Is this the best Bills defense ever?

[BuffaloRedleg]

We've had some superb defenses over the years, is this the best?

I think the answer might be yes.

Either way, it's quite an indictment of the modern ESPN highlight loving douche-friendly NFL and the Bills Offense that a team with a defense as unreal as this will most likely not even make the playoffs.

[pmoon6]

We've had some superb defenses over the years, is this the best?

I think the answer might be yes.

Either way, it's quite an indictment of the modern ESPN highlight loving douche-friendly NFL and the Bills Offense that a team with a defense as unreal as this will most likely not even make the playoffs.Hard question.

Different rules, different game.

The NFL is a shadow of it's former self. I've thought for some time that the QB's should where dresses. Now, you can include the WR's.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Hard question.

Different rules, different game.

The NFL is a shadow of it's former self. I've thought for some time that the QB's should where dresses. Now, you can include the WR's.

I was genuinely hoping that either you or Wagon would be the first to respond as you old school guys give the best long term perspective overall haha

I think the fact that this defense shut down 2 future HOF QBs in the modern NFL makes the case even more strong, actually.

[WagonCircler]

Hard question.

Different rules, different game.

The NFL is a shadow of it's former self. I've thought for some time that the QB's should where dresses. Now, you can include the WR's.

I think, though, if you compare each era's Bills Defense against its contemporaries, this Defense really stands out. And there's not really a glaring weak link--like Jeff Wright--for example. Or Walt Corey.

Can you imagine Dareus instead of Jeff Wright or Schwartz instead of Corey in SB XXV?

OK. Getting angry. I need to stop thinking about this.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I think, though, if you compare each era's Bills Defense against its contemporaries, this Defense really stands out. And there's not really a glaring weak link--like Jeff Wright--for example. Or Walt Corey.

Can you imagine Dareus instead of Jeff Wright or Schwartz instead of Corey in SB XXV?

OK. Getting angry. I need to stop thinking about this.

I used to love Jeff Wright as a kid. I think he visited my elementary school for some event and I got his card.

At ~7 that's pretty much all that is needed to be a fan.

[OpIv37]

No.

This D is great- don't get me wrong.

But remember when the '04 D held Cleveland to 27 total yards of offense? THAT was dominant. The late 90's defenses with Bryce Paup and Chris Spielman were great as well.

[BuffaloRedleg]

No.

This D is great- don't get me wrong.

But remember when the '04 D held Cleveland to 27 total yards of offense? THAT was dominant. The late 90's defenses with Bryce Paup and Chris Spielman were great as well.

I was thinking the late 90's, that '04 team I forgot was ridiculous as well, but have they ever performed a feat like they have in the last 2 weeks?

I guess you have to weight the whole season, but I think also the NFL has changed a lot since those days in favor of the offense.

At the very least, this was the most impressive 2 game stretch defensively in history.

[pmoon6]

I think, though, if you compare each era's Bills Defense against its contemporaries, this Defense really stands out. And there's not really a glaring weak link--like Jeff Wright--for example. Or Walt Corey.

Can you imagine Dareus instead of Jeff Wright or Schwartz instead of Corey in SB XXV?

OK. Getting angry. I need to stop thinking about this.Good point. I always thought if they kept Smerlas for that year that they would have fared better against the Giants, but that's pure speculation. i also thought the loss of Derrick Burroughs hurt the defense in general. He was shaping up to be a great corner when they found his neck abnormality.

Thinking a little more about, Redleg makes some good points about this defense. Our line gives us the latitude to just rush four and our backers are good against the run. If they are not our best defense, they are certainly in the conversation.

Personally, I think the '64 and 65 defenses were the best. They talk about the Chefs with Willie Lanier and Buck Buchanon because they won the SB, but our defense was fantastic, holding a Sid Gillman offense to seven points total in TWO title games. Remarkable. I would have loved to see those teams matched up with the Packers and the Browns, but it's just Buffalo's luck to be a year or two short of history.

[pmoon6]

I'll toss in the "Bermuda Triangle" as well.

[jimmifli]

Wade's D's were pretty good too. Good enough to make the playoffs.

