I Can't Get That 4th and 1 Punt Out of My Mind!

[BillsImpossible]

Late 4th quarter, about 8 minutes to go and the Bills need two scores with a 4th and 1 at the 50 yard line of the Raiders.

Orton wanted to go for it. Coach said punt.

That was Marrone's biggest mistake all year. He had a chance to shift the momentum of the game, and didn't take it at the most opportune time.

No balls, just a conservative purse. When the Bills punted, we all knew the game was over.

Sure, put the game in to the hands of your defense that was getting jacked up by a rookie quarterback and couldn't stop the run.

It has dawned upon me that the Bills offense is going nowhere with Marrone as head coach, but I think Whaley is more responsible for the offensive mess than Marrone who has to play with the deck Whaley gives him.

If you get dealt a crap hand, you don't go all in and go for it, you play conservative, and Marrone played conservative all year long.

Whaley did not give Marrone the kind of help the Bills needed up front on offense this year.

The Bills needed help on the offensive line more than they needed Sammy Watkins.

How many times did many of us say, "The game is won and lost in the trenches?"

Competent quarterbacks with good protection make average wide receivers look great.

If EJ Manuel had a good right tackle and 2 good guards via better drafting and free agency, maybe he starts the whole season?

Good teams don't lose to 2-12 opponents in week 16.

The Bills 2014 offense was a complete failure.

The, "Let's give EJ Sammy Watkins Experiment," backfired in a big way.

Something big has to change at the end of the season.

Firing Hackett alone will not suffice, Bills fans will see right through that kind of BS.

[Cali512]

I thought we were down by one score when that happened. bc it was befire the Raiders big drive with like 5 mins

[The Jokeman]

Late 4th quarter, about 8 minutes to go and the Bills need two scores with a 4th and 1 at the 50 yard line of the Raiders.

Orton wanted to go for it. Coach said punt.

That was Marrone's biggest mistake all year. He had a chance to shift the momentum of the game, and didn't take it at the most opportune time.

No balls, just a conservative purse. When the Bills punted, we all knew the game was over.

Sure, put the game in to the hands of your defense that was getting jacked up by a rookie quarterback and couldn't stop the run.

It has dawned upon me that the Bills offense is going nowhere with Marrone as head coach, but I think Whaley is more responsible for the offensive mess than Marrone who has to play with the deck Whaley gives him.

If you get dealt a crap hand, you don't go all in and go for it, you play conservative, and Marrone played conservative all year long.

Whaley did not give Marrone the kind of help the Bills needed up front on offense this year.

The Bills needed help on the offensive line more than they needed Sammy Watkins.

How many times did many of us say, "The game is won and lost in the trenches?"

Competent quarterbacks with good protection make average wide receivers look great.

If EJ Manuel had a good right tackle and 2 good guards via better drafting and free agency, maybe he starts the whole season?

Good teams don't lose to 2-12 opponents in week 16.

The Bills 2014 offense was a complete failure.

The, "Let's give EJ Sammy Watkins Experiment," backfired in a big way.

Something big has to change at the end of the season.

Firing Hackett alone will not suffice, Bills fans will see right through that kind of BS.

The issue is at that point we were down 2 points, if we fail to get that first down than the Raiders only need to get about 10 more yards and Seabass would kick a FG and put is down 5. Instead we punted in hopes to pinning the Raiders back. In fact had we not give up the 3rd and 22 we would have gotten pretty good field position with 5 minutes left. That's assuming the Raiders punter doesn't boom one and/or Thigpen doesn't botch the return and hopefully Orton could sustain a long drive and either give us a TD and/or FG to give us the win. Marrone was playing the percentages and 9 out of 10 times the Raiders don't get 51 yards on a 3rd and 22.

The biggest failure this season was Mike Williams and/or that Robert Woods wasn't able to play in the slot this year and replace Stevie Johnson. It be interesting to see how things would have went had we never traded for Mike and/or traded Stevie away. As Stevie in the slot is definitely better than Hogan. Of course it might have meant we never would have traded for Bryce Brown and who knows how good/bad our running game would have been after the injuries to Freddie/CJ.

[EricStratton]

It was 19-17 at the time

[Historian]

Still,

if you're a team who is going to try to make a dent in the NFL playoffs, you go for it and ram the ball down their throats.

Punting was way too Jauron-like for me.

[Night Train]

Punting was way too Jauron-like for me.

Spot on.

