BILLS sign richie incognito

[djjimkelly]

per bills app

there we o line upgrade specifically guard upgrade-------- check

[SpikedLemonade]

Upgrade over who?

I'm not sure Incognito is a NFL starter anymore.

[HHURRICANE]

It's a good pickup and even if he makes the team he's at the veteran minimum.

He could have played last year and nobody took him. My guess is that teams kept him in the penalty box.

[casdhf]

I'm guessing this is short term with little to no guaranteed money. If so I'm ok with it.

[BillsImpossible]

Upgrade over who?

I'm not sure Incognito is a NFL starter anymore.

Did Michael Vick forget how to play quarterback after he got out of jail?

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Did Michael Vick forget how to play quarterback after he got out of jail?

kinda. did you see him last year with the laughingstock known as the jets?
haha

kidding. (sort of) yea, he did ok for the first year or so back

[THE END OF ALL DAYS]

Upgrade over who?

I'm not sure Incognito is a NFL starter anymore.

WTH he was a probowler the last season he played and sat out one season

[SeatownBillsFan21]

Richie is a pretty good guard when his head is right. We needed to upgrade the position they did so today. And should of picked him up last year.

[SpikedLemonade]

Did Michael Vick forget how to play quarterback after he got out of jail?

Was he 31 when he got out of jail?

[Mace]

It's a good pickup and even if he makes the team he's at the veteran minimum.

He could have played last year and nobody took him. My guess is that teams kept him in the penalty box.

It's a bad pickup, three teams tried him out, no penalty box. They passed because he wasn't good enough to make those three teams think he was worth the trouble he brings.

[djjimkelly]

he was a probowler in 2012 problem in 2013 which IMOwas immaturity.

the upside of this signing is he returns back to probowl form and has rested and healed in his year off.

nothing but good can come of this signing worst case they wasted a million best case he returns to probowl form

[Mace]

he was a probowler in 2012 problem in 2013 which IMOwas immaturity.

the upside of this signing is he returns back to probowl form and has rested and healed in his year off.

nothing but good can come of this signing worst case they wasted a million best case he returns to probowl form

Wide eyed oblivious speculation. He was an immature 30 year old 9 year vet on his 3rd team in 2013 ? Please...

Poisoned chemistry in a Rexfest locker room with a bunch of young prospect o-linemen is plenty of not good that can happen, thanks.

Rested and healed or aged and got out of shape not playing ?

Guess we'll see.

[streetkings01]

Upgrade over who?

I'm not sure Incognito is a NFL starter anymore.
He was a pro bowler in 2013

[Mace]

He was a pro bowler in 2013

2012.

[Meathead]

i see both sides of this argument

rexy rolls the dice. lets see what happens

[Mace]

i see both sides of this argument

rexy rolls the dice. lets see what happens

It's something good to argue about at least in the offseason I figure.

[TacklingDummy]

Just made EJ better.

[Mace]

Just made EJ better.

If he doesn't have a breakdown from being scared what Incognito will say. I can picture Tuel already riding on the back of Incognito's bike in hotpants, and Manuel cooking for him on the day off.

[Jry44]

It's a bad pickup, three teams tried him out, no penalty box. They passed because he wasn't good enough to make those three teams think he was worth the trouble he brings.

Did you not see our guard play last season? What's the worst that could possibly happen?

Jeff Darlington is reporting that it's a 1 year deal. How could this possibly be a bad signing? If it doesn't work out, you cut him and lose next to nothing.

[Mace]

Did you not see our guard play last season? What's the worst that could possibly happen?

Jeff Darlington is reporting that it's a 1 year deal. How could this possibly be a bad signing? If it doesn't work out, you cut him and lose next to nothing.

Yeah I did. Urbik belonged at right, Pears not at all, the line coaching was terrible.

Turning Incognito loose among young developing linemen for a year speaks for itself. Well, I dunno, what's the worst that can happen, you blow a year of progressively working young linemen ? Not like we don't have plenty of years ahead.

Do you not recognize how this could possibly be a bad signing ? I mean really ?

[streetkings01]

Yeah I did. Urbik belonged at right, Pears not at all, the line coaching was terrible.

Turning Incognito loose among young developing linemen for a year speaks for itself. Well, I dunno, what's the worst that can happen, you blow a year of progressively working young linemen ? Not like we don't have plenty of years ahead.

Do you not recognize how this could possibly be a bad signing ? I mean really ?yea because Incognito single handily destroyed the Dolphins oline. Never mind the fact that they made him a captain and players on the team supported him over Martin.

[Mace]

yea because Incognito single handily destroyed the Dolphins oline. Never mind the fact that they made him a captain and players on the team supported him over Martin.

....and that he spent the next 18 months after trying out with Denver, KC, and lowly Tampa Bay, on his couch.

I'm not real sure what part of everything out there about Incognito seems unsure to anyone.

[better days]

Well, those of you that are card carrying members of the PC police, that HATE the idea of a bully on your team, I suggest you find a different team of losers to cheer for.

Rex has said he plans to assemble a team of BULLIES, & I love it.

I HATED watching that BULLY Vince Wilfork get away with taking a CHEAP SHOT at JP Losman & get away with it.

You can bet your ass that if some team takes a CHEAP SHOT at this Bills team, they will PAY for it.

Time to stand up to the bullies in New England & around the rest of the NFL.

[jpdex12]

why don't you idiots just let it play out and see what happens? Why waist your lives ranting?

[Meathead]

well like ive said elsewhere, hes a classic dobler kind of bully, which in todays nfl is walking the line and is going to exclude him from some teams

but thats not why he was blackballed, not even close. he made the mistake of getting mixed up in what is a mega-nuclear issue for white ppl right now, which is anything involving blacks that isnt complimentary gets maximum harsh expulsion from everywhere. so even tho this was really an overly sensitive person being targeted by an overly aggressive person, its viewed as 'racial' bc there were reported slurs and thus its no surprise that he was utterly untouchable

i mean we take entire teams away from old white guys that ask their girlfriend in private why they have to hang out with so many black guys, who wants to be known as the team that signs the racist bully? i guess enough time has passed that rex feels comfortable that emotion has passed. we'll see

[jimmifli]

Upgrade over who?

I'm not sure Incognito is a NFL starter anymore.

He's not. And he's still an upgrade over everyone on our roster.

[justasportsfan]

I dont know why people are against signing someone whomwill be blocking for our rb....Ray Rice.

[better days]

well like ive said elsewhere, hes a classic dobler kind of bully, which in todays nfl is walking the line and is going to exclude him from some teams

but thats not why he was blackballed, not even close. he made the mistake of getting mixed up in what is a mega-nuclear issue for white ppl right now, which is anything involving blacks that isnt complimentary gets maximum harsh expulsion from everywhere. so even tho this was really an overly sensitive person being targeted by an overly aggressive person, its viewed as 'racial' bc there were reported slurs and thus its no surprise that he was utterly untouchable

i mean we take entire teams away from old white guys that ask their girlfriend in private why they have to hang out with so many black guys, who wants to be known as the team that signs the racist bully? i guess enough time has passed that rex feels comfortable that emotion has passed. we'll see

Even the PC police have had to acknowledge there was nothing racial about the bullying that was done to the overly sensitive Martin.

If there were any hint of a racial problem, Incognito would have never even had a chance to try out for another team.

[Mace]

well like ive said elsewhere, hes a classic dobler kind of bully, which in todays nfl is walking the line and is going to exclude him from some teams

Amazingly, I remember Dobler well, and almost posted an article on him when this came out. Dobler kept his private biz to himself, you never heard about him torching his own locker room, they loved his mean self being on their side, he loved them for being on his, and he always took pains to control himself enough to abuse everyone when he figured the refs weren't looking. Leg whipped Dutton too prominently, spit on the injured LB Bergey, only ever admits to biting a Viking, punched Mean Joe Green in the head, made a defensive linemen break down in a game, aggravated the gentle Merlin Olsen to including his tombstone in a TV series, head slapped his way to mean when head slaps were legal, eye gouged, solar plexus punched and nastied his way through a diff time in the sport.

Dobler was a better guard pass/run than Incognito and actually controlled himself in a relative fashion for the day. There weren't any actual rules against half the stuff he did then because that stuff was thought to be insanely beyond the scope of the sport, besides leg whips. He never whaled the tar out of his Ferrari with a baseball bat, or drove his companions to fits.

Incognito is no Dobler, who only bullied people he faced over a mean line of scrimmage.

[better days]

Amazingly, I remember Dobler well, and almost posted an article on him when this came out. Dobler kept his private biz to himself, you never heard about him torching his own locker room, they loved his mean self being on their side, he loved them for being on his, and he always took pains to control himself enough to abuse everyone when he figured the refs weren't looking. Leg whipped Dutton too prominently, spit on the injured LB Bergey, only ever admits to biting a Viking, punched Mean Joe Green in the head, made a defensive linemen break down in a game, aggravated the gentle Merlin Olsen to including his tombstone in a TV series, head slapped his way to mean when head slaps were legal, eye gouged, solar plexus punched and nastied his way through a diff time in the sport.

Dobler was a better guard pass/run than Incognito and actually controlled himself in a relative fashion for the day. There weren't any actual rules against half the stuff he did then because that stuff was thought to be insanely beyond the scope of the sport, besides leg whips. He never whaled the tar out of his Ferrari with a baseball bat, or drove his companions to fits.

