Clay for Chandler....bad deal.

[HHURRICANE]

Not to rain on everyone's parade here.....

Love the Hughes signing, ok with McCoy, and even Harvin. However it looks like Whaley got his over inflated, Tom Donohoe ego, sucked into the Clay drama. Chandler is bigger, arguably just as productive, with less speed. Chandler sucked so much that the Pats came in and snatched him up. Clay was so good his numbers look the same as Chandlers.

This contract makes it look like we got Jerry Hughes on the cheap and I think it creates cap issues, issues with players on this team, etc.

We tried to sign an offensive lineman and it didn't work out. I'm ok with that. I'm not ok with the money burning a hole in your pocket. Glad the team has owners that will spend money but as Schneider proved in DC all the spending in the world doesn't buy you a championship.

This deal is dumb on every level.

[CoolBreeze]

Is that the same Schneider that was on "One day at a Time"? I thought Snyder owned the Redskins.

[HHURRICANE]

Is that the same Schneider that was on "One day at a Time"? I thought Snyder owned the Redskins.

Hahhahahahahahahaha!!!!

Sorry Snyder.

Hate auto correct.

[CoolBreeze]

LOL. I'd take Valerie Bertinelli tho

[Pinkerton Security]

Dumb on every level is a gross overstatement. Chandler was a crappy blocker, and had a knack for dropping easy catches.

My real beef with the Clay contract offer is the money - how the heck did we just make this guy the 4th highest paid TE in the league? I dont think we'll regret signing Clay by any means, but it seems overpriced.

[Mahdi]

Not to rain on everyone's parade here.....

Love the Hughes signing, ok with McCoy, and even Harvin. However it looks like Whaley got his over inflated, Tom Donohoe ego, sucked into the Clay drama. Chandler is bigger, arguably just as productive, with less speed. Chandler sucked so much that the Pats came in and snatched him up. Clay was so good his numbers look the same as Chandlers.

This contract makes it look like we got Jerry Hughes on the cheap and I think it creates cap issues, issues with players on this team, etc.

We tried to sign an offensive lineman and it didn't work out. I'm ok with that. I'm not ok with the money burning a hole in your pocket. Glad the team has owners that will spend money but as Schneider proved in DC all the spending in the world doesn't buy you a championship.

This deal is dumb on every level.

That's because you are comparing apples to apples.

Clay is an apple Chandler is an orange.

They have completely different games and serve an offense in a completely different way.

[Dr. Lecter]

Meh. I liked Chandler. Probably more than most. He was a pretty good receiver and ran decent routes. His rep for dropping passes is way over stated too.

But he was a poor blocker and was not athletic or fast. Clay is a better blocker and more of a receiving threat.

That being said, I would probably take Chandler at 2.5 million and a better guard or RT (if there is one out there!) than Clay at 7 per. And a hit of 16 million for him next year is bad since they will be paying Dareus, Gilmore, Bradham and Glenn new deals next year.

But let's not pretend they are the same guy or have the same numbers. That's simply not true

[Mr. Miyagi]

Everybody suddenly is a goddamn GM of the year, pretending to know anything about managing the cap. No we don't know crap about that. Stop your *****ing already.

[GreedoII]

Who cares about the money...stop whining about it. Chandler should have beem gone 3 yrs ago....

[Mr. Miyagi]

Oakland saved up 68 million in cap room. Would you rather be them?

[Woodman]

It'll only hurt when I smile after we beat the Pats.

So far 1 RB, 1 FB, 1WR, 1 OG, 2 QB, Resigning Hughes and maybe 1 TE .... so I'll hold the judgments until the results are in.

So what's next?

A message is being sent.

[Strongman]

Whaley put the Bills in a tough spot by releasing Chandler before signing Clay. The rest of the available TEs are a scrap heap. In order to have a decent TE, he pretty much had to make him an offer he's are confident the Fins can't match.

I'n order to justify Clay's contract, I hope he's at least 2x as productive as Chandler was.

[Uncle Jesse]

Chandler couldn't block anyone. Clay is excellent at that, and just as, if not more productive as a receiver. He's no doubt an upgrade from a pure roster standpoint.

[ParanoidAndroid]

He's more versatile, not much better of a blocker, but better, he's way faster and gets yards-after-catch. He can get by CB's and safeties and surely creates a match-up problem for LB's. Chandler was all size and decent hands. Clay hasn't hit his ceiling yet. Of course there will be those who say "I told you so" after Chandler has a good year with Tom Brady throwing him the ball.

[better days]

He's more versatile, not much better of a blocker, but better, he's way faster and gets yards-after-catch. He can get by CB's and safeties and surely creates a match-up problem for LB's. Chandler was all size and decent hands. Clay hasn't hit his ceiling yet. Of course there will be those who say "I told you so" after Chandler has a good year with Tom Brady throwing him the ball.

Clay is a MUCH BETTER blocker than Chandler.

And Clay is much harder to tackle than Chandler.

With his size, Chandler makes a nice target to throw the ball to, I will give him that.

But for all his size, you would think Chandler would be a better blocker & harder to tackle than he is.

[casdhf]

Clay fits the Delanie Walker role from SF, I think. He was much cheaper though before he bolted for the Titans.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

To say Chandler is just as productive as Clay is just .... I don't need to go there.

If Clay didn't have a transition tag, he would have many teams lined up. As is, Bills, Browns and Miami wanted him.

Clay is just entering his prime years. A couple years ago when Chandler was 27 and on the market, no one wanted him other than the Bills who wind up resigning him.

