When you discuss deflatgate with non football fans

[Cali512]

So my gf hates football, and so does a co worker of mine. Yet the deflategate thing interests them because they dont understand how Brady isnt kicked out of the nfl. When you dont have a history of watching Brady and being a fan of football, seeing black and white, Brady should be gone. No doubt about the fact that the only thing keeping him here is his history.

[Meathead]

thats true

first thing my mom says when i told her brady got caught cheating was so they have to give back that superbowl, right?

when i told her four games probably two and maybe nuthin she said now i know youre foolin with me

[acehole]

He will not get his sentence reduced.

[Meathead]

this is one of the reasons i want a long court battle to drag it all out.

most fans have a hero worship syndrome going on with athletes. to them marcia is sorta god-like. thats why a lot of fans who dont even like the cheatriots have an attitude of hey it just shows they will do anything to win. those fans look at is as a good thing. its kinda sick but its real

the longer it stays in the publics attention the more non-fans will tune in and the more likely 'normal' morality rules will re-emerge. marcia will be completely disgraced and retire a pariah everywhere except boston. im hoping at least

[sudzy]

first thing my mom says when i told her brady got caught cheating was so they have to give back that superbowl, right?




They get caught cheating before the Super Bowl and not only are they allowed to compete, they name the guy behind the cheating MVP. What a joke the NFL is. I thought Indy and Baltimore should have played during the bye week and the winner of that played the Seahawks.

[DynaPaul]

Sanity from the people who aren't even fans. Go figure.

[Meathead]

They get caught cheating before the Super Bowl and not only are they allowed to compete, they name the guy behind the cheating MVP. What a joke the NFL is. I thought Indy and Baltimore should have played during the bye week and the winner of that played the Seahawks.

im not sure thats realistic bc they needed to complete the investigation first. also, baltimore had already packed up so i doubt they could have played on short notice

but if we were really being fair/moral with this, they would indeed have to give up that title. they played the entire season with deflated balls, for crying out loud

i cant wait until the fumble numbers start coming in and it shows the cheaters no longer have the 'magic fumble cure'. ****ing cheating bastards

[RandolphDuke]

This whole thing is so dumb. Bills fans are absolutely delusional about it.

Your non-football fan friends are even dumber.

If you think the excellence of Tom Brady (who I hate) has anything to do with the air pressure in the footballs then you are an idiot. He is the best qb in the history of football. And before you bring up Joe Montana, Jerry Rice recently came clean and admitted to using copious amounts of stickum throughout his career. Are we vacating those super bowls as well? Ha ha ha.

[upstart]

Why in Gods name would a player be kicked out of the NFL for letting a few oz out of a football ? I'm not saying Mr. Brady did it ,however ,this issue is as ******ed as the last time the NFL went after the Super Bowl Champions. With the filming crap.


You clowns need to move on. I understand the hate , the Super Bowl Champions with Mr. Brady have kicked the ***** out of the Bills for the last 15 years. It's ok , years ago Jim Kelly and the Bills owned the Pats.

And anyone that believes Mr. Brady will miss a single game needs to take a few deep depths . Because it's not going to happen.

[Joe Fo Sho]

If you think the excellence of Tom Brady (who I hate) has anything to do with the air pressure in the footballs then you are an idiot.

If you think it didn't help him, then you're also an idiot.

[upstart]

If you think it didn't help him, then you're also an idiot.

Why do you care about this issue. It makes you look like a hater.

Suck it up, the Super Bowl Champs have owned your team for over 15 years. That's the way it is.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Why do you care about this issue. It makes you look like a hater.

Suck it up, the Super Bowl Champs have owned your team for over 15 years. That's the way it is.

All I did was respond to someone.

Why do you care so much that anyone else cares? Worried that your boy Tom's legacy is going to be tainted because a bunch of Bills fans on a Bills forum are still talking about how he cheated?

[Mace]

I don't even know how to argue this with football fans much less non.

You'd think a heavier ball would be easier to catch and maintain, maybe easier to kick, but harder to throw.

And it still makes no sense to me that the NFL doesn't use standard balls and the refs use multiple gauges and don't maintain custody of the stupid balls, or even why the refs should, the NFL can afford to hire a standard ball guy and backup per game.

To start with, the NFL even lets a guy go into a bathroom with a bag of balls ? What if he gets the poops or has hepatitis or AIDS and gets it all over them. Does that mean the ball guys are regularly health tested and signed off, so then you have to test and sign off their docs, so maybe there is a need for league ball guy physicians ?

Make the stupid balls standard and too damn bad if anyone gripes. Sealed bag, everyone gets the same stupid tested, registered damn balls already and good luck using them. If you can't win using a standard freaking ball get other players who can use it better.

[SmokeShowin]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/16/david-carr-spoke-of-deflating-footballs-in-2006/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs


“Carr, like several other quarterbacks, said Denver was one of the toughest places to play,” Battista wrote. “He said he thought the ball expanded slightly at the altitude and felt slick because of the lower humidity. Before Houston’s preseason game at Denver, Carr instructed the ball boys to let a little air out of the Texans’ footballs.” (Emphasis added.)
When that statement was published in November 2006, no one said a word about the possibility that the Texans or anyone else was cheating. And if it sparked any type of consternation for the league office, those issues remained internal — resolved without any sort of brouhaha, investigation, or discipline.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I don't even know how to argue this with football fans much less non.

You'd think a heavier ball would be easier to catch and maintain, maybe easier to kick, but harder to throw.

And it still makes no sense to me that the NFL doesn't use standard balls and the refs use multiple gauges and don't maintain custody of the stupid balls, or even why the refs should, the NFL can afford to hire a standard ball guy and backup per game.

To start with, the NFL even lets a guy go into a bathroom with a bag of balls ? What if he gets the poops or has hepatitis or AIDS and gets it all over them. Does that mean the ball guys are regularly health tested and signed off, so then you have to test and sign off their docs, so maybe there is a need for league ball guy physicians ?

Make the stupid balls standard and too damn bad if anyone gripes. Sealed bag, everyone gets the same stupid tested, registered damn balls already and good luck using them. If you can't win using a standard freaking ball get other players who can use it better.

I agree that the NFL has to share the blame. It's absolutely ridiculous that something as important as a game ball can be as easily altered as it was for the Pats. Then again, when these protocols have been in place for years, no one really expects teams to try and cheat them. I guess they have to treat everyone as if they're that 10 year old kid on the play ground that always claims to never have been tagged down when playing 2 hand touch.

[yanklovver]

Why do you care about this issue. It makes you look like a hater.

Suck it up, the Super Bowl Champs have owned your team for over 15 years. That's the way it is.
we have a geniune dislike/hatred for the pats....(which you are a fan of).....so get off this board if you dont like the comments of true bills fans.....

[Joe Fo Sho]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/16/david-carr-spoke-of-deflating-footballs-in-2006/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs



What's your point?

[Mr. Pink]

What's your point?

The point of the article is that the league and everyone else doesn't give two craps if the team in question is bad. The NFL wants parity and what better way to try and achieve parity than to try and smack down the team who has been basically the best team in the NFL for the past 15 years? They tried with Spygate and failed so now they've moved on to something else.

Who talks about the Browns and textgate? No one. Who talks about the problems the Falcons had? No one. Who talked about the Chargers using a stick um like substance a few years ago? No one. Why were none of these "scandals" talked about? None of those teams matter.

David Carr admitted publicly back in 2006 that he liked deflating the football and wasn't the only one. Where was the NFL investigation? It did not exist. Now why do you think there was no investigation 9 years ago but now apparently it's a big deal?

[Joe Fo Sho]

The NFL wants parity and what better way to try and achieve parity than to try and smack down the team who has been basically the best team in the NFL for the past 15 years? They tried with Spygate and failed so now they've moved on to something else.

Awww, poor Patriots.


Who talks about the Browns and textgate? No one. Who talks about the problems the Falcons had? No one. Who talked about the Chargers using a stick um like substance a few years ago? No one. Why were none of these "scandals" talked about? None of those teams matter.

You mean the teams that fully cooperated with the investigations into their actions and accepted their punishments without suing the NFL? Yeah, why would we be talking about them still?

Don't forget about the Falcons pumping noise into their stadium during games. They admitted that they did it and accepted their punishment too, like they should have. No one is talking about them either.

Do you think that this would be this big of a deal if Brady came out and admitted what he did and apologized for it? Maybe gave a charitable donation with his Superbowl bonus and accepted the small fine that he probably would have got. It would be long gone by now if that's what he did, but he didn't because he doesn't want to tarnish his reputation.


David Carr admitted publicly back in 2006 that he liked deflating the football and wasn't the only one. Where was the NFL investigation? It did not exist. Now why do you think there was no investigation 9 years ago but now apparently it's a big deal?

Someone should have put a complaint into the league 9 years ago, it's not my fault they didn't. Clearly the NFL should be reading every interview done by every player in every media outlet everyday in order to find opportunities to investigate acts of cheating.

[BertSquirtgum]

Why do you care about this issue. It makes you look like a hater.

Suck it up, the Super Bowl Champs have owned your team for over 15 years. That's the way it is.

Get a life

[CommissarSpartacus]

I don't even know how to argue this with football fans much less non.

You'd think a heavier ball would be easier to catch and maintain, maybe easier to kick, but harder to throw.

And it still makes no sense to me that the NFL doesn't use standard balls and the refs use multiple gauges and don't maintain custody of the stupid balls, or even why the refs should, the NFL can afford to hire a standard ball guy and backup per game.

To start with, the NFL even lets a guy go into a bathroom with a bag of balls ? What if he gets the poops or has hepatitis or AIDS and gets it all over them. Does that mean the ball guys are regularly health tested and signed off, so then you have to test and sign off their docs, so maybe there is a need for league ball guy physicians ?

Make the stupid balls standard and too damn bad if anyone gripes. Sealed bag, everyone gets the same stupid tested, registered damn balls already and good luck using them. If you can't win using a standard freaking ball get other players who can use it better.

The rule about footballs was changed after the league was petitioned by 20 qbs to allow them to prep their own footballs. Tom Brady & Peyton Manning represented the qbs.

Since then, NO ONE has complained about it, until Ryan Grigson and his equipment manager decided they needed some help to beat the Patriots and came up with this stunt.

Do you REALLY think that Tom Brady's success is because of slightly deflated footballs? That's ridiculous.

And the question of if they actually DID deflate the footballs for a competitive advantage is still not close to being proved.

Don't get sucked in by the haters, they're deluded and emotionally twisted. Take our friend meathead for example. Over the years he's subjected us to reams and reams of new age spiritual twaddle and centrist baloney, and yet with this issue he's foaming at the mouth and wishing for Tom Brady to be burned at the stake. the rest are just as bad. The guys give me bad memories from my youth, when so many weekend flag football games were ruined by schoolyard lawyers who couldn't even stand to lose a pick up game.

There's something about being a football fan that either brings out, or enables, the worst in some people.

We saw it with spygate and we're seeing it again now.

And it's not just reserved to allegations of cheating. I remember back in the 2003 season, Drew Bledsoe went down with a concussion somewhere around game 12. Drew said he was okay, so they started him in the next game and wham, he goes down with ANOTHER concussion. Two concussions in two weeks. So, since the Bills were out of the playoff picture, I suggested that they sit Bledsoe for the next game and let Travis Brown play.

Well, the haters went cra2y and insisted that because they'd paid good money to buy their tickets, well, dammit, they wanted to see Drew Bledsoe play if there was any way he could drag it out on the field.

I pointed out that concussions are serious and two in consecutive weeks was especially dangerous (this was before the league woke up to why head injuries needed to be taken seriously) but the haters didn't care, they didn't want to see the backup in the game. And then they started in on me as a prototypical guy who loves the backup QB more than the starter. Jaw dropping.

So, anyway, don't feel that you have to knuckle under to these jagoffs just because they hide behind being a Bills fan. Football is plagued by drunken buffoons and angry losers working out their personal issues while pretending to be fans, but they aren't.

They're only fans of themselves and the opportunity to act out.

And these are the guys that are behind Roger Goodell and Ted Wells, two sorry excuses for human beings.

They deserve each other.

[swiper]

The mistake was allowing the qbs/teams to handle the footballs at all before the game in the first place. Uniformity. What exactly was a qb going to do, exactly, to "prepare" a ball for game time?

[chris66]

The mistake was allowing the qbs/teams to handle the footballs at all before the game in the first place. Uniformity. What exactly was a qb going to do, exactly, to "prepare" a ball for game time?

Still say let the qb play with the pressure they want. Not a big deal. If EJ plays with and 11 psi ball instead of 13 its not going to make a difference. He still is going suck.

[Novacane]

Why do you care about this issue. It makes you look like a hater.

Suck it up, the Super Bowl Champs have owned your team for over 15 years. That's the way it is.



Why did he do it if it didn't help him? Simple question. Answer it!

[CommissarSpartacus]

LOL! It's gonna be so funny when Goodell, Wells and Vincent get exposed when this whole thing is overturned.

There's a very good reason why Goodell won't allow an INDEPENDENT arbitrator judge the appeal. Hearing the appeal himself is the only way he can save his sorry ass and rescue the reputations of his two stooges.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Still say let the qb play with the pressure they want. Not a big deal. If EJ plays with and 11 psi ball instead of 13 its not going to make a difference. He still is going suck.

I guess we'll never know. Brady is the only QB who got caught deflating footballs, so we only have him to compare to.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I guess we'll never know. Brady is the only QB who got caught deflating footballs, so we only have him to compare to.

He hasn't been caught doing anything. He's been accused of something and judged "probably" guilty by Goodell's stooge.

Try to be accurate, okay? You won't look quite so bad.

[Joe Fo Sho]

He hasn't been caught doing anything. He's been accused of something and judged "probably" guilty by Goodell's stooge.

Try to be accurate, okay? You won't look quite so bad.

If we're going to be technical about it, he was actually judged as being more than probable of guilt.

Maybe you should try to be accurate, it won't make you look like you want Brady inside you so bad.

[trapezeus]

Why do you care about this issue. It makes you look like a hater.