Jauron liked to play scared, then score late in games that were already lost. He would then talk about how they only lost by single digits.

To him, that was a "win " . That and his 2-9 Defense with 16 DB's on the roster.

Couldn't stand him and Marrone is approaching that with his lack of answers in close games. ex: " Where is Hughes, Coach ? " " Why can't you score in the Red Zone ? "
Answer - " Duh, I don't know .."

[Novacane]

With our pussy OL we wouldn't of gotten it. I know it, you know it and Marone knew that. I have a hard time being upset about that one. D should of stopped a 3rd and 22!

[BOBM253]

OK - the Bills could have called on Spiller up the middle who would have cut the play outside for a 4 yard loss or Orton could have thrown a 5 yard fade pass out of bounds or he could have tried a bomb to Watkins with a two yard overthrow. I dunno, I'm with Marrone, lets punt, hope the defense holds, get great field position and let Carpenter try for three. The offense wasn't doing anything that day let alone pick up a 4th and one. What offensive play would you call with any confidence?

[BOBM253]

Still,

if you're a team who is going to try to make a dent in the NFL playoffs, you go for it and ram the ball down their throats.

Punting was way too Jauron-like for me.\\

Ram it down their throats? When have the Bills ever done that to anybody except in practice maybe,,,,,,,

[better days]

Late 4th quarter, about 8 minutes to go and the Bills need two scores with a 4th and 1 at the 50 yard line of the Raiders.

Orton wanted to go for it. Coach said punt.

That was Marrone's biggest mistake all year. He had a chance to shift the momentum of the game, and didn't take it at the most opportune time.

No balls, just a conservative purse. When the Bills punted, we all knew the game was over.

Sure, put the game in to the hands of your defense that was getting jacked up by a rookie quarterback and couldn't stop the run.

It has dawned upon me that the Bills offense is going nowhere with Marrone as head coach, but I think Whaley is more responsible for the offensive mess than Marrone who has to play with the deck Whaley gives him.

If you get dealt a crap hand, you don't go all in and go for it, you play conservative, and Marrone played conservative all year long.

Whaley did not give Marrone the kind of help the Bills needed up front on offense this year.

The Bills needed help on the offensive line more than they needed Sammy Watkins.

How many times did many of us say, "The game is won and lost in the trenches?"

Competent quarterbacks with good protection make average wide receivers look great.

If EJ Manuel had a good right tackle and 2 good guards via better drafting and free agency, maybe he starts the whole season?

Good teams don't lose to 2-12 opponents in week 16.

The Bills 2014 offense was a complete failure.

The, "Let's give EJ Sammy Watkins Experiment," backfired in a big way.

Something big has to change at the end of the season.

Firing Hackett alone will not suffice, Bills fans will see right through that kind of BS.

If you are delt a **** hand & play conservative, you won't lose your shirt, but you will LOSE.

No hope of winning any money at all.

Marrone was not dealt a straight flush by Whaley, but he was NOT dealt a **** hand either.

More like 3 of a kind is the hand Marrone was dealt.

A good card player can win with that hand.

[Historian]

\\

Ram it down their throats? When have the Bills ever done that to anybody except in practice maybe,,,,,,,

The previous week.

[Albany,n.y.]

With the Bills offense 32 out of 32 NFL coaches would have punted in the same spot. No team down less than a FG is going to go for it on 4th down at midfield unless they have spotted something in the films & have prepared for this moment based on the opponent's weakness that was spotted earlier in the week.
This mentality is about as dumb as calling for an onside kick on every kickoff.

[gebobs]

With our pussy OL we wouldn't of gotten it. I know it, you know it and Marone knew that. I have a hard time being upset about that one. D should of stopped a 3rd and 22!

San Diego knows how to get one yard every time easy. Line two guys up wide on one side. Throw the ball to the outside receiver immediately after the snap while the inside guy lays down a block. So long as the receiver is not past the LOS (or maybe it's 1 yard past), it's completely legal and almost impossible difficult to defense. One yard easy peasy.

[coastal]

You can't get it out of your mind?

Really?

google "Star Wars cartoon porn".

You're welcome.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

It was the correct call. My beef was on that 3rd down, they elected to max protect and wound up with a more diffcult throw for Orton - across the body to his left flank. Almost the same play as Oton's last throw of the Packers game.

There are so many thigs wrong with that play. #1 no running threat in the middle at all; it's 1 yard! and everyone already know it's not going to be a run. #2 Orton's at best throws to the middle, no crossing route, and other options.

