Think bigger?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

We have been looking hard at trying to revive the careers of bums like Sanchez, maybe we should aim our sights higher?

How about Drew Brees?

Now, before you think "They'd never trade him" consider this: The GM leveraged the team against Drew this last year, trying to fit several other additions (including You Know Who) to make a run in a historically weak NFC South. They failed (obviously). Now they are holding some serious cap hits and the largest of all is for Drew, who is about to turn 36. He will account for a whopping $26.4 million of their cap in 2015 and $27.4 in 2016. Obviously staggering numbers.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-orleans-saints/drew-brees/

However, if he comes off their books, he'd account for 14.8 million in dead money for 2015. A bitter pill to swallow indeed, but it's only for one year. Teams have survived worse. We ate over twice that this year alone.

Meanwhile, we would inherit his contract without the signing bonus, as we did with Mike Williams. For us, Brees would count for $19 million in 2015 and $20 million in 2016. 2 years, 39 million is not chump change, but people were making serious claims that we should take on Jay Cutler at 2 for 31.5 million.

There's also the fact that Marrone coached Brees during Marrone's most successful years, and if he thinks he is on the hot seat, who would he rather stake his career on?

There was talk already this season that New Orleans was looking to draft his replacement: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/11/30/report-saints-thinking-about-life-after-drew-brees/

At #13 they likely have no shot at either of the assumed top 2 guys, but with our picks added, they have a reasonable chance at a package for Jax's #3 pick and possibly Winston.

I think a deal can be struck. I think our 2nd and 3rd this year as well as our 2nd next year which could conditionally become a 1st, could do it. Would you push those chips to the center?

[YardRat]

He'd get killed behind our oline.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

He'd get killed behind our oline.

Yes, well this does require some of our OL pickups to improve between seasons *dagger eyes at Kujo*

[BuffaloRedleg]

I've thought about that as well. I'm not really confident in his abilities outside of a dome, but he's far and beyond better than anything we'd have a shot at getting.

That would be unreal.

[BuffaloRedleg]

He'd get killed behind our oline.

Why do people keep saying this like it is a surprise?

Every single QB in the league would get killed behind this O-Line.

The assumption is that we will improve that next year in addition to getting a QB. We shouldn't have to restate it every time as I think it is pretty obvious.

[DraftBoy]

Why do people keep saying this like it is a surprise?

Every single QB in the league would get killed behind this O-Line.

The assumption is that we will improve that next year in addition to getting a QB. We shouldn't have to restate it every time as I think it is pretty obvious.

When you're talking about bringing in an 18.75 million dollar contract for next season then yes it does need to be restated. As of right now we are projected to have about $27 million via Sportac. You add Brees that number goes down to below $10 million.

So no its not just an assumption that we will improve it. Not in this scenario with under $10 million to spend not counting rookies, resigning Hughes, or redoing Dareus or Spiller. Also don't forget about Gilmore.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

When you're talking about bringing in an 18.75 million dollar contract for next season then yes it does need to be restated. As of right now we are projected to have about $27 million via Sportac. You add Brees that number goes down to below $10 million.

So no its not just an assumption that we will improve it. Not in this scenario with under $10 million to spend not counting rookies, resigning Hughes, or redoing Dareus or Spiller. Also don't forget about Gilmore.

No, but I'm suggesting we upgrade from EJ Manuel to (depending on who you ask) the 4th to 7th best QB in football. That will not come without cost, and I recognize that Spiller and probably Hughes would both be sacrifices.

But short of a massive leap from Manuel or a Wilson-esque draft steal, I'm not seeing how we'll get a notable improvement at the QB position over what we had last year without making a bold move.

FWIW, the rookie reserve barely matters in my scenario. As it stands we are already down our 1st, and I don't see any way this trade happens without at least including our 2nd. Our entire draft class next year wouldn't move the needle.

Also there are some veteran cuts that we would consider making if money become an issue. Fred Jackson ($2.6 million) and Manny Lawson ($2.6 million saved) jump right off the page.

[DraftBoy]

No, but I'm suggesting we upgrade from EJ Manuel to (depending on who you ask) the 4th to 7th best QB in football. That will not come without cost, and I recognize that Spiller and probably Hughes would both be sacrifices.

But short of a massive leap from Manuel or a Wilson-esque draft steal, I'm not seeing how we'll get a notable improvement at the QB position over what we had last year without making a bold move.

While I would have zero issue bringing in Brees and think his quick release would be ideal for our swiss cheese OL, I don't believe the Bills will make a notable move at the QB position. I think you're going to see Manuel, Tuel, some mid-level (at best) veteran, and a mid-round draft pick as the four camp QB's next year.

Love to have Brees, just don't see it.

Also taking Brees handcuffs on other moves, not just Hughes and Spiller. Still gotta find money for Dareus and Gilmore both of whom you absolutely have to resign.

[Lexwhat]

I am not worried about our own Salary Cap -- players can always be restructured, and our salary cap gurus (I use that term lightly) can manage to work it out.

However, I highly doubt Brees is going anywhere. As long as Sean Payton and Brees are together, they can regroup and come back stronger next year. "Looking for a replacement" in the draft is not the same actually having a replacement. No rookie QB is going to come in with the same skill set and talent level as Drew Brees. Let's re-visit this idea next year about Brees leaving New Orleans.

I think the only player on the Saints offense who is gone is Marques Colston. Unless he takes a pay cut, he is not worth the amount he is earning.

[swiper]

I think getting Matt Schaub is much more attainable. He's better than any of the other garbage out there.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5615/matt-schaub

http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2014/02/08/which-matt-would-you-take-matt-schaub-or-matt-cassels/

His floor is Kyle Orton's ceiling.

[YardRat]

I'm pretty confident that banking multiple draft picks and cap space/annual salaries for a contract that severely restricts upgrading the offensive line, re-signing some of our own players this off-season, and jeopardizes signing even more young players another season down the road is the quickest route to failure.