Suck it up, the Super Bowl Champs have owned your team for over 15 years. That's the way it is.

so many times we've heard crap about the integrity of the game as it relates to dancing in the endzone. here is an example where the actual integrity of the game is in question. and frankly it's the tip of the iceberg on how many things they do against the rules. and instead of pointing them out, pats fans want it dismissed.

that's not how the world should work.

you don't have a genius coach. you have one who is willing to bend every rule to win. and he has a qb who is agrees with that philosophy. they could have gotten away with it if they didn't insist on always finishing at the top. now 15 years later, the results look absurd. they don't look dominant as even the best dynasties have never had that level of consistency with no name talent.

a reasonable person is insulted by this charade. and the nfl unfortunately has to start cleaning it up. they let it go to develop this new boston fan base, but now its at the point that it's actually hurting the fan bases that have always been around.

[CommissarSpartacus]

If we're going to be technical about it, he was actually judged as being more than probable of guilt.

Maybe you should try to be accurate, it won't make you look like you want Brady inside you so bad.

Probably = more than probable.

LOL! The depths you guys will sink to to get your hate on is mind-boggling.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Probably = more than probable.

Are you saying that these two sentences do not mean the same thing?

It's probable that it will rain today.

It's probably going to rain today.


LOL! The depths you guys will sink to to get your hate on is mind-boggling.

Says the guy who has wasted more time posting on this subject than anyone else here.

[djjimkelly]

Why did he do it if it didn't help him? Simple question. Answer it!

i definitely think fumbles are less likely with a softer ball u can grip it better .

u think its coincidence the pats never fumble ill bet they are in the top 5 in fumbles next season


ANY TAKERS?

[Discotrish]

You don't need Tom's DNA on the deflator pin to understand his level of involvement.

Patti

[better days]

Why in Gods name would a player be kicked out of the NFL for letting a few oz out of a football ? I'm not saying Mr. Brady did it ,however ,this issue is as ******ed as the last time the NFL went after the Super Bowl Champions. With the filming crap.


You clowns need to move on. I understand the hate , the Super Bowl Champions with Mr. Brady have kicked the ***** out of the Bills for the last 15 years. It's ok , years ago Jim Kelly and the Bills owned the Pats.

And anyone that believes Mr. Brady will miss a single game needs to take a few deep depths . Because it's not going to happen.

Robert Kraft: "Last time there was no dispute about the facts. The team admittedly said what happened. ...It was illegal to videotape. And in the end we admitted it and took our penance."

The only thing ******ed is CHEATERS fans thinking the rest of the football watching world believes the Pats* have the right to call themselves World Champions.

A team that has CONSISTENTLY CHEATED since Belicheat was named HC. And NEVER won a Super Bowl without CHEATING.

An owners meeting is coming up soon, I doubt Kraft gets very much support from other owners.

I believe the vast majority of NFL owners is fed up with that CHEATING teams ways.

[Bill Cody]

LOL! It's gonna be so funny when Goodell, Wells and Vincent get exposed when this whole thing is overturned.

There's a very good reason why Goodell won't allow an INDEPENDENT arbitrator judge the appeal. Hearing the appeal himself is the only way he can save his sorry ass and rescue the reputations of his two stooges.

It appears Goodell does have the right to hear the case though according to the CBA. If so, the only way it could get overturned is if Brady goes to court. And from what I've read that would require that he turn over his phone and computer in discovery.

[chris66]

It appears Goodell does have the right to hear the case though according to the CBA. If so, the only way it could get overturned is if Brady goes to court. And from what I've read that would require that he turn over his phone and computer in discovery.
turning over the phones not a big deal if you and I have a text conversation do they need your phone if they have mine.

[better days]

Probably = more than probable.

LOL! The depths you guys will sink to to get your hate on is mind-boggling.

Well, I think the vast majority of people HATE CHEATING & CHEATERS.

What is mind-boggling is the depths of CHEATING the Patriots* will sink to in order to win.

And that their fans TRY to defend that CHEATING is even more mind-boggling.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Are you saying that these two sentences do not mean the same thing?

It's probable that it will rain today.

It's probably going to rain today.

LOL! Being sneaky again, huh?

It's more than probable it will rain to day = it's probably going to rain today

Continuing to double down on stupidity only makes it worse...


Says the guy who has wasted more time posting on this subject than anyone else here.

It's not the time spent that's the problem, it's what you do with that time. You and the others spend it hating, I don't.

[better days]

turning over the phones not a big deal if you and I have a text conversation do they need your phone if they have mine.

Yes. it is important.

If there are text messages on Brady's phone that mention deflating footballs, it is no longer circumstantial evidence, but concrete proof Brady was responsible for the deflating of the footballs.

But even without Brady's phone, there is a LOT of circumstantial evidence. Enough to KNOW he is GUILTY.

Much like there is enough circumstantial evidence to convict his teammate of a capital crime.

[CommissarSpartacus]

It appears Goodell does have the right to hear the case though according to the CBA. If so, the only way it could get overturned is if Brady goes to court. And from what I've read that would require that he turn over his phone and computer in discovery.

Just because Goodell has the right doesn't mean he HAS TO do it, and when there are so many questions about his impartiality, him insisting on doing it would only make it look worse...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Robert Kraft: "Last time there was no dispute about the facts. The team admittedly said what happened. ...It was illegal to videotape. And in the end we admitted it and took our penance."


Indeed last time there was no dispute about the facts because the Pats broke the rule INTENTIONALLY.

No "cheating" happened because the videotape was never used.

Now, do us all a favor and use your brain for once.

Please, don't reference Spygate when you have no clue what it was all about.

[ICRockets]

You mean the teams that fully cooperated with the investigations into their actions and accepted their punishments without suing the NFL? Yeah, why would we be talking about them still?

Don't forget about the Falcons pumping noise into their stadium during games. They admitted that they did it and accepted their punishment too, like they should have. No one is talking about them either.

Do you think that this would be this big of a deal if Brady came out and admitted what he did and apologized for it? Maybe gave a charitable donation with his Superbowl bonus and accepted the small fine that he probably would have got. It would be long gone by now if that's what he did, but he didn't because he doesn't want to tarnish his reputation.



This. Exactly this. I don't care about the deflated balls. And while the math is compelling re: fumble stats, there simply is nothing definitive in the Wells report that you can point to as corroborative evidence. The issue is that the Patriots insist on lying through their teeth instead of accepting responsibility for their transgression. I agree with Shiva that the people who gloss over this to ***** about the Patriots cheating look silly. If the conversation were about them LYING, then I think it'd be a more productive talk.

[better days]

Just because Goodell has the right doesn't mean he HAS TO do it, and when there are so many questions about his impartiality, him insisting on doing it would only make it look worse...

Well, I would rather a person other than Goodell was the arbitrator as well.

After all, Goodell DESTROYED ALL the evidence of CHEATING by the Patriots* in Spygate.

[better days]

Indeed last time there was no dispute about the facts because the Pats did it INTENTIONALLY.

No "cheating" happened because the videotape was never used.

Now, do us all a favor and use your brain for once.

Please, don't reference Spygate when you have no clue what it was all about.

LMAO at you & the depths you sink to in defending the CHEATERS.

If there were no Cheating, the Patriots* would not have been punished. FACT.

[Joe Fo Sho]

LOL! Being sneaky again, huh?

It's more than probable it will rain to day = it's probably going to rain today

Continuing to double down on stupidity only makes it worse...

Then stop doing that.


It's not the time spent that's the problem, it's what you do with that time. You and the others spend it hating, I don't.

You might be the biggest hater on this board, just not towards the Patriots.

[CommissarSpartacus]

This. Exactly this. I don't care about the deflated balls. And while the math is compelling re: fumble stats, there simply is nothing definitive in the Wells report that you can point to as corroborative evidence. The issue is that the Patriots insist on lying through their teeth instead of accepting responsibility for their transgression. I agree with Shiva that the people who gloss over this to ***** about the Patriots cheating look silly. If the conversation were about them LYING, then I think it'd be a more productive talk.

You don't KNOW they're lying and the fumble stats are a different issue.

If the league wishes to take it up, then that's fine, but a fan generated issue has nothing to do with what's going on between Goodell and the Patriots.

ALL the teams in the league were allowed to prepare the balls the way they wanted to, which could mean all sorts of measures to make the ball easier to hold onto.

Plus, players are ALLOWED to wear gloves with extra tacky palms. recievers and RBs wear them all the time, and some qbs as well. So why is it that you can make the ball easier to hold onto with artificial hand coverings, but deflating the ball slightly to achieve the same thing for bare hands is a satanic plot?

As I said before, it's in the leagues interest to help the qbs PLAY BETTER, because SO MANY OF THEM PLAY LIKE CRAP.

The fact is, they are only USING this issue to go after the Pats and would have NEVER bothered if it had been another team.

[CommissarSpartacus]

After all, Goodell DESTROYED ALL the evidence of CHEATING by the Patriots* in Spygate.

He destroyed it because there was nothing to it and he didn't want anyone else to reali2e it.

He destroyed it for HIS benefit and no one else's.

[better days]

He destroyed it because there was nothing to it and he didn't want anyone else to reali2e it.

He destroyed it for HIS benefit and no one else's.

​LMAO at this post

[Joe Fo Sho]

The fact is, they are only USING this issue to go after the Pats and would have NEVER bothered if it had been another team.

It surprises me that you still don't know what a fact is.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Then stop doing that.

Not only is it more than probable you're a dumbass, you're also probably a dumbass.


You might be the biggest hater on this board, just not towards the Patriots.

Sorry, but YOUR side has crowed about how much you HATE Tom Brady and the Pats since this issue emerged.

I have never said I hate anyone or any particular team.

But hearing someone whine "You do it TOO!" always brightens my day...

[Joe Fo Sho]

Not only is it more than probable you're a dumbass, you're also probably a dumbass.

Oh burn. That hurts, internet man. I wonder why everyone thinks you're opinions are worthless when you come back with posts like this.


Sorry, but YOUR side has crowed about how much you HATE Tom Brady and the Pats since this issue emerged.

Weird how that happens on a Bills message board.


I have never said I hate anyone or any particular team.

You don't have to say those particular words for it not to be true, hater.


But hearing someone whine "You do it TOO!" always brightens my day...

Let's add the word 'whine' to the ever growing list of words you don't understand. Man, that list is getting bigger and bigger with every post.

[feldspar]

Discussing Deflategate with Patriot fans is another thing altogether...

[chris66]

Discussing Deflategate with Patriot fans is another thing altogether...
Its not even worth discussing. Puplic opinion was set the morning after the afccg.

The funniest thing is that the Wells report even states that the pressure of the 11 balls fall into what the ideal gas law allows.

[ICRockets]

Its not even worth discussing. Puplic opinion was set the morning after the afccg.

The funniest thing is that the Wells report even states that the pressure of the 11 balls fall into what the ideal gas law allows.

No, it actually states the exact opposite.

From Page 111: "Specifically, all but three of the Patriots footballs, as measured by both gauges, registered pressure levels lower than the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law, when applied to the conditions most likely to have been present on the day of the AFC Championship game."

[ICRockets]

You don't KNOW they're lying


They claim McNally called himself "the deflator" because he was losing weight, and that his text 8 minutes later with nothing in between saying that he's "not going to espn...yet" was about a pair of shoes Jastremski gave him that he shouldn't have. It's your contention that this has even the slightest shred of credibility to it? If so, I'd like to have that conversation.

[CommissarSpartacus]

They claim McNally called himself "the deflator" because he was losing weight, and that his text 8 minutes later with nothing in between saying that he's "not going to espn...yet" was about a pair of shoes Jastremski gave him that he shouldn't have. It's your contention that this has even the slightest shred of credibility to it? If so, I'd like to have that conversation.

I guess you didn't read the thread because I dealt with that earlier.

The "deflator" email was sent May 14 2014 - the MIDDLE of the off-season. Why would he be using a juvenile nick-name for himself doing something underhanded just before games 4 months after the last game and four months before the next game? Or is he the type of guy who loves to refer to himself in the third person, ala "the deflator says this and the deflator says that" or "the deflator needs to get new tires for his ride" or "the deflator likes big butts and he cannot lie!"?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Weird how that happens on a Bills message board.


What is it about being a Bills fan that entitles you to hate people and organi2ations?

I've been a football fan for 55 years and it wasn't until I joined the range, and then here, that I learned there was a subset of fans that were PROUD of hating other teams and other players.

I never have.

Football is entertainment, you either like it or you don't, but hating individuals on those teams, or the teams themselves, never arose.

When did YOU learn it was okay to hate as long as you were a football fan?

[Discotrish]

You don't KNOW they're lying and the fumble stats are a different issue.

If the league wishes to take it up, then that's fine, but a fan generated issue has nothing to do with what's going on between Goodell and the Patriots.

ALL the teams in the league were allowed to prepare the balls the way they wanted to, which could mean all sorts of measures to make the ball easier to hold onto.

Plus, players are ALLOWED to wear gloves with extra tacky palms. recievers and RBs wear them all the time, and some qbs as well. So why is it that you can make the ball easier to hold onto with artificial hand coverings, but deflating the ball slightly to achieve the same thing for bare hands is a satanic plot?

As I said before, it's in the leagues interest to help the qbs PLAY BETTER, because SO MANY OF THEM PLAY LIKE CRAP.

The fact is, they are only USING this issue to go after the Pats and would have NEVER bothered if it had been another team.

That's quite a rationalization.

Hernandez was convicted on less evidence.

Patti

[ICRockets]

I guess you didn't read the thread because I dealt with that earlier.

The "deflator" email was sent May 14 2014 - the MIDDLE of the off-season. Why would he be using a juvenile nick-name for himself doing something underhanded just before games 4 months after the last game and four months before the next game? Or is he the type of guy who loves to refer to himself in the third person, ala "the deflator says this and the deflator says that" or "the deflator needs to get new tires for his ride" or "the deflator likes big butts and he cannot lie!"?

The implications are pretty obvious if you're not an idiot.

[Discotrish]

I guess you didn't read the thread because I dealt with that earlier.

The "deflator" email was sent May 14 2014 - the MIDDLE of the off-season. Why would he be using a juvenile nick-name for himself doing something underhanded just before games 4 months after the last game and four months before the next game? Or is he the type of guy who loves to refer to himself in the third person, ala "the deflator says this and the deflator says that" or "the deflator needs to get new tires for his ride" or "the deflator likes big butts and he cannot lie!"?

Because he's been doing this since 2007 and had no expectation of being caught.

