Kiko sighting...

[stuckincincy]

He's participating in Philly's OTAs.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20150530_Eagles__Alonso_ready_go__earlier_than_expected.html

[djjimkelly]

good for philly gl

[better days]

Earlier than expected?

He was injured well before OTA's last season.

Has had at least a full year to recover.

[YardRat]

I hope he does well. I hope Shady does better.

[stuckincincy]

I hope he does well. I hope Shady does better.

McCoy needs to be fitted with a gag.

[feldspar]

I hope he does well. I hope Shady does better.

Yeah, Kiko was basically my favorite player...loved him from the moment the Bills drafted him, and that can be verified somehow on this board. My first reaction was to be upset when the guy at CVS told me about the trade.

I'll be rooting for Kiko still...after all, I share the same birthday as him...me, him, and Tim Tebow. Halle Berry too.

But I can see the reasoning behind getting Shady now. There is real potential for him to help this team more than my boy Kiko would.

[Meathead]

who?

[feldspar]

McCoy needs to be fitted with a gag.

I see you don't like black people. :;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;

[stuckincincy]

I see you don't like black people. :;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;:;

Fo Shizzle? :dance2:

[ublinkwescore]

I had the same birthday as Josh Reed and James Brown.

[Goobylal]

So they're planning on keeping him at MLB? I'll be interested to see if he can hold up for a whole season, unlike in his rookie year.

[JoeMama]

F-Jax and Kiko were co #1's as my favorite Bill.

It's a bummer one's gone and one's probably playing out his final year.

It's gonna be hard to replace players like them, who embody everything that's good about the sport of football.

[sudzy]

I see he gave the Bills a little shot there.

[BertSquirtgum]

I don't care. He is not on the Bills anymore.

[Night Train]

Love the guy and wish him all the best.

I make that trade for McCoy 10 times over.

[swiper]

McCoy is one of the top 3, if not the top, RB in the NFL.

Given the Bills QB situation that trade was brilliant.

[Mace]

Kiko doesn't look like he's wearing a heavy hoodie to sweat off his offseason cheeseburgers and pizzas like Preston Brown was. Just sayin.

[JoeMama]

Preston Brown played some good football last season.

With the regiment he's about to be on, he'll be in football shape in no time.

Not a concern for me.

[JoeMama]

McCoy is one of the top 3, if not the top, RB in the NFL.

Given the Bills QB situation that trade was brilliant.

Eh, it's a gambit.

It's a roll of the dice to win now kind of trade -- which is fine since **** it I want to win now too.

But I believe Kiko Alonso has it in him to be a future HOF'er who could have anchored our D for a decade.

McCoy has maybe 3 years left before he's done.

But the fact is we can't win without a QB and even 100 McCoy's might not be enough to help us win now.

That's not me saying it. That's just the reality of the NFL in the year 2015.

McCoy is nice to have but I doubt he can compensate for the lack of talent we have at QB.

Because in today's NFL, only QB's matter. RB's are ancillary and interchangeable.

[Goobylal]

Eh, it's a gambit.

It's a roll of the dice to win now kind of trade -- which is fine since **** it I want to win now too.

But I believe Kiko Alonso has it in him to be a future HOF'er who could have anchored our D for a decade.

McCoy has maybe 3 years left before he's done.

But the fact is we can't win without a QB and even 100 McCoy's might not be enough to help us win now.

That's not me saying it. That's just the reality of the NFL in the year 2015.

McCoy is nice to have but I doubt he can compensate for the lack of talent we have at QB.

Because in today's NFL, only QB's matter. RB's are ancillary and interchangeable.
Before re-rupturing his ACL, I'd have been inclined to agree with you.

[JoeMama]

Before re-rupturing his ACL, I'd have been inclined to agree with you.

Yeah true but ACL injuries aren't the career enders they used to be.

The surgical techniques have improved so dramatically that guy's resume their same level of production on a pretty regular basis now.

[Mace]

Before re-rupturing his ACL, I'd have been inclined to agree with you.

I dunno. To me an LB who comes back from two ACL's and doesn't need a hoodie to sweat off inactivity when he had every reason to be inactive and need a hoodie, but shows up to camp looking chiseled is pretty impressive.

I'm not worried about Brown either, but you can clearly see a difference in motivated intensity and I won't stop thinking it was a stupid trade until it proves not to be a stupid trade.

[Goobylal]

Yeah true but ACL injuries aren't the career enders they used to be.

The surgical techniques have improved so dramatically that guy's resume their same level of production on a pretty regular basis now.
True they've improved, but he still tore his ACL twice. People were calling EJ injury-prone after suffering far less serious knee injuries in his rookie season.

I dunno. To me an LB who comes back from two ACL's and doesn't need a hoodie to sweat off inactivity when he had every reason to be inactive and need a hoodie, but shows up to camp looking chiseled is pretty impressive.

I'm not worried about Brown either, but you can clearly see a difference in motivated intensity and I won't stop thinking it was a stupid trade until it proves not to be a stupid trade.
It wasn't a stupid trade in any way, shape, or form. For starters, the Bills didn't miss Kiko last year and in fact their defense improved immensely. Then you add an All-Pro RB who has several more good years and it's a no-brainer. And again, tearing the same knee up isn't a good sign.

And you got that Brown wasn't chiseled based on him wearing a hoodie and that Kiko was based on a picture showing his arms and part of his legs? Impressive.