Face it...without a Brady-like leap from Tuel (which IMO isn't going to happen) there is nothing significant the team can do to upgrade the QB position this off-season, so everybody might as well accept that right now and concentrate on other area's of the team that can be fixed, that does have talent available without mortgaging the future.

[SpikedLemonade]

I don't trust Hackett and Marrone to create an offensive scheme worthy of Brees.

[DraftBoy]

I don't trust Hackett and Marrone to create an offensive scheme worthy of Brees.

If they brought in Brees (massive if) then Marrone has already worked with him in New Orleans under Payton. He wasn't the primary play caller but he was the OC and worked directly with Brees.

[better days]

I've thought about that as well. I'm not really confident in his abilities outside of a dome, but he's far and beyond better than anything we'd have a shot at getting.

That would be unreal.

Brees is good in a dome or warm weather. We know that.

But I doubt he has played a dozen games in COLD WINDY weather.

The question is can he handle the elements?

As for the OL, Brees would make the OL look MUCH better than Orton did.

[Uncle Jesse]

With our QB situation currently, and what it's been for 15 years, and people are scoffing at Drew Brees, like he isn't good enough for us? I've seen it all.

[better days]

With our QB situation currently, and what it's been for 15 years, and people are scoffing at Drew Brees, like he isn't good enough for us? I've seen it all.

Brees is 36 years old & played his entire career in San Diego & New Orleans.

He hasn't played but a handful of games in BAD weather if that many.

Yeah, I question how good Brees would be in Buffalo late in the season, but I'm not saying I wouldn't take him in a heartbeat for NOW.

[BuffaloRedleg]

When you're talking about bringing in an 18.75 million dollar contract for next season then yes it does need to be restated. As of right now we are projected to have about $27 million via Sportac. You add Brees that number goes down to below $10 million.

So no its not just an assumption that we will improve it. Not in this scenario with under $10 million to spend not counting rookies, resigning Hughes, or redoing Dareus or Spiller. Also don't forget about Gilmore.

Well to be fair we did almost just make the playoffs with the worst QB in the league and the current offensive line.

Brees would get the ball out faster and more accurately, improving O Line play.

Not saying we don't need to improve O Line, but I don't think what you are saying is fully thought out.

[EDS]

I don't trust Hackett and Marrone to create an offensive scheme worthy of Brees.

I would trust Brees to audible to the correct play.

[Jan Reimers]

Drew Brees is on the downside of his career. Neither his arm nor his mobility are what they once were. He is a smallish, dome QB who will need a good O-Line to continue having even a little success in the league. He will never be what he once was. In some respects he reminds me of a Bledsoe-like pickup.

Rather than bigger, we should think younger, or fresher, or at-the-beginning-of-a-career.

[better days]

Drew Brees is on the downside of his career. Neither his arm nor his mobility are what they once were. He is a smallish, dome QB who will need a good O-Line to continue having even a little success in the league. He will never be what he once was. In some respects he reminds me of a Bledsoe-like pickup.

Rather than bigger, we should think younger, or fresher, or at-the-beginning-of-a-career.

The Bills best shot of a bigger, younger QB is EJ Manuel.

[DraftBoy]

Well to be fair we did almost just make the playoffs with the worst QB in the league and the current offensive line.

Brees would get the ball out faster and more accurately, improving O Line play.

Not saying we don't need to improve O Line, but I don't think what you are saying is fully thought out.

We had one of the worst OL's in football, but could you explain which part isn't fully thought out?

Also You were the one who said that improving the OL is a given and that it doesn't need to be mentioned when given the money that we would have available it absolutely does.

[DraftBoy]

Drew Brees is on the downside of his career. Neither his arm nor his mobility are what they once were. He is a smallish, dome QB who will need a good O-Line to continue having even a little success in the league. He will never be what he once was. In some respects he reminds me of a Bledsoe-like pickup.

Rather than bigger, we should think younger, or fresher, or at-the-beginning-of-a-career.

As a two year option I don't think its a bad decision. A quick glance at the next two QB classes show just average looking prospects. If you can get a guy to get you to the 2017 class where the QB class looks deep and strong then why not?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I'm pretty confident that banking multiple draft picks and cap space/annual salaries for a contract that severely restricts upgrading the offensive line, re-signing some of our own players this off-season, and jeopardizes signing even more young players another season down the road is the quickest route to failure.

You're acting like I want to put those draft picks and money in a pile and set them on fire. I'm talking about taking a two year shot on one of the elite QBs in the league.

I already said that in 2015 it would likely cost us Spiller and Hughes. Spiller stinks so I have no issue with that. Losing Hughes would hurt but, again, I'm talking about a franchise QB here.

Other than that, our 2015 UFAs of note are Spikes, Pears, and Searcy. Pears is a liability, and neither Spikes nor Searcy should be an expensive re-sign.

In 2016 we have a lot more important FAs, but we also only have $84 million in salary cap accounted for. Adding Brees' $20 million to that plus some amount for Searcy and Spikes (let's say 7 million total, which is high IMO), then we have $111 million in salary at a cap that would be $140 million at minimum. Brees' deal ends in 2017, so only the 2016 year would be any sort of conflict. It is very possible to move cap hits around so they don't conflict with each other.


Face it...without a Brady-like leap from Tuel (which IMO isn't going to happen) there is nothing significant the team can do to upgrade the QB position this off-season, so everybody might as well accept that right now and concentrate on other area's of the team that can be fixed, that does have talent available without mortgaging the future.

Our defense is championship caliber right now. How many games do we win with even competent quarterbacking, let alone a top guy?

[cookie G]

If they brought in Brees (massive if) then Marrone has already worked with him in New Orleans under Payton. He wasn't the primary play caller but he was the OC and worked directly with Brees.

And maybe that would be a sticking point...

[DraftBoy]

And maybe that would be a sticking point...

Certainly could be.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

And maybe that would be a sticking point...

Ha! Fair point, perhaps Brees is in the infamous Marrone doghouse. They are going to have to build a second wing on that thing.

