A Football Team With A Quarterback Problem -- Why This Team Is A Failure

[Typ0]

I've been saying this for years an now feel the evidence mounts in favor if management ineptitudes. It's driven from the culture that the player decisions be made from the top--including what players are brought onto the team. Marrone has now exposed this over the course of the season. While I can't be certain I now believe it's clearer the argument during training camp was about the QB. And when the choice came down to bench EJ it clearly came from Marrone and it was a "go ahead and fire me" type of attitude at the time he was clearly making a stance. Now he's saying someone else wants EJ to play and he's playing Orton.

It's no wonder we can't get a top knotch coach in here because that person would never get the players he desires on the team to be successful. Marrone thinks EJ is a bust and can't play. This team is good! Unfortunately it's time to clean house and start over :(.

[Typ0]

I would even go so far to say the slacking on getting a QB like Orton in here in the first place is on the GM to protect and baby the EJ project. This is ****ing rediculous bull**** to throw this entire talented team to the wolves because you have a hard on to be right about a ****ty draft pick you made. Were Orton on the team even two weeks earlier and allowed to beat out EJ for the starting job the team could be in a different place. Orton could be in a different place. The whole psyche of the team could be in a different place. This bull**** is making me want to puke!

[better days]

Orton make me want to puke.

So does Hackett.

COACHING is the #1 problem on this team.

[Novacane]

I would even go so far to say the slacking on getting a QB like Orton in here in the first place is on the GM to protect and baby the EJ project. This is ****ing rediculous bull**** to throw this entire talented team to the wolves because you have a hard on to be right about a ****ty draft pick you made. Were Orton on the team even two weeks earlier and allowed to beat out EJ for the starting job the team could be in a different place. Orton could be in a different place. The whole psyche of the team could be in a different place. This bull**** is making me want to puke!


Why do you think that? Orton has gotten worse the more he's played. Orton has been average his entire career. He's on his 5th team. I really don't understand why so many here see him as a difference maker? It defies logic!

[Typ0]

Why do you think that? Orton has gotten worse the more he's played. Orton has been average his entire career. He's on his 5th team. I really don't understand why so many here see him as a difference maker? It defies logic!


because you are seeing what you want to see. He is a difference maker only in that he's better than a quarterback who can't play at all. Orton can play. He can make throws. Maybe he's just the average Joe QB but he's got enough skills and experience to be average joe QB. Maybe if he were allowed to prepare a little bit more and practice a little bit more the results would have been better as well. Maybe if he were playing in the Cleveland game there would be a W on the board for that one. Kyle Orton is not the answer but the choices we had on the table at the beginning of training camp were Kyle Orton or EJ Manuel and for some reason until several weeks into the season this team chose EJ Manuel and did 't even bring Orton in until the end of camp. Then, when EJ got sat it's pretty clear Marrone had just had enough of being told that EJ was the guy playing and he made the call ... "then fire me because I dont' want to be here at this point if EJ keeps playing I have a whole team to worry about". So Kyle Orton is the answer when the question states: who to you play EJ Manuel or Kyle Orton.

[WagonCircler]

This entire QB mess was caused by Doug Whaley.

The sick, scary part is, even if we try to acquire a QB this offseason, the guy picking that QB will be Whaley, whose judgement pertaining to QBs is FAHKING HORRENDOUS.

This is a guy who thought it was fine and dandy to go into this season with EJ "Trent" Manuel and Jeff Tuel as his Quarterbacks, until his HC lost it on him.

Orton was the only choice, because only a damned fool of a GM would wait until the last week of the offseason to pick up a QB.

I pray to God that Terry learned his lesson with Darcy and sends everybody packing, up to and including Whaley, Brandon and Marrone.

We finally have a basically unlimited budget to woo qualified people to run this organization. It would be monumentally stupid not to take advantage of that.

[Novacane]

Fire them all. I'm fine with that. Just don't tell me we can win with Kyle Orton.

