So now the spin is Manuel got no coaching until this year? I don't believe so.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/06/12/bills-mailbag-by-vic-caruccilack-of-cap-puts-a-dent-in-spending/

From what I’ve heard from the current Bills coaching staff, Manuel has gotten minimal technical/mechanical guidance since arriving in Buffalo as a first-round draft pick. The opinion of the current coaches is that he pretty much has been on his own the past two years in developing his game. And that has been reflected in his performance through offseason workouts.

Someone lied here. I thought they gave Manuel a QB coach the 2nd year at least. Also, Marrone and Hackett at least developed a QB at Syracuse; I can't believe they would just draft a guy, gave instructions, and then let him rise and fall on his own without watching and correcting closely all the way.

Carucci wasn't here when manuel was drafted so maybe he didn't know first hand what happened here.

[MillsapsBillsFan]

I thought that the general consensus all along after Marone was fired was that Manuel didn't get coached the way he should have. Manuel never had a dedicated QB coach, it was Hackett the whole time. I'm not saying that EJ is just a good coach away from being our long-term starter, but I do think that our coaching staff may have had some play in stunting his development.

I have no idea how good of a coach Hackett is, but judging by the regression of our offense during his time here I would say that its at least plausible that Manuel didn't get the coaching that a rookie QB stepping into a starting role should get

[Night Train]

I heard there was a shooter from the grassy knoll.

It's all speculative filler which may/may not carry validity. I do know the kid Hackett playcalling was beyond terrible most games, so I can see Roman quickly IDing any limitations Manuel has and giving him a fighting chance to sink or swim over the next 2-3 months.

QB's can be ruined early on with no direction in their development. See Losman.

I honestly could care less about explanations now. New owner, coach and way of doing business ( I hope ). Put anyone at QB that can give us something and let's get this thing rolling.

[better days]

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/06/12/bills-mailbag-by-vic-caruccilack-of-cap-puts-a-dent-in-spending/

From what I’ve heard from the current Bills coaching staff, Manuel has gotten minimal technical/mechanical guidance since arriving in Buffalo as a first-round draft pick. The opinion of the current coaches is that he pretty much has been on his own the past two years in developing his game. And that has been reflected in his performance through offseason workouts.

Someone lied here. I thought they gave Manuel a QB coach the 2nd year at least. Also, Marrone and Hackett at least developed a QB at Syracuse; I can't believe they would just draft a guy, gave instructions, and then let him rise and fall on his own without watching and correcting closely all the way.

Carucci wasn't here when manuel was drafted so maybe he didn't know first hand what happened here.

So, we are supposed to take your opinion over the Bills Coaching staff?

[jimmifli]

Most QB coaches work almost exclusively on the playbook, reading defenses, progressions etc. Maybe some camp time gets spent on a little footwork but not much.

Isn't that why EJ went to Steve DeBerg's camp?

Anyways, he's learning a new offense, with new plays, progressions, responsibilities and strategies. Despite what this staff says, I doubt they are spending much time on mechanics.

[OpIv37]

Of course they are going to sah he received bad coaching.

They were handed a bad QB situation with no real opportunity to fix it. They need to keep player morale high and fans interested in the game. If they blame EJ's past failures on the previous coaches, it makes it seem as though the struggles were due to people who are no longer here and there is still hope for EJ to develop.

Maybe it's true, maybe they are grasping at straws. But the coaches and FO are going to say it anyway.

[trapezeus]

i think if:

1. the new offense is as run heavy as expected,
2. any qb play is really required to just get5-10 yard passes out consistently 15-20 time a game,

then one of these guys has to be consistent enough with the intermediary ball to open up the defense to let guys run as wanted.

[Meathead]

i wish somebody would have asked marrone why no qb coach that first season. seems like a ridiculously obvious question that afaik was never asked

youve got your shiny new highly drafted qb, a brand new offense, an offensive coordinator who is still waiting for his first chest hair ... and you decide to skip the qb coach entirely. so what do you know that all these hundreds of other nfl hcs who never went without a qb coach dont? what brew of magic do you hold where the actual name of the coach includes the position of the player who will define your success/failure at your job - and you dont even hire one!?!

marrone reeks of coaching arrogance and that always looked like exhibit A

[gr8slayer]

Wouldn't surprise me, the Bills have never been much for developing QB's.