[jamze132]

Marrone made the decision to punt based soley on the ineptitude of the O-line. How many times have we needed a 3rd and 1 and were stuffed this year?

[gebobs]

Marrone made the decision to punt based soley on the ineptitude of the O-line. How many times have we needed a 3rd and 1 and were stuffed this year?

A good coach would get creative. Marrone hasn't run anything even approaching creative all year.

[Beebe]

We had 13 yards rushing the whole game getting 1 yard on 4th and 1 was going to be tough. The key point to the game was on 3rd and 22 and they get it.

[stuckincincy]

TMQ chimes in'''

..."Sour Plays Of The Week: Trailing 19-17 at Oakland, the Bills took possession early in the fourth quarter. The situation was must-win for Buffalo: defeat meant elimination and extension of the team's league-worst playoff drought. Throughout the contest Buffalo had been using hyper-conservative short passes, including a super-short pass on third-and-10, the receiver not even attempting to run his route to the line-to-gain: a punt followed. This time the Bills go short pass, short pass, short pass, short pass, rush for 3 yards, short pass, short pass. Now it's third-and-1 at midfield. No high school coach -- no middle-school coach -- would call yet another short pass. Short pass to a receiver who was behind the line of scrimmage, swatted down by a linebacker.

That makes it fourth-and-1 at midfield, 8:22 remaining, Bills facing elimination. That cannot be the kicking unit! Boom goes the punt. Not only did Bills coach Doug Marrone passively surrender the ball on fourth-and-1 with the playoffs on the line, by his decision he communicated to his team that he was playing not to lose rather than playing to win. Oakland went the other way for a touchdown, and Buffalo's goose was cooked. A cooked goose stuffed with sour Warheads."...


http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/TMQWeekSixtenn141223/nfl-team-loser-move-fans-tuesday-morning-quarterback

[Mr. Pink]

Just goes back to the fact I cannot understand how every other team in the league can and will call a QB sneak on 3rd and 1 or 2 or 4th and 1 or 2 and can pick them up...teams even with top tier franchise QBs like Brady and Brees for that matter...yet it's a play that's obviously not even in the Bills playbook.

Derek Carr ran it Sunday and shockingly it worked...just like pretty much anytime that play is called.

[OLDSRIP]

Marrone made the decision to punt based soley on the ineptitude of the O-line. How many times have we needed a 3rd and 1 and were stuffed this year?

Which brings scheme back up.

If you can't run with everyone stacked up at the line, you spread the formation out and let Fred find the hole.
They couldn't run against stacked D in pre season and nothing changed all season.

pretty obvious if you ask me.

[better days]

Which brings scheme back up.

If you can't run with everyone stacked up at the line, you spread the formation out and let Fred find the hole.
They couldn't run against stacked D in pre season and nothing changed all season.

pretty obvious if you ask me.

That is what Chan used to do. Run out of the spread formation & in shotgun as well.

Old man Chan was much more creative than young Hackett.

[HHURRICANE]

With our pussy OL we wouldn't of gotten it. I know it, you know it and Marone knew that. I have a hard time being upset about that one. D should of stopped a 3rd and 22!

Hackett would have run Spiller up the middle.

[Typ0]

Watching these games I feel like Maroone is coaching from a script dictated by down and distance, location on the field and time on the clock. I don't think I have ever ever gotten a sense that he knew what was happening on the field and on many occasions gotten the impression he has no idea what's happening on the field. He does a good job preparing the team to play but is not up to the task himself. He needs to go. If he doesn't we are just spinning out wheels again. We need a guy who knows how to manage a game and prepares the team well.

[jamze132]

A good coach would get creative. Marrone hasn't run anything even approaching creative all year.

How can you be creative when your O-line can't master the basics?

[better days]

How can you be creative when your O-line can't master the basics?

It is not the OL, it is the scheme & playcalling.

NO RB could pick up any yds running into a WALL.

[GvilleBills]

Marrone sucks, and the OL sucks. Got it.

Same story all year. And for far too long.
I remember arguing with people who thought the Bills had a strong OL many times last few years.
Stats guys I guess.
Anyone who watches Buffalo knows they haven't imposed their will in a short yardage situation in over a decade.



The Bills need Marrone's to sack up, QB help and OL line help, badly. They're likely in the position to only REALLY improve improve one of those.

