Bills: Offensive Troubles

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  • Ingtar33
    Dances With Buffaloes
    • Sep 2002
    • 15475

    Bills: Offensive Troubles

    Its been a long time since the team has been good enough to inspire me to start a thread about ~anything~ this team does. But I keep coming back to the offense and it's issues over and over again in my head. I'm not going to go too deeply into the passing scheme this team runs, mostly because i don't know a lot about how Marrone has the passing attack set up. That and i've not seen a lot from the passing attack I don't see elsewhere. What really has caught my eye is the Running game and the coaching of that running game

    The Running Game:

    Generally there are two schools of thought in modern football about the running attack. The traditional school of thought is to run to set up the pass. People say this a lot, but sometimes i get the feeling they don't know what it means. What this means is by running, or the threat of you running either by formation, personnel, or play action, you cause the defense to "cheat" toward defending a run, and open up options in the passing game. Notice, i don't speak about successfully running, or running a certain amount of time. I'm simply speaking about doing enough in your running game to open up the defense to allow easy completions and gains in the passing attack. That is running to set up the pass. Passing to set up the run is the opposite. It's doing enough in your passing game that you, either by formation, personnel or even down and distance open up plays in your running game for easy yards. Chan Gailey passed to set up the run, and as a result we were a top 10 rushing attack every year he was here. We certainly weren't a run first team, nor were we a power running team, but he had a brilliant feel for when to take advantage of a defense with a surprise rushing play. Both methods work only if the coaching staff and quarterback can take advantage of looks in the defense, and this is where we are failing right now.

    Currently the buffalo bills do not pass to set up the run, nor do they run to set up the pass. They don't have enough dedication to either pass or run to set each other up, they don't pass or run well enough to cause this type of adjustment by a defense.

    It looks to me like since CJ and FJ went down with injury we're being coached to pass to set up the run (prior to thier injuries we certainly were a run to set up the pass offense). at least that's what the play calling looks like to me. we don't run a lot of play action, nor do we do we show any real dedication to the running game even when it's working. The amusing thing is, in the early part of the season, we were getting the advantages of a run to set up the pass look, due to the coaching staff's reluctance to expose EJ. When Orton came in he took advantage of all the openings opposing defenses gave him due to that "run to set up the pass" mindset. However, after CJ and FJ went down teams abandoned all pretense of defending the run against us, and the offense came apart.

    Now it looks like i'm defending the playcalling a bit, I am not. because even before CJ and FJ went down, the playcalling was questionable, and likely far less effective then it could have been. I'll discuss the theory here

    Run to set up the pass: playcalling primer

    in order to properly set up a defense you must show dedication to running the ball.
    -This means in 3rd and short you better call running plays at least half or more of the time.
    -this means on 2nd and long you run the ball to make it a 3rd and manageable
    -this means you follow up a good run with another run regardless of situation
    -this means if the defense can't stop your running back from gaining 4 yards a pop, you keep feeding him until they do
    -this means in 4 down territory you RUN on 3rd down
    -this means in short yardage you run INSIDE the tackles, not outside, not pass

    in order to take advantage of what you've done to the defense you need to
    -call play action on first down inside the red zone
    -call play action on 3rd down and short 1/2 the time
    -only call a straight up pass in obvious passing downs (3rd and long), and have a draw play audible available to your QB even in that situation (no empty backfield)
    -pass after play action against 8 men fronts

    this is all "high percentage" football. it's offensive coaching 101, you see this type of by the book unimaginative play calling at EVERY level of football. It's common because it works... eventually... over time. You won't surprise the dumbest player on the opposing defense with this type of play calling. They all know what to expect. Which is why its so important to SHOW them what they expect. running to set up the pass requires dedication to boring, by the book, paint by numbers coaching. It works better, the better you run the ball. BUT it STILL can work pretty well even if you don't run well. The patriots pulled this number on us in the first game against us in their halftime adjustments. They never really ran the ball effectively against us that game, but they ran enough they made their play action work on the linebackers, which then gave brady all the room he needed to find open guys behind them. You don't need to run well to make it work, you just need to dedicate yourself to it. The bills sorta did this when EJ was playing under center, and they sorta did it when Orton came in up until FJ and CJ got hurt, that said this coaching staff has "tells" in it's playcalling that are fatal to being truely effective at running to set up the pass. One such is their complete unwillingness to run on 3rd and 2-4. if you won't run on 3rd and short, you'll never convince a team you're dedicated to running the ball. and the bills simply don't run on 3rd and 2-4yards

