Hypothetical Super Bowl Cheating Question

[K-Gun]

This is simply a hypothetical question for the purpose of thinking through an interesting senario.

What if an NFL team employed computer hackers to find a way to monitor the radio transmission of their opponents?

Would this give a team enough of a strategic edge to make a difference in a game like the Super Bowl?

Would a team be able to make a late substitution on a key play in order to insert a player with pre-knowledge of the call in a position to make a big play? If so, would it appear like the player knew where the play was going before it happened?

Just something to think about, not that a team would ever try to steal the signals of another team in a game as big as the Super Bowl. But is it possible? And if so, what would the ramifications be?

[Bill Cody]

BB: "Butler it's the SLANT! The SLANT! BREAK BREAK BREAK YESSSS!"

[trapezeus]

i think the sponsors of the wireless equipment like bose wouldn't want that on their head.

i think anything is possible. and this whole playoff regarding the pats and the way they've circumvented every single rule makes me think this isn't below them.

frankly the punishment should be harsh. the pats "dynasty" is built on very little talent. even brady is a nobody who all of asudden became great. he was a bum in michigan. so to me, saying "they have brady" doesn't make a lot of sense. i think they are over the line on a lot of items aside from what has been disclosed and the one that isn't being caught is providing a major advantage. no way this team on paper over 15 years can have this result.

[Joe Fo Sho]

As the scandal broke, the NFL was investigating a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during the Jets game, sources told ESPN’s Chris Mortensen, who reported at the time that the Pats did not “have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.”

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

The Pats have already been under investigation for using a 2nd radio frequency to talk to Tom Brady after the 15 second play clock mark. If they were able to cheat that way, it wouldn't seem impossible to do it your way as well.

[DraftBoy]

Do you guys realize how many people would need to be involved in a scandal this size?

[K-Gun]

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

The Pats have already been under investigation for using a 2nd radio frequency to talk to Tom Brady after the 15 second play clock mark. If they were able to cheat that way, it wouldn't seem impossible to do it your way as well.

That's interesting, I wonder if Kyle Orton could have had a HOF career if he had a coach communicating to him which wr's were open during the play itself. Maybe.

[Strongman]

Anything is possible, but I'd have to think the communications are encrypted which would be very difficult to crack. This is probably why Belicheat was doing Spygate to begin with as they couldn't listen in to the other teams in real time.

[Strongman]

Plus, I think anyone with that particular skill set is either working for the NSA, Mossad, or some other country's spy agency, making themselves very wealthy with insider knowledge in the stock exchanges, making themselves wealthy through some other means.

It is doubtful such a person is wasting it on the Patriots.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Do you guys realize how many people would need to be involved in a scandal this size?

A whole bunch. It's just a hypothetical though.

[Strongman]

LOL.. The Browns are now coming under scrutiny for "Textgate"

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/cleveland_browns_ray_farmer_su.html

[trapezeus]

Do you guys realize how many people would need to be involved in a scandal this size?

3. ernie adams, belichick and brady.
and brady keeps accepting off market contracts for being dubbed the greatest qb on earth. and he keeps giving money back. seems suspect to me. and he always does it under the guise of bringing in more talent. and they never do.

[Meathead]

ernie adams, belichick and brady


what are three things that smell like a roxbury street hooker three days into shore leave, alex

[sukie]

Do you guys realize how many people would need to be involved in a scandal this size?

More or less the same number of talented clandestine workers that laced the twin towers with thermite without anyone detecting them or any of them singing like a canary years later....

[DynaPaul]

I honestly don't think you need that many people involved to run it. You really just need your one tech guy who can break the communications and of course it's then sent off to Ernie Adams, Belichick, and Brady. One tech savvy guy can do a lot of damage.

[stuckincincy]

I honestly don't think you need that many people involved to run it. You really just need your one tech guy who can break the communications and of course it's then sent off to Ernie Adams, Belichick, and Brady. One tech savvy guy can do a lot of damage.

Agreed.

