Relationship between Marrone and Whaley "Beyond repair"

[WagonCircler]

PEGULAS HAVE DECISONS TO MAKE SOON

http://www.buffalonews.com/columns/bucky-gleason/pegulas-have-decisions-to-make-soon-20141225

Buffalo fans who hoped Terry and Kim Pegula learned their lesson after purchasing the Sabres shouldn’t be surprised if they took their time before making any major changes with the Bills. Their refusal to address obvious needs with the hockey team led to its inevitable downfall.

The Pegulas’ first order of business will be deciding whether to keep General Manager Doug Whaley and coach Doug Marrone. Apparently, tension mounted between the two during the season. Some inside the organization believe that their working relationship is beyond repair.

If that’s the case, the Pegulas need to hire an outside consultant with experience – Bill Polian? – to help them. Their record with the Sabres is enough to make anyone nervous about them making front-office decisions with the Bills. Russ Brandon could make the call, but he hired Whaley and Marrone.

Marrone raised eyebrows when he made it clear that he made the decision to change quarterbacks without checking with Whaley. He ripped the offensive line after the loss to the Raiders. Intentional or not, it sounded like a shot at the GM for not assembling better offensive personnel.

The Bills have missed the playoffs for 15 straight seasons. The game Sunday against the Patriots means little to either team. It would make sense for EJ Manuel to take over the offense against the Patriots for evaluation purposes. Marrone is staying with Orton with the idea he gives the Bills a better chance to win.

Win what?

It said little about Manuel, less about Whaley. He was part of the decision to draft Manuel in the first round. He ultimately was responsible for giving up a first-round pick for Sammy Watkins with the idea the rookie receiver would solve Manuel’s problems. Meanwhile, other receivers were more productive.

We’ll see how it shakes out, but don’t be shocked if Marrone stays and Whaley takes the fall. Marrone made his mistakes, but he did more to help his case than Whaley did. The Bills had no business winning eight games with their quarterbacks and this offensive line.

More...

I like it. In a perfect world, they both go, but I'm definitely OK with this.

[Later]

Whaley has been here since early 2010, and IMO has shown absolutely no reason that he should stay. I won't miss him a bit.

[feldspar]

Before Pegula does anything, he needs to hire an outside consultant to evaluate the situation at One Bills Drive.

That's it. He has no experience in football himself and so is not in the position to go about head-hunting in informed fashion.

[cookie G]

We’ll see how it shakes out, but don’t be shocked if Marrone stays and Whaley takes the fall. Marrone made his mistakes, but he did more to help his case than Whaley did. The Bills had no business winning eight games with their quarterbacks and this offensive line.

I don't know how Marrone helped his case more than Whaley.

He was brought in as an offensive minded coach and despite some upgrades (especially at WR), the offense is worse than what he inherited. In many ways, much worse. They won 8 games despite the offense, not because of it.

I don't know how much credit he gets for the defense, outside of his DC hires. Maybe that's enough to keep him, maybe not.

If he's going to stick with the same OC out of loyalty, he should go. As Op said in the past...there's only going to be so much of a window open with the defense playing as it is to make a playoff run. This is no time for waiting around to hope the light comes on for the OC, or that he eventually learns how to game plan for a specific opponent, make in game adjustments, etc.

Before I make any changes, I'd want to talk to the team leaders first. The FJ's, the KW's, the Eric Woods, etc. and get a gauge on how they feel about Marrone. this would be especially from the defensive side. I'd want to know how much of an impact they felt on helping the D improve.

[Historian]

I think Whaley has potential, but he's way too young and inexperienced to be sorting out the dysfunctional mess at One Bills Drive.

And if the rumors about their rift, (which started in camp) are true, one of two things needs to happen:

1. Someone needs to sit both of them down, and make them play nice in the sandbox with the other.

Or,

2. One needs to go. Whichever hurts the team less.

How's Whaley's relationship with Schwartz?

[feldspar]

Check out exactly how the Bills roster was assembled. This is a very good resource.

http://www.rosterresource.com/nfl-buffalo-bills-how-assembled-chart/

[Novacane]

If only one goes my choice would be Marone. I'd prefer they both go.

[Mr. Pink]

If this is true, one of the two needs to go.

It's hard to say which...Whaley has acquired some nice talent on the D and the coaching staff has used them properly.

Whaley has acquired some steaming garbage on the O and the coaching staff on that side of the ball is also steaming garbage.

[swiper]

When I started reading the article I didn't see where it was going. Then I thought to myself, "what happens if they keep Marrone and dump Whaley?"

That's where they went.

[swiper]

If this is true, one of the two needs to go.

It's hard to say which...Whaley has acquired some nice talent on the D and the coaching staff has used them properly.

Whaley has acquired some steaming garbage on the O and the coaching staff on that side of the ball is also steaming garbage.

And Marrone has made some hiddeous in-game time use decisions and allowed some horrid play calling.

But he has brought the Bills up to 8 wins in just two years - something they haven't seen in a long while.

[Ingtar33]

no gm worth a hill of beans would come in to a situation where he can't pick his coach.

[feldspar]

no gm worth a hill of beans would come in to a situation where he can't pick his coach.

It does happen.

[Ingtar33]

It does happen.

typically with a junior FA guy who no one heard of who is grasping at that brass ring because he knows he'll be a scout or penny pincher the rest of his life if he doesn't take a shot at it. it doesn't happen with quality or proven FA types.