    Passing to set up the run: playcalling primer

    -this type of offense typically uses playaction just to hold up the passrush, there is no threat of an actual run to scare the linebackers. It also uses playaction to "detect" when defenses are no longer respecting the run
    -pass in obvious running situations
    -run to slow up the passrush (again, situational)
    -run to take advantage of man defense and blitzes
    -run to take advantage of pass defense personnel (dime coverages)

    generally it's a situational and personnel driven play call. This requires a passing game that's dangerous enough that defenses respect it via personal or scheme. often times these are designed audibles that are made at the line of scrimmage. That said, it usually takes a little more "feel" for the "flow" of the game and personnel to call this type of running play. I gave credit to chan galley earlier, because he literally was a master of passing to set up the run. He got defenses into some horrible situations and then popped a run with CJ or FJ that would look childishly simple. The main downside to this type of running attack is it can't be depended on to run out the clock at the end of a football game, as it's the rare pass first team that has a good enough mauling type offensive line to run the ball when it's expected. Still there are plenty of teams in the league that would qualify as a pass first type of team... the Packers and Broncos definitely would be a couple of them. The Bills have been operating as a true "pass first" team since CJ and FJ got hurt. Unfortunately, it's not working. For one, we don't run well enough when we do run to make teams who sell out against our passing attack suffer for it. secondly, teams are playing a lot more deep zone defense against us then they used to, and unfortunately, it's pulled all the electricity out of the passing game for reasons i'll outline next

    The Passing Attack

    I said at the beginning i wouldn't get too much into the problems in our passing game because i wasn't familiar enough with the system we're running. However i'll point out some issues i've noticed.

    -No separation: we have a group of wide receivers who don't get open fast, and when they do get open they don't get a whole lot of separation. Watkins mostly because he doesn't run sharp routs, Woods and Hogan simply aren't that fast.
    -Poor timing: the biggest error i've seen from orton is his atrocious timing with the WR corps. Sometimes it doesn't matter all that much, particularly against a bad defense, but it REALLY matters against a good defense. He simply doesn't get the ball out of his hand on time, often double clutching, because he doesn't trust throwing the ball at a WR who's not looking at him. I suspect this is mostly due to the late arrival to the team, but it's a clear problem that hasn't improved as the season goes on. He has the least trust in Watkins and Chandler, i've noticed he hesitates the least with Hogan... likely because hogan was so deep in the depth chart at the start of the year he was the main WR he worked with in practice.
    -poor blitz pickups: this is both the o-line's fault and a result of the injuries at RB, this has to be the worse season i've seen e.woods have in the nfl. The line has looked better since Ubrick and Pears became starters at guard, but it's still a work in progress.
    -bad rout running - this is likely the other source of Orton's hesitation. the WRs in general, watkins especially seem to be running the wrong routs REGULARLY. it has cost orton a few interceptions and intentional grounding penalties... including an intentional grounding/safety, where Watkins was supposed to run a 10 yard out, and turned it into a 15 yard out... causing orton to be called for intentional grounding when he threw it early. Had watkins run the rout as called, he would have been close enough there would have been no penalty. There have been other situations similar to this caused by all of the wide receivers at some point in time.

    Conclusion:

    Many of the problems plaguing the Bills offense are COACHING and EXPERIENCE problems. Rookies will be rookies, so i am not concerned about Watkins' lack of timing with Orton, or him running the wrong or a poor rout. Woods and Hogan are both young as well, and this is only the 2nd year in the offense for both. They don't make the same mistakes Watkins does for the most part so i consider that just part of the growing pains with a young receiving corps. The QB is very new to the team by NFL standards, so his lack of timing with the WRs is to be expected, as is his lack of trust. the biggest personnel issues would be the lack of a dependable threat at Tight End, the sorry shape of the inside of the line... and the questionable play calling of the coaching staff.
    Last edited by Ingtar33; 12-02-2014, 03:20 PM.
    My wife told me that if I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, girls would find me VERY attractive.

