Opinion: The Pegula's Will Build A New Stadium In Orchard Park

[BillsImpossible]

Right next to RWS.

A downtown NFL stadium is the farthest thing from a single silver bullet solution to the economic problems that ail the city of Buffalo.

8 games a year downtown is not going to change much. Some new businesses will try to capitalize on the opportunity, but 8 days a year isn't much to work with. If the new venue acts as a convention center that hosts events year round, that's a different story that involves building a domed stadium, which is not a popular idea in Buffalo. Doesn't take a million dollar marketing study to figure out that Bills fans don't want to be stuck under a dome.

Retractable roof? It's only another $200 million.

What the Pegula's have going now downtown is great. Never saw so many people in the city on a Sunday....

I don't want to build a new stadium downtown for the sake of building a new stadium downtown with hopes that it will magically regenerate the city of Buffalo.

That's Fantasyland, and I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

Why didn't the Patriots build Gillette Stadium in downtown Boston?

Have you ever attempted to drive in Boston?

Jerryland was built in Arlington, TX. Why not Dallas?

Traffic.

On any given working day in the city of Buffalo, about 100,000 commuters or more travel to work downtown.

Imagine having every person that works downtown trying to travel to one place in the middle of the city.

Take a Buffalo Sabres playoff game and multiply the traffic X 5.

Hosting an NFL game in downtown Buffalo is not feasible without billions of dollars invested in road infrastructure expenditures.

If Terry and Kim Pegula can convince the State of New York to invest, "The Buffalo Billion," in new roads and bridges that will make the city capable of handling the traffic, then a new stadium downtown is possible.

The road infrastructure must be built first. The Pegula's can not possibly build a new stadium downtown without it.

Hoping New York State will kick the big bucks in to what is necessary to accommodate the amount of people that attend a Buffalo Bills game is wishful thinking at best.

A brand new stadium built right next to the Ralph?

No environmental studies necessary. No traffic study or road funding worries.

It's the path of least business building resistance.

If the Bills build a new stadium in Orchard Park, I don't think many fans would complain.

[feldspar]

I guess we'll all stop speculating now.

[BillsImpossible]

I guess we'll all stop speculating now.

The Pegula's and Bills fans have about 5 years at most to speculate.

In the meantime, New York State has about 5 years to build a billion dollars worth of new roads and bridges, and that's not going to happen.

[feldspar]

The Pegula's and Bills fans have about 5 years at most to speculate.

In the meantime, New York State has about 5 years to build a billion dollars worth of new roads and bridges, and that's not going to happen.

We'll see, pal.

I'd love for the new stadium to be in Orchard Park, personally.

[Mr. Pink]

And the NFL doesn't play on workdays, so if 100,000 commuters go downtown daily for work, what's about 65,000 commuters and likely 30,000 cars going downtown on a Sunday to watch a football game?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Guaranteed downtown. What a waste of time with this longwinded post

- - - Updated - - -

Billion dollars in roads??? What???

[BillsImpossible]

Guaranteed downtown. What a waste of time with this longwinded post

- - - Updated - - -

Billion dollars in roads??? What???

Yup. Major road constuction is necessary in order to facilitate NFL football in downtown Buffalo. That's a fact, not exaggeration.

Takes lots of $ to pay for that.

A section of Main Street in downtown Buffalo was recently made accessible to vehicular traffic of all things.

That project alone cost many millions of dollars.

[Mr. Pink]

There are 3 ways into and out of downtown...

33, 190 and 5. 190 has multiple exits to access downtown.

How many more roads do you need?

For perspective there are 2 ways into Orchard Park, 90 and 219, meanwhile if you're heading to the North Towns, you're only taking 219 to 90 anyway.

The one thing that would be needed is parking but if they use a large enough parcel of land, they'll have the parking.

[WagonCircler]

Yup. Major road constuction is necessary in order to facilitate NFL football in downtown Buffalo. That's a fact, not exaggeration.
.

My GOD you're naive.

Major road construction is how politicians get paid in this state. Kickbacks from contractors.

[Dr. Lecter]

So he has built the Harbor Center and owns the Sabres downtown and now will put his sure to be multi use facility in OP and not downtown?

Really?

[BertSquirtgum]

So he has built the Harbor Center and owns the Sabres downtown and now will put his sure to be multi use facility in OP and not downtown?

Really?

Exactly. The new stadium is going downtown. Anyone that doesn't believe that is an ignorant fool.

[DetDannyWilliams]

Right next to RWS.

A downtown NFL stadium is the farthest thing from a single silver bullet solution to the economic problems that ail the city of Buffalo.

8 games a year downtown is not going to change much. Some new businesses will try to capitalize on the opportunity, but 8 days a year isn't much to work with. If the new venue acts as a convention center that hosts events year round, that's a different story that involves building a domed stadium, which is not a popular idea in Buffalo. Doesn't take a million dollar marketing study to figure out that Bills fans don't want to be stuck under a dome.

Retractable roof? It's only another $200 million.

What the Pegula's have going now downtown is great. Never saw so many people in the city on a Sunday....

I don't want to build a new stadium downtown for the sake of building a new stadium downtown with hopes that it will magically regenerate the city of Buffalo.

That's Fantasyland, and I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

Why didn't the Patriots build Gillette Stadium in downtown Boston?

Have you ever attempted to drive in Boston?

