Rex Ryan's defensive genius cred...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Rex was the DC for the Ravens for 4 seasons...

Here are some of the guys that played for him...

Ray Lewis (HOF MLB, one of 5 greatest MLBs to play the game), ED Reed, (HOF SS, one of 5 greatest safeties to play the game), Haloti Ngata (pro bowl), Trevor Pryce (Pro Bowl), Terrell Suggs (Pro Bowl) Samari Rolle, (Pro Bowl), Bart Scott (Pro Bowl), Chris McCallister (Pro Bowl).

And these are just the famous guys. The rest were pretty great too.

in 2005, the Ravens gave up 299 pts. Ranked 10th. (Kyle Boller qb)

2006, 201 pts, ranked 1st. (Steve McNair qb)

2007, 384 pts, ranked 22nd. (Kyle Boller qb)

2008, 244 pts, ranked 3rd... (Joe Flacco qb)


See a pattern?

If we don't get a decent qb to protect Rexy's D, they aren't gonna impress.

The D won't be able to protect a bad qb, the way Schwart2' D did last year...

[Historian]

Maybe we can finally land Ngata...

[justasportsfan]

until they find a qb , IMO they are looking to let Romans running game protect the D

[Bill Cody]

Rex was the DC for the Ravens for 4 seasons...

Here are some of the guys that played for him...

Ray Lewis (HOF MLB, one of 5 greatest MLBs to play the game), ED Reed, (HOF SS, one of 5 greatest safeties to play the game), Haloti Ngata (pro bowl), Trevor Pryce (Pro Bowl), Terrell Suggs (Pro Bowl) Samari Rolle, (Pro Bowl), Bart Scott (Pro Bowl), Chris McCallister (Pro Bowl).

And these are just the famous guys. The rest were pretty great too.

in 2005, the Ravens gave up 299 pts. Ranked 10th. (Kyle Boller qb)

2006, 201 pts, ranked 1st. (Steve McNair qb)

2007, 384 pts, ranked 22nd. (Kyle Boller qb)

2008, 244 pts, ranked 3rd... (Joe Flacco qb)


See a pattern?

If we don't get a decent qb to protect Rexy's D, they aren't gonna impress.

The D won't be able to protect a bad qb, the way Schwart2' D did last year...

Well Flacco is under contract and McNair is dead so cross those options off

[Joe Fo Sho]

So...a ****ty offense screws over a good defense? Thanks for breaking new ground, Copernicus.

[Meathead]

i thought the romans used chariots

[feldspar]

See a pattern?

If we don't get a decent qb to protect Rexy's D, they aren't gonna impress.

The D won't be able to protect a bad qb, the way Schwart2' D did last year...

LOL, you came to this conclusion based on Rex's DC stats in Baltimore? Did you even bother to look up Schwart2's defensive stats when he was DC at Tennessee?

Here is how Schwart2's defenses ranked in terms of points allowed when he was DC with the Titans:

2001: 25th
2002: 11th
2003: 13th
2004: 30th
2005: 29th
2006: 31st
2007: 8th
2008: 2nd

Do you want to rethink your conclusion?

And Schwart2 and Ryan BOTH had McNair as their QB. Schwart2 had him for basically 5 years (he was hurt for half of one season). During that time, Schwart2's defenses were ranked 25th, 11th, 13th, 30th, and 29th in terms of points allowed. Meanwhile, Rex was DC for the Ravens when McNair was the QB, and the Ravens were ranked 1st overall in terms of points allowed that year. McNair was just about done at that point, too. BTW, McNair started 6 games for Baltimore in 2007...that's when he was REALLY done for good. If you want to compare, compare apples to apples.

I don't think too many people were going around calling Flacco too good of a QB in 2008 when he was a ROOKIE, either.

I could go on, but that's plenty enough. Your whole argument falls apart, even if it wasn't so ridiculously narrow in scope to draw conclusions.

[djjimkelly]

RELAX rex is a premier defensive mind no doubt the D will play at a high level throughout his tenure

the O will define this REX team in a few years

and relax till then the D is not what anyone of us should be worrying about

[BuffaloRedleg]

Seeing as though we didn't make the playoffs I don't agree that Schwartz's defense did a good job of "protecting" our terrible QB.