[Strongman]

i wish somebody would have asked marrone why no qb coach that first season. seems like a ridiculously obvious question that afaik was never asked

youve got your shiny new highly drafted qb, a brand new offense, an offensive coordinator who is still waiting for his first chest hair ... and you decide to skip the qb coach entirely. so what do you know that all these hundreds of other nfl hcs who never went without a qb coach dont? what brew of magic do you hold where the actual name of the coach includes the position of the player who will define your success/failure at your job - and you dont even hire one!?!

marrone reeks of coaching arrogance and that always looked like exhibit A

I'd say it was more of a decision Littman made to save an extra buck.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

There's something to be said that too much coaching can be as bad as too little. An NFL QB already has so much to learn and manage that making him think about his mechanics at the same time can set everything back. That FSU reporter scouting sheet on Manuel said essentially the same thing, that you could see Fisher trying to instill mechanics in Manuel, but when the live bullets were firing Manuel would quickly regress to what felt natural. I don't know if it's even possible to make major changes to one's throwing mechanics at this age, but if it was I would think it would have to happen from the bench.

In the most charitable reading of the 2013 season, Marrone wanted Kolb to start and Manuel to learn from the bench for a year or two while breaking him into the league slowly. But even that required Kolb to stay healthy, something he had a long career proving he could not do, and made cutting Tarvaris Jackson one of the dumbest moves Marrone/Whaley ever made.

[Ed]

Marrone supposedly spent a lot of time working with the OL and our OL was terrible and only got worse. Fred Jackson and CJ Spiller both struggled and had poor seasons. They couldn't figure out how to use Stevie Johnson or Mike Williams effectively either. Why would anyone think that our QB's got good coaching under Marrone and his staff? Our offense did nothing well and no one got better. That's why they switched to Orton so quick. They needed someone with a lot of experience that they didn't have to teach/coach.

[better days]

Of course they are going to sah he received bad coaching.

They were handed a bad QB situation with no real opportunity to fix it. They need to keep player morale high and fans interested in the game. If they blame EJ's past failures on the previous coaches, it makes it seem as though the struggles were due to people who are no longer here and there is still hope for EJ to develop.

Maybe it's true, maybe they are grasping at straws. But the coaches and FO are going to say it anyway.

Not true. Rex & Roman could have said Marrone was right in benching EJ, that EJ is just not a GOOD QB & never will be a GOOD QB.

[WagonCircler]

Well the current Bills Head Coach has a spectacular record of expertise with QBs. Dirty Sanchez. Curious George. The Dog Murderer.

How could we possibly doubt his credibility on the subject?

[better days]

Well the current Bills Head Coach has a spectacular record of expertise with QBs. Dirty Sanchez. Curious George. The Dog Murderer.

How could we possibly doubt his credibility on the subject?

Well, despite those crappy QB's he had to work with, Rex took the Jets to the AFC CHAMPIONSHIP game two years in a row.

[Novacane]

Patience. We'll find out in a couple more months.

[Topas]

Well the current Bills Head Coach has a spectacular record of expertise with QBs. Dirty Sanchez. Curious George. The Dog Murderer.

How could we possibly doubt his credibility on the subject?

Funny. Who is Curious George? Is it Geno?

[WagonCircler]

Funny. Who is Curious George? Is it Geno?

#DeadRinger

[better days]

#DeadRinger

# RACIST

[WagonCircler]

# RACIST

Feel better?

[OpIv37]

Not true. Rex & Roman could have said Marrone was right in benching EJ, that EJ is just not a GOOD QB & never will be a GOOD QB.

This is naive. They may THINK that. They would never, ever say that to the media because it will dilute fan interest and hurt team morale. Not to mention it makes the team look even worse if they defend the coach who voluntarily left to take a lower position.

[Albany,n.y.]

I heard there was a shooter from the grassy knoll.

It's all speculative filler which may/may not carry validity. I do know the kid Hackett playcalling was beyond terrible most games, so I can see Roman quickly IDing any limitations Manuel has and giving him a fighting chance to sink or swim over the next 2-3 months.

QB's can be ruined early on with no direction in their development. See Losman.

I honestly could care less about explanations now. New owner, coach and way of doing business ( I hope ). Put anyone at QB that can give us something and let's get this thing rolling.

PLEASE!
JP Losman had one of the most respected QB coaches around, Sam Wyche. The only person who ruined JP Losman was JP Losman.

[swiper]

I thought that the general consensus all along after Marone was fired was that Manuel didn't get coached the way he should have. Manuel never had a dedicated QB coach, it was Hackett the whole time.\

You are 100% wrong.