[JoeMama]

True they've improved, but he still tore his ACL twice. People were calling EJ injury-prone after suffering far less serious knee injuries in his rookie season.

ACL tears tend to be freak accidents.

Being on the injury list every week for regular knee injuries lends itself more to the injury prone label.

[feldspar]

ACL tears tend to be freak accidents.

Being on the injury list every week for regular knee injuries lends itself more to the injury prone label.

I guess freak accidents can happen more than once to the same guy. I guess this same guy was struck by lightning seven times, according to the Guinness Book of World's Records.

Also, some guys learn to protect themselves out there better than others.

But it's a dangerous game, and some people are just plain lucky. I just have a hard time when people label somebody "injury prone." I think it's unfair quite often.

The truth of the matter here is that ACL tears are serious injuries. That's why players are out for entire seasons when they get them. While they seem to be overcome better than they used to be, they can cripple a player's career. Sam Cowart comes to mind with his Achilles tear...another serious injury. We could have been talking about him as one of the best.

The legend of Kiko Alonso won't allow for this to set him back, though. He's STILL in contention for being my favorite player. We'll see him this year.

[YardRat]

lol...here's one of my early comments on drafting Kiko...

"Don't care about the off-field stuff, nothing really serious, but he's a little light in the ass for this level of play. Hopefully he can bulk up a little bit and not lose any speed, quickness or ability to impact, otherwise he's just going to be a ST's upgrade over White."

The first part appeared to be accurate in his rookie season, but the second part...yeah, not so much.

[better days]

ACL tears tend to be freak accidents.

Being on the injury list every week for regular knee injuries lends itself more to the injury prone label.

Well, with a torn ACL, you are on the injury list every week.

[JoeMama]

Well, with a torn ACL, you are on the injury list every week.

No you're not, you're on IR -- excluded from the active roster.

[better days]

No you're not, you're on IR -- excluded from the active roster.

OK, semantics.

The point is a torn ACL twice on the same knee is much more troubling than a tweaked knee a couple times.

And reports are EJ has put on about 15 lbs of muscle this offseason, hopefully some of it was in his legs.

[YardRat]

Hopefully some of it was between his ears.

[JoeMama]

OK, semantics.

The point is a torn ACL twice on the same knee is much more troubling than a tweaked knee a couple times.

And reports are EJ has put on about 15 lbs of muscle this offseason, hopefully some of it was in his legs.

Like I said, ACL surgery has become so advanced it's really not ending guys' careers anymore.

I can think of a couple guys who tore their ACL's more than once.

Casey Hampton, Thomas Davis, Ray MacDonald, and I think that WR (forget this first name) Dixon from the Giants.

Also, I do hope the added muscle helps keep EJ's legs healthy.

[Mace]

It wasn't a stupid trade in any way, shape, or form. For starters, the Bills didn't miss Kiko last year and in fact their defense improved immensely. Then you add an All-Pro RB who has several more good years and it's a no-brainer. And again, tearing the same knee up isn't a good sign.

And you got that Brown wasn't chiseled based on him wearing a hoodie and that Kiko was based on a picture showing his arms and part of his legs? Impressive.

Can't agree whatever that the jury is back on the trade before anything else happens, like games and athletes playing them.

For starters, I don't know what they didn't miss last year with a different LB playing in a different scheme, or what Alonso would have done in it. But it was a different scheme they improved immensely in, under a diff DC, with a LB who plays a different game from Alonso, so the comparison is meaningless.

I'm not by any means down on Preston Brown, I like him, like him a lot. I was giddy at the idea of he and Alonson in a Rex Ryan defense. The hoodie thing was hardly serious, and if you even saw the point to bring it up, it speaks for itself. The comment was related to my comment in the Brown/hoodie thread. If he did in fact eat too many cheeseburgers and pizzas, he's behaving like he should in the prep part of the offseason anyway. If you failed to watch the video and see him sweating buckets talking to the reporter and needing to keep wiping his face off with the sweat running like water and think he's doing it for fun, that's fine too.

I'd say the same about your thoughts, impressive.

Truth is, rb's are a dime a dozen these days, not hard to find. We now have 5 of 7 backs that other people found and used previously, not wanting to keep them. To me, this is the equivalent of paying for other peoples cool seashells while not walking down to the beach and picking them up.

But the base fact is this, neither McCoy or Alonso has played a regular season snap yet, and it's stupendously naive to conclude anything whatever about that trade, and the performance of offense and defense in relation to it, if you live in any degree of reality...because it hasn't happened yet, and I'm sorry to have to point it out.

[Goobylal]

Can't agree whatever that the jury is back on the trade before anything else happens, like games and athletes playing them.

For starters, I don't know what they didn't miss last year with a different LB playing in a different scheme, or what Alonso would have done in it. But it was a different scheme they improved immensely in, under a diff DC, with a LB who plays a different game from Alonso, so the comparison is meaningless.

I'm not by any means down on Preston Brown, I like him, like him a lot. I was giddy at the idea of he and Alonson in a Rex Ryan defense. The hoodie thing was hardly serious, and if you even saw the point to bring it up, it speaks for itself. The comment was related to my comment in the Brown/hoodie thread. If he did in fact eat too many cheeseburgers and pizzas, he's behaving like he should in the prep part of the offseason anyway. If you failed to watch the video and see him sweating buckets talking to the reporter and needing to keep wiping his face off with the sweat running like water and think he's doing it for fun, that's fine too.