Jerryland was built in Arlington, TX. Why not Dallas?

Traffic.

On any given working day in the city of Buffalo, about 100,000 commuters or more travel to work downtown.

Imagine having every person that works downtown trying to travel to one place in the middle of the city.

Take a Buffalo Sabres playoff game and multiply the traffic X 5.

Hosting an NFL game in downtown Buffalo is not feasible without billions of dollars invested in road infrastructure expenditures.

If Terry and Kim Pegula can convince the State of New York to invest, "The Buffalo Billion," in new roads and bridges that will make the city capable of handling the traffic, then a new stadium downtown is possible.

The road infrastructure must be built first. The Pegula's can not possibly build a new stadium downtown without it.

Hoping New York State will kick the big bucks in to what is necessary to accommodate the amount of people that attend a Buffalo Bills game is wishful thinking at best.

A brand new stadium built right next to the Ralph?

No environmental studies necessary. No traffic study or road funding worries.

It's the path of least business building resistance.

If the Bills build a new stadium in Orchard Park, I don't think many fans would complain.

Right that's why WGRZ, BN, Sienna College poll done last week said that 73% prefer a new stadium to be built in Downtown

[MikeNC]

Guaranteed downtown. What a waste of time with this longwinded post

- - - Updated - - -

Billion dollars in roads??? What???


Agreed... I live in Charlotte and I can leave the stadium and be home in 15 minutes, and I live up in University City....

[BertSquirtgum]

Yup. Major road constuction is necessary in order to facilitate NFL football in downtown Buffalo. That's a fact, not exaggeration.

Takes lots of $ to pay for that.

A section of Main Street in downtown Buffalo was recently made accessible to vehicular traffic of all things.

That project alone cost many millions of dollars.

Not a fact. Just your opinion. You often confuse your opinions with facts.

[WagonCircler]

Agreed... I live in Charlotte and I can leave the stadium and be home in 15 minutes, and I live up in University City....

Just take Tryon!

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yup. Major road constuction is necessary in order to facilitate NFL football in downtown Buffalo. That's a fact, not exaggeration.

Takes lots of $ to pay for that.

A section of Main Street in downtown Buffalo was recently made accessible to vehicular traffic of all things.

That project alone cost many millions of dollars.

No **** but are u aware of the difference between several million ad opposed to billions????

[THATHURMANATOR]

What makes this Thread even dumber is the notion that the pegulas would prefer to build in op when all their other holdings are downtown

[Dr. Who]

I'd be really surprised if it doesn't end up downtown.

[Dude]

Sorry, I hate to be grammar nazi, but Pegula's is possessive. Pegulas is plural.

Ok I feel better now.

[BillsImpossible]

No **** but are u aware of the difference between several million ad opposed to billions????

1 billion dollars is 1,000 million.

Tearing down the Skyway and replacing it alone would cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

Speaking of the Skyway, it is often shut down in the middle of winter.

Imagine having thousands of people stranded in their cars on the Skyway in the middle of a winter storm?

If you want to have a stadium downtown, the Skyway has to be demolished because it is a huge liability.


http://www.nysenate.gov/files/imagecache/full_node_featured_image/skyway_0.jpg

[BillsImpossible]

Sorry, I hate to be grammar nazi, but Pegula's is possessive. Pegulas is plural.

Ok I feel better now.

Okay, the Pegulas'.

[YardRat]

I think the state study that was released last week indicated the highest estimate for infrastructure, mostly roadwork, was somewhere in the $212mil range, and pushed the expected total costs up to a little under a billion total. I don't remember which specific site downtown it was, though.

[Shiny Chicken]

Sure this has been talked about, but too lazy to go searching. Why not Batavia, or somewhere else thereabouts? As someone who grew up in Rochester, I never understood why the stadium was significantly south of Buffalo, when the team's easily second largest fanbase is to the east. In terms of size of economy and population of the metro area, Buffalo and Rochester are nearly identical. Never understood why there's never been much discussion about moving the stadium somewhere in between the two cities. The logic of maintaining a fanbase in Rochester is no-brainer. If you can move the stadium to a place where Buffalo residents don't have to travel further than they do already, but Rochester residents have a much shorter trip than they do currently, wouldn't that be optimal?

To be fair, I haven't lived in Western New York in over a decade and I'm not as familiar with the immediate situation.

[SpikedLemonade]

Sure this has been talked about, but too lazy to go searching. Why not Batavia, or somewhere else thereabouts? As someone who grew up in Rochester, I never understood why the stadium was significantly south of Buffalo, when the team's easily second largest fanbase is to the east. In terms of size of economy and population of the metro area, Buffalo and Rochester are nearly identical. Never understood why there's never been much discussion about moving the stadium somewhere in between the two cities. The logic of maintaining a fanbase in Rochester is no-brainer. If you can move the stadium to a place where Buffalo residents don't have to travel further than they do already, but Rochester residents have a much shorter trip than they do currently, wouldn't that be optimal?

To be fair, I haven't lived in Western New York in over a decade and I'm not as familiar with the immediate situation.

If you never understood the above, you probably never understood why the ferry to Toronto from Rochester did not work. No one from Toronto was interested in visiting Rochester.

By wealth, the Bills second largest fanbase is Southwestern Ontario (including Toronto) rather than Rochester.

