Schwartz will not be Bills DC per Alex Marvez

[ghz in pittsburgh]

https://twitter.com/alexmarvez/status/554807267825291264

Not surprised.

[feldspar]

https://twitter.com/alexmarvez/status/554807267825291264

Not surprised.

If true, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is, that's extremely weak.

Worst part of the whole deal by a longshot.

I'd hate that.

Dennis Thurman who?

[psubills62]

Can't blame him.

Hard to be worried about the defense, though, given what Rex did in NY. Offense will be the side of the ball that wins or loses games.

[DesertFox24]

I like Schwartz but the talent is still there. What they do with Hughes spikes and searcy will be interesting. Also need to bring in another big dt

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Bryant Charles are ends in his system

[DraftBoy]

Multiple reports citing a difference in philosophies that led to Schwartz turning down the opportunity to stay.

[BleedinGreenNC]

Can't blame him.

Hard to be worried about the defense, though, given what Rex did in NY. Offense will be the side of the ball that wins or loses games.

Do you think he will switch the D to a 3-4?

[BertSquirtgum]

DUMB

[YardRat]

Multiple reports citing a difference in philosophies that led to Schwartz turning down the opportunity to stay.

Geez...no ****.

Big red mark against the Ryan hire for me.

[DesertFox24]

Still shame to see him go I think we all liked him and hoped he would stay. Worst part is Rex will be calling def and I would rather the hc not call plays.

That being said we lost Schwartz but have beat def coach and def play caller in the NFL. Wish schwartz best of luck.

I wonder if this will tarnish marrone more he got a lot of guys fires and unemployeed because he is a dick. Hope he never gets a hc job again that will really bother him more than anything. The fact he made a terrible decision and lost one of 32 jobs and will never get it back

[DraftBoy]

Geez...no ****.

Big red mark against the Ryan hire for me.

It was Schwartz decision in the end. It's not like Ryan didn't want him. Schwartz walked away.

[jimmifli]

Now the equation changes.

Marrone/Hackett/Schwart2

vs

Rex/Roman/Thurman (probably)

[justasportsfan]

BB is smiling

[YardRat]

It was Schwartz decision in the end. It's not like Ryan didn't want him. Schwartz walked away.

If Ryan really wanted him, there wouldn't be a 'difference in philosophies'.

"Jim, your defense is great, I wish you would stay, that's your side of the ball keep doing what you're doing. I'll work on the HC responsibilities and maybe stick my nose in Roman's business a little bit since offense is where we need to see the improvement."

Hell, that's not hard at all.

[feldspar]

Well, how many of Ryan's boys from the Jets are expected to come to Buffalo?

I'd like to keep guys like Pepper Johnson, and I sure wouldn't want his QB coach David Lee AGAIN. Remember about how he was supposed to fix Fitzpatrick, who was much worse that year? We gotta revisit THAT?

[DraftBoy]

If Ryan really wanted him, there wouldn't be a 'difference in philosophies'.

"Jim, your defense is great, I wish you would stay, that's your side of the ball keep doing what you're doing. I'll work on the HC responsibilities and maybe stick my nose in Roman's business a little bit since offense is where we need to see the improvement."

Hell, that's not hard at all.

That makes absolutely no sense and no coach in their right mind would ever say that.

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Well, how many of Ryan's boys from the Jets are expected to come to Buffalo?

I'd like to keep guys like Pepper Johnson, and I sure wouldn't want his QB coach David Lee AGAIN. Remember about how he was supposed to fix Fitzpatrick, who was much worse that year? We gotta revisit THAT?

Sounds like Pepper Johnson may be going to NYG to be their new DC.

[justasportsfan]

Back to the 3-4 again. Didn't Mario and Bradham struggle in the 3-4.Dareus played best under Schwartz

[feldspar]

If Ryan really wanted him, there wouldn't be a 'difference in philosophies'.

"Jim, your defense is great, I wish you would stay, that's your side of the ball keep doing what you're doing. I'll work on the HC responsibilities and maybe stick my nose in Roman's business a little bit since offense is where we need to see the improvement."

Hell, that's not hard at all.

"Rex Ryan's defense."

How many Head Coaches in this league are specifically known for one side of the ball more than the coordinator responsible for that side of the ball? Does that question make sense?

I mean, maybe maybe people say "Chip Kelly's offense" for Philadelphia, but I just don't get it. What's the OC there for then? Gotta be some sort of puppet?

[YardRat]

That makes absolutely no sense and no coach in their right mind would ever say that.