[sukie]

I'd love to be a third party to the conversation between the agent and an aging Drew Brees about possibly going to Buffalo before hanging it (and the phone) up.

[BuffaloRedleg]

We had one of the worst OL's in football, but could you explain which part isn't fully thought out?

Also You were the one who said that improving the OL is a given and that it doesn't need to be mentioned when given the money that we would have available it absolutely does.

Your panties are seriously in a bunch about this.

All I'm saying is that every time we discuss a QB someone has to chime in with "But with this O Line it won't make a difference"

I'm not saying the O Line doesn't need to be fixed. It does.

However, getting a QB is both harder and more important, and the topic of this thread.
Bringing in Brees and paying him the money he would require does not keep us from getting a guard. You can get one in the 2nd round or a serviceable one in free agency.

The important discussion this offseason is QB, not O Line.Yes I know O Line play affects QB play, but not as much as people make it out to be. The O Line needs to be "good enough", but your QB can't be "good enough".

[better days]

Your panties are seriously in a bunch about this.

All I'm saying is that every time we discuss a QB someone has to chime in with "But with this O Line it won't make a difference"

I'm not saying the O Line doesn't need to be fixed. It does.

However, getting a QB is both harder and more important, and the topic of this thread.
Bringing in Brees and paying him the money he would require does not keep us from getting a guard. You can get one in the 2nd round or a serviceable one in free agency.

The important discussion this offseason is QB, not O Line.Yes I know O Line play affects QB play, but not as much as people make it out to be. The O Line needs to be "good enough", but your QB can't be "good enough".

And as I said before, a GOOD QB that gets rid of the ball instead of hanging on to it forever & a little mobility wouldn't hurt either, would make the OL look much better than it did with Orton at QB.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I'd love to be a third party to the conversation between the agent and an aging Drew Brees about possibly going to Buffalo before hanging it (and the phone) up.

My scenario would involve a trade. Drew wouldn't have a say in it.

[better days]

My scenario would involve a trade. Drew wouldn't have a say in it.

Well, at 36 years old he could retire.

Or he could just take the money & slide short of the first down on 4th & one.

[DraftBoy]

Your panties are seriously in a bunch about this.

All I'm saying is that every time we discuss a QB someone has to chime in with "But with this O Line it won't make a difference"

I'm not saying the O Line doesn't need to be fixed. It does.

However, getting a QB is both harder and more important, and the topic of this thread.
Bringing in Brees and paying him the money he would require does not keep us from getting a guard. You can get one in the 2nd round or a serviceable one in free agency.

The important discussion this offseason is QB, not O Line.Yes I know O Line play affects QB play, but not as much as people make it out to be. The O Line needs to be "good enough", but your QB can't be "good enough".

You've now gone back and forth on this, first it was that it doesn't need to be mentioned then it was maybe Brees doesn't need the upgrade, and now its back to not needing to be mentioned, which still makes little sense to me but at least we're back on point.

Somebody mentions it because its quite pertinent and for years this team has been focusing on issues singularly while ignoring problems as a whole.

Agreed and agreed. You say that (2nd round or servicable one in FA) without any context. You don't mention names, you don't mention price points, so in other words how do you possibly know that? That's not even getting into the discussion about Whaley and the Front Offices propensity for finding either serviceable guards (Chris Williams) or 2nd Round picks (Kujo). Big key to why people aren't willing to just accept that the OL will get fixed no matter what.

The important discussion this offseason is getting better period. There are a number of positions that can be upgraded and others that have aging veterans that may need younger options soon. The top priority for this offseason if you asked me to narrow it down to a specific player or position is Marcel Dareus and not the QB. He's our best player and we need to lock him up now, not after we fix other things or after we find a QB. We've made that mistake countless times before and when you're talking about the best player on your team you simply don't screw around with that.

I'm not even going to touch the "good enough" angle because it makes less sense than anything else said in this thread to this point.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Well, at 36 years old he could retire.

If he retires, he eats $40 million. I mean, I know Buffalo's reputation is bad, but eating $40 million to not play for us? Jesus, just move the team at that point.


Or he could just take the money & slide short of the first down on 4th & one.

If I've got Drew Brees on my team, I wouldn't want him picking up first downs with his legs ever.

[better days]

If he retires, he eats $40 million. I mean, I know Buffalo's reputation is bad, but eating $40 million to not play for us? Jesus, just move the team at that point.



If I've got Drew Brees on my team, I wouldn't want him picking up first downs with his legs ever.

Well, when Orton slid on 4td down, that was not in the plan either.

Plays break down.

When they do, I want a COMPETITOR like Brady at QB, not a guy just looking to cash a check.

[Mr. Pink]

If he retires, he eats $40 million. I mean, I know Buffalo's reputation is bad, but eating $40 million to not play for us? Jesus, just move the team at that point.



If I've got Drew Brees on my team, I wouldn't want him picking up first downs with his legs ever.

But he does. I've seen the Saints call sneaks on 3rd or 4th and short.

Of course, he won't have to worry about that here since QB sneak isn't in the playbook.

- - - Updated - - -


Well, when Orton slid on 4td down, that was not in the plan either.

Plays break down.

When they do, I want a COMPETITOR like Brady at QB, not a guy just looking to cash a check.

Orton slid on 3rd down, not 4th down.

[BuffaloRedleg]

You've now gone back and forth on this, first it was that it doesn't need to be mentioned then it was maybe Brees doesn't need the upgrade, and now its back to not needing to be mentioned, which still makes little sense to me but at least we're back on point.

No. What I said was:

"Why do people keep saying this like it is a surprise?

Every single QB in the league would get killed behind this O-Line.

The assumption is that we will improve that next year in addition to getting a QB. We shouldn't have to restate it every time as I think it is pretty obvious."

I'm absolutely saying the opposite. I'm saying that it is so obvious that we don't need to derail every thread about a QB to talk about the O Line. I also later thought that absolutely the O Line may be better just by virtue of a better QB being in there. Some of you must not be watching the tape on Orton. He's missing the easiest passes in the world even when he isn't under pressure. He has absolutely no poise or feel for pressure in the pocket, exacerbating the problems of the O Line. I'm not saying the O Line doesn't need to be better, I'm saying the getting a QB who actually belongs in this league will help that.