Brilliant observation that we'll need a QB to be competitive, as well.

Keep grasping at straws.

[trapezeus]

i thought fletch left, but i guess he was spartacus all along.

[jamze132]

Here's a mindblowing stat for you to do the research on...

Compare the number of wins and losses when your punt catcher has more touches than your kick returner.

Think about it...

[YardRat]

Gazing into the crystal ball, five years into the future...

Brandon Spikes (HOF MLB, one of 5 greatest MLBs to play the game), Aaron Williams, (HOF SS, one of 5 greatest safeties to play the game), Marcel Dareus (pro bowl), Mario Williams (Pro Bowl), Nigel Bradham (Pro Bowl) Da' Norris Searcy , (Pro Bowl), Preston Brown (Pro Bowl), Stephon Gilmore (Pro Bowl).

How cool would that be?

I think maybe I broke it, though, when I chucked it against the wall in the fourth quarter of the Oakland game.

[CommissarSpartacus]

You guys still haven't addressed the fact that Rex in Baltimore had a D stuffed with Probowlers and future HOFers, and yet it still stunk both years the offense couldn't protect the D.

Our O couldn't protect our D and yet it still wound up 4th with only Mario Williams as a potential HOF player and a bunch of guys who gained their Pro Bowl cred this year.

Rex is overrated as a D guy, and at least here, Schwart2 is underrated...

[YardRat]

I don't think Schwart2 will be underrated after this season.

I'm just hoping we can say "Yeah, the defense got worse, but the offense improved enough to make the playoffs."

Not expecting it, but I'm allowed to pull the 'wishful thinking' card now and then.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Rex was the DC for the Ravens for 4 seasons...

Here are some of the guys that played for him...

Ray Lewis (HOF MLB, one of 5 greatest MLBs to play the game), ED Reed, (HOF SS, one of 5 greatest safeties to play the game), Haloti Ngata (pro bowl), Trevor Pryce (Pro Bowl), Terrell Suggs (Pro Bowl) Samari Rolle, (Pro Bowl), Bart Scott (Pro Bowl), Chris McCallister (Pro Bowl).

And these are just the famous guys. The rest were pretty great too.

in 2005, the Ravens gave up 299 pts. Ranked 10th. (Kyle Boller qb)

2006, 201 pts, ranked 1st. (Steve McNair qb)

2007, 384 pts, ranked 22nd. (Kyle Boller qb)

2008, 244 pts, ranked 3rd... (Joe Flacco qb)


See a pattern?

If we don't get a decent qb to protect Rexy's D, they aren't gonna impress.

The D won't be able to protect a bad qb, the way Schwart2' D did last year...

DUH!!!!!

IF we have to slug through it with EJ it is bad news all around. However, I am not ready to say Rex will wreck this team just yet. Talk to me at least after free agency and the draft.

[GvilleBills]

Rex was the DC for the Ravens for 4 seasons...

Here are some of the guys that played for him...

Ray Lewis (HOF MLB, one of 5 greatest MLBs to play the game), ED Reed, (HOF SS, one of 5 greatest safeties to play the game), Haloti Ngata (pro bowl), Trevor Pryce (Pro Bowl), Terrell Suggs (Pro Bowl) Samari Rolle, (Pro Bowl), Bart Scott (Pro Bowl), Chris McCallister (Pro Bowl).

And these are just the famous guys. The rest were pretty great too.

in 2005, the Ravens gave up 299 pts. Ranked 10th. (Kyle Boller qb)

2006, 201 pts, ranked 1st. (Steve McNair qb)

2007, 384 pts, ranked 22nd. (Kyle Boller qb)

2008, 244 pts, ranked 3rd... (Joe Flacco qb)


See a pattern?

If we don't get a decent qb to protect Rexy's D, they aren't gonna impress.

The D won't be able to protect a bad qb, the way Schwart2' D did last year...


This new agenda fits you well, could be Holcomb-esq.

[feldspar]

You guys still haven't addressed the fact that Rex in Baltimore had a D stuffed with Probowlers and future HOFers, and yet it still stunk both years the offense couldn't protect the D.

Our O couldn't protect our D and yet it still wound up 4th with only Mario Williams as a potential HOF player and a bunch of guys who gained their Pro Bowl cred this year.