Incognito is no Dobler, who only bullied people he faced over a mean line of scrimmage.

I loved watching Dobler play, especially after he became a Bill.

I loved Dobler's response to a reporters question of biting a defensive lineman's fingers.

Dobler said, "If I did, what was his hand doing inside my face mask?"

[DraftBoy]

Embarrassing.

[better days]

Embarrassing.

Maybe the Falcons would be a good team for you to follow.

You do love their new HC after all.

[Mace]

I'm bowing out a while, my gf showed up with Labatts light and a pizza, wearing this cute fuzzy hat and we are going to watch Along Came Polly on Netflix before we break up again later.

[better days]

I'm bowing out a while, my gf showed up with Labatts light and a pizza, wearing this cute fuzzy hat and we are going to watch Along Came Polly on Netflix before we break up again later.

Don't break up, just opt out.

[DraftBoy]

Maybe the Falcons would be a good team for you to follow.

You do love their new HC after all.

Thank you for illustrating my point for me. I can always count on you.

[feldspar]

I'm bowing out a while, my gf showed up with Labatts light and a pizza, wearing this cute fuzzy hat and we are going to watch Along Came Polly on Netflix before we break up again later.

My girlfriend made me watch "Along Came Polly" as well...more than once. Only there was no beer, pizza, nor fuzzy hat involved.

Not so bad the first time, but who needs to see it again?

[better days]

Thank you for illustrating my point for me. I can always count on you.

You are welcome.

Just trying to save you from further embarrassment.

Be prepared for much more of that if you stick around, now the Bills have an aggressive HC finally.

LMAO at you being embarrassed.

[DraftBoy]

You are welcome.

Just trying to save you from further embarrassment.

Be prepared for much more of that if you stick around, now the Bills have an aggressive HC finally.

LMAO at you being embarrassed.

Just sad.

[better days]

Just sad.

So sad for you.

[DraftBoy]

So sad for you.
Not at all actually.

[X-Era]

1 year 2.25mill for a guy who could end up starting? I'm fine with this.

https://twitter.com/mikerodak/status/564242711902175233

[k-oneputt]

Anybody that smashes his own Ferrari with a baseball bat is fine to be a guard on my favorite team.

[Historian]

Just made EJ better.

Okay....who are you and what have you done with our tackling dummy?

[YardRat]

If my team is going to skirt the boundaries to try and improve, I'd much rather they do it by taking chances on players with questionable characters or classic under-achievers that still have the opportunity to fulfill their potential or overcome their past than by using tampering, cameras, or air pumps.

[Night Train]

Urbik belonged at right

Urbik belongs on waivers. He couldn't anchor at all and was routinely destroyed. Pears tried to top him. Good riddance to both.

Not sure of the signing either but once the FA/draft time is completed, I expect to see a couple more interior lineman added because Rex/Roman know they have zero chance of running the ball successfully with the current weak makeup. Load up the competition and may the best players win.

[YardRat]

Even the PC police have had to acknowledge there was nothing racial about the bullying that was done to the overly sensitive Martin.

If there were any hint of a racial problem, Incognito would have never even had a chance to try out for another team.

I've jumped into conversations in the past on a few occasions to support you when it appeared to me that you were being unfairly criticized for being a homer, but if you're going to start down the path where Incognito's previous transgressions are summarily dismissed because he's now a Buffalo Bill I'm not hopping on that bandwagon.

[Strongman]

At one year for $2.25 million, this does seem like a low risk, medium reward type signing. With leaders in the locker room like Kyle Williams, Eric Wood, and FJax, I don't think there will be any incidents. If he wants to play in the NFL ever again after this year, it's in his best interest to behave and be a model teammate.

I'll never be a fan of his though.

[Luisito23]

I don't care about his past, nor being "nice".

The guy's an upgrade and that's all that matters...

With this new owner, new coach and new aggressive attitude, I really can't wait for things to come.

It might not all work out, but damn, at least we're finally trying.

:gobills:

[Night Train]

I would also hope to learn that he worked in some rehab type program this past year. Otherwise, I find it hard to believe Kim Pegula would just go along with this.

[mush69]

I'm really liking this addition. We need personality up front blocking for our running backs. If Hederson pans out we could have the best run blockers in the game. Incognito was a favorite of mine when he was here the first time and I never did understand why they let him go, same with Levetri.

[better days]

I've jumped into conversations in the past on a few occasions to support you when it appeared to me that you were being unfairly criticized for being a homer, but if you're going to start down the path where Incognito's previous transgressions are summarily dismissed because he's now a Buffalo Bill I'm not hopping on that bandwagon.

I appreciate your past support Rat.

As far as Incognito, he is no choir boy & I realize that, but he is no criminal either.

People on this board have advocated giving Mike Vick a second chance.

I think Incognito deserves a second chance & I'm sure he is on a short leash.

If he keeps his nose clean & plays well, Incognito will be the starter in September.

If not, oh well, nothing lost really.

But with this signing, I think Rex is sending a message to the rest of the NFL, the Bills won't be pushed around anymore.

[better days]

Urbik belongs on waivers. He couldn't anchor at all and was routinely destroyed. Pears tried to top him. Good riddance to both.

Not sure of the signing either but once the FA/draft time is completed, I expect to see a couple more interior lineman added because Rex/Roman know they have zero chance of running the ball successfully with the current weak makeup. Load up the competition and may the best players win.

Urbik has never been great, but he was decent at RG.

Marrone in his infinite wisdom moved Urbik to LG.

Ian Beckels, former OL for the Bucs has said it is a world of difference between playing on the right or left.

He said some guys can handle the switch while others can't.

I think Urbik should be given the chance to compete at RG in Camp & as you said, may the best players win.

[DraftBoy]

I appreciate your past support Rat.

As far as Incognito, he is no choir boy & I realize that, but he is no criminal either.

People on this board have advocated giving Mike Vick a second chance.

I think Incognito deserves a second chance & I'm sure he is on a short leash.

If he keeps his nose clean & plays well, Incognito will be the starter in September.

If not, oh well, nothing lost really.

But with this signing, I think Rex is sending a message to the rest of the NFL, the Bills won't be pushed around anymore.

Yes but this is not Incognito's second chance. This is closer to his fourth chance.

At the end of the day people are going to value things differently. Some will think dog fighting is the worse transgression, some will think trying to completely dehumanize a fellow man is. We can agree to disagree on those things, but the actions of multiple fans to act like what he did was no big deal or to attack those that take issue with it simply because he signed with the Bills is an embarrassment.

You'll probably notice I didn't include domestic violence and that's because I hope that we can all agree that takes the cake. At least I hope.

[notacon]

This just shows what a terrible start Pegula has shown as a new NFL owner. He doesn't have the first clue what he is doing.

I said months ago that he needed to clean house COMPLETELY!!! The dopes that have screwed up draft after draft and made some of very questionable player decisions are still in charge. Jesus. Any dope can see what needed to be done. Pegula better get his **** together soon, or this team is going nowhere fast.

This signing in monumentally stupid!

[The Jokeman]

At one year for $2.25 million, this does seem like a low risk, medium reward type signing. With leaders in the locker room like Kyle Williams, Eric Wood, and FJax, I don't think there will be any incidents. If he wants to play in the NFL ever again after this year, it's in his best interest to behave and be a model teammate.

I'll never be a fan of his though.

Ugh I hate to say it but I don't see Wood as a leader type. I know he has that role but it's one I just don't see as a good thing and might be why we've struggled making the playoffs. That said Wood did step up for Incognito when the whole bully scandal first broke which is probably part of why Whaley thought it was a safe thing to bring him back. I'm okay with the move as long as Incognito behaves if he acts up then I cut him. He's kind of like the Henderson signing last year. It was a risk but a risk worth taking. Hopefully it turns out to be a positive.

[better days]

Yes but this is not Incognito's second chance. This is closer to his fourth chance.

At the end of the day people are going to value things differently. Some will think dog fighting is the worse transgression, some will think trying to completely dehumanize a fellow man is. We can agree to disagree on those things, but the actions of multiple fans to act like what he did was no big deal or to attack those that take issue with it simply because he signed with the Bills is an embarrassment.

You'll probably notice I didn't include domestic violence and that's because I hope that we can all agree that takes the cake. At least I hope.

I would place domestic violence only behind murder & rape as far as transgressions go.

There is no question Incognito bullied Martin, but I think in his mind Ritchie was trying to help his friend improve his game with what he considered to be tough love.

Martin could not win the starting job on the 49ers last year when they could have used help on the OL.

No question Incognito has been crude, obnoxious & politically incorrect in the past.

I would bet he will watch his P's & Q's off the field while on the Bills.

Pretty sure Incognito is on double secret probation with the Bills.

[Discotrish]

Incognito banished to Siberia!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/1f/f5/47/1ff547796bb2663ae223281718296ca7.jpg

http://b15noticias.com.mx/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2fc352ec25ab47c39836181659ec9cc4.jpg

Patti

[BertSquirtgum]

Shouldn't have let him go the first time. Stupid Chanly

[BertSquirtgum]

Upgrade over who?

I'm not sure Incognito is a NFL starter anymore.

Smoke another one.

[Strongman]

Ugh I hate to say it but I don't see Wood as a leader type. I know he has that role but it's one I just don't see as a good thing and might be why we've struggled making the playoffs. That said Wood did step up for Incognito when the whole bully scandal first broke which is probably part of why Whaley thought it was a safe thing to bring him back. I'm okay with the move as long as Incognito behaves if he acts up then I cut him. He's kind of like the Henderson signing last year. It was a risk but a risk worth taking. Hopefully it turns out to be a positive.