[WagonCircler]

no gm worth a hill of beans would come in to a situation where he can't pick his coach.

I agree. That's why I think they both go.

[sudzy]

I would not shed a tear if both were gone next year. I'm interested to see how committed Pegula is to making this team into a winner and how much he'd open his wallet to get a good GM and HC in here.

[WagonCircler]

I think this whole bickering beyond repair is the perfect out for Pegula.

Without it, he might be inclined to go for "continuity" or reward "progress". But when there's serious infighting, especially involving to people of negligible to mediocre talent, it reflects poorly on both of them, and makes blowing the thing up an easy call.

There's a fairly sold personnel base, and an accomplished, skilled new GM could build on it and choose his now Head Coach.

[YardRat]

If it comes down to only keeping one or the other, Whaley wins and it's not even close.

[swiper]

If it comes down to only keeping one or the other, Whaley wins and it's not even close.

Whaley blew it drafting Manuel, Kuoandijo and Richardson. He gave too much to get Watkins (when he didn't have a QB). The Chris Williams move at guard is baffling.

Did he make good moves? Sure. Robert Woods & Kiko Alanso were great picks. But I don't see how it's not even close.

[YardRat]

Whaley blew it drafting Manuel, Kuoandijo and Richardson. He gave too much to get Watkins (when he didn't have a QB). The Chris Williams move at guard is baffling.

Did he make good moves? Sure. Robert Woods & Kiko Alanso were great picks. But I don't see how it's not even close.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree a little bit, at this point...EJ certainly is frustrating, but despite the odds he still may pan out to a certain point, and it's way too early to pass judgement on Richardson and KuJo...same with Watkins. The left side of the line actually was doing OK prior to CW getting hurt...he may not be a name like Iupati, but he was performing OK and at least equal to Legursky last season.

It wasn't Whaley's call to start Pears at RG and bench Urbik, but it might've been Marrone's. It wasn't Whaley's call to fail to activate a proven, red zone WR almost the entire season, but it might've been Marrone's. It wasn't Whaley's call to bring in a diaper-rashed OC, but it was Marrone's.

Marrone may have the crutch of 'We don't have a QB or oline worth a damn' to try to prop him (and Hackett and Morris) up for another season, but Whaley definitely has 'Look what real coaching can do with the players I bring in' when he points to the defense.

[The Jokeman]

Whaley blew it drafting Manuel, Kuoandijo and Richardson. He gave too much to get Watkins (when he didn't have a QB). The Chris Williams move at guard is baffling.

Did he make good moves? Sure. Robert Woods & Kiko Alanso were great picks. But I don't see how it's not even close.

For blowing it on Manuel, Kujo and Richardson I give you Woods, Kiko (added because our GM traded down to get Manuel), Preston Brown, trading for Hughes and signing guys like Carpenter, Spikes/Rivers, Corey Graham. Toss in late additions like Colton Schmidt, Gray and Thigpen. If you can't see that our roster is better because of Whaley's work you failed to understand football. He didn't do it alone either her did it with the help of Kelvin Fisher (former Steelers scout that Whaley named Director of College scouting). Look back at the last decade of our drafts and you'll see very few of our picks ended up staying in Buffalo (or the league) long yet in the last few drafts we've found a few guys to keep around.

[Meathead]

i think they both stay but if its just one id take the napster all day over marrone. they are likely to lose schwartz soon anyway, if youve got to pick one of the children to love more it should be the guy who used to have hair like buckwheat

[The Jokeman]

i think they both stay but if its just one id take the napster all day over marrone. they are likely to lose schwartz soon anyway, if youve got to pick one of the children to love more it should be the guy who used to have hair like buckwheat

I think Schwartz sticks this offseason as he might not get full credit since our D-line is so talented. As we weren't a playoff team and not sure that many teams in need of a HC will want an defensive minded guy and if so bigger names like Rex Ryan might be out there. That said we could lose him in 2016 if the D repeats it's success from this season or he might think he could replace Marrone himself in 2016 if for some reason we improve the offense talent this offseason and fail to make the playoffs again.

[GvilleBills]

Whaley has made a few mistakes, no doubt about it. But he has made this roster better, on the whole, than its been for quite some time. He's constantly making moves to improve the team. He was advertised as a young, aggressive up and comer. That's what he has been.


Marrone was reported as a fiery, aggressive offensive thinker with a keen understanding of the OL as a former player. He has been none of these things.
-disgustingly conservative
-same stupid look on his face as he's frozen in a state of perpetual ineffectiveness
-Produced one of the worst OL ever. Again, his specialty. He should be able to make chicken salad out of chicken ****. Not this guy...
-Urbik and Mike Williams?!?! Don't get in the legendary Marrone doghouse, for whatever perceived slight. You can't get out, even if you could potentially help the team. He'll hold you accountable, unless you are...
-Nate Hackett
-there's more, but they're with Jerry Hughes and I had no idea he wasn't on the field.

[Novacane]

It does happen.

That's why he said no GM worth a hill of beans!

[Mahdi]

If this is true, one of the two needs to go.

It's hard to say which...Whaley has acquired some nice talent on the D and the coaching staff has used them properly.

Whaley has acquired some steaming garbage on the O and the coaching staff on that side of the ball is also steaming garbage.

Whaley has done nothing on D except for Kiko.

All the DL plus the safeties and CBs as well as Bradham were all before he was GM.