[Shiny Chicken]

If you never understood the above, you probably never understood why the ferry to Toronto from Rochester did not work. No one from Toronto was interested in visiting Rochester.

By wealth, the Bills second largest fanbase is Southwestern Ontario (including Toronto) rather than Rochester.

The ferry didn't work cause it was an awful idea, and yeah, there's no good reason for visiting besides the grocery store. Note the not having lived there for a decade. I don't even visit. I live in Seattle. I know what a thriving city that people want to go to looks like. We're not talking about visiting Rochester, though. We're talking about people from Rochester going to Bills games, so I don't really get your point. I'm not talking about putting a stadium in Rochester, just getting it closer without moving it further away from Buffalo than it is already.

And I looked up GDP for both metro areas. From the most recent data I could find, from 2011, you're incorrect. In fact the Rochester metro area's GDP is larger than the Buffalo metro:
Buffalo 2011 data: $45.88 billion with a pop of 1,134,210 http://topmetroarea.com/metroarea/46882247/Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Niagara%20Falls,%20NY
Rochester 2011 data: $46.35 billion with a pop of 1,082,284 http://topmetroarea.com/metroarea/49503855/Rochester,%20NY

On top of that I think the Toronto Series showed just how much southern Ontario cares about Buffalo Bills football as a whole. Rochester has had a large, loyal Bills fanbase for years. If you want to maximise the team's survival long term, one would think you would want to maximise it's regional appeal. Keeping the stadium closer to Ohio and Pennsylvania than anywhere else doesn't do much for that regional appeal.

[SpikedLemonade]

The ferry didn't work cause it was an awful idea, and yeah, there's no good reason for visiting besides the grocery store. Note the not having lived there for a decade. I don't even visit. I live in Seattle. I know what a thriving city that people want to go to looks like. We're not talking about visiting Rochester, though. We're talking about people from Rochester going to Bills games, so I don't really get your point. I'm not talking about putting a stadium in Rochester, just getting it closer without moving it further away from Buffalo than it is already.

And I looked up GDP for both metro areas. From the most recent data I could find, from 2011, you're incorrect. In fact the Rochester metro area's GDP is larger than the Buffalo metro:
Buffalo 2011 data: $45.88 billion with a pop of 1,134,210 http://topmetroarea.com/metroarea/46882247/Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Niagara%20Falls,%20NY
Rochester 2011 data: $46.35 billion with a pop of 1,082,284 http://topmetroarea.com/metroarea/49503855/Rochester,%20NY

On top of that I think the Toronto Series showed just how much southern Ontario cares about Buffalo Bills football as a whole. Rochester has had a large, loyal Bills fanbase for years. If you want to maximise the team's survival long term, one would think you would want to maximise it's regional appeal. Keeping the stadium closer to Ohio and Pennsylvania than anywhere else doesn't do much for that regional appeal.

15-20% of current Bills season ticket holders are Canadian.

My point was that it may not be wise to move the stadium any further away from them.

[notacon]

Right next to RWS.

A downtown NFL stadium is the farthest thing from a single silver bullet solution to the economic problems that ail the city of Buffalo.

8 games a year downtown is not going to change much. Some new businesses will try to capitalize on the opportunity, but 8 days a year isn't much to work with. If the new venue acts as a convention center that hosts events year round, that's a different story that involves building a domed stadium, which is not a popular idea in Buffalo. Doesn't take a million dollar marketing study to figure out that Bills fans don't want to be stuck under a dome.

Retractable roof? It's only another $200 million.

What the Pegula's have going now downtown is great. Never saw so many people in the city on a Sunday....

I don't want to build a new stadium downtown for the sake of building a new stadium downtown with hopes that it will magically regenerate the city of Buffalo.

That's Fantasyland, and I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

Why didn't the Patriots build Gillette Stadium in downtown Boston?

Have you ever attempted to drive in Boston?

Jerryland was built in Arlington, TX. Why not Dallas?

Traffic.

On any given working day in the city of Buffalo, about 100,000 commuters or more travel to work downtown.

Imagine having every person that works downtown trying to travel to one place in the middle of the city.

Take a Buffalo Sabres playoff game and multiply the traffic X 5.

Hosting an NFL game in downtown Buffalo is not feasible without billions of dollars invested in road infrastructure expenditures.

If Terry and Kim Pegula can convince the State of New York to invest, "The Buffalo Billion," in new roads and bridges that will make the city capable of handling the traffic, then a new stadium downtown is possible.

The road infrastructure must be built first. The Pegula's can not possibly build a new stadium downtown without it.

Hoping New York State will kick the big bucks in to what is necessary to accommodate the amount of people that attend a Buffalo Bills game is wishful thinking at best.

A brand new stadium built right next to the Ralph?

No environmental studies necessary. No traffic study or road funding worries.

It's the path of least business building resistance.

If the Bills build a new stadium in Orchard Park, I don't think many fans would complain.

This is one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen.

There is only one thing worse than building a cheap ass stadium in the middle of the snow belt in 1973.

And that is building another one in 2000whatever in Orchard park, the middle of the snow belt. This is exactly the same 'head-up-the-ass' thinking that got us the worst stadium in the league 42 years ago.

I am not sure if there have been more bad threads from one poster on any bulletin board in the world.

[Shiny Chicken]

15-20% of current Bills season ticket holders are Canadian.