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-hire-Todd-Downing-as-QBs-coach/4e99d111-68a8-40a9-8f80-a82acbda1ae5

[Jimkelly12203]

Not going to go out of my way to defend Manuel's play here.... But that being said would it shock ANYBODY if the bacon grease fire that was Doug Moron and his offensive football staff completely botched the development of Manuel? It certainly wouldn't shock me.

When we had Chan Gailey, the OL was a strength on this team to the tune of CJ Spiller averaging 5.5+ ypc one year. The immense drop off when Moron took over cannot be attributed solely to the loss of Andy Levitre. Particularly when he played horribly for the team he joined after leaving the Bills.

No... Marrone (Moron, whatever...) is a **** coach and human being. He did NOTHING to help this team other than hire back to back phenom DCs to coach our dream-team level talent on that side of the ball. Anything he touched went to ****.

Now, does this mean EJ is the next Steve Young? Most likely not. But i'm sure he's just a little bit better than the crap we've seen in his time here.

[Skooby]

Nothing like burying people from the past, it always brings a brighter light on yourself.

[Mace]

For the record here, it's not my opinion, it's just the record.

-they drafted developmental Manuel from a spread
-they had no qb coach, counted on Kolb who was dropped by a mat, Boy Hackett worked with QB's
-they gave Manuel, coming from a minimal read, spread, a hurry up with complex west coast style reads, use your legs
-then they didn't want him using his legs, but that was part of his college spread instinct
-2nd year, they slowed down the hurry up and hired one of the worst QB coaches, Downing, who actually presided over the regression of Stafford (good luck in Oakland, Todd)
-Orton pretty much ended up being the QB and QB coach if he felt like it, having major input

Back to Losman, they drafted him to be mobile, the statue Bledsoe was getting a beating, talking run and gun.
-his whole first year, Wyche talked about how they were trying to break him of his footwork to make him a pocket passer, sort of junking the concept they drafted him because he was mobile, suddenly they were trying to make him Bledsoe, who they were trying to replace because he was an immobile pocket passer, by taking a mobile guy and making him immobile
-no run and gun came of it, they tried making him into Bledsoe, which he wasn't
-there's no defending how Losman ended up, but his development was clearly screwed up, no doubt adding to his issues, no matter how they'd have turned out

Imagine if they'd have tried to make Orton run a read-option, or if they try this with Cassel, a play action midrange guy. But, they have the mobile Manuel and Taylor, hm, to make them play action midrange pocket passers after they were all about their mobility (Taylor is the fastest QB in the league, Rex says, Cassel sure isn't).

Conflicting philosophy doesn't help anything, imho. You either want a pocket guy, or a mobile one, and that's how you make your offense work for him, and then you coach him to that mindset, don't you ?

I honestly don't get how Cassel integrates with Manuel/Taylor in terms of offensive plan. Looks to me like they're putting all their eggs in 3 baskets (pocket play action Cassel, tweener Manuel, run around Taylor), and thinking to adjust it whoever ends up on top.

I'm not sure how it works out, but thank heavens it's not like the QB is actually meant to throw much under Roman.

[ghz in pittsburgh]

QBs are dummies moved around by QB coaches. I may argue 80-90% QB development is by himself in NFL. In the modern era, I don't think the top guys like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, even, Andrew Luck are getting much coaching. In the case of Brady, I highly doubt he got much being a 6th round guy behind Bledsoe.

The coaches' main job is to put the player at the best position to succeed. Of course they are going to point out things, putting drills up to help expand QB's game. I still think the qualitative leap comes from the players themselves.

Looking back on EJ, I see a guy more or less playing to himself 1st year within a downsized play book from the coaches, which is not a bad thing. The 2nd year is really a downer. He's clearly not ready for the expanded plays, along with instructions to curtail his running ability. So we saw an EJ who is not really himself. I suspect if marrone and Co. kept the 1st year approach but openning just a little more playbook, we may see EJ in a different light. However, there is always the possibility which all Bills fan are afraid of, is that what we saw of EJ is all he is capable.

We'll see what goes this year. I just don't think they can just throw the whole playbook at a guy like EJ and expect the world. Cassel, on the other hand, is a different story ...

[better days]

Feel better?

Not really. But now that you have outed yourself as a racist, your HATRED of EJ is more understandable.