Wood's leadership in the locker room was something I read sometime back when he was made a captain. I just took it at face value. I have no idea if it's true or the typical PR stuff that comes out from time to time. I agree that Icognito needs to be cut if he becomes a problem. He might be the best guard on the roster right now, but it isn't worth it if he disrupts team chemistry. I hope he's on a short leash.

[BertSquirtgum]

It's something good to argue about at least in the offseason I figure.

You're really wondering whether Rex can control him? If anybody can keep this guy in check Rex can.

[justasportsfan]

At least Rexy wouldn't sign questionable people who would trip players on the sideline...... Oh wait

[justasportsfan]

Anybody that smashes his own Ferrari with a baseball bat is fine to be a guard on my favorite team.

Maybe he'll smash Dareus' Toyota Yaris

[Meathead]

saying siberia is one big hockey rink has got to be racist somehow

[better days]

The message board on the official site has a poll about the Incognito signing.

So far, 90% of the voters are in favor of the signing of Incognito

[YardRat]

I ran across a poll from a Panther's blogger this morning, and 66% of those voted it was a good signing also.

[stuckincincy]

saying siberia is one big hockey rink has got to be racist somehow


I'd bet that at least 50% of the current Russian population started out life suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome.

I remember my 1st visit across the Iron Curtain - into E. Germany. They recorded the time to drive to Berlin to make sure you didn't stray. You and your vehicle were of course searched for cameras and/or recording devices.

There was a checkpoint before entry into W. Berlin. They rousted you out of the vehicle and took your passport off of you and so you sat for an hour or so. In a filthy, open room with junky SKS carbines trained on you...there's probably not a rifle more prone to misfire than a SKS.

If you claimed some other destination other than W. Berlin...God help you.

Folks think that is was only the Berlin border - not so. I've pics of the wall that ran the length of Europe. No-man's land, feet after feet of salted dirt and barbed wire, anti-personnel mines around city regions, walls, towers manned 24/7 with machine guns.

That's socialism for ya.

[DraftBoy]

I would place domestic violence only behind murder & rape as far as transgressions go.

There is no question Incognito bullied Martin, but I think in his mind Ritchie was trying to help his friend improve his game with what he considered to be tough love.

Martin could not win the starting job on the 49ers last year when they could have used help on the OL.

No question Incognito has been crude, obnoxious & politically incorrect in the past.

I would bet he will watch his P's & Q's off the field while on the Bills.

Pretty sure Incognito is on double secret probation with the Bills.

This isn't just about what happened with Martin though. There were two other victims of what Incognito, Jerry, and Pouncey did in Miami. They completely dehumanized an assistant trainer on the staff. How anybody can justify those actions is far beyond anything I can understand or ever wish to.

Martin's ability to play in the NFL has no relevance in this discussion, nor does it justify anything that the three OL did.

Crude, obnoxious, and politically incorrect? Are you serious? How about there is no question that he's been a bigot, a racist, or a complete ****head of a human being.

I asked this in the other thread and I'll ask it again. Why does this guy deserve another chance exactly?

[imbondz]

Just because we signed him doesn't mean he's going to make the team. Hopefully he's not a dick anymore and understands the opportunity. I hate locker room cancers and the last thing this team needs is someone who ruins team chemistry.

[Novacane]

why don't you idiots just let it play out and see what happens? Why waist your lives ranting?



Cause the sand in their vaginas is driving them crazy!

[imbondz]

This isn't just about what happened with Martin though. There were two other victims of what Incognito, Jerry, and Pouncey did in Miami. They completely dehumanized an assistant trainer on the staff. How anybody can justify those actions is far beyond anything I can understand or ever wish to.

Martin's ability to play in the NFL has no relevance in this discussion, nor does it justify anything that the three OL did.

Crude, obnoxious, and politically incorrect? Are you serious? How about there is no question that he's been a bigot, a racist, or a complete ****head of a human being.

I asked this in the other thread and I'll ask it again. Why does this guy deserve another chance exactly?



If he doesn't deserve another chance, then neither does anyone who's been convicted of domestic violence, failed drug tests, dog fighting, etc…

I'd be fine with him and a bunch of other guys completely losing their chance to compete in the NFL. We'd all be fired from our jobs if we did half the things some of NFL players get 2nd, and 3rd chances for...

[stuckincincy]

I asked this in the other thread and I'll ask it again. Why does this guy deserve another chance exactly?

Little...if any. Any competent mental health professional (or any police department) already has the book on him.

[DraftBoy]

If he doesn't deserve another chance, then neither does anyone who's been convicted of domestic violence, failed drug tests, dog fighting, etc…

I'd be fine with him and a bunch of other guys completely losing their chance to compete in the NFL. We'd all be fired from our jobs if we did half the things some of NFL players get 2nd, and 3rd chances for...

Why? Incognito has had multiple chances prior to this one. Why do we suddenly have to loop everybody else into one broad category?

[YardRat]

Why? Incognito has had multiple chances prior to this one. Why do we suddenly have to loop everybody else into one broad category?

Where does one draw the line between 'deserves another chance' and 'doesn't'?

[DraftBoy]

Where does one draw the line between 'deserves another chance' and 'doesn't'?

I think first we need to define what "another chance" is and how many of these "chances" we're willing to offer.

[swiper]

Where does one draw the line between 'deserves another chance' and 'doesn't'?

My opinion would have a lot of stars out of the NFL.

There was a time when men played in the NFL. Now its a league of thugs.

[EDS]

Terry and Rex guiding the Bills to the bottom of the human cesspool. Vick and Rice are undoubtedly the two next signings.

[YardRat]

I think first we need to define what "another chance" is and how many of these "chances" we're willing to offer.

Part of that is why I used the term 'another' instead of pre-defining it with 'second' or 'third'.

I'm up for your interpretation of how many, and what 'another' chance means.

[DraftBoy]

Part of that is why I used the term 'another' instead of pre-defining it with 'second' or 'third'.

I'm up for your interpretation of how many, and what 'another' chance means.

To me "another" chance would be defined as the opportunity to play in the NFL again after serving a league mandated suspension. As for how many I'm not sure that's a scale for me to set.

What are your interpretations?

[YardRat]

I'm good with your interpretation of 'another chance', and I would offer the number of chances be left to the market, unless otherwise regulated by the league and/or CBA. If there are no restrictions already on the books, an individual has a 'right' to another chance as long as there is another party willing to take the gamble on him.

[Novacane]

Where does one draw the line between 'deserves another chance' and 'doesn't'?


The NFL and any team that chooses to sign these guys decide where that line is.

[DraftBoy]

I'm good with your interpretation of 'another chance', and I would offer the number of chances be left to the market, unless otherwise regulated by the league and/or CBA. If there are no restrictions already on the books, an individual has a 'right' to another chance as long as there is another party willing to take the gamble on him.

Agreed, but a right to and deserves to are not the same.

[Novacane]

My opinion would have a lot of stars out of the NFL.

There was a time when men played in the NFL. Now its a league of thugs.



Is is really though? We didn't have anywhere near the media back then that we have now. Who knows what guys did that we never heard about.
Take any group of 1700 + people and your'e going to have a fair share of aholes. I'd like to see % comparisons between the league and the general public.

[YardRat]

Agreed, but a right to and deserves to are not the same.

OK, I'll re-phrase...If there are no restrictions already on the books, an individual 'deserves' another chance as long as there is another party willing to take the gamble on him.

[WagonCircler]

My opinion would have a lot of stars out of the NFL.

There was a time when men played in the NFL. Now its a league of thugs.

This^^ x 1,000.

[DraftBoy]

OK, I'll re-phrase...If there are no restrictions already on the books, an individual 'deserves' another chance as long as there is another party willing to take the gamble on him.

Agree to disagree.

[YardRat]

Agree to disagree.

You've already stated you didn't think it was a scale for you set, but when somebody presents one you disagree, which indicates you do have a scale. What is it?

[DraftBoy]

You've already stated you didn't think it was a scale for you set, but when somebody presents one you disagree, which indicates you do have a scale. What is it?

You blurred the line between right to (which I agree with) and deserves to (which I don't agree with).

[YardRat]

You blurred the line between right to (which I agree with) and deserves to (which I don't agree with).

Your 'scale' comment, though, was prior to my phrasing the question with either 'right' or 'deserves'. Do you have a scale for 'deserves'?

[BertSquirtgum]

This isn't just about what happened with Martin though. There were two other victims of what Incognito, Jerry, and Pouncey did in Miami. They completely dehumanized an assistant trainer on the staff. How anybody can justify those actions is far beyond anything I can understand or ever wish to.

Martin's ability to play in the NFL has no relevance in this discussion, nor does it justify anything that the three OL did.

Crude, obnoxious, and politically incorrect? Are you serious? How about there is no question that he's been a bigot, a racist, or a complete ****head of a human being.

I asked this in the other thread and I'll ask it again. Why does this guy deserve another chance exactly?

Because he's a good football player and that's what the Bills need.

[DraftBoy]

Your 'scale' comment, though, was prior to my phrasing the question with either 'right' or 'deserves'. Do you have a scale for 'deserves'?

Yes in reference whether a player gets another chance or not. That does not mean that I, you, or 31 other GM's necessairly believe that player deserves the chance they are allowed to have. Like I said you blurred the lines and that's what I don't agree with.