Bull****. It's exactly what successful coaches do. Let their coordinators do their job, especially if it's proven.

This is exactly the reason an offensive leaning HC should have been hired, not just the guy Pegula and Whaley thought was 'the best HC, period'.

Trying to 'fix' what isn't broken, instead of just what is, is a poor 'business' model destined for short term failure, and questionable at best for the long term.

If this team is going to switch back to a 34 base, a defense that was built to succeed under a different system (and did) and was solid front to back, including depth, all of a sudden has a lot of holes.

[feldspar]

Sounds like Pepper Johnson may be going to NYG to be their new DC.

I can live with that, if true.

At least it makes sense to me. Gotta let guys go who make a step up in these situations.

What I don't understand is taking a step down at these positions.

[BuffaloRedleg]

It's going to be fine.

There aren't many coaches I would trust over Schwartz defensively, but Rex Ryan is one of them.

I would have said that when he was the Jets coach as well.

Let's not forget that the problem here is offense. The defense will be fine.

[feldspar]

It's going to be fine.

There aren't many coaches I would trust over Schwartz defensively, but Rex Ryan is one of them.

I would have said that when he was the Jets coach as well.

Let's not forget that the problem here is offense. The defense will be fine.

Rex Ryan is really going to be the one running the defense then? If so, won't that distract him from the offense, the rest of the team, and the overall picture? Honest question. Maybe that has been one of the problems in the past with Rex Ryan's teams?

What would Dennis Thurman be for then? A yes man? Honest question.

I don't know how **** like this is supposed to work, honestly. There is nothing wrong with this defense worth changing, really.

[Patti120]

Definitely sucks but Personnel is basically the same as when Pettine was here so we just need to hope that Rex can find a way to stop the run with the players we have. Offseason and draft need to be focused on offense.

[Bill Cody]

If we go back to the 3-4 I predict 3 wins

[feldspar]

If we go back to the 3-4 I predict 3 wins

You can't be serious about going THAT far with it, can you?

Schemes aren't that static, and we have the personnel. Not to mention that we can't help but have a better offensive scheme going on, pretty much.

A long way to go until next year. Hell, THIS year ain't even over yet. PLENTY will happen in the offseason.

[Jry44]

If we go back to the 3-4 I predict 3 wins


Remember that Pettine guy that had this defense playing at such a high level that he got a head coaching job the next year? Well, guess who's defense he ran? Yeah.... the defense will be fine, if not better with Rex. I'm not worried about this at all. To say that we will win 3 wins with one of the best defensive minded coaches in the league working with arguably the leagues best collection of talent on that side of the ball is ludicrous!

[wolfpack]

If we go back to the 3-4 I predict 3 wins

Care to explain?

[HAMMER]

Looks like some of you Ryan supporters are starting to grouse already, hmm.

[paladin warrior]

Darn Damn it . I like him alots with Def Coach and who is the hell Thurman ??

[Mr. Pink]

This should surprise no one.

[feldspar]

Looks like some of you Ryan supporters are starting to grouse already, hmm.

LOL at "Ryan supporters."

May as well not support the Bills at all if you want to draw a line in the sand at this point. I guess that's where you're at? Can't wait to see what actually happens?

[wolfpack]

Darn Damn it . I like him alots with Def Coach and who is the hell Thurman ??

YES!!!

[Bill Cody]

Base D under Pettine was a 4-3. Mario Williams can't play LB. Dare is is not a NT. It won't work.

[HAMMER]

LOL at "Ryan supporters."

May as well not support the Bills at all if you want to draw a line in the sand at this point. I guess that's where you're at? Can't wait to see what actually happens?

You're crying like a ***** one day in. LMAO.

[Meathead]

If Ryan really wanted him, there wouldn't be a 'difference in philosophies'.

"Jim, your defense is great, I wish you would stay, that's your side of the ball keep doing what you're doing. I'll work on the HC responsibilities and maybe stick my nose in Roman's business a little bit since offense is where we need to see the improvement."

Hell, that's not hard at all.

true but we dont know that he didnt

schwartz strikes me as one of those eccentrically brilliant minds that can be unpredictable in situations just like that. there were reports he said he was happy as a dc, which could have been made up but probably were at least based on something he said. i can easily see him saying one thing then being pissed he didnt get the job. you cant entirely blame him, but he didnt even get a sniff anywhere else either so he shoulda taken the hinty hint hint. that would seem consistent with that personality type too, imo

i definitely agree its a hit against the hire. but that whole defensive coaching unit has been quite impressive for a long time, im quite relieved raiding what we can there is our fall back position

[Jry44]

Base D under Pettine was a 4-3. Mario Williams can't play LB. Dare is is not a NT. It won't work.