[OpIv37]

I was thinking the late 90's, that '04 team I forgot was ridiculous as well, but have they ever performed a feat like they have in the last 2 weeks?

I guess you have to weight the whole season, but I think also the NFL has changed a lot since those days in favor of the offense.

At the very least, this was the most impressive 2 game stretch defensively in history.

Can't really argue with that. They shut down two HOF QB's in consecutive weeks at a time when the rules favor passing and offense more than ever.

[Mr. Cynical]

I think, though, if you compare each era's Bills Defense against its contemporaries, this Defense really stands out. And there's not really a glaring weak link--like Jeff Wright--for example. Or Walt Corey.

Can you imagine Dareus instead of Jeff Wright or Schwartz instead of Corey in SB XXV?

OK. Getting angry. I need to stop thinking about this.

Let's not forget Mark "The Great Gazoo" Kelso.

17211

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/The_Great_Gazoo.png

[BuffaloRedleg]

Let's not forget Mark "The Great Gazoo" Kelso.

17211

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/The_Great_Gazoo.png

Hey in terms of concussion protection he was decades before his time.

[Mr. Cynical]

Hey in terms of concussion protection he was decades before his time.

Too bad his 5.2 sec 40 speed and tackling skills were decades after his time. Would have flourished in the 1930s. ;)

Jokes aside, it used to really peeve me off when 9 out of 10 times he was the 3rd or 4th guy in on the tackle (basically draping himself on the pile) because he was so slow. And, he didn't put the hurt on anyone either, so worst of both worlds for a safety (no speed, no power). Really don't get how he was on the team for so long but it's ancient history.

[djjimkelly]

the defenses in the 1998 and 1999 seasons were pretty damn good also. i think 1999 is the best bills D ive seen

[imbondz]

HELL NO!

[Night Train]

The mid 1960's D, when I was a kid, dominated the AFL.

[Meathead]

The mid 1960's D, when I was a kid, dominated the AFL.

back then film wasnt invented yet so heres an artists rendering of what that bills d looked like

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1435/4725908469_fa4d52a672.jpg

[YardRat]

Good point. I always thought if they kept Smerlas for that year that they would have fared better against the Giants, but that's pure speculation. i also thought the loss of Derrick Burroughs hurt the defense in general. He was shaping up to be a great corner when they found his neck abnormality.

Major props for referencing Burroughs...my second favorite Bill of all time, actually, right after Talley. Could've been up there with the best if he hadn't gotten dinged in Houston.

[GvilleBills]

I think, though, if you compare each era's Bills Defense against its contemporaries, this Defense really stands out. And there's not really a glaring weak link--like Jeff Wright--for example. Or Walt Corey.

Can you imagine Dareus instead of Jeff Wright or Schwartz instead of Corey in SB XXV?

OK. Getting angry. I need to stop thinking about this.



Well, there goes my day.
Rage it is...

[stuckincincy]

Personally, I think the '64 and 65 defenses were the best. They talk about the Chefs with Willie Lanier and Buck Buchanon because they won the SB, but our defense was fantastic, holding a Sid Gillman offense to seven points total in TWO title games. Remarkable. I would have loved to see those teams matched up with the Packers and the Browns, but it's just Buffalo's luck to be a year or two short of history.

Here is the 1964 roster:

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/afl/buffalo-bills/roster/1964

[HHURRICANE]

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

The Super Bowl Teams had a defense that was dominant. I mean the QBs didn't want to come to Buffalo in fear of their life. Ask Dan Marino who used to say that he would have nightmares about playing against Bruce Smith.

This defense is very well coached and is impressive but not better.

[Historian]

The 64-65 defenses were way better, although this is the best D line since Sestak, Dunaway, McDole and Day.

Probably just a notch above Smerlas, Williams and White.

I personally think the Bills defense was the reason they lost all four SBs. The rush was consistent, but those secondaries stunk after Burroughs was forced to retire:

Mark Kelso
JD Williams
Thomas Smith

[WagonCircler]

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

The Super Bowl Teams had a defense that was dominant. I mean the QBs didn't want to come to Buffalo in fear of their life. Ask Dan Marino who used to say that he would have nightmares about playing against Bruce Smith.

