, maybe better.

Draft Wilson in the 3rd a couple of years ago or get Alex Smith and QB problem solved. The rest falls into place after that with good management.

Assuming we beat the Raiders, 8-8 is meaningless unless we improve on that next year. Who thinks that's going to happen right now? No 1st, no QBs available in free agency, who knows who leaves this offseason.

We're where we have been since 2010 because of Whaley.

Otherwise WagonCircler just summed it up.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way and more from a media perspective than from a managerial perspective.

There's no reason why we shouldn't be 11-5 this season, maybe better.

Draft Wilson in the 3rd a couple of years ago or get Alex Smith and QB problem solved. The rest falls into place after that with good management.

Assuming we beat the Raiders, 8-8 is meaningless unless we improve on that next year. Who thinks that's going to happen right now? No 1st, no QBs available in free agency, who knows who leaves this offseason.

We're where we have been since 2010 because of Whaley.

Otherwise WagonCircler just summed it up.

It drove me crazy when Nix was given credit for moves that were made by AJ Smith or Russ Brandon, so I think its only fair to give him credit for moves made while he was GM and Whaley was underneath him. Nix was the one who passed on Wilson and Smith.

Further, you are upset that we don't have a first round pick next year and no QBs in free agency so somehow we can't improve? Your own examples of missed opportunities at QB are Russell Wilson (3rd rounder) and Alex Smith (traded for 2 2nd rounders). Setting aside that Smith is spectacularly overrated (find one measure where he is significantly better than Kyle Orton) you seem to believe talent can be found at the qb position outside the first. So why is the trade for our first such a deal breaker? I'm trying to understand the logic behind the criticism here.

And for you to spend the entire season complaining about the talent on this team and then sit there and claim we should be 11-5 is utterly laughable. These are actual things you've posted this season:


Last season we were ranked 20th in PA, I expect that to get worse.

Last season we were ranked 28th in rushing yards allowed, I expect that to stay about the same.

Last season we were ranked 10th in passing yards allowed, I expect that to get significantly worse.

Last season we were ranked 3rd in passer rating against us, I expect that to get significantly worse.

Last season we were ranked 7th in YPA allowed, I expect that to get significantly worse.

Last season we were ranked 1st in completion % allowed, I expect that to get significantly worse.

Last season we were ranked 2nd in sacks and INTs, I expect both of those to get significantly worse.

Last season we were ranked 10th in total yards allowed, I expect that to get significantly worse.


Throughout his career he's [Kyle Orton] never put up TDs matching his yardage outputs. I guess that's why teams parted ways, completion percentate, yards, and ypa weren't enough for them without the points.

notacon's right on one point, Orton's the worst in the red zone. That's not a good thing to fail on.


I do think we'll have to play somewhat above ourselves to beat Cleveland this weekend though.


The facts are that against the Jets we've averaged 40.5 ppg and against the rest of the schedule we've averaged 17.4 ppg. That's not a good indicator overall.

The Jets in fact have the second worst point-differential in the entire league ahead of only Jax, hardly impressive. This may be the worst Jets team since '96 when Reich was their QB.

You say that the D is scary, well it wasn't scary against the Pats, Chargers, Houston or Miami two weeks ago.

I'm going to lay this out there, that the D is overrated and only ranked where it is because we've only played one above average offense all season, the Pats, and that was anything but even an average defensive performance with LaFell and Tyms doing their damage.

Here are the present rankings of the offenses that we've faced so far this season:

Yardage: 7th (L), 16th (W), 17th (split - Miami), 18th (L), 20th (L), 21st (W), 23rd (L), 29th (2 W's - Jets), 30th (W)

Scoring: 1st (L), 10th (split - Miami), 13th (L), 15th (L), 16th (L), 20th (W), 27th (W), 28th (W), 30th (2 L's - Jets)

In short, we haven't beat a single team ranked better than 20th in scoring offense or ranked better than 16th in yardage offense, after that one better than 21st in yardage offense.

Couldn't it be that we've simply gotten a good draw of the schedule in terms of been handed the worse offensive teams in the league to play, which clearly impacts our stats?

That's just going back a few pages. For you to swing from that to "There's no reason why we shouldn't be 11-5" is just naked trolling, Fletch.

[Night Train]

Everyone is focusing on how many wins/losses in the last 4... but what "it" requires to change/retain is whatever the Pegula's decide or if an outside consultant is actually brought in to advise.