Rex is overrated as a D guy, and at least here, Schwart2 is underrated...

Please...you are stretching the facts to ridiculous length to make a predetermined point. You're all over the place, changing you views to suit your purpose. For example, you like Tom Clements. You stated before that Tom Clements CREATED Aaron Rodgers because he was the QB coach in Green Bay...said those exact words, pretty much. Now, Rex Ryan just benefited from having all this talent on his roster? He didn't help CREATE some of these guys just like Tom Clements CREATED Aaron Rodgers? He was just passively there to benefit from this huge pool of talent that would inevitably succeed? You just making this up as you go along and have your conclusions fit your preconceived notions, twisting your philosophy as it suits you?

Then you include "Pro Bowlers" like Samari Rolle on REX'S team. Well, Ryan and Schwart2 BOTH had him on their teams for 4 years EACH. The guy made the Pro Bowl ONCE, and NEVER when he was with Schwart2 OR Ryan. Bart Scott was a one-time "Pro Bowler" too, and he spent his entire career with Ryan...followed him to the Jets in 2009...guess Ryan never coached him up? Trevor Price was three years removed from his last Pro Bowl before he was ever a player under Ryan as DC; however, he made all his Pro Bowls when Rex was the d-line coach...did Ryan help Price to do that?

Are you saying that there is no way Ryan helped coach up Suggs, Ngata, or any of the rest of them? So now being a coach is just a passive thing when we are talking about coaches that you dislike? But when you like them, they get ALL the credit for everything? Please...

When Rex was DC for Baltimore, the defense ranked 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th in terms of yards allowed. Stats mean only so much because there are too many variables to take under consideration, especially over time. But that looks pretty good, doesn't it? Maybe the offense gave them too many short fields, kept them on the field for too long, and so forth.

There is no doubt that Rex is right up there with the defensive minds in today's business.

[Buddo]

Gazing into the crystal ball, five years into the future...

Brandon Spikes (HOF MLB, one of 5 greatest MLBs to play the game), Aaron Williams, (HOF SS, one of 5 greatest safeties to play the game), Marcel Dareus (pro bowl), Mario Williams (Pro Bowl), Nigel Bradham (Pro Bowl) Da' Norris Searcy , (Pro Bowl), Preston Brown (Pro Bowl), Stephon Gilmore (Pro Bowl).

How cool would that be?

I think maybe I broke it, though, when I chucked it against the wall in the fourth quarter of the Oakland game.

I assume that Kiko is going to the Bowl that they name after him, for those LBers on a different plane(t)? ;)

[CommissarSpartacus]

Please...you are stretching the facts to ridiculous length to make a predetermined point. You're all over the place, changing you views to suit your purpose.

Or not...


For example, you like Tom Clements.

Indeed, and we all get to see his work tomorrow...


You stated before that Tom Clements CREATED Aaron Rodgers because he was the QB coach in Green Bay...said those exact words, pretty much.

I certainly did.


Now, Rex Ryan just benefited from having all this talent on his roster? He didn't help CREATE some of these guys just like Tom Clements CREATED Aaron Rodgers

Ahhh, here comes the false equivalence.

However, before I reply to this silliness, which player(s) are you suggesting Rex Ryan created? Rey Lewis? Ed Reed? Terrell Suggs? Don't forget, Until Mike Nolan left before 2005, Rex was the Ravens D-line coach, so tell me how Rex Ryan created Ray Lewis, possibly the greatest player of all time.at the most important position on D?

Don't think so...


He was just passively there to benefit from this huge pool of talent that would inevitably succeed?

Oh, I doubt he was passive, but we'll never know how much of ray Lewis success was a result of Rex running around shooting his mouth off...


You just making this up as you go along and have your conclusions fit your preconceived notions, twisting your philosophy as it suits you?


Here's what Rex said when they asked him the same question...

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/137338/REX-RYAN-MIDDLE-FINGER-FLICKS-OFF.jpg


Then you include "Pro Bowlers" like Samari Rolle on REX'S team. Well, Ryan and Schwart2 BOTH had him on their teams for 4 years EACH. The guy made the Pro Bowl ONCE, and NEVER when he was with Schwart2 OR Ryan. Bart Scott was a one-time "Pro Bowler" too, and he spent his entire career with Ryan...followed him to the Jets in 2009...guess Ryan never coached him up? Trevor Price was three years removed from his last Pro Bowl before he was ever a player under Ryan as DC; however, he made all his Pro Bowls when Rex was the d-line coach...did Ryan help Price to do that?