I'd say the same about your thoughts, impressive.

Truth is, rb's are a dime a dozen these days, not hard to find. We now have 5 of 7 backs that other people found and used previously, not wanting to keep them. To me, this is the equivalent of paying for other peoples cool seashells while not walking down to the beach and picking them up.

But the base fact is this, neither McCoy or Alonso has played a regular season snap yet, and it's stupendously naive to conclude anything whatever about that trade, and the performance of offense and defense in relation to it, if you live in any degree of reality...because it hasn't happened yet, and I'm sorry to have to point it out.
You can't agree that the jury is back on the trade, but you can claim it was a stupid one? How does that jibe, exactly?

I mean, even if you don't live in reality and don't realize that McCoy is a better player than Kiko right now, you (can try but) cannot argue the facts that: a) last year the Bills' defense improved despite his absence and b) the offense was terrible. So the Bills trading a player they did fine without and who was coming off an injury, for an All-Pro player who should help improve that lousy offense (because none of the other "cool seashells" are/were that good, including the guy he's replacing) isn't stupid, it's actually the opposite.

As for Brown, the sweating means nothing. I know why you're trying to make it into something.

And as for RB's, the Eagles, who you are lauding for making the trade, went out and paid Murray what McCoy got, essentially picking up another team's "cool seashell." Despite Kelly's desire to show everyone that it's he who is the genius and makes everything go.

[Mace]

You can't agree that the jury is back on the trade, but you can claim it was a stupid one? How does that jibe, exactly?

I mean, even if you don't live in reality and don't realize that McCoy is a better player than Kiko right now, you (can try but) cannot argue the facts that: a) last year the Bills' defense improved despite his absence and b) the offense was terrible. So the Bills trading a player they did fine without and who was coming off an injury, for an All-Pro player who should help improve that lousy offense (because none of the other "cool seashells" are/were that good, including the guy he's replacing) isn't stupid, it's actually the opposite.

As for Brown, the sweating means nothing. I know why you're trying to make it into something.

And as for RB's, the Eagles, who you are lauding for making the trade, went out and paid Murray what McCoy got, essentially picking up another team's "cool seashell." Despite Kelly's desire to show everyone that it's he who is the genius and makes everything go.

I'm comfortable saying the Alonso trade was a bad one, and comfortable saying it's my opinion because nothing happened yet. Because like, it's my opinion see ?

"Right now", neither one is the "better player", if you haven't noticed the season didn't start yet even ?

Like I said, the sweating Brown in the hoodie was tongue in cheek connected to my Brown in the hoodie post. You're the one keeps bringing it up to try and make it into something. He was wearing a hoodie, and sweating off offseason, as he should, I have no clue what you're trying to make of it as I already explained it about as well as anyone could to a child.

It has nothing to do with Chip Kelly, who just replaced bigbucks McCoy with bigbucks Murray/Matthews, and wowie, some teams drafted running backs that will gain 1,000 yards ! Some signed cheap FA's that will ! Some even will pick up cheap alternatives that will !

Like it or not we have 5 of 7 rb's that are rb's and other people didn't find them as crucial, that we paid heavy for. Good deal if you're looking for a 1500 yard back to sweeten a team that gets nowhere. If you want to argue how many premier backs get Super Bowl MVP, welcome to 1998, 17 years ago, last LB that did was 2014.

Go ahead, keep arguing, I have a load of stats to dump on your shiny rb love. You might want to look into what you're arguing first.

If I might suggest, McCoy's 1 playoff TD and 147 playoff yards for his 6 years. Math it out.

[Goobylal]

I'm comfortable saying the Alonso trade was a bad one, and comfortable saying it's my opinion because nothing happened yet. Because like, it's my opinion see ?

"Right now", neither one is the "better player", if you haven't noticed the season didn't start yet even ?

Like I said, the sweating Brown in the hoodie was tongue in cheek connected to my Brown in the hoodie post. You're the one keeps bringing it up to try and make it into something. He was wearing a hoodie, and sweating off offseason, as he should, I have no clue what you're trying to make of it as I already explained it about as well as anyone could to a child.

It has nothing to do with Chip Kelly, who just replaced bigbucks McCoy with bigbucks Murray/Matthews, and wowie, some teams drafted running backs that will gain 1,000 yards ! Some signed cheap FA's that will ! Some even will pick up cheap alternatives that will !

Like it or not we have 5 of 7 rb's that are rb's and other people didn't find them as crucial, that we paid heavy for. Good deal if you're looking for a 1500 yard back to sweeten a team that gets nowhere. If you want to argue how many premier backs get Super Bowl MVP, welcome to 1998, 17 years ago, last LB that did was 2014.

Go ahead, keep arguing, I have a load of stats to dump on your shiny rb love. You might want to look into what you're arguing first.

If I might suggest, McCoy's 1 playoff TD and 147 playoff yards for his 6 years. Math it out.
Sure one of them is a better player! It's the guy who has 2 All-Pro noms and 3 Pro Bowls to his name versus your lb love's none of either. How hard is this to understand?

Your Brown sweating out the cheeseburgers thing was stupid, even for a child. You said it in the other thread and then brought it up again unsolicited in this one, which belies your indignation. Maybe Kiko isn't sweating because he's not going all out yet because he's still recovering from his injury?