Patti

[Joe Fo Sho]

No, it actually states the exact opposite.

From Page 111: "Specifically, all but three of the Patriots footballs, as measured by both gauges, registered pressure levels lower than the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law, when applied to the conditions most likely to have been present on the day of the AFC Championship game."

Haha, funny how the facts dispute a Patriot fan on this subject.

However, I don't think the Ideal Gas Law should be brought into this debate to prove anyone's point in one direction or the other. There are way too many variables involved to use that law to show anything.

[Joe Fo Sho]

What is it about being a Bills fan that entitles you to hate people and organi2ations?

I'm not entitled to do anything.


I've been a football fan for 55 years and it wasn't until I joined the range, and then here, that I learned there was a subset of fans that were PROUD of hating other teams and other players.

Stay away from the internet if you're trying to form an opinion of people, that's not how the internet works. Unless of course, you're trying to formulate an opinion of the way people act on the internet.

Try going outside and talking to real people.


Football is entertainment, you either like it or you don't, but hating individuals on those teams, or the teams themselves, never arose.

You need to listen to your own advice here. Yes, football is entertainment. For me, it is only entertainment and nothing else.

You're the one personalizing this whole thing saying people are out to get poor Tom Brady. I don't care who is on the other end of the punishment, if the QB of the NE Patriots cheated, he should deal with the consequences. If it were the Geno Smith who cheated, my feelings are that he should be punished. If Kyle Orton got caught cheating with the amount of information that's available in this case, I'd suck it up as a fan and admit that we cheated. I'd still gloat to the teams that we beat about how we beat them, but I wouldn't become completely blind as to what's going on.


When did YOU learn it was okay to hate as long as you were a football fan?

You keep using the word 'hate.' Just because you're a rival of a team and you root for them to lose, doesn't mean you hate them. I'm rooting against the Patriots right now in the only 'game' that is taking place...deflate-gate. Rooting for a Tom Brady suspension is equivalent to me rooting for the Colts when they play the Pats. It has nothing to do with Tom Brady, it has to do with things that are happening that can potentially help out the Bills. Tom Brady getting suspended helps the Bills...so that's what I'm rooting for.

I don't hate Tom Brady because he plays for a team that has consistently beat us for as long as I can remember. If that were the case then how come one of my favorite non-Bills of all-time is Vince Wilfork? How come I enjoy watching Gronkowski play so much? The 2 of them are pretty big reasons the Pats were able to stomp on us so bad. Ya know what though? If Gronk was being investigated like Hernandez was, I'd be rooting for a conclusion that kept him off of the football field. I don't care about them personally, because all they are to me is entertainment for 3 hours once a week.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Because he's been doing this since 2007 and had no expectation of being caught.

Patti

Yeah, nicknames tend to stick when you've been called them for 7 years.

[ICRockets]

Because he's been doing this since 2007 and had no expectation of being caught.

Patti

Apparently the implications are obvious even to idiots! Thanks, Patti.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Stay away from the internet if you're trying to form an opinion of people, that's not how the internet works. Unless of course, you're trying to formulate an opinion of the way people act on the internet.

Actually, one of the reasons the internet is interesting is because it allows people to behave in ways and say things they would never do or say in public. People drop their facades and reveal themselves BECAUSE they feel hidden behind a keyboard. It's a bi2arre form of democracy where teenagers can mouth off to their elders and the deluded can argue with the logical and the stupid can insist they're smart.

It's an advanced class in human behavior if you have the wit to reali2e it.

This whole deflategate thing is a perfect example of how the internet allows the id to escape the everyday constrictions of the super-ego so it can express it's deepest, darkest desires.

A case study in rush to judgment.

[CommissarSpartacus]

The implications are pretty obvious if you're not an idiot.

I just read a terrific book by Ken Follett called the Pillars of the Earth. It's about the building of the Kingsbridge Cathedral in the late 1100s and the plot is all about various conspiracies by the rich and powerful to ruin and besmirch the reputations of good hearted people for their own benefit.

Have you read it?

[jimmifli]

I just read a terrific book by Ken Follett called the Pillars of the Earth. It's about the building of the Kingsbridge Cathedral in the late 1100s and the plot is all about various conspiracies by the rich and powerful to ruin and besmirch the reputations of good hearted people for their own benefit.

Have you read it?
I'm really glad you enjoyed it.

[Joe Fo Sho]

and the stupid can insist they're smart.

Ahhh, now I understand what you're trying to do.

[better days]

Actually, one of the reasons the internet is interesting is because it allows people to behave in ways and say things they would never do or say in public. People drop their facades and reveal themselves BECAUSE they feel hidden behind a keyboard. It's a bi2arre form of democracy where teenagers can mouth off to their elders and the deluded can argue with the logical and the stupid can insist they're smart.

It's an advanced class in human behavior if you have the wit to reali2e it.

This whole deflategate thing is a perfect example of how the internet allows the id to escape the everyday constrictions of the super-ego so it can express it's deepest, darkest desires.

A case study in rush to judgment.

This post just reeks of irony.

Here is a clue for you, deflategate is not a TV sitcom.

[ICRockets]

I just read a terrific book by Ken Follett called the Pillars of the Earth. It's about the building of the Kingsbridge Cathedral in the late 1100s and the plot is all about various conspiracies by the rich and powerful to ruin and besmirch the reputations of good hearted people for their own benefit.

Have you read it?

I haven't, but I'll add it to the list.

[ICRockets]

Actually, one of the reasons the internet is interesting is because it allows people to behave in ways and say things they would never do or say in public. People drop their facades and reveal themselves BECAUSE they feel hidden behind a keyboard. It's a bi2arre form of democracy where teenagers can mouth off to their elders and the deluded can argue with the logical and the stupid can insist they're smart.

It's an advanced class in human behavior if you have the wit to reali2e it.

This whole deflategate thing is a perfect example of how the internet allows the id to escape the everyday constrictions of the super-ego so it can express it's deepest, darkest desires.

A case study in rush to judgment.

We get it. You've said on at least a dozen occasions that your favorite thread you've ever started is, "Would you rather be a dumb Bills fan or a smart Patriots fan?" You're getting involved here not because you genuinely believe the Patriots to be innocent, but because you live to push buttons, and you know that this topic is a smorgasbord of irrationality. My issue is that I find disingenuousness to be really boring, and not at all enlightening. You're arguing for the sake of your own entertainment, not for the sake of finding any sort of common ground with anybody else here.

[CommissarSpartacus]

We get it. You've said on at least a dozen occasions that your favorite thread you've ever started is, "Would you rather be a dumb Bills fan or a smart Patriots fan?" You're getting involved here not because you genuinely believe the Patriots to be innocent, but because you live to push buttons, and you know that this topic is a smorgasbord of irrationality. My issue is that I find disingenuousness to be really boring, and not at all enlightening. You're arguing for the sake of your own entertainment, not for the sake of finding any sort of common ground with anybody else here.

Actually, you don't get it. If I do push buttons, I do it to prove a point with people that are immune to logic and reason.

If I find myself entertained by the result, so much the better. It's not against the rules.

As for the Patriots ultimate guilt or innocence, logic and reason says there is nothing that points to the Pat's guilt other than some correlation/causation arguments, ala the media has labelled this Deflategate and Mcnally called himself the Deflator in an email, therefore there must have been a Tom Brady led conspiracy to give Tom Brady an illegal advantage that cheated everyone else out of their share of success.

At the same time, logic and reason point to shenanigans involving Ryan Grigson, his equipment manager, Troy Vincent, Ted Wells and Roger Goodell.

But the haters don't want to acknowledge any of this, they just want to keep screaming CHEATER, even though Brady and the Pats won THREE Superbowls before the rule was changed and won the last one by wasting Indy in the second half and beating Seattle Iin the big game WITH LEAGUE APPROVED BALLS.

So, sorry, but the "you just do this for your own entertainment" accusation doesn't wash.

I don't HAVE TO find common ground with *******s and morons and I'm always willing to discuss things reasonably with those that are willing to be reasonable.

You're just mad because of the dawning reali2ation you might have made a silly mistake.

The fact that patti had your back must have given you a hint, did it not?

[ICRockets]

Actually, you don't get it. If I do push buttons, I do it to prove a point with people that are immune to logic and reason.



So you're trying to prove a point to the very people you know are incapable of hearing it? And you think this makes sense?

[ICRockets]

At the same time, logic and reason point to shenanigans involving Ryan Grigson, his equipment manager, Troy Vincent, Ted Wells and Roger Goodell.


They really don't. You've been trying to make that point for 5 months, and it hasn't made a lick of sense to me in that entire time. It makes even less sense now that the report has made it abundantly clear that this has been going on long enough for the guy who's been handling the balls to have been calling himself "the deflator" even before the 2014 season. The Colts and the Patriots have played eachother how often in the last 3-8 years? Why is it unreasonable to think that there was an equipment guy for the Colts who has systematically noticed underinflated balls when he's against the Patriots, and finally decided to mention it to somebody with the clout to ask the league to look into it?

[ICRockets]

As for the Patriots ultimate guilt or innocence, logic and reason says there is nothing that points to the Pat's guilt other than some correlation/causation arguments, ala the media has labelled this Deflategate and Mcnally called himself the Deflator in an email, therefore there must have been a Tom Brady led conspiracy to give Tom Brady an illegal advantage that cheated everyone else out of their share of success.



This is gibberish. You're trying too hard to convince me of your righteous indignation.

[feldspar]

Spartacus, buddy...have you read the report yet?

Answer.

If not, then perhaps you should.

[CommissarSpartacus]

So you're trying to prove a point to the very people you know are incapable of hearing it? And you think this makes sense?

Absolutely. Otherwise one is just preaching to the converted.

[CommissarSpartacus]

They really don't. You've been trying to make that point for 5 months, and it hasn't made a lick of sense to me in that entire time.

So, by your own standard, it makes no sense to talk to you about this, correct?

Or should I make an attempt to remind you that the equipment manager's email said it was common knowledge around the league, not that he'd "systematically noticed" (whatever that is) under-inflated balls in the games with the Patriots?

We'll see from your reply whether you wish to discuss it, or argue with me, thus rendering the attempt nonsensical...

[CommissarSpartacus]

This is gibberish. You're trying too hard to convince me of your righteous indignation.

Only gibberish to those who refuse to think about it.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Spartacus, buddy...have you read the report yet?

Answer.

If not, then perhaps you should.

Why? Is it required? Have you read it?

[feldspar]

Why? Is it required? Have you read it?

If you want to go around telling everyone what's what, then yeah, it's definitely required to read the report. Otherwise, you're talking out of your ass. If you want to discredit something you haven't read, then you are talking out of you ass.

I've read the majority of the report and skimmed through the rest, since you asked.

Now return the favor...have you read the report?

[ICRockets]

So, by your own standard, it makes no sense to talk to you about this, correct?

Or should I make an attempt to remind you that the equipment manager's email said it was common knowledge around the league, not that he'd "systematically noticed" (whatever that is) under-inflated balls in the games with the Patriots?

We'll see from your reply whether you wish to discuss it, or argue with me, thus rendering the attempt nonsensical...

I'm not "immune to logic and reason" just because I think you're wrong, but I don't think the conversation can really go anywhere if you're going to continue to ignore the fact that McNally and Jastremski texted each other about deflating the balls in the middle of the season.

You seem to want to argue both sides of this, and it's a little baffling what your ultimate point is. In one post you insist that the Patriots aren't lying when they proclaim total innocence. But then you talk about how it's common knowledge around the league that they were deflating the footballs.

If you want to keep talking about this, I'd appreciate it if you stop being coy and tell me exactly what it is you believe happened. What point are you trying to make by harping on Ryan Grigson's role?

[CommissarSpartacus]

If you want to go around telling everyone what's what, then yeah, it's definitely required to read the report.

And yet you haven't read it yourself, have you? But that's okay, I haven't critici2ed anyone for not reading the report.

One doesn't need to read the Bible, the Torah or the Koran from front to back to have an intelligent opinion about religion.

And if you'll notice, no one has caught me in any errors vis a vis what the report says, have they?

You're floundering dude, desperately searching for some sort of avenue of attack and failing miserably.

But if you want to tell us all how I've made crucial mistakes because I haven't subjected myself to 300 odd pages of baloney, then be my guest.

See how well you do.

[coastal]

I keep arguing and people keep arguing with me and I'm winning!

im the northern knight of truth and stfu.

[Famous Amos]

I just read a terrific book by Ken Follett called the Pillars of the Earth. It's about the building of the Kingsbridge Cathedral in the late 1100s and the plot is all about various conspiracies by the rich and powerful to ruin and besmirch the reputations of good hearted people for their own benefit.

Have you read it?

It was a very good book. tried to watch the miniseries but I couldnt get into it. I loved the in depth detail of the architecture of the cathedral and the process of constructing a project that takes a generation or two to complete. I havent read it in a while, but I enjoyed the dynamics of the peasant family. Despite it's length, its a very accessible novel. I am tempted to check out the next book in the series.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I'm not "immune to logic and reason" just because I think you're wrong, but I don't think the conversation can really go anywhere if you're going to continue to ignore the fact that McNally and Jastremski texted each other about deflating the balls in the middle of the season.

Huh? The "deflator" email was sent on May 14, 2014. What other emails are you talking about?


You seem to want to argue both sides of this, and it's a little baffling what your ultimate point is.

My point so far is the accusations against Brady are far from conclusively proved and that it's not Brady's responsibility to prove himself innocent in the face of what so far seems to be a very weak case. Like I said, if an accusation is all that's required to force people to fight for there lives, then we're all in deep trouble.


In one post you insist that the Patriots aren't lying when they proclaim total innocence.

I don't remember insisting any such thing. I'm not God and all-knowing. But I don't have to agree the Pats are lying because others insist they are and I don't have to insist the Pats are totally innocent to make the point they haven't been proved guilty of what they are accused of. For example, they could be guilty of deflating the balls, but only to make sure they are at the legal lower limit, as I have read that Brady in the past has been aggravated by balls delivered by the refs in the range of 16.0 psi.

The fact that before the Colts game, the refs used two gauges with different readings and didn't bother to log the pressures from each gauge shows how cavalierly the league treated the issue.

Plus, to take for granted that McNally could have deflated the balls in the washroom while ignoring the possibility the Colts could have let some air out on their sideline seems utterly biased to me. The Colts were obviously trying to throw off the Pats, so they have motive just as the Pats have motive, and if you ignore it, your agenda is clear.


