I'm going to defend the Watkins trade now....

[HHURRICANE]

I read today that Clowney's career may be over. His knee may not actually get repaired to where he'll play or at any level of a first rounder.

This essentially makes Watkins the number 1 pick in the draft.

Now I know many will argue that it was deep WR class, etc., etc. but nobody's crystal ball is that good and it's rare that you get the first pick in any draft and they pan out. Bruce's Smith's first year he had 6.5 sacks and wasn't that spectacular. We know what happened after that.

Watkins is going to be great. A rookie receiver with a 1,000 yards is pretty impressive (hopefully he gets there) and with subpar QB play. Wait til next year.

The Bills have had many bad drafts but the last few have been very good. At least two thrids of the teams are still looking for a franchise QBs. I don't hate the trade up. Hopefully we'll get lucky with a QB in a later round or something will come our way.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I read today that Clowney's career may be over. His knee may not actually get repaired to where he'll play or at any level of a first rounder.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the Bills.



This essentially makes Watkins the number 1 pick in the draft.

How so? Bortles and Robinson don't count somehow?



Now I know many will argue that it was deep WR class, etc., etc. but nobody's crystal ball is that good and it's rare that you get the first pick in any draft and they pan out. Bruce's Smith's first year he had 6.5 sacks and wasn't that spectacular. We know what happened after that.

Watkins is going to be great. A rookie receiver with a 1,000 yards is pretty impressive (hopefully he gets there) and with subpar QB play. Wait til next year.

So you say that Bruce started slow, and that doesn't mean anything because he turned out good. Then you say that Watkins is going to be great because of his good start. So Watkins' start matters but Bruce's doesn't? Is this just to prove your argument? Couldn't you argue that his start might not be deterministic of his future?



The Bills have had many bad drafts but the last few have been very good. At least two thrids of the teams are still looking for a franchise QBs. I don't hate the trade up. Hopefully we'll get lucky with a QB in a later round or something will come our way.

I do hate the trade up. The Bills could be sitting here with Evans/Beckham/Benjamin AND Stevie Johnson AND an extra 4th and 1st rounder. Instead we have Sammy. It's impossible for the guy to live up to that trade, unless the Bills start winning consistently and people forget about it. If we keep missing the playoffs, that trade will be scrutinized heavily and with good reason.

[HHURRICANE]

Wow....that was a lot of analysis.

You took my assumptions and made assumptions.....

[OpIv37]

You do know that Bruce was 300 lbs his first year right?

One of the reasons he improved dramatically is because he lost almost 30 pounds during the off-season and committed himself to being in peak shape. After the first season he played at 270-275 and was only 5% body fat.

Watkins is already in great shape.

[HHURRICANE]

My comment was to say that we got a first round, first rate talent. What if we traded up to get Clowney?

Watkins is looking like a good pick even for what we gave up.

[The King]

Calvin Johnson didn't break 1,000 yards in his first year, Neither did Larry Fitzgerald.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Watkins is looking like a good pick even for what we gave up.

That is a very subjective statement and could easily be argued the other way.

I'm not denying Watkins being a good player, everything he's shown so far would indicate he's going to be very good. I just think his cost was too high.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Calvin Johnson didn't break 1,000 yards in his first year, Neither did Larry Fitzgerald.

Michael Clayton did.

[Pinkerton Security]

OK so moral of the story - Joe Fo Sho hates the Watkins trade. We get it. Shut up.

[Joe Fo Sho]

OK so moral of the story - Joe Fo Sho hates the Watkins trade. We get it. Shut up.

Don't make me sic Shamsky on your ass.

[The King]

Michael Clayton did.
http://content9.flixster.com/movie/11/16/39/11163967_det.jpg

[TacklingDummy]

I'm going to defend the Watkins trade now....

So you rather have Watkins and no 1st or 4th rounder next year over...

Having next years 1st and 4th rounder
And one of the following...

Mike Evans, WR
Jarvis Landry WR, Miami Dolphins
Kelvin Benjamin WR, Carolina Panthers
Odell Beckham Jr. New York Giants
Jordan Matthews WR, Philadelphia Eagles
Brandin Cooks WR, New Orleans Saints
Allen Robinson WR, Jacksonville Jaguars
Allen Hurns WR, Jacksonville Jaguars
John Brown WR, Arizona Cardinals
Martavis Bryant, Steelers

[Bill Cody]

It's impossible for the guy to live up to that trade, unless the Bills start winning consistently and people forget about it.