Sure it has something to do with Kelly. By saying the Bills were stupid to trade Kiko for a RB, you're claiming it was smart for Kelly to trade for him and dump McCoy because "RB's are a dime a dozen" (and really, that's your entire premise since the facts don't support you in any way shape or form when it comes to the accomplishments of both players). And yet he goes out and signs not one but two RB's.

And in his 6 years, McCoy has played in just 3 playoff games. The first, as a rookie, he ran the ball just 5 times and the 2nd one he ran the ball just 12 times. And why ignore the 60 receiving yards?

[Mace]

And in his 6 years, McCoy has played in just 3 playoff games. The first, as a rookie, he ran the ball just 5 times and the 2nd one he ran the ball just 12 times. And why ignore the 60 receiving yards?

Woo. I missed the 60 receiving yards. I guess you just proved having the most awesome McCoy doesn't get you real far while he's been piling up the regular season stats. That's sort of how it goes with running backs.

The facts support me just fine, thanks.

[Goobylal]

Woo. I missed the 60 receiving yards. I guess you just proved having the most awesome McCoy doesn't get you real far while he's been piling up the regular season stats. That's sort of how it goes with running backs.

The facts support me just fine, thanks.
Going by that logic, you wouldn't want a guy like Calvin Johnson either, right?

[Mouldsie]

I'd have kept Kiko's young legs and drafted Ameer Abdullah with his high character and young legs.

We'll see how it shakes out. Short term we might win out, long term I think Philly will.

The fact the Bills made this trade while drunk on a boat in less than 30 minutes is alarming..... not because of the move in particular as much as it seems like they just fly by the seat of their pants still

[BertSquirtgum]

Kiko sucks. By the end of his rookie year teams had him figured out and he was getting blocked out of most plays.

[better days]

Kiko sucks. By the end of his rookie year teams had him figured out and he was getting blocked out of most plays.

No question Kiko's play tailed off the last third of the year.

It could be as you say, he was figured out, or maybe he just hit the rookie wall.

Or maybe a combination of the two. In any case, he was not the dynamic player at the end of the year he was at the beginning.

It will be interesting to see who has the better year this year, Kiko or Shady.

[Mace]

Going by that logic, you wouldn't want a guy like Calvin Johnson either, right?

I'm not sure what your point is, Johnson has 17 catches, 296 yards and 2 td's when allowed to get to the playoffs, which would be 2 games worth, less games than McCoy and more yards and TD's.

Megatron doesn't win you Super Bowls or get you to the playoffs either, but he gives you some results if you get to a playoff game.

So what is your logic anyway ? That a big name back does what for you ?

My logic, is that a big name back does about as much as a not big name back, and you're going to get better value long term out of an LB with killer instinct and passion because they're harder to find than backs who flood out of college yearly.

I guess we'll see how it plays out, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's harder to find an all pro rb who doesn't get you anywhere than it is to find a stud playmaking lb who fits the defense you're trying to run, imho. Which one is harder to replace if they go down with a knee ?

[Goobylal]

I'm not sure what your point is, Johnson has 17 catches, 296 yards and 2 td's when allowed to get to the playoffs, which would be 2 games worth, less games than McCoy and more yards and TD's.

Megatron doesn't win you Super Bowls or get you to the playoffs either, but he gives you some results if you get to a playoff game.

So what is your logic anyway ? That a big name back does what for you ?

My logic, is that a big name back does about as much as a not big name back, and you're going to get better value long term out of an LB with killer instinct and passion because they're harder to find than backs who flood out of college yearly.

I guess we'll see how it plays out, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's harder to find an all pro rb who doesn't get you anywhere than it is to find a stud playmaking lb who fits the defense you're trying to run, imho. Which one is harder to replace if they go down with a knee ?
Despite Megatron's stats, the Lions have made the playoffs just twice in his 8 years, and his team still lost both playoff games. So are you saying you don't need a big name RB, WR, or TE? Or would it be best to assemble the best collection of talent you can?

And as for Kiko, don't fool yourself into thinking he was all that great in 2013. He had a good first half of the season. Then in the off-season he proceeded to blow out his knee again in a non-football setting. Meanwhile the Bills' defense improved without him. And word I heard is that Ryan didn't believe that Kiko fit his scheme, hence the reason the trade went down as fast as it did.

[Mace]

Despite Megatron's stats, the Lions have made the playoffs just twice in his 8 years, and his team still lost both playoff games. So are you saying you don't need a big name RB, WR, or TE? Or would it be best to assemble the best collection of talent you can?

And as for Kiko, don't fool yourself into thinking he was all that great in 2013. He had a good first half of the season. Then in the off-season he proceeded to blow out his knee again in a non-football setting. Meanwhile the Bills' defense improved without him. And word I heard is that Ryan didn't believe that Kiko fit his scheme, hence the reason the trade went down as fast as it did.

Yeah yeah, no doubt, whatever. Like I said previous which you must have missed, the Bills improved in a diff scheme, under a diff coach with diff lb's. There's nothing I'm fooling myself into, but I think you're fooling yourself into wanting to believe the big money back makes it all ok.

RB, WR, TE, no no, we were talking RB vs. LB. You were the one all in on Shady and you're stuck there. TE and WR, we didn't trade anyone for those.

If you really want to bring Megatron into it, it only proves my point more. Is he part of the best collection of talent you can assemble ? Probably. Did it mean anything in terms of playoff wins and titles ? Nah.