Do you have a end point? Because right now we're playing a pointless game of semantics on the basis of right, deserve, and an irrelevant scale that is different from all 8 billion people in the world. Now don't get me wrong, I can talk semantics till the cows come home but I figure you have something more important to point out?

- - - Updated - - -


Because he's a good football player and that's what the Bills need.

That's completely speculative right now. We don't know how good or bad he is. He hasn't played a down in 18 months.

[BertSquirtgum]

That's completely speculative right now. We don't know how good or bad he is. He hasn't played a down in 18 months.

Horse****.

[Mace]

Urbik belongs on waivers. He couldn't anchor at all and was routinely destroyed. Pears tried to top him. Good riddance to both.

Not sure of the signing either but once the FA/draft time is completed, I expect to see a couple more interior lineman added because Rex/Roman know they have zero chance of running the ball successfully with the current weak makeup. Load up the competition and may the best players win.

I can't really agree. Urbik belonged on the right, that's his position. Right, left, what's the diff.....well, you must have seen the zone blocking shenanigans Pat Morris was engineering.

Pears had no biz at RG, because as I said he was less than Urbik, who should have been at RG, and Pears was about as Henderson as Henderson was Pears. Boot Pears at this point, sure.

But I can only say again they went into the season with an RG (Urbik) who could be upgraded as it went, no argument there, same with RT, and a LG weakness. They manufactured LG, RG and RT issues from it.

I really didn't see Urbik being routinely destroyed. It's not fashionable to say it, but Urbik is a capable guard, again not spectacular or all-pro. What I saw, was that when they put Urbik in where he didn't belong, the line stabilized immediately, if not becoming amazing. I'm still fine with Urbik starting at right guard.

Incognito is a left guard. Imho, they should have gone after Iupati for LG, and trusted someone to win the job at RG. My thought is that they rolled obliviously on bargain basement damaged goods discard Incognito to avoid paying for Iupati. I won't be surprised if Urbik wins the job at right, though hopefully Richardson will do better under not Marron/Morris.

But I just didn't see what others claim about Urbik being lost.

[DraftBoy]

Horse****.

Ok then prove it.

[BertSquirtgum]

Ok then prove it.

I can't but he will in the summer.

[DraftBoy]

I can't but he will in the summer.

In other words is speculative for now.

[Mace]

In other words is speculative for now.

That's pretty much the whole argument in a nutshell. Maybe Incognito is 2012 Incognito but reformed from being the previous Incognito who went through 3 NFL teams and 2 colleges because he was immature until he was 30.

[BertSquirtgum]

I don't care how racist he is. As long as he can get the job done and help the Bills win it's all good to me. I know a bunch of racist *******s where I work but they do good work and that's all that matters sometimes.

[imbondz]

Why? Incognito has had multiple chances prior to this one. Why do we suddenly have to loop everybody else into one broad category?

Ummm. Because domestic violence is a little worse than incognito calling someone names. You say he shouldn't be given another chance, but you think worse offenders should? Huh?

[Mace]

Ummm. Because domestic violence is a little worse than incognito calling someone names. You say he shouldn't be given another chance, but you think worse offenders should? Huh?

I think more he meant Incognito is undeniably on his 5th team, 2 college 3 pro, heading toward 32, hasn't played in 18 months, was blown off by 3 teams last year, brings along a string of obvious issues and is still being expected to suddenly gain some level of perspective and maturity where suddenly he snaps together whole and fresh after 9 years as a veteran lineman.

You really have to admit it is uncommon to say the least.

[better days]

Why? Incognito has had multiple chances prior to this one. Why do we suddenly have to loop everybody else into one broad category?


Incognito has offended the PC police, nothing more than that. Incognito has done NOTHING ILLEGAL.

Yet the PC police are all for letting criminals have second, third, fourth chances LMAO.

[bleve]

Well, out of all his previous gigs, it seems like the cup of coffee he had with the Bills was the one where there was no known off field issues - albeit a short stay.

He even had a tweet a year ago (before he knew he would be coming back) that he loved his time in Buffalo.

So, maybe there's something in the water...

[DraftBoy]

Incognito has offended the PC police, nothing more than that. Incognito has done NOTHING ILLEGAL.

Yet the PC police are all for letting criminals have second, third, fourth chances LMAO.

The fact that the only thing you can say to defend Incognito's repugnant behavior is that it wasn't illegal should give you pause.

[DraftBoy]

Ummm. Because domestic violence is a little worse than incognito calling someone names. You say he shouldn't be given another chance, but you think worse offenders should? Huh?

Where did I say any of that? How about instead of attempting to jump to completely false conclusions, you instead read the posts and make an attempt to at least engage in the dialogue.

[k-oneputt]

You do realize he works in the NFL. His office is a football lockerrroom and a football field. This isn't your typical work/office setting. Incognito may be an a-hole but there are many in that league who are worse. I'm all for giving him a chance again.
And last I knew Martin is 6'5'' 320 lbs, wtf stand up for yourself.

[imbondz]

Where did I say any of that? How about instead of attempting to jump to completely false conclusions, you instead read the posts and make an attempt to at least engage in the dialogue.


eeeeasy there. I misunderstood your reply to my post...



If he doesn't deserve another chance, then neither does anyone who's been convicted of domestic violence, failed drug tests, dog fighting, etc…

I'd be fine with him and a bunch of other guys completely losing their chance to compete in the NFL. We'd all be fired from our jobs if we did half the things some of NFL players get 2nd, and 3rd chances for...




Why? Incognito has had multiple chances prior to this one. Why do we suddenly have to loop everybody else into one broad category?



I wasn't looping, all I was saying is if you feel Incognito should not be given a 2nd chance, which I could understand, then it reasons those who've committed worse offenses shouldn't as well…the Ray Rices, Michael Vicks…none of us would be given 2nd chances if we did half the things those guys have been convicted/accused of.

[better days]

The fact that the only thing you can say to defend Incognito's repugnant behavior is that it wasn't illegal should give you pause.

I already said, I realize Incognito is not a choir boy. I wouldn't want him to date my sister, but I am happy to have him on the Bills OL to deal with the likes of Vince Wilfork.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I miss the days where we knew nothing about these guys off the field. Back when I was younger, either the off the field nonsense didn't make the news or I was too young to worry/hear about it. All I want from these guys is to be entertained on Sundays and then be able to talk/argue about the games with my friends during the rest of the week. I don't care about what these guys do off the field, as long as they show up on Sunday.

After the whole Incognito/Martin thing was over, it was clear that Martin was a better person than Incognito. That said, I'd rather have Incognito starting for my team.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Next we sign Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson!

[Mr. Miyagi]

Are we building a football team or a church choir?

Especially for linemen we need the biggest and toughest bad asses. Nice guys finish last in this case. As long as they don't cost us a hundred penalties and suspensions, bring them all in. You think they have a bunch of nice guys on the Baltimore/Seattle/Detroit defenses? Think again.

[better days]

Next we sign Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson!

I would love to have Peterson on the Bills but I think the Cowboys will sign him.

[DraftBoy]

eeeeasy there. I misunderstood your reply to my post...










I wasn't looping, all I was saying is if you feel Incognito should not be given a 2nd chance, which I could understand, then it reasons those who've committed worse offenses shouldn't as well…the Ray Rices, Michael Vicks…none of us would be given 2nd chances if we did half the things those guys have been convicted/accused of.

As I've now repeated a few times, this isn't Incognito's 2nd chance.

[justasportsfan]

MY question is this, Incognito played for the bills. I think the bills organization would have knowledge of how he handled himself here, no?

I know WHaley came here the year after Incognito came but I'm sure there are several players who played with him that are still on the roster.

[DraftBoy]

I already said, I realize Incognito is not a choir boy. I wouldn't want him to date my sister, but I am happy to have him on the Bills OL to deal with the likes of Vince Wilfork.

Nobody is asking him to be a choir boy or date your sister. You're operating in this land where there are two choices choir boy nice who gets whipped in the trenches and repugnant ahole who doesn't take any crap, takes poor penalties, and is a hot head.

Being able to not take any crap in the trenches doesn't mean you have to be an ahole, and it certainly doesn't grant you free reign to terrorize people because of it.

[DraftBoy]

I miss the days where we knew nothing about these guys off the field. Back when I was younger, either the off the field nonsense didn't make the news or I was too young to worry/hear about it. All I want from these guys is to be entertained on Sundays and then be able to talk/argue about the games with my friends during the rest of the week. I don't care about what these guys do off the field, as long as they show up on Sunday.

After the whole Incognito/Martin thing was over, it was clear that Martin was a better person than Incognito. That said, I'd rather have Incognito starting for my team.

This went beyond just Incognito and Martin, did you read the Wells report? Incognito led a trio of Dolphins OL in an attempt to dehumanize an assistant trainer on the Dolphins staff.

You want to argue the Martin stuff was one big joke and just guys being guys in a locker room, ok I can at least see that point (though I completely disagree with it), but to verbally assault a staff member for no good reason? Why? Just to get Incognito's jolly's off? That's the guy we want on our team?

No thanks.

[BertSquirtgum]

Next we sign Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson!

Hopefully

[Mr. Miyagi]

Nobody is asking him to be a choir boy or date your sister. You're operating in this land where there are two choices choir boy nice who gets whipped in the trenches and repugnant ahole who doesn't take any crap, takes poor penalties, and is a hot head.