Uh, Trevor Pryce was in Denver when Rex was the Ravens D-line coach.

The rest of these "points" are equally stupid.


Are you saying that there is no way Ryan helped coach up Suggs, Ngata, or any of the rest of them? So now being a coach is just a passive thing when we are talking about coaches that you dislike? But when you like them, they get ALL the credit for everything? Please...

I'm sure Rex coached them up on how to make friends and influence people. But to think ANY of what he did with the do2ens and do2ens of players that came and went with Rex bears ANY resemblance to what Tom Clements did with Aeron Rodgers is absurd. Correlation does not necessarily equal causation.


When Rex was DC for Baltimore, the defense ranked 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th in terms of yards allowed. Stats mean only so much because there are too many variables to take under consideration, especially over time. But that looks pretty good, doesn't it? Maybe the offense gave them too many short fields, kept them on the field for too long, and so forth.

Yards allowed? Is that on the scoreboard?


There is no doubt that Rex is right up there with the defensive minds in today's business.

Meaningless cliche...

[feldspar]

so tell me how Rex Ryan created Ray Lewis, possibly the greatest player of all time.at the most important position on D?


I didn't say he created him.

Well, it's pretty simple then by your logic. Maxie Baughan created Ray Lewis. Also, Donnie Henderson created Ed Reed, which is good news since he's the secondary coach for the Bills now...I'm sure he's bound to create another Ed Reed.

If you think that Tom Clements created Aaron Rodgers, then Maxie Baughan created Ray Lewis, and Donnie Henderson created Ed Reed. Nobody else gets much credit, even the players themselves.

[swiper]

2 years until buyer's remorse sets in for Rex hiring.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Well, it's pretty simple then by your logic.

It is.

But only if you WANT to understand what I'm saying, and you obviously only want to fight me.

[feldspar]

It is.

But only if you WANT to understand what I'm saying, and you obviously only want to fight me.

yeah, I don't like ya...but what makes you think that I don't understand the things you've said?

[CommissarSpartacus]

yeah, I don't like ya...but what makes you think that I don't understand the things you've said?

Okay, tell me what I'm saying and we'll see if you've been paying attention.

[pmoon6]

You guys still haven't addressed the fact that Rex in Baltimore had a D stuffed with Probowlers and future HOFers, and yet it still stunk both years the offense couldn't protect the D.

Our O couldn't protect our D and yet it still wound up 4th with only Mario Williams as a potential HOF player and a bunch of guys who gained their Pro Bowl cred this year.

Rex is overrated as a D guy, and at least here, Schwart2 is underrated...The only question about a coach is did he get the players to give 100%. Sometimes, a leader like a Ray Lewis can do that for you, but I think Ryan proved he can do it defensively in New York. Ryan is a disciple of his father's scheme. He runs a quasi 46. It is predicated on QB pressure (which we already have) and corners to man cover. That leaves the safeties to freelance, come up to stop the run, double a good receiver or play the middle looking for a pick. Rex's talent is his ability to disguise, just like Belichick.

Saying Ryan is overrated is probably fair, then again so was his Dad because of the players they have had. Then again, is it the coach who puts his players in a position to succeed or is it the talent of the players themselves? We can't possibly know. The NFL propaganda machine tends to over sensationalize success and heap hyperbole and accolades on coaches when it's a combination of the players and the coach or the team concept at work.

[feldspar]

Okay, tell me what I'm saying and we'll see if you've been paying attention.

You're basically saying that the Bills need a decent QB to protect Rex Ryan's defense. Groundbreaking. You're also stating that Schwart2 is capable of protecting a bad QB, just like he did last year. You point to the talent on Rex's defenses and how points scored against the Ravens defense correlates to the level of QB play.

But the stats you offer when Rex was the DC in Baltimore as proof of your theory are not only seriously flawed in many ways, but WAY too narrow in scope to draw the conclusion you do based upon them.

First of all, Rex Ryan NEVER really had quality QB play on the other side of the ball. You throw out a couple of names that sound good, but McNair and Flacco didn't really play all that well when Rex was DC in Baltimore.