It was a hybrid, which is what he learned from Rex Ryan.

[Frenchman]

Well Rex is trying to build up his coaching staff. Give him a little time.

[Buffalogic]

We were good with pettine, we were great with schwartz and we'll be great with rex. Our players are too good not to be.

Our linebacker unit which was a pile of pure **** just 2 years ago it's suddenly a stregth. We can now resign spikes and play kiko, spikes, brown and probably Hughes at lb on every play. That should be incredible.

[feldspar]

You're crying like a ***** one day in. LMAO.

I believe that's exactly what I said to you.

Sure you aren't all ****ed up on cough syrup or something?

[kingJofNYC]

Rex is truly multiple. He'll play a Bear front with 3 DL, and even fronts all the same, he doesn't give a ****. 3-4/4-3 it's all the same, there's little difference between a 3-4 under and a 4-3 under. Heck you have NE playing 4-3 odd fronts, same with Seattle, Seattle even two gaps in their 4-3. Don't make it a bigger deal than it is, plus we played this D with Pettine.

[HAMMER]

I believe that's exactly what I said to you.

Sure you aren't all ****ed up on cough syrup or something?

Whiskey and Coors. Don't lie, you're crying already.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

"Rex Ryan's defense."

How many Head Coaches in this league are specifically known for one side of the ball more than the coordinator responsible for that side of the ball? Does that question make sense?

I mean, maybe maybe people say "Chip Kelly's offense" for Philadelphia, but I just don't get it. What's the OC there for then? Gotta be some sort of puppet?

Without googling, can you even remember who the Bills' OC was under Chan Gailey?

Some coaches are more hands-on for one side of the ball, and Rex is definitely one of them. I can't see Schwartz staying under Rex, especially since they have totally different philosophies.

[feldspar]

Without googling, can you even remember who the Bills' OC was under Chan Gailey?

Some coaches are more hands-on for one side of the ball, and Rex is definitely one of them. I can't see Schwartz staying under Rex, especially since they have totally different philosophies.

I understand, but I just don't get it.

Does this now insulate Dennis Thurman from all criticism or praise for how the defense operates? But I guess my point is this...what good is a guy who is given a prominent title if he can't be blamed for anything? LOL. Or even can't be given praise.

But yeah, I remember Curtis Modkins under Gailey, but I don't ever remember saying "that dirty Modkins" or "that Modkins is doing a great job." See what I mean? What did that guy REALLY do? What will Dennis Thurman REALLY do? And does the Head Coach having such a huge role on one side of the ball affect the other side or the bigger picture? I don't know, but I see how it could.

I remember how Pettine wanted to "get out from under Rex Ryan's shadow," but I guess he really called the plays at some point. Looks like he made the right move. What ever happened to Modkins?

[HHURRICANE]

You guys realize that Ryan's defenses over the last 5 years are some of best in the league. Did Schwartz coach the Lions and Bills D simultaneously this year because it didn't look like the Lions missed a beat without him there.

The D scheme will need to be better and it might have to be without Hughes. Ryan doesn't need Schwartz and I'm positive that we would have made the playoffs this year had Ryan been the HC.

[swiper]

Schwartz should be the HC in Buffalo.

Damn you Arthur Blank for not getting the Ryan deal done.

[swiper]

Back to the 3-4 again. Didn't Mario and Bradham struggle in the 3-4.Dareus played best under Schwartz

You'll never see a #4 defense again under Ryan.

[YardRat]

true but we dont know that he didnt

schwartz strikes me as one of those eccentrically brilliant minds that can be unpredictable in situations just like that. there were reports he said he was happy as a dc, which could have been made up but probably were at least based on something he said. i can easily see him saying one thing then being pissed he didnt get the job. you cant entirely blame him, but he didnt even get a sniff anywhere else either so he shoulda taken the hinty hint hint. that would seem consistent with that personality type too, imo

i definitely agree its a hit against the hire. but that whole defensive coaching unit has been quite impressive for a long time, im quite relieved raiding what we can there is our fall back position

If he did, than a difference in philosophy would be moot. I see Night Train started a thread alleging Schwartz decided to move on because his contribution in the future would be minimized because of Rex's defensive reputation. That makes a little more sense.