[Ingtar33]

This is simply a hypothetical question for the purpose of thinking through an interesting senario.

What if an NFL team employed computer hackers to find a way to monitor the radio transmission of their opponents?

Would this give a team enough of a strategic edge to make a difference in a game like the Super Bowl?

Would a team be able to make a late substitution on a key play in order to insert a player with pre-knowledge of the call in a position to make a big play? If so, would it appear like the player knew where the play was going before it happened?

Just something to think about, not that a team would ever try to steal the signals of another team in a game as big as the Super Bowl. But is it possible? And if so, what would the ramifications be?

this was done in college football. i don't recall which team but i remember the story that floated around for a while. The NO Saints apparently did this as well for years, though they wiretapped locker rooms, the coaching booth and the phones, not the radios.

[Typ0]

The way to take care of all these problems is to strike down expected privacy in communications. Problem solved.

[mightysimi]

I honestly don't think you need that many people involved to run it. You really just need your one tech guy who can break the communications and of course it's then sent off to Ernie Adams, Belichick, and Brady. One tech savvy guy can do a lot of damage.

It's almost next to impossible to figure out something in real-time unless you had the crypto. I believe that most if not all of the cracked transmissions are taped allowing NSA or whoever time to work on it.

[Strongman]

It's almost next to impossible to figure out something in real-time unless you had the crypto. I believe that most if not all of the cracked transmissions are taped allowing NSA or whoever time to work on it.

Exactly. With 268 million encryption codes, they would have to have the transmission security keys to do this. Their hack to get around this was Spygate.

Since the NFL only allows a team to have one "Green Dot" helmet on the field at any given time, if they were going to cheat (not a huge stretch given their background), then they would probably have more than one helmet on the field that was secretly wired.

Hypothetically, this might allow for them to tell someone like Malcolm Butler to watch for the inside slant.

[Strongman]

I honestly don't think you need that many people involved to run it. You really just need your one tech guy who can break the communications and of course it's then sent off to Ernie Adams, Belichick, and Brady. One tech savvy guy can do a lot of damage.

Ernie Adams, according to NFL lore, can instantly diagnose the packages and formations on the field and what teams tend to do in those situations. Because of this, I'm not sure what a tech guy would be able to tell him that he doesn't already know.

The trick is figuring out how he would communicate it to the on field players past the 15 second communication blackout.

[mightysimi]

Ernie Adams, according to NFL lore, can instantly diagnose the packages and formations on the field and what teams tend to do in those situations. Because of this, I'm not sure what a tech guy would be able to tell him that he doesn't already know.

The trick is figuring out how he would communicate it to the on field players past the 15 second communication blackout.

second freq?

[stuckincincy]

Exactly. With 268 million encryption codes, they would have to have the transmission security keys to do this. Their hack to get around this was Spygate.

Since the NFL only allows a team to have one "Green Dot" helmet on the field at any given time, if they were going to cheat (not a huge stretch given their background), then they would probably have more than one helmet on the field that was secretly wired.

Hypothetically, this might allow for them to tell someone like Malcolm Butler to watch for the inside slant.

Dunno about the level of encryption used between the sidelines or press box to a player's helmet receiver... Encrypt and decrypt comes with overhead delay. Takes some time. The more secure, the more time. Wireless signal comm has to bounce up and back from a relay device.

Or are comms so quick these days that my thoughts are ungrounded?

[Strongman]

Dunno about the level of encryption used between the sidelines or press box to a player's helmet receiver... Encrypt and decrypt comes with overhead, delay. Takes some time. Wireless signal comm has to bounce up and back from a relay device.

You can find all about what the NFL uses on the internet. The sources I read said they use 268 million encryption codes and it's all satellite based. That's military grade encryption.

[mightysimi]

Dunno about the level of encryption used between the sidelines or press box to a player's helmet receiver... Encrypt and decrypt comes with overhead delay. Takes some time. The more secure, the more time. Wireless signal comm has to bounce up and back from a relay device.