Maybe if you're a douche it is. 1st rounders bust all the time and the Bills are amazing at drafting busts. Can't we just be happy that for once we drafted a good player? Or are you telling me that if we had say the 20th pick in the draft next year we'd be a stone cold lock for the Bowl? Get serious.

[YardRat]

Get over it, it's done.

[HHURRICANE]

You do know that Bruce was 300 lbs his first year right?

One of the reasons he improved dramatically is because he lost almost 30 pounds during the off-season and committed himself to being in peak shape. After the first season he played at 270-275 and was only 5% body fat.

Watkins is already in great shape.

Op I'm 48. Yes I know the entire story. Bruce Smith and Jim Kelly have both been in my house.

[OpIv37]

Op I'm 48. Yes I know the entire story. Bruce Smith and Jim Kelly have both been in my house.

****in A, how'd you pull that off? I met Jim Kelly at his football camp in like '95 or '96. Still have the hat he signed and the pic on display in my basement. I even got in an argument with him over whether or not I sacked him playing touch football. Since it was Jim Kelly Football Camp and not OpIv37 Football Camp, he won that particular argument.

But Bruce is my all time favorite player. I have a 78 jersey that I got in 1992 and I'd love to get it autographed but I e never had a chance to meet him.

[HHURRICANE]

****in A, how'd you pull that off? I met Jim Kelly at his football camp in like '95 or '96. Still have the hat he signed and the pic on display in my basement. I even got in an argument with him over whether or not I sacked him playing touch football. Since it was Jim Kelly Football Camp and not OpIv37 Football Camp, he won that particular argument.

But Bruce is my all time favorite player. I have a 78 jersey that I got in 1992 and I'd love to get it autographed but I e never had a chance to meet him.

My ex-wife did some of the advertising for the Bills so pure luck. My favorite story is I have a ticket signed by Kelly, Thurman, and Bruce Smith. Than Greg Bell came over and signed it without me asking him. I was pissed. It's sitting in a box somewhere.

I have some cool Kelly stuff.

[HHURRICANE]

My ex-wife did some of the advertising for the Bills so pure luck. My favorite story is I have a ticket signed by Kelly, Thurman, and Bruce Smith. Than Greg Bell came over and signed it without me asking him. I was pissed. It's sitting in a box somewhere.

I have some cool Kelly stuff.


That my ex-wife didn't get!! ��

[imbondz]

I don't fully understand the draft, but based on Watkins performance so far and his potential to get even better, I think we are overestimating giving up a first rounder for him. Maybe if we showed more draft eptitude over the past 15 yrs Id think differently.

Now what Washington gave up for RG3 is another story.

[DraftBoy]

For those interested, here is an article on Clowney's injury issue:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/there-s-good-reason-to-fear-that-jadeveon-clowney-might-never-show-his-potential-for-texans--nfl-042345612.html

[Joe Fo Sho]

Maybe if you're a douche it is. 1st rounders bust all the time and the Bills are amazing at drafting busts.

The last bunch of 1st round picks by the Bills

Sammy Watkins
EJ Manuel
Stephon Gilmore
Marcell Dareus
CJ Spiller
Aaron Maybin
Eric Wood
Leodis McKelvin
Marshawn Lynch

This is dating back to 2007, so how many busts did we draft? Ya know, since you say we're so amazing at drafting busts. I see 1, maybe 2 if you count EJ which I wouldn't quite yet.


Can't we just be happy that for once we drafted a good player?

Maybe you should get serious about this. The Bills have drafted several good players in recent history, along with some STUDS. Pay attention.


Or are you telling me that if we had say the 20th pick in the draft next year we'd be a stone cold lock for the Bowl? Get serious.

Way to take my statement and completely blow it out of proportion. Did I say we'd be a lock for the Superbowl with that pick? Nope. My point is that we're not in a position to be using up high draft picks when we don't have to. Every little bit helps this team, and we need all the help we can get.

I'm totes serious, bro.