[trapezeus]

I would even go so far to say the slacking on getting a QB like Orton in here in the first place is on the GM to protect and baby the EJ project. This is ****ing rediculous bull**** to throw this entire talented team to the wolves because you have a hard on to be right about a ****ty draft pick you made. Were Orton on the team even two weeks earlier and allowed to beat out EJ for the starting job the team could be in a different place. Orton could be in a different place. The whole psyche of the team could be in a different place. This bull**** is making me want to puke!


orton played better with no practice than he currently is. i don't think it's EJ or orton. they aren't playing well, but they have both reverted to being ultra conservative than trying to make plays. two qbs with drastically different strengths doing the same thing? points to the coaches philosphies.

[TacklingDummy]

COACHING is the #1 problem on this team.

Funny how all the coaches the Bills have gone through forget how to coach once the Bills hire them and then remember how to coach again once the Bills fire them.

Coaches change, crappy QB play does that to coaches.

Get a Jim Kelly in here and the next thing you'll have is your next Marv Levy.

[Mike]

Orton make me want to puke.

So does Hackett.

COACHING is the #1 problem on this team.

Wow... Lol You argued that is was such a good hire... Now your turning on your boy...

I told you Marron was a aweful hire! The same way Chan was an aweful hire and DJ before him.

Hindsight is 20/20 and apparently the blind homers want to put on the rose colored glasses, look the other way when the team hires .500 coaches and drafts second rate and then come to the *****ing party a few years later.


The central question now is: if the Bills hire another Marone will you be supporting it for another 2-3 years or will it be obvious from day 1???

[Novacane]

Funny how all the coaches the Bills have gone through forget how to coach once the Bills hire them and then remember how to coach again once the Bills fire them.

Coaches change, crappy QB play does that to coaches.

Get a Jim Kelly in here and the next thing you'll have is your next Marv Levy.



You are right. Our biggest problem by far has been QB. A great QB will make an average coach look good. We've had some real losers as HC though. Williams, Mularkey, Jauron, Gailey, Marone! :puke: Mularkey confirmed he was a stooge with his second chance.

[WagonCircler]

You are right. Our biggest problem by far has been QB. A great QB will make an average coach look good. We've had some real losers as HC though. Williams, Mularkey, Jauron, Gailey, Marone! :puke: Mularkey confirmed he was a stooge with his second chance.

And what was the common denominator with all those losers?

They were hired on the cheap by Ralph Wilson.

Now that we have Terry, we need to gut this organization and start fresh with a new culture of winning. Ban the mediocrity.

[trapezeus]

on one end you can have a HoF QB and he can mask poor coaching. on the other hand you can have HoF coaches which can cover for mediocre qb play.

somewhere in between, you need coaches who can identify what is going to be his QB's strengths, and minimize his weaknesses.

a good/average coach in pete carroll matched with a good to average qb in russell wilson (not enough info to know who drives their success, though carroll sucked in other NFL stops and now is doing ok)

a good/average coach in John Harbaugh worked with a good to average qb in flacco to win a superbowl.

a good to maybe HoF coach worked with a Qb who at times has good to HoF stats to win a superbowl with the giants.


Where are the bills on this? we have a below average to average qb with a way below average OC. to me, you improve the OC and see what parts of your offense improve along with bringing in some new talent in areas like G, TE, and QB and see who improves and who doesnt. It's easier to fire 1 guy than 11 guys and the supporting cast.

[better days]

Wow... Lol You argued that is was such a good hire... Now your turning on your boy...

I told you Marron was a aweful hire! The same way Chan was an aweful hire and DJ before him.

Hindsight is 20/20 and apparently the blind homers want to put on the rose colored glasses, look the other way when the team hires .500 coaches and drafts second rate and then come to the *****ing party a few years later.


The central question now is: if the Bills hire another Marone will you be supporting it for another 2-3 years or will it be obvious from day 1???

You don't know what the hell you are talking about!

I NEVER said Marrone was a good hire. EVER. IDIOT.

[Typ0]

There are a lot of positives with Marrone. If he could manage a frigging game I'd be totally on board....but he can't so he needs to go. It's unfortunate. Whaley needs to go too. The whole lot of them need to be sent packing. Where is this consultant? We need to hire a consultant who can hire properly not someone to say what's wrong. They all need to go.

[better days]

Funny how all the coaches the Bills have gone through forget how to coach once the Bills hire them and then remember how to coach again once the Bills fire them.

Coaches change, crappy QB play does that to coaches.

Get a Jim Kelly in here and the next thing you'll have is your next Marv Levy.