Or are comms so quick these days that my thoughts are ungrounded?

It's pretty much instant now. The article that I had linked earlier gave a brief description of the new system as opposed to the old one. In the old one you were correct that you had to wait a sec to talk or you wouldn't be heard.

[Strongman]

second freq?

Second frequency or there is some sort of visual signal they are looking at.

[mightysimi]

Second frequency or there is some sort of visual signal they are looking at.

Maybe but I believe the pats were investigated for a possible second freq.

[Strongman]

Maybe but I believe the pats were investigated for a possible second freq.

I know. The NFL did warn teams to not use non-approved frequencies. Given the Cheatriots history, they just found someway around this.

If they aren't using a second radio frequency, then it would almost have to be some visual signal.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

http://nypost.com/2014/10/12/they-are-cheaters-spygate-the-nfl-scandal-that-started-it-all/

The Pats have already been under investigation for using a 2nd radio frequency to talk to Tom Brady after the 15 second play clock mark. If they were able to cheat that way, it wouldn't seem impossible to do it your way as well.

I've been thinking about that, that would seem to be annoying, if I was behind center I would be destracted if I had to hear someone in my ear telling me where to throw the ball.

- - - Updated - - -


Do you guys realize how many people would need to be involved in a scandal this size?

About five or ten really.

[stuckincincy]

It's pretty much instant now. The article that I had linked earlier gave a brief description of the new system as opposed to the old one. In the old one you were correct that you had to wait a sec to talk or you wouldn't be heard.

Any possibility of adding - shall we say - "static" - to the opposing clubs' reception, so their signals are delayed?

[Generalissimus Gibby]

Any possibility of adding - shall we say - "static" - to the opposing clubs' reception, so their signals are delayed?

I have read in multiple places that Gillette Stadium is notorious for this.

[mightysimi]

I have read in multiple places that Gillette Stadium is notorious for this.

Ya I heard it was more the opposing teams headsets somehow wouldn't work during critical game moments.

[stuckincincy]

I have read in multiple places that Gillette Stadium is notorious for this.

A few rapidly-switching, scratchy signal generators bracketing the expected transmission frequency spectrum, triggered briefly, to saturate transmissions when the one you don't love wishes to get sideline instructions...would suffice. The thing is to do it now and then, so that it gets sloughed off, not really noticed, then lay it on so it happens in critical moments. A long time ago, I was into ham radio and S/W. Signal/Noise ratio - what a constant bugaboo...holy decibels, Batman! :earpoke:

[mightysimi]

A few rapidly-switching, scratchy signal generators bracketing the expected transmission frequency spectrum, triggered briefly, to saturate transmissions when the one you don't love wishes to get sideline instructions...would suffice. The thing is to do it now and then, so that it gets sloughed off, not really noticed, then lay it on so it happens in critical moments. A long time ago, I was into ham radio and S/W. Signal/Noise ratio - what a constant bugaboo...holy decibels, Batman! :earpoke:

wouldn't spamming a freq range have adverse affects to civilian frequencies like ATC?

[Joe Fo Sho]

I've been thinking about that, that would seem to be annoying, if I was behind center I would be destracted if I had to hear someone in my ear telling me where to throw the ball.

It could be, yeah. However it's a great advantage to have your coach explaining what the defense is doing up until the snap. Usually at the 15 second mark, the defense isn't set yet, unless you're running hurry up.

It's not just who to throw to though, the coach could just say "hot" to let you know that the rush is coming. He could say "dump" to let you know that the designated dump off is open and should be thrown to. If he wants you throw deep, he could simply say "deep." I imagine that the majority of the time, the coach would be silent so as to not disrupt the QBs thought process too much. Like you said, that could get annoying. I still think there would be ways to make use of this to gain a significant advantage.

[mightysimi]

It could be, yeah. However it's a great advantage to have your coach explaining what the defense is doing up until the snap. Usually at the 15 second mark, the defense isn't set yet, unless you're running hurry up.