[Bill Cody]

The last bunch of 1st round picks by the Bills

Sammy Watkins
EJ Manuel
Stephon Gilmore
Marcell Dareus
CJ Spiller
Aaron Maybin
Eric Wood
Leodis McKelvin
Marshawn Lynch

This is dating back to 2007, so how many busts did we draft? Ya know, since you say we're so amazing at drafting busts. I see 1, maybe 2 if you count EJ which I wouldn't quite yet.



Maybe you should get serious about this. The Bills have drafted several good players in recent history, along with some STUDS. Pay attention.



Way to take my statement and completely blow it out of proportion. Did I say we'd be a lock for the Superbowl with that pick? Nope. My point is that we're not in a position to be using up high draft picks when we don't have to. Every little bit helps this team, and we need all the help we can get.

I'm totes serious, bro.

If you go back a little further you get into serious bustland for the Bills but let's break down your list bro, leaving Watkins aside obviously. Manuel- teetering on busthood. Gilmore, solid player but not a star. Dareus, very good player but not a guy you could think about drafting at 20. Spiller- terrible pick, running backs are a dime a dozen and we took him top 10. Maybin- huge bust. Wood- good pick. McKelvin- not a bust but no star. Lynch- misbehaved and was shipped out for a 4th, wasted pick. So you're touting THAT track record to make anyone believe the lost pick is some kind of big huge deal? The best you could say is we missed out on a potential starter but even that is far from a sure thing. Yeah, hate to lose the pick but we did get a guaranteed return on the trade and that's worth something with our track record on the draft.

[Joe Fo Sho]

If you go back a little further you get into serious bustland for the Bills but let's break down your list bro, leaving Watkins aside obviously. Manuel- teetering on busthood. Gilmore, solid player but not a star. Dareus, very good player but not a guy you could think about drafting at 20. Spiller- terrible pick, running backs are a dime a dozen and we took him top 10. Maybin- huge bust. Wood- good pick. McKelvin- not a bust but no star. Lynch- misbehaved and was shipped out for a 4th, wasted pick. So you're touting THAT track record to make anyone believe the lost pick is some kind of big huge deal? The best you could say is we missed out on a potential starter but even that is far from a sure thing. Yeah, hate to lose the pick but we did get a guaranteed return on the trade and that's worth something with our track record on the draft.

How many stars do you think come out of the 1st round of each draft? Half of these picks you're saying "solid player but blah blah blah." You can't get a stud with every 1st round pick, and your odds go to zero if you don't even have a 1st round pick.


Dareus, very good player but not a guy you could think about drafting at 20.

Does this mean Dareus isn't good enough to draft at 20 or he wouldn't be available?


Lynch- misbehaved and was shipped out for a 4th, wasted pick.

You mean sometimes we mismanage our players? What if we did the exact same thing with Sammy? All the more reason not to use 3 draft picks on one guy.


The best you could say is we missed out on a potential starter but even that is far from a sure thing. Yeah, hate to lose the pick but we did get a guaranteed return on the trade and that's worth something with our track record on the draft.

So next years pick is far from a sure thing, but Sammy is guaranteed return? How does that work?

I guess you think we're good enough that we don't need draft picks, especially if they're going to be a garbage player that we'd have to get in the bottom half of the 1st round.

[Bill Cody]

How many stars do you think come out of the 1st round of each draft? Half of these picks you're saying "solid player but blah blah blah." You can't get a stud with every 1st round pick, and your odds go to zero if you don't even have a 1st round pick. I'd say 5 or 6. And another 5 or 6 total washouts. The rest are contributors. I think I kind of know what the 20th pick in the draft is worth, about a 1 in 10 chance it's a star. The Bills lack stars. Trading up is not something I advocate often but I understand why we did it in this case. All I'm saying is the downside is not crippling.




Does this mean Dareus isn't good enough to draft at 20 or he wouldn't be available? Not too often a guy like Dareus slips to 20




You mean sometimes we mismanage our players? What if we did the exact same thing with Sammy? All the more reason not to use 3 draft picks on one guy.

nuh uh. It wasn't the Bills fault MeShawn acted like a punk when he was here. He seems to have grown up a little in Seattle but the guy is a handful. Bet your right now he moves on at the end of the year, they're tired of his act.