But then you talk about how it's common knowledge around the league that they were deflating the footballs.

I didn't say that it was common knowledge around the league, I said that's what the Colts equipment manager said in his email to Grigson the week before the game. See, this is why I tear my hair out talking about this to people that should know better. You claim you are not immune to logic and reason. Let's see.

If the EM sends an email to Grigson in the week before the game saying it's common knowledge, how can he claim it's common knowledge around the league when ostensibly, HE JUST LEARNED ABOUT IT? The only way he could do that is if SOMEONE ELSE told him it was common knowledge around the league, but the EM didn't say that. He implied that it was HIS JUDGMENT that it was common knowledge. So, it's more than possible, the EM is lying.nd if it was common knowledge, is it believable that Grigson didn't know anything about it until he read the email? I doubt that as well. So, that's two lies. Now, apparently, Grigson did NOTHING about this information until, conveniently, a Pats ball falls into the hands of the Colts sideline where a Colts employee (who can put his hands on a pin as easy as enyone else), NOT A PLAYER, supposedly says to himself, "This ball is soft". He then reports it to his superior who reports it to Grigson who decides to make a big deal of it during the game, to the point that NFL officials are coming up to the Pats and telling them "Boy, are you guys in big ****ing trouble!". DURING THE GAME. And who was that official? Just a guy who'd worked for the Jets for 20 years.


If you want to keep talking about this, I'd appreciate it if you stop being coy and tell me exactly what it is you believe happened. What point are you trying to make by harping on Ryan Grigson's role?

Excuse me, but insisting I know things for sure (like the haters) when I don't isn't being coy, it's being realistic and objective, but I'll give you a possible scenario if you wish.

In 2006, Brady and Manning go to the rules commitee and petition them to allow the qbs to prepare their own game balls. It goes through with, among other regs, the pressure parameters. If Brady knew at that time he liked the balls softer than that, why didn't he ask the league to adjust them at the same time? It's all in the service of improving qb play, so why not? Probably because he was happy with the lower limit.

Now, through the ensuing years, the refs got increasinly sloppy with filling the balls with air and over-filling them. So, since there was no procedure to appeal to the refs before kickoff to check the pressures, it's possible Brady *****ed to his boys about it and his boys promised to make sure they were at the lower limit when the game started. Tom, in return, did some small favors for his boys in appreciation.

So, through the years it became known around the league that Brady, and maybe Manning and others from the 20 were making sure themselves that the balls were at the lower limit. Common knowledge and no intention to break the rules, just correcting a problem. Everyone knew about it, including Grigson.

So, the big game approaches and Grigson fears that Brady's domination of his team will continue, so he thinks to himself, what can I do to give my team an edge? So, he comes up with this bright idea to sting Brady DURING the game about the ball pressure. Grigson knows that Mike Kensil hates the Pats, so he arranges the sting with him and get's his EM to send him the email the week before the game to establish that he knew NOTHING about this until he read the email.

So, between Grigson, the equipment manager, Kensil and maybe Vincent, they have everyone they need to pull this off.

They know the Deflator will ensure the Pats balls are at the lower limit before they're taken outside, and because of the temp will be below at halftime, so all they need is to get their hands on one ball on the sidelines to start the ball rolling.

Jackson brings the ball over, gives it to the equipment guys, they deflate it further and then Grigson swings into action and the rest is history. Goodell didn't even need to be in the loop, but the last thing he needs is for his own boys to be fingered, so he has to go along with it if he's smart enough to figure it out, and if he isn't, so much the better.


Anyway, when you're considering this, please remember that the NFL is accusing Tom Brady and his boys of being conspirators, so you should have no objections if I suggest that other people could be conspirators as well.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I keep arguing and people keep arguing with me and I'm winning!

im the northern knight of truth and stfu.

Don't be bitter.

[Famous Amos]

Personally, I hadnt given this controversy much thought after the super bowl because I thought it was blown out of proportion. Now that it is in the news and it has been for a few weeks, its hard not to think about it. Add in the rivalry between two AFCE teams and the player at the forefront of the controversy being the guy who has influenced at least two rule changed (QBs allowed to handle the balls before the game starts, and the tuck rule) and he has had a history of crying to the refs when things dont go his way, you're asking a lot of Bills fans not to become engaged in this controversy.

I hate that the suffix -gate keeps getting added to controversies. It seems lazy and unimaginative.

Can we compare this cheating to other sports' cheating controversies? Corked bats in baseball, pine tar on hat brims to doctor baseballs, illegally curved sticks, vaseline on defensive players jerseys in football?

With Brady's cheating, he wasn't directly responsible for the ball deflation, he had underlings do his dirty work for him. It was mostly done behind the scenes. And he didn't admit to it when he was caught. It's not as cut and dry as a pitcher getting caught doctoring baseballs or George Brett's bat being inspected for having pine tar too high up on his baseball bat.

I'm enjoying the schadenfreude, I do think it has been blown out of proportion but I appreciate the league's steadfastness in this to maintain the integrity of the game because if they let this slide, then teams and players will continue to push the envelope and see how much they could get away with. It's a slippery slope.

[Famous Amos]

Brady being a highly visible pro should know that he's under the microscope at all times, being watched by everyone and every move he makes being scrutinized. That comes with fame and fortune. As a result, he should and has been kept to the highest of standards and because hes so talented he shouldnt cheat to gain competitive advantages in the first place. So there should be no surprise that when an athlete as high of caliber as Tom Brady gets busted for cheating, that it becomes a big deal.

On the flipside, nobody cares about marginal players cheating because any competitive advantage gained from however they cheated has much less of an impact on the game as someone who is well known and famous. That doesnt make it right to think that way though. It seems like every year some ass hole triple A talented ball player gets busted for PEDS, gets and accepts his punishment and the collective fan base shrugs and moves on. But when Jason Giambri or Alex Rodriguez gets in trouble for juicing, people notice and have hot takes because those guys made a much greater impact on the game whether its through winning, stats or whatever. Because they juiced during the times they played well then fans feel cheated themselves.

[Famous Amos]

Now, through the ensuing years, the refs got increasinly sloppy with filling the balls with air and over-filling them. So, since there was no procedure to appeal to the refs before kickoff to check the pressures, it's possible Brady *****ed to his boys about it and his boys promised to make sure they were at the lower limit when the game started. Tom, in return, did some small favors for his boys in appreciation.

Shiva, are you inferring that the refs got sloppy over the years and over filled balls or is this a known fact?

[CommissarSpartacus]

It was a very good book. tried to watch the miniseries but I couldnt get into it. I loved the in depth detail of the architecture of the cathedral and the process of constructing a project that takes a generation or two to complete. I havent read it in a while, but I enjoyed the dynamics of the peasant family. Despite it's length, its a very accessible novel. I am tempted to check out the next book in the series.

The point being that the greedy and powerful and envious and hate filled (Goodell, Grigson, Kensil and their toadies) will conspire to **** over the people who are REALLY responsible (Brady, Belichick, Kraft) for the beauty and artistry and majesty and popularity of their product.

It happens over and over again through history...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Shiva, are you inferring that the refs got sloppy over the years and over filled balls or is this a known fact?

I read the story about Brady's reaction to over-filled balls, but I can't remember exactly where because I didn't think it was note-worthy at the time.

But, seeing how sloppy they were with the game in question, it's not hard to believe.

I'm sure they thought it was a non issue and may have even gotten sloppy because they knew the teams were going to adjust them anyway.

[ICRockets]

Huh? The "deflator" email was sent on May 14, 2014. What other emails are you talking about?



There were no emails. They were text messages, and if you had read the report you'd know what I was talking about. So, to answer your previous question, YES it clearly IS important that you read it for us to continue this conversation. Start on page 74 and familiarize yourself with the text messages.

[ICRockets]

In 2006, Brady and Manning go to the rules commitee and petition them to allow the qbs to prepare their own game balls. It goes through with, among other regs, the pressure parameters. If Brady knew at that time he liked the balls softer than that, why didn't he ask the league to adjust them at the same time? It's all in the service of improving qb play, so why not? Probably because he was happy with the lower limit.



Or, maybe it's just science. Wilson says that their footballs are generally inflated to 13 PSI. So a range from 12.5 to 13.5 just makes sense with what the actual ball manufacturer claims to be the ideal weight of their product. Again, if you'd stop trying so hard this conversation would make you look a lot less stupid.

[ICRockets]

So, the big game approaches and Grigson fears that Brady's domination of his team will continue, so he thinks to himself, what can I do to give my team an edge? So, he comes up with this bright idea to sting Brady DURING the game about the ball pressure. Grigson knows that Mike Kensil hates the Pats, so he arranges the sting with him and get's his EM to send him the email the week before the game to establish that he knew NOTHING about this until he read the email.

So, between Grigson, the equipment manager, Kensil and maybe Vincent, they have everyone they need to pull this off.

They know the Deflator will ensure the Pats balls are at the lower limit before they're taken outside, and because of the temp will be below at halftime, so all they need is to get their hands on one ball on the sidelines to start the ball rolling.

Jackson brings the ball over, gives it to the equipment guys, they deflate it further and then Grigson swings into action and the rest is history. Goodell didn't even need to be in the loop, but the last thing he needs is for his own boys to be fingered, so he has to go along with it if he's smart enough to figure it out, and if he isn't, so much the better.


Anyway, when you're considering this, please remember that the NFL is accusing Tom Brady and his boys of being conspirators, so you should have no objections if I suggest that other people could be conspirators as well.

Your conspiracy theory completely ignores the fact that the Wells Report provides pretty strong evidence that the Patriots had been doing this for MUCH LONGER than JUST the AFC Championship Game. That's where your entire argument falls apart, is you keep harping on a single game for a systemic infraction. Again, read the texts. It's blatantly obvious that Jastremski and McNally discuss deflating the balls for the Chicago Bears game, after the Jets game when Brady complained about the balls being heavy.

Specifically, McNally was annoyed by Brady's complaints. So when Jastremski says "I can't wait to give you your needle this week :)" McNally responds "it better come with a pump attached, because the only thing deflating this week is Tom's passer rating."

[Joe Fo Sho]

Specifically, McNally was annoyed by Brady's complaints. So when Jastremski says "I can't wait to give you your needle this week :)" McNally responds "it better come with a pump attached, because the only thing deflating this week is Tom's passer rating."

McNally needed the needle to deflate his weight. He must have one of those stomach wraps that prevents him from eating. He needed the needle and the pump to inflate the wrap to make his stomach smaller. In doing that, he'll lose more weight because he can't eat as much. The Pats equipment guys have a pool going to see who will lose the most amount of weight, everyone was betting on it. Brady didn't bet on McNally and it makes him sick, it's all he can think about. When Tom gets distressed like that, historically his passer rating goes down. That's what McNally was talking about.

Well, either that or he was deflating footballs. Hard saying not knowing.

[CommissarSpartacus]

There were no emails. They were text messages...

:rofl:

Really? THAT'S your complaint?

Well, since you obviously feel the distinction is significant, could you please explain to us all what the difference is?

Thanks...

[CommissarSpartacus]

Or, maybe it's just science. Wilson says that their footballs are generally inflated to 13 PSI. So a range from 12.5 to 13.5 just makes sense with what the actual ball manufacturer claims to be the ideal weight of their product. Again, if you'd stop trying so hard this conversation would make you look a lot less stupid.

The ideal WEIGHT of their product? Huh? Are you sure you understand what pounds per square inch means? It has nothing to do with weight, it's a measurement of pressure. The extra air required to increase the psi by one pound is undetectable by humans. You didn't think an extra psi made the ball a pound heavier, did you?

:rofl:

If so, I'd be careful slinging around the stupid smack if I were you.

[ICRockets]

The ideal WEIGHT of their product?

:rofl:

Really? THAT'S your complaint?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Your conspiracy theory completely ignores the fact that the Wells Report provides pretty strong evidence that the Patriots had been doing this for MUCH LONGER than JUST the AFC Championship Game. That's where your entire argument falls apart, is you keep harping on a single game for a systemic infraction. Again, read the texts. It's blatantly obvious that Jastremski and McNally discuss deflating the balls for the Chicago Bears game, after the Jets game when Brady complained about the balls being heavy.

Specifically, McNally was annoyed by Brady's complaints. So when Jastremski says "I can't wait to give you your needle this week :)" McNally responds "it better come with a pump attached, because the only thing deflating this week is Tom's passer rating."

I already addressed this. Did you not read it? Maybe you were too busy yelling.

I said that at some time in the past Brady was *****ing about the refs being sloppy and over inflating the balls. That's what he means when he says' they're "heavy", and it was the boys who had to make sure they weren't. But no where is it ever implied that Brady directed them to deflate the balls under the limit. Correct?

And the behavior of the refs on game day backs up the charge that the refs were sloppy with the chore, what with no log and two gauges with different readings.

Really dude, you're going completely ****ing overboard, like Lindsey Graham thinking about Monica and Clinton's penis. Remember how Republicans would claim it wasn't the sex, it was the lying? Did you believe them? So, why should I believe you when you're behaving in exactly the same fashion?

This is a mountain in a molehill that has nothing to do with right and wrong and everything to do with jealousy and envy.

[CommissarSpartacus]

McNally needed the needle to deflate his weight. He must have one of those stomach wraps that prevents him from eating. He needed the needle and the pump to inflate the wrap to make his stomach smaller. In doing that, he'll lose more weight because he can't eat as much. The Pats equipment guys have a pool going to see who will lose the most amount of weight, everyone was betting on it. Brady didn't bet on McNally and it makes him sick, it's all he can think about. When Tom gets distressed like that, historically his passer rating goes down. That's what McNally was talking about.

Well, either that or he was deflating footballs. Hard saying not knowing.

Gee, imagine the idea of football team shleppers possessing air pressure needles?

Do you think the Colts had some too!

They're pretty rare!

[CommissarSpartacus]

:rofl:

Really? THAT'S your complaint?

:rofl:

Don't talk to me about science and footballs ever again.

You're making us arts majors look bad in front of the engineers.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Gee, imagine the idea of football team shleppers possessing air pressure needles?

Do you think the Colts had some too!

They're pretty rare!

Please explain what these two guys meant.