Fitz was no Jim Kelly. But the offense still looked pretty damn good when Chan was HC...if he only had a decent DC.

[Typ0]

Fitz only problem was he tanked during a game when he struggled. If he could dust off and start over his career would be completely different and he's still be here too. He could always start fresh in a new week but could never do it during a game.

[Mike]

You don't know what the hell you are talking about!

I NEVER said Marrone was a good hire. EVER. IDIOT.

Yes you Did!
You defended the move to no end. You even downplayed the much better candidates: chip, Reid, etc...

You even said that you expected the team to win at least 8-10 games in his first season and if he didn't you would admit Marone was a bad hire. The Bills went 6-10 and you blamed inpuries... Lol

face it your a Marone supporter & fan
your a Bills apologist & not a real bills fan

[YardRat]

I think a few people need to put down the Midol and step away from the ledge. There's an awful lot of guessing going on, and saying it's so doesn't make it the truth.

[better days]

Yes you Did!
You defended the move to no end. You even downplayed the much better candidates: chip, Reid, etc...

You even said that you expected the team to win at least 8-10 games in his first season and if he didn't you would admit Marone was a bad hire. The Bills went 6-10 and you blamed inpuries... Lol

face it your a Marone supporter & fan
your a Bills apologist & not a real bills fan

I said Marrone needed to win at least 6 games his first year or he should be FIRED.

The reason I said that is because Chan won 6 games & I felt Marrone should at least match what Chan did.

This past year I said Marrone needed to win at least 8 games or he should be FIRED.

If I thought Marrone was a good hire, why would I say he needed to win a certain number of games or be fired?

I NEVER said he was a good hire. PERIOD.

You are WRONG!!!!!!!!

[Mike]

I said Marrone needed to win at least 6 games his first year or he should be FIRED.

The reason I said that is because Chan won 6 games & I felt Marrone should at least match what Chan did.

This past year I said Marrone needed to win at least 8 games or he should be FIRED.

If I thought Marrone was a good hire, why would I say he needed to win a certain number of games or be fired?

I NEVER said he was a good hire. PERIOD.

You are WRONG!!!!!!!!

Obviously you Once Again have FAMOUSLY "Changed your Mind" about what you thought.... Classic

[YardRat]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/archive/index.php/t-216403.html


This is TERRIBLE news to wake up to. I guess I will have to change my user name.


Yeah, I look forward to 8-8 ad infinitum.

[better days]

Obviously you Once Again have FAMOUSLY "Changed your Mind" about what you thought.... Classic

Yeah. I do change my mind.

Anyone that doesn't change their mind when shown they were mistaken is an IDIOT.

[better days]

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/archive/index.php/t-216403.html

I HOPED for 8-8.

I also said Marrone should be FIRED if he only won 6 games his first year.

And I said that a number of times.

Why not link one of those posts YardRat?

[jamze132]

Funny how all the coaches the Bills have gone through forget how to coach once the Bills hire them and then remember how to coach again once the Bills fire them.

Coaches change, crappy QB play does that to coaches.

Get a Jim Kelly in here and the next thing you'll have is your next Marv Levy.
Yes it really is that simple. a good QB will make any team/coach/owner look like tits.

[GreedoII]

Brandon is the root of these issues. He needs to go. If not then just put in the basement to sell tickets. He's too involved with coaches and players and negotiating. It's his coach not Whaley's. It's obvious The GM and Head coach don;t see eye to eye. Is Nix fired yet? Why is this turd still hanging around? I hope to God Kim P. sees this a-hole for what he is. A bored semi retired meddler....

[djjimkelly]

You are right. Our biggest problem by far has been QB. A great QB will make an average coach look good. We've had some real losers as HC though. Williams, Mularkey, Jauron, Gailey, Marone! :puke: Mularkey confirmed he was a stooge with his second chance.



and the we have bruce arians winning 11 games this year with a carousel at the QB position

its a symbiotic relationship which we havent had here in 20 years basically

[better days]

and the we have bruce arians winning 11 games this year with a carousel at the QB position

its a symbiotic relationship which we havent had here in 20 years basically

Yeah. I have said Arians is the HC the Bills & every other team that changed Coaches missed out on.