In fact I believe Kiko might have even been a Buddy Nix pick as well as that was his last draft I think?

[Novacane]

Whaley has done nothing on D except for Kiko.

All the DL plus the safeties and CBs as well as Bradham were all before he was GM.

In fact I believe Kiko might have even been a Buddy Nix pick as well as that was his last draft I think?

Jerry Hughes, Preston Brown. If Whaley doesn't get credit for Kiko then he shouldn't get any blame for Manuel.

[The Jokeman]

Jerry Hughes, Preston Brown. If Whaley doesn't get credit for Kiko then he shouldn't get any blame for Manuel.

He also re-signed McKelvin and Aaron Williams. Toss in UFA he signed CB Corey Graham, Spikes and Rivers oh and Lawson. It's easy to forget some of these moves but they were all done by Whaley.

[YardRat]

Whaley has done nothing on D except for Kiko.

All the DL plus the safeties and CBs as well as Bradham were all before he was GM.

In fact I believe Kiko might have even been a Buddy Nix pick as well as that was his last draft I think?

Hughes, Lawson, Wynn, Charles, Bryant, Brown, Rivers, Kiko, Johnson, Powell, Dean, Spikes, Graham, Cockrell, Duke, Meeks, Rambo, re-signing AW and McKelvin were all done on Whaley's watch.

Even if he wasn't involved in MW, KW, Dareus, Bradham, Gilmore, Searcy and originally drafting AW the talent level on the defense, front to back, is far better in 2014 than it was in 2012.

[WagonCircler]

For the first time in Bills history, we have an owner willing to spend top dollar on non-player personnel.

Ralph meeting with Shanahan or Cowher, if those meeting even really happened, were smoke and mirrors. Charades. If anything, the sticker shock made Ralph even more inclined to do things on the cheap.

Ask yourself honestly--'If I could choose the best GM and HC money can buy, would I choose Doug Whaley and Doug Marrone?'

If you said yes, you're beyond help.

[BillsImpossible]

For the first time in Bills history, we have an owner willing to spend top dollar on non-player personnel.

Ralph meeting with Shanahan or Cowher, if those meeting even really happened, were smoke and mirrors. Charades. If anything, the sticker shock made Ralph even more inclined to do things on the cheap.

Ask yourself honestly--'If I could choose the best GM and HC money can buy, would I choose Doug Whaley and Doug Marrone?'

If you said yes, you're beyond help.

Awesome post, WagonCircler!

[Mace]

Ralph meeting with Shanahan or Cowher, if those meeting even really happened, were smoke and mirrors. Charades. If anything, the sticker shock made Ralph even more inclined to do things on the cheap.

Makes me furious every time I read this bounce around again. Shanahan came around as a courtesy, already had everything all set up for Washington with Bruce Allen, and little Shanny in tow. Cowher's wife was freaking DYING and he had better freaking things to do, and in fact recommended Gailey.

[kingJofNYC]

Lets see how "willing" Pegula is, certainly wasnt willing with the Sabres. Dude reached the point of no return before he cleaned house. It's not about the money, it's about good decision making. I'm not giving him any credit until he actually ****ing does something.

[YardRat]

For the first time in Bills history, we have an owner willing to spend top dollar on non-player personnel.

Ralph meeting with Shanahan or Cowher, if those meeting even really happened, were smoke and mirrors. Charades. If anything, the sticker shock made Ralph even more inclined to do things on the cheap.

Ask yourself honestly--'If I could choose the best GM and HC money can buy, would I choose Doug Whaley and Doug Marrone?'

If you said yes, you're beyond help.

Where does this stuff come from?

Ask yourself honestly--'If I could choose the best GM and HC money can buy, would I choose Tim Murray and Ted Nolan?'

[Mace]

I think this whole bickering beyond repair is the perfect out for Pegula.

Without it, he might be inclined to go for "continuity" or reward "progress". But when there's serious infighting, especially involving to people of negligible to mediocre talent, it reflects poorly on both of them, and makes blowing the thing up an easy call.

There's a fairly sold personnel base, and an accomplished, skilled new GM could build on it and choose his now Head Coach.

Pegula's first week as owner, he should have hired the consultant. He's already going for conservative continuity here. They'll get another year, with some consultant (finally) driven tweaks I think. If Whaley goes, they both need to. If Marrone goes and Whaley stays, they'd better have a dazzling offseason (they won't).

I think I'll feel better about them staying if they beat New England in Gillette, even if they beat scrubs. If they run for the bus, and I think they all started running for the bus while fighting for a playoff spot in Oakland, fire them both in New England, then hire a consultant and fire him for not being hired quick enough.

Beyond that, I'm feeling apathetic.

[BillsImpossible]

I think Whaley has potential, but he's way too young and inexperienced to be sorting out the dysfunctional mess at One Bills Drive.

And if the rumors about their rift, (which started in camp) are true, one of two things needs to happen:

1. Someone needs to sit both of them down, and make them play nice in the sandbox with the other.

Or,

2. One needs to go. Whichever hurts the team less.

How's Whaley's relationship with Schwartz?

I don't thinks it's very good based on some television footage I saw of Whaley giving high fives and patting players on the back after a home game win, until Schwartz walked by and gave Whaley the evil eye. No high five, no handshake, not even a nod or smile. The Bills won, you would think the GM would at least extend his hand to Schwartz but he didn't.

Whaley didn't hire Marrone or Schwartz. Marrone hired Schwartz.