So when Jastremski says "I can't wait to give you your needle this week :)" McNally responds "it better come with a pump attached, because the only thing deflating this week is Tom's passer rating."

[CommissarSpartacus]

Please explain what these two guys meant.

I already explained it. It was their job to make sure the careless part-time refs didn't overinflate the balls.

They ****ed up, Brady *****ed, so they made a joke about over-inflating the balls to **** him up.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Here's a question for the haters...

M & J are sitting at home, suspended, with ruined reputations and no income,

If the truth is that Brady DID enter into a conspiracy with these two hoodlums to defraud the whole country, WHY DON'T THEY JUST RAT HIM OUT?

How much would the National enquirer pay for a headline that read "Inside Scoop - "I let the air out of Tom Brady's balls!"?

As long as they moved out of New England, they'd never have to buy another drink in their lives.

Woody Johnson wood write them a $10,000,000 check as fast as you can say Spygate.

They don't owe the NFL anything.

So, WHY don't they throw Tom under the bus?

[better days]

Here's a question for the haters...

M & J are sitting at home, suspended, with ruined reputations and no income,

If the truth is that Brady DID enter into a conspiracy with these two hoodlums to defraud the whole country, WHY DON'T THEY JUST RAT HIM OUT?

How much would the National enquirer pay for a headline that read "Inside Scoop - "I let the air out of Tom Brady's balls!"?

As long as they moved out of New England, they'd never have to buy another drink in their lives.

Woody Johnson wood write them a $10,000,000 check as fast as you can say Spygate.

They don't owe the NFL anything.

So, WHY don't they throw Tom under the bus?

They no doubt signed a contract that will not let them discuss ANYTHING about their time with the Pats* or be they will be sued for every penny they will ever possess.

[ICRockets]

Here's a question for the haters...

M & J are sitting at home, suspended, with ruined reputations and no income,

If the truth is that Brady DID enter into a conspiracy with these two hoodlums to defraud the whole country, WHY DON'T THEY JUST RAT HIM OUT?

How much would the National enquirer pay for a headline that read "Inside Scoop - "I let the air out of Tom Brady's balls!"?

As long as they moved out of New England, they'd never have to buy another drink in their lives.

Woody Johnson wood write them a $10,000,000 check as fast as you can say Spygate.

They don't owe the NFL anything.

So, WHY don't they throw Tom under the bus?
Because they're patriots fans, and throwing Tom under the bus destroys the team's legacy permanently.

[CommissarSpartacus]

They no doubt signed a contract that will not let them discuss ANYTHING about their time with the Pats* or be they will be sued for every penny they will ever possess.

Sued for what? Telling the truth?

[ICRockets]

I already explained it. It was their job to make sure the careless part-time refs didn't overinflate the balls.

They ****ed up, Brady *****ed, so they made a joke about over-inflating the balls to **** him up.

So why isn't that the official story from the team? Why have they twisted themselves in knots to insist no deflation occurred if the purpose of the deflation was to uphold the letter of the law?

- - - Updated - - -


Sued for what? Telling the truth?

Yes. You're familiar with the concept of a non-disclosure agreement, right?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Because they're patriots fans, and throwing Tom under the bus destroys the team's legacy permanently.

What's that to them when they can't pay the rent?

The Patriots' legacy vs millions of dollars...

Hmmmmmm.

[better days]

Sued for what? Telling the truth?

It is called a non-disclosure clause.

But you SHOULD KNOW about that.

[ICRockets]

What's that to them when they can't pay the rent?

The Patriots' legacy vs millions of dollars...

Hmmmmmm.

Got it. You can't shut up about how sports makes people irrational when it benefits your argument, but when it hurts you it's UNFATHOMABLE that the heart/gut could win out.

[CommissarSpartacus]

So why isn't that the official story from the team? Why have they twisted themselves in knots to insist no deflation occurred if the purpose of the deflation was to uphold the letter of the law?

1. Please quote me the official story from the team. You and I might have different ideas of what it said.

2. I haven't seen the part where they twist themselves into knots to insist no deflation occurred. Of course deflation occurred.

3. It's not their job to make a prosecutors case.


Yes. You're familiar with the concept of a non-disclosure agreement, right?

Yes. Is there one in place? If so, what does it stipulate? I don't think a non-disclosure agreement means you can be sued by the perpetrator of a crime you revealed.

[CommissarSpartacus]

It is called a non-disclosure clause.

But you SHOULD KNOW about that.

Is there a non-disclosure clause? Does it forbid them revealing criminal behavior?

[ICRockets]

1. Please quote me the official story from the team. You and I might have different ideas of what it said.

2. I haven't seen the part where they twist themselves into knots to insist no deflation occurred. Of course deflation occurred.

3. It's not their job to make a prosecutors case.



Yes. Is there one in place? If so, what does it stipulate? I don't think a non-disclosure agreement means you can be sued by the perpetrator of a crime you revealed.

What crime was perpetrated? It's not a crime to deflate footballs because the NFL asks you not to. It's against league rules, but it's not a crime. Breach of contract IS a crime, however.

- - - Updated - - -


Is there a non-disclosure clause? Does it forbid them revealing criminal behavior?

There was no criminal behavior, you prima donna

[CommissarSpartacus]

Got it. You can't shut up about how sports makes people irrational when it benefits your argument, but when it hurts you it's UNFATHOMABLE that the heart/gut could win out.

Boo hoo hoo. I'm such a cynic.

Now, once again, the "legacy" of a billion dollar business that belongs to someone else vs millions of dollars...

Hmmmm.

[ICRockets]

Boo hoo hoo. I'm such a cynic.

Now, once again, the "legacy" of a billion dollar business that belongs to someone else vs millions of dollars...

Hmmmm.

What millions? The ones you magically decided exist?

[CommissarSpartacus]

What crime was perpetrated? It's not a crime to deflate footballs because the NFL asks you not to. It's against league rules, but it's not a crime. Breach of contract IS a crime, however.

Oh, now we're going to quibble over metaphors? Really? Do I have to dumb it down for you too? Okay.

READ...MY...LIPS...

Is there a non-disclosure agreement?


There was no criminal behavior, you prima donna

Did I say there was, numbnuts?

[CommissarSpartacus]

What millions? The ones you magically decided exist?

How much could you crowd-source if you could guarantee the head of Tom Brady?

[better days]

Is there a non-disclosure clause? Does it forbid them revealing criminal behavior?

I have not read their contract, but I would imagine it would prevent them from discussing anything that happened while under contract to that CHEATING team.

And while deflating footballs is against NFL rules, there is no LAW about that, so it is not criminal behavior.

[ICRockets]

I didn't notice this gem earlier, but you said the officials have been the ones filling the balls, and that is categorically untrue.

[Bill Cody]

I didn't notice this gem earlier, but you said the officials have been the ones filling the balls, and that is categorically untrue.

They're supposed to add air to any balls tested that are below the minimum. That's kind of the point of the test.

[ICRockets]

The officials do it themselves? You're sure they don't give them back to the team to put the right amount of air in?

[Bill Cody]

The officials do it themselves? You're sure they don't give them back to the team to put the right amount of air in?

It doesn't appear that way no. And Bill Bellichick said as much at one of his press conferences. And the whole deflating thing in my opinion probably came down to the fact that Brady did not trust the refs to leave the footballs he prepared alone. Check out this text exchange from the Wells report:

The closest Jastremski or McNally comes to saying Brady is in on any deflation is when Jastremski texts the following:
Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done…
Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though…
Jastremski: I checked some of the balls this morn… The refs (expletive) us…a few of then were at almost 16
Jastremski: They didnt recheck then after they put air in them
This was after the Patriots’ Week 7 win over the New York Jets, and it actually raises more questions than answers.
If McNally’s stress was to deflate footballs, then why were they at 16 PSI the next morning? Apparently, McNally wasn’t doing his job very well.
Why were the footballs at 16 PSI at all? The Patriots must have submitted footballs under 12.5, the officials must have refilled them, and they refilled them way too much without checking the level, proving no one really cared about football inflation or deflation as recently as October.

[Bill Cody]

And this is also in the report:

McNally also sends these texts to his fiancée that week:
Jastremski: Ugh…Tom was right.
Jastremski: I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs… They were like 16. Felt like bricks

This is actually the only text in which Brady’s desired PSI is revealed, and it’s not 12.5 or lower. McNally told the officials Brady wanted the footballs inflated to 12.5. A common theme in Jastremski and McNally’s texts is Brady complaining about the PSI level in footballs, but it all seems to be related to the Jets game, when they were overfilled by 3.5 PSI.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I have not read their contract, but I would imagine it would prevent them from discussing anything that happened while under contract to that CHEATING team.


Is there, or is there NOT a non-disclosure agreement?

Don't imagine, tell me what you know.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I didn't notice this gem earlier, but you said the officials have been the ones filling the balls, and that is categorically untrue.

Oh god, I can smell another picayune quibble coming on.

What is it, the officials don't FILL the balls per se, they just check them and refill them if necessary?

Again, a totally irrelevant distinction...

[CommissarSpartacus]

... And the whole deflating thing in my opinion probably came down to the fact that Brady did not trust the refs to leave the footballs he prepared alone.

My opinion as well.

[Bill Cody]

If you take the ref Walt Coleman's word for what gauge he used to test the Patriots footballs before the game (the Wells report didn't) and you factor in that at halftime the Colts balls were inside the locker room for over 10 minutes before their 4 balls were tested it's not at all clear the Patriots footballs were deflated at all.

Anderson said he recalls using the “logo” gauge, which reads higher than the non-logo gauge. The Wells Report ignored Anderson’s recollection and chose to assume he used the non-logo gauge because it suited their data better.
If the logo gauge was used before the AFC Championship Game, then the Patriots’ footballs averaged 11.48 PSI at halftime, which is well within the level a football can drop according to the Ideal Gas Law during the AFC Championship Game. If the non-logo gauge was used, then it looks far more damning for the Patriots. That’s the issue, though. No one knows which gauge was used, and it’s entirely possible Anderson used both gauges before the game to measure PSI for both teams and reduce pressure in the Patriots’ footballs.
If the NFL wants footballs to fall within a 1 PSI range, then it can’t use gauges that range considerably from one another.
— Colts footballs were tested after Patriots footballs
The footballs were brought inside the officials locker room at halftime, and 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs were tested. The Patriots footballs were tested, and possibly refilled, before the officials tested the Colts footballs. The officials were in the locker room for 13-and-a-half minutes, and based on data collected in the Wells Report, a cold, damp football can raise 0.7 PSI in 13 minutes. That amount of time would at least partially explain why the Patriots’ footballs deflated more than the Colts’ footballs.
Only testing four Colts footballs — because of time restraints — is another issue because of small sample size. The Colts footballs were supposed to serve as a “control,” but that idea was destroyed when the footballs weren’t tested simultaneously, and when the NFL decided to test just four footballs from Indianapolis.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And this is also in the report:

McNally also sends these texts to his fiancée that week:
Jastremski: Ugh…Tom was right.
Jastremski: I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs… They were like 16. Felt like bricks

This is actually the only text in which Brady’s desired PSI is revealed, and it’s not 12.5 or lower. McNally told the officials Brady wanted the footballs inflated to 12.5. A common theme in Jastremski and McNally’s texts is Brady complaining about the PSI level in footballs, but it all seems to be related to the Jets game, when they were overfilled by 3.5 PSI.

What is stopping Tom from noticing the balls were over filled and informing the refs of their mistake? Seems like you could remedy this situation extremely quickly during pre-game warmups. Especially since Tom can notice the difference between 12.5 and 13.5 psi, even though he claims he wouldn't notice. There just seems like ways to fix this problem that don't violate any rules.

[Bill Cody]

What is stopping Tom from noticing the balls were over filled and informing the refs of their mistake? Seems like you could remedy this situation extremely quickly during pre-game warmups. Especially since Tom can notice the difference between 12.5 and 13.5 psi, even though he claims he wouldn't notice. There just seems like ways to fix this problem that don't violate any rules.

Do the QB's warm up with game balls? I doubt it.

[ICRockets]

Do the QB's warm up with game balls? I doubt it.

I'm pretty sure they do. They use them all week, as I understand it.

[CommissarSpartacus]

BTW, I don't know if this has been posted so far but it bears reposting, especially for the guy who went to Eli Manning for back up.

A VERY extensive article on the VERY extensive work that goes into being one of Eli Manning's footballs...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sports/football/eli-mannings-footballs-are-months-in-making.html?_r=0

Eli Manning’s Footballs Are Months in Making

By BILL PENNINGTONNOV. 23, 2013

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. — When Eli Manning drops back to throw his first pass Sunday against the Dallas Cowboys, the football in his hands will be as familiar as an old friend.

That is because the ball has been scoured, scrubbed, soaked and seasoned, a breaking-in process that takes months and ensures that every ball used by the Giants in a game will meet Manning’s exact preferences. The leather will have been softened, the grip enhanced and the overall feel painstakingly assessed.

There are no new balls thrown around in an N.F.L. game. A new ball, despised for its sheen and waxy gloss, is as popular as a late hit.

For every N.F.L. game, each team has 12 to 20 balls that it has meticulously groomed and prepared according to the needs of its starting quarterback. The balls, brushed and primed using various obvious and semisecret techniques, bear the team logo and are switched out from sideline to sideline depending on which team is on offense.

That means that from series to series, the ball in play can feel wholly different, but each team’s quarterback always has a ball prepped by his equipment staff the way he likes it.

Nothing is left to chance. The Giants, for example, have a special set of a dozen pregame practice balls so Manning can warm up with footballs that will feel exactly the same as the game balls, which are inspected and approved by the game officials before play starts.

In all, there are always about 36 specially marked Eli Manning balls sequestered and protected in four large ball bags. If a coach looking for a ball at practice should unwittingly approach one of the bags, the team’s equipment director, Joe Skiba, will pounce: “Get away, those are Eli’s game balls.”

Skiba added: “No one is allowed to touch those balls. They’re precious jewels. Too much work has gone into them.”

When the Giants play away games, the balls are kept in a special trunk, although it is not labeled “Game Balls.” That might lead to sabotage.

There are all kinds of peculiar rituals and routines before an N.F.L. game — carried out by pregame pad inspectors, the uniform police, sideline communications system overseers — but perhaps no piece of the game within the game receives as much attention as the football.