Clay is a top level TE in this league, something the Bills don't have for a number of years (still may not have if Miami matches). A more legit question is why can't the Bills draft a TE that can develop into that level? Graham, Clay, Cameron were all 4th round picks. What the Bills have to show for their 4th picks the last decade, let alone a TE?

[OpIv37]

Meh. I liked Chandler. Probably more than most. He was a pretty good receiver and ran decent routes. His rep for dropping passes is way over stated too.

But he was a poor blocker and was not athletic or fast. Clay is a better blocker and more of a receiving threat.

That being said, I would probably take Chandler at 2.5 million and a better guard or RT (if there is one out there!) than Clay at 7 per. And a hit of 16 million for him next year is bad since they will be paying Dareus, Gilmore, Bradham and Glenn new deals next year.

But let's not pretend they are the same guy or have the same numbers. That's simply not true

Chandler was the epitome of the Krusty Brand Seal of Approval mentality this team had under Ralph: he's not just good, he's good enough! They take a guy who's average or slightly below average, pay him an average salary and just leave him there for 4-5 years, pretending the position has been properly addressed when it hasn't.

Clay is a talent upgrade over Chandler- no doubt about that. The salary concers are legit, however.

[tomz]

Here's a thought: maybe the Bills are going for speed/YAC players? Harvin, Shady, Clay all have strong skills after the catch. I think Roman's offense benefits from this particular type of player.

[better days]

Chandler was the epitome of the Krusty Brand Seal of Approval mentality this team had under Ralph: he's not just good, he's good enough! They take a guy who's average or slightly below average, pay him an average salary and just leave him there for 4-5 years, pretending the position has been properly addressed when it hasn't.

Clay is a talent upgrade over Chandler- no doubt about that. The salary concers are legit, however.

Well, you have to admit Op that after all these years of mediocrity, the Pegula's are being AGGRESSIVE to make the Bills a winner.

[justasportsfan]

Well, you have to admit Op that after all these years of mediocrity, the Pegula's are being AGGRESSIVE to make the Bills a winner.

he won't admit it. It's a positive thing. As a matter of fact, he blames the Pegulas for past moves still.

[OpIv37]

Well, you have to admit Op that after all these years of mediocrity, the Pegula's are being AGGRESSIVE to make the Bills a winner.

Aggressive? Yes. Smart? I'm not convinced.

[mightysimi]

Has anyone seen the contract details yet? From what I hear it makes use of a bigger cap number next year. There is nothing stopping from turning what is either a roster bonus or high salary to a signing bonus to spread out to what I assume are lower cap numbers in years 3-5. It does need to be scripted like this now to make it tougher for the fins to match.

I did read though that based on the contract, the Bills are basically assuming (correctly or incorrectly) that he will be productive for the entire life of the contract.

[OpIv37]

he won't admit it. It's a positive thing. As a matter of fact, he blames the Pegulas for past moves still.

How/where did I do that?

[better days]

Aggressive? Yes. Smart? I'm not convinced.

Well, I guess you would rather the Pegula's did things just like Ralph did so you could ***** about it.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Separate Clay the player from this contract.

Do I like signing Clay? Sure, I think he can be a useful receiving TE option.

Do I like this deal? Absolutely not. Clay has not shown himself to be an elite player, and I don't see how that changes here. His role in the offense should be less than it was in Miami and his QBs downgrade.

[justasportsfan]

How/where did I do that?

every time you post about how the bills tend to do things in recent posts.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Aggressive? Yes. Smart? I'm not convinced.

Nobody should be convinced at this point. These free agents haven't played a single down for us yet.

I'll admit to being cautiously optimistic. At the very least I'm excited to see the Bills showing a willingness to try.

[OpIv37]

Well, I guess you would rather the Pegula's did things just like Ralph did so you could ***** about it.

False dichotomy. What Ralph did and what the Pegulas are doing aren't the only two approaches.

You seem to think that because I didn't like what Ralph did, then I automatically have to like it when the Pegulas do something different just because it's different. Terrible logic.

[better days]

False dichotomy. What Ralph did and what the Pegulas are doing aren't the only two approaches.

You seem to think that because I didn't like what Ralph did, then I automatically have to like it when the Pegulas do something different just because it's different. Terrible logic.

Well, it is LOGICAL to ASSUME you will ***** no matter what the Bills do.

[OpIv37]

Well, it is LOGICAL to ASSUME you will ***** no matter what the Bills do.

Not true. I evaluate each move/non-move on its individual merits.

And btw, have you been paying attention to this team for the last 15 years? Fans should ***** about their moves because clearly they don't lead to wins.

[DraftBoy]

Has anyone seen the contract details yet? From what I hear it makes use of a bigger cap number next year. There is nothing stopping from turning what is either a roster bonus or high salary to a signing bonus to spread out to what I assume are lower cap numbers in years 3-5. It does need to be scripted like this now to make it tougher for the fins to match.

I did read though that based on the contract, the Bills are basically assuming (correctly or incorrectly) that he will be productive for the entire life of the contract.

People say this all the time, but you realize that this is a two way street right? The player has to agree to restructure as much as the Bills do. We can't just assume that this will get done because we don't like the number.

[justasportsfan]

False dichotomy. What Ralph did and what the Pegulas are doing aren't the only two approaches.

You seem to think that because I didn't like what Ralph did, then I automatically have to like it when the Pegulas do something different just because it's different. Terrible logic.



This very thread alone is about making a move for Clay as opposed to keeping Chandler who is a TE you don't like. Under Ralph, this move wouldn't be done no? So do not equate whats being done under the Pegulas as the same as last year or years past. You may not like it, but its not the same. I can dig recent posts of you talking about last years moves and pretty much implying gits the same thing.