Schwartz did get a sniff very early, from DC, and they were denied the access. If Jim doesn't get a HC offer (which admittedly he might not), he'll definitely land somewhere as DC. I just hope it isn't NYC.

[RedEyE]

All this 3-4, 4-3 nonsense...most defenses are hybrid these days anyway. If Ryan has such a great defensive mind it seems to me he will listen to the players, take their opinions into consideration and go with what works best.

I have more of an issue with the lack of continuity involving this team. I'd of preferred Schwartz stay on. I would have been happy with him taking over the team quite honestly.

[DraftBoy]

Bull****. It's exactly what successful coaches do. Let their coordinators do their job, especially if it's proven.

This is exactly the reason an offensive leaning HC should have been hired, not just the guy Pegula and Whaley thought was 'the best HC, period'.

Trying to 'fix' what isn't broken, instead of just what is, is a poor 'business' model destined for short term failure, and questionable at best for the long term.

If this team is going to switch back to a 34 base, a defense that was built to succeed under a different system (and did) and was solid front to back, including depth, all of a sudden has a lot of holes.

:rofl:

Well done reversing your point. Which started off as, regardless that Rex was the HC (and one hell of a defensive coach mind you) he should just bow down to Schwartz and let him do what he wants. Nevermind that schematically it doesn't fit with what Ryan wants or has really ever done. Sure I bet there are tons of examples of guys doing that before...can you present a few?

We should of hired who they thought was the best coach period, fans getting all butt hurt because we changing the DC is just a sad, and quite humorous, byproduct. Social Media was a riot last night for the record. People literally denouncing their fanhood over this. Absolutely hysterical.

Who said it didn't have holes going into next year anyways? Do we not still have an aging DT in Kyle Williams, a free agent DE to replace in Jerry Hughes, a decision to make on renewing Searcy and/or Spikes, an attempt to upgrade A. Williams, and needed depth in multiple spots?

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Without googling, can you even remember who the Bills' OC was under Chan Gailey?

Some coaches are more hands-on for one side of the ball, and Rex is definitely one of them. I can't see Schwartz staying under Rex, especially since they have totally different philosophies.

Curtis Modkins, came over from Arizona I believe.

[DraftBoy]

Schwartz did get a sniff very early, from DC, and they were denied the access. If Jim doesn't get a HC offer (which admittedly he might not), he'll definitely land somewhere as DC. I just hope it isn't NYC.

Which multiple people defended as "the right thing to do". Hysterical.

[Mahdi]

Personally I prefer a defense that is a bit more multiple and attacks more.

Schwartz did great with this D but I feel it has more potential.

This unit should be #1 overall defense in most categories based on the talent we have.

Let's not forget that although we played a good defensive system some very basic offenses hurt us that really shouldn't have such as KC, Oakland, Houston and Miami.

Rex would have put a lot more pressure on those teams with the talent we have. I'm interested to see what Rex can do with some creative play-calling.

[Dr. Who]

I'm not worried about the defense. Too much talent to fail and Ryan is a great defensive coach.
It still comes back to can the offense be improved to at least average. That is enough to compete for the division.

[Night Train]

I'm not worried about the defense. Too much talent to fail and Ryan is a great defensive coach.
It still comes back to can the offense be improved to at least average. That is enough to compete for the division.

Agreed. The D isn't a big concern, with talent showing.

The O on the other hand is the key to the off-season. Adding QB's, some bulk in the OL. I'll give it a chance, with actual games almost 8 months away.

This doom and gloom crap..in mid-January. :rolleyes:

[jamze132]

The best defense is a good offense...

[Meathead]

what does schwartz getting asked to interview for a dc job have to do with his hc prospects?

the bills said no to him interviewing for another dc job bc its a lateral move, which is usually the defacto standard in the nfl for allowing a move. you cant have ppl moving for the same job or else everyone would always be raiding everyone else every freakin season. so everybody tacitly agrees that if you are under contract you can only leave if you get a promotion to go elsewhere, unless your boss is fired. of course teams and coaches can do otherwise, for example be disgruntled and make a public stink or whatever, but they risk ruining their reputation if they do

since marrone quit, the bills are entirely within their right to retain schwartz, but its a gray area morally/professionally since the bills gave marrone that option. they did the right thing by turning down the request to interview him for other dc positions until they had their hc in place. once thats done and everybody gets to confab about whats going on, then everybody can make up their minds if they want this relationship to continue (ie. schwartz staying). since its a gray area, the bills cant really require him to stay or they will likely look like the unreasonable ones, after all the boss he signed on with is gone. and thats where we appear to be right now

the entire point was that schwartz was NOT getting any interest for a hc job this year. none. since he hasnt had a single interview for a hc job outside of the bills, its extremely unlikely at this point that he would. i cant even see how that would happen, since he could have interviewed for a hc job all along. what, is some team with an open coaching job suddenly going to vault schwartz to the top of their list after entertaining all these other coaches and not even bothering to ask the bills to talk to him?