In the case of the Giants, preparing the game balls used from September to December begins in summer training camp.

The Giants will start with six to seven dozen new footballs.

...more...

[Joe Fo Sho]

Do the QB's warm up with game balls? I doubt it.

I guess I don't know. Why wouldn't they be allowed to? I feel like that wouldn't be a very big deal.

Again, this would all be solved by having the refs have complete control over the footballs.

[Joe Fo Sho]

BTW, I don't know if this has been posted so far but it bears reposting, especially for the guy who went to Eli Manning for back up.

A VERY extensive article on the VERY extensive work that goes into being one of Eli Manning's footballs...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/sports/football/eli-mannings-footballs-are-months-in-making.html?_r=0

Eli Manning’s Footballs Are Months in Making

By BILL PENNINGTONNOV. 23, 2013

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. — When Eli Manning drops back to throw his first pass Sunday against the Dallas Cowboys, the football in his hands will be as familiar as an old friend.

That is because the ball has been scoured, scrubbed, soaked and seasoned, a breaking-in process that takes months and ensures that every ball used by the Giants in a game will meet Manning’s exact preferences. The leather will have been softened, the grip enhanced and the overall feel painstakingly assessed.

There are no new balls thrown around in an N.F.L. game. A new ball, despised for its sheen and waxy gloss, is as popular as a late hit.

For every N.F.L. game, each team has 12 to 20 balls that it has meticulously groomed and prepared according to the needs of its starting quarterback. The balls, brushed and primed using various obvious and semisecret techniques, bear the team logo and are switched out from sideline to sideline depending on which team is on offense.

That means that from series to series, the ball in play can feel wholly different, but each team’s quarterback always has a ball prepped by his equipment staff the way he likes it.

Nothing is left to chance. The Giants, for example, have a special set of a dozen pregame practice balls so Manning can warm up with footballs that will feel exactly the same as the game balls, which are inspected and approved by the game officials before play starts.

In all, there are always about 36 specially marked Eli Manning balls sequestered and protected in four large ball bags. If a coach looking for a ball at practice should unwittingly approach one of the bags, the team’s equipment director, Joe Skiba, will pounce: “Get away, those are Eli’s game balls.”

Skiba added: “No one is allowed to touch those balls. They’re precious jewels. Too much work has gone into them.”

When the Giants play away games, the balls are kept in a special trunk, although it is not labeled “Game Balls.” That might lead to sabotage.

There are all kinds of peculiar rituals and routines before an N.F.L. game — carried out by pregame pad inspectors, the uniform police, sideline communications system overseers — but perhaps no piece of the game within the game receives as much attention as the football.

In the case of the Giants, preparing the game balls used from September to December begins in summer training camp.

The Giants will start with six to seven dozen new footballs.

...more...

I bet his footballs are within spec on gameday though.

[Strongman]

What is stopping Tom from noticing the balls were over filled and informing the refs of their mistake? Seems like you could remedy this situation extremely quickly during pre-game warmups. Especially since Tom can notice the difference between 12.5 and 13.5 psi, even though he claims he wouldn't notice. There just seems like ways to fix this problem that don't violate any rules.

The day after Brady used a 16-psi ball in the Jets game:

McNally: "Tom sucks…im going to make that next ball a f—in balDemocrat." (Oct. 17, 2014)
Jastremski: "Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done…" (Oct. 17, 2014)
McNally: "16 is nothing… wait till next Sunday" (Oct. 17, 2014)

It sounds like McNally was unable to deflate at least one of the balls used in the Jets game. It doesn't sound like McNally inflated the ball in the Jets game, but clearly he is threatening to inflate balls in the future because he is mad at Tom. It definitely points to a systemic program of tampering with psi, with the process being driven by Tom Brady and strong indications that the lackeys doing the dirty work are reluctant participants threatening to undermine the scheme.

The following week McNally is clearly still PO'd at Brady:

McNally: "Make sure you blow up the ball to look like a rugby ball so tom can get used to it before Sunday" (Oct. 21, 2014)

McNally: "F— tom….make sure the pump is attached to the needle…..f—in watermelons coming" (Oct. 23, 2014)

He is clearly threatening to INFLATE balls to get back at Brady. Why would McNally be mad at Tom Brady?

Seems like Brady is an ass to these underlings.

[better days]

Is there, or is there NOT a non-disclosure agreement?

Don't imagine, tell me what you know.

I know as much as you about the entire matter.

Which is to say nothing but what I have read.

But you try to pass off opinions of Pats* fans as facts.

This is not a tv cartoon or sitcom.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I know as much as you about the entire matter.

Which is to say nothing but what I have read.

But you try to pass off opinions of Pats* fans as facts.

This is not a tv cartoon or sitcom.

So, you DON'T know if there's a non-disclosure agreement.

Neither do I, nor have I read about one, so there is no reason to think that a non-disclosure agreement comes into play at all.

Thus, the question remains...

Why don't these two rat out Tom Brady if he's guilty? It seems they don't like him that much, so why should they protect him?

Could it possibly be that Brady isn't guilty and never asked the two to break any rules?

[CommissarSpartacus]

I bet his footballs are within spec on gameday though.

There is no evidence that Tom Brady's footballs weren't within spec either.

[better days]

So, you DON'T know if there's a non-disclosure agreement.

Neither do I, nor have I read about one, so there is no reason to think that a non-disclosure agreement comes into play at all.

Thus, the question remains...

Why don't these two rat out Tom Brady if he's guilty? It seems they don't like him that much, so why should they protect him?

Could it possibly be that Brady isn't guilty and never asked the two to break any rules?

Well, I did read about it on profootballtalk.com.

You can go through their archives to find it.

And non-disclosure agreements are pretty common.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Well, I did read about it on profootballtalk.com.

You can go through their archives to find it.

And non-disclosure agreements are pretty common.

Yes, they are and we'd be hearing about it regularly if there was one.

I doubt very much whether there is one other than maybe a generic one they force all their employees to sign, but I doubt it would apply.

[ICRockets]

So, you DON'T know if there's a non-disclosure agreement.

Neither do I, nor have I read about one, so there is no reason to think that a non-disclosure agreement comes into play at all.



And you accuse OTHERS of being immune to reason and logic?

"I don't know the specific details of a locker room attendant's contract, therefore there are no specific details in his contract."

Does he not get paid if you don't know his salary, too?

[CommissarSpartacus]

And you accuse OTHERS of being immune to reason and logic?

"I don't know the specific details of a locker room attendant's contract, therefore there are no specific details in his contract."

Does he not get paid if you don't know his salary, too?

Please.

A non-disclosure agreement would have a significant bearing on the issue and would be part of the discussion, IF IT WAS RELEVANT.

If you know different, then please tell us.

Otherwise, find something else to whine about.

[ICRockets]

Please.

A non-disclosure agreement would have a significant bearing on the issue and would be part of the discussion, IF IT WAS RELEVANT.

If you know different, then please tell us.

Otherwise, find something else to whine about.

It might be part of the discussion if there were a discussion about McNally and Jastremski's future, but nobody with access to information seems interested in that. So instead, the only discussion I know of that concerns them is this one, with people who simply have no way of knowing the details of their contracts.

[Joe Fo Sho]

McNally threatened to go to ESPN if he wasn't compensated for doing that thing that no one knows he did. I'm more inclined to believe that there was no NDA because of that threat.

[ICRockets]

McNally threatened to go to ESPN if he wasn't compensated for doing that thing that no one knows he did. I'm more inclined to believe that there was no NDA because of that threat.

I didn't read that as a threat, I thought he was making a joke.

[better days]

Please.

A non-disclosure agreement would have a significant bearing on the issue and would be part of the discussion, IF IT WAS RELEVANT.

If you know different, then please tell us.

Otherwise, find something else to whine about.

NOBODY can say what is in a contract unless they see the contract.

But as I said before, non-disclosure clauses are COMMON in contracts.

And you don't know that it is not there either.

[Bill Cody]

I guess I don't know. Why wouldn't they be allowed to? I feel like that wouldn't be a very big deal.

Again, this would all be solved by having the refs have complete control over the footballs.

They wouldn't be allowed to because there is a protocol and that is the QB's have control over the balls up until they turn them in the morning of the game for inspection, then the balls are delivered in a bag 10 minutes before kickoff. So no, Brady would no be warming up with game balls. Here' s an article on the subject. http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/24/expert-explains-protocol-with-nfl-game-balls/fCtQ38pBjBFXId0WJC2wpL/story.html

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/24/expert-explains-protocol-with-nfl-game-balls/fCtQ38pBjBFXId0WJC2wpL/story.html

[Bill Cody]

I'm pretty sure they do. They use them all week, as I understand it.

see above post

[Strongman]

I didn't read that as a threat, I thought he was making a joke.

I thought McNaly's texts indicated he was really upset at Brady AND McNally knew what he was doing was against the rules. His texts show he was pissed that Brady chastized him for missing a ball or two in the Jets game and was threatening to get even with him by over-inflating the balls.

[Joe Fo Sho]

They wouldn't be allowed to because there is a protocol and that is the QB's have control over the balls up until they turn them in the morning of the game for inspection, then the balls are delivered in a bag 10 minutes before kickoff. So no, Brady would no be warming up with game balls. Here' s an article on the subject. http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/24/expert-explains-protocol-with-nfl-game-balls/fCtQ38pBjBFXId0WJC2wpL/story.html

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/24/expert-explains-protocol-with-nfl-game-balls/fCtQ38pBjBFXId0WJC2wpL/story.html

Alright. I think that should be changed, then.

The problem would still be solved if the refs had complete control over the footballs.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I didn't read that as a threat, I thought he was making a joke.


I thought McNaly's texts indicated he was really upset at Brady AND McNally knew what he was doing was against the rules. His texts show he was pissed that Brady chastized him for missing a ball or two in the Jets game and was threatening to get even with him by over-inflating the balls.

This is why there needs to be a sarcasm font.

[Bill Cody]

The day after Brady used a 16-psi ball in the Jets game:

McNally: "Tom sucks…im going to make that next ball a f—in balDemocrat." (Oct. 17, 2014)
Jastremski: "Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done…" (Oct. 17, 2014)
McNally: "16 is nothing… wait till next Sunday" (Oct. 17, 2014)

It sounds like McNally was unable to deflate at least one of the balls used in the Jets game. It doesn't sound like McNally inflated the ball in the Jets game, but clearly he is threatening to inflate balls in the future because he is mad at Tom. It definitely points to a systemic program of tampering with psi, with the process being driven by Tom Brady and strong indications that the lackeys doing the dirty work are reluctant participants threatening to undermine the scheme.

The following week McNally is clearly still PO'd at Brady:

McNally: "Make sure you blow up the ball to look like a rugby ball so tom can get used to it before Sunday" (Oct. 21, 2014)

McNally: "F— tom….make sure the pump is attached to the needle…..f—in watermelons coming" (Oct. 23, 2014)

He is clearly threatening to INFLATE balls to get back at Brady. Why would McNally be mad at Tom Brady?

Seems like Brady is an ass to these underlings.

He may well be an ass when it comes to the condition of the footballs, probably most QB's are obsessed with having the right feel.

But your conclusion is not logical based on all the texts. jastremski is saying for the Jets game (the game that resulted in some overinflated balls in play) that the refs added air and didn't retest to see if the amount they added was right. McNally certainly didn't turn any balls in at 16. Brady was lashing out probably not realizing who did what to the balls. And McNally was butt sore about getting reamed. My theory from the jump was Brady was VERY particular about the footballs, liked them on the low side and probably knew the refs are very sloppy about inspecting them. So they turn them in at 12.5, maybe some a little under, knowing the refs probably just check a few and if they're close thrown the rest in the bag. It's doubtful they needed to take the extremely risky step of letting air out every week, the refs didn't check them close enough to make that necessary. But if one week the refs inflated some balls well over regulation and Brady had a cow, maybe McNally felt he needed to be more proactive.

[Strongman]

He may well be an ass when it comes to the condition of the footballs, probably most QB's are obsessed with having the right feel.

But your conclusion is not logical based on all the texts. jastremski is saying for the Jets game (the game that resulted in some overinflated balls in play) that the refs added air and didn't retest to see if the amount they added was right. McNally certainly didn't turn any balls in at 16. Brady was lashing out probably not realizing who did what to the balls. And McNally was butt sore about getting reamed. My theory from the jump was Brady was VERY particular about the footballs, liked them on the low side and probably knew the refs are very sloppy about inspecting them. So they turn them in at 12.5, maybe some a little under, knowing the refs probably just check a few and if they're close thrown the rest in the bag. It's doubtful they needed to take the extremely risky step of letting air out every week, the refs didn't check them close enough to make that necessary. But if one week the refs inflated some balls well over regulation and Brady had a cow, maybe McNally felt he needed to be more proactive.

I find it totally plausibe that the refs did overfill a few balls, but the texts indicate something more going on. For example, there's the text from Jastremski to McNally about Brady saying McNally must have been under pressure (pun intended) to get them done. Why would Brady specifically mention McNally in a conversation to Jastremski if the refs did it? McNally's job should be done after giving the balls to the refs other than carrying them out to the field. It doesn't make sense unless McNally has been routinely asked to underinflate balls after the refs inspect them.

[Bill Cody]

Alright. I think that should be changed, then.

The problem would still be solved if the refs had complete control over the footballs.

The changes needed would be very minor.

Step 1: decide on an air gauge that both teams and refs are going to use. One kind. Obviously when there is a variance of close to half a pound of PSI from two different gauges you have a problem. It really could be an important component in what set this problem in motion. Let's say Brady has McNally using the "Acme" gauge before the Jets game and he turns in the balls at what Acme says is 12.5 or maybe some a few ticks under. But the ref then tests the balls with "Gauge X" and he happens to start his testing at one of the low balls Brady was trying to slip through at say 12.2. But Gauge X has the ball at 11.8. Now the ref is pissed and he starts adding air like a banchi to NE's footballs and they end of playing with some watermelons. Why else would the ref have overinflated the balls? And we know Jastremski says in a private text last October that some balls measured at 16 the day after the Jets game. Think about it.

Step 2: Actually test the balls and make sure they're all inflated to the QB's preference within legal limits. Do you believe the refs have made it a practice to carefully test every football? I sure don't. Why? Because nobody really cared that much about the subject. They'll sure care now, don't you think?