Somebody mentions it because its quite pertinent and for years this team has been focusing on issues singularly while ignoring problems as a whole.

Again, the thread is about the QB. The QB is by far the biggest problem on the team and it isn't even close. That is how bad he was and EJ is. Make a guard thread if you want to talk about guards, bringing up other things just derails this thread. Nobody is saying we should ignore the O Line, so I don't know where you get that from.


Agreed and agreed. You say that (2nd round or servicable one in FA) without any context. You don't mention names, you don't mention price points, so in other words how do you possibly know that? That's not even getting into the discussion about Whaley and the Front Offices propensity for finding either serviceable guards (Chris Williams) or 2nd Round picks (Kujo). Big key to why people aren't willing to just accept that the OL will get fixed no matter what.

Dude again, I'm not saying they don't need a guard or that Whaley will guarantee figure it out. I'm saying that it is obvious that it needs to be better. It's also not the topic of this thread. Every single time someone brings up a QB someone has to be brilliant and say OMG BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OLINE. Well duh, but this is about QB, the biggest problem on the team.


The important discussion this offseason is getting better period. There are a number of positions that can be upgraded and others that have aging veterans that may need younger options soon. The top priority for this offseason if you asked me to narrow it down to a specific player or position is Marcel Dareus and not the QB. He's our best player and we need to lock him up now, not after we fix other things or after we find a QB. We've made that mistake countless times before and when you're talking about the best player on your team you simply don't screw around with that.

Fine, start your own thread about "getting better". This one is about bringing in a QB, and I just get annoyed when people derail what I believe to be the most pressing (and by the far the most interesting) issue to discuss this offseason.


I'm not even going to touch the "good enough" angle because it makes less sense than anything else said in this thread to this point.

Your O Line doesn't need to be great. It needs to be "good enough" to give the QB enough time to throw. Your QB however has to be great if you want to be competitive in this league. I don't know how that is complicated.

Look, this is ridiculous. You are blowing this way out of proportion and manufacturing an argument. My only point when I said the thing about the O Line was in the first phrase "Why do people acting like this is a surprise?" We know they are going to have to improve it, we assume they will try and improve it, and if you want to sit and argue about guards to pick up then by all means start your own thread but that **** is boring. QB is the priority and the most interesting thing to talk about. Lets just drop this, I can't believe I took this long to explain a simple offhand point.

[DraftBoy]

No. What I said was:

"Why do people keep saying this like it is a surprise?

Every single QB in the league would get killed behind this O-Line.

The assumption is that we will improve that next year in addition to getting a QB. We shouldn't have to restate it every time as I think it is pretty obvious."

I'm absolutely saying the opposite. I'm saying that it is so obvious that we don't need to derail every thread about a QB to talk about the O Line. I also later thought that absolutely the O Line may be better just by virtue of a better QB being in there. Some of you must not be watching the tape on Orton. He's missing the easiest passes in the world even when he isn't under pressure. He has absolutely no poise or feel for pressure in the pocket, exacerbating the problems of the O Line. I'm not saying the O Line doesn't need to be better, I'm saying the getting a QB who actually belongs in this league will help that.

Mentioning it is not derailment and its even more important here since the amount of Brees contract would have a direct impact on what we can do in terms of adding players this off-season.


Again, the thread is about the QB. The QB is by far the biggest problem on the team and it isn't even close. That is how bad he was and EJ is. Make a guard thread if you want to talk about guards, bringing up other things just derails this thread. Nobody is saying we should ignore the O Line, so I don't know where you get that from.

I don't believe I said anywhere in the post you quoted that you want to ignore the OL. Maybe you missed the point?


Dude again, I'm not saying they don't need a guard or that Whaley will guarantee figure it out. I'm saying that it is obvious that it needs to be better. It's also not the topic of this thread. Every single time someone brings up a QB someone has to be brilliant and say OMG BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OLINE. Well duh, but this is about QB, the biggest problem on the team

But your dismissing what is a very valid point when you're talking about bringing in a QB with Brees contract. Somewhere along the way you've either missed that or ignored it completely. You thinking its not valid is your decision but calling others out for making a valid point about the limitations that deal places on our ability to address the OL is ridiculous.


Fine, start your own thread about "getting better". This one is about bringing in a QB, and I just get annoyed when people derail what I believe to be the most pressing (and by the far the most interesting) issue to discuss this offseason.

I have and I will continue to do so. What annoys you is less germane to the discussion about the OL and how Brees contract affects our ability to potentially improve it.


Your O Line doesn't need to be great. It needs to be "good enough" to give the QB enough time to throw. Your QB however has to be great if you want to be competitive in this league. I don't know how that is complicated.

Yea still not touching that with a 10 foot pole.


Look, this is ridiculous. You are blowing this way out of proportion and manufacturing an argument. My only point when I said the thing about the O Line was in the first phrase "Why do people acting like this is a surprise?" We know they are going to have to improve it, we assume they will try and improve it, and if you want to sit and argue about guards to pick up then by all means start your own thread but that **** is boring. QB is the priority and the most interesting thing to talk about. Lets just drop this, I can't believe I took this long to explain a simple offhand point.

I provided you with why people are talking about the OL in a thread about Brees. You assume they will try and improve the OL, but many people have questions. You can operate under your own assumptions but don't try and crap on others who aren't as convinced as you. This is a message board after all which is intended for discussion. There is already a thread about available Guards. I encourage you to check it out.

What is most interesting to some in the QB discussion is the impact it will have on the Bills ability to maneuver in other aspects of the team. This team has issues along with the QB and what we do at QB will directly affect those issues or our ability to address them.

Do you not see how all of that is absolutely relevant to and a valid part of the QB discussion?

[BuffaloRedleg]

Mentioning it is not derailment and its even more important here since the amount of Brees contract would have a direct impact on what we can do in terms of adding players this off-season.