[swiper]

10-6 would be the Mendoza line for me. They would have to beat two damn good teams to get there.

I don't think they will.

That said, I also think Whaley and Marrone, despite being the very definition of mediocrity, will get to stay anyway.


LOL. That's a very high Mendoza Line.

[swiper]

No one expected this team to go more than 7-9 realistically. Right now it looks like they are going to go 8 - 8. It would be a real special year if they stole one of the Bronco, Packer or Patriot games and ended up 9-7. I suspect 8 - 8 and we can all go off and have the best holiday season we've had in 15 years looking toward 2015.

[YardRat]

If they do manage to upset GB, Denver or NE, it's a lock, regardless of final record and the result of the Oakland game.

[TacklingDummy]

If they do manage to upset GB, Denver or NE, it's a lock, regardless of final record and the result of the Oakland game.
So if we beat NE in a meaningless game for them and lose to the rest they should all stay?

[Historian]

They're staying...it's already a done deal.

This team is a work in progress, and progress has been made each year.

[Forward_Lateral]

I think Marrone has earned another year, unless something incredibly stupid happens.

[Homegrown]

I think Marrone has earned another year, unless something incredibly stupid happens.

Is losing to Oakland incredibly stupid?

[alohabillsfan]

Whaley gets no credit for having the NUMBER 2 defense in the NFL? This team is playing competative football in December, no matter what mistakes he may have made, he has made this team better and needs to stay. Marrone, eh...

[JohnnyGold]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way and more from a media perspective than from a managerial perspective.

There's no reason why we shouldn't be 11-5 this season, maybe better.

Draft Wilson in the 3rd a couple of years ago or get Alex Smith and QB problem solved. The rest falls into place after that with good management.

Assuming we beat the Raiders, 8-8 is meaningless unless we improve on that next year. Who thinks that's going to happen right now? No 1st, no QBs available in free agency, who knows who leaves this offseason.

We're where we have been since 2010 because of Whaley.

Otherwise WagonCircler just summed it up.

I think next year, the Buffalo Bills will very likely be one of the top 2 seeds in the conference, and a legitimate contender to win the Super Bowl.

Our schedule is going to be incredibly easy, it's hard to imagine a game we won't be favored in, aside from the typical divisional slogs that every team has to play:
ne/@ ne
mia/ @ mia
nyj / @ nyj
we went 3-3 in the division last year, at worst 3-3 this year (4-2 still in play). No reason to think we won't go at least 3-3 next year, if not 4-2 or even 5-1. New England is bound to fall off eventually, Brady will be what? 52?
@ philly
@ washington
nyg
dal
the philly game looks like the only trouble in that grouping of games.
@ jax
@ ten
houston
indy
the indy game looks like the only trouble there, hopefully it's late in the season.
and then either: sd or kc
and one of: bal/cin/pit/cle

Probably the easiest schedule the Bills have had since 2004 when we went 9-7.

Not to mention our first trip through free agency with an owner other than Ralph Wilson, the return of a healthy CJ Spiller, (hopefully) a new offensive coordinator, Kiko will be back, the addition of a few draft picks, and the cream of the conference (DEN, NE) both being a year older, and 2 qbs in their 40s leading them?

Next year is going to be the best Bills season in ages, I'm already excited for it.

[Novacane]

It depends on how they look the last 4 games. If they beat Oakland and get blown out the other 3 games I'd fire Marone. If they play 3 close games and lose again because the O can't get it done I may let Marone stay if he fires Hackett. If he won't he'd be gone for sure.

I'm keeping Whaley regardless. He's brought in a lot of talent. EJ was his one big mistake but getting Kiko with the trade down makes up for some of that. To judge him on the Watkins trade after 1 year is short sighted IMO. If there was a can't miss QB in this years draft I'd be more critical of that move but there's not.

[Novacane]

I think next year, the Buffalo Bills will very likely be one of the top 2 seeds in the conference, and a legitimate contender to win the Super Bowl.

Our schedule is going to be incredibly easy, it's hard to imagine a game we won't be favored in, aside from the typical divisional slogs that every team has to play:
ne/@ ne
mia/ @ mia
nyj / @ nyj
we went 3-3 in the division last year, at worst 3-3 this year (4-2 still in play). No reason to think we won't go at least 3-3 next year, if not 4-2 or even 5-1. New England is bound to fall off eventually, Brady will be what? 52?
@ philly
@ washington
nyg
dal
the philly game looks like the only trouble in that grouping of games.
@ jax
@ ten
houston
indy
the indy game looks like the only trouble there, hopefully it's late in the season.
and then either: sd or kc
and one of: bal/cin/pit/cle

Probably the easiest schedule the Bills have had since 2004 when we went 9-7.