[better days]

PLEASE!
JP Losman had one of the most respected QB coaches around, Sam Wyche. The only person who ruined JP Losman was JP Losman.

Wyche was a Coach on the Bills for only Losman's rookie year.

And he was OLD & had no voice for that year.

[MillsapsBillsFan]

You are 100% wrong.

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-hire-Todd-Downing-as-QBs-coach/4e99d111-68a8-40a9-8f80-a82acbda1ae5

I stand corrected. I looked at 2013 thinking it was last year. My apologies

[MillsapsBillsFan]

Even though he had a QB coach in his second year I still think that throwing him into the fire with an inexperienced Head Coach (No HC Experience at the NFL level) a super inexperienced OC/QB coach may have stunted his development some. Does this mean I think EJ could be way better? No, but it does mean that I think he could have been at least a little better if he was not put into an awful situation from day one (partially thanks to the walking glass sculpture Kevin Kolb)

[better days]

This is naive. They may THINK that. They would never, ever say that to the media because it will dilute fan interest and hurt team morale. Not to mention it makes the team look even worse if they defend the coach who voluntarily left to take a lower position.


Why not say EJ is a BUST if the Bills Coaches really believe that?

Fan interest would not be diluted at all with Cassel & Taylor on the team.

And neither would the team morale be hurt.

I know a number of people on this board would love to hear that Rex & Roman think EJ is a bust.

And Marrone did not leave the Bills to take a lower position.

Marrone thought he was going to get the HC job of the Jets when he left the Bills.

Karma is a *****.

[OpIv37]

You're crazy if you think fans would be on board with Cassell and Taylor. Only delusional homers are buying into that hype.

You're crazy if you don't think it would hurt the team morale to hear the coach publicly criticizing the presumed starter at QB who was a first round draft pick just two years ago.

[better days]

You're crazy if you think fans would be on board with Cassell and Taylor. Only delusional homers are buying into that hype.

You're crazy if you don't think it would hurt the team morale to hear the coach publicly criticizing the presumed starter at QB who was a first round draft pick just two years ago.

Do you even read this board?

A number of people on this board WANT EJ on the bench or GONE from the team.

IF EJ was REALLY viewed as a BUST, it would not hurt team morale at all to say so, the players would already KNOW it.

And in no way shape or form is EJ viewed as the presumed starter.

Rex has said it is an open competition for the starting QB job & that anyone could win it.

And some people on this board are calling for Cassel to be the starter while others are calling for Taylor to be the starter.

[OpIv37]

Of course Rex is going to say it's an open competition. Cassel is a back up at best, Taylor hasn't proven anything and Rex isn't going to hitch his wagon to someone else's draft pick who has already struggled.

You really just can't grasp the whole concept of public relations, can you?

[better days]

Of course Rex is going to say it's an open competition. Cassel is a back up at best, Taylor hasn't proven anything and Rex isn't going to hitch his wagon to someone else's draft pick who has already struggled.

You really just can't grasp the whole concept of public relations, can you?

You are ridiculous.

The FACT is The Bills Coaching staff has said they don't think EJ was Coached well by Marrone & his staff.

You can THINK that is public relations if you want.

But a number of people on this board have thought & said the same thing, including myself before it was said by the Bills Coaching staff.

[OpIv37]

You are ridiculous.

The FACT is The Bills Coaching staff has said they don't think EJ was Coached well by Marrone & his staff.

You can THINK that is public relations if you want.

But a number of people on this board have thought & said the same thing, including myself before it was said by the Bills Coaching staff.
I don't know if it is or if it isn't. All I know is that from a PR perspective, it is the ONLY thing they can say publicly. So they fact that they said it doesn't make it any more or less true. Coaches and GM's are not free to express their true opinions to the media.

[WagonCircler]

You are ridiculous.

The FACT is

17414

[Victor7]

Both sides of the argument are valid.

I mean EJ did have a rookie coach and a rookie OC to play for. Then again that doesn't mean its all Marrone's and Hackett's fault. Not being able to hit a wide open target has nothing to do with who coaches you. It just means you are not accurate which is EJ's main downfall.

That's why I try not to get too caught up in whether he was coached well or not. The guy is inaccurate. The love child of Bill Walsh, Joe Montana and Unitas couldn't coach that into Manuel or anyone else for that matter. Accuracy is something you either have or you don't.

And please nobody take this as me defending Doug Marrone or Hackett. I hate Douglas the quitter more than you imagine.