I don't believe I said anywhere in the post you quoted that you want to ignore the OL. Maybe you missed the point?



But your dismissing what is a very valid point when you're talking about bringing in a QB with Brees contract. Somewhere along the way you've either missed that or ignored it completely. You thinking its not valid is your decision but calling others out for making a valid point about the limitations that deal places on our ability to address the OL is ridiculous.



I have and I will continue to do so. What annoys you is less germane to the discussion about the OL and how Brees contract affects our ability to potentially improve it.



Yea still not touching that with a 10 foot pole.



I provided you with why people are talking about the OL in a thread about Brees. You assume they will try and improve the OL, but many people have questions. You can operate under your own assumptions but don't try and crap on others who aren't as convinced as you. This is a message board after all which is intended for discussion. There is already a thread about available Guards. I encourage you to check it out.

What is most interesting to some in the QB discussion is the impact it will have on the Bills ability to maneuver in other aspects of the team. This team has issues along with the QB and what we do at QB will directly affect those issues or our ability to address them.

Do you not see how all of that is absolutely relevant to and a valid part of the QB discussion?

Jesus fahking christ I feel like I'm arguing with my girlfriend.

You will not be able to convince me anything other than QB is the most important discussion of this offseason so give it up.

The O Line should be fixed but honestly this is a playoff team with Brees at QB right now. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.

If I had the choice between bringing in Brees and not being able to sign a guard, vs bringing in 2 all pro guards and sticking with Manuel/getting Cutler/RGIII/whoever then I take Brees every time. Frankly, unless it is absolutely absurd I don't care what the cost is. I'm not necessarily saying you are making that argument, but that's what it feels like.

It is the one position that is 70% of your team. It makes everything better, from O Line, to defense, to running game, to WRs, to red zone, to Special Teams, to coaching, to the other teams defense being worse, to the other teams offense having to take chances. Everything. Everything.

Go play in your guard thread I'm sure it is fascinating. Then we can start a thread about playing "smash mouth" football and running the ball on the other teams. We can pretend it is 1975.

[Ed]

I just don't see any scenario where the Saints trade Brees. He's not just some aging vet with a big contract. You're talking about the most beloved and accomplished player in franchise history. A true savior to a franchise in total despair after Katrina. That would be an unforgivable sin to their fans and immediately make the Saints irrelevant again. They'll burn in cap hell before they ever get rid of Drew Brees.

[DraftBoy]

Jesus fahking christ I feel like I'm arguing with my girlfriend.

You will not be able to convince me anything other than QB is the most important discussion of this offseason so give it up.

The O Line should be fixed but honestly this is a playoff team with Brees at QB right now. If you can't see that, then I don't know what to tell you.

If I had the choice between bringing in Brees and not being able to sign a guard, vs bringing in 2 all pro guards and sticking with Manuel/getting Cutler/RGIII/whoever then I take Brees every time. Frankly, unless it is absolutely absurd I don't care what the cost is. I'm not necessarily saying you are making that argument, but that's what it feels like.

It is the one position that is 70% of your team. It makes everything better, from O Line, to defense, to running game, to WRs, to red zone, to Special Teams, to coaching, to the other teams defense being worse, to the other teams offense having to take chances. Everything. Everything.

Go play in your guard thread I'm sure it is fascinating. Then we can start a thread about playing "smash mouth" football and running the ball on the other teams. We can pretend it is 1975.

Nobody said any of that, I really think you're just missing the entire point right now.

[Mr. Cynical]

Well, at 36 years old he could retire.

Or he could just take the money & slide short of the first down on 4th & one.

17226

[Mr. Cynical]

I think this is an interesting idea honestly. We know there aren't any QBs that are going to make a difference in the next season, and probably the season after that. So, if you believe that this team is one great QB away from going deep, and you believe this mainly because of the D, then you have to make something like this happen. Otherwise, you have to accept that the next time this team has an honest shot is maybe 4 years from now, given they will have to rebuild that D after 2 years, and the new QB is likely to be a pick from 2015-16.

So yeah, if it can happen, I say take a long and hard look at it. Having his leadership, quick release and "diminished" skills would be a way to a) take a run next year, and b) keep them competitive while they get into position for a replacement.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Nobody said any of that, I really think you're just missing the entire point right now.

If you think "He'd get killed behind our oline" adds something rich and important to this dicussion then I don't know what to tell you.

[DraftBoy]

If you think "He'd get killed behind our oline" adds something rich and important to this dicussion then I don't know what to tell you.

If you think that's the entire discussion then you have truly missed the entire point.

[BuffaloRedleg]

If you think that's the entire discussion then you have truly missed the entire point.

Funny, that was what my response was to. Everything else afterwards was manufactured by you for some reason.

[YardRat]

You're acting like I want to put those draft picks and money in a pile and set them on fire. I'm talking about taking a two year shot on one of the elite QBs in the league.

You're acting like QB is the team's only issue, when it isn't even the biggest issue. That two year shot is going to cost multiple draft picks in the future, and multiple depth players in the present. That's going to have a much longer affect than just two seasons.


I already said that in 2015 it would likely cost us Spiller and Hughes. Spiller stinks so I have no issue with that. Losing Hughes would hurt but, again, I'm talking about a franchise QB here.

I have no issue losing Spiller either...even though I would like to keep Hughes, there's a good possibility we won't anyway, and that's going to be another hole that needs to be filled along with multiple on the offensive line, and Brees isn't going to play either.


Other than that, our 2015 UFAs of note are Spikes, Pears, and Searcy. Pears is a liability, and neither Spikes nor Searcy should be an expensive re-sign.

Maybe...maybe not. Pears can walk, I think we all agree on that. Spikes is going to want some bank, and Searcy may be looking for a deal similar to AW. We don't know that for sure. That's five players just from this squad that would most likely not be coming back, and we haven't even gotten to any guards in FA or having very few draft picks in '15.