so hes going to be a dc somewhere. assuming rex told him he could run the defense as he saw fit, i cant see any benefit schwartz gets from leaving

which brings me to the only logical conclusion:

B.H.S.

Butt Hurt Syndrome

[The Jokeman]

The best defense is a good offense...

As long as your offense is sustaining long clock killing drives and scoring TDs I agree 100% with you. That drive that Luck lead the Colts on late helped them win the playoff.

[cookie G]

:rofl:

Well done reversing your point. Which started off as, regardless that Rex was the HC (and one hell of a defensive coach mind you) he should just bow down to Schwartz and let him do what he wants. Nevermind that schematically it doesn't fit with what Ryan wants or has really ever done. Sure I bet there are tons of examples of guys doing that before...can you present a few?

We should of hired who they thought was the best coach period, fans getting all butt hurt because we changing the DC is just a sad, and quite humorous, byproduct. Social Media was a riot last night for the record. People literally denouncing their fanhood over this. Absolutely hysterical.

Who said it didn't have holes going into next year anyways? Do we not still have an aging DT in Kyle Williams, a free agent DE to replace in Jerry Hughes, a decision to make on renewing Searcy and/or Spikes, an attempt to upgrade A. Williams, and needed depth in multiple spots?

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"Ive coached better defenses than Buffalo's"

~~ Greggo Williams


Is there a better answer than "its not what Rex likes to do?"

I hope so...because that's not enough.

[DraftBoy]

"Ive coached better defenses than Buffalo's"

~~ Greggo Williams


Is there a better answer than "its not what Rex likes to do?"

I hope so...because that's not enough.

It's actually more than enough, but that's not really the point.

[cookie G]

It's actually more than enough, but that's not really the point.

You could have at least given me a "because I said so".


But we'll go with "because..."

[YardRat]

:rofl:

Well done reversing your point. Which started off as, regardless that Rex was the HC (and one hell of a defensive coach mind you) he should just bow down to Schwartz and let him do what he wants. Nevermind that schematically it doesn't fit with what Ryan wants or has really ever done. Sure I bet there are tons of examples of guys doing that before...can you present a few?

Success isn't attained by breaking down what is working and starting from scratch, it is by continuing the best aspects and improving the areas that need improvement. Regardless of philosophy of the HC. Yes, this is a unique situation to a certain point because most new coaches come into a situation where everything needs to be improved...they don't usually inherit one side of the equation this close to working toward their potential, which is high. Mike Tomlin is a guy that immediately comes to mind as far as contemporaries, he seemed to do 'OK' with Pittsburgh. Billick is another one, if you want a blast from the past.


We should of hired who they thought was the best coach period, fans getting all butt hurt because we changing the DC is just a sad, and quite humorous, byproduct. Social Media was a riot last night for the record. People literally denouncing their fanhood over this. Absolutely hysterical.

The 'best coach, period', IMO, is the one that can 'fit' with what the team has that is working, and once again, improve the areas that need improving. This 'best coach period' mindset is a load of ****. Do you honestly think Rex Ryan was the best coach available? Do you even think he's the 'best fit'? Hell no, on both counts. Do you really believe that Thurman is going to be an upgrade over Schwartz? Anybody that thinks this defense isn't going to regress this next season just hasn't been paying attention. We've seen how this roster performs under other schemes, and for the most part it isn't really pretty. WTF, do you think Dareus or KW are magically going to turn into a solid NT-type plugger in the middle, when they really weren't effective at it before? Is Mario going to all of a sudden 'get' playing off the line and have coverage responsibilities?


Who said it didn't have holes going into next year anyways? Do we not still have an aging DT in Kyle Williams, a free agent DE to replace in Jerry Hughes, a decision to make on renewing Searcy and/or Spikes, an attempt to upgrade A. Williams, and needed depth in multiple spots?