So next years pick is far from a sure thing, but Sammy is guaranteed return? How does that work? pretty simple really: next year is a complete unknown, Sammy is on his way to set the all time Bills rookie receiving record. Try to keep up.


I guess you think we're good enough that we don't need draft picks, especially if they're going to be a garbage player that we'd have to get in the bottom half of the 1st round.

yeah that's exactly what I said:urock:

[Joe Fo Sho]

All I'm saying is the downside is not crippling.

Of course it's not crippling. No single draft pick is crippling to a team, unless Mike Ditka is running your draft. The point is that our team has the potential to be better than it is right now if we didn't trade up for Sammy.



Not too often a guy like Dareus slips to 20

Talent is obviously not found in the late 1st round and beyond.



nuh uh. It wasn't the Bills fault MeShawn acted like a punk when he was here. He seems to have grown up a little in Seattle but the guy is a handful. Bet your right now he moves on at the end of the year, they're tired of his act.

Oh no, not a handful! There are prima donnas on every team in this league, several teams handle them appropriately and the Bills don't seem to know how to do that. Even if Marshawn is gone from Seattle at the end of the year, there's going to be a bunch of teams right there waiting to get their hands on him.



pretty simple really: next year is a complete unknown, Sammy is on his way to set the all time Bills rookie receiving record. Try to keep up.

No player has ever regressed from their rookie year, got it.



yeah that's exactly what I said:urock:

Thanks, bud.

[EDS]

Watkins has been great for a rookie receiver. That is almost universally agreed. That said, it is fair to question the decision making process of the Bills front office. This year, they traded up to get a receiver in what was widely regarded as a deep receiver draft. Last season, they traded up for a QB in what was widely regarded as a poor QB draft. Both moves, viewed in isolation, seem ill conceived. That said, if EJ turns into Rogers and Watkins turns into AJ Green no one is going to care too much. That is, unless Cleveland gets the next Rogers/Watt with the pick the Bills gave up.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Watkins has been great for a rookie receiver. That is almost universally agreed. That said, it is fair to question the decision making process of the Bills front office. This year, they traded up to get a receiver in what was widely regarded as a deep receiver draft. Last season, they traded up for a QB in what was widely regarded as a poor QB draft. Both moves, viewed in isolation, seem ill conceived. That said, if EJ turns into Rogers and Watkins turns into AJ Green no one is going to care too much. That is, unless Cleveland gets the next Rogers/Watt with the pick the Bills gave up.

Yup. I don't think anyone would argue that Sammy isn't a top talent. But like I said, if the Bills can become consistent winners no one will think twice about this trade. Winning solves everything.

We traded down for EJ though, not up.

[Bill Cody]

Of course it's not crippling. No single draft pick is crippling to a team, unless Mike Ditka is running your draft. The point is that our team has the potential to be better than it is right now if we didn't trade up for Sammy.
...and the potential to be worse. Thanks for the update!





Talent is obviously not found in the late 1st round and beyond.

And blueberries are tasty with oatmeal. The point is Dareus is irrelevant for a discussion of what a pick in the 20's is likely worth.





Oh no, not a handful! There are prima donnas on every team in this league, several teams handle them appropriately and the Bills don't seem to know how to do that. Even if Marshawn is gone from Seattle at the end of the year, there's going to be a bunch of teams right there waiting to get their hands on him.
sure talent rules in the NFL and everyone thinks they can change people. But usually the tiger doesn't change his stripes. Meshawn was a pain in the ass here and I'm glad he was shipped out.





No player has ever regressed from their rookie year, got it.

Are you always this big of a douche? I'm thinking yes.

[DesertFox24]

To accurately be able to determine if we got a good deal or not is to look at what Cleveland gets with the first and 4th we give them. Additionally what we know for a fact is Ebron was going to be the pick had we not been able to get Sammy. So we will compare Sammy to Ebron and the two picks Cleveland has. We will never know whom the bills would have taken at those spots probably different players but at that is all we can do. If Cleveland take an OLB with our first round pick then who cares we have Bradham, Kiko, and Brown, if they take a WR we have Sammy and I promise he is better than any WR in this draft. Only position they can take that would remotely make me jealous would be a HOF guard or HOF pass rusher, the pass rusher will not be there more than likely but a great guard will. Bottom line time will tell how this trade plays out. You also have to take in account the current draft had we not traded away 15 picks and traded 14 picks we would not have Cryus and probably not Preston Brown. Cryus has not done anything this year and if that continues next year then it is a bust but he has some serious potential on the line and if he pans out then we made the right move.