I'll give you the talent on defense that Rex had there, but how many games with stats do you want to play?

Here are some more:

- in 2007, when the RAVENS had the most points scored against them under Rex's 4 years, Baltimore's offense turned the ball over an incredible FORTY TIMES. If you want to talk about rankings, this led the league. Kyle Boller started 8 games, Steve McNair started 6, and Troy Smith started 2...it wasn't just Boller. Steve McNair threw 2 TDs and 4 INTs over his 6 games, your big-name player. More stats.

- in 2005, when the RAVENS had the 2nd most points scored against them under Rex's 4 teams, Baltimore's offense turned the ball over THIRTY-SIX times. "Do you see a pattern?" Can you image the ramifications against defensive STATS all these turnovers would cause? Kyle Boller started 9 games that year, and Anthony Wright started 7 at QB.

- you are stating stats generically. The "points against" stats are points against a TEAM, not taking under consideration when Special Teams or Defense scores points against an opponent. For example, the Ravens scored defense scored six touchdowns in 2006, but those 42 points will end up as points allowed by their opponents on most stat sheets, not differentiating how they HOW they happened...so many people will assume that the opponent's DEFENSE gave up those points, when really the OFFENSE did. They are all clustered in together in the same "point allowed" category, including fieldgoals.

- you are talking about stats when Rex was a DC 7-10 years ago on a different team. He'll be the Head Coach here, with his nose in the defense. When Schwartz was the Head Coach with his nose in the defense, his teams did not really ever do well in terms of points allowed, no matter who was the QB. Let's compare apples-to-apples again. We'll stick to when Matthew Stafford was quarterback over entire seasons.

In Schwar2's last three years with the Lions, Stafford started every game. During that time, the Lions were 23rd, 27th, and 15th in terms of points allowed. Here is the kicker: THIS year, as soon as Schwart2 left, the Lions were 2nd in terms of points allowed with the same starting QB...2nd in yards allowed as well. That's a HUGE jump, isn't it? What might such a revelation tell you about your premise? Pretty much the same defensive starting talent was there before and after he left, wasn't it? Would Schwart2's defense had a repeat season if he stuck around? How well would Rex have done as DC of the Bills under the exact same circumstances?

- there are too many variable involved. If we are basing what we say on stats, ever hear of garbage-time stats, for example? A crazy number of offensive turnovers reflect badly on the defensive stat sheet...another example.

I could go on. Every NFL season is different.

Now you tell me what I've been saying. Keep in mind that I'm only responding in relation to your premise, all sarcasm aside.

[CommissarSpartacus]

The only question about a coach is did he get the players to give 100%.

The coach also has to point them in the right direction and make sure they're properly prepared, then he has to out-scheme the other coach.

Lots more he can do that just assure maximum effort...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Now you tell me what I've been saying. Keep in mind that I'm only responding in relation to your premise, all sarcasm aside.

You're saying I'm wrong, that Rex is a better coach than Schwart2 and guaranteeing at least 10 wins and a playoff appearance.

Am I wrong?

[feldspar]

You're saying I'm wrong, that Rex is a better coach than Schwart2 and guaranteeing at least 10 wins and a playoff appearance.

Am I wrong?

Absolutely.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Absolutely.

Where am I wrong? Please enlighten me.

Are you saying that Rex isn't as good a coach as Schwart2 and our record next year will be worse that 9 - 7?

[feldspar]

Where am I wrong? Please enlighten me.

Are you saying that Rex isn't as good a coach as Schwart2 and our record next year will be worse that 9 - 7?

OK, I'll play.

I already demonstrated that I understood the premise of this thread. Correct? I'm saying that the bogus, faulty "evidence" or stats that you present does not prove your conclusion by a longshot. I've provided a myriad of reasons why. I could write a book about how stupid and short-sighted it would be to base your conclusion on the evidence you present, much less project it on the future.

So I've disproven your point to a more than reasonable degree.

I never made a claim of my own on what will happen in the future anywhere in this thread. Pretty shameless of you to switch gears on me here. Stick this in your "will you guarantee the Bills win so-and-so many games thread," or better yet, stick it in your ass if you can make room up there. I will say this though: the Bills could have just as easily been 6-10 as they were 11-5 this year.