So again, what is your logic ? If you had any you'd say it. I explained mine. I asked you enough questions my last post and you couldn't answer any of them. Give it up. It's not like you didn't see what I asked you, you quoted it.

[better days]

I'm not sure what your point is, Johnson has 17 catches, 296 yards and 2 td's when allowed to get to the playoffs, which would be 2 games worth, less games than McCoy and more yards and TD's.

Megatron doesn't win you Super Bowls or get you to the playoffs either, but he gives you some results if you get to a playoff game.

So what is your logic anyway ? That a big name back does what for you ?

My logic, is that a big name back does about as much as a not big name back, and you're going to get better value long term out of an LB with killer instinct and passion because they're harder to find than backs who flood out of college yearly.

I guess we'll see how it plays out, but don't fool yourself into thinking it's harder to find an all pro rb who doesn't get you anywhere than it is to find a stud playmaking lb who fits the defense you're trying to run, imho. Which one is harder to replace if they go down with a knee ?

IMO, Shady would be harder for the Bills to replace than Kiko.

The Bills replaced Kiko last year & did fine without him.

Kiko was like an appendix on the Bills, not really needed.

I would have rather gotten a first rnd pick for Kiko in trade, but would any team give up that much for him?

McCoy was the trade offered to the Bills & I am fine with that.

I would rather have McCoy than a 4th rnd pick like the Bills got for Beast Mode.

[swiper]

It was clearly a good trade for the Bills.

Kiko is a great player, a good kid, and I'm sure a good teammate. It's hard not to like him. Or root for him to succeed.

So good luck to him. I will keep an eye on how he plays.

But I hope McCoy runs over everyone like a Buffalo. Even being I hate Manuel and Ryan, it's hard not to get excited about watching McCoy in red, white and blue.

[Goobylal]

Yeah yeah, no doubt, whatever. Like I said previous which you must have missed, the Bills improved in a diff scheme, under a diff coach with diff lb's. There's nothing I'm fooling myself into, but I think you're fooling yourself into wanting to believe the big money back makes it all ok.

RB, WR, TE, no no, we were talking RB vs. LB. You were the one all in on Shady and you're stuck there. TE and WR, we didn't trade anyone for those.

If you really want to bring Megatron into it, it only proves my point more. Is he part of the best collection of talent you can assemble ? Probably. Did it mean anything in terms of playoff wins and titles ? Nah.

So again, what is your logic ? If you had any you'd say it. I explained mine. I asked you enough questions my last post and you couldn't answer any of them. Give it up. It's not like you didn't see what I asked you, you quoted it.
So what if they improved with a diff scheme and under a diff coach (the "diff lb's" is wrong)? They improved without him, did they not? You can talk until you're blue in the fact but that's an immutable fact. They kept the defense largely intact and they went out and got a coach who is considered a better defensive mind than the guy he's replacing (while all we heard about him last year was that he was going to destroy the defense by implementing the "wide 9). Furthemore, if Ryan didn't think Kiko wasn't a fit for his defense, it made even more sense to trade him for an All-Pro RB to help shore up the trouble area of the team: the offense. Put simply, for you, it was the trade of a LB they found they didn't need for a top RB. And while you keep talking about it being as simple as drafting a RB in the 2nd or later rounds, it's not even close to being that easy.

But what I find funny is that you are talking about things being different on defense for the Bills, while missing (or conveniently ignoring) that Kiko played well, for half a season, in a different scheme than what he'll be playing in Philly. Sorry but you can't have it both ways.

And the point I'm making is that you are arguing for not adding name/money players because they don't win playoff games for you. Doesn't matter the position (outside of QB). Does a single LB win you games? Nah. Did the Bills do better without Kiko? Yah. Did they need help on offense more than defense? Yah. Was trading a guy they didn't end up needing for a top player a smart trade? Yah.

[Mace]

So what if they improved with a diff scheme and under a diff coach (the "diff lb's" is wrong)? They improved without him, did they not? You can talk until you're blue in the fact but that's an immutable fact. They kept the defense largely intact and they went out and got a coach who is considered a better defensive mind than the guy he's replacing (while all we heard about him last year was that he was going to destroy the defense by implementing the "wide 9). Furthemore, if Ryan didn't think Kiko wasn't a fit for his defense, it made even more sense to trade him for an All-Pro RB to help shore up the trouble area of the team: the offense. Put simply, for you, it was the trade of a LB they found they didn't need for a top RB. And while you keep talking about it being as simple as drafting a RB in the 2nd or later rounds, it's not even close to being that easy.

But what I find funny is that you are talking about things being different on defense for the Bills, while missing (or conveniently ignoring) that Kiko played well, for half a season, in a different scheme than what he'll be playing in Philly. Sorry but you can't have it both ways.

And the point I'm making is that you are arguing for not adding name/money players because they don't win playoff games for you. Doesn't matter the position (outside of QB). Does a single LB win you games? Nah. Did the Bills do better without Kiko? Yah. Did they need help on offense more than defense? Yah. Was trading a guy they didn't end up needing for a top player a smart trade? Yah.

Well, the diff lb's isn't wrong, it was Brown and Spikes and Bradham in an entirely different Schwartz defense from Pettine/Ryan. The immutable fact is that is was a different defense, without Alonso, and will be a different one again, without Alonso and Spikes.

You're bringing up Schwartz and how he was going to destroy the defense, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about, you're waffling outside the lines of your own argument.