[Joe Fo Sho]

The point is Dareus is irrelevant for a discussion of what a pick in the 20's is likely worth.

Ok, pick and choose whichever facts you'd like.



sure talent rules in the NFL and everyone thinks they can change people. But usually the tiger doesn't change his stripes. Meshawn was a pain in the ass here and I'm glad he was shipped out.

I didn't think he was a pain in the ass when he was fighting for all of those yards and touchdowns, but that's just me.



Are you always this big of a douche? I'm thinking yes.

I am when someone starts out a conversation with me by calling me a douche.

[Bill Cody]

Ok, pick and choose whichever facts you'd like.

Fact: Cleveland's pick from the Bills will not be third. If that's confusing, have mommy explain.





I didn't think he was a pain in the ass when he was fighting for all of those yards and touchdowns, but that's just me.

He wasn't even the best back on the team. Fred Jackson was. With zero sideshow. Fact.





I am when someone starts out a conversation with me by calling me a douche.

No no I just asked the question. It's probably not you anyway it's just your posts that are douches.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Fact: Cleveland's pick from the Bills will not be third. If that's confusing, have mommy explain.

My point is that the Bills have a decent draft history in the 1st round. Your point is that some of their history shouldn't be considered because they're not picking top 10 this year like usual. I was just rebutting your point that the Bills are amazing at drafting busts. I think my point still holds weight.



He wasn't even the best back on the team. Fred Jackson was. With zero sideshow. Fact.

What here is the 'fact?' That there was zero sideshow or that Freddie was better than Lynch? Because only one of those is a fact, and that's a fact.



No no I just asked the question. It's probably not you anyway it's just your posts that are douches.


Maybe if you're a douche it is.

That's what you said. I'm not saying I'm not a douche, I'm just saying I'm definitely going to be a douche if someone calls me one.

[Bill Cody]

My point is that the Bills have a decent draft history in the 1st round. Your point is that some of their history shouldn't be considered because they're not picking top 10 this year like usual. I was just rebutting your point that the Bills are amazing at drafting busts. I think my point still holds weight.

I think that track record is not impressive at all when you consider where the Bills were picking. I would take the dareus pick out because the odds of taking a good player at 3 that year were pretty much 100%, so how do the Bills get credit for that?





What here is the 'fact?' That there was zero sideshow or that Freddie was better than Lynch? Because only one of those is a fact, and that's a fact.

2009 was the last year Lynch was here. Compare the stats for the 2 players, they're not close. Lynch had quit on the Bills and he was acting up. You can't "make" a player perform. He got the shoe and deservedly so.







I'm not saying I'm not a douche

all right then. Glad we finally agree.:bf1:

[Joe Fo Sho]

I think that track record is not impressive at all when you consider where the Bills were picking. I would take the dareus pick out because the odds of taking a good player at 3 that year were pretty much 100%, so how do the Bills get credit for that?

Just like Clowney was a can't miss prospect? Nothing is guaranteed, I'm sure you agree. We could've taken one of the quarterbacks at 3, which would've been a terrible mistake. But yes, that year the top of the draft was littered with talent.



2009 was the last year Lynch was here. Compare the stats for the 2 players, they're not close. Lynch had quit on the Bills and he was acting up. You can't "make" a player perform. He got the shoe and deservedly so.

Lynch absolutely was the best back on the team. If you get a bigger sample size you'll see Lynch is better and it isn't even close.



all right then. Glad we finally agree.:bf1:

It's a start.

[Bill Cody]

Just like Clowney was a can't miss prospect? Nothing is guaranteed, I'm sure you agree. We could've taken one of the quarterbacks at 3, which would've been a terrible mistake. But yes, that year the top of the draft was littered with talent.

so we agree that pick is out:whistling





Lynch absolutely was the best back on the team. If you get a bigger sample size you'll see Lynch is better and it isn't even close.