Not to mention our first trip through free agency with an owner other than Ralph Wilson, the return of a healthy CJ Spiller, (hopefully) a new offensive coordinator, Kiko will be back, the addition of a few draft picks, and the cream of the conference (DEN, NE) both being a year older, and 2 qbs in their 40s leading them?

Next year is going to be the best Bills season in ages, I'm already excited for it.




No offense but that's coming from the heart not the head. Orton and EJ are our QB's.

[jamze132]

Whaley and Morrone aren't the true problems. We need to find a more capable OC who can utilize our players properly. We need a big boost in the offseason from the O line and RBs.

[better days]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way and more from a media perspective than from a managerial perspective.

There's no reason why we shouldn't be 11-5 this season, maybe better.

Draft Wilson in the 3rd a couple of years ago or get Alex Smith and QB problem solved. The rest falls into place after that with good management.

Assuming we beat the Raiders, 8-8 is meaningless unless we improve on that next year. Who thinks that's going to happen right now? No 1st, no QBs available in free agency, who knows who leaves this offseason.

We're where we have been since 2010 because of Whaley.

Otherwise WagonCircler just summed it up.

Well, a number of QB's should be available in FA next year.

Questionable how good they are though.

But it is also questionable how good the QB's drafted will be as well.

[WagonCircler]

LOL. That's a very high Mendoza Line.

True, but if we start from today, it's 1-3, or .250...

[JohnnyGold]

No offense but that's coming from the heart not the head. Orton and EJ are our QB's.

None taken.

The AFC barely scares me this year... as tough as our December schedule is, we're only 2 games back from the top seed in the conference at this point, and that's with a roster that has been constructed by a GM handcuffed by "money ball" rules and those aforementioned, sub-par quarter backs.

I like the chances of EJ improving, and entering camp in an open competition and winning the job. Flesh out the offensive line, perhaps sign a more capable tight end, #3 wideout, and a corner to rotate in with Leodis, and the pieces are in place for a good run. Adrian Peterson or Ray Rice coming here would be icing on the cake, and that's if Spiller doesn't resign.

Get an OC who doesn't run out of shotgun on 3rd and 1, and with that schedule I posted, I don't see why it's so crazy to think the Bills couldnt go 12-4, 13-3 next season and get a first round bye.

If that were to happen, I would furthermore like our chances at home against the rest of the conference, with a team like Cincy, KC, or Mia coming here in the divisional round.

I know it's "crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy" to talk like this as a Bills fan, but elite defenses in cold weather cities with easy schedules typically do alright--see the Patriots first 3 super bowls. Contrary to popular opinion, Brady was a "game manager" then, and those defenses carried the day.

[elroy16]

They're staying...it's already a done deal.

This team is a work in progress, and progress has been made each year.


This.


The FO needs to resign Hughes, add 2 FA guards, two more in the draft, a FA QB, another in the draft, a TE, and any other depth they can.


Coaches, like players, can get better over time. This is only Hackett's second year calling plays in the NFL. Give him the offseason to tweak the playbook and hopefully come up with some better game plans. A better line and/or better QB play and this team is in one of the playoff spots.


This is obviously the best team they've had in a while. There's no question the offense has underachieved, but they also have had inconsistent QB and O-line play, the two most important facets of an offense. It's clear what the FO needs to address in the offseason, assuming they do what they need to do, next season is the make or break year for the coaching staff.

[Meathead]

Brady was a "game manager" then, and those defenses carried the day.

the cheating didnt hurt either

[Fletch]

They're staying...it's already a done deal.

This team is a work in progress, and progress has been made each year.

Progress is relative don't forget. The question is whether enough progress has been made. I've been thinking about this lately, but if signficant progress is being made, then there should be absolutely no excuse for not hitting 10 wins next season. I just don't see that. Our D is what carried us this season and it was because we largely faced a schedule full of teams laden with offensive issues. Even if we get a similar schedule next season, the odds of us winning 10 games with our offense is slim to nil and we have no resources, nothing even average, to be able to improve our team. At this point I think that our chances of regressing next season back to 6-10 or 7-9, assuming we better that this season, is greater than our having a winning season. Especially if Watkins continues to have injury issues and underachieves.