Whaley likes the players he drafted, but he doesn't like the coaches he didn't choose.

[Novacane]

I think Pegula already has a football consultant that is advising him on what to do. If he hasn't he should of saved the 1.4 bil and stuck to gas wells.

[kingJofNYC]

I think Pegula already has a football consultant that is advising him on what to do. If he hasn't he should of saved the 1.4 bil and stuck to gas wells.

This is in all likelihood true, or god help us if he hasn't. He must have an inner circle advising him.

Its also interesting to see this story come up again, media being fed stories. We haven't heard about this "feud" since Laconforra reported the infamous shouting match during practice back in September. Think it was after the Orton signing.

[Mace]

I think Pegula already has a football consultant that is advising him on what to do. If he hasn't he should of saved the 1.4 bil and stuck to gas wells.

Well yeah, his neighbors, like the rest of us.

But if he'd have hired anyone else no way it could have stayed quiet.

[BillsImpossible]

This is in all likelihood true, or god help us if he hasn't. He must have an inner circle advising him.

Its also interesting to see this story come up again, media being fed stories. We haven't heard about this "feud" since Laconforra reported the infamous shouting match during practice back in September. Think it was after the Orton signing.

The verbal *****ing match on the sidelines happened before Orton was signed.

Carson Palmer's brother was on the roster as Doug Whaley's great backup QB idea, and the coaches let management know their inner feelings about how they felt.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Jesus. Some of you are really acting like little girls. When pegula bought he team everybody was 'rah rah.' He's barely owned the team for 3 months and some of the same people have already lumped him as an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing cause nothing has happened yet based on zero facts! Put a tampon in it people.

[Mace]

Jesus. Some of you are really acting like little girls. When pegula bought he team everybody was 'rah rah.' He's barely owned the team for 3 months and some of the same people have already lumped him as an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing cause nothing has happened yet based on zero facts! Put a tampon in it people.

This time of year after another iffy season, little girls are way tougher than I am and I feel no shame in admitting it.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

This time of year after another iffy season, little girls are way tougher than I am and I feel no shame in admitting it.

At least you admit it. I can respect that.

[BillsImpossible]

Marrone knew he had EJ Manuel to work with coming in to the season. All he wanted was a little help up front and he didn't get it.

The Bills 2014 2nd round pick, Cyrus Kouandjio didn't start a single game. 5th rounder, Cyril Richardson got eaten alive. 7th rounder, Seantrel Henderson had a very rough rookie year. Watching Henderson play against the Raiders defense was disturbing.

Signing Chris Williams to a contract was a horrible decision by Whaley.

No offense, all defense and a first round draft pick that wasn't necessary.

If Whaley drafted 3 hogs in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds of the 2014 draft, the Bills might be playing for something on Sunday.

[djjimkelly]

Check out exactly how the Bills roster was assembled. This is a very good resource.

http://www.rosterresource.com/nfl-buffalo-bills-how-assembled-chart/

whaleys finger prints all over the roster.

we are good because of the talent on D. whaley is responsible for most of this defence and most of the good parts on O


i dont think its a hard decision

marrone should be shown the door fast. not sure this is how it will play out. but if i owned the team id keep whaley and fire the offensive guru

[BertSquirtgum]

For the first time in Bills history, we have an owner willing to spend top dollar on non-player personnel.

Ralph meeting with Shanahan or Cowher, if those meeting even really happened, were smoke and mirrors. Charades. If anything, the sticker shock made Ralph even more inclined to do things on the cheap.

Ask yourself honestly--'If I could choose the best GM and HC money can buy, would I choose Doug Whaley and Doug Marrone?'

If you said yes, you're beyond help.

Who said the Pegulas are willing to do that?

[WagonCircler]

Where does this stuff come from?

Ask yourself honestly--'If I could choose the best GM and HC money can buy, would I choose Tim Murray and Ted Nolan?'


Tim Murray and Ted Nolan are perfect for the Sabres right now. Murray is a patient, no-nonsense poker player who is building the foundation for a powerhouse, and he won't be deterred from his mission, despite the obvious temptation.

Nolan is beloved by many Sabres fans and was brought in to put out an entertaining product, albeit losing, but one that fans can forgive, given the clear plan to assemble an arsenal of young talent.

I wouldn't trade them for anybody right now. I think the plan is shaping up nicely.

The Bills, on the other hand, are in a much better situation than the Sabres were when Pegula took over.

Whaley's boneheaded moves are unforgivable. And Marrone is clearly overmatched against better NFL Head Coaches. Granted, the Dougs have done decent things, but if you can improve on "decent" you owe it to your fan base to do so (as Mr. Pegula has said).

I believe Pegula is a man of his word and has proven it. The Sabres are a work in progress, but it's a damn good plan.

[BillsImpossible]

whaleys finger prints all over the roster.

we are good because of the talent on D. whaley is responsible for most of this defence and most of the good parts on O

Most of the good parts on O?

Robert Woods and who else besides Dan Carpenter?

Whaley's good on the defensive side of the ball. There is no O.

[Novacane]

Well yeah, his neighbors, like the rest of us.

But if he'd have hired anyone else no way it could have stayed quiet.


Which is the one group that bid for the Bills that we heard nothing from during the process?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

If I was choosing between the two, I'm taking Whaley without a doubt. I actually liked his moves with a few exceptions (losing Byrd, dealing Johnson, etc) but I have no such love for Marrone's coaching job.