Step 3: Don't give the balls to the teams until they're delivered to the sidelines by the refs themselves or an NFL worker. Pretty sure no one is going to try deflating balls in front of 70,000 onlookers with cameras covering every inch of an NFL stadium.

[Bill Cody]

I find it totally plausibe that the refs did overfill a few balls, but the texts indicate something more going on. For example, there's the text from Jastremski to McNally about Brady saying McNally must have been under pressure (pun intended) to get them done. Why would Brady specifically mention McNally in a conversation to Jastremski if the refs did it? McNally's job should be done after giving the balls to the refs other than carrying them out to the field. It doesn't make sense unless McNally has been routinely asked to underinflate balls after the refs inspect them.

If you're right then McNally is a truly incompetent deflator is he's leaving balls at 16. I think the scheme was a lot more nuanced then that. I think they were submitting 12 balls and half were at 12.5 and half at say 12.2. The pressure on McNally was getting the mix right the pressure right to slide some balls past a lazy ref inspecting the balls. Let out too much on too many balls and you end up with the refs making watermelons.

[ICRockets]

If you're right then McNally is a truly incompetent deflator is he's leaving balls at 16.

Really? Is that the only possibility? There's no chance that the bathroom he uses to deflate the balls was occupied and he just wasn't able to do his job that one time?

[Joe Fo Sho]

The changes needed would be very minor.

Agreed.


Step 1: decide on an air gauge that both teams and refs are going to use. One kind. Obviously when there is a variance of close to half a pound of PSI from two different gauges you have a problem. It really could be an important component in what set this problem in motion. Let's say Brady has McNally using the "Acme" gauge before the Jets game and he turns in the balls at what Acme says is 12.5 or maybe some a few ticks under. But the ref then tests the balls with "Gauge X" and he happens to start his testing at one of the low balls Brady was trying to slip through at say 12.2. But Gauge X has the ball at 11.8. Now the ref is pissed and he starts adding air like a banchi to NE's footballs and they end of playing with some watermelons. Why else would the ref have overinflated the balls? And we know Jastremski says in a private text last October that some balls measured at 16 the day after the Jets game. Think about it.

The gauges don't have to be the same make and model. They just need to be calibrated and NIST traceable. Why are the two teams using different footballs though still? That is unnecessary. Put 20 footballs in a bag and play with those.

Yes, Jastremski says his gauge measured 16...what gauge did he use? Was his gauge out of spec? Who knows.


Step 2: Actually test the balls and make sure they're all inflated to the QB's preference within legal limits. Do you believe the refs have made it a practice to carefully test every football? I sure don't. Why? Because nobody really cared that much about the subject. They'll sure care now, don't you think?

It sucks that the 'change' required is that the refs need to follow the protocol now. Some refs may have followed the protocol perfectly, some may not have cared at all. There's obviously a problem.


Step 3: Don't give the balls to the teams until they're delivered to the sidelines by the refs themselves or an NFL worker. Pretty sure no one is going to try deflating balls in front of 70,000 onlookers with cameras covering every inch of an NFL stadium.

Don't give the balls to the teams at all then. Have NFL ball boys that are neutral and travel with the refs. That only seems necessary now that someone is accused of tampering.

[Strongman]

If you're right then McNally is a truly incompetent deflator is he's leaving balls at 16. I think the scheme was a lot more nuanced then that. I think they were submitting 12 balls and half were at 12.5 and half at say 12.2. The pressure on McNally was getting the mix right the pressure right to slide some balls past a lazy ref inspecting the balls. Let out too much on too many balls and you end up with the refs making watermelons.

I disagree because of what the Well's report tells us.

On pg. 38 the report tells us "Although Jastremski occasionally receives assistance from other members of the equipment staff, he is responsible for the ball preparation process from start to finish." It goes on to say that Jastemski then prepares the balls throughout the week up and do "finishing touches about on hour before" on game day.

Also on pg. 40, it tells us "before the October 2014 game against the Jets, it had been his (Jastremski's) practice to inflate Patriots game balls to a level between 12.75 and 12.85 psi without thinking much about it, simply because, according to Jastremski, that had been the range targeted by his predecessor."

McNally's role is something else entirely (pg. 42). According to it, "McNally's primary responsibility is to prepare the Officials Locker Room for the game officials, and attend to their needs both before and during the game. McNally considers himself a “liaison” for the officials, and is there to provide or help with “whatever they need.” In this role, he is responsible for bringing items like towels, toiletries, time sheets and game programs to the locker room prior to the game. He also is responsible for bringing an air pump and pressure gauge from the Patriots equipment room to the Officials Locker Room in case they are needed by the officials during their pre-game examination of game balls. McNally explained
that he obtains the air pump and pressure gauge from the equipment room after Jastremski has finished inflating and adjusting the pressure in the Patriots game balls."



I bolded the important part. So the question is, "Why would Brady be mad at McNally and say McNally must have been under pressure to get them done?"

[Strongman]

Really? Is that the only possibility? There's no chance that the bathroom he uses to deflate the balls was occupied and he just wasn't able to do his job that one time?

Speaking of bathrooms, let's not forget McNally's story about using the bathroom during the AFCCG didn't add up.

"With respect to his decision to use the bathroom, McNally claimed that he has used the bathroom near the field entrance while in possession of the game balls many times. He said that on the day of the AFC Championship Game, he entered the bathroom, dropped the ball bags to his left, and used the urinal to his right. That bathroom, however, does not contain a urinal."

[CommissarSpartacus]

Speaking of bathrooms, let's not forget McNally's story about using the bathroom during the AFCCG didn't add up.

"With respect to his decision to use the bathroom, McNally claimed that he has used the bathroom near the field entrance while in possession of the game balls many times. He said that on the day of the AFC Championship Game, he entered the bathroom, dropped the ball bags to his left, and used the urinal to his right. That bathroom, however, does not contain a urinal."

Does it contain a cubicle with a toilet?

Why would McNally lie about the configuration of the bathroom, for god's sake?

What difference would it make to him that he'd lie?

It's not like they aren't going to check the bathroom?

This is particularly idiotic.

[ICRockets]

Does it contain a cubicle with a toilet?

Why would McNally lie about the configuration of the bathroom, for god's sake?

What difference would it make to him that he'd lie?

It's not like they aren't going to check the bathroom?

This is particularly idiotic.

Well, we both agree that he lied about what he was doing in the bathroom, don't we?

After all, it is your contention that he was in fact deflating the footballs. All we disagree about is the reason why.

So if he's going to tell one lazy lie, what's stopping him from telling a poorly concocted story about the entire ordeal?

[Bill Cody]

Really? Is that the only possibility? There's no chance that the bathroom he uses to deflate the balls was occupied and he just wasn't able to do his job that one time?

Ok let's go there. Let's say you're right and McNally was being told by Brady to deflate balls and this one week he failed at his job. It's a violation to tamper with balls period after the ref approves them, we know that. But was the goal to let air out below the 12.5 minimum? These texts from Jaz after the Jets game make that seem questionable at best.

Jastremski: Ugh…Tom was right.
Jastremski: I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs… They were like 16. Felt like bricks

Isn't it possible that Brady wanted the balls a certain way and he felt the refs were ****ing with the balls after he turned them in and he wanted his guy to "fix" them? That would still be illegal but it's a violation without a crime. Fact is there is nothing in the report that indicates Brady wanted the balls below 12.5 PSI.

[Strongman]

Ok let's go there. Let's say you're right and McNally was being told by Brady to deflate balls and this one week he failed at his job. It's a violation to tamper with balls period after the ref approves them, we know that. But was the goal to let air out below the 12.5 minimum? These texts from Jaz after the Jets game make that seem questionable at best.

Jastremski: Ugh…Tom was right.
Jastremski: I just measured some of the balls. They supposed to be 13 lbs… They were like 16. Felt like bricks

Isn't it possible that Brady wanted the balls a certain way and he felt the refs were ****ing with the balls after he turned them in and he wanted his guy to "fix" them? That would still be illegal but it's a violation without a crime. Fact is there is nothing in the report that indicates Brady wanted the balls below 12.5 PSI.


I actually do believe the refs tried to f*** them. Probably because they were constantly submitting underinflated balls and were tired of it. As for McNally, I just think McNally has done it for so long, they he simply knows to stick a needle in, count to 2 Mississippi and the balls will be close to Brady's preference pressure (which wouldn't work though, if the refs overinflated the balls to 16 psi).

[Bill Cody]

I actually do believe the refs tried to f*** them. Probably because they were constantly submitting underinflated balls and were tired of it. As for McNally, I just think McNally has done it for so long, they he simply knows to stick a needle in, count to 2 Mississippi and the balls will be close to Brady's preference pressure (which wouldn't work though, if the refs overinflated the balls to 16 psi).

So in your mind the refs diligently test all balls and the entire ref staff never said a word to the Patriots or to the league that NE was consistently submitting balls below regulation? Instead they just overinflate them? Seems doubtful but if so shame on them. I don't think NE is alone on this by the way. And if I'm right the refs would be ignoring all teams submitting over or underinflated balls. Even if NE was alone in this it would probably have been enough if the refs complained to the league that they would have taken away the QB's control of the balls. No?

[Strongman]

So in your mind the refs diligently test all balls and the entire ref staff never said a word to the Patriots or to the league that NE was consistently submitting balls below regulation? Instead they just overinflate them? Seems doubtful but if so shame on them. I don't think NE is alone on this by the way. And if I'm right the refs would be ignoring all teams submitting over or underinflated balls. Even if NE was alone in this it would probably have been enough if the refs complained to the league that they would have taken away the QB's control of the balls. No?

I think a ref was just giving them a hint that they were on to them and superinflated it to make his point. He probably didn't want to delay the game by reporting it to the NFL and figured a subtle hint like that would give Brady a message. Just a guess. Could be other things also.

[Strongman]

So given what we know (Jastremski being responsible for prepping, which includes psi level), why would Brady be mad at McNally about a ball being ~16 psi and mention that he must have been under pressure to get them done?

[CommissarSpartacus]

Well, we both agree that he lied about what he was doing in the bathroom, don't we?


Uh, no. How did you come to that conclusion? What difference does it make if he called a toilet a urinal?

Honest to god, why are you behaving in a manner that you'd condemn if it was a Republican doing it in the politics forum?

"Oh, McNally must be a shifty character prone to lying because he said he ducked into the bathroom to use the urinal. But, THE BATHRROM DOESN'T HAVE A URINAL, IT ONLY HAS A TOILET! Busted!"

:rofl:

WTF is it with you guys, that you'll abandon all pretences of intellectual honesty when you want something bad enough?

It's like America isn't really a country of adults, it's a country of physically mature children.

[ICRockets]

Uh, no. How did you come to that conclusion? What difference does it make if he called a toilet a urinal?

Honest to god, why are you behaving in a manner that you'd condemn if it was a Republican doing it in the politics forum?

"Oh, McNally must be a shifty character prone to lying because he said he ducked into the bathroom to use the urinal. But, THE BATHRROM DOESN'T HAVE A URINAL, IT ONLY HAS A TOILET! Busted!"

:rofl:

WTF is it with you guys, that you'll abandon all pretences of intellectual honesty when you want something bad enough?

It's like America isn't really a country of adults, it's a country of physically mature children.

You're missing my point. Going to the bathroom was his window of time wherein he deflated the balls. You agree he deflated the balls. Ergo, if he says he was going to the bathroom to take a piss, when we both know it was when he was deflating the balls, he was lying about the piss.

[Strongman]

You're missing my point. Going to the bathroom was his window of time wherein he deflated the balls. You agree he deflated the balls. Ergo, if he says he was going to the bathroom to take a piss, when we both know it was when he was deflating the balls, he was lying about the piss.

Yep! It demonstrates he was lying to NFL investigators and isn't a credible person. Of course there's always some stupid person who likes to argue and comes up with something like, "If he's not credible, then why should believe the texts between him and Jastrewski?" The answer for that is, just like a police investigation when people are wiretapped, they can reasonable believe they tell the truth when communicating with each other.

[Bill Cody]

I think a ref was just giving them a hint that they were on to them and superinflated it to make his point. He probably didn't want to delay the game by reporting it to the NFL and figured a subtle hint like that would give Brady a message. Just a guess. Could be other things also.

He didn't have to delay the game, just let the league know if as you feel this was a chronic issue they were aware about.

[Strongman]

True, but it's sort of pointless to speculate why a ball was around 16 psi because it could be so many things... it could be intentional misdeed by the ref or a simple mistake. There's really not enough information there about why it happened in that one case. It could be dozens of other things. Really the only thing it is useful for is showing:

1) That Brady was very aware of ball pressures during games (contrary to what he said in the press conference).
2) That it was probably rare that something like this happened because Brady made such a big deal about it.
3) Brady sent a cryptic message to Jastrewski about McNally being under stress to get the balls done.

I think #3 is the most important.

[CommissarSpartacus]

You're missing my point. Going to the bathroom was his window of time wherein he deflated the balls. You agree he deflated the balls. Ergo, if he says he was going to the bathroom to take a piss, when we both know it was when he was deflating the balls, he was lying about the piss.

1. No, I HAVEN'T agreed he deflated the balls. Treating wishes as facts gets you things like the invasion of Iraq. In case you wanna squawk, I have never said definitively that he did or didn't deflate the balls. Why would I? There has been no confession and though the evidence is flimsy at best, it's still not logical to have a definitive yes or no position.

2. Since your ergo depends on something I've never agreed to, your point is irrelevant.

3. And my point still stands that since this is his stadium, where he's been working for years, he's undoubtedly used the facilities many times, so saying urinal when he actually meant toilet is a simple mis-statement, and not a nefarious lie.

[Albany,n.y.]

Non-football fans I know never mention it. That's why they're considered non-football fans. They don't know about it nor do they care.

[ICRockets]

1. No, I HAVEN'T agreed he deflated the balls.



Of course not. While you keep twisting in the wind, I'm going to bow out gracefully from this. I had hoped you were capable of having a reasonable conversation with someone who isn't reveling in declaring the Pats "cheaters" every other sentence, but I should have known you're not willing to plant your feet long enough to make a consistent argument.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Of course not. While you keep twisting in the wind, I'm going to bow out gracefully from this. I had hoped you were capable of having a reasonable conversation with someone who isn't reveling in declaring the Pats "cheaters" every other sentence, but I should have known you're not willing to plant your feet long enough to make a consistent argument.