Some will talk about improving anyway, but the whole league can improve and the other teams all have a 1st-rounder, Cleveland two, so they'll improve too.

Hanging onto Whaley is a huge error in judgement for Pegula at this point. Still, I agree that the organization sees it that way that you said. It's unfortunate though because it's exactly that kind of lack of judgement that has kept us where we are. Miniscule and questionable signs of improvement while dismissing and ignoring where we should have and could have been with better and more competent people in charge.



So if we beat NE in a meaningless game for them and lose to the rest they should all stay?

I think we're going to see a significant swing of opinion here between now and December 28th.

[trapezeus]

i think if i'm making this decision as of week 13, i need to see the bills really compete for marrone to keep his job. i need to see him not be so overly reliant on the defense. can they get the ball, drive and score a TD and then let the d stymy the other team? They only did that once in the KC game, and still imploded with a 4th quarter lead. that typically gets put on coaching. this whole process of the d fighting and getting turnovers and touchdowns to be complimented with maybe 1 TD or 3 or 4 field goals depending on the field position provided is not inspiring. It is telling of how bad the o really is.

The O isn't dramatically different from last year. perhaps it's worse. i don't even know what stat i'd want to look at to confirm. but for 2 years, the offenses hasn't been materially different, and that's the big issue for me. Especially when you consider that the GM tried bringing in new talent for receiveres, new OL, new QB, and nothing. it's exactly the same. it is very hard to believe a GM can miss on almost every player at every position on one side of the ball and be pretty good on the other. it points to coaching.

The Bills O has talent there. it's not elite talent across the spectrum, but they should not be struggling like this in week 12 home games. if the Bills d didn't get that touchdown, jonny football's touchdown would have made it 10-7 and could have totally changed the tone of the game.

If the bills really play these 4 games like playoff games and go 2-2 or better and the offense is actually in the games, then i'd be fine rolling the dice one more year. if it stays the same, i'm ready for a coaching change. i'd be fine with whaley staying, but i really would like to see russ brandon relieved of all duties.

[psubills62]

They're both keeping their jobs. The only way it would be under consideration to fire Marrone, IMO, is if we lose the next four games with 3-4 blowouts.

[Historian]

Progress is relative don't forget. The question is whether enough progress has been made.

Good point, but think of it in these terms: (It's how I look at the situation)

If we weren't in the thick of a 14 year playoff drought, would this "rebuilding" be less desperate?

For example, say we made the playoffs in 04 MM, and 07 under DJ. Would we be as quick to dismiss this progress as not enough? Not fast enough?

See, I kind of feel (JMO) that the current administration has the last 14 years hanging around their necks, as opposed to the just the last two.

I think that each Coach and staff deserve to be held accountable for their own term, not everyone else's for the last 14 years.

We are all so starved for a winning program, sometimes I think we forget that.

Personally, I'm sick of the coaching carosel. I crave some stability for a change.

The only wild card, is that for the first time in any of our lifetimes, we can say we have a new owner.

I guess it's really up to him.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I'm not confident a lot of people around here know what the word "hypothetical" means.

Good discussion for the most part, it has been very interesting to read.

The more I think about it, 9-7 they keep their jobs. That is 50% more wins than last year despite a pretty difficult schedule.

8-8 maybe, but they better show up to those other 3 games in a big way.

I don't see why anyone's job should be safe if we lose out. You guys saying their jobs should already be secure are crazy sauce.

[better days]

Good point, but think of it in these terms: (It's how I look at the situation)

If we weren't in the thick of a 14 year playoff drought, would this "rebuilding" be less desperate?

For example, say we made the playoffs in 04 MM, and 07 under DJ. Would we be as quick to dismiss this progress as not enough? Not fast enough?

See, I kind of feel (JMO) that the current administration has the last 14 years hanging around their necks, as opposed to the just the last two.

I think that each Coach and staff deserve to be held accountable for their own term, not everyone else's for the last 14 years.

We are all so starved for a winning program, sometimes I think we forget that.

Personally, I'm sick of the coaching carosel. I crave some stability for a change.

The only wild card, is that for the first time in any of our lifetimes, we can say we have a new owner.

I guess it's really up to him.