It's not just who to throw to though, the coach could just say "hot" to let you know that the rush is coming. He could say "dump" to let you know that the designated dump off is open and should be thrown to. If he wants you throw deep, he could simply say "deep." I imagine that the majority of the time, the coach would be silent so as to not disrupt the QBs thought process too much. Like you said, that could get annoying. I still think there would be ways to make use of this to gain a significant advantage.

Yeah I think telling the QB the coverage and where he should look first even if it's before the play would be a huge advantage.

[Strongman]

I just found a link that is interesting technically. Be forewarned that it does have some racist commentary on it.

http://blockyourid.com/~gbpprorg/nfl/

[Joe Fo Sho]

Yeah I think telling the QB the coverage and where he should look first even if it's before the play would be a huge advantage.

Especially when the coach knows every defensive signal the opposition has.

[Strongman]

A few rapidly-switching, scratchy signal generators bracketing the expected transmission frequency spectrum, triggered briefly, to saturate transmissions when the one you don't love wishes to get sideline instructions...would suffice. The thing is to do it now and then, so that it gets sloughed off, not really noticed, then lay it on so it happens in critical moments. A long time ago, I was into ham radio and S/W. Signal/Noise ratio - what a constant bugaboo...holy decibels, Batman! :earpoke:

While all fans of NFL teams have extreme fans, I think it's fair to say that the Cheatriot fans are more fanatical than the typical NFL fan. It wouldn't surprise me if some of their fans were behind some of the interference. Sort of how like the Buddy Nix phone pranksters were Cheatriot fans.

[Strongman]

It could be, yeah. However it's a great advantage to have your coach explaining what the defense is doing up until the snap. Usually at the 15 second mark, the defense isn't set yet, unless you're running hurry up.

It's not just who to throw to though, the coach could just say "hot" to let you know that the rush is coming. He could say "dump" to let you know that the designated dump off is open and should be thrown to. If he wants you throw deep, he could simply say "deep." I imagine that the majority of the time, the coach would be silent so as to not disrupt the QBs thought process too much. Like you said, that could get annoying. I still think there would be ways to make use of this to gain a significant advantage.

That would be a huge advantage if they did that just on high leverage, critical plays only. It would be interesting to see what their stats are in critical situations compared to other teams.

[stuckincincy]

While all fans of NFL teams have extreme fans, I think it's fair to say that the Cheatriot fans are more fanatical than the typical NFL fan. It wouldn't surprise me if some of their fans were behind some of the interference. Sort of how like the Buddy Nix phone pranksters were Cheatriot fans.


SEA and their fans aren't much to speak of, also. The formerly general feelings and application of oppobrium against cheating have been on the wane the past 30 years or so. The younger generations will have their way.

[Mace]

This is simply a hypothetical question for the purpose of thinking through an interesting senario.

What if an NFL team employed computer hackers to find a way to monitor the radio transmission of their opponents?

Would this give a team enough of a strategic edge to make a difference in a game like the Super Bowl?

Would a team be able to make a late substitution on a key play in order to insert a player with pre-knowledge of the call in a position to make a big play? If so, would it appear like the player knew where the play was going before it happened?

Just something to think about, not that a team would ever try to steal the signals of another team in a game as big as the Super Bowl. But is it possible? And if so, what would the ramifications be?

It's very possible, the NFL won't use layers of encryption, and if any team threw enough money at it, with a Mafia level of Omerta, no reason it wouldn't work.

It discounts audibles though, and only the very worst QB's can't change calls at the line.

I think NFL staffs get a better, less dangerous read by watching probabilities on film, catching player habits and noting matching tendencies.

I wouldn't want to be deciphering what Peyton Mannings gestures, "Omaha's", foot stamps and mutterings mean coming out of a huddle where he told everyone Orange 33, McDonalds, Alpha Pastel Blue, Oregano, in real time before the mic cuts off, and I'm not sure how the substitution time limit figures in if you could.

Regarding multiple frequencies, you'd think the league controls and mandates the devices, but then again, look how they control footballs.