This defense is very well coached and is impressive but not better.

True, but their run Defense, as evidenced by Ottis Anderson, was an achilles heel. And it stole our Super Bowl parade from us.

The beauty of this current Defense, if you're talking about getting pressure on the QB, is that it comes from everywhere. In the SB years, you had one all time stud in Bruce Smith, then a few pretty good players in Phil Hansen and Leon Seals. Then there was, ummm, Jeff Wright.

The current lineup is deadly from everywhere. I'd much rather have four badasses rushing on the line than one HOF player and a few ok players. Granted, it's apples to oranges 4-3 vs 3-4, and our current LBs are young and may not quite measure up yet to the Talleys and Bennetts, but I think they're very close.

All in all, I'd much rather have had our current Defense in SB XXV.

[casdhf]

Too bad his 5.2 sec 40 speed and tackling skills were decades after his time. Would have flourished in the 1930s. ;)

Jokes aside, it used to really peeve me off when 9 out of 10 times he was the 3rd or 4th guy in on the tackle (basically draping himself on the pile) because he was so slow. And, he didn't put the hurt on anyone either, so worst of both worlds for a safety (no speed, no power). Really don't get how he was on the team for so long but it's ancient history.

You do know he had 30 pics for us, right?

[BuffaloRedleg]

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

The Super Bowl Teams had a defense that was dominant. I mean the QBs didn't want to come to Buffalo in fear of their life. Ask Dan Marino who used to say that he would have nightmares about playing against Bruce Smith.

This defense is very well coached and is impressive but not better.



Here is a snapshot of 1991:

Team Stats and Rankings

<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup> <thead>



Tot Yds & TO


Passing
Rushing


Player
PF
Yds
Ply
Y/P
TO
FL
1stPy
1stD
Cmp
Att
Yds
TD
Int
NY/A
1stD
Att
Yds
TD
Y/A
1stD

</thead> <tbody>






















Team Defense

318
5458
1086
5.0
37
14
31
335
299
536
3414
12
23
6.0
166
519
2044
20
3.9
138




















Rank Defense

19
27


7
14

28

24
21
1
4
16

27
24
24
15


</tbody>

Not included: Sacks- 31, not sure of place in league.


If you compare that to this season:

Team Stats and Rankings



<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup> <thead>



Tot Yds & TO



Passing
Rushing




PF
Yds
Ply
Y/P
TO
FL
1stPy
1stD
Cmp
Att
Yds
TD
Int
NY/A
1stD
Att
Yds
TD
Y/A
1stD

#Dr
Sc%
TO%





</thead> <tbody>






























Tam Defense

254
4388
895
4.9
30
11
39
270
302
492
2941
14
19
5.4
153
354
1447
10
4.1
78
174
27.0
10.9





























Rank Defense

4
5


2
5

8

20
5
1
2
3

9
9
15
14


32
2


</tbody>

Sacks- 49 for 1st Place


This is with it being the modern cheese NFL, the offense giving them miserable field position consistently, and dominating 2 HOF QBs in a row.

So....

Hahahahahahahahahahaha get your facts correct guy and stop relying on nostalgia. QBs don't want to play this team on defense either, it's the offense that brings the team down.

[Mahdi]

I liked the 95 defense with Schultz and Paup.

[OpIv37]

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!

The Super Bowl Teams had a defense that was dominant. I mean the QBs didn't want to come to Buffalo in fear of their life. Ask Dan Marino who used to say that he would have nightmares about playing against Bruce Smith.

This defense is very well coached and is impressive but not better.

Here's the thing about the D's from the SB years: they had support from the O. The O didn't really keep them off the field because of the no-huddle but they racked up so many points that teams were forced to pass more often than not. That makes D a lot easier because they could ignore the run

The ad now is getting zero support from the O. They've had to do it all themselves.

[BuffaloRedleg]

I liked the 95 defense with Schultz and Paup.