Being able to not take any crap in the trenches doesn't mean you have to be an ahole, and it certainly doesn't grant you free reign to terrorize people because of it.
What do we have to lose? If he can play and doesn't take us back with penalties and suspensions, I don't care if he's an a-hole. God knows our OLine is soft as hell, can probably use some toughening up. If he sucks then we cut him. It's not like he's costing us huge money.

[Joe Fo Sho]

This went beyond just Incognito and Martin, did you read the Wells report? Incognito led a trio of Dolphins OL in an attempt to dehumanize an assistant trainer on the Dolphins staff.

You want to argue the Martin stuff was one big joke and just guys being guys in a locker room, ok I can at least see that point (though I completely disagree with it), but to verbally assault a staff member for no good reason? Why? Just to get Incognito's jolly's off? That's the guy we want on our team?

No thanks.

I admit to not reading the Wells Report, but I have read most of what you've said on this thread. I just don't care.

I'm not arguing that the Martin stuff was a joke, I'm saying that I wish I didn't know about it. Even knowing about it, I just don't care.

I assume what he did to the assistant trainer was as bad as you've pointed out. I just don't care.

Does any of this stuff affect his performance on the field? If not, I just don't care.

If it does affect his performance, I leave it to the Bills coaching staff to bench him. If they do bench him, I don't want to hear a reason other than his performance on the field was lacking, because I just don't care.

I understand where you're coming from, and I completely understand it. I'm not telling you you're wrong and I'm not saying I'm right, please don't take this post as me demeaning your opinion. I'm just stating my opinion of all of this off the field noise, and as I'm sure you can tell, I just don't care about it.

[DraftBoy]

What do we have to lose? If he can play and doesn't take us back with penalties and suspensions, I don't care if he's an a-hole. God knows our OLine is soft as hell, can probably use some toughening up. If he sucks then we cut him. It's not like he's costing us huge money.

Give me a legitimate reason to give this guy another shot over somebody else.

The what if game doesn't fly given everything we know on the field (age, out of the game for 18 months, and propensity to take dumbass penalties) even when you subtract out the off the field stuff.

[DraftBoy]

I admit to not reading the Wells Report, but I have read most of what you've said on this thread. I just don't care.

I'm not arguing that the Martin stuff was a joke, I'm saying that I wish I didn't know about it. Even knowing about it, I just don't care.

I assume what he did to the assistant trainer was as bad as you've pointed out. I just don't care.

Does any of this stuff affect his performance on the field? If not, I just don't care.

If it does affect his performance, I leave it to the Bills coaching staff to bench him. If they do bench him, I don't want to hear a reason other than his performance on the field was lacking, because I just don't care.

I understand where you're coming from, and I completely understand it. I'm not telling you you're wrong and I'm not saying I'm right, please don't take this post as me demeaning your opinion. I'm just stating my opinion of all of this off the field noise, and as I'm sure you can tell, I just don't care about it.

Having apathy is swell, but it doesn't change the fact that we do know and acting like we don't care just showcases an acceptance that this kind of behavior is acceptable. Why should we allow that? You wouldn't allow it in your own workplace but it's acceptable because he plays for a football team?

[Joe Fo Sho]

Having apathy is swell, but it doesn't change the fact that we do know and acting like we don't care just showcases an acceptance that this kind of behavior is acceptable.

It sure does.


Why should we allow that?

Because I just don't care. I don't know these people, and I don't care about them on a personal level.


You wouldn't allow it in your own workplace but it's acceptable because he plays for a football team?

Yes, because I consider my entertainment to be the sole purpose of the NFL. It's not my job to keep bullying or harrassment out of the locker room.

[DraftBoy]

It sure does.

Well that's an awfully scary way to view life.


Because I just don't care. I don't know these people, and I don't care about them on a personal level.

Nobody asked you if you knew them or cared for them. This has never and will never be about that.


Yes, because I consider my entertainment to be the sole purpose of the NFL. It's not my job to keep bullying or harrassment out of the locker room.

Sweet and you're cool with the message you apathy and acceptance says to others who watch football every Sunday? Not really something I'd be ok with, but to each their own I suppose.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Well that's an awfully scary way to view life.

Not really. It's how I view the game of football, it has nothing to do with life. I can differentiate between the two.


Sweet and you're cool with the message you apathy and acceptance says to others who watch football every Sunday? Not really something I'd be ok with, but to each their own I suppose.

What am I a role model now? If people are looking to me for guidance, they have much bigger problems than how they're going to view NFL players.

[YardRat]

Yes in reference whether a player gets another chance or not. That does not mean that I, you, or 31 other GM's necessairly believe that player deserves the chance they are allowed to have. Like I said you blurred the lines and that's what I don't agree with.

Do you have a end point? Because right now we're playing a pointless game of semantics on the basis of right, deserve, and an irrelevant scale that is different from all 8 billion people in the world. Now don't get me wrong, I can talk semantics till the cows come home but I figure you have something more important to point out?

- - - Updated - - -



That's completely speculative right now. We don't know how good or bad he is. He hasn't played a down in 18 months.

No point, really, just trying to find out where you draw lines in the sand.

[better days]

As I've now repeated a few times, this isn't Incognito's 2nd chance.

AS I have said before, Incognito has not broken any laws. He is not a criminal that needs a second chance or more.

I think it is good to have an AHOLE on the team to deal with the AHOLES/CHEAP SHOT ARTISTS like Wilfork on other teams.

[better days]

Give me a legitimate reason to give this guy another shot over somebody else.

The what if game doesn't fly given everything we know on the field (age, out of the game for 18 months, and propensity to take dumbass penalties) even when you subtract out the off the field stuff.

Here is a legitimate reason to give Incognito another shot, Rex & the Bills think Richie is worth a shot because they believe he can help the team.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Here is a legitimate reason to give Incognito another shot, Rex & the Bills think Richie is worth a shot because they believe he can help the team.

Good enough for me.

[GingerP]

AS I have said before, Incognito has not broken any laws. He is not a criminal that needs a second chance or more.

Actually he has broken laws. He was found guilty of misdemeanor assault in college for a cold-cocking a guy at a party, and misdemeanor attempted possession of drug paraphernalia in Arizona (where he lives).

[k-oneputt]

Actually he has broken laws. He was found guilty of misdemeanor assault in college for a cold-cocking a guy at a party, and misdemeanor attempted possession of drug paraphernalia in Arizona (where he lives).

A college football player in a fight at a party. NNNOOOO !!!! I don't believe it. Big freaking deal.

[Bill Cody]

In an ideal world he pushes our younger players in camp and in the end they improve enough so we can cut his sorry ass. I prefer not to be forced to knowingly root for *******s.

[k-oneputt]

Then root for 6-10 every year.

The Bils Super Bowl teams were not choir boys.

[GingerP]

A college football player in a fight at a party. NNNOOOO !!!! I don't believe it. Big freaking deal.

I wasn't making a judgment, merely pointing out that stating "he hasn't broken any laws" is factually incorrect.

[swiper]

Is is really though? We didn't have anywhere near the media back then that we have now. Who knows what guys did that we never heard about.
Take any group of 1700 + people and your'e going to have a fair share of aholes. I'd like to see % comparisons between the league and the general public.

Ken Stabler, Bert Jones, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Ferguson were men. EJ Manuel is an overly fawned over pussy.

Mike Montler, Joe D., Reggie McKenzie were men. Chris Williams is fragile. Incognito has to make a place for himself by being an *******.

I was ok with Lyle Alzado and Bill Romanowski. I understand that. Not all these thugs. Too numerous to count. Far more than a small percentage as you suggest. So I disagree with you.

[stuckincincy]

Blurb from Nfl.com today:

Pegula: Bills 'convinced' Incognito ready for NFL return
By Kevin Patra Around the NFL writer Published: Feb. 9, 2015 at 12:22 p.m. Updated: Feb. 9, 2015 at 01:27 p.m

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000469474/article/pegula-bills-convinced-incognito-ready-for-nfl-return

Another blurb:

Richie Incognito's Bills signing has broad implications for NFL
By Judy Battista NFL Media reporter Published: Feb. 9, 2015 at 01:07 p.m. Updated: Feb. 9, 2015 at 02:14 p.m.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000469480/article/richie-incognitos-bills-signing-has-broad-implications-for-nfl

[swiper]

Now that they signed Incognito, maybe they can sign Bruce Jenner to even things out a little.

[justasportsfan]

Blurb from Nfl.com today:

Pegula: Bills 'convinced' Incognito ready for NFL return
By Kevin Patra Around the NFL writer Published: Feb. 9, 2015 at 12:22 p.m. Updated: Feb. 9, 2015 at 01:27 p.m

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000469474/article/pegula-bills-convinced-incognito-ready-for-nfl-return

Another blurb:

Richie Incognito's Bills signing has broad implications for NFL
By Judy Battista NFL Media reporter Published: Feb. 9, 2015 at 01:07 p.m. Updated: Feb. 9, 2015 at 02:14 p.m.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000469480/article/richie-incognitos-bills-signing-has-broad-implications-for-nfl

there you go. The pEgulas spoke to Incognito already.

I wonder when they will be talking to Rice as well. Then they will see if Adrian Peterson is ready as well .


Ground and pound baby

[better days]

Actually he has broken laws. He was found guilty of misdemeanor assault in college for a cold-cocking a guy at a party, and misdemeanor attempted possession of drug paraphernalia in Arizona (where he lives).