Hiring Rex alone is not something Ralph has done to begin with.

[OpIv37]

This very thread alone is about making a move for Clay as opposed to keeping Chandler who is a TE you don't like. Under Ralph, this move wouldn't be done no? So do not equate whats being done under the Pegulas as the same as last year or years past. You may not like it, but its not the same. I can dig recent posts of you talking about last years moves and pretty much implying gits the same thing.

Hiring Rex alone is not something Ralph has done to begin with.

I'm not sure where this came from. I said the Pegulas were taking a different approach on most things.

[HHURRICANE]

The two points of my post is that we backed ourselves into a corner after releasing Chandler which tunred the Clay signing into a must need instead of a want. Clay better love football an awful lot because after the first two years his incentive to play drops immensely. Seocndly, Clay may be better but whether he's that much better (based on his contract 10X better) looks like a stretch at this point.

[Meathead]

chandler was a bargain imo, but the bills obviously decided he did not fit with what they planned to do. i find that hard to understand but they simply had to have what they thought was a great reason in their mind. and it wasnt to free up space for clay, that had nothing to do with it since they still dont know if they are gonna get him or not (i think they wont)

they obviously have decided they think clay is going to emerge as a consistent top ten guy at his position. they also will have weakened a division rival in the process. the question is whether they are right or not, which could go either way. seems more likely he will NOT live up to that contract than he will

seems quite risky to me but im not paid to make those calls either

[SpikedLemonade]

Well, it is LOGICAL to ASSUME you will ***** no matter what the Bills do.

3 block letter words in the same sentence -- be careful you don't blow a gasket old man.

[jpdex12]

I just heard the Packers are willing to trade us Rodgers for a pair of Kim's dirty underwear. I'm not impressed with this move at all...

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Billsmafia has a nice piece on Clay - http://billsmafia.com/2015/03/17/2015-nfl-free-agency-what-would-charles-clay-bring-to-buffalo-bills-offense/

I don't see anything highlighted there is in Chandler's wheel house.

I don't hate Chandler. That 4th and 20 completion will forever be my favorably memory of him. The only advatange Chandler has over Clay, and properly why NE signed him, is his contested catch in the middle using his height. He will be a bit player in NE. Gronk and Chandler 10 yards in from the end zone for Brady? Look for Chandler's red zone production next year.

[better days]

Not true. I evaluate each move/non-move on its individual merits.

And btw, have you been paying attention to this team for the last 15 years? Fans should ***** about their moves because clearly they don't lead to wins.

AGAIN, this is NOT the Bills of the last 15 years.

But you continue to ***** like it is.

This is the first year the Pegula's have owned the Bills you have no idea if their moves will work or not.

It is TRUE, you will ***** no matter what.

[swiper]

AGAIN, this is NOT the Bills of the last 15 years.


We heard this last year when Marrone was hired. And when Whaley was hired. And when Pettine was hired. And when Nix was hired. And when Pegula bough the Sabres and took them down.

So the "this time is different" mantra cannot be sold to most Bills fans. Show me the money.

[jpdex12]

I'll enjoy the drop by Chandler on 3rd and 3 in the flats for easy first down that causes them to lose the game against us next year. Remember this happened to us two years ago at the home game Brady won in the final minute with a field goal after Chandler couldn't convert for us?

[Dr. Lecter]

I'll enjoy the drop by Chandler on 3rd and 3 in the flats for easy first down that causes them to lose the game against us next year. Remember this happened to us two years ago at the home game Brady won in the final minute with a field goal after Chandler couldn't convert for us?

Or the 24 yard drop he had against Minnesota on 4th and 20.

[Mr. Pink]

This article is back from November 2013 and Chandler wasn't Mr Stone Hands in 2014 so it should give some perspective.

http://buffalowins.com/buffalo-bills/articles-buffalo-bills/beyond-the-stats-look-past-the-few-drops-from-scott-chandler.html

Chandler wasn't as bad as some people like to say he was. He wasn't great either but he was an average NFL TE.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I'll enjoy the drop by Chandler on 3rd and 3 in the flats for easy first down that causes them to lose the game against us next year. Remember this happened to us two years ago at the home game Brady won in the final minute with a field goal after Chandler couldn't convert for us?

Remember when he converted a 4th and 20 to keep us alive against Minnesota last year?

People only seem to remember the bad plays he made, for some reason. Chandler was not great, but I think fans on this board have forgotten what bad tight end play really looks like. Robert Royal wasn't that long ago.

[Jry44]

People say this all the time, but you realize that this is a two way street right? The player has to agree to restructure as much as the Bills do. We can't just assume that this will get done because we don't like the number.

Yes... and if they don't restructure, they are either released or traded. So no, it's not a two way street. Worrying about contracts is SUCH a waste of worry.... why do fans and media obsess over this??

[jamze132]

None of us know exactly where's Buffalo's finances are. If you take that out of the equation, who would you rather have, Chandler or Clay? I'll take Clay ever time.

[Jry44]

The two points of my post is that we backed ourselves into a corner after releasing Chandler which tunred the Clay signing into a must need instead of a want. Clay better love football an awful lot because after the first two years his incentive to play drops immensely. Seocndly, Clay may be better but whether he's that much better (based on his contract 10X better) looks like a stretch at this point.

I don't think they backed themselves into a corner at all. Miami made Clay an offer before Chandler was released, so the Bills knew beforehand what they had to offer Clay. Releasing Chandler was a testament to the Bills confidence that they were getting Clay.

[Jry44]

I just heard the Packers are willing to trade us Rodgers for a pair of Kim's dirty underwear. I'm not impressed with this move at all...