There are less concerns about the starters and depth if they were to stay in the same system. A solid front seven, even without Hughes and/or Spikes, has now become 'Whoa...we really need another DT, another DE, and probably another LBer." Two weeks ago the priority was keeping the defense intact and focusing on upgrading the offense...now it's upgrading positions on offense and defense. Two words...stoo pid.

[YardRat]

We were a John Gruden/Brad Johnson scenario away from being serious contenders, and now we're basically going to start from scratch. Good luck with that.

[DraftBoy]

You could have at least given me a "because I said so".


But we'll go with "because..."

It's only Tuesday, try me again on Wednesday.

[DraftBoy]

Success isn't attained by breaking down what is working and starting from scratch, it is by continuing the best aspects and improving the areas that need improvement. Regardless of philosophy of the HC. Yes, this is a unique situation to a certain point because most new coaches come into a situation where everything needs to be improved...they don't usually inherit one side of the equation this close to working toward their potential, which is high. Mike Tomlin is a guy that immediately comes to mind as far as contemporaries, he seemed to do 'OK' with Pittsburgh. Billick is another one, if you want a blast from the past.

No one has talked about breaking anything down and starting from scratch.


The 'best coach, period', IMO, is the one that can 'fit' with what the team has that is working, and once again, improve the areas that need improving. This 'best coach period' mindset is a load of ****. Do you honestly think Rex Ryan was the best coach available? Do you even think he's the 'best fit'? Hell no, on both counts. Do you really believe that Thurman is going to be an upgrade over Schwartz? Anybody that thinks this defense isn't going to regress this next season just hasn't been paying attention. We've seen how this roster performs under other schemes, and for the most part it isn't really pretty. WTF, do you think Dareus or KW are magically going to turn into a solid NT-type plugger in the middle, when they really weren't effective at it before? Is Mario going to all of a sudden 'get' playing off the line and have coverage responsibilities?

I don't honestly have an opinion. He wasn't my top choice but I'm not going to throw a temper tantrum about it either like a lot of fans have thus far. I think he's a fine fit honestly. Not really concerned about Thurman, he's not going to run the D. I think Dareus will be fine, KW would probably be more effective moving forward in a situational role given his advanced age. You seem to be under the impression that Ryan runs a classic 34 which isn't the case. Mario doesn't have to play off the line. Do you even know what you the differences will be?


There are less concerns about the starters and depth if they were to stay in the same system. A solid front seven, even without Hughes and/or Spikes, has now become 'Whoa...we really need another DT, another DE, and probably another LBer." Two weeks ago the priority was keeping the defense intact and focusing on upgrading the offense...now it's upgrading positions on offense and defense. Two words...stoo pid.

You're ability to ignore things and exploit others is by far the most entertaining part of this entire coaching switch. Two weeks ago the priority was finding a new HC and winning football games. I'm sorry you seem to have lost that as a goal for this team.

[YardRat]

No one has talked about breaking anything down and starting from scratch.

And yet they are. The offense certainly needs it, the defense should be left alone.


I don't honestly have an opinion. He wasn't my top choice but I'm not going to throw a temper tantrum about it either like a lot of fans have thus far. I think he's a fine fit honestly. Not really concerned about Thurman, he's not going to run the D. I think Dareus will be fine, KW would probably be more effective moving forward in a situational role given his advanced age. You seem to be under the impression that Ryan runs a classic 34 which isn't the case. Mario doesn't have to play off the line. Do you even know what you the differences will be?

No opinion on what? The best HC? The best fit?

So Dareus regressing from dominant back to just 'fine' is OK? I was actually pimping for KW's role to be reduced prior to this season. I might have been a season premature, but if the switch is back to a more Pettine-type philosophy it'll certainly be due next season.

Nobody runs a 'classic' 34 anymore, really.

Which differences would you like to discuss? The bases? The shells? The underneath coverages? The blitz philosophy? It really isn't rocket science, all one has to do is compare 2014 to 2013.


You're ability to ignore things and exploit others is by far the most entertaining part of this entire coaching switch. Two weeks ago the priority was finding a new HC and winning football games. I'm sorry you seem to have lost that as a goal for this team.

That's not even a decent attempt to draw the strawman into the discussion.

You know Ryan wasn't the 'best HC' available.
You know he isn't the 'best fit'.
You know how this roster performs under Schwartz and under a Ryan disciple, and the difference isn't insignificant.
You know the switch creates needs that didn't have to be created.

Granted, it certainly wasn't the worst hire, but you know it wasn't the best, either.

[DraftBoy]

And yet they are. The offense certainly needs it, the defense should be left alone.

No they aren't.