In 2016 we have a lot more important FAs, but we also only have $84 million in salary cap accounted for. Adding Brees' $20 million to that plus some amount for Searcy and Spikes (let's say 7 million total, which is high IMO), then we have $111 million in salary at a cap that would be $140 million at minimum. Brees' deal ends in 2017, so only the 2016 year would be any sort of conflict. It is very possible to move cap hits around so they don't conflict with each other.

You're once reverting to your own juggling of cap numbers and completely dismissing the possibility that Pegula is going to continue the cash-to-cap philosophy. Fair for conversation, perhaps, but a little naive to reality.



Our defense is championship caliber right now. How many games do we win with even competent quarterbacking, let alone a top guy?

It was, this season. They won't be able to replicate it if they have to dump salaries, players, and forego FA and/or draft picks.

For the record, I'm certainly not against Brees for any reason regarding his ability...he is one of the top QB's in the league and I don't really think Buffalo weather conditions would have any affect on that. Obviously he would be an upgrade, but if acquiring him severely restricts keeping some of the talent and depth we've acquired up to this point and replenishing those losses in the next couple of seasons the price just isn't worth it.

Just generally speaking, as someone else alluded, Drew Brees and New Orleans are tied at the heartstrings...He is to the Saints what Jim Kelly is to the Bills...not just the team, but the city and fan base itself, and there is no way in hell NO is going to jettison him until he just can't play anymore.

[YardRat]

If you think "He'd get killed behind our oline" adds something rich and important to this dicussion then I don't know what to tell you.

It may not be the entire discussion, but it's certainly an important factor.

What's it going to take for some to finally realize that QB isn't the end all, be all, and having a decent one doesn't magically improve problem areas of the rest of the team?

He would get killed behind this oline, if somebody doesn't realize that by now after watching 16 games of the past season then they just aren't paying attention or don't know what the hell they are talking about. Or both.

[Mr. Cynical]

An interesting comment by espn:

"The Saints allowed 120 more points and 1,253 more yards in 2014 than they did in 2013. They'll need to fix the defense fast as Drew Brees will be 36 to start 2015."

We know we have a D that is leaps above theirs. Is their O that much better than ours? Colston, Stills, Graham and Ingram vs. Watkins, Woods, Chandler (ok, yeah, I know) and FJ/CJ?


http://espn.go.com/nfl/powerrankings/_/year/2014/week/18

[cookie G]

Ha! Fair point, perhaps Brees is in the infamous Marrone doghouse. They are going to have to build a second wing on that thing.

I was thinking just the opposite..he might not want to play for Marrone, or especially Hackett.

[swiper]

Brees lead the league in passing but couldn't carry his team to the play-offs or a winning record. There is no way the Saints will part way with Brees. Absolutely no way.

[BillsImpossible]

The best defense is a good offense.

Signing Brees for 2 years is an intriguing idea.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/2580/drew-brees

4,952 yards passing in 2014.

69.2% completion percentage.

33 TD's, 17 Int's.

Mario Williams could restructure his contract.

Tom Brady just freed up $24 million for the Patriots.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12094227/tom-brady-restructures-contract-give-new-england-patriots-24-million-more-cash

The Bills also have Kiko Alonso up their sleeve.

I'd resign Spikes, and trade Kiko to the Saints defense instead of giving up our 2nd and 3rd round draft picks.

[swiper]

I was thinking just the opposite..he might not want to play for Marrone, or especially Hackett.

He plays in the South and in a dome. He's not coming to Buffalo.

[BillsImpossible]

An interesting comment by espn:

"The Saints allowed 120 more points and 1,253 more yards in 2014 than they did in 2013. They'll need to fix the defense fast as Drew Brees will be 36 to start 2015."

We know we have a D that is leaps above theirs. Is their O that much better than ours? Colston, Stills, Graham and Ingram vs. Watkins, Woods, Chandler (ok, yeah, I know) and FJ/CJ?


http://espn.go.com/nfl/powerrankings/_/year/2014/week/18

Kiko Alonso.

[BillsImpossible]

If the Bills had Drew Brees this year, we'd all be talking about the Bills first playoff game since 1999.

The Bills are a good quarterback, and two guards away from winning the Super Bowl, why not?

Kyle Williams and Mario Williams have 2 top notch years left. Now is the time to think bigger!

POST OF THE YEAR AWARD

[BillsImpossible]

Brees lead the league in passing but couldn't carry his team to the play-offs or a winning record. There is no way the Saints will part way with Brees. Absolutely no way.

They almost have to let Brees go, and get a player or draft picks too. The reason why their defense sucks is because most of the money is on offense.

When it comes to the Bills, most of the money is on defense.

Brees coming to Buffalo and Alonso going to New Orleans could be a match made in football heaven.

If Drew Brees wants to win another Super Bowl, I think his best chance would be in Buffalo provided Doug Whaley signs the best free agent guard on the market and drafts the best offensive lineman available with their 2nd and 3rd round picks.

2 year window for Drew Brees - and the Bills defense.

Best post of the year, awesome idea.

[YardRat]

I'd be willing to consider it if the trade involved players, and not picks, as long as the services of Hughes, Spikes and Searcy were retained prior.

Of course, New Orleans probably wants nothing to do with the Bills after the royal ****ing they took with Byrd.

[BillsImpossible]

I'd be willing to consider it if the trade involved players, and not picks, as long as the services of Hughes, Spikes and Searcy were retained prior.

Of course, New Orleans probably wants nothing to do with the Bills after the royal ****ing they took with Byrd.

The Saints took a Byrd bath, yes...but the Bills need a quarterback, the Saints need help on defense, and Drew Brees wants to win another Super Bowl.

The window of opportunity is over for Brees in New Orleans, and the window of opportunity is wide open in Buffalo.

If Peyton Manning can go from the Colts to the Broncos, Brees can go from the Saints to the Bills.

Not impossible.

[Mr. Cynical]

If Peyton Manning can go from the Colts to the Broncos, Brees can go from the Saints to the Bills.

Not impossible.