I'm pretty sure you don't have to list misdemeanors when talking about a criminal record.

They ask, have you ever been convicted of a FELONY?

[Bill Cody]

Then root for 6-10 every year.



Get serious. Incognito is not some kind of difference maker. He's an aging average player that won't make much of a difference either way. It's a coin flip whether he makes the final roster. Hope he doesn't.

[swiper]

Get serious. Incognito is not some kind of difference maker. He's an aging average player that won't make much of a difference either way. It's a coin flip whether he makes the final roster. Hope he doesn't.

I agree. But you have to remember that Rex Ryan is the new sheriff in town. He's famous for surrounding himself with yes-men, no matter whether they are good players or not. That's what separates Bill Belichick from him.

[swiper]

About to be on PTI on ESPN.

[Generalissimus Gibby]

1) Its a need position
2) Incognito is a low cost --in NFL money -- solution
3) When he doesn't have his head buried deep up his buttocks he is actually pretty good at what he does

Verdict: Overall good signing. Hopefully this is not the only guy we bring in this off season as I would honestly like him to be a Glenn Parker style backup who can play multiple positions, provide depth, and allow us to rotate our OL.

[k-oneputt]

Get serious. Incognito is not some kind of difference maker. He's an aging average player that won't make much of a difference either way. It's a coin flip whether he makes the final roster. Hope he doesn't.

Where did I say he was a difference maker ? I would call him an upgrade over the current garbage we have, even after sitting out a season.
What is important is what seems to be the new philosophy at OBD. I would think 15 yrs is long enough of all the fine young men of character from their ****ty little schools that can't play a lick.
Case in point; Pears. That pile of puss actually started the whole season.

[DraftBoy]

Not really. It's how I view the game of football, it has nothing to do with life. I can differentiate between the two.

As can I, but I can also tell the difference about issues that transcend that divide.



What am I a role model now? If people are looking to me for guidance, they have much bigger problems than how they're going to view NFL players.

No, you are not, but those players are whether we like it or not.

[DraftBoy]

AS I have said before, Incognito has not broken any laws. He is not a criminal that needs a second chance or more.

I think it is good to have an AHOLE on the team to deal with the AHOLES/CHEAP SHOT ARTISTS like Wilfork on other teams.

And as I've told you, if that's the only reason you can come up with to defend him then it's just sad.

Incognito is a cheap shot artist himself.

[Novacane]

Get serious. Incognito is not some kind of difference maker. He's an aging average player that won't make much of a difference either way. It's a coin flip whether he makes the final roster. Hope he doesn't.


I hope he does. Just to piss off the ones *****ing about his singing!

[DraftBoy]

I hope he does. Just to piss off the ones *****ing about his singing!

Let me get this straight...you hope that a guy makes this team regardless of his ability to play the game of football just to irritate people? That should win us some games.

[Novacane]

I hope he makes the team even if he sucks. Yeah that's exactly what I said drama queen :rolleyes:

[Bill Cody]

Where did I say he was a difference maker ? I would call him an upgrade over the current garbage we have, even after sitting out a season.
What is important is what seems to be the new philosophy at OBD. I would think 15 yrs is long enough of all the fine young men of character from their ****ty little schools that can't play a lick.
Case in point; Pears. That pile of puss actually started the whole season.

i'm not buying it. incognito is a leader... in a bad way. NE is the model on OL, versatile players with brains. Not psychos.

[k-oneputt]

i'm not buying it. incognito is a leader... in a bad way. NE is the model on OL, versatile players with brains. Not psychos.

That's called Brady.

[DraftBoy]

I hope he makes the team even if he sucks. Yeah that's exactly what I said drama queen :rolleyes:

Well one would assume that's why a question was asked of you, no?

Just how far are you willing to go?

[Mace]

He's still a guard heading to 32, who hasn't played for 18 months, was blown off by 3 teams gave him tryouts last season (with the same 'comes cheap, he's reformed' logo), and he's just not on his second chance, he's on his 6th, or maybe 8th depending on which stories you believe. They did the anger management thing with him in college, and that was a long time ago now.

If he's ok, great, but why would you think so ? And you still stick him with young developing lineman via a coach who doesn't know any better and didn't really prove it last stop, but seems to be manufacturing the same circus, and newbie owners who think themselves fine judges of character but have an NHL team proving they haven't proven it, and why don't they just draft a mean run blocking guard for tomorrow who has a better philosophy, or sign one via free agency (Iupati).

This looks to me like classic Rexfest, which has only barely even started.

[better days]

And as I've told you, if that's the only reason you can come up with to defend him then it's just sad.

Incognito is a cheap shot artist himself.

Fight fire with fire.

You take a cheap shot at us, we will take two at you.

That is what I want from this team.

[DraftBoy]

Fight fire with fire.

You take a cheap shot at us, we will take two at you.

That is what I want from this team.

Well that's a difference then between you and I. I could care less about taking cheap shots. The only thing that matters is winning.

[Joe Fo Sho]

No, you are not, but those players are whether we like it or not.

That's a bigger problem that speaks of how poor parenting is in this country, but I'm not getting into that here.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Well that's a difference then between you and I. I could care less about taking cheap shots. The only thing that matters is winning.

Seems to me you're arguing against that. Clearly character matters to you as well.

[better days]

Well that's a difference then between you and I. I could care less about taking cheap shots. The only thing that matters is winning.

And you are not going to win when the other team takes cheap shots at you & you let them get away with it.

And I might add, who are you with that avatar to judge Incognito or anyone else?

[DraftBoy]

That's a bigger problem that speaks of how poor parenting is in this country, but I'm not getting into that here.

Well there is no doubt about that, but you're right that is a discussion for an entirely different venue and goes far beyond just parenting.

- - - Updated - - -


Seems to me you're arguing against that. Clearly character matters to you as well.

That's making an assumption that Incognito makes us better now, which I'm not willing to agree that he does.

[DraftBoy]

And you are not going to win when the other team takes cheap shots at you & you let them get away with it.

And I might add, who are you with that avatar to judge Incognito or anyone else?

You most certainly can.

[better days]

You most certainly can.

Yeah, like the Bills have won in the past 15 years.

[Joe Fo Sho]

That's making an assumption that Incognito makes us better now, which I'm not willing to agree that he does.

Well that's completely unknown right now, but I'm OK with them giving him a shot. With his history, I'm sure they didn't give him much, if any, guaranteed money. If he doesn't make us better, they can cut him without any repercussions.

[Bill Cody]

That's called Brady.

Not just Brady. The OL too. NE only dresses 7 OL guys each week. Guys can play multiple positions. They have a 1st rounder, a 2nd, a 4th and 2 UFA's in the starting lineup and a couple late rounders on the bench. You don't need to sign a guy with clear cut mental issues on the OL to win. It's ridiculous. "It's a position of need". So what?

[DraftBoy]

Yeah, like the Bills have won in the past 15 years.

Like they've had anywhere near the talent on the roster to do so.

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Well that's completely unknown right now, but I'm OK with them giving him a shot. With his history, I'm sure they didn't give him much, if any, guaranteed money. If he doesn't make us better, they can cut him without any repercussions.

By that logic they could sign almost any player with any history from any level of football and say "well if he doesn't make us better we can just cut him easily".

[Joe Fo Sho]

By that logic they could sign almost any player with any history from any level of football and say "well if he doesn't make us better we can just cut him easily".

Right, because me saying that a player that has been out of the league for a year and a half is an unknown is the same as me being alright with the Bills signing a pee wee league player. Don't be ridiculous.

This is the offseason, there are going to be players that are cut from the team during OTAs/preseason. I don't mind if we cut this one player in this unique situation if he doesn't help our team get better.

[better days]

Like they've had anywhere near the talent on the roster to do so.

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By that logic they could sign almost any player with any history from any level of football and say "well if he doesn't make us better we can just cut him easily".

That is the point. You can not field a team full of choirboys in the NFL.

It is well known choir boys spend too much time at choir practice to devote enough time to football to become good football players.

[DraftBoy]

That is the point. You can not field a team full of choirboys in the NFL.

It is well known choir boys spend too much time at choir practice to devote enough time to football to become good football players.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

[better days]

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

You acting as if you care about other peoples feelings & sensibilities makes no sense at all while displaying that blasphemous avatar of yours.

[DraftBoy]

You acting as if you care about other peoples feelings & sensibilities makes no sense at all while displaying that blasphemous avatar of yours.

Well fortunately for me I can withstand your condemnation of my avatar and continue on with my very happy life.

For the most part we don't judge people on the basis of what they put in an avatar or write on a message board. However, coming from you it's hardly surprising.

[better days]

Well fortunately for me I can withstand your condemnation of my avatar and continue on with my very happy life.

For the most part we don't judge people on the basis of what they put in an avatar or write on a message board. However, coming from you it's hardly surprising.

You are such a HYPOCRITE.

Judging Incognito as if you care about other peoples feelings that he hurt.

You have PROVEN you have no respect for other people or their feelings with that avatar.

You have no right to judge anyone.

[DraftBoy]

You are such a HYPOCRITE.

Judging Incognito as if you care about other peoples feelings that he hurt.

You have PROVEN you have no respect for other people or their feelings with that avatar.

You have no right to judge anyone.