My point was that it may not be wise to move the stadium any further away from them.

And aren't something like 30+% from Rochester? Moving the stadium in the direction of Batavia would have little to no negative impact on the travel time from most areas in Buffalo or Southern Ontario and a significant positive impact on travel time from the Rochester area.

How is 30 minutes east of Buffalo that much harder to reach for Canadians than 20 minutes south of Buffalo?

[WagonCircler]

And aren't something like 30+% from Rochester? Moving the stadium in the direction of Batavia would have little to no negative impact on the travel time from most areas in Buffalo or Southern Ontario and a significant positive impact on travel time from the Rochester area.

How is 30 minutes east of Buffalo that much harder to reach for Canadians than 20 minutes south of Buffalo?

This is like asking why we couldn't have found a way to keep the Braves here.

It's pointless. It's not going to happen.

Even the Orchard Park idea is burnt toast.

The stadium is going downtown. All of this nonsense is just smoke and mirrors.

It's a done deal and it has been for quite a while.

[Dude]

Okay, the Pegulas'.
Or just spell it the right way....

[YardRat]

Orchard Park may be the 'middle of the snow belt' for Erie County, but they still get a pansy-ass amount of snow compared to other areas of WNY. I agree with the rest, though.

[BillsImpossible]

This is like asking why we couldn't have found a way to keep the Braves here.

It's pointless. It's not going to happen.

Even the Orchard Park idea is burnt toast.

The stadium is going downtown. All of this nonsense is just smoke and mirrors.

It's a done deal and it has been for quite a while.

It's about as done a deal as a new Peace Bridge.

Did you see the front page of the Buffalo News this morning?

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/erie-county-voters-split-on-public-funding-for-new-stadium-20150131

Economists such as Winfree almost unanimously cite evidence showing that new stadiums don’t spur a lot of spinoff economic benefit. Instead, they reshuffle money that’s already being spent in the community while simultaneously boosting profits for NFL teams.
Acknowledging that reality, Poloncarz said: “There are those who say there’s tremendous economic benefit and development that results from a new stadium, but I don’t see it unless it’s somehow combined with a convention center. There really is no economic spinoff that results if it’s just a stadium. That’s been proven again and again.”

---------
He (Higgins) noted, though, that the results would have been more positive if voters had been asked if they would be willing to pay for infrastructure, such as road improvements and new highway ramps to serve the new stadium, rather than the stadium itself.
The public share of stadium costs increasingly goes toward those sorts of infrastructure improvements rather than to stadium construction, but Higgins said voters may not recognize that fact.

[BillsImpossible]

One thing that I think we can all agree upon is that if the Pegulas do decide to build a new stadium downtown, they're not going to build the stadium first and then worry about building new roads and bridges after the project is completed.

That would be putting the cart in front of the horse.

So the question is how much of the total cost to build a new stadium downtown will be attributed to new ramps, widening roads, and building/repairing bridges?

How much is that going to cost the average taxpayer in WNY? Once taxes go up, they never go down.

In order to build a new stadium downtown, the road infrastructure improvements must be done first.

Getting that accomplished within the next 6 years will be more difficult than building the stadium itself.

[WagonCircler]

It's about as done a deal as a new Peace Bridge.

Did you see the front page of the Buffalo News this morning?

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/erie-county-voters-split-on-public-funding-for-new-stadium-20150131

Economists such as Winfree almost unanimously cite evidence showing that new stadiums don’t spur a lot of spinoff economic benefit. Instead, they reshuffle money that’s already being spent in the community while simultaneously boosting profits for NFL teams.
Acknowledging that reality, Poloncarz said: “There are those who say there’s tremendous economic benefit and development that results from a new stadium, but I don’t see it unless it’s somehow combined with a convention center. There really is no economic spinoff that results if it’s just a stadium. That’s been proven again and again.”

---------
He (Higgins) noted, though, that the results would have been more positive if voters had been asked if they would be willing to pay for infrastructure, such as road improvements and new highway ramps to serve the new stadium, rather than the stadium itself.
The public share of stadium costs increasingly goes toward those sorts of infrastructure improvements rather than to stadium construction, but Higgins said voters may not recognize that fact.

You really don't get it.

It doesn't make a dime's worth of difference what any economist thinks. It doesn't matter if there's negative economic impact on the region.

It's about economic impact for contractors and for corrupt politicians like Sheldon Silver. But it's for those who haven't been caught yet.

And more importantly than that, it's already been decided. Not like the Peace Bridge, like Rich Stadium, which was only built in Orchard Park because a notable Buffalo city politician wanted a bribe of $1 MIL in cash to build it downtown, and that type of money could not be hidden in those days, so they told him to piss off and moved it to the suburbs.

This time, the right palms have been greased. Face it. It's inevitable. It's done. It's happening.

You can piss and whine all you want to, but you're wasting your time.

[BillsImpossible]

This is one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen.

There is only one thing worse than building a cheap ass stadium in the middle of the snow belt in 1973.

And that is building another one in 2000whatever in Orchard park, the middle of the snow belt. This is exactly the same 'head-up-the-ass' thinking that got us the worst stadium in the league 42 years ago.

I am not sure if there have been more bad threads from one poster on any bulletin board in the world.

That's your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

The worst stadium in the league?

Who are you, Roger Goodell?