    MY WIFE SAID THAT!!!
  • SpikedLemonade
    • Jun 2024

    #2
    Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

    I think we have all have seen enough of Hackett.

    He simply wasn't and isn't qualified for the job at this stage in his career.

    Assuming Marrone is back and I think he will be, he must be pressured to replace Hackett.

    Otherwise, we will be looking at a 6-10 to 8-8 record once again.

    Comment

    • justasportsfan
      Registered User
      • Jul 2002
      • 71601

      #3
      Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

      we have coaches who do not know how to get player to perform on O.

      Maybe, Hackett knows his X's and O's , I don't know but it doesn't stop there.
      You need to have coaches who know how to bring out the best in players and make them perform.

      Patriots/BB doesn't care who his OC/DC are. He just knows how to get his players to do what he wants them to do.

      It also helps he gets the refs to do what he wants them to do.
      sacrifice1
      https://theinterviewwithgod.com/video/

      Comment

      • Ingtar33
        Dances With Buffaloes
        • Sep 2002
        • 15475

        #4
        Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

        Originally posted by justasportsfan View Post
        we have coaches who do not know how to get player to perform on O.

        Maybe, Hackett knows his X's and O's , I don't know but it doesn't stop there.
        You need to have coaches who know how to bring out the best in players and make them perform.

        Patriots/BB doesn't care who his OC/DC are. He just knows how to get his players to do what he wants them to do.

        It also helps he gets the refs to do what he wants them to do.
        I agree. The poor rout running is 90% the coaches fault. If they can't teach the offense to the players that's on them.

        -There was a play last week against cleveland that stuck in my head. Watkins ran what looked like was going to be a deep post, and BURNED Joe Hayden badly. there was zero coverage in the middle of the field, there was NO reason for watkins to change the rout, he had 20 yards of real estate to run in with no one in front of him, Orton saw him, and set up to throw, and watkins for reasons i still don't understand changed the rout and started running straight up field like it was supposed to be a post-corner rout. (the oddest and sloppiest post-corner i've ever seen), which allowed Hayden to get back into position, AND ran the pass right back into the safety playing the deep 2. Orton still threw the ball (maybe it was supposed to be a post-corner?) and slightly overthrew watkins on the play, but even if the ball was on target he probably wouldn't have caught it, as both Hayden and the safety were all over him. Had he kept running inside on a post, that would have been a simple 40 yard completion. On the replay orton clearly double clutched when watkins started to cut back outside. I'm not sure who to put that play on. Was it watkins for running the horribly sloppy post-corner? was it watkins for changing the rout from an open post to a covered post-corner? Was it the coaching staff for not giving the WR and QB the flexability to change the rout mid play (most coaching staffs would coach watkins to keep on the post even if it's a called post corner, due to how open it was) was it the coaching staff for coaching watkins to run a terrible freaking ugly post-corner (easily one of the most ugly post-corners i've seen), or was it orton for throwing the covered post-corner (even though watkins was open when he looked at him, by the time the rout turned into a post-corner and he threw it, it wasn't even close to open anymore).

        Who do you blame? I'm not even sure. i just know a LOT of wrong happened on that play, where as a well coached team with a vet WR/QB combo of average talent would have gained 40 yards on that play, a bunch of things went wrong and we had an incomplete on 3rd down to show for it.
        My wife told me that if I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, girls would find me VERY attractive.

        MY WIFE SAID THAT!!!