Stay classy...

[Novacane]

If Miami doesn't match can't we just redo Clays contract next year and spread next years cap hit out over time?

[ghz in pittsburgh]

Yes... and if they don't restructure, they are either released or traded. So no, it's not a two way street. Worrying about contracts is SUCH a waste of worry.... why do fans and media obsess over this??

No. It just means that Chandler does not fit what they want to do

[bdutton]

Clay is a marginal upgrade over Chandler. Look at the total yards for 2013 and 2014 seasons.

2013:

<tbody id="yui_3_10_3_1_1426702454866_169">
9th (tied) Charles Clay (http://www.nfl.com/players/charlesclay/profile?id=CLA715825)
MIA (http://www.nfl.com/teams/miamidolphins/profile?team=MIA)
TE
69
759

</tbody>

<tbody id="yui_3_10_3_1_1426702454866_169">
12th: Scott Chandler (http://www.nfl.com/players/scottchandler/profile?id=CHA313999)
BUF (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF)
TE
53
655

</tbody>

2014:

<tbody id="yui_3_10_3_1_1426702595869_167">
14th
Charles Clay (http://www.nfl.com/players/charlesclay/profile?id=CLA715825)
MIA (http://www.nfl.com/teams/miamidolphins/profile?team=MIA)
TE
58
605

</tbody>

<tbody id="yui_3_10_3_1_1426702595869_167">
18th
Scott Chandler (http://www.nfl.com/players/scottchandler/profile?id=CHA313999)
BUF (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF)
TE
47
497

</tbody>

Not a huge difference there.

[jamze132]

Clay is a marginal upgrade over Chandler. Look at the total yards for 2013 and 2014 seasons.

2013:

<tbody id="yui_3_10_3_1_1426702454866_169">
9th (tied) Charles Clay (http://www.nfl.com/players/charlesclay/profile?id=CLA715825)
MIA (http://www.nfl.com/teams/miamidolphins/profile?team=MIA)
TE
69
759

</tbody>

<tbody id="yui_3_10_3_1_1426702454866_169">
12th: Scott Chandler (http://www.nfl.com/players/scottchandler/profile?id=CHA313999)
BUF (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF)
TE
53
655

</tbody>

2014:

<tbody id="yui_3_10_3_1_1426702595869_167">
14th
Charles Clay (http://www.nfl.com/players/charlesclay/profile?id=CLA715825)
MIA (http://www.nfl.com/teams/miamidolphins/profile?team=MIA)
TE
58
605

</tbody>

<tbody id="yui_3_10_3_1_1426702595869_167">
18th
Scott Chandler (http://www.nfl.com/players/scottchandler/profile?id=CHA313999)
BUF (http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/profile?team=BUF)
TE
47
497

</tbody>

Not a huge difference there.

Excluding money, who would you rather have?

[bdutton]

Excluding money, who would you rather have?

Keep chandler and draft a TE.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Excluding money, who would you rather have?

You can't exclude money from the argument though. Clay may be better than Chandler, but is he $22 millon better? I say no. If Clay was the kind of TE that could be our #1 receiver (and he isn't) and we signed him to be that (we didn't), then the contract could be justified.

[better days]

We heard this last year when Marrone was hired. And when Whaley was hired. And when Pettine was hired. And when Nix was hired. And when Pegula bough the Sabres and took them down.

So the "this time is different" mantra cannot be sold to most Bills fans. Show me the money.

Nix, Marrone & Whaley were all hired when Ralph was still alive.

Marrone was hired two years ago, not last year, Pettine was hired by Marrone at that time.

And Pegula sat back took it all in & did nothing until the end of last season.

Rex is the first big hire by Pegula.

And Pegula took down the Sabres in order to build them up.

Wait until next year, the Sabres & Bills will both surprise people like you & Op.

[Jry44]

No. It just means that Chandler does not fit what they want to do

This isn't in relation to Chandler. Just players in general.

[starrymessenger]

This article is back from November 2013 and Chandler wasn't Mr Stone Hands in 2014 so it should give some perspective.

http://buffalowins.com/buffalo-bills/articles-buffalo-bills/beyond-the-stats-look-past-the-few-drops-from-scott-chandler.html

Chandler wasn't as bad as some people like to say he was. He wasn't great either but he was an average NFL TE.
An average NFL receiving TE.

[starrymessenger]

Remember when he converted a 4th and 20 to keep us alive against Minnesota last year?

People only seem to remember the bad plays he made, for some reason. Chandler was not great, but I think fans on this board have forgotten what bad tight end play really looks like. Robert Royal wasn't that long ago.
Robert Royal could block. Catch passes - not so much.
Scott Chandler has decent pass catching ability - but he can't block and isn't great YAC.
Charles Clay can catch, block and run people over.

[better days]

You can't exclude money from the argument though. Clay may be better than Chandler, but is he $22 millon better? I say no. If Clay was the kind of TE that could be our #1 receiver (and he isn't) and we signed him to be that (we didn't), then the contract could be justified.

Clay is VERSATILE.

Chandler is NOT that.

That is the reason Rex & Poman wanted Clay over Chandler.

Rex does not want the other team to know what is happening until it is too late.

With Clay, teams don't know how Clay will be used on any given play.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Clay is VERSATILE.

Chandler is NOT that.

That is the reason Rex & Poman wanted Clay over Chandler.

Rex does not want the other team to know what is happening until it is too late.

With Clay, teams don't know how Clay will be used on any given play.

$38 million versatile?

The FA questions I always ask are, assuming the guy maintains his average level of production, would you be satisfied with that contract? And, what are the chances he falls off from his average?