Well you have a right to your opinion, but again fortunately for me your rush to judgement and condemnation means very little. You don't like the fact that anybody is willing to stand against this move of the grounds that Incognito does not deserve another chance because of what he did. You don't like the fact that despite all the crap you've thrown against the wall and the names you've called people you have absolutely no defense for why you support his actions other than "it wasn't illegal". All of this clearly frustrates you so much that you've now resorted to a childish behavior of calling other posters names.

You can call me a hypocrite all you want, use whatever twisted logic you need to help you try and justify why what Incognito did as ok.

[k-oneputt]

DB, did you get picked on as a kid in the schoolyard ?

[stuckincincy]

Well you have a right to your opinion, but again fortunately for me your rush to judgement and condemnation means very little. You don't like the fact that anybody is willing to stand against this move of the grounds that Incognito does not deserve another chance because of what he did. You don't like the fact that despite all the crap you've thrown against the wall and the names you've called people you have absolutely no defense for why you support his actions other than "it wasn't illegal". All of this clearly frustrates you so much that you've now resorted to a childish behavior of calling other posters names.

You can call me a hypocrite all you want, use whatever twisted logic you need to help you try and justify why what Incognito did as ok.

DB, I agree with your stance on Incognito.

Sadly, as the downward spiral of society continues apace, those who don't buy into the ethos "the end justifies the means" come under attack. Would that it was just limited to something as small as football...

[better days]

Well you have a right to your opinion, but again fortunately for me your rush to judgement and condemnation means very little. You don't like the fact that anybody is willing to stand against this move of the grounds that Incognito does not deserve another chance because of what he did. You don't like the fact that despite all the crap you've thrown against the wall and the names you've called people you have absolutely no defense for why you support his actions other than "it wasn't illegal". All of this clearly frustrates you so much that you've now resorted to a childish behavior of calling other posters names.

You can call me a hypocrite all you want, use whatever twisted logic you need to help you try and justify why what Incognito did as ok.

Everyone has a right to their opinion, but as I said you are a HYPOCRITE.

You don't care about other peoples feelings anymore than Incognito does, You & Incognito are two peas in a pod in that respect.

[better days]

DB, I agree with your stance on Incognito.

Sadly, as the downward spiral of society continues apace, those who don't buy into the ethos "the end justifies the means" come under attack. Would that it was just limited to something as small as football...

It is a sign of the downward spiral of society when a blasphemous avatar that is offensive to all Christians is permitted to be posted on this board. yet Nativity scenes are not allowed at Christmas time.

And the fact draftboy has that avatar is proof he has no respect for other people nor their feelings.

DraftBoy is a HYPOCRITE.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And the fact draftboy has that avatar is proof he has no respect for other people nor their feelings.

His avatar proves nothing about him.

[better days]

His avatar proves nothing about him.

Of course it does.

I told him a long time ago that his avatar offended me & others have said the same. I asked him to remove it.

DraftBoy has refused to remove that avatar which is proof he has no regard for other people or their feelings.

The fact DraftBoy acts all butt hurt about Incognito bullying other people & hurting their feelings is proof DraftBoy is a HYPOCRITE.

[stuckincincy]

It is a sign of the downward spiral of society when a blasphemous avatar that is offensive to all Christians is permitted to be posted on this board. yet Nativity scenes are not allowed at Christmas time.

And the fact draftboy has that avatar is proof he has no respect for other people nor their feelings.

DraftBoy is a HYPOCRITE.

I am quite Christian. If you are too, then you understand that the central core of Christianity is forgiveness of sin, and grace. An avatar may be disturbing - many, many other things are.

[better days]

I am quite Christian. If you are too, then you understand that the central core of Christianity is forgiveness of sin, and grace. An avatar may be disturbing - many, many other things are.

What is your point?

My point is that DraftBoy is a HYPOCRITE when he acts all butt hurt about Incognito.

And while I am a Christian, I guess I am not a good Christian.

My thinking is more in line with Jewish thinking, an eye for an eye.

[Bill Cody]

It is a sign of the downward spiral of society when a blasphemous avatar that is offensive to all Christians is permitted to be posted on this board. yet Nativity scenes are not allowed at Christmas time.

And the fact draftboy has that avatar is proof he has no respect for other people nor their feelings.

DraftBoy is a HYPOCRITE.

oh please. Blasphemous? Why? I thought carrying an AK 47 was as American as apple pie and we all should be packing heat. Maybe Jesus would carry if he lived in today's world. Not sure what the big deal is. "Blasphemy" is such an outdated term. It basically means I can believe what I want and I get to control what others say and if they say/do something I don't like I get to punish/kill them in response. That's the take of these extremist Muslim kooks including what happened in Paris. Um no you don't. You don't like his avatar? Get over it. This is America, people have free speech. I wouldn't personally write those ridiculous cartoons that Charlie magazine prints but I'm sure the cartoonists that write them are probably fine people and nonviolent even if they "blaspheme the prophet". If Jesus judges us pretty sure he's not going to care one bit about Draft Boy's avatar. You need to lighten up man. Having an odd avatar still allows Draft Boy to have a take on things and it's not hypocritical unless you're one of those really easy to offend types.

[stuckincincy]

oh please. Blasphemous? Why? I thought carrying an AK 47 was as American as apple pie and we all should be packing heat. Maybe Jesus would carry if he lived in today's world. Not sure what the big deal is. "Blasphemy" is such an outdated term. It basically means I can believe what I want and I get to control what others say and if they say/do something I don't like I get to punish/kill them in response. That's the take of these extremist Muslim kooks including what happened in Paris. Um no you don't. You don't like his avatar? Get over it. This is America, people have free speech. I wouldn't personally write those ridiculous cartoons that Charlie magazine prints but I'm sure the cartoonists that write them are probably fine people and nonviolent even if they "blaspheme the prophet". If Jesus judges us pretty sure he's not going to care one bit about Draft Boy's avatar. You need to lighten up man. Having an odd avatar still allows Draft Boy to have a take on things and it's not hypocritical unless you're one of those really easy to offend types.

Make your point with less vitriol.

[BleedinGreenNC]

Its a forum, if the mods do not think his avatar is offensive then im good with it. Its people like you betterdays, that complain about anything and everything. You are whats wrong with society now, people have to be PC all the time.

[Bill Cody]

Make your point with less vitriol.

lol

[DraftBoy]

DB, did you get picked on as a kid in the schoolyard ?

Not a once.

[better days]

oh please. Blasphemous? Why? I thought carrying an AK 47 was as American as apple pie and we all should be packing heat. Maybe Jesus would carry if he lived in today's world. Not sure what the big deal is. "Blasphemy" is such an outdated term. It basically means I can believe what I want and I get to control what others say and if they say/do something I don't like I get to punish/kill them in response. That's the take of these extremist Muslim kooks including what happened in Paris. Um no you don't. You don't like his avatar? Get over it. This is America, people have free speech. I wouldn't personally write those ridiculous cartoons that Charlie magazine prints but I'm sure the cartoonists that write them are probably fine people and nonviolent even if they "blaspheme the prophet". If Jesus judges us pretty sure he's not going to care one bit about Draft Boy's avatar. You need to lighten up man. Having an odd avatar still allows Draft Boy to have a take on things and it's not hypocritical unless you're one of those really easy to offend types.

Yes everyone has a right to free speech, INCLUDING Incognito.

Incognito is FREE to say whatever he wants to Martin or anyone else. He has not broken any laws.

Why should DraftBoy be allowed to deny Incognito his fee speech when he wants his own free speech?

And my point is DraftBoy is ACTING like one of those really easy to offend types while he does not care if he offends others, which makes him a HYPOCRITE.

[BleedinGreenNC]

Yes everyone has a right to free speech, INCLUDING Incognito.

Incognito is FREE to say whatever he wants to Martin or anyone else. He has not broken any laws.

Why should DraftBoy be allowed to deny Incognito his fee speech when he wants his own free speech?

And my point is DraftBoy is ACTING like one of those really easy to offend types while he does not care if he offends others, which makes him a HYPOCRITE.

Its not illegal to speak your mind, however, that doesn't mean there aren't consequences to what you say. Ryan and Incognito on the same team? That is going to be a great storyline this season, Rex lets his players do what they want and adding Richie just adds fuel to the fire!! I quote Bart Scott, "CANT WAIT"!!!

[DraftBoy]

Yes everyone has a right to free speech, INCLUDING Incognito.

Incognito is FREE to say whatever he wants to Martin or anyone else. He has not broken any laws.

Why should DraftBoy be allowed to deny Incognito his fee speech when he wants his own free speech?

And my point is DraftBoy is ACTING like one of those really easy to offend types while he does not care if he offends others, which makes him a HYPOCRITE.

Nobody has said Incognito can't say what he said, and as you have so astutely pointed out i'ts not illegal.

However, the freedom of speech or to be ignorant does not mean you are free from the consequences of such.

I can assure you that if I had the power to deny anybody speech I wouldn't start with Incognito.

Also the freedom to speech is a freedom from the government infringing upon it. Not a private company or even a person taking issue with and/or acting upon it. That's not PC, that's just a basic understanding of what the Bill of Rights says.

[better days]

Its a forum, if the mods do not think his avatar is offensive then im good with it. Its people like you betterdays, that complain about anything and everything. You are whats wrong with society now, people have to be PC all the time.

Aside from DraftBoys avatar, what else have I complained about?

And yes, I realize DraftBoy has a right to have that avatar. But if he REALLY CARED about other peoples feelings like he ACTS he does, he would remove it.