[djjimkelly]

Most of the good parts on O?

Robert Woods and who else besides Dan Carpenter?

Whaley's good on the defensive side of the ball. There is no O.

all the wrs who i dont have issue with they dont have a good qb throwing to him. i dont have an issue with cordy glenn , sentrel hendserson is a fine rook , all during whaleys time here

[Novacane]

They either both go, neither goes, or Marone goes. As already mentioned no GM worth having is going to come here if he's not allowed to hire his own coach.

If Pegula thinks they both deserve to come back he needs to get them to put differences aside and work together.

[YardRat]

If I was choosing between the two, I'm taking Whaley without a doubt. I actually liked his moves with a few exceptions (losing Byrd, dealing Johnson, etc) but I have no such love for Marrone's coaching job.

I was going to thank this post, and then you had to mention Byrd. Probably one of the better moves Whaley made by not paying him IMO. Levitre is likely to be cut by the Titans this off-season, and may be done after one more season of trying to hang on. Byrd will probably suffer the same fate after next season.

[coastal]

Blowing things up at this point would not be wise.

What's needed is true leadership to build upon what has already been put into place.

the Bills don't need Whaley and Marrone to like each other.

they need them to do their jobs and work together.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I was going to thank this post, and then you had to mention Byrd. Probably one of the better moves Whaley made by not paying him IMO. Levitre is likely to be cut by the Titans this off-season, and may be done after one more season of trying to hang on. Byrd will probably suffer the same fate after next season.

Levitre wasn't Whaley's decision, but given our guard situation I have a hard time agreeing it was a good move. He hasn't played well in Tennessee, but who has? Their coaching isn't any better than ours, and the Mike Williams situation alone should show how a productive player can be a bad fit on a different team.

[BertSquirtgum]

Levitre wasn't Whaley's decision, but given our guard situation I have a hard time agreeing it was a good move. He hasn't played well in Tennessee, but who has? Their coaching isn't any better than ours, and the Mike Williams situation alone should show how a productive player can be a bad fit on a different team.

or it can show what a stubborn moron Marrone is.

[kingJofNYC]

The verbal *****ing match on the sidelines happened before Orton was signed.

Carson Palmer's brother was on the roster as Doug Whaley's great backup QB idea, and the coaches let management know their inner feelings about how they felt.

All I remember is that the article/story was posted after we signed Orton, now that doesn't mean the shouting match took place after, could have been the week before, but all I remember is the article going live the first week of September, a few days after the Orton signing. Orton was signed on the 29th of August, LaConfora posted his story on the 5th of September. Marrone was shouting at Jim Monos, the Saints guy Marrone & Co brought in, Marrone specifically said he recommended him too.

Honestly, I just find it fascinating how we hear about this rift right at the end of the season. We heard about the altercation week 1, and now in week 17, but nothing during the season. Everyone is jostling for position, trying to save their asses, media is their mouthpiece.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

or it can show what a stubborn moron Marrone is.

I agree totally, and I've started threads on the subject.

[Mahdi]

Jerry Hughes, Preston Brown. If Whaley doesn't get credit for Kiko then he shouldn't get any blame for Manuel.

We all know Nix drafted Manuel. Hughes was a great trade obviously but was a shot in the dark.

- - - Updated - - -


Jerry Hughes, Preston Brown. If Whaley doesn't get credit for Kiko then he shouldn't get any blame for Manuel.

We all know Nix drafted Manuel. Hughes was a great trade obviously but was a shot in the dark.

[Mahdi]

Hughes, Lawson, Wynn, Charles, Bryant, Brown, Rivers, Kiko, Johnson, Powell, Dean, Spikes, Graham, Cockrell, Duke, Meeks, Rambo, re-signing AW and McKelvin were all done on Whaley's watch.

Even if he wasn't involved in MW, KW, Dareus, Bradham, Gilmore, Searcy and originally drafting AW the talent level on the defense, front to back, is far better in 2014 than it was in 2012.

Yes because of Nix.

[BertSquirtgum]

Yes because of Nix.

Soooo are you saying the assistant gm and director of player personnel had no input in bringing these players in? Come back to reality.

[Mahdi]

whaleys finger prints all over the roster.

we are good because of the talent on D. whaley is responsible for most of this defence and most of the good parts on O


i dont think its a hard decision

marrone should be shown the door fast. not sure this is how it will play out. but if i owned the team id keep whaley and fire the offensive guru

If Marrone gets a new OC I would rather keep him and get a new GM. Whaley is only living off the groceries Nix provided.

[BertSquirtgum]

If Marrone gets a new OC I would rather keep him and get a new GM. Whaley is only living off the groceries Nix provided.

No

[Dr. Who]

Tim Murray and Ted Nolan are perfect for the Sabres right now. Murray is a patient, no-nonsense poker player who is building the foundation for a powerhouse, and he won't be deterred from his mission, despite the obvious temptation.

Nolan is beloved by many Sabres fans and was brought in to put out an entertaining product, albeit losing, but one that fans can forgive, given the clear plan to assemble an arsenal of young talent.

I wouldn't trade them for anybody right now. I think the plan is shaping up nicely.

The Bills, on the other hand, are in a much better situation than the Sabres were when Pegula took over.

Whaley's boneheaded moves are unforgivable. And Marrone is clearly overmatched against better NFL Head Coaches. Granted, the Dougs have done decent things, but if you can improve on "decent" you owe it to your fan base to do so (as Mr. Pegula has said).