Here are the '95 stats to compare with the stats for this year above. I'm not saying stats are everything, but for conversations like this it helps.
Team Stats and Rankings

<colgroup><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col><col></colgroup> <thead>



Tot Yds & TO


Passing
Rushing


Player
PF
Yds
Ply
Y/P
TO
FL
1stPy
1stD
Cmp
Att
Yds
TD
Int
NY/A
1stD
Att
Yds
TD
Y/A
1stD

</thead> <tbody>
Team Offense
350
5117
1059
4.8
26
12
28
300
279
506
3124
24
14
5.8
142
521
1993
10
3.8
130


Team Defense
335
5128
1084
4.7
28
11
14
287
310
582
3502
14
17
5.5
180
453
1626
16
3.6
93


Lg Rank Offense
13
20


8
9

15

25
21
13
8
17

1
6
19
18



Lg Rank Defense
12
13


21
23

5

22
16
1
12
7

20
11
25
7


</tbody>

[cookie G]

I don't know if they are as good as the Bermuda Triangle D of 1980.

They were the no. 1 D in the NFL that year, caused over 40 TO and did that despite a a killer schedule.

They beat the eventual SB champion (Raiders), the previous SB champion (Steelers), the SB runner up (Rams) and, at the time ..the best passing O in NFL history (Fouts threw for over 4700 yards that year).

They gave up 300 yards passing only once and 200 yards only twice and they had 24 Ints.

On the other hand, its pretty cool talking about this D in relation to some of the best D's in the past.

[Zero]

We've had some superb defenses over the years, is this the best?

I think the answer might be yes.

Either way, it's quite an indictment of the modern ESPN highlight loving douche-friendly NFL and the Bills Offense that a team with a defense as unreal as this will most likely not even make the playoffs.


No, not yet. I agree, 2004 defense was more dominant, but it didn't show up in key games, the most notable of which was the unmitigated disaster at the Ralph where our vaunted "D" was unable to shut down the Steelers 2nd and 3rd stringers (SMH)....

This is D isnt as dominant, but it steps up when needed- the best of example of this was this past Sunday. So at least it has that going for them.

All Bills defenses fall short, however, of the 1999/2000 campaign. A very under appreciated defense that is rarely ever mentioned but was on par with the Ravens defense of 2001 in my opinion. Had the Bills gotten past the Titans I have no doubt they would have shut down the Rams in the SB and all the pundits would be giving that team the credit it deserved but has never received since. Coulda, woulda, shoulda....

[Ed]

the defenses in the 1998 and 1999 seasons were pretty damn good also. i think 1999 is the best bills D ive seen

I was going to say the same thing. Just off the top of my head without really examining things, the 99 defense has always stuck out to me as the best I've seen.

[k-oneputt]

I'll take Mario over Hansen or Seals
Ted Washington or Dareus or Wright
Cowart over Conlan
Any Safety in Bills History over Kelso.
Any CB in Bills history over JD Wlliams.

That makes us 3-1 in Super Bowls.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

I liked the 95 defense with Schultz and Paup.

That was a fun one, but in recent memory that 99 defense was something special. Remember our O was just as pathetic in 2000 and that defense was a big reason why we were able to stay competative until they all got hurt in the third quarter of that Tampa Game. I still say more than Homerun Throwback and Reed Wasn't In and the 20004 third string game that that 2000 Tampa Game may be the single worst game in my lifetime and perhaps Bills history. That one loss just changed the culture, set the precedent for our injury bug problems, and Gawd it was awful. Anywho the 99-00 defense was the best of the 1990s. However this D, considering that the game is almost devolved into two hand touch, is pretty good.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

I'll take Mario over Hansen or Seals
Ted Washington or Dareus or Wright
Cowart over Conlan
Any Safety in Bills History over Kelso.
Any CB in Bills history over JD Wlliams.

That makes us 3-1 in Super Bowls.

I generally agree, damn before Cowart got killed by injuries he was the single greatest linebacker to ever wear 56 and that says something considering the other linebacker to play 56 was some guy named Darryl Talley, perhaps you've heard of him :D. Big Ted or Smerlas over Wright. Wright was a nice guy and has been better than some DT/NTs we've had since him as he --despite being undersized -- always managed to pressure the qbs, but against the run well he didn't do too much.

Only exception to this whole thing was Phil Hansen. I would rotate him and Mario, but oh God Dr. Sack was the most inappropriately nicknamed end ever.