        Comment

        • IlluminatusUIUC
          Registered User
          • Sep 2012
          • 8966

          #5
          Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

          Looking back at the early games of the season, the ones where you'd most expect to see the coaches' intended gameplan coming through, it seems like Marrone and Hackett want to run a Chip Kelly lite horizontal spread system. It seems to be less about moving the LBs and Safeties forward and backward and more about moving them side to side. I can see what they were going for, you take an athletic QB, speedy halfbacks like Brown and Spiller, and the best screen game wideout in the draft and try to confuse the D about whether to pinch or spread. If they pinch, Manuel runs the read keeper or throws a smoke/bubble screen. If they spread, Manuel hands off up the middle. If/when they move up to take both those options away, then you bring out the vertical stretch component with Watkins/Goodwin now running deep routes. And all of this being done on a no huddle, quick snap basis to keep the defense on their heels.

          As a concept, I think its a decent one, especially for a young offense. If simplifies decision making, Manuel has very easy reads and because the offense moves quickly from snap to snap the defense is forced to declare itself quickly. I think it fell apart when Manuel wasn't able to hit basic NFL throws and his knee injuries made them gun shy about using his legs, but I can see why they went for what they did. OTOH, Orton is a completely different QB. He doesn't run (indeed he barely moves), so the defense has no QB running threat to key on. They can't use the read to pull LBs/DEs away any more. I think what we've seen over the last two months is Hackett scrambling to re-adjust a horizontal spread offense into a downfield passing game, and the resulting confusion that entails. The part that utterly baffles me is how he has been totally unable to get Mike Williams onto the field. I thought he would be one of the focal points of the offense, but he's been completely relegated to the bench and is almost certain to be cut after the year.


          Billszone 2013 Prediction Contest winner!

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          • Ingtar33
            Dances With Buffaloes
            • Sep 2002
            • 15475

            #6
            Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

            Originally posted by IlluminatusUIUC View Post
            Looking back at the early games of the season, the ones where you'd most expect to see the coaches' intended gameplan coming through, it seems like Marrone and Hackett want to run a Chip Kelly lite horizontal spread system. It seems to be less about moving the LBs and Safeties forward and backward and more about moving them side to side. I can see what they were going for, you take an athletic QB, speedy halfbacks like Brown and Spiller, and the best screen game wideout in the draft and try to confuse the D about whether to pinch or spread. If they pinch, Manuel runs the read keeper or throws a smoke/bubble screen. If they spread, Manuel hands off up the middle. If/when they move up to take both those options away, then you bring out the vertical stretch component with Watkins/Goodwin now running deep routes. And all of this being done on a no huddle, quick snap basis to keep the defense on their heels.

            As a concept, I think its a decent one, especially for a young offense. If simplifies decision making, Manuel has very easy reads and because the offense moves quickly from snap to snap the defense is forced to declare itself quickly. I think it fell apart when Manuel wasn't able to hit basic NFL throws and his knee injuries made them gun shy about using his legs, but I can see why they went for what they did. OTOH, Orton is a completely different QB. He doesn't run (indeed he barely moves), so the defense has no QB running threat to key on. They can't use the read to pull LBs/DEs away any more. I think what we've seen over the last two months is Hackett scrambling to re-adjust a horizontal spread offense into a downfield passing game, and the resulting confusion that entails. The part that utterly baffles me is how he has been totally unable to get Mike Williams onto the field. I thought he would be one of the focal points of the offense, but he's been completely relegated to the bench and is almost certain to be cut after the year.
            completely correct. It was also a run to set up the pass system... just as chip kelly's is. When Orton came in, they substituted CJ for "ej" and used him and watkins to stretch the field horizontally, and continued to run something resembling a run to set up the pass system. It worked mostly because teams couldn't ignore the game changing speed spiller and watkins have, and not many teams have players who can run with them. Once spiller went down defenses focused 100% on watkins, and when FJ went down (same game) the bills lost any real credibility as a running team. it completely unhinged the offense.

            But that doesn't excuse what i've seen since. It doesn't excuse the wrong routs being run by the WRs, it doesn't excuse the horrendous play calling, the lack of willingness to run even when it's working, the confoundingly bad timing on their bubble screens and outside runs, the bizarre lack of trick plays... you can't even defend them and say they're running a vanilla scheme. because they're not. they just aren't running any aspect of their offense sharply or accurately. it's painful to watch right now.
            My wife told me that if I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, girls would find me VERY attractive.