Calling Ralph Wilson Stadium the worst stadium in the league is asinine.

Compare the brand new Levi's Stadium to Ralph Wilson Stadium.

http://www.mercurynews.com/southbayfootball/ci_25416635/49ers-new-stadium-no-kegs-playing-catch-all

49ers new stadium: No kegs, playing catch -- all the things you can't doThe following acts are prohibited for fans inside and outside the stadium




No throwing objects -- liquid or solid, including footballs -- or causing anything to "become airborne"

[BillsImpossible]

You really don't get it.

It doesn't make a dime's worth of difference what any economist thinks. It doesn't matter if there's negative economic impact on the region.

It's about economic impact for contractors and for corrupt politicians like Sheldon Silver. But it's for those who haven't been caught yet.

And more importantly than that, it's already been decided. Not like the Peace Bridge, like Rich Stadium, which was only built in Orchard Park because a notable Buffalo city politician wanted a bribe of $1 MIL in cash to build it downtown, and that type of money could not be hidden in those days, so they told him to piss off and moved it to the suburbs.

This time, the right palms have been greased. Face it. It's inevitable. It's done. It's happening.

You can piss and whine all you want to, but you're wasting your time.

I hope the right palms have been greased, but I see no action yet.

I hope it's a done deal, but until we actually see construction movement on the ground with heavy equipment bulldozing houses and paving new roads it's not a done deal.

Personally, I want a new stadium downtown too. I just don't have faith in the city leaders to get the job done based on the past 50 years of how things don't get done in the city of Buffalo because everyone wants their palms greased with cash money.

Bribery is not a good business model to follow.

[DetDannyWilliams]

You really don't get it.

It doesn't make a dime's worth of difference what any economist thinks. It doesn't matter if there's negative economic impact on the region.

It's about economic impact for contractors and for corrupt politicians like Sheldon Silver. But it's for those who haven't been caught yet.

And more importantly than that, it's already been decided. Not like the Peace Bridge, like Rich Stadium, which was only built in Orchard Park because a notable Buffalo city politician wanted a bribe of $1 MIL in cash to build it downtown, and that type of money could not be hidden in those days, so they told him to piss off and moved it to the suburbs.

This time, the right palms have been greased. Face it. It's inevitable. It's done. It's happening.

You can piss and whine all you want to, but you're wasting your time.

:bf1: nicely said couldn't have said it better myself!

[YardRat]

RWS is actually a great stadium for watching football, even though some (many?) of the amenities aren't up to scale with some of the newer builds. I hope the new one can replicate the seating/viewing aspects.

[YardRat]

Also, not all of the palms have been greased...there are some very interested people (*cough* Paladino *cough*) that are going to want to make a lot of money selling the properties that are going to be involved.

[BillsImpossible]

Also, not all of the palms have been greased...there are some very interested people (*cough* Paladino *cough*) that are going to want to make a lot of money selling the properties that are going to be involved.

Thank you, YardRat.

There are simply too many payoffs involved. Too many hands to grease, and when you grease someone's hand you compromise yourself.

I wouldn't risk my fortune to some politician or landowner that wants an under the table payment that could get me in serious trouble with the law.

A lot of buildings will have to be demolished, and I'm sure preservationists will intervene quicker than a bird flying in to a bridge.

If the Pegulas can build a stadium in downtown Buffalo, it will be a miracle come true.

Meanwhile, the tallest building in Buffalo once known as HSBC Tower sits empty.

[WagonCircler]

Also, not all of the palms have been greased...there are some very interested people (*cough* Paladino *cough*) that are going to want to make a lot of money selling the properties that are going to be involved.

Are you kidding me? Who do you think owns most of the privately held property around the Perry Street projects and Father Conway Park?

Carl's palms haven't been greased because he's not in a decision making position, but he will profit more than any private individual from all of this.

[paladin warrior]

For real ?, I really like both build a new stadium with half Doom or open stadium. It good idea to hire more people . .Minn Viking already starting building a new stadium.LA Is coming soon. if Ram is coming back to LA. and I d k what going to with ST.Louis stadium.

[WagonCircler]

Thank you, YardRat.

There are simply too many payoffs involved. Too many hands to grease, and when you grease someone's hand you compromise yourself.

I wouldn't risk my fortune to some politician or landowner that wants an under the table payment that could get me in serious trouble with the law.

A lot of buildings will have to be demolished, and I'm sure preservationists will intervene quicker than a bird flying in to a bridge.

If the Pegulas can build a stadium in downtown Buffalo, it will be a miracle come true.

Meanwhile, the tallest building in Buffalo once known as HSBC Tower sits empty.

You think Preservationists give a good God damn about the Perry Street Projects? That's most of what's going to be demolished. They are the logo for urban blight. They are a huge impediment to saving the buildings that are worth keeping.

You know what saves those buildings? Infusions of CASH in areas around them. Larkinville. Cash. Elmwood Village. Cash. Hotel Lafayette. Cash.

On the other hand, look at the Central Terminal. It has been saved by a handful of volunteers, but its surrounding environs have been an impediment to any real restoration of the building. You can bet your lungs that if the Central Terminal was on the West Side or closer to Larkinville, there would already be cranes around it, restoring it, making it inhabitable--filling it with upscale condos and offices.