[pmoon6]

I take issue with the statement "The Team Is A Failure". We are have been competitive in almost every game. We beat the Broncos in their house, if you take away the plethora of unjust penalties. Our defense is pretty damned good.

Of course, many say a team is a failure if the lose the Super Bowl.

Unfortunately, those that make these statements are failures themselves.

[better days]

I take issue with the statement "The Team Is A Failure". We are have been competitive in almost every game. We beat the Broncos in their house, if you take away the plethora of unjust penalties. Our defense is pretty damned good.

Of course, many say a team is a failure if the lose the Super Bowl.

Unfortunately, those that make these statements are failures themselves.

I would not call it a failure, but a disappointment.

With this defense, the Bills should have made the playoffs.

IMO, that didn't happen because of Marrone's conservative nature & Hackett's terrible playcalling.

[pmoon6]

I would not call it a failure, but a disappointment.

With this defense, the Bills should have made the playoffs.

IMO, that didn't happen because of Marrone's conservative nature & Hackett's terrible playcalling.Once again, you blame the coaches for lack of production on the field and discount the team trying to stop you.

We have played some pretty stout run defenses, which is our strength. I don't like some of the playcalls, but I also don't like the lack of execution, which is an 11 man effort. You can blame the OC if you like, but it's more complex than that. Also, Orton has the ability to change the play depending on his pre-snap read, so putting it all on the HC and OC is simplistic at best.

Then again, spectators need a scapegoat when they can't rub their pathetic peckers on the furniture after a loss.

[better days]

Once again, you blame the coaches for lack of production on the field and discount the team trying to stop you.

We have played some pretty stout run defenses, which is our strength. I don't like some of the playcalls, but I also don't like the lack of execution, which is an 11 man effort. You can blame the OC if you like, but it's more complex than that. Also, Orton has the ability to change the play depending on his pre-snap read, so putting it all on the HC and OC is simplistic at best.

Then again, spectators need a scapegoat when they can't rub their pathetic peckers on the furniture after a loss.

The thing is if a play does not work, it is the OC's fault if he keeps calling that play over & over again.

Yes, I am talking about running the ball up the middle on first down. Over & over again.

Plays that do work are the plays that should be called again & again.

[WagonCircler]

The thing is if a play does not work, it is the OC's fault if he keeps calling that play over & over again.

Yes, I am talking about running the ball up the middle on first down. Over & over again.

Plays that do work are the plays that should be called again & again.

But if you run them over and over again, they won't work anymore. There has to be a mix.

The problem is that no plays work when your Guards suck and your QB sucks (both of them).

[pmoon6]

But if you run them over and over again, they won't work anymore. There has to be a mix.

The problem is that no plays work when your Guards suck and your QB sucks (both of them).Add to that if a team has a strong pass rush, Orton needs to get rid of it quickly, so the long ball gets shoved out of the playbook. The playcalls get limited because Orton can't really move and our O-Line has trouble with protection against the better pass rush teams like Denver.

[Bill Cody]

Get a Jim Kelly in here and the next thing you'll have is your next Marv Levy.

Jim's kind of old but he might be an upgrade

[YardRat]

I HOPED for 8-8.

I also said Marrone should be FIRED if he only won 6 games his first year.

And I said that a number of times.

Why not link one of those posts YardRat?

I posted those for your benefit, to show that you've been somewhat consistent with your thoughts about Marrone from the very beginning to this point, as opposed to the accusation that you drastically changed your mind.

[better days]

Add to that if a team has a strong pass rush, Orton needs to get rid of it quickly, so the long ball gets shoved out of the playbook. The playcalls get limited because Orton can't really move and our O-Line has trouble with protection against the better pass rush teams like Denver.

ANY QB needs to get rid of the ball quickly in the NFL.

Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Luck are GOOD because they all get rid of the ball quickly.

Ortons biggest problem is he does not do that.

[better days]

I posted those for your benefit, to show that you've been somewhat consistent with your thoughts about Marrone from the very beginning to this point, as opposed to the accusation that you drastically changed your mind.

Yeah I realized that after I posted. Thanks.

It is just BS, the people that say I said things I did not say.

I have to defend myself enough with things I do say.

[Typ0]

ANY QB needs to get rid of the ball quickly in the NFL.

Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Luck are GOOD because they all get rid of the ball quickly.