            MY WIFE SAID THAT!!!

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            • BidsJr
              Registered User
              • Sep 2002
              • 2858

              #7
              Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

              If Manning, Brady, Brees, Luck or Rodgers was QB we would be Super Bowl favorites.

              No OC's look good with bad QB's.

              Wait. Edited for maybe Chip Kelly.

              But I can't think of another.
              "Well I drink too much and get punched in the head by fighters for fun, so my memory isn't so great." -OpIv37

              Comment

              • YardRat
                Well, lookie here...
                • Dec 2004
                • 86296

                #8
                Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

                Part of the issue with the offense is, IMO, the coaching the offensive line is getting, especially when zone-blocking and particularly in Wood's case. Their actions immediately after the snap appear to be almost rudimentary (for lack of a better term), and there seems to be no effort whatsoever to adjust the player's reactions to their reads/keys and the opponents formations.
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                • trapezeus
                  Legendary Zoner
                  • Oct 2004
                  • 19525

                  #9
                  Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

                  i think you are right, ingtar. the issues are fairly repetitive. you are pointing them out and that is where the coaches need to fix these mistakes.

                  your summation on playcalling is what i've tried to explain but not as effectively. the playcalls tend to look like hackett is just picking randomly from his assortment of plays instead of strategically setting something up in the long run.

                  in the KC game, we stopped the run game most of the game, but reid stayed with it and new that eventually, he could abuse a defense that was overpursuing. and he got the 4th and 1 TD with a great playcall at the right time. the bills don't seem to have plays that didn't work and then have a nice wrinkle in it later to catch a team over reacting to a simply thing they've been stopped routinely.

                  maybe in college where the gap in talent between teams is higher, you can get away with simply calling in random plays and hoping for better execution. but in the nfl it seems like there needs to be a level of cerebral playcalling that takes advantage of small slip up.

                  Comment

                  • Ingtar33
                    Dances With Buffaloes
                    • Sep 2002
                    • 15475

                    #10
                    Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

                    Originally posted by trapezeus View Post
                    i think you are right, ingtar. the issues are fairly repetitive. you are pointing them out and that is where the coaches need to fix these mistakes.

                    your summation on play calling is what i've tried to explain but not as effectively. the play calls tend to look like hackett is just picking randomly from his assortment of plays instead of strategically setting something up in the long run.

                    in the KC game, we stopped the run game most of the game, but reid stayed with it and new that eventually, he could abuse a defense that was overpursuing. and he got the 4th and 1 TD with a great playcall at the right time. the bills don't seem to have plays that didn't work and then have a nice wrinkle in it later to catch a team over reacting to a simply thing they've been stopped routinely.

                    maybe in college where the gap in talent between teams is higher, you can get away with simply calling in random plays and hoping for better execution. but in the nfl it seems like there needs to be a level of cerebral playcalling that takes advantage of small slip up.
                    the playcalling gets under my skin when i'm watching them on sunday. There are times this offense can't buy a first down, they have zero momentum in the passing game, they hand off for the first time in 10 plays, it goes for 10 yards, and every fiber in my being is screaming "RUN IT AGAIN!" (of course they don't). It seems like a hundred times or more in my career i've started a failed offense or seen one start with the running game. just POUND THE ****** FOOTBALL! This coaching staff has no concept, even when they were running first with EJ, how to start and maintain a running attack.

                    Don't even get me started on the red zone issues.

                    And here is a simple solution to our short yardage problems. Tell your o-line (and team) you're going to run on every single 3rd and short. and if they don't get it, you'll run again on 4th and short regardless the position on the field. Tell them that you're telling the other coach this exact fact as well before the game. and tell them if we don't convert it's 100% on them. (and it is, running in short yardage is 95% mindset, 5% size/skill). tell the whole ****** team before the game, tel lthe other coach. tell the media, tell the refs, the pa announcer and fans. If you think i'm extreme about this i stole this idea from Bill Parcells. He actually did this the first year in new england. By week 8 of his first year there until he left his offenses were incredibly good in short yardage. They were money. It worked for Bill Parcells, it's worked for me as well. Shamed a few of my worst o-lines into fantastic units by the end of the year. It worked. It still works. It worked in the NFL before. But this coaching staff has no desire to run in short yardage, and it shows in the way the rest of the team plays.