Put simply, for you, it's plenty easy to find a successful running back in draft or FA you don't have to break the bank for. If I have to I'll start shelling you with examples ?

I don't have any idea what you think I'm having both ways, and you're still flailing around past your own initial arguments, without answering my questions on your logic for being so certain the trade was a success when they HAVEN'T PLAYED yet.

The debate started over back vs LB, has nothing to do with name players/big money players besides those two, which means backs and lb's. You fell flat on your face with your feeble Megatron point, and I don't really think you have any point at all besides you want a shiny big name big bucks rb and think it makes us an immediate contender. That's the NFL from decades ago. It's just not that way anymore, or point out what big bucks big name back makes his team an automatic contender ?

You can't. There isn't one. Closest you can get is Marshawn Lynch, who also has, surprise, a defense, QB and and excellent proven coaching staff there. Note the word "proven", they actually played games and have a track record.

Fine you didn't like Alonso and adore Shady. Suppose they might need to play some games where they are to prove your "point" ? I'm comfortable saying they have to to prove mine. And well, they will, so ... ?

[Goobylal]

Well, the diff lb's isn't wrong, it was Brown and Spikes and Bradham in an entirely different Schwartz defense from Pettine/Ryan. The immutable fact is that is was a different defense, without Alonso, and will be a different one again, without Alonso and Spikes.

You're bringing up Schwartz and how he was going to destroy the defense, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about, you're waffling outside the lines of your own argument.

Put simply, for you, it's plenty easy to find a successful running back in draft or FA you don't have to break the bank for. If I have to I'll start shelling you with examples ?

I don't have any idea what you think I'm having both ways, and you're still flailing around past your own initial arguments, without answering my questions on your logic for being so certain the trade was a success when they HAVEN'T PLAYED yet.

The debate started over back vs LB, has nothing to do with name players/big money players besides those two, which means backs and lb's. You fell flat on your face with your feeble Megatron point, and I don't really think you have any point at all besides you want a shiny big name big bucks rb and think it makes us an immediate contender. That's the NFL from decades ago. It's just not that way anymore, or point out what big bucks big name back makes his team an automatic contender ?

You can't. There isn't one. Closest you can get is Marshawn Lynch, who also has, surprise, a defense, QB and and excellent proven coaching staff there. Note the word "proven", they actually played games and have a track record.

Fine you didn't like Alonso and adore Shady. Suppose they might need to play some games where they are to prove your "point" ? I'm comfortable saying they have to to prove mine. And well, they will, so ... ?
I was talking about last year to this year because I'm saying that I expect the defense to continue to play at a high level, like they did last year without Kiko. Pettine to Schwartz is ancient history and means nothing right now. You are saying that the Bills might take a step back because they are changing schemes and won't have Kiko. So what I call "having it both ways" is failing/refusing to acknowledge Kiko will be playing in/on a different defense than he did with the Bills and thus might regress as well.

Go ahead and start "shelling me with examples" of RB's drafted after the 49th overall pick who have been nearly as productive as McCoy. You might find a handful at best over the past decade.

When did I say it was a "successful" trade? I said it was the opposite of a "stupid" trade because they were addressing an area of need on the team and gave up a guy who didn't play for them, and who was coming off injury. And as it stands right now, McCoy is the better player and almost no one besides you would say otherwise. The success of it obviously depends on how the players perform, not only just this coming season, but beyond.

Who said McCoy alone makes them a contender? Try some reading what's written instead of making **** up. Adding him no more makes the Bills a contender than adding Kiko makes the Eagles a contender. Adding him along with other pieces on offense helps make the Bills a contender.

No, I loved Kiko. That doesn't mean I didn't realize that he struggled mightily after a great first half, and that I wasn't concerned after he re-injured his knee, probably in non-contact workouts (or at least, not on the football field). And no I didn't love McCoy before he was a Bill, but I recognized the talent.

[YardRat]

I was talking about last year to this year because I'm saying that I expect the defense to continue to play at a high level, like they did last year without Kiko. Pettine to Schwartz is ancient history and means nothing right now. You are saying that the Bills might take a step back because they are changing schemes and won't have Kiko. So what I call "having it both ways" is failing/refusing to acknowledge Kiko will be playing in/on a different defense than he did with the Bills and thus might regress as well.

I haven't followed the conversation to the letter, but that would be an about-face for Mace. In the discussions he and I have had, anyway, the bolded has been my contention and he's supported the opposite.

[Night Train]

Once again, I wish Kiko all the best but my eyes are wide open to reality.

1. 2 knee procedures in a little over a year.
2. Out of football for over a year.
3. Regressed badly the 2nd half of 2013.
4. Didn't have a starting slot in the Rex scheme.

He'll play his tail off but odds are against him having a long career in the NFL. His best position would be OLB in a 4-3. Can't take the pounding inside and it seems the Eagles have him in the middle again. Makes no sense.

What little I saw of Ty Powell and Randall Johnson was good, so I didn't view LB as having a depth concern behind Bradham and Brown. Just my 2 cents. It's a trade you make 10 out of 10 times. Bills needed a feature RB.

[Goobylal]

I haven't followed the conversation to the letter, but that would be an about-face for Mace. In the discussions he and I have had, anyway, the bolded has been my contention and he's supported the opposite.
If that's how he feels about the defense, slamming the trade makes even less sense. Sure it would be nice to have Kiko, but if you have the opp to trade him for a top player, you do it.