To Clay I say "No" to the first, and "Small" to the second. If we're paying 7.6 million a year for a guy to catch 64 passes for 682 yards and 4-5 TDs (the average of his last two seasons), would you be satisfied with Clay's contract?

[better days]

$38 million versatile?

The FA questions I always ask are, assuming the guy maintains his average level of production, would you be satisfied with that contract? And, what are the chances he falls off from his average?

To Clay I say "No" to the first, and "Small" to the second. If we're paying 7.6 million a year for a guy to catch 64 passes for 682 yards and 4-5 TDs (the average of his last two seasons), would you be satisfied with Clay's contract?

The Fins were going to pay Clay $7.1 Mill this year.

After this year, the price would have gone UP for the Fins to keep him.

The Bills had to overpay a LITTLE to pry him out of Miami.

Yes I am happy Pegula could afford to pay Clay an extra $500,000 to get him on the Bills.

[Mr. Cynical]

Who cares about the money as long as it hasn't prevented the signing of someone else they needed. To our knowledge (which is obviously very limited), it hasn't.

So, bottom line - no one will care about the cash if he plays better than Chandler and is a *legitimate* starting TE for this offense to improve.

Disclaimer - I haven't followed Clay so I can't say one way or the other if he is worth it. But I do know that if they hadn't signed him, the options were limited at best, from what is/was in FA and what is reported to be available in the draft. So long short, I support the move, if for no other reason than Chandler wasn't anything special and the team needed a legit TE.

[starrymessenger]

Clay is VERSATILE.

Chandler is NOT that.

That is the reason Rex & Poman wanted Clay over Chandler.

Rex does not want the other team to know what is happening until it is too late.

With Clay, teams don't know how Clay will be used on any given play.

And thus makes all the great skill position players we now have that much better.
People don't realize (yet) how good this guy is. Bills and Dolphins know because it is their business to know.
If the Fins screwed up by not outright franchising him to save chump change and the Bills scoop him kudos to Pegs, Doug and Rex.
So his #s are like Chandler's? Except for TDs his numbers in 2013 and 2014 are a lot like Julius Thomas's. Thomas, also 26, just signed a 46 million dollar 5 year deal with 24 guaranteed. Nobody complaining that he was overpaid. Oh and he put up those numbers on the leagues best offence and with the leagues most accomplished passer, not with a work in progress Tannyhill. Wonder how many TDs he'll have in 2015with Bortles and the Jags offence. Probably as many as Charles Clay will have with us (6-8 is my guess).

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The Fins were going to pay Clay $7.1 Mill this year.

After this year, the price would have gone UP for the Fins to keep him.

The Bills had to overpay a LITTLE to pry him out of Miami.

Yes I am happy Pegula could afford to pay Clay an extra $500,000 to get him on the Bills.

Why did the Bills have to overpay for him at all? Why are people treating him like a superstar?

I'll restate one of the questions from that post: If he catches 64 passes for 682 yards and 4-5 TDs (the average of his last two seasons) a year, would you be satisfied with Clay's contract?

[IlluminatusUIUC]

And thus makes all the great skill position players we now have that much better.
People don't realize (yet) how good this guy is. Bills and Dolphins know because it is their business to know.
If the Fins screwed up by not outright franchising him to save chump change and the Bills scoop him kudos to Pegs, Doug and Rex.
So his #s are like Chandler's? Except for TDs his numbers in 2013 and 2014 are a lot like Julius Thomas's. Thomas, also 26, just signed a 46 million dollar 5 year deal with 24 guaranteed. Nobody complaining that he was overpaid. Oh and he put up those numbers on the leagues best offence and with the leagues most accomplished passer, not with a work in progress Tannyhill. Wonder how many TDs he'll have in 2015with Bortles and the Jags offence. Probably as many as Charles Clay will have with us (6-8 is my guess).

Plenty of people are complaining that Thomas is overpaid, but at least Thomas has played like a superstar. If he sustains his level of production in Jacksonville (24 TDs in two years), they will be extremely happy to have him. Would you be happy if Clay sustains his production here?

http://www.chatsports.com/jacksonville-jaguars/a/Is-Julius-Thomas-Overpaid-2-11230034

[better days]

Who cares about the money as long as it hasn't prevented the signing of someone else they needed. To our knowledge (which is obviously very limited), it hasn't.

So, bottom line - no one will care about the cash if he plays better than Chandler and is a *legitimate* starting TE for this offense to improve.

Disclaimer - I haven't followed Clay so I can't say one way or the other if he is worth it. But I do know that if they hadn't signed him, the options were limited at best, from what is/was in FA and what is reported to be available in the draft. So long short, I support the move, if for no other reason than Chandler wasn't anything special and the team needed a legit TE.

As I said before, Joe Buscaglia said Clay will not affect the Bills to do anything they want to do next year in regards to the cap.

And I for one am HAPPY to have an owner that can afford to overpay & has the will to do so to bring in players to help the Bills WIN.

[better days]

Why did the Bills have to overpay for him at all? Why are people treating him like a superstar?

I'll restate one of the questions from that post: If he catches 64 passes for 682 yards and 4-5 TDs (the average of his last two seasons) a year, would you be satisfied with Clay's contract?

Well, see there is this thing called a transition tag.

The Fins have the right to match any contract offer Clay received.

That is the reason the Bills had to overpay a LITTLE.

$500,000 is not all that much to get a player you want in the NFL today.

And like I said, Clay would have cost the Fins MORE MONEY than the $7.1 Mill to keep him after this year, so the Bills are really overpaying for only one year.