Ortons biggest problem is he does not do that.


The big problem the offense has been having is gut wrenching turnovers. Orton is not as bad and/or frustrating as people are saying IMO. Yes, he's certainly not the top of the echelon in QBs but you aren't watching a guy out there who can't make a play either. He makes plays. Jeppers last week we were so desparate and he made a huge throw and play that kept the whole game alive for us. Unfortunately we got down to the red zone and he threw a pic which negated it. My point being the play was there and Orton threatens the whole field on every down defenses know that. We haven't had that here since Bledsoe really. Fitz was competent but once you got into his head he was done for the day. Orton isn't like that ... he has a competitive winning attitude and dusts off. So all and all I would say he's going to keep giving you a chance to win and make some mistakes that cost you at the same time. That's what you get with him ...

[better days]

The big problem the offense has been having is gut wrenching turnovers. Orton is not as bad and/or frustrating as people are saying IMO. Yes, he's certainly not the top of the echelon in QBs but you aren't watching a guy out there who can't make a play either. He makes plays. Jeppers last week we were so desparate and he made a huge throw and play that kept the whole game alive for us. Unfortunately we got down to the red zone and he threw a pic which negated it. My point being the play was there and Orton threatens the whole field on every down defenses know that. We haven't had that here since Bledsoe really. Fitz was competent but once you got into his head he was done for the day. Orton isn't like that ... he has a competitive winning attitude and dusts off. So all and all I would say he's going to keep giving you a chance to win and make some mistakes that cost you at the same time. That's what you get with him ...

Well, I don't know how the blame should be divided between Orton & Hackett, but the Bills did not throw the ball downfield at all in the first half against the Broncos.

Orton did not threaten the whole field for an entire half. By the time the Bills opened up the offense, the game was out of reach.

And if the OL is as bad as some people think, EJ who has shown the ability to throw while rolling out is the QB that should be playing.

[WagonCircler]

EJ who has shown the ability to throw while rolling out is the QB that should be playing.

No, he hasn't. Only in your dreams.

[better days]

No, he hasn't. Only in your dreams.

YES, EJ has shown that ability.

[WagonCircler]

YES, EJ has shown that ability.

Ability to throw? Maybe. Ability to throw accurately? Hell no.

You know why we no longer have the Buffalo Jills?

It's because the team could no longer guarantee their safety with EJ throwing the ball.

[Typ0]

Well, I don't know how the blame should be divided between Orton & Hackett, but the Bills did not throw the ball downfield at all in the first half against the Broncos.

Orton did not threaten the whole field for an entire half. By the time the Bills opened up the offense, the game was out of reach.

And if the OL is as bad as some people think, EJ who has shown the ability to throw while rolling out is the QB that should be playing.


You get that from the type of player it is and how he plays. It comes from the game film and how you prepare for your opponent. Maybe we didn't throw downfield but you can bet the Bronco's had to prepare for it with Orton going to start.

I don't really know how to respond about EJ. In my opinion he was/is not ready to play yet. At least I hope that's the case and he can get ready to play. He can roll out he can run he can do a lot of stuff he certainly has a lot of tools at his disposal. What he's not able to do is process what's going on out there well enough to be successful. Until he can do that saying he's the guy who should be playing is kinda silly IMO. I think that is the thing that puts Marroone in a bad place is the management wants EJ to play just like a lot of fans do. It's like his playing is going to solve the problem--but it doesn't really. It might...but not necessarily and that is not what we saw happening when he was playing. So putting him out there and forcing the issue just so it can happen on other people's schedule with utter disregard for EJ Manuel's schedule...well that is ignorant and detrimental to EJ Manuel.

[Novacane]

The big problem the offense has been having is gut wrenching turnovers. Orton is not as bad and/or frustrating as people are saying IMO....


He's not as good as many of you are saying and that's not opinion. There's 10 years of history to prove it.

[swiper]

Yeah I realized that after I posted. Thanks.

It is just BS, the people that say I said things I did not say.

I have to defend myself enough with things I do say.

Then stop saying the idiotic things that you say.

Case in point:


YES, EJ has shown that ability.

[Typ0]

He's not as good as many of you are saying and that's not opinion. There's 10 years of history to prove it.