Yeah, it is true & I am as guilty as anyone of that.

But many people blame Whaley for the last 14 years as well.

EJ may not pan out & he may have over paid for Sammy, but Whaley has made a lot of good moves since he came to the Bills

[kingJofNYC]

Alex Smith would not fix our QB troubles, that **** is laughable.

Edit: This is what the Niners got for Alex Smith: Tank Carradine, Corey Lemonier, Chris Borland, Carlos Hyde, and Stevie Johnson. Alex Smith's numbers when his team is trailing are pretty ****ing awful. Guy can't play from behind, they hide behind a great RB and an above average D unit.

[justasportsfan]

What would it require for Marrone/Whaley to keep their jobs?

Have pics of Terry Pegula wearing a thong ? :idunno:

[The Beef]

This would seem to imply that desire is the problem. Like, wanting it more or working harder would somehow make awful, season-killing decisions, turn into wisdom, or at least good judgement and shrewd deal making.

Desire isn't the problem. Well, at least not in the way it's presented here. It is a problem in that Whaley was so eager to make a name for himself that he made a sucker's play to move up and get Watkins. Even if Sammy goes to multiple Pro Bowls, which he very well may, it doesn't even come close to making up for the damage that Whaley did in overspending for him in the absence of a QB--a situation which Whaley played a large part in creating in the first place.

Whaley chose to gamble with his Dad's money, and he lost. He chose to make a big splash, rather than sound, smart, long term strategy. He made a "look at me!" deal. And he failed.

That's not to say that he hasn't done good things. He certainly has. But it's not enough.

FINALLY this franchise is in a position to pay serious money on a serious management/coaching staff. I could see Terry poaching some exec away from a cushy situation by paying him double the going rate. For once, after 50+ years of Ralph paying peanuts to coaches and GMs, I want to see that happen.

The Bills are in a position to compete financially with any team in the NFL, in an area of the game with no salary cap. You can't tell me that, if money were no object, the go-to pick would be Doug Whaley. That's just ridiculous.

Whaley gambles Russ Brandon's money, which was an odd spot to be in. It doesn't make the Watkins call any better, but in a vacuum I understand the thought process.

To the credit of Whaley/Nix they made a wise move in picking up the 2nd rounder when trading down for EJ.

I think if anything Whaley has an eye for physical productive defensive players, and that is certainly a product of his time spent in Pittsburgh.

I think the accumulation of talent has been enough to earn Whaley one more year. That likely comes as a package deal with Marrone, but I think it's highly likely Hackett gets canned. Pegula definitely has the capital to spend, OC would be a wise spot to look after this season.

[The Jokeman]

Progress is relative don't forget. The question is whether enough progress has been made. I've been thinking about this lately, but if signficant progress is being made, then there should be absolutely no excuse for not hitting 10 wins next season. I just don't see that. Our D is what carried us this season and it was because we largely faced a schedule full of teams laden with offensive issues. Even if we get a similar schedule next season, the odds of us winning 10 games with our offense is slim to nil and we have no resources, nothing even average, to be able to improve our team. At this point I think that our chances of regressing next season back to 6-10 or 7-9, assuming we better that this season, is greater than our having a winning season. Especially if Watkins continues to have injury issues and underachieves.

Some will talk about improving anyway, but the whole league can improve and the other teams all have a 1st-rounder, Cleveland two, so they'll improve too.

Hanging onto Whaley is a huge error in judgement for Pegula at this point. Still, I agree that the organization sees it that way that you said. It's unfortunate though because it's exactly that kind of lack of judgement that has kept us where we are. Miniscule and questionable signs of improvement while dismissing and ignoring where we should have and could have been with better and more competent people in charge.




I think we're going to see a significant swing of opinion here between now and December 28th.

Let's not forget Whaley also drafted Preston Brown in Round 3 and Sentrell Henderson in Round 7 this past year and the year before that Alonso and Robert Woods in Round 2 the year before that. The draft doesn't end after Round 1.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I posted this so we could revisit it at the end of the season.

9-7 was my gray area. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch about beating the Pats in NE when Brady doesn't play half the game.

I think OC goes, Marrone/Whaley stay. But, I'm giving them a directive that their only priorities are to keep the D together as much as possible, make the QB position better and beef up the O Line.

I would wait for them to offer their "recommendations" for next season and if they even hinted that we should stay the course at QB I would fire them as soon as they walk out of the office.