That's a great point. The only thing that is different (well not the only thing, but anyway) is that John Elway recruited him. We don't have anyone in the current FO that Brees would likely respect in the same manner, making it a harder sell. That's why Terry really needs to install great football minds at the top to make things like this happen.

[YardRat]

One of the factors that is being overlooked (unless I missed it) that we are all well aware of is the dearth of QB talent available on the market right now, or in the upcoming draft. The Saints are going to trade away Brees and do what? Start McCown for two seasons? Sign Kyle Orton next August? Hell, they couldn't make the playoffs this season in the poorest division in football in decades with Brees, does anybody really think they want to slog through the next two seasons without him?

[The Jokeman]

The Saints took a Byrd bath, yes...but the Bills need a quarterback, the Saints need help on defense, and Drew Brees wants to win another Super Bowl.

The window of opportunity is over for Brees in New Orleans, and the window of opportunity is wide open in Buffalo.

If Peyton Manning can go from the Colts to the Broncos, Brees can go from the Saints to the Bills.

Not impossible.

THe problem is the Saints have their best RB set to be an UFA after this season and Colston is another year older and another year close to being a non starter. Toss in the money they shelling out for their OGs they might have to let one or both go to free up some cap room to assist with a defensive makeover. I don't see Brees winning another Super Bowl if stays with the Saints. That's said I can't see him going anywhere else to end his career.

[BuffaloRedleg]

It may not be the entire discussion, but it's certainly an important factor.

What's it going to take for some to finally realize that QB isn't the end all, be all, and having a decent one doesn't magically improve problem areas of the rest of the team?

He would get killed behind this oline, if somebody doesn't realize that by now after watching 16 games of the past season then they just aren't paying attention or don't know what the hell they are talking about. Or both.

Orton didn't get "killed" behind this O Line, and we almost made the playoffs.

We didn't make the playoffs because of lousy QB play. Most of that QB play had little to do with the offensive line. Orton was just a plain ole' bad QB who couldn't make plays.

Now I'm not saying the O Line shouldn't be beefed up, that should be #2 priority by a long shot. But sorry QB is the most important position in all of sports and it isn't even close.

[Mr. Cynical]

One of the factors that is being overlooked (unless I missed it) that we are all well aware of is the dearth of QB talent available on the market right now, or in the upcoming draft. The Saints are going to trade away Brees and do what? Start McCown for two seasons? Sign Kyle Orton next August? Hell, they couldn't make the playoffs this season in the poorest division in football in decades with Brees, does anybody really think they want to slog through the next two seasons without him?

With a 13 pick this year, and given his mammoth contract, it's not out of the question they might want to bite the bullet now and start that slog. They could shore up a ton with his cap space, and if we trade a Kiko (not saying we should, but as a hypothetical) they can get a foundation in place to begin another run in 2 years. To be honest though I don't see this happening, but it's fun to play with.

[BillsImpossible]

Orton didn't get "killed" behind this O Line, and we almost made the playoffs.

We didn't make the playoffs because of lousy QB play. Most of that QB play had little to do with the offensive line. Orton was just a plain ole' bad QB who couldn't make plays.

Now I'm not saying the O Line shouldn't be beefed up, that should be #2 priority by a long shot. But sorry QB is the most important position in all of sports and it isn't even close.

Hackett has taken a lot of heat in 2014 from the fans, but if every fan had access to the Bills All-22 game footage I don't think anyone would be calling for Hackett's head.

All year long Manuel and Orton missed wide open receivers, or made bad throws.

Sammy Watkins would be going to Hawaii with a good quarterback, and the Bills would be still be playing this weekend.

[Mr. Cynical]

All year long Manuel and Orton missed wide open receivers, or made bad throws.

This is totally true.....but.....the schemes were also very predictable and the run game fell apart as well, so it's hard to defend Hackett either way. Bottom line is the offense was putrid, and he's responsible, so among other coaches, he should be shown the door imo.

[YardRat]

Orton didn't get "killed" behind this O Line, and we almost made the playoffs.

We didn't make the playoffs because of lousy QB play. Most of that QB play had little to do with the offensive line. Orton was just a plain ole' bad QB who couldn't make plays.

Now I'm not saying the O Line shouldn't be beefed up, that should be #2 priority by a long shot. But sorry QB is the most important position in all of sports and it isn't even close.

Neither Orton or EJ showed any willingness to stand in the pocket and deliver, both were prone to dumping the ball into the ground when the pocket heated up. Brees is definitely more mobile and has better escapability, but he's also more willing to take a shot. He'd get killed.

The passing game suffered. The running game suffered. The entire offense suffered. That's the oline play. If the entire offense wasn't a train wreck, just the passing game, I would probably agree with you, but that wasn't the case.

QB is not the most important position in sports. A pitcher can win a game with nobody behind him, theoretically. A QB can't say that.

[BillsImpossible]

This is totally true.....but.....the schemes were also very predictable and the run game fell apart as well, so it's hard to defend Hackett either way. Bottom line is the offense was putrid, and he's responsible, so among other coaches, he should be shown the door imo.

He should be shown the door of a gigantic franchise quarterback opportunity and the offense will be wide open.

$40 million is nothing in a bucket full of billions.

[Mr. Cynical]

He should be shown the door of a gigantic franchise quarterback opportunity and the offense will be wide open.

$40 million is nothing in a bucket full of billions.

I can't support that unfortunately....I'd be extremely worried if a Brees came in and Hackett was still the OC....kind of like giving the keys to a Ferrari to a rhesus monkey. ;)

[BuffaloRedleg]

Neither Orton or EJ showed any willingness to stand in the pocket and deliver, both were prone to dumping the ball into the ground when the pocket heated up. Brees is definitely more mobile and has better escapability, but he's also more willing to take a shot. He'd get killed.

The passing game suffered. The running game suffered. The entire offense suffered. That's the oline play. If the entire offense wasn't a train wreck, just the passing game, I would probably agree with you, but that wasn't the case.

QB is not the most important position in sports. A pitcher can win a game with nobody behind him, theoretically. A QB can't say that.