Once again, I wish Kiko all the best but my eyes are wide open to reality.

1. 2 knee procedures in a little over a year.
2. Out of football for over a year.
3. Regressed badly the 2nd half of 2013.
4. Didn't have a starting slot in the Rex scheme.

He'll play his tail off but odds are against him having a long career in the NFL. His best position would be OLB in a 4-3. Can't take the pounding inside and it seems the Eagles have him in the middle again. Makes no sense.

What little I saw of Ty Powell and Randall Johnson was good, so I didn't view LB as having a depth concern behind Bradham and Brown. Just my 2 cents. It's a trade you make 10 out of 10 times. Bills needed a feature RB.
This.

[Mace]

I haven't followed the conversation to the letter, but that would be an about-face for Mace. In the discussions he and I have had, anyway, the bolded has been my contention and he's supported the opposite.

Yeah, the whole debate is becoming needlessly convoluted.

My simple point and my posts bear it out, is that I think it was a bad trade, because I think Alonso is going to be a stud, and we overpaid for a marquee dancer RB who has too many miles on him already.

Followup points are that RB's are dime a dozen, marquee ones guarantee nothing in terms of success, and excellent playmaking fierce LB's are more rare.

The schemes part, if you follow the posts, was that you can't say the defense succeeded because there was no Alonso, as it changed from Pettine/Ryan to Schwartz wide-9, there was nothing to compare it to with Alonso in a wide-9 under Schwartz, and it's changing again to Pettine/Ryan, this time without Alonso who was pretty darn successful in it last time. For that matter, there is no comparing how Brown plays in a Pettine/Ryan as he hasn't yet.

For that matter, there is no comparing how successful the defense was last year, to how it will perform this year in an entirely different scheme, without recognizing they are different schemes, so the improvement in the defense last year can certainly be credited to Schwartz and wide-9 without being able to compare how the players do in a pure Ryan defense because well, they just haven't yet.

I think it was a bad trade, they could have kept Alonso who may or may not have gotten hurt again, hasn't happened yet, and gotten a less pricey, less arrogant, younger RB.

I remember when we had OJ Simpson, a great back purely on football merit, and it meant nothing in terms of titles. For that matter, Jones-Drew, Stephen Jackson, CJ2K, Adrian Peterson, McCoy, have made minimal difference to the success of their teams.

Not real sure what else I can say or how much more I can explain it. I think it was a bad trade.

[better days]

Yeah, the whole debate is becoming needlessly convoluted.

My simple point and my posts bear it out, is that I think it was a bad trade, because I think Alonso is going to be a stud, and we overpaid for a marquee dancer RB who has too many miles on him already.

Followup points are that RB's are dime a dozen, marquee ones guarantee nothing in terms of success, and excellent playmaking fierce LB's are more rare.

The schemes part, if you follow the posts, was that you can't say the defense succeeded because there was no Alonso, as it changed from Pettine/Ryan to Schwartz wide-9, there was nothing to compare it to with Alonso in a wide-9 under Schwartz, and it's changing again to Pettine/Ryan, this time without Alonso who was pretty darn successful in it last time. For that matter, there is no comparing how Brown plays in a Pettine/Ryan as he hasn't yet.

For that matter, there is no comparing how successful the defense was last year, to how it will perform this year in an entirely different scheme, without recognizing they are different schemes, so the improvement in the defense last year can certainly be credited to Schwartz and wide-9 without being able to compare how the players do in a pure Ryan defense because well, they just haven't yet.

I think it was a bad trade, they could have kept Alonso who may or may not have gotten hurt again, hasn't happened yet, and gotten a less pricey, less arrogant, younger RB.

I remember when we had OJ Simpson, a great back purely on football merit, and it meant nothing in terms of titles. For that matter, Jones-Drew, Stephen Jackson, CJ2K, Adrian Peterson, McCoy, have made minimal difference to the success of their teams.

Not real sure what else I can say or how much more I can explain it. I think it was a bad trade.

I remember watching OJ play on some TERRIBLE Bills teams.

No, OJ did not help the Bills to any titles, but the year he ran for 2003 yards to set a record was the most fun I had watching the Bills aside from the 64-65 Championship teams & the Kelly Super Bowl Bills.

[Goobylal]

Yeah, the whole debate is becoming needlessly convoluted.

My simple point and my posts bear it out, is that I think it was a bad trade, because I think Alonso is going to be a stud, and we overpaid for a marquee dancer RB who has too many miles on him already.

Followup points are that RB's are dime a dozen, marquee ones guarantee nothing in terms of success, and excellent playmaking fierce LB's are more rare.

The schemes part, if you follow the posts, was that you can't say the defense succeeded because there was no Alonso, as it changed from Pettine/Ryan to Schwartz wide-9, there was nothing to compare it to with Alonso in a wide-9 under Schwartz, and it's changing again to Pettine/Ryan, this time without Alonso who was pretty darn successful in it last time. For that matter, there is no comparing how Brown plays in a Pettine/Ryan as he hasn't yet.

For that matter, there is no comparing how successful the defense was last year, to how it will perform this year in an entirely different scheme, without recognizing they are different schemes, so the improvement in the defense last year can certainly be credited to Schwartz and wide-9 without being able to compare how the players do in a pure Ryan defense because well, they just haven't yet.