I believe Pegula is a man of his word and has proven it. The Sabres are a work in progress, but it's a damn good plan.

I'm concerned that the Sabres are winning too many games this season. They need to keep their eyes on the Oilers. Only certain morons on this board are happy when the Sabres win this season.

As for the Bills, we have disagreements. Maybe you're right; you're certainly welcome to your opinion. I'm going to wait and see how it plays out. I trust Pegula to make a rational decision and long-term I expect the team to win.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Personally I like Whaley and would keep him. We all rip on him for drafting ej and in cool with that. But had nix properly addressed the qb situation before 2013 whaley wouldn't have been forced to pull the trigger on someone. And even though he drafted him too early, he did trade down to get him too!

[justasportsfan]

Beat the pats, Marrone stays for sure.

Both Marrone and Whaley has had their positive and negatives

[BertSquirtgum]

Whaley has done more than enough to prove he should still be here. There is a buffoon as the head coach that Whaley wasn't allowed to hand pick himself. Brandon's fingerprints are all over that hire. Brandon needs to be fired first and foremost. Then Marrone and the whole offensive staff. Personally, I would like to see Schwartz the head coach if Whaley is ok with that. Otherwise, let Whaley bring to light the guy he wants and allow Pegula to make that decision when it comes.

[GvilleBills]

Marrone knew he had EJ Manuel to work with coming in to the season. All he wanted was a little help up front and he didn't get it.

The Bills 2014 2nd round pick, Cyrus Kouandjio didn't start a single game. 5th rounder, Cyril Richardson got eaten alive. 7th rounder, Seantrel Henderson had a very rough rookie year. Watching Henderson play against the Raiders defense was disturbing.

Signing Chris Williams to a contract was a horrible decision by Whaley.

No offense, all defense and a first round draft pick that wasn't necessary.

If Whaley drafted 3 hogs in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds of the 2014 draft, the Bills might be playing for something on Sunday.

Well done Captain Hindsight.

All 3 of the draft picks were loudly applauded for getting that talent at those spots. The self proclaimed OL guru, Saint Doug, was going to coach them up. He didn't/couldn't perform that duty.
Chris Williams was loudly a "wtf" signing. But the thought being Saint Doug would work his magic and get Williams to play to his potential. He didn't, and Williams got hurt anyway.

Whaley gave the "guru" more than enough toys. Marrone was not as advertised.

[Dr. Who]

Whaley has done more than enough to prove he should still be here. There is a buffoon as the head coach that Whaley wasn't allowed to hand pick himself. Brandon's fingerprints are all over that hire. Brandon needs to be fired first and foremost. Then Marrone and the whole offensive staff. Personally, I would like to see Schwartz the head coach if Whaley is ok with that. Otherwise, let Whaley bring to light the guy he wants and allow Pegula to make that decision when it comes.

I am largely in sympathy with you, though I am concerned that Schwartz's tenure with the Lions did not go well. I realize he started with a dreadful team, but the last few underachieved and were undisciplined. I'm not certain he isn't a very good coordinator who shouldn't be a head coach.

[starrymessenger]

To me Marrone is pretty much a useless person.
He gets no credit for the D IMO.
He and his OC are largely responsible for this dreadful O. It was maybe unreasonable to expect it to be good, but it has regressed under his watch. The players are not THAT inept. It's on the coaches IMO.
I would fire Marrone and of course Hackett, limit Brandon to the business side of things, give Whaley two more years to show improvement but fully empower him as GM.
Alternatively, Pegs could wash his hands of this train wreck administration put in place by a complacent former owner and give the whole organization a fresh start. Were he to take that one on so soon after buying the team he would need the advice and counsel of a top flight professional football administrator - Accorsi?

[tomz]

If it comes down to only keeping one or the other, Whaley wins and it's not even close.

I agree with this. I do not think we completely lack O-line talent. Indeed, there is an argument to be made that even the best of the line players regressed under Marrone, who is nominally an-o-line guy. O-line play affected our ability to run the ball and either QB's ability to develop rhythm in passing.

I think that Whaley has done a fine job over the past two years assembling talent. Not 100% hit rate but this roster has the horses, IMHO.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/27/buffalo-shakeup-could-result-in-polian-reunion/

then theres this......

[Dr. Who]

Polian said he thought Marrone should be considered for coach of the year.
If he really thinks that, I'd pass.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Polian said he thought Marrone should be considered for coach of the year.
If he really thinks that, I'd pass.

Yea. I agree with you. I'm a broken record but given a choice i keep Whaley.

[WagonCircler]

Polian, *****es.

Buffalo.
Bill.
Polian.

[WagonCircler]

Polian said he thought Marrone should be considered for coach of the year.
If he really thinks that, I'd pass.

Polian said that as a paid talking head. NFL analysis is as real as reality TV.

[pmoon6]

Whaley blew it drafting Manuel, Kuoandijo and Richardson. He gave too much to get Watkins (when he didn't have a QB). The Chris Williams move at guard is baffling.

Did he make good moves? Sure. Robert Woods & Kiko Alanso were great picks. But I don't see how it's not even close.No GM in history has hit on everything or even 80%. As of now, his successes outweigh his failures.

Even Polian drafted some players that didn't perform up to expectations.

[YardRat]

Yes because of Nix.

All of those players were brought in under Whaley as GM, not Nix.