[TheBrownBear]

I can't speak to anything before 1986, but I think this current defense, given the current passing-friendly rules, is the second best defense behind the 1999 team. 1999 didn't have much of a pass rush nor turn people over often (this was the great complaint about Cottrell) but they had great run-pluggers, a beast MLB in Cowart and a stingy secondary. They never really gave up any chunk plays. Consider this stat: the '99 defense held their opponent below 300 yards 13 times, including 6 games with 200 yards or less!

2014 defense has only 5 games holding the opponent below 300 yards and they've yet to hold a team to less than 200. But they have a ton more turnovers and sacks. Much more of a bend but don't break defense.

[WagonCircler]

I'll take Mario over Hansen or Seals
Ted Washington or Dareus or Wright
Cowart over Conlan
Any Safety in Bills History over Kelso.
Any CB in Bills history over JD Wlliams.

That makes us 3-1 in Super Bowls.

You're all over the place with mixing eras. It's making my head spin.

[imbondz]

We've had some superb defenses over the years, is this the best?

I think the answer might be yes.

Either way, it's quite an indictment of the modern ESPN highlight loving douche-friendly NFL and the Bills Offense that a team with a defense as unreal as this will most likely not even make the playoffs.


you have to be young and never experienced the early 90's Bills defenses. They were suffocating. Even the '99 team would tear this years D to shreds.

[k-oneputt]

You're all over the place with mixing eras. It's making my head spin.

Maybe so, but Cowart is the most underrated lb this team ever had. If injuries didn't stop him he would have been one of our best.
You can put Spielman in for Bailey/Bentley also.

[BuffaloRedleg]

you have to be young and never experienced the early 90's Bills defenses. They were suffocating. Even the '99 team would tear this years D to shreds.

Nope I remember them thanks.

Apparantly it's you who is misremembering them. Those early 90's defenses were dominant in legend only. They also had the benefit of, you know, a pretty good offense with a pretty good QB if I remember correctly.

The '99 team might be another story. It's close though. Please see above and compare stats for reference.

[WagonCircler]

Maybe so, but Cowart is the most underrated lb this team ever had. If injuries didn't stop him he would have been one of our best.
You can put Spielman in for Bailey/Bentley also.

I agree, on both points, but that's a whole different conversation.

You're putting together an all star team of great Bills defenders. The question in the OP is whether this current unit is better than all previous units.

[k-oneputt]

That '99 defense that carried Flutie was excellent.

[k-oneputt]

I agree, on both points, but that's a whole different conversation.

You're putting together an all star team of great Bills defenders. The question in the OP is whether this current unit is better than all previous units.

Tough to say. As already been stated, different rules and game.
I like this years defense but I wouldn't say it is our best.

[Ingtar33]

never saw the 60's defenses so i can't comment, though i know they were insanely good.

the '88 bills defenses was incredible... as was the mid-late 90's defenses sporting ted washington, bruce smith and bryce paup were incredible as well. I'll say this is the best defense we've had since our last playoff birth. I was never really a fan of the early 2000's defense... though statistically it was dominant, it allowed way too many 3rd down conversions, way too many elite qbs would eat it alive as well; i'd say this is a best defense we've had in 15 years.

[Historian]

I don't know if they are as good as the Bermuda Triangle D of 1980.

They were the no. 1 D in the NFL that year, caused over 40 TO and did that despite a a killer schedule.

They beat the eventual SB champion (Raiders), the previous SB champion (Steelers), the SB runner up (Rams) and, at the time ..the best passing O in NFL history (Fouts threw for over 4700 yards that year).

They gave up 300 yards passing only once and 200 yards only twice and they had 24 Ints.

On the other hand, its pretty cool talking about this D in relation to some of the best D's in the past.

Don't forget that earlier in that season, they defeated San Diego in San Diego.

Their achilles heel was the lowly Colts who beat them twice that year.

[Historian]

the '88 bills defenses was incredible.

That was the year Levy brought in Art Still from the Chiefs. VERY stingy defense, especially when you consider they held Marino's Dolphins to four field goals in two games.