I'm a Whaley guy. But if he's not all in on the OL this off season, I can't defend him anymore.

- - - Updated - - -


Hackett would have run Spiller up the middle.

Lol. Too damn true...

[GvilleBills]

Watching these games I feel like Maroone is coaching from a script dictated by down and distance, location on the field and time on the clock. I don't think I have ever ever gotten a sense that he knew what was happening on the field and on many occasions gotten the impression he has no idea what's happening on the field. He does a good job preparing the team to play but is not up to the task himself. He needs to go. If he doesn't we are just spinning out wheels again. We need a guy who knows how to manage a game and prepares the team well.

There's truth to this. They'll come out and look good on the first drive (scripted plays?) And look like hot garbage in the flow of the game.

[GvilleBills]

It is not the OL, it is the scheme & playcalling.

NO RB could pick up any yds running into a WALL.

Some of that is on the RB tho, BD. Run to daylight.

[pmoon6]

Still,

if you're a team who is going to try to make a dent in the NFL playoffs, you go for it and ram the ball down their throats.

Punting was way too Jauron-like for me.I get your point, but if we go for it and miss, many fans would have **** a brick and called for Marrones' head anyway.

I didn't mind punting and letting a very good defense get the ball back.

[better days]

Some of that is on the RB tho, BD. Run to daylight.

Some of that is on the RB & some is on the OL.

But the vast majority of blame belongs to the Coaching/playcalling/scheme.

[pmoon6]

Some of that is on the RB & some is on the OL.

But the vast majority of blame belongs to the Coaching/playcalling/scheme.What scheme do you suggest?

[ICRockets]

What scheme do you suggest?

Even something simple like a west coast offense would suffice. Nate Hackett's offense doesn't seem to have any kind of philosophy behind it. It's just....there. We have no identity on that side of the ball.

[Albany,n.y.]

That is what Chan used to do. Run out of the spread formation & in shotgun as well.

Old man Chan was much more creative than young Hackett.

Chan punted from the 34 yard line, he was worse than any of you Chan revisionists remember.
PS the Bills lost the game Chan punted from the 34: http://nickelcitybills.com/2013/01/23/when-to-go-kick-or-punt/

[pmoon6]

Even something simple like a west coast offense would suffice. Nate Hackett's offense doesn't seem to have any kind of philosophy behind it. It's just....there. We have no identity on that side of the ball.Almost every offense today is version of the West Coast, including Hacketts. If you have a mobile QB, there is the option, but you are seeing that less and less.

Our offensive problems are a result of not being able to run the ball effectively. You can blame the O-line or the injuries to some extent, but teams are playing run first with us and Hackett doesn't try to adapt. Either because he can't or won't given the personel. Anyway, he needs to go. Marrone has done a decent job, certainly not anything fireable IMO.

[better days]

What scheme do you suggest?

Well, for one thing I don't think it is a good idea to have this line of BIG maulers zone blocking.

Zone blocking is better suited for a smaller athletic OL.

[better days]

Chan punted from the 34 yard line, he was worse than any of you Chan revisionists remember.
PS the Bills lost the game Chan punted from the 34: http://nickelcitybills.com/2013/01/23/when-to-go-kick-or-punt/

Chan may not be a GOOD HC, but he is a very good OC.

I would take him back as OC in a heartbeat.

[Albany,n.y.]

Chan may not be a GOOD HC, but he is a very good OC.

I would take him back as OC in a heartbeat.

He was such a great OC, he got fired in preseason by KC as OC. Chan's where he belongs-far away from the NFL, coaching his grandkids.

[better days]

He was such a great OC, he got fired in preseason by KC as OC. Chan's where he belongs-far away from the NFL, coaching his grandkids.

LMAO. Like Todd Haley knows what he is doing.

Chan was OC for Pittsburgh for two years & the Steelers won the division both years.

Chan was HC for Dallas for two years & the Cowboys made the playoffs both years Chan was HC.

[better days]

And I might add, if Haley did not fire Chan, he might have lasted a little longer in KC himself.

And if Chan was OC of the Bills the last two years, I think the Bills would have made the playoffs this year instead of going 8-8.

[MattyNH]

Teams punt with 3 minutes left in the same situation. Conventional wisdom says you rely on the defense to get a stop rather than allowing one or 2 first downs to force you to have to score a TD. Give up a 3rd and 22 is the big sin here. The pass rush was not there on that play.