I guess Brandon should get credit for drafting Dareus, Bradham and Gilmore, and signing Mario then, if that's the case.

[swiper]

For blowing it on Manuel, Kujo and Richardson I give you Woods, Kiko (added because our GM traded down to get Manuel), Preston Brown, trading for Hughes and signing guys like Carpenter, Spikes/Rivers, Corey Graham. Toss in late additions like Colton Schmidt, Gray and Thigpen. If you can't see that our roster is better because of Whaley's work you failed to understand football. He didn't do it alone either her did it with the help of Kelvin Fisher (former Steelers scout that Whaley named Director of College scouting). Look back at the last decade of our drafts and you'll see very few of our picks ended up staying in Buffalo (or the league) long yet in the last few drafts we've found a few guys to keep around.


I'll give you that.

[swiper]

Jesus. Some of you are really acting like little girls. When pegula bought he team everybody was 'rah rah.' He's barely owned the team for 3 months and some of the same people have already lumped him as an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing cause nothing has happened yet based on zero facts! Put a tampon in it people.

His years owning the Sabres don't make him look like a MENSA member of sports franchise ownership.

[swiper]

No GM in history has hit on everything or even 80%. As of now, his successes outweigh his failures.

Even Polian drafted some players that didn't perform up to expectations.

No. Aboslutely. And, if anything, getting players like the punter (Schmidt), Thigpen, Gray, Corey Graham says more about him. I get your wait and see attitude. I agree. But they have to put the right QB in place. They clearly haven't done that. It's not an easy task, as you know. They should have been doing more over the past 5 or 6 years.

[Mace]

Which is the one group that bid for the Bills that we heard nothing from during the process?

I don't think it was his neighbors. Golisano ? Not sure where you're going with it though ?

[Night Train]

Time to clean out the admin. building.

Need OL and a QB. This crew is in denial over that and can't call an offensive game plan to save themselves.

Can't score, can't win.

.

[Mace]

Can't score, can't win.

.

You're not being fair to Dan Carpenter who scored 33 times. We can score, other people just get better scores.

[swiper]

You're not being fair to Dan Carpenter who scored 33 times. We can score, other people just get better scores.

LOL. And the guy who Polian claims should be considered for CoY struggles in the red zone, again, in year two. Whaley got him Mike Williams to help him with that problem and Marrone, the arrogant Saint Doug, refused to use him. Polian should just STFU.

[YardRat]

Time to clean out the admin. building.

Need OL and a QB. This crew is in denial over that and can't call an offensive game plan to save themselves.

Can't score, can't win.

.

The offensive side of the coaching staff, maybe, but not the entire admin building.

Whaley brought in a 'bust' first round LBer/DE, a career nickelback/reserve corner, a 'limited' MLB, and a couple of rookie LBers (just to name a very few) and the coaches on that side of the ball have gotten the most out of those players, including better performances out of some of the leftovers (AW, Bradham, etc). He's brought in a first round QB, a decent FA quarterback, a middling vet guard and some allegedly decent olinemen via the draft...plus a red-zone threat WR and a couple of playmakers...and the offense has just been on a continuous downhill slide, and even their share of leftovers have regressed (Glenn, Urbik, Wood).

That's coaching, plain and simple, and it's obvious where this staff's strengths and weaknesses are.

[sudzy]

Yes Whaley deserves credit building this front 7. He can draft a great LB.
And he deserve the blame for the QB situation and Offensive line.

[pmoon6]

You guys still don't get it. A GM can't get everything right. How long has Whalley had the reigns? Two years. He missed (premature evaluation) on the most important position, QB. That has been our downfall.

Alot of you guys wanted young blood at GM. We have one and now you want to throw him under the bus after a couple years?

That thinking just bolsters my opinion of most football fans.

[Mahdi]

Yes Whaley deserves credit building this front 7. He can draft a great LB.
And he deserve the blame for the QB situation and Offensive line.


How does Whaley get credit for front 7? None of our 3 PBers nor Bradham were signed/drafted by him. Even Kiko was a Nix pick.

[Mahdi]

The offensive side of the coaching staff, maybe, but not the entire admin building.

Whaley brought in a 'bust' first round LBer/DE, a career nickelback/reserve corner, a 'limited' MLB, and a couple of rookie LBers (just to name a very few) and the coaches on that side of the ball have gotten the most out of those players, including better performances out of some of the leftovers (AW, Bradham, etc). He's brought in a first round QB, a decent FA quarterback, a middling vet guard and some allegedly decent olinemen via the draft...plus a red-zone threat WR and a couple of playmakers...and the offense has just been on a continuous downhill slide, and even their share of leftovers have regressed (Glenn, Urbik, Wood).

That's coaching, plain and simple, and it's obvious where this staff's strengths and weaknesses are.

Whaley did nothing to improve the OL. Missed on Kouandjio in a year we needed a good OL to get to playoffs. We can't afford to have 2nd rounders on the bench.

He also had no backup plan to for Manuel till a after TC... Huge errors

[YardRat]

Whaley did nothing to improve the OL. Missed on Kouandjio in a year we needed a good OL to get to playoffs. We can't afford to have 2nd rounders on the bench.

Coaching. The defensive side of the ball hasn't had any issues with Kiko, Brown, Robey etc. He also brought in Spikes, Hughes, Lawson, Rivers, et al.

Why do you keep insisting Alonso was a Nix pick?