[better days]

I don't know if it is or if it isn't. All I know is that from a PR perspective, it is the ONLY thing they can say publicly. So they fact that they said it doesn't make it any more or less true. Coaches and GM's are not free to express their true opinions to the media.

The Bills Coaching staff did not have to say ANYTHING in regards to the Coaching EJ received in the past.

They could have said, we were not here to see how EJ was Coached before now, but we will Coach him up as best we can & it is up to him to improve.

That would have been a pr statement. There was no need to say EJ got terrible Coaching by Marrone & his staff if they did not think that.

[better days]

Both sides of the argument are valid.

I mean EJ did have a rookie coach and a rookie OC to play for. Then again that doesn't mean its all Marrone's and Hackett's fault. Not being able to hit a wide open target has nothing to do with who coaches you. It just means you are not accurate which is EJ's main downfall.

That's why I try not to get too caught up in whether he was coached well or not. The guy is inaccurate. The love child of Bill Walsh, Joe Montana and Unitas couldn't coach that into Manuel or anyone else for that matter. Accuracy is something you either have or you don't.

And please nobody take this as me defending Doug Marrone or Hackett. I hate Douglas the quitter more than you imagine.

Well, I don't buy the argument that accuracy can't be taught.

It is taught in MANY other realms from shooting a gun or bow & arrow to golf to pitching a baseball or shooting a hockey puck.

[mightysimi]

Well, I don't buy the argument that accuracy can't be taught.

It is taught in MANY other realms from shooting a gun or bow & arrow to golf to pitching a baseball or shooting a hockey puck.

The difference being that baseball pitchers and hockey players don't get anywhere near the show without a semblance of accuracy in place. This would be a great argument for a d-league.

[better days]

The difference being that baseball pitchers and hockey players don't get anywhere near the show without a semblance of accuracy in place. This would be a great argument for a d-league.

Well, Chris Simms says his brother Matt has a RARE arm.

It is STRONG so he can fire the ball downfield & he has accuracy like few other QB's in the NFL according to Chris.

Chris says Matt just needs some time to get the experience needed to play in the NFL.

[mightysimi]

Well, Chris Simms says his brother Matt has a RARE arm.

It is STRONG so he can fire the ball downfield & he has accuracy like few other QB's in the NFL according to Chris.

Chris says Matt just needs some time to get the experience needed to play in the NFL.

My mom thinks I'm great too.

[better days]

My mom thinks I'm great too.

No she doesn't.

She just tells you she does to keep up your self esteem.

[mightysimi]

No she doesn't.

She just tells you she does to keep up your self esteem.

Well your mom sure does. LOL

[better days]

Well your mom sure does. LOL

Necrophiliac.

[OpIv37]

The Bills Coaching staff did not have to say ANYTHING in regards to the Coaching EJ received in the past.

They could have said, we were not here to see how EJ was Coached before now, but we will Coach him up as best we can & it is up to him to improve.

That would have been a pr statement. There was no need to say EJ got terrible Coaching by Marrone & his staff if they did not think that.

The Bills coaches have to convince their fans and the team that they have a viable QB. The only way the Bills have a viable QB is if EJ's problems were due to poor coaching. So yes, they absolutely had to say something.

[better days]

The Bills coaches have to convince their fans and the team that they have a viable QB. The only way the Bills have a viable QB is if EJ's problems were due to poor coaching. So yes, they absolutely had to say something.

HOW is saying the JOB is open to ANYONE that wins the competition saying to anyone that the Bills have a viable QB?

Or that that QB is EJ Manuel?

[OpIv37]

HOW is saying the JOB is open to ANYONE that wins the competition saying to anyone that the Bills have a viable QB?

Or that that QB is EJ Manuel?

None of the QB's on our roster are proven. They'd look like complete idiots if they named any of them the starter without seeing them in camp first. You keep trying to make something out of generic coachspeak.

[mightysimi]

Necrophiliac.

Yikes sorry bad joke.

[Victor7]

Well, I don't buy the argument that accuracy can't be taught.

It is taught in MANY other realms from shooting a gun or bow & arrow to golf to pitching a baseball or shooting a hockey puck.

Gun, bow, arrow, hockey and golf all use an instrument, gun or whatever. That can be taught for sure. At the end of the day you are being assisted by something else. In football its you and the pigskin. You either have accuracy or you don't. EJ has none. Missing wide open guys with no pressure on is just not something that will get fixed IMO.