My point is DraftBoy ACTS like he CARES about other peoples feelings yet he wants to crucify Incognito because Incognito has used his right of free speech in addressing Martin & others, when the truth is DraftBoy does not give a damn about other

peoples feelings himself. That makes DraftBoy a HYPOCRITE.

[Bill Cody]

Yes everyone has a right to free speech, INCLUDING Incognito.

Incognito is FREE to say whatever he wants to Martin or anyone else. He has not broken any laws.

Why should DraftBoy be allowed to deny Incognito his fee speech when he wants his own free speech?

And my point is DraftBoy is ACTING like one of those really easy to offend types while he does not care if he offends others, which makes him a HYPOCRITE.

There is a very good reason why Miami cut Incognito. There is a reason no one else has signed him before now. Speaking your mind is a right but harassing teammates and coaches is not really all that helpful to winning football games and I'm pretty sure that's what this thread is about. I see Incognito as a net negative. I think he has every right to continue his career. Just prefer it not be on my team, same take as I had with Mike Vick. And equating an avatar in any way shape or form a guy who sent literally thousands of hateful emails and texts to his own f'n teammate is just flat out STUPID. The two things have NOTHING in common (I used caps because I know you like that).

[better days]

Nobody has said Incognito can't say what he said, and as you have so astutely pointed out i'ts not illegal.

However, the freedom of speech or to be ignorant does not mean you are free from the consequences of such.

I can assure you that if I had the power to deny anybody speech I wouldn't start with Incognito.

Also the freedom to speech is a freedom from the government infringing upon it. Not a private company or even a person taking issue with and/or acting upon it. That's not PC, that's just a basic understanding of what the Bill of Rights says.

Well, the Bills & their owners have said Incognito IS a Buffalo Bill.

Which is their right to do. Deal with that just as Christians have to deal with your avatar.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I hope he does. Just to piss off the ones *****ing about his singing!

Who's *****ing about his singing? Have you heard him belt out "My Blue Heaven"? It's magical.

[better days]

There is a very good reason why Miami cut Incognito. There is a reason no one else has signed him before now. Speaking your mind is a right but harassing teammates and coaches is not really all that helpful to winning football games and I'm pretty sure that's what this thread is about. I see Incognito as a net negative. I think he has every right to continue his career. Just prefer it not be on my team, same take as I had with Mike Vick. And equating an avatar in any way shape or form a guy who sent literally thousands of hateful emails and texts to his own f'n teammate is just flat out STUPID. The two things have NOTHING in common (I used caps because I know you like that).

The truth is Incognito bullied Martin in an attempt to get him to play better. And Incognito was cut because the PC police made a stink.

And other teams were AFRAID to sign Incognito for the same reason, the PC police.

Incognito was a Team leader on the Fins and he was trying to get a teammate who was playing poorly to play better to help the team win.

And Martin sent as many hateful emails to Incognioto as were sent to him by Incognito.

[stuckincincy]

Well, the Bills & their owners have said Incognito IS a Buffalo Bill.

Which is their right to do. Deal with that just as Christians have to deal with your avatar.

Be careful with your back-tracking and on-the-fly dissembling. You are liable to fall and crack your head.

[better days]

Be careful with your back-tracking and on-the-fly dissembling. You are liable to fall and crack your head.

What the Hell are you talking about?

I have not backtracked about Incognito.

[Bill Cody]

The truth is Incognito bullied Martin in an attempt to get him to play better. And Incognito was cut because the PC police made a stink.

And other teams were AFRAID to sign Incognito for the same reason, the PC police.

Incognito was a Team leader on the Fins and he was trying to get a teammate who was playing poorly to play better to help the team win.

And Martin sent as many hateful emails to Incognioto as were sent to him by Incognito.

Miami SUCKED. He led them them to FAILURE. That kind of "encouragement" didn't work then and it won't work now. Hopefully Incognito comes here and keeps trap and his electronic devices to himself and focuses on his own mediocre game. Case closed.

[BleedinGreenNC]

Well, the Bills & their owners have said Incognito IS a Buffalo Bill.

Which is their right to do. Deal with that just as Christians have to deal with your avatar.

The obsession you have with DB is almost as bad as the one you have with Rex.

[better days]

The obsession you have with DB is almost as bad as the one you have with Rex.

Two way street, just as it was between Incognito & Martin.

[BleedinGreenNC]

Two way street, just as it was between Incognito & Martin.

Incognito is a dirty player, and he has a big mouth just like Rex. Cant get out of their own way.

[gebobs]

Sorry if already posted.

Incognito: This is my last chance and I want to prove I'm not a racist jerk (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25065860/incognito-this-is-my-last-chance-and-i-want-to-prove-im-not-a-racist-jerk)

"I told [the Bills' organization] what I had learned from the whole situation," Incognito wrote in a text to NFL.com's Jeff Darlington. "That I needed to respect those around me more and that I needed to realize I may find things funny that other find offensive. This whole learning process was about becoming self-aware. About becoming a better person/teammate/leader.

"We mutually expressed that this would be my last chance and we should look at it as a positive," he continued. "Take the opportunity to bring attention to a sensitive subject while proving to people that I'm not a racist jerk. We talked about possible ways to turn this situation around and ways we can impact the community. We had a good talk for about an hour. They met separately. They then came back and said they would like me to be part of the organization."

[Mr. Miyagi]

Yes everyone has a right to free speech, INCLUDING Incognito.

Incognito is FREE to say whatever he wants to Martin or anyone else. He has not broken any laws.

Why should DraftBoy be allowed to deny Incognito his fee speech when he wants his own free speech?

And my point is DraftBoy is ACTING like one of those really easy to offend types while he does not care if he offends others, which makes him a HYPOCRITE.
People always misinterpret the free speech thing. It's so frustrating.

Did they put Incognito in prison? No. The first amendment does not apply to corporate policies, nor does it give you the right to create a hostile workplace environment for others. Private organizations have every right to terminate his employment based on his unacceptable behavior.

You have the right to free speech, go tell your boss he's a ****** a-hole and his daughter is a fugly slut. You won't go to prison so good luck with that.

[better days]

Incognito is a dirty player, and he has a big mouth just like Rex. Cant get out of their own way.

Well, like I said, I am happy to have the two of them to deal with the Pats* who have Belicheat & Wilfork.

I would love to see Incognito pull something dirty on Wilfork who is also a dirty player.

[BleedinGreenNC]

Well, like I said, I am happy to have the two of them to deal with the Pats* who have Belicheat & Wilfork.

I would love to see Incognito pull something dirty on Wilfork who is also a dirty player.

Deal with the SB champion Pats? What makes you so sure they are going to "deal" with the Pats? Rex lets his hatred of the Pats play into their hands.

[better days]

People always misinterpret the free speech thing. It's so frustrating.

Did they put Incognito in prison? No. The first amendment does not apply to corporate policies, nor does it give you the right to create a hostile workplace environment for others. Private organizations have every right to terminate his employment based on his unacceptable behavior.

You have the right to free speech, go tell your boss he's a ****** a-hole and his daughter is a fugly slut. You won't go to prison so good luck with that.

Well, Incognito paid the price for that.

The point is how big a price should he pay?

He should not be allowed to ever play in the NFL again because he was a BULLY?

As I said from the start, other players have done MUCH WORSE things than Incognito has, with much less ramification.

[better days]

Sorry if already posted.

Incognito: This is my last chance and I want to prove I'm not a racist jerk (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25065860/incognito-this-is-my-last-chance-and-i-want-to-prove-im-not-a-racist-jerk)

"I told [the Bills' organization] what I had learned from the whole situation," Incognito wrote in a text to NFL.com's Jeff Darlington. "That I needed to respect those around me more and that I needed to realize I may find things funny that other find offensive. This whole learning process was about becoming self-aware. About becoming a better person/teammate/leader.

"We mutually expressed that this would be my last chance and we should look at it as a positive," he continued. "Take the opportunity to bring attention to a sensitive subject while proving to people that I'm not a racist jerk. We talked about possible ways to turn this situation around and ways we can impact the community. We had a good talk for about an hour. They met separately. They then came back and said they would like me to be part of the organization."

I think it would be a great idea for Incognito to speak to school kids about bullying.

I heard someone on the radio the other day that said Incognito was bullied as a kid.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Well, Incognito paid the price for that.

The point is how big a price should he pay?

He should not be allowed to ever play in the NFL again because he was a BULLY?

As I said from the start, other players have done MUCH WORSE things than Incognito has, with much less ramification.
I don't disagree. Personally I like the signing. I think what he did wasn't nice and he could even be a bigot but this is a tough man's league. We want bad asses on our team. Sissies need not apply.

Just don't throw that half-assed free speech excuse out on me. I hate that crap.

[better days]

I don't disagree. Personally I like the signing. I think what he did wasn't nice and he could even be a bigot but this is a tough man's league. We want bad asses on our team. Sissies need not apply.

Just don't throw that half-assed free speech excuse out on me. I hate that crap.

The free speech was in response to someone else that pulled it out & used that card.

[Herd bull]

My opinion would have a lot of stars out of the NFL.

There was a time when men played in the NFL. Now its a league of thugs.
The NFL in the 1969's and 1970's was a lot tougher then than it is now. Many of the things that are illegal now were standard practice back then, head slap, etc. Tougher players, Dobler, Butkus and a linebacker from the Colts named Mike Curtiss just for starters. And there were many more. I often talk about how sissified the game has become. Not to mention the old Oakland Raiders who always led the league in penalties and took pride in it.