He also had no backup plan to for Manuel till a after TC... Huge errors

There were no FA QB's out there any better than Orton to get, and you're assuming the timing of the acquisition is on the team and not the player. Do you know for certain Whaley didn't try to sign Kyle right after he was cut loose by the Cowboy's? IMO that would be a foolish assumption, like him or not one of the characteristics Whaley has establish in his less than two years as the GM is that he is aggressive in getting the players he wants, and that includes handing Orton the highest back-up contract in the league at that time.

[notacon]

Having Marrone stay and getting rid of Whaley is probably the worst of all moves Pagula could make.

Like Ingtar said (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/227325-Relationship-between-Marrone-and-Whaley-quot-Beyond-repair-quot?p=4039307&viewfull=1#post4039307), "no GM worth a hill of beans would come into a situation where he can't pick his coach". I don't want a GM who would take the job under those conditions. Even though it does happen, who wants a guy so weak to reshape the Bills? And make no mistake, this organization needs a complete, head-to-toe re-do.

As wagon said (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/227325-Relationship-between-Marrone-and-Whaley-quot-Beyond-repair-quot?p=4039348&viewfull=1#post4039348), "If I could choose the best GM and HC money can but, would I choose Doug Whaley and Doug Marrone" Of course, no one in their right mind would answer that question affirmatively.

There is one reason that the Bills never sustained a consistent winning tradition. Ralph Wilson. I don't mean the disrespect the guy that made NFL football possible in Buffalo, and doggedly keeping the team here when he would have done much, much better financially to move the team. I will always appreciate and respect the man who did that.

But, we have to face facts. His loyalty to some people was misplaced, and his aversion to others hurt even more. He was, in fact, too stingy. I am not convinced that after the salary cap was put into place that he was cheap on players. But, certainly before that he unquestionably was. The most important players drafts were done despite Wilson, not because of him. I'm talking about OJ Simpson, Bruce Smith and Jim Kelly. In Kelly's case, he did all he could to screw it up.

Even more important, was Wilson's aversion for paying coaches and GM's, where there is no salary cap. Whenever there was a strong personality in either of those positions, he undermined it. I thinking Lou Saban and Bill Polian. Marv Levy, despite my love for the guy, was not a top notch coach. Bill Parcels proved that beyond any doubt when he completely out-coached him (as did Jimmy Johnson and Joe Gibbs) in those painful Super Bowl loses.

Over the last decade and a half, Buffalo was not the most desirable place for big time (coaching and GM) talent to come to. With Wilson getting older, and no public succession plan (except auctioning the team off), and the constant specter of moving the team, and Wilson's history were glaring warning signs for the best of the best to stay away from Buffalo. Those impediments are all gone now. Stable ownership with NO CHANCE of moving the team is now a reality that many of us thought never possible.

This is Pagula's BEST chance to change the whole perspective of the team for decades to come. I don't think it's his only chance, but, if he chooses to NOT totally clean house, he will set-back the development of the team for another decade...maybe two.

As fans, we must let it be known, loud and clear, that it's time to change the whole perception of the Buffalo Bills. No wish-washy half measures.

Do the Job, Mr Pagula!!! Spend the money. You don't know how to run the football operations of a NFL franchise. Get someone in here that does. And then give him ALL the tools to succeed.

That is the ONLY way. It starts by firing Marrone AND Whaley, and the whole coaching staff ASAP after today's game.

[better days]

And Marrone has made some hiddeous in-game time use decisions and allowed some horrid play calling.

But he has brought the Bills up to 8 wins in just two years - something they haven't seen in a long while.

Winning ONLY 8 games after two years with this defense is reason Marrone should be fired IMO.

[swiper]

Winning ONLY 8 games after two years with this defense is reason Marrone should be fired IMO.


It's hard to know. Any successful coach is tied to a decent or better QB. Marrone, nor anyone, could have gotten much more with the QB and o-line play they've had this year. He can "coach up" the o-line (as this core played much better under Gailey/D'Alessandris imo), but the QB is the QB. And we don't have a good one. This defense brought us from 6-10 or 7-9 to 8-8.

[The Jokeman]

Whaley did nothing to improve the OL. Missed on Kouandjio in a year we needed a good OL to get to playoffs. We can't afford to have 2nd rounders on the bench.

He also had no backup plan to for Manuel till a after TC... Huge errors

He tried by drafting 3 guys. He also tried by signing Chris Williams. The effort was there and maybe a little short sighted but again he's done more to help this roster than hinder it. Hopefully he'll see the holes we have on offense see OG, TE and possibly QB play. I mean this time last year we were all set to fire Danny Crossman but Whaley focused on improving the ST last year and now it's amongst the league's best.

[The Jokeman]

Whaley did nothing to improve the OL. Missed on Kouandjio in a year we needed a good OL to get to playoffs. We can't afford to have 2nd rounders on the bench.

He also had no backup plan to for Manuel till a after TC... Huge errors

In terms of the backup plan for EJ, it looks like waiting was the best plan of attack. As let's look at what other teams with rookie QBs in 2013 did for backup plans. The Jets went Mike Vick and where are they now? drafting in the top 5 of the draft. The Buccaneeers tried to replace their rookie QB with Luke McCown and guess what? They're drafting in the top 2 of the draft. I know it's easy to say EJ/Orton aren't good enough but look at what was available. Can you really tell me you wanted to sign Sanchez and/or Shaun Hill this offseason? I know I talked about Hill in the preseason but I can't say we'd be any better with him versus Orton.