So Dareus regressing from dominant back to just 'fine' is OK?
Come on, at least let TD present his shtick before you start touting it as well.


Nobody runs a 'classic' 34 anymore, really.

Which differences would you like to discuss? The bases? The shells? The underneath coverages? The blitz philosophy? It really isn't rocket science, all one has to do is compare 2014 to 2013.

Any and all.


That's not even a decent attempt to draw the strawman into the discussion.

Like I said its only Tuesday.

In your opinion the only good hire was one that kept Schwartz. I'm sorry but I'm not buying that type of philosophy

[YardRat]

No they aren't.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree for the moment, and let the 2015 season play out to see the results.


Come on, at least let TD present his shtick before you start touting it as well.


You're the one that said Dareus will be 'fine'. Did you mean to say he will continue to get better, regardless of scheme and coaching?


Any and all.

Schwartz's base is pretty simple, the line disrupts the blocking/sets the edge and the LBers flow to the hole, or the ball. The reads are simpler, the responsibilities fewer. Ryan's base requires more squatting and holding ground by the interior linemen (depending on their pre-snap reads), and LBer/ends with more varied expectations (sometimes dropping into coverage). Swallowing blocks is neither Dareus' or KW's strongest point, and neither Hughes (who I believe is gone anyway) or Mario are exactly stellar in coverage. If this defense has to revert to a scheme where KW is 'guessing' on running plays and Mario has to pick up a RB coming out of the backfield again (see 2013) I wouldn't expect any different results than what we saw with Pettine.

Your turn.




Like I said its only Tuesday.

In your opinion the only good hire was one that kept Schwartz. I'm sorry but I'm not buying that type of philosophy

I'll accept that criticism...it is my opinion that the best hire would've been the one that kept the defense intact for another season or two, players and staff.

[DraftBoy]

You're the one that said Dareus will be 'fine'. Did you mean to say he will continue to get better, regardless of scheme and coaching?

No I think he'll continue to be dominant. Which he was under both Pettine and Schwartz.


Schwartz's base is pretty simple, the line disrupts the blocking/sets the edge and the LBers flow to the hole, or the ball. The reads are simpler, the responsibilities fewer. Ryan's base requires more squatting and holding ground by the interior linemen (depending on their pre-snap reads), and LBer/ends with more varied expectations (sometimes dropping into coverage). Swallowing blocks is neither Dareus' or KW's strongest point, and neither Hughes (who I believe is gone anyway) or Mario are exactly stellar in coverage. If this defense has to revert to a scheme where KW is 'guessing' on running plays and Mario has to pick up a RB coming out of the backfield again (see 2013) I wouldn't expect any different results than what we saw with Pettine.

Neither Hughes or Mario are going to be asked to drop. They are going to run a 34 under with the "DL" becoming Mario at DE, Dareus at NT, Williams at DT, and Lawson or another option at OLB. Agreed that its not their strong suit, I think you'll see us add a big NT prospect in the draft to help with that. The defense looks a lot better when you have ILB who actually know how to fill and and understand that they can't pick the same lanes as the DE and NT which they did a lot under Pettine. Now do we have those ILB's? I dunno, I'm assuming its Kiko and Brown? That I'm not sure about right now. What we do get in Alonso and Brown though is two down hill attacking LB's who should put up huge numbers in this scheme.

[YardRat]

No I think he'll continue to be dominant. Which he was under both Pettine and Schwartz.

Fair enough. That's better than just 'fine'.


Neither Hughes or Mario are going to be asked to drop. They are going to run a 34 under with the "DL" becoming Mario at DE, Dareus at NT, Williams at DT, and Lawson or another option at OLB. Agreed that its not their strong suit, I think you'll see us add a big NT prospect in the draft to help with that. The defense looks a lot better when you have ILB who actually know how to fill and and understand that they can't pick the same lanes as the DE and NT which they did a lot under Pettine. Now do we have those ILB's? I dunno, I'm assuming its Kiko and Brown? That I'm not sure about right now. What we do get in Alonso and Brown though is two down hill attacking LB's who should put up huge numbers in this scheme.

Mario is going to be on one side, Hughes (or whoever) will man the other. Either is going to be expected to drop at times, depending on the formation, motion, their reads etc. Both ends need that versatility to contribute to a Ryan defense if it is going to be successful. Re:ILB's- Brown, maybe...but not Kiko. He already proved in 2013 he is a liability against the run in that role. Pettine's biggest issue in 2013 was stopping the run up the middle, and much of that can be attributed to both KW and Kiko being too light in the ass to engage and react, instead of 'ducking and chucking', along with Byrd being piss-poor in run support. Schwartz fixed that with a scheme that (fortunately for him and us) fit KW's strengths, adding Spikes, and plugging in AW (mostly, but also Searcy) in Byrd's role. A return to Pettine's system brings back two of the issues (KW and Kiko).