And again, YES I am satisfied with the contract Clay signed.

[better days]

Plenty of people are complaining that Thomas is overpaid, but at least Thomas has played like a superstar. If he sustains his level of production in Jacksonville (24 TDs in two years), they will be extremely happy to have him. Would you be happy if Clay sustains his production here?

http://www.chatsports.com/jacksonville-jaguars/a/Is-Julius-Thomas-Overpaid-2-11230034

And the difference between Jax & Buffalo is the Bills are in WIN NOW mode.

The Jags just hired Idzik & Marrone. LMAO.

[JohnnyGold]

Not to rain on everyone's parade here.....

Love the Hughes signing, ok with McCoy, and even Harvin. However it looks like Whaley got his over inflated, Tom Donohoe ego, sucked into the Clay drama. Chandler is bigger, arguably just as productive, with less speed. Chandler sucked so much that the Pats came in and snatched him up. Clay was so good his numbers look the same as Chandlers.

This contract makes it look like we got Jerry Hughes on the cheap and I think it creates cap issues, issues with players on this team, etc.

We tried to sign an offensive lineman and it didn't work out. I'm ok with that. I'm not ok with the money burning a hole in your pocket. Glad the team has owners that will spend money but as Schneider proved in DC all the spending in the world doesn't buy you a championship.

This deal is dumb on every level.

This strikes me as so far from what is actually happening.

Snyder goes for big-name, past their prime guys who look good on the back nameplates of jerseys in his stadiums pro shop.

Whaley is using a blank checkbook to fill out GLARING holes on the roster that have been there for 15+ years because the team has been operating on a shoe string budget.

You don't go a decade and a half without making the playoffs in the modern day NFL without doing something wrong. To have a GM do the exact opposite of business as usual at one bills drive is refreshing, and will finally lead to a different product on the field.

considering we have been perpetual losers for time out of mind, adding GOOD players (even if overpaying) is unlikely to result in the team being worse.

But why not complain?

[better days]

This strikes me as so far from what is actually happening.

Snyder goes for big-name, past their prime guys who look good on the back nameplates of jerseys in his stadiums pro shop.

Whaley is using a blank checkbook to fill out GLARING holes on the roster that have been there for 15+ years because the team has been operating on a shoe string budget.

You don't go a decade and a half without making the playoffs in the modern day NFL without doing something wrong. To have a GM do the exact opposite of business as usual at one bills drive is refreshing, and will finally lead to a different product on the field.

considering we have been perpetual losers for time out of mind, adding GOOD players (even if overpaying) is unlikely to result in the team being worse.

But why not complain?

Nice Steely Dan reference.

[starrymessenger]

Plenty of people are complaining that Thomas is overpaid, but at least Thomas has played like a superstar. If he sustains his level of production in Jacksonville (24 TDs in two years), they will be extremely happy to have him. Would you be happy if Clay sustains his production here?

http://www.chatsports.com/jacksonville-jaguars/a/Is-Julius-Thomas-Overpaid-2-11230034

Hardly a complaint (unless you are maybe a Broncos fan). Just the expected musings whenever a player, especially a FA, signs a lucrative contract. And it's entirely natural and appropriate to wonder whether Clay will live up to the compensation being paid. He could miss significant time for injury (touch wood) in which case he won't have been worth that guaranteed amount. But, assuming his knee checked out that's a risk most teams have to live with.
Except for his TD totals, Clay's numbers in 2013 and 2014 are in line with Thomas's over fewer games played. And he wasn't playing in the Denver O with Peyton Manning targeting him. Like I said, expect those TD totals to go down (while still being good) with Bortles and the Jags. And expect Clay's TD totals to increase (certainly over 2014 where he missed time with injuries). And Thomas is pretty much exclusively a receiving TE. He can't block. Clay most certainly can. He can't line up in the backfield. Clay can.
Clay never even lined up as a TE his first two years in the league. Always in the backfield. For that reason his blocking was initially very poor. However in one year after the change it went from bad to very good. And that should tell you something else you need to know about Clay. He is a quick study and very coachable. When a kid comes into the league you hope that he can adjust to the very much more demanding pro game. In the best of cases the young player not only adjusts but his development continues an upward trajectory despite the tougher competition. That's when you know you've bagged a winner. That's Charles Clay.
In the Bills O he will be a force to be reckoned with and he will make our outstanding skill position players much better. He can line up all over the field and is a DCs matchup nightmare.
Landing him is extremely important and would from a personnel perspective account for the greatest single difference/improvement over last year's O so far. And that's the reason the Bills are bending over backwards to get him.

[black N yellow]

based on some other threads, not limited to "orton will be our starter in 2015, take it to the bank.." and "sorry we gave up hughes for mccoy", I'm thinking Clay will now catch 18 touchdowns this year for the Bills.

[YardRat]

Gee, I'm glad Clay is a good blocker, everybody knew we needed to spend money on somebody that could do that. Unfortunately, it went to a player two spots to the right of where it should've gone.

[Ingtar33]

Dumb on every level is a gross overstatement. Chandler was a crappy blocker, and had a knack for dropping easy catches.

My real beef with the Clay contract offer is the money - how the heck did we just make this guy the 4th highest paid TE in the league? I dont think we'll regret signing Clay by any means, but it seems overpriced.

well if you trust the bills front office this was a move to guarantee the pats won't be able to resign Gronk next year. If clay is worth 8mil, then Gronk is worth 20.

[The Beef]

Wooooo we got some hot takes up in here...

First we got some Robeat Royale references. Anytime you can inflate someone's worth by saying... He was better than Royale... Well, that's a hot take.