How many quarterbacks have we had here who have played teams to winning records and playoff berths since Jim Kelly? Two? Drew Bledsoe and Kyle Orton. Who else?

[The Jokeman]

How many quarterbacks have we had here who have played teams to winning records and playoff berths since Jim Kelly? Two? Drew Bledsoe and Kyle Orton. Who else?

I hate to admit it but we won with Flutie too. Yet you know why we won with most of those teams? We had pretty good defenses on all those teams too.

[Typ0]

I hate to admit it but we won with Flutie too. Yet you know why we won with most of those teams? We had pretty good defenses on all those teams too.

oh you are right I forgot about him. I don't want to take anything away from Doug Flutie the guy is a competitor and brings an intangible to the table that is hard to pin point. He deserves the credit for taking this team to the playoffs.

[better days]

Then stop saying the idiotic things that you say.

Case in point:

See this is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

ANYONE that has watched EJ play that is not a HATER of EJ knows I am right about that.

[WagonCircler]

See this is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

ANYONE that has watched EJ play that is not a HATER of EJ knows I am right about that.

No, they know that you're living in a bizarre fantasy world that has zero connection to reality.

That's why HIS OWN COACH won't even consider playing him, despite the fact that Orton has been awful.

Marrone is looking to save his job by any means necessary and he knows that playing EJ would be the end of the line. And it would be a signal to the team that they're waving the white flag.

Face it, your boy EJ is DONE.

[swiper]

See this is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

ANYONE that has watched EJ play that is not a HATER of EJ knows I am right about that.

You are not right about that.

[pmoon6]

No, they know that you're living in a bizarre fantasy world that has zero connection to reality.

That's why HIS OWN COACH won't even consider playing him, despite the fact that Orton has been awful.

Marrone is looking to save his job by any means necessary and he knows that playing EJ would be the end of the line. And it would be a signal to the team that they're waving the white flag.

Face it, your boy EJ is DONE.I don't know about "Done" given it's possible for him to improve, given time.

Unfortunately, the NFL is a win now league and does the team have the time to invest in a project that may never pan out. Given our absence from the playoffs in this century, I would say No. Personally, I thought Tuel had more upside because he could make most of the throws that E.J. hasn't been able to, at least in the one game he started.

You know way more than me about QB mechanics, but I always cringed when Manuel would look like he was guiding the ball. It doesn't look like a natural throwing motion.

[Typ0]

No one knows anything about Manuel's developmental schedule right now not even himself.


No, they know that you're living in a bizarre fantasy world that has zero connection to reality.

That's why HIS OWN COACH won't even consider playing him, despite the fact that Orton has been awful.

Marrone is looking to save his job by any means necessary and he knows that playing EJ would be the end of the line. And it would be a signal to the team that they're waving the white flag.

Face it, your boy EJ is DONE.

[better days]

No, they know that you're living in a bizarre fantasy world that has zero connection to reality.

That's why HIS OWN COACH won't even consider playing him, despite the fact that Orton has been awful.

Marrone is looking to save his job by any means necessary and he knows that playing EJ would be the end of the line. And it would be a signal to the team that they're waving the white flag.

Face it, your boy EJ is DONE.

Well EJ is not my boy. But Orton isn't my boy either.

We will see what happens next year.

[WagonCircler]

No one knows anything about Manuel's developmental schedule right now not even himself.

I know everything I need to know. Orson has been horrible, and EJ isn't even an option. That tells me all I need to know.

[Typ0]

I know everything I need to know. Orson has been horrible, and EJ isn't even an option. That tells me all I need to know.

Well Orton is what he is I will agree with you on that one...but the whole record on Manuel has not been written yet IMO. I was hoping he would show up this year like the monster he could be with the tools he has but the brain doesn't work well enough I guess....

And if you want to argue about it to see who gets the last word this thread can go on and on forever. Thank you!

[stuckincincy]

Well Orton is what he is I will agree with you on that one...but the whole record on Manuel has not been written yet IMO. I was hoping he would show up this year like the monster he could be with the tools he has but the brain doesn't work well enough I guess....

And if you want to argue about it to see who gets the last word this thread can go on and on forever. Thank you!

Heh - how many weeks ago was it here, when Orton being whispered about as the Second Coming, and the sign-em-up-long term crowd was clucking with glee? :bandwagon