If Ryan is going to have any chance of not suffering the same fate as Pettine, he's going to need Spikes back (or at least bring in Harris, I think I saw someone mention he was a FA but haven't looked it up myself), play Brown predominantly on the inside, and move the **** out of Kiko all over the place. I for one don't want to see Kiko manning the middle most of the time again.

[pmoon6]

Bull****. It's exactly what successful coaches do. Let their coordinators do their job, especially if it's proven.

This is exactly the reason an offensive leaning HC should have been hired, not just the guy Pegula and Whaley thought was 'the best HC, period'.

Trying to 'fix' what isn't broken, instead of just what is, is a poor 'business' model destined for short term failure, and questionable at best for the long term.

If this team is going to switch back to a 34 base, a defense that was built to succeed under a different system (and did) and was solid front to back, including depth, all of a sudden has a lot of holes.There is an exception. Tom Landry prepared every offensive and defensive game plan.

[HHURRICANE]

Rex Ryan's success on defense (2005-14)
Year Team Total defense Run defense Pass Defense
2005 Ravens 5th 9th 8th
2006 Ravens 1st 2nd 6th
2007 Ravens 6th 2nd 20th
2008 Ravens 2nd 3rd 2nd
2009 Jets 1st 8th 1st
2010 Jets 3rd 3rd 6th
2011 Jets 5th 13th 5th
2012 Jets 8th 26th 2nd
2013 Jets 11th 3rd 22nd
2014 Jets 6th 4th 14th
NFL.com

[DraftBoy]

Fair enough. That's better than just 'fine'.

Well if we're going to try and nitpick the meaning of words this is going to take us a while...


Mario is going to be on one side, Hughes (or whoever) will man the other. Either is going to be expected to drop at times, depending on the formation, motion, their reads etc. Both ends need that versatility to contribute to a Ryan defense if it is going to be successful. Re:ILB's- Brown, maybe...but not Kiko. He already proved in 2013 he is a liability against the run in that role. Pettine's biggest issue in 2013 was stopping the run up the middle, and much of that can be attributed to both KW and Kiko being too light in the ass to engage and react, instead of 'ducking and chucking', along with Byrd being piss-poor in run support. Schwartz fixed that with a scheme that (fortunately for him and us) fit KW's strengths, adding Spikes, and plugging in AW (mostly, but also Searcy) in Byrd's role. A return to Pettine's system brings back two of the issues (KW and Kiko).

If Ryan is going to have any chance of not suffering the same fate as Pettine, he's going to need Spikes back (or at least bring in Harris, I think I saw someone mention he was a FA but haven't looked it up myself), play Brown predominantly on the inside, and move the **** out of Kiko all over the place. I for one don't want to see Kiko manning the middle most of the time again.

No, Mario is going to be a hand in the dirt DL, while Hughes (or whomever) is going to be a standup LB. There are large disparities in those two positions and responsibilities in the 34 under. The only time Mario would drop into coverage is in a designed zone blitz, whereas the SOLB is going to drop more often depending on formation, situation, and blitz call. The traditional ends in the Ryan defense are the stand up OLB's, not the hand in the dirt DE which is what Mario would predominantly be if I'm recalling Pettine's defense right.

I'm not sure Kiko fits outside in this scheme. I agree he has some run liability issues because he bites too hard on fakes and over pursues, but his best attribute is shooting gaps and getting into the backfield. Also as the ILB his ability to drop into coverage and make plays would be useful as well. Maybe if they play him at WOLB playing off Mario it would work for him. I'll be interested to see what they do with him specifically. Also Bradham who is a classic 43 OLB, whose fit in a 34 I'm also not sure about.

Aaron Williams is not a good run defender, I'm not sure why you like him so much. His angles suck and he's just not a good tackler. Searcy though really came on as an in the box safety last year. He's a free agent though and Ryan prefers bigger safeties for that in the box role. Personally I would to see them go after Nate Allen in free agency. He's a big SS who can run, hit, and make plays in the defensive backfield. Ideal addition for this D.

I also agree though that bringing back Spikes or adding Harris (who is a FA) is a large need.