I think it was a bad trade, they could have kept Alonso who may or may not have gotten hurt again, hasn't happened yet, and gotten a less pricey, less arrogant, younger RB.

I remember when we had OJ Simpson, a great back purely on football merit, and it meant nothing in terms of titles. For that matter, Jones-Drew, Stephen Jackson, CJ2K, Adrian Peterson, McCoy, have made minimal difference to the success of their teams.

Not real sure what else I can say or how much more I can explain it. I think it was a bad trade.
It's "needlessly convoluted" because you keep making stuff up. And there you go again! I never said the Bills' defense succeeded because Alonso was out: I said the defense improved despite him being out. There is a big difference there and I don't know how many more times I have to keep saying this.

And I know you think Alonso could be a stud. I felt that way as well...until he re-injured his knee working out and I looked back objectively on his rookie year and saw he dropped-off big-time from "stud level" by mid-season. Suffice it to say that he's got more question marks by far than the "dancing" RB with miles, who has consistently produced at a high level and should for several more years. But sorry, RB's like that aren't a "dime a dozen" and I'd be willing to bet no RB drafted after the 50th pick produces what he does this season. And if reports are true that he'll be playing MLB again, with the Eagles...

All we can do is go off of last year. The Bills had a top defense, again without Alonso, which was good enough to get them into the playoffs, and they hired a coach who is considered a better defensive mind than either of the guys the 2 seasons before him. And being that the problems were all on offense, trading a player they found out they didn't need, for one of the top RB's in the game, again was a smart move. And if you say that you can't say how the Bills' defense will do under Ryan, you also have to say that you can't say how Alonso will do in a new defense with the Eagles. "You know, I don't know how the Bills' defense will turn out but, hey, Alonso will be a stud!"

Lastly, your thinking that it's not worth trying to add talented players to your roster because individually they don't win games is silly. I have no idea why you keep coming back to that well.

[gebobs]

I had the same birthday as Josh Reed and James Brown.

I have the same birthday as Clint Malarchuk! :-)

[gebobs]

No, OJ did not help the Bills to any titles, but the year he ran for 2003 yards to set a record was the most fun I had watching the Bills aside from the 64-65 Championship teams & the Kelly Super Bowl Bills.
Yep...the other 40 seasons generally sucked.

[Mace]

It's "needlessly convoluted" because you keep making stuff up. And there you go again! I never said the Bills' defense succeeded because Alonso was out: I said the defense improved despite him being out. There is a big difference there and I don't know how many more times I have to keep saying this.

And I know you think Alonso could be a stud. I felt that way as well...until he re-injured his knee working out and I looked back objectively on his rookie year and saw he dropped-off big-time from "stud level" by mid-season. Suffice it to say that he's got more question marks by far than the "dancing" RB with miles, who has consistently produced at a high level and should for several more years. But sorry, RB's like that aren't a "dime a dozen" and I'd be willing to bet no RB drafted after the 50th pick produces what he does this season. And if reports are true that he'll be playing MLB again, with the Eagles...

All we can do is go off of last year. The Bills had a top defense, again without Alonso, which was good enough to get them into the playoffs, and they hired a coach who is considered a better defensive mind than either of the guys the 2 seasons before him. And being that the problems were all on offense, trading a player they found out they didn't need, for one of the top RB's in the game, again was a smart move. And if you say that you can't say how the Bills' defense will do under Ryan, you also have to say that you can't say how Alonso will do in a new defense with the Eagles. "You know, I don't know how the Bills' defense will turn out but, hey, Alonso will be a stud!"

Lastly, your thinking that it's not worth trying to add talented players to your roster because individually they don't win games is silly. I have no idea why you keep coming back to that well.

Nah. You keep adding irrelevant stuff to the argument because you can't support your initial one, like I don't support them signing big name players (you brought up Megatron), and I don't support the schemes (which Yardrat pointed out I do), and failing to recognize the role scheme played in the improvement of the defense in relation to how available players played in it, and how it just changed again.

I stated my points and arguments, you're just going to keep adding irrelevant stuff to keep obscuring yours to keep from admitting your arguments have major flaws. I can keep saying the same stuff different ways with different words, and you'll keep trying to add more smoke and mirrors. You're wasting my time.

Bottom line is that McCoy or Alonso will prove how the trade worked out, and it hasn't happened yet but will, so catch up with me at the end of the year and one of us will be right, and you'll have to admit it if it wasn't you, like I will if it wasn't me.

[Goobylal]

I supported my argument just fine. You were the one who had to resort to adding irrelevant stuff because you couldn't/can't bring yourself to admit the Bills traded an unneeded player for a star. What's more, you whipped out silly stuff like "dancing" and "arrogant" to describe McCoy and say it's useless to add great players, while claiming Alonso is a stud in the making based off of half a good season with a different team. Classic!

We'll definitely revisit this later. Most likely after the two teams face each other in game 12.

[Mace]

We'll definitely revisit this later. Most likely after the two teams face each other in game 12.

Works for me.

[SpikedLemonade]

Nice interception!!!

[streetkings01]

That boys good!

[Buffalogic]

Great in coverage but man he looks small. Great play right there.

[streetkings01]

Great in coverage but man he looks small. Great play right there.
Looks just like Keith Ellison ........doubt he holds up the entire season.

[Buffalogic]

Looks just like Keith Ellison ........doubt he holds up the entire season.

He's been destroyed tonight when a blocker gets on him..guy looks like a wr