                    There have been drives which were almost 100% rushing this year, we get inside the 20 and all of a sudden hackett and marrone are calling pass plays and we end up with a FG. That type of crap makes me want to pull my hair out. You just averaged 8 yards a carry, not a single rush has been stopped short of 5 yards, and you're throwing the ball? WHY?!!!! Keep pounding it until they stop you!

                    Man is it frustrating watching this offense.
                    My wife told me that if I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, girls would find me VERY attractive.

                    MY WIFE SAID THAT!!!

                    Comment

                    • justasportsfan
                      Registered User
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 71601

                      #11
                      Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

                      Originally posted by BidsJr View Post
                      If Manning, Brady, Brees, Luck or Rodgers was QB we would be Super Bowl favorites.

                      No OC's look good with bad QB's.

                      Wait. Edited for maybe Chip Kelly.

                      But I can't think of another.
                      I would agree to a certain degree but it goes both ways A great qb (Peyton)can make a coach look smarter than they are however a coach can make a talented player useless (Jauron- TO)when they don't coach them to succeed. How is it that both Spiller and Watkins were the most dynamic players in college and Marrone/Hackett doesn't know how to use them. Gailey knew how to make Spiller thrive with less talent surrounding Spiller.

                      IMo, Orton is better than FitZ but Hackett doesn't know how to set Orton to succeed but Gailey was able to make Fitz better than he really is that Fit got a huge contract.
                      Last edited by justasportsfan; 12-02-2014, 05:34 PM.
                      sacrifice1
                      https://theinterviewwithgod.com/video/

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                      • Swiper
                        Legendary Zoner
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 33105

                        #12
                        Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

                        We now know the alias of Buffalo Sports Fan.

                        Comment

                        • stuckincincy
                          Buffalo Bills Fan
                          • Sep 2003
                          • 15084

                          #13
                          Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

                          I recommended that they pick up FB John Conner 2 years ago.
                          Fiat justitia ruat caelum. Noli timere. Laus Deo.

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                          • Night Train
                            Retired - On Several Levels
                            • Jul 2005
                            • 33117

                            #14
                            Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

                            What happened to the OL in the last year ? Suddenly, they can't open any holes and the pass protection has broken down far more frequently. Guard play has been terrible.

                            That and the OC playcalling are my 2 biggest concerns in this upcoming off-season. I don't think Whaley/Marrone will be fired and if by chance Marrone was canned, they would probably promote Schwartz.

                            I believe Orton and Manuel are our 2 QB's at least until 2016, so we better improve in these other 2 areas if we wish to ever sniff the playoffs.
                            Anonymity is an abused privilege, abused most by people who mistake vitriol for wisdom and cynicism for wit

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                            • Ingtar33
                              Dances With Buffaloes
                              • Sep 2002
                              • 15475

                              #15
                              Re: Bills: Offensive Troubles

                              Originally posted by Night Train View Post
                              What happened to the OL in the last year ? Suddenly, they can't open any holes and the pass protection has broken down far more frequently. Guard play has been terrible.

                              That and the OC playcalling are my 2 biggest concerns in this upcoming off-season. I don't think Whaley/Marrone will be fired and if by chance Marrone was canned, they would probably promote Schwartz.

                              I believe Orton and Manuel are our 2 QB's at least until 2016, so we better improve in these other 2 areas if we wish to ever sniff the playoffs.
                              I don't think the o-line was ever all that good. i think Chan Gailey got a LOT more out of them then most coaches would. You could see the line regressing last year, this year was just a continuation of the trend. Marrone simply doesn't have a good line coach on his staff... and Gailey made due with smoke and mirrors. I have my issues with gailey but if you look at what he accomplished with the personnel he had available he really was getting a lot out of not much.
                              My wife told me that if I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, girls would find me VERY attractive.

                              MY WIFE SAID THAT!!!

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