We are on the cusp of having a superb team, making the margin of error even thinner. Time to make a push.

[psubills62]

9-7 is not a gray area. They stay.

[stuckincincy]

9-7 is not a gray area. They stay.

Sellout games fall from the heavens. They stay.

[Historian]

All good points.

[Forward_Lateral]

The last time the team finished 9-7, they forced Mularkey out, and sucked for the next 10 years. That team was on the cusp as well. I hope they learn from the past stupid mistakes the organization has made and keep everything and everyone in place. Upgrade the Oline, fill in a few pieces on D that leave (assuming some do). Don't forget, barring off season injuries, Kiko will be back next year. The Defense will be that much better. Better than this year.

Fixing the O-line should be the number 1 priority. Not QB. Oline. This team can win with an avg QB. We've seen it this year. Unless some franchise qb falls from the sky and into Buffalo's lap, I think it's wishful thinking to assume there's going to be a better option at QB next season.

[BuffaloRedleg]

All good points.

"9-7 is not a gray area" is not backed up by any explanation for why that is the case, so I'd hardly call that a good point.

I guess I'm just not willing to give the staff a free pass for a season where we missed the playoffs. There should at least be a discussion about it.

Other organizations hold their staffs to that level of accountability, why shouldn't we?

[Night Train]

We won a pre-season game yesterday against a team resting starters, lost games against Houston, KC & Oakland we EASILY should have won and lucked out against Detroit ( kicker ) and Minny ( played terrible, winning with 1 second left ).

These guys went out and scored 7 or fewer 2nd half points in half their games. ( What half time adjustments ? )

D is top 5 and O is bottom 5 with no QB play showing in the future. I see more of the same with this crew running the show.

Don't just wave the 9-7 sign wearing blinders. 6-9 wins next year with the same staff. That's progress ?

[Forward_Lateral]

We won a pre-season game yesterday against a team resting starters, lost games against Houston, KC & Oakland we EASILY should have won and lucked out against Detroit ( kicker ) and Minny ( played terrible, winning with 1 second left ).

These guys went out and scored 7 or fewer 2nd half points in half their games. ( What half time adjustments ? )

D is top 5 and O is bottom 5 with no QB play showing in the future. I see more of the same with this crew running the show.

Don't just wave the 9-7 sign wearing blinders. 6-9 wins next year with the same staff. That's progress ?

Last time I checked, Sunday's win counted. It was regular season, regardless of who played.

I'm glad you can predict the future, too. Maybe let me know what lottery numbers are going to win next week.

Do you think any reputable coach is going to want to come to Buffalo after a coach that won 9 games got fired? Hell no.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Last time I checked, Sunday's win counted. It was regular season, regardless of who played.

I'm glad you can predict the future, too. Maybe let me know what lottery numbers are going to win next week.

Do you think any reputable coach is going to want to come to Buffalo after a coach that won 9 games got fired? Hell no.

IMO a new owner gets a one time pass to clean house of the coaches/GMs he did not hire, and I doubt the league would hold it against him. That said, I would think there are no changes this year.

[psubills62]

"9-7 is not a gray area" is not backed up by any explanation for why that is the case, so I'd hardly call that a good point.

I guess I'm just not willing to give the staff a free pass for a season where we missed the playoffs. There should at least be a discussion about it.

Other organizations hold their staffs to that level of accountability, why shouldn't we?
How many coaches has it taken just to get to this point? I still find it unreal how Jauron and Gailey earned 3rd years but somehow because Marrone got us close but not in, he doesn't deserve a 3rd year? People may not want to admit it, but turning Buffalo around and getting legit DC's or former HC's to join the staff has been beyond difficult.

So let's think about Marrone being fired. He goes from 6-10 to 9-7 and then gets fired after two years? Sure, sounds great to Bills fans for whatever reason, but now what coach is actually going to want to come to Buffalo, pray tell, where progress is rewarded with firing if you don't reach the playoffs after two years? You're going to end up with a lot more 4th tier previously failed head coaches that have little to no respect in the NFL community.

I don't believe Marrone is a future SB winning HC. But what has he done to not deserve a third year? Nobody has a free pass, that's why you re-evaluate after next year with the entirety of his tenure in mind.

Gailey got 10 wins in two seasons and gets a third year. Marrone gets 9 in year 2 alone but doesn't deserve a third year. Buffalo fan logic.