Translation? "You won't let me win so I'm taking my totally within spec football and going home!"

[ICRockets]

Translation? "You won't let me win so I'm taking my totally within spec football and going home!"

You never let anybody win. You drag things out and change your arguments ad nauseum until people give up. This is me giving up. There's no point in having this conversation with you if your entire thought process is "It doesn't matter what I argue, since I know every argument I make is right, even if they contradict each other all over the place."

[CommissarSpartacus]

You never let anybody win. You drag things out and change your arguments ad nauseum until people give up. This is me giving up. There's no point in having this conversation with you if your entire thought process is "It doesn't matter what I argue, since I know every argument I make is right, even if they contradict each other all over the place."

Aside from this particular issue, could you please name me an instance where I should have let someone else "win" and didn't? I like to think that my education, ideas and process dictate my positions because they're well thought out and scrupulously objective.

Where have I failed?

[ICRockets]

I like to think that my education, ideas and process dictate my positions

We know you like to think that. Most of the time it's true. But then there are situations like this one, where you have no steady position. Your take keeps changing. In one post, McNally deflated the balls because the refs weren't doing their job. In the next, you never said McNally deflated the balls.

[CommissarSpartacus]

We know you like to think that. Most of the time it's true. But then there are situations like this one, where you have no steady position. Your take keeps changing. In one post, McNally deflated the balls because the refs weren't doing their job. In the next, you never said McNally deflated the balls.

So, aside from THIS issue, you can't think of a specific incidence of me not allowing someone to "win", even though they deserved it? Is this correct?

[Mace]

WTF is it with you guys, that you'll abandon all pretences of intellectual honesty when you want something bad enough?

It's like America isn't really a country of adults, it's a country of physically mature children.

I sure can't understand how that happened, but it sure did. Gives your political arguments more context too.

[ICRockets]

So, aside from THIS issue, you can't think of a specific incidence of me not allowing someone to "win", even though they deserved it? Is this correct?

You're really this hard up for an argument that you need to have one about arguments?

[CommissarSpartacus]

You're really this hard up for an argument that you need to have one about arguments?

You're the one who claimed I never let anyone win, as if winning is my overriding concern and my arguments are merely designed to maintain my superiority.

Am I not allowed a single example?

As for your complaints about my process, people complain all the time because I won't say what they want me to say, they want me to commit to a position that's silly to take because the evidence doesn't warrant it. But that doesn't mean an educated opinion can't be put forward based on what we know and what our knowledge of human natures teaches us.

Now, for the record, I am no particular fan of Tom Brady or the Pats, nor do I hate them.

Whereas you guys hate them with a passion, all the way back to "Let them have it" and the Tuck rule.

So, who do you think an independent arbitrator would decide who could be more objective about the issue, you or me?

[ICRockets]

You're the one who claimed I never let anyone win, as if winning is my overriding concern and my arguments are merely designed to maintain my superiority.

Am I not allowed a single example?

As for your complaints about my process, people complain all the time because I won't say what they want me to say, they want me to commit to a position that's silly to take because the evidence doesn't warrant it. But that doesn't mean an educated opinion can't be put forward based on what we know and what our knowledge of human natures teaches us.

Now, for the record, I am no particular fan of Tom Brady or the Pats, nor do I hate them.

Whereas you guys hate them with a passion, all the way back to "Let them have it" and the Tuck rule.

So, who do you think an independent arbitrator would decide who could be more objective about the issue, you or me?

Nobody is denying that your objectivity is greater than ours. We're just in disagreement that such a fact must necessarily mean you're more likely to be right. YardRat tries to be "objective" in the sense that he seeks the middle in basically every argument. We both know that doesn't make him right more often. The possibility exists, and I contend that it is a strong one, that the Patriots intentionally deflated balls below the legal limit allowed by the NFL. Furthermore, if it happened, the evidence in the Wells Report indicates that Tom Brady very likely knew about and signed off on it.

Your arguments to the contrary are not particularly compelling if you're not willing to stick with them long enough for us to have a real conversation about them. You can't just say, "this may have happened, but i don't know if it did" and then tell us that you have any certainty that what the Wells Report suggests definitely DIDN'T occur.

[ICRockets]

After all, if anybody isn't objective, it's Patriots fans. How can you point to our opinions and tell us we're wrong because of our bias, and then see something like this and think it passes muster?

http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/29141836/woman-declares-tom-bradys-innocence-in-her-obituary?utm_campaign=Socialflow+Facebook&utm_source=socialflow&utm_medium=Faceboook

[YardRat]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/15/dont-expect-to-hear-from-mcnally-or-jastremski/

Chances are that Jastremski and McNally signed documents upon being hired by the Patriots (or at some point thereafter) preventing them from making public comments about their work with the team. And they’ve likely both been reminded about those commitments in recent days, especially after being suspended without pay.

Of course, that doesn’t stop either or both from talking. But the Patriots, who have demonstrated a significant level of zeal and motivation in connection with the defense of their position that nothing improper occurred, would possibly be able to unleash a storm of lawyers who could sue Jastremski or McNally into oblivion — if they’ve previously committed in writing to do no talking of any kind.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Nobody is denying that your objectivity is greater than ours. We're just in disagreement that such a fact must necessarily mean you're more likely to be right.

Why wouldn't my objectivity make it more likely than not that I'm correct? If objectivity doesn't offer any practical advantages, then what's it good for? It doesn't NECESSARILY mean I'm correct but it certainly gives me a better shot than just pulling things out of my ass. And then, when you add my track record, you'd think people that disagree with me would think twice about what I'm saying rather than just attacking.


YardRat tries to be "objective" in the sense that he seeks the middle in basically every argument. We both know that doesn't make him right more often.

He's coming around, albeit slowly, but it is a knee-jerk reaction one can train themselves out of. Lecter has managed, but the attraction of hiding in the middle because it's safe is quite powerful.


The possibility exists, and I contend that it is a strong one, that the Patriots intentionally deflated balls below the legal limit allowed by the NFL.

I agree the possibility exists, but I wouldn't call it either strong or weak. Admitting the possibility exists is an objective assessment, but adding the adjective strong is unjustified at this point and requires a value judgment based on feelings


Furthermore, if it happened, the evidence in the Wells Report indicates that Tom Brady very likely knew about and signed off on it.

Again, no one will address the obvious question. Why would Tom Brady represent the qbs in their petition to change the rules for the preparation of footballs in order to make it easier to handle the ball and not address the inflation issue at the same time? Why would he push a rule change he fully intended to break? Makes no sense, unless of course Tom Brady somehow KNEW 8 years ago, before ANY of the stats geeks, that taking a little air out of the football would make a huge difference to the fumble numbers. Personally, my inclination is toward Brady changing the rule in good faith but became exasperated with the officials sloppiness with the inflations and told the boys to do what was necessary to make sure the balls weren't OVER-inflated.

And if a player has to do something surrepticious to ensure that a rule is followed correctly, then that's the league's fault, not the player's.

Remember, all these "officials" are basically amateurs. Who they are, why they're chosen and their level of competence is a result of a multi-billion dollar operation cheaping out. And now they're smearing possibly their greatest player ever as a result.


Your arguments to the contrary are not particularly compelling if you're not willing to stick with them long enough for us to have a real conversation about them.

Sorry, but my experience has been that very few people want to have a real conversation with me about the subject, they would rather declaim and express their outrage. When they find out that doesn't work, then they break out the argument that the accusation in and of itself is proof of guilt. Then, when that doesn't work, they start with the "when did you stop beating your wife" questions. Then the personal attacks. This is why we have to argue about the arguments. Because people would rather win than be contradicted.


You can't just say, "this may have happened, but i don't know if it did" and then tell us that you have any certainty that what the Wells Report suggests definitely DIDN'T occur.

Excuse me? Didn't the Wells report say "this may have happened, but i don't know if it did"? And yet you are willing to embrace Ted Wells while critici2ing me for the same thing.

Why? Because you, and the rest of the haters WANT Ted Wells to be right and you WANT me to be wrong.

[CommissarSpartacus]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/15/dont-expect-to-hear-from-mcnally-or-jastremski/

Chances are that Jastremski and McNally signed documents upon being hired by the Patriots (or at some point thereafter) preventing them from making public comments about their work with the team. And they’ve likely both been reminded about those commitments in recent days, especially after being suspended without pay.

Of course, that doesn’t stop either or both from talking. But the Patriots, who have demonstrated a significant level of zeal and motivation in connection with the defense of their position that nothing improper occurred, would possibly be able to unleash a storm of lawyers who could sue Jastremski or McNally into oblivion — if they’ve previously committed in writing to do no talking of any kind.




Chances are? Not quite. Rather "it's a possibility".

Of course it's possible to insist that employees of any business might be required to sign non-disclosure agreements, but there isn't a court in the land that would uphold it if the person was revealing massive wrong-doing by the people that demanded the document.

Non-disclosure agreements are to make sure that valid intellectual property and privacy rights are upheld, not to prevent people from revealing wrong-doing.

I think it's much more likely that the Pats would use the carrot rather than the stick in this situation.

Keep your mouths shut and you'll be well rewarded.

[CommissarSpartacus]

After all, if anybody isn't objective, it's Patriots fans. How can you point to our opinions and tell us we're wrong because of our bias, and then see something like this and think it passes muster?

http://www.myfoxboston.com/story/29141836/woman-declares-tom-bradys-innocence-in-her-obituary?utm_campaign=Socialflow+Facebook&utm_source=socialflow&utm_medium=Faceboook

You're making fun of a woman's dying wishes?

That's pretty cold, don't you think?

[HHURRICANE]

You're making fun of a woman's dying wishes?

That's pretty cold, don't you think?

I'm sure he is but I will. She's an idiot.

[YardRat]

Chances are? Not quite. Rather "it's a possibility".

Of course it's possible to insist that employees of any business might be required to sign non-disclosure agreements, but there isn't a court in the land that would uphold it if the person was revealing massive wrong-doing by the people that demanded the document.

Non-disclosure agreements are to make sure that valid intellectual property and privacy rights are upheld, not to prevent people from revealing wrong-doing.

I think it's much more likely that the Pats would use the carrot rather than the stick in this situation.

Keep your mouths shut and you'll be well rewarded.

IMO Florio used the term 'chances are' because it's a common practice, and yes, I haven't been able to find anything definitive that would overcome "it's a possibility". Also, I agree, there are 'whistle-blower' laws on the books that would probably work in the two's favor in a court, but I would guess only if they came forward under terms that didn't include personal financial gain.

[YardRat]

Nobody is denying that your objectivity is greater than ours. We're just in disagreement that such a fact must necessarily mean you're more likely to be right. YardRat tries to be "objective" in the sense that he seeks the middle in basically every argument. We both know that doesn't make him right more often. The possibility exists, and I contend that it is a strong one, that the Patriots intentionally deflated balls below the legal limit allowed by the NFL. Furthermore, if it happened, the evidence in the Wells Report indicates that Tom Brady very likely knew about and signed off on it.

Your arguments to the contrary are not particularly compelling if you're not willing to stick with them long enough for us to have a real conversation about them. You can't just say, "this may have happened, but i don't know if it did" and then tell us that you have any certainty that what the Wells Report suggests definitely DIDN'T occur.

Well, it's more 'balance' than 'the middle', but I know you dislike it when I use that term. Perhaps 'equilibrium' would be better.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I'm sure he is but I will. She's an idiot.

Jesus takes note of stuff like this.

[CommissarSpartacus]

IMO Florio used the term 'chances are' because it's a common practice, and yes, I haven't been able to find anything definitive that would overcome "it's a possibility". Also, I agree, there are 'whistle-blower' laws on the books that would probably work in the two's favor in a court, but I would guess only if they came forward under terms that didn't include personal financial gain.

Hey, if an ex-Navy Seal can write a book about killing Bin Laden (whether true or false), McNally can write a book about deflating Tommy's balls.

[better days]

Jesus takes note of stuff like this.

If that is the case, then no doubt Jesus also takes note of CHEATERS & those that support CHEATERS & CHEATING.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Well, it's more 'balance' than 'the middle', but I know you dislike it when I use that term. Perhaps 'equilibrium' would be better.

Without equilibrium, you fall off the fence.

[CommissarSpartacus]

If that is the case, then no doubt Jesus also takes note of CHEATERS & those that support CHEATERS & CHEATING.

He also notes those who bear false witness, so you better hope you're right.

[better days]

He also notes those who bear false witness, so you better hope you're right.

Exactly right, CHEATERS supporters bearing FALSE witness.

[HHURRICANE]

Jesus takes note of stuff like this.

Dude I've been watching you hog this site defending Brady and your other BS for weeks now. Some lady leaves in her obituary that Brady is innocent and that's not idiotic?

Jesus has nothing to do with this.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Dude I've been watching you hog this site defending Brady and your other BS for weeks now. Some lady leaves in her obituary that Brady is innocent and that's not idiotic?

Jesus has nothing to do with this.

Hog the site?

What is it with you guys and hyperbole? Do you think the more absurd your rhetoric, the stronger your case?

[HHURRICANE]

Hog the site?

What is it with you guys and hyperbole? Do you think the more absurd your rhetoric, the stronger your case?

Hyperbole? You who thinks spygate didn't happen?

Brady heads up the petition to change how the balls are delivered and than gets caught abusing the change he wanted. I'd say you've lost your mind on this topic.

[Strongman]

If that is the case, then no doubt Jesus also takes note of CHEATERS & those that support CHEATERS & CHEATING.

Pretty sure Jesus would also be against the Cheatriot fans worship of their false idols.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2015/05/foxboro_fans_rally_for_half_god_tom_brady

[CommissarSpartacus]

Hyperbole? You who thinks spygate didn't happen?


Huh? WTF does hyperbole have to do with the facts of Spygate? Do you know what hyperbole means?

If you're going to whine "Yah, well you do it too!" there has to be some sort of equivalence. It can't be two random actions.

[better days]

Pretty sure Jesus would also be against the Cheatriot fans worship of their false idols.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2015/05/foxboro_fans_rally_for_half_god_tom_brady

And those 200 CHEATERS fans can protest all they want.

The fans of every other team will view Brady the same.

His legacy is that of a CHEATER.