And your precious "expert says little to no economic impact brought by stadiums" is ************. Sure, when looked at in a vacuum, maybe. But when added to development already in progress, it can be a major accelerant. Just look at the Baltimore Harbor. It was as scary a place as Compton at one time. But the development of the Inner Harbor that coincided with the construction of Orioles Park at Camden Yards revitalized the area beyond recognition, and spurred an additional stadium for the Ravens, as well as a brand new convention center, hotels and shopping and entertainment districts that are thriving today.

Districts of this type are popping up all over the country. XFinity Live in Philadelphia. Ballpark Village in St. Louis. They're all over the place. And they're anchored by multiple stadiums and arenas, centrally located, surrounded by brand new hotels and shopping/entertainment districts.

Buffalo is in exactly the same place as Baltimore was. There's finally an opportunity here to turn the tide, and it's happening, whether you like it or not.

[SpikedLemonade]

Baltimore and Philly today are the goals to aspire to no doubt. I hope Buffalo gets there.

The truth is that Buffalo is much closer to Detroit than it is to those two cities.

I went to the MNF opener this year in Detroit and there is a tremendous amount of economic activity around the stadium.

[YardRat]

Are you kidding me? Who do you think owns most of the privately held property around the Perry Street projects and Father Conway Park?

Carl's palms haven't been greased because he's not in a decision making position, but he will profit more than any private individual from all of this.

Ummm...that's kinda my point, and why I mentioned Paladino specifically. If he owns property, unless they attempt eminent domain, he certainly is part of the decision making process because it will be his decision how much he wants to sell for. You don't think he's going to play the good guy and take a hometown discount for the good of the city, do you? I pretty much agree that a stadium will get done downtown somewhere in Pegulaville, but greed has jettisoned a previous attempt to build a stadium, greed has been the culprit in downtown/waterfront lack of development, and I wouldn't be so quick to summarily dismiss greed as a speed bump for this project either.

[WagonCircler]

Ummm...that's kinda my point, and why I mentioned Paladino specifically. If he owns property, unless they attempt eminent domain, he certainly is part of the decision making process because it will be his decision how much he wants to sell for. You don't think he's going to play the good guy and take a hometown discount for the good of the city, do you? I pretty much agree that a stadium will get done downtown somewhere in Pegulaville, but greed has jettisoned a previous attempt to build a stadium, greed has been the culprit in downtown/waterfront lack of development, and I wouldn't be so quick to summarily dismiss greed as a speed bump for this project either.

UUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMM, no. Profiting and "having one's palm greased" are two totally different things. Carl's not going to be accepting bribes. He's going to make money from smart speculation. These are two totally different things.

And he will profit from the development around the stadium, not the actual land that the stadium and parking lots will be built on.

Either way, he gains big time and will definitely not be an impediment to the stadium getting built.

[YardRat]

UUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMM, no. Profiting and "having one's palm greased" are two totally different things. Carl's not going to be accepting bribes. He's going to make money from smart speculation. These are two totally different things.

Semantics.


And he will profit from the development around the stadium, not the actual land that the stadium and parking lots will be built on.

Depends on the actual final site design and placement.


Either way, he gains big time and will definitely not be an impediment to the stadium getting built.

Depends on how 'big time' he wants to gain.

Again...he isn't in it for a home town discount, and he isn't going to roll over for what may be generally accepted as fair market value.

I would be VERY surprised if some initial feelers haven't already been sent out to the owners of the private properties of the three downtown sites that have been thrown out there as possibilities.

[WagonCircler]

Semantics..

Not semantics at all. Two distinctly different things. Making a profit based on smart speculation is pretty much the opposite of accepting bribes to "fix the game."

The two situations couldn't be more different from each other.


I would be VERY surprised if some initial feelers haven't already been sent out to the owners of the private properties of the three downtown sites that have been thrown out there as possibilities.

It's already done. Mark my words. Flag this post. It will be the South Park site. All of this is smoke and mirrors.

[YardRat]

Not semantics at all. Two distinctly different things. Making a profit based on smart speculation is pretty much the opposite of accepting bribes to "fix the game."

The two situations couldn't be more different from each other.

If you think politics and some form of greasing isn't going to play into the plans, than you are either being intentionally obtuse, arguing just for the sake of arguing, or completely ignorant about the city of Buffalo and Erie County.




It's already done. Mark my words. Flag this post. It will be the South Park site. All of this is smoke and mirrors.

Could be, and I'm well aware you've been pimping that site from almost the very beginning. If it's already a done deal, would you be interested in sharing some actual details regarding how it got done?

[WagonCircler]

If you think politics and some form of greasing isn't going to play into the plans, than you are either being intentionally obtuse, arguing just for the sake of arguing, or completely ignorant about the city of Buffalo and Erie County.


You are TOTALLY missing my point.

I'm not saying that palm greasing of officials haven't been done. It most emphatically has. It always does.

What I'm saying is that the term "palm greasing" does not apply to what's going on with Paladino, as he is not in a position to be bribed. He's simply going to benefit from foresight (and possibly inside information, but that's beside the point).

[gr8slayer]

Agreed... I live in Charlotte and I can leave the stadium and be home in 15 minutes, and I live up in University City....

Same here in Dallas.

[WagonCircler]

Same here in Dallas.


Really? I thought the stadium was in Arlington?

[JohnnyGold]

Say what you want about the OP, but I think you guys are calling this a done deal way way WAY too soon.