[WagonCircler]

Well, I don't buy the argument that accuracy can't be taught.

It is taught in MANY other realms from shooting a gun or bow & arrow to golf to pitching a baseball or shooting a hockey puck.

Bulls hit.

By your logic, you could take the kid behind the counter at 7-11 and TEACH him to throw a no-hitter.

We're talking about ELITE accuracy under unimaginable duress. EJ struggles MIGHTILY with muscle memory and mechanics, and he has since Pop Warner.

In order to be consistently accurate at the NFL level, those issues need to be second nature, because the mechanics have to be carried out while reading and analyzing Defensive schemes (that were designed to confuse you) while dodging giant, strong, fast men who are just as athletic as you are (unlike his days in college football).

And furthermore, mechanics aren't even the only factor. Some people just have better depth perception and hand eye coordination than others. These are gifts that those people are born with. EJ was not. At least not at the same level as someone like Drew Brees.

It is not going to happen for EJ. Not without a brain transplant.

[Victor7]

Bulls hit.

By your logic, you could take the kid behind the counter at 7-11 and TEACH him to throw a no-hitter.

We're talking about ELITE accuracy under unimaginable duress. EJ struggles MIGHTILY with muscle memory and mechanics, and he has since Pop Warner.

In order to be consistently accurate at the NFL level, those issues need to be second nature, because the mechanics have to be carried out while reading and analyzing Defensive schemes (that were designed to confuse you) while dodging giant, strong, fast men who are just as athletic as you are (unlike his days in college football).

And furthermore, mechanics aren't even the only factor. Some people just have better depth perception and hand eye coordination than others. These are gifts that those people are born with. EJ was not. At least not at the same level as someone like Drew Brees.

It is not going to happen for EJ. Not without a brain transplant.

Exactly. Its a gift some are born with and some are not.

Remember in the 90's how the NFL had a "Quarterback Challenge" each off season ? NFL qb's would go out and compete in 4 or 5 drills. One of those drills required them to hit moving targets with footballs that had the ends painted so they'd leave a mark. Sometimes it would be golf carts running up the field with baskets on them and the guys would try to fit the long throws in there. That's what I mean with accuracy. You could have EJ run those drills, no pressure, no pads, no nothing. Just him and the ball. He'd miss the mark more often than not. He's just not accurate. Now add to that 250 pound dudes trying to rip you apart and it gets even worse.

[better days]

Exactly. Its a gift some are born with and some are not.

Remember in the 90's how the NFL had a "Quarterback Challenge" each off season ? NFL qb's would go out and compete in 4 or 5 drills. One of those drills required them to hit moving targets with footballs that had the ends painted so they'd leave a mark. Sometimes it would be golf carts running up the field with baskets on them and the guys would try to fit the long throws in there. That's what I mean with accuracy. You could have EJ run those drills, no pressure, no pads, no nothing. Just him and the ball. He'd miss the mark more often than not. He's just not accurate. Now add to that 250 pound dudes trying to rip you apart and it gets even worse.

I have said it before, EJ has a problem with CONSISTENCY, not accuracy.

Youtube has highlights of EJ hitting accurate throws all over the field.

[OpIv37]

I have said it before, EJ has a problem with CONSISTENCY, not accuracy.

Youtube has highlights of EJ hitting accurate throws all over the field.

And I can show you highlight reels of JP Losman, Trent Edwards and Rob Johnson. Highlight reels are fun to watch but meaningless in terms of evaluating players.

[BillsImpossible]

EJ has not changed, unfortunately. He's still an inaccurate passer. I want the guy to succeed but do not think he's going to earn the starting job.

http://www.wgr550.com/QBs-take-step-forward-on-first-day-of-minicamp/21642110

However, he also short-armed a couple passes to the sideline, which has been a theme several times during these practices.

[BillsImpossible]

I have said it before, EJ has a problem with CONSISTENCY, not accuracy.

Youtube has highlights of EJ hitting accurate throws all over the field.

That's something spartacus would say. You're better than that.

I'm sorry better days, but EJ is consistently inaccurate and it has been, 'a theme several times during these practices.'

It's been a theme since Manuel played at Florida State.

[BertSquirtgum]

EJ has sucked. Very badly. Hopefully he can pull it together.

[better days]

That's something spartacus would say. You're better than that.

I'm sorry better days, but EJ is consistently inaccurate and it has been, 'a theme several times during these practices.'

It's been a theme since Manuel played at Florida State.