We couldn't afford a bigger sample. THE MAN HAD QUIT. Jackson has had a better YPC right along. Lynch is more talented sure but he wasn't the better back for the Bills period.





It's a start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA

[Joe Fo Sho]

so we agree that pick is out:whistling

17209



We couldn't afford a bigger sample. THE MAN HAD QUIT. Jackson has had a better YPC right along. Lynch is more talented sure but he wasn't the better back for the Bills period.

What we couldn't afford is to trade Marshawn away for a 4th round pick and use our 1st round pick on Spiller. Find a way to make it work, that's what good teams do.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA

:beers:

[HHURRICANE]

If you go back a little further you get into serious bustland for the Bills but let's break down your list bro, leaving Watkins aside obviously. Manuel- teetering on busthood. Gilmore, solid player but not a star. Dareus, very good player but not a guy you could think about drafting at 20. Spiller- terrible pick, running backs are a dime a dozen and we took him top 10. Maybin- huge bust. Wood- good pick. McKelvin- not a bust but no star. Lynch- misbehaved and was shipped out for a 4th, wasted pick. So you're touting THAT track record to make anyone believe the lost pick is some kind of big huge deal? The best you could say is we missed out on a potential starter but even that is far from a sure thing. Yeah, hate to lose the pick but we did get a guaranteed return on the trade and that's worth something with our track record on the draft.

Thanks for understanding my point.

We could have the number one pick in the next 5 drafts and not have a guaranteee that 1 player will be great. Sammy looked like a once in a decade talent at that position regardless of how deep the class was.

The guy is on the field as a first string starter and a contributor. This is as close to a for sure pick as you get.

If you told me that you only get the top 5 five pick every other year but it's a guaranteed franchise player...I'd take that deal everytime.

[Bill Cody]

What we couldn't afford is to trade Marshawn away for a 4th round pick and use our 1st round pick on Spiller. Find a way to make it work, that's what good teams do.

They did find a way to make it work- they moved him 3000 miles away. Works for me!:boom: I disagreed with both picks when they were made. In today's NFL if you're going to draft a RB top 15 the guy better be Jim Brown II:beers:

[The Jokeman]

So you rather have Watkins and no 1st or 4th rounder next year over...

Having next years 1st and 4th rounder
And one of the following...

Mike Evans, WR
Jarvis Landry WR, Miami Dolphins
Kelvin Benjamin WR, Carolina Panthers
Odell Beckham Jr. New York Giants
Jordan Matthews WR, Philadelphia Eagles
Brandin Cooks WR, New Orleans Saints
Allen Robinson WR, Jacksonville Jaguars
Allen Hurns WR, Jacksonville Jaguars
John Brown WR, Arizona Cardinals
Martavis Bryant, Steelers

Evans was off the board had the Bills stuck at pick 9 assuming that the rest of the draft played out as it did. That would leave us Beckham and Benjamin to truly debate over. Beckham seems to be more dynamic of the two but at the same time the Bills could use Bejamin's height in the red zone. Yet Watkins might be the most complete player of all three. All things considered I still think the Bills didn't make a glaring error making the trade and I say this as someone who hated the trade when it happened. As I was all set on draft day to accept we were going to take Ebron at pick 9 and felt we really gave way too much for Watkins. Yet looking back it wasn't a bad move. As now the worse draft move looks like the pick of Kujo who at the time looked like a good move. That all said we really should give the whole draft two or three years before we make a full analysis. If you ask me today would I want Watkins and Beckham/Benjamin and our 1st and 4th in 2015. To be honest I'd be on the fence which says it wasn't a horrible trade.

[The Jokeman]

Yup. I don't think anyone would argue that Sammy isn't a top talent. But like I said, if the Bills can become consistent winners no one will think twice about this trade. Winning solves everything.

We traded down for EJ though, not up.

Yet and in trading down for EJ we were able to nab Kiko Alonso, Goodwin (but lose out on Terrence Williams or Keenan Allen as these were other WRs taken in Round 3 we could have had if didn't move down with St Louis but we might have still taken Goodwin) and Chris Gragg if want to play the WHAT IF game. All things considered the EJ trade looks good on paper if Kiko returns and plays to his rookie level or better for the rest of his career.