Terry and Kim's money is tied up in a very polarizing, potentially dangerous field. If you've ever read Atlas Shrugged, it seems very similar. My biggest concern has always been that the feds will regulate the hell out of fracking at some point in the near future, and his holdings will go from billions to millions over night. Apart from getting a new QB or winning a Super Bowl, the best Bills related news we could hear in the next 5 years would be that Terry liquidated all of his holdings and is leaving the fracking business behind. All it takes is for that needle to drop down from the 100 mph the fracking industry is going right now, to 85 mph, and the Pegulas might become very trigger shy about building a new billion dollar stadium.

The common wisdom has always been "build a winner and the Bills will generate even more money!" but this is going to be a very interesting drama to see play out. And please believe the NFL is going to be heavily involved.

Seattle: new owner, new stadium? Super bowl.
New England: new owner, new stadium? Super bowls.

If the NFL thinks it's in Buffalo's best interest to get a stadium, we WILL win a super bowl in a few years to justify the PSL's that we will be required to buy. You can take that to the *****ing bank--the league is absolutely, 100% rigged in that manner.

I guess my points are disjointed, but my central argument is this: it still seems way too early for anyone to say with certainty where a stadium is going to go.

[notacon]

Now the lame reason for not building the stadium where it MUST be built is the fear of "palm greasing"?!?!? Seriously?!?!?! :rofl:

Jesus. Remember, the ONLY reason that RWS was built in Orchard Park was to save a few dollars. Because the Erie County Legislature ****ed up the deal, the taxpayers of Erie County had to PAY for the domed stadium that NEVER GOT BUILT!!!!

Is THAT the kind of "palm greasing" you want done again???

You naysayers just don't have the first clue what's going on do you? The cost of the new stadium is, basically, irrelevant. If Buffalo wants to survive as a city, they MUST do projects like this. It is imperative that the Bills stay in Buffalo, or the fallout will make Buffalo much worse than Detroit.

Remember, Detroit still has a NFL, NHL, NBA and Major League Baseball teams. Buffalo loses the Bills and you could just bulldoze the city under.

You don't think the team will move because of Pegula?? You are kidding yourself. The ONLY way the team stays in Buffalo is with a new stadium in or around downtown Buffalo.

It is the ONLY way to go. You want to whine about how much it will cost??? Move away so your precious pocketbook won't be touched.

[notacon]

Say what you want about the OP, but I think you guys are calling this a done deal way way WAY too soon.

Terry and Kim's money is tied up in a very polarizing, potentially dangerous field. If you've ever read Atlas Shrugged, it seems very similar. My biggest concern has always been that the feds will regulate the hell out of fracking at some point in the near future, and his holdings will go from billions to millions over night. Apart from getting a new QB or winning a Super Bowl, the best Bills related news we could hear in the next 5 years would be that Terry liquidated all of his holdings and is leaving the fracking business behind. All it takes is for that needle to drop down from the 100 mph the fracking industry is going right now, to 85 mph, and the Pegulas might become very trigger shy about building a new billion dollar stadium.

The common wisdom has always been "build a winner and the Bills will generate even more money!" but this is going to be a very interesting drama to see play out. And please believe the NFL is going to be heavily involved.

Seattle: new owner, new stadium? Super bowl.
New England: new owner, new stadium? Super bowls.

If the NFL thinks it's in Buffalo's best interest to get a stadium, we WILL win a super bowl in a few years to justify the PSL's that we will be required to buy. You can take that to the *****ing bank--the league is absolutely, 100% rigged in that manner.

I guess my points are disjointed, but my central argument is this: it still seems way too early for anyone to say with certainty where a stadium is going to go.

"Atlas Shrugged"?!?!?!?!? Are you ****ing KIDDING ME???

Jesus. Atlas Shrugged has NOTHING of value to say. Period.

[JohnnyGold]

"Atlas Shrugged"?!?!?!?!? Are you ****ing KIDDING ME???

Jesus. Atlas Shrugged has NOTHING of value to say. Period.

I'm not talking about where you fall on the political spectrum, I'm talking about the feds stepping in and regulating an industry and cutting into the profits of the barons of said industry.

It is a famous piece of literature that is referred to quite often in modern society. In this case, the parallels seem interesting, and worth noting, and seeing as how Rand spent 2000 pages discussing them, I was under the impression that referring to that book would make my point more eloquently than I could in a 5 sentence post.

If that reference offended your sensibilities and disrupted your Monday morning, I am truly, deeply and profoundly sorry, and I will try to do better in the future to not put you in such a position where you are forced to recall such a monumentally traumatic piece of literature.

[notacon]

I'm not talking about where you fall on the political spectrum, I'm talking about the feds stepping in and regulating an industry and cutting into the profits of the barons of said industry.

It is a famous piece of literature that is referred to quite often in modern society. In this case, the parallels seem interesting, and worth noting, and seeing as how Rand spent 2000 pages discussing them, I was under the impression that referring to that book would make my point more eloquently than I could in a 5 sentence post.

If that reference offended your sensibilities and disrupted your Monday morning, I am truly, deeply and profoundly sorry, and I will try to do better in the future to not put you in such a position where you are forced to recall such a monumentally traumatic piece of literature.

No need to apologize, and my sensibilities were not offended, nor did you disrupt my Monday morning. Don't be silly.