I like the Julius Thomas takes. First, realize Thomas is one of the worst blocking TE's in the league, he's more wide out then TE. He is not Antonio Gates. He's not going to put up the same numbers in Jacksonville. He had great wide outs around him and the best regular season QB ever. He will be lucky to get 24 TD's in his next 48 games with Bortles and company.

The worst take is 'Whaley backed himself in a corner by cutting Chandler". Uhhhh no he didn't. Chandler isn't a match for the offense, and the position needed be uograded. TE is not an easy spot to upgrade. Graham, Gates and Thomas were not high draft picks. There are lots of guys that look the part, but just can't make it.

Clay is a great fit for the offense. Whaley had to structure the deal with a ton of money up front because of the transition tag, not because Chandler got cut.

It's funny to see so many takes out there saying "this isn't how the Patriots build their team". Yeah when you have one of the best QB's ever you can build a team however the **** you want. It's a fact McCoy, Clay and Harvin are an upgrade over Spiller, Chandler, Hogan. Yes we paid close to top dollar to upgrade, sometimes you have to pay for talent.

Back to Clay, after next year his contract is going to be extremely team friendly. 3 years and 14M will turn out to be a great value. Plus, it's not like salaries are dropping. 2 years from now Gronk will be in line for a ridiculous extension, Graham will bee probably be close to a restructure/new deal. This deal is going to easily be fair market value when you see where salaries are 4 years from now.

Also if somehow a QB like say Rivers hits the market next year. You think he wants to go to battle with Chandler, Boobie Dixon and Marquise Goodwin or Shady, Clay and an owner/FO who is aggressive in getting talent and taking care of its players?

[TacklingDummy]

14 Touchdowns in his career and the Bills make him the 4th highest paid TE in football. This franchise really is a joke.

[better days]

This franchise really is a joke NO MORE.

Fixed that for you.

LMAO at people that are now complaining about the money the Bills are spending.

Pegula is NOT CHEAP.

[Jry44]

Gee, I'm glad Clay is a good blocker, everybody knew we needed to spend money on somebody that could do that. Unfortunately, it went to a player two spots to the right of where it should've gone.

We all agree that we need linemen. NO one has said otherwise. Now, name one player that we neglected to go after on the oline! You've yet to do that and instead use this to ***** about every other signing. Iupati was the only big name FA on the oline to hit the market, but he wasn't leaving the west coast. B'lo offered Bulaga more than GB did, but he opted to stay before he hit FA. THAT WAS IT as far as the FA market was concerned for the OL. Now again.... who did you suggest we sign when there was NO ONE available??

Just because we haven't added any linemen yet does not mean that we won't either. There is still this thing called the draft and there will be more cuts come June. We don't HAVE to address everything in a week!

[Night Train]

Clay is overpaid, like Mario Williams. I like Mario a ton and could care less how many gold bricks he owns.

Chandler dropped/fumbled away too many balls in key situations. Plus a guy his size should be a good blocker and he isn't. He was always a bridge to the next guy.

[swiper]

Why did the Bills have to overpay for him at all? Why are people treating him like a superstar?

I'll restate one of the questions from that post: If he catches 64 passes for 682 yards and 4-5 TDs (the average of his last two seasons) a year, would you be satisfied with Clay's contract?

I said the same earlier. He'd better put up great numbers. Better than those. Far better. Antonio Gates better.

[HHURRICANE]

The worst take is 'Whaley backed himself in a corner by cutting Chandler". Uhhhh no he didn't. Chandler isn't a match for the offense, and the position needed be uograded. TE is not an easy spot to upgrade. Graham, Gates and Thomas were not high draft picks. There are lots of guys that look the part, but just can't make it.

Clay is a great fit for the offense. Whaley had to structure the deal with a ton of money up front because of the transition tag, not because Chandler got cut.


I'll give anyone the argument that Clay should be better than Chandler, that's not the issue. The issue is you don't cut Chandler until you sign Clay. Without a serviceable TE on the roster Whaley has to get Clay or he looks like an idiot. Hence the definition of "backed yourself in a corner."

This contract is dumb. This guy gets the majority of his money the first two years. If this guy wants to retire after two years nothing will stop him. I'm sure anyone here that works would love that deal.

It doesn't look likely that Miami will take this deal but if they do than Whaley is going to look terrible and he'll have less draft picks because of it. Maybe Miami will sign Clay and trade him to the Jets.

[gr8slayer]

Difference being, no coordinator in their right mind has to game plan for Chandler, they have to for someone explosive like Clay.

[Strongman]

Rex and Roman must be planning on using Clay as more of an H-back than a true TE. He's versatile enough for that whereas Chandler isn't.

[starrymessenger]

I said the same earlier. He'd better put up great numbers. Better than those. Far better. Antonio Gates better.
Assuming his knee issue was just something he had to play through last year and not a recurring problem, his numbers should be good. But his value to the Bills should greatly exceed his numbers (he has to share touches with quite a few impact positional players). He will make those other players better in both the passing and the running game because he needs always to be accounted for in ways that Chandler never did. That's not just being a decoy. That's being a major factor because the opposition knows how good he is and what he can do.
Bills certainly took on some risk in inking him to that offer sheet, not so much by the amount of the guaranteed portion IMO but, as has been mentioned, by the timing of the payout. But that was necessary to poison the well for Miami. Here where it is good to know something about the person. From all accounts Clay is not only an outstanding player but a great person. Idk if anyone heard Joe Rose the Fins broadcaster and former Miami TE on Murph the other day. He absolutely raves about Clay not just because of his football skills but because of who and what he is. BTW he says he has never seen a player improve as dramatically as Clay has year over year. Bills and Fins both know that this guy is a stud. Landing him will be a great move assuming it happens.