A pitcher can't hit the ball, and plays what every 4 games, half a game? Not even close.

That's more of a fun point to make than really relevant. Again, nobody is saying we shouldn't work on the O Line. We absolutely should work on the O Line.

Just go ahead and read all of Jeremy White's All-22 game footage and review. Orton is just plain terrible and was the reason we were terrible. He missed so many easy passes and so many easy reads and that often had nothing to do with time. Once again, not saying the offensive line doesn't need to improve. But sorry QB was just terrible in ways that had nothing to do with the O Line.

[YardRat]

A pitcher can't hit the ball, and plays what every 4 games, half a game? Not even close.

1973 just called, something about a whoozit they call a 'designated hitter'.


That's more of a fun point to make than really relevant. Again, nobody is saying we shouldn't work on the O Line. We absolutely should work on the O Line.

Just go ahead and read all of Jeremy White's All-22 game footage and review. Orton is just plain terrible and was the reason we were terrible. He missed so many easy passes and so many easy reads and that often had nothing to do with time. Once again, not saying the offensive line doesn't need to improve. But sorry QB was just terrible in ways that had nothing to do with the O Line.

I've followed White's All-22. I'm not saying Orton, and EJ, didn't play poorly, but the oline played worse. That affected everybody. Success starts in the trenches, there is a reason that is a truism, not just an opinion.

Dallas is making the playoffs for the first time in five years. Did Romo get better? No. Did Murray get better? No. Did their offensive line get better? Absolutely.

[BuffaloRedleg]

1973 just called, something about a whoozit they call a 'designated hitter'.



I've followed White's All-22. I'm not saying Orton, and EJ, didn't play poorly, but the oline played worse. That affected everybody. Success starts in the trenches, there is a reason that is a truism, not just an opinion.

Dallas is making the playoffs for the first time in five years. Did Romo get better? No. Did Murray get better? No. Did their offensive line get better? Absolutely.

I meant that your pitcher doesn't affect your offense because he either doesn't or is terrible at hitting. The QB helps your defense by field position and letting them rest. Somethign like that, who gives a **** about Baseball.

We will never agree then about Orton vs the O Line. I absolutely 100% disagree that the line played worse than Orton. Orton was an absolute abomination and was the reason we didn't make the playoffs. Put even a serviceable QB in there and he makes a lot of those important throws that Orton missed even when not under duress and we make the playoffs.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

You're acting like QB is the team's only issue, when it isn't even the biggest issue. That two year shot is going to cost multiple draft picks in the future, and multiple depth players in the present. That's going to have a much longer affect than just two seasons.

If you don't see QB as the team's biggest issue then we are never going to see eye to eye on this at all. Maybe, maybe if Orton was still here you could make a claim that other needs stand up first, but we only have EJ on the active roster and Tuel on the PS. I am one of the few people who thinks Manuel can be salvaged and I still see that as a massive anchor that will drive our team down.


I have no issue losing Spiller either...even though I would like to keep Hughes, there's a good possibility we won't anyway, and that's going to be another hole that needs to be filled along with multiple on the offensive line, and Brees isn't going to play either.

Maybe...maybe not. Pears can walk, I think we all agree on that. Spikes is going to want some bank, and Searcy may be looking for a deal similar to AW. We don't know that for sure. That's five players just from this squad that would most likely not be coming back, and we haven't even gotten to any guards in FA or having very few draft picks in '15.

Of those 5 guys not coming back, two of them you agree already should be gone anyway. Saying you want Pears to leave and them complaining that we'd lose Pears is ridiculous.

As for Spikes, I like the dude, but he's the same guy he was last year: a two-down run stopping thumper. Last season his best offer was a one year deal from the Bills, why would he suddenly be a hot commodity? Especially since, as DraftBoy put it in another thread, Preston Brown is poised to take his snaps when Alonso returns.

And giving Searcy AW money would be crazy. Giving Aaron Williams Aaron Williams' money was already crazy enough, the guy can't finish seasons. As if right now, AW has the 3rd highest contract on the team, pending whatever happens with Hughes, and likely what will happen with Dareus/Gilmore/Glenn in 2016.


You're once reverting to your own juggling of cap numbers

Yes, I try to introduce actual numbers into the discussion. It's a weakness of mine.


and completely dismissing the possibility that Pegula is going to continue the cash-to-cap philosophy. Fair for conversation, perhaps, but a little naive to reality.

If Pegula intends to run this team cash-to-cap like Ralph did, then we are screwed anyway. Dareus, Gilmore, Glenn, and Hughes alone (assuming we signed them) are going to command north of $100 million in guarantees.


Just generally speaking, as someone else alluded, Drew Brees and New Orleans are tied at the heartstrings...He is to the Saints what Jim Kelly is to the Bills...not just the team, but the city and fan base itself, and there is no way in hell NO is going to jettison him until he just can't play anymore.

Maybe that's the case. On the other hand, Joe Montana and San Francisco were tied at the heartstrings, and he retired on the Chiefs. Johnny Unitas and Baltimore were so tied, and he retired on the Chargers. Brett Favre played for the Vikings and Jets. Peyton is on the Broncos right now. He got cut for god's sakes. Tom Brady just restructured his deal to make it easier to cut him.

Never say never.

And really, my entire thread comes down to a belief that this team + Brees is a super bowl contender. Maybe he's only here for two years, maybe not. But this defense will not stay good forever. Remember when the Bears had the #3 defense in the NFL? That was two years ago. Strike while the iron is hot IMO.


I was thinking just the opposite..he might not want to play for Marrone, or especially Hackett.

Well, that's true too. Was their relationship sour in New Orleans?


Brees lead the league in passing but couldn't carry his team to the play-offs or a winning record. There is no way the Saints will part way with Brees. Absolutely no way.

If Brees had carried his team to the playoffs, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The only reason I would even speculate he could be had is because their season cratered around him.

[swiper]

For the Erik Pears haters... If the Bills let him go, he WILL get another job rather handily.