As you may have suspected, my leanings in the political spectrum and no where near the extreme, oppressive and absurd right wing philosophies of Ayn Rand. She is a pariah to anyone who values other humans or a civil society.

I would suggest you make you point using a different method. The idea of the "feds stepping in and regulating an industry...blah...blah...blah...is fairly alarmist. The bigger threat to fraking is the world wide price of oil. In any event, the Pegula's revenue stream as derived from the oil business has little effect on what kind of owner he will be for the Bills. Unless you have a intimate knowledge of his finances (which you don't...and no one here does), I would also make a suggestion that going down that road is silly and speculative. The average Bills fan hasn't the first clue as to how "barons" manage their money....and Atlas Shrugged is the LAST place to gain any insight or direction.

All you have done by bringing up Atlas Shrugged is proclaim to the everyone that your world view is warped and perverse.

[JohnnyGold]

No need to apologize, and my sensibilities were not offended, nor did you disrupt my Monday morning. Don't be silly.

As you may have suspected, my leanings in the political spectrum and no where near the extreme, oppressive and absurd right wing philosophies of Ayn Rand. She is a pariah to anyone who values other humans or a civil society.

I would suggest you make you point using a different method. The idea of the "feds stepping in and regulating an industry...blah...blah...blah...is fairly alarmist. The bigger threat to fraking is the world wide price of oil. In any event, the Pegula's revenue stream as derived from the oil business has little effect on what kind of owner he will be for the Bills. Unless you have a intimate knowledge of his finances (which you don't...and no one here does), I would also make a suggestion that going down that road is silly and speculative. The average Bills fan hasn't the first clue as to how "barons" manage their money....and Atlas Shrugged is the LAST place to gain any insight or direction.

All you have done by bringing up Atlas Shrugged is proclaim to the everyone that your world view is warped and perverse.

You seem like way more of a book burner than any "extremist" I've ever met.

And fracking is absolutely a hot button issue--if you asked 10 people walking down the street right now, 3 or 4 of them might tell you earth quakes are caused by fracking. Is that right? Does it matter? Since when has the American congressional system passed laws based on objective data and verifiable results? If 17 years ago someone bought our team with the profits they made from Pets.com, and all of their money was tied up in other "electronic capital" we could be nervous.

And that's what this thread is about. Stadium sites. Personally, I think a lot could change in Pegula's industry in the next 7-10 years that could change the needs of a new stadium. Both in location and urgency of construction.

Admittedly, my understanding of the political protections offered to Pegula and his industry is limited, but I would feel better if our owner had liquid assets and got out of a game that seems a little too "wild west" for me right now. I'm not saying that fracking is built on a house of cards... but I'm not saying it's not either. It's a process that is still new, and new multi-billion dollar industries in America have a way of inviting federal regulation... hence the Atlas Shrugged reference.

And I was not really apologizing to you for referencing that book.

I was mocking your maturity level in not being able to discuss an issue without retreating behind party banners and throwing rocks at people who are looking at an issue from a different perspective than you. But obviously, for an open minded liberal such as yourself, such a practice is beneath you.

[notacon]

You seem like way more of a book burner than any "extremist" I've ever met.

And fracking is absolutely a hot button issue--if you asked 10 people walking down the street right now, 3 or 4 of them might tell you earth quakes are caused by fracking. Is that right? Does it matter? Since when has the American congressional system passed laws based on objective data and verifiable results? If 17 years ago someone bought our team with the profits they made from Pets.com, and all of their money was tied up in other "electronic capital" we could be nervous.

And that's what this thread is about. Stadium sites. Personally, I think a lot could change in Pegula's industry in the next 7-10 years that could change the needs of a new stadium. Both in location and urgency of construction.

Admittedly, my understanding of the political protections offered to Pegula and his industry is limited, but I would feel better if our owner had liquid assets and got out of a game that seems a little too "wild west" for me right now. I'm not saying that fracking is built on a house of cards... but I'm not saying it's not either. It's a process that is still new, and new multi-billion dollar industries in America have a way of inviting federal regulation... hence the Atlas Shrugged reference.

And I was not really apologizing to you for referencing that book.

I was mocking your maturity level in not being able to discuss an issue without retreating behind party banners and throwing rocks at people who are looking at an issue from a different perspective than you. But obviously, for an open minded liberal such as yourself, such a practice is beneath you.

Oh please. A "book burner"?!?!? :rofl: Stop being so dramatic. I don't want to burn ay book, but, that does not mean I will accept the **** written in Atlas Shrugged. I disrespect anyone who thinks that book is anything more than an extremist screed. It insults my intelligence (and should insult the intelligence of anyone) when that rag is presented as any kind of example for anything except contempt.

I dd not say that fracking was not a "hot button issue"...stop misrepresenting what I wrote.

Fracking will have zero effect on Pegula's ownership of the Bills and even less to do with a stadium.

You want to discuss an issue join a reasonable level? Sorry, but citing Atlas Shrugged blows your credibility to shreds...as it does with most conservatives too. Just notice how much Paul Ryan now denies he ever said anything supporting about it.

If you want to sit there and say "Pigs can fly" and cite a ridiculous book written about that subject, and expect a "open minded" discussion about the theory of flying pigs, you have to go somewhere else for your warped fantasies.