[YardRat]

We all agree that we need linemen. NO one has said otherwise. Now, name one player that we neglected to go after on the oline! You've yet to do that and instead use this to ***** about every other signing. Iupati was the only big name FA on the oline to hit the market, but he wasn't leaving the west coast. B'lo offered Bulaga more than GB did, but he opted to stay before he hit FA. THAT WAS IT as far as the FA market was concerned for the OL. Now again.... who did you suggest we sign when there was NO ONE available??

Just because we haven't added any linemen yet does not mean that we won't either. There is still this thing called the draft and there will be more cuts come June. We don't HAVE to address everything in a week!

You can't be serious if you think Iupati and Bulaga were the only offensive linemen worth going after in free agency. Boling, Franklin, Carpenter...hell, Wisniewski is still out there, as is Blaylock. Nobody, not ONE other than rumors, has been seriously linked to the Bills except for Bulaga, and maybe Iupati but that's probably still just speculation from the Roman connection, so that leaves at least five from the above list that have been neglected up until this point.

If anything has become obvious this off season, it's that Whaley's philosophy is to spend money on 'bling' positions, and grow your linemen with the draft. I've accepted that if it's the route he wants to take, but we better hope like hell that Kromer can get a ****-ton out of the young guys already on the roster and any we may pick up in this year's draft.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

If anything has become obvious this off season, it's that Whaley's philosophy is to spend money on 'bling' positions, and grow your linemen with the draft. I've accepted that if it's the route he wants to take, but we better hope like hell that Kromer can get a ****-ton out of the young guys already on the roster and any we may pick up in this year's draft.

I don't know if that's 100% true, he did throw some money at Chris Williams last year. I think the issue is the disconnect between his impression of the linemen he's brought in (they just need time to develop and a proper system) our impression of those players (Kill it with fire!)

[YardRat]

I don't know if that's 100% true, he did throw some money at Chris Williams last year. I think the issue is the disconnect between his impression of the linemen he's brought in (they just need time to develop and a proper system) our impression of those players (Kill it with fire!)

Nothing is 100% there are always exceptions. He signed Incognito this season also, admittedly cheaply.

[Dr. Lecter]

Nothing is 100% there are always exceptions. He signed Incognito this season also, admittedly cheaply.

Over 3 million isn't cheap

[YardRat]

Over 3 million isn't cheap

Spotrac has him at 1.1, 900mil salary and 100k signing bonus.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/richie-incognito/

If that is accurate, even if he doesn't end up starting it's damn cheap in my book.

[gr8slayer]

Some people just aren't happy, no matter what happens. If we don't sign Clay, the same people *****ing that we overpaid would be *****ing that we didn't make enough of an effort to improve the offense in FA.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Some people just aren't happy, no matter what happens. If we don't sign Clay, the same people *****ing that we overpaid would be *****ing that we didn't make enough of an effort to improve the offense in FA.

You know there are other choices besides "Overpay for Clay" and "Do absolutely nothing", right? I've said repeatedly what I thought they should have done.

[gr8slayer]

You know there are other choices besides "Overpay for Clay" and "Do absolutely nothing", right? I've said repeatedly what I thought they should have done.

I don't think we overpaid for him at all, I think it was the right move. I have to regularly remind myself when talking to other fans about him: "most of these people have only seen him play in two games a year".

[better days]

You know there are other choices besides "Overpay for Clay" and "Do absolutely nothing", right? I've said repeatedly what I thought they should have done.

Clay was the guy the Bills wanted & they got him.

[BertSquirtgum]

You know there are other choices besides "Overpay for Clay" and "Do absolutely nothing", right? I've said repeatedly what I thought they should have done.

The guy is 26 and just developed into a good tight end. He will continue to flourish and everyone will be happy with the contract by the time he isn't showing up for camp and wanting more money in three years.

[Buffalogic]

Contract will look like we fleeced him in 3 years.

[John Doe]

I don't think we overpaid for him at all, I think it was the right move. I have to regularly remind myself when talking to other fans about him: "most of these people have only seen him play in two games a year".

Living in south Florida, I have followed "Big Play" Clay since the Fins drafted him and I have always been impressed by the physical talent of the guy. I wanted the Bills to go after him. I am very happy that we got him.

[gr8slayer]

Living in south Florida, I have followed "Big Play" Clay since the Fins drafted him and I have always been impressed by the physical talent of the guy. I wanted the Bills to go after him. I am very happy that we got him.

I'm with you, seen every game of his career. People can't seem to grasp that he will only line up at TE 60% of the time.

[better days]

Over 3 million isn't cheap

When compared to the contract Levitre signed with the Titans, Incognito is CHEAP.

[colin]

I'm with you, seen every game of his career. People can't seem to grasp that he will only line up at TE 60% of the time.

And this is it. Roman wants to run out of power vs weaker fronts and pass to multiple targets vs bad matchups and a loaded box. This is what the pats do as well. The way to do this is to be able to have your play not easily predicted based on personnel on the field. We were super predictable last season on o. Clay, McCoy, and Watkins and harvin are legit play makers who can be used on screens, play action, trick plays, and in either direction. Wr screens and some passes to the rb basically won the pats a super bowl, this is what roman is going for and all of these pieces contribute. Only question is can our qb perform, and how will the ol look. Last year we can point at bad ol and blah qb play, but chandler hogan and a half crippled Freddie didn't do the o any favors, now its clay harvin and McCoy, Along w woods and Watkins. Totally different ball game.