We will see what happens. EJ has all of TC to improve.

If he doesn't, it is on to Taylor or Cassel.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I have said it before, EJ has a problem with CONSISTENCY, not accuracy.

Youtube has highlights of EJ hitting accurate throws all over the field.

How can you have accuracy without consistency? You know what you call someone who can occasionally hit what they were aiming for? Inaccurate.

[JoeMama]

EJ's done in Buffalo.

Trust me.

I didn't bull**** any of you about Dwu Blumbo, JP Losman, Trent Edwards, or Ryan Fitzpatrick.

[better days]

How can you have accuracy without consistency? You know what you call someone who can occasionally hit what they were aiming for? Inaccurate.

OK, I get your point.

The question is how accurate or inaccurate EJ is.

EJ is not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady accurate, but unlike what some people are saying, he can hit the broad side of a barn.

EJ has a comp % of 58.6 he just need to hit a FEW more passes to hit 60% the average NFL rating.

I think it is very possible for him to do that.

[WagonCircler]

OK, I get your point.

The question is how accurate or inaccurate EJ is.

EJ is not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady accurate, but unlike what some people are saying, he can hit the broad side of a barn.

EJ has a comp % of 58.6 he just need to hit a FEW more passes to hit 60% the average NFL rating.

I think it is very possible for him to do that.

Either you're just being disingenuous or you don't even know how stupid this statement is.

If you chart the number of dump-offs, check downs and even passes thrown behind the line of scrimmage, EJ is off the charts on attempts per pass. Brady and Manning throw downfield and into traffic without a second thought.

A 60% accuracy rating doesn't mean jack **** when you're throwing 3 yard passes.

[better days]

Either you're just being disingenuous or you don't even know how stupid this statement is.

If you chart the number of dump-offs, check downs and even passes thrown behind the line of scrimmage, EJ is off the charts on attempts per pass. Brady and Manning throw downfield and into traffic without a second thought.

A 60% accuracy rating doesn't mean jack **** when you're throwing 3 yard passes.

You are being disingenuous or you never watch Manning & Brady play.

BOTH Peyton Manning & Tom Brady throw MANY MANY more SHORT dump-offs, check downs than they throw downfield.

[Mr. Pink]

The only part I will agree on about Manuel and the coaching is the fact they went to Kyle Orton and after a few weeks Orton started to look every bit as bad as Manuel did.

The QB Orton was before he came here and then the first weeks he played is not the QB he was at the end of the season.

Something had to happen to change that and the only thing I can think of is the coaching made their QBs play conservative and not to lose.

Still don't think EJ could hit sand if he fell off a camel though.

[WagonCircler]

You are being disingenuous or you never watch Manning & Brady play.

BOTH Peyton Manning & Tom Brady throw MANY MANY more SHORT dump-offs, check downs than they throw downfield.

EJ throws NOTHING BUT short dump offs, and he STILL can't break 60%.

That's what gets you benched for Kyle Orton.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

OK, I get your point.

The question is how accurate or inaccurate EJ is.

EJ is not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady accurate, but unlike what some people are saying, he can hit the broad side of a barn.

EJ has a comp % of 58.6 he just need to hit a FEW more passes to hit 60% the average NFL rating.

I think it is very possible for him to do that.


You are being disingenuous or you never watch Manning & Brady play.

BOTH Peyton Manning & Tom Brady throw MANY MANY more SHORT dump-offs, check downs than they throw downfield.

It's not just the completion % that matters, its the % by zone. Manning and Brady may throw a lot of short passes, but they hit them at an extremely high rate.

Manning in 2014: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/peyton-manning
Passes from 1-10 yards: 72.7% completion.

Brady in 2014: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/2330/tom-brady
1-10 yards: 69.3%

Manuel in 2014: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/15803/ej-manuel
1-10 yards: 56.4%

If you are going to throw short, you'd better hit the throw, and Manuel needs to improve that aspect a tremendous amount to be an NFL quality starter. (FWIW, Matt Cassel was 67.4 in 2012, the last time he was the opening day starter)

The numbers get even more dire when you look in the 11-20 yard range, the throws that really make a franchise QB.
Manning: 52.5%
Brady: 56.9%
Manuel: 37%
Cassel: 48.3%

Personally I think of Cam Newton as the Mendoza line of QB accuracy. Anywhere below him and they are a liability as a starter, no matter how well they do everything else. He was 62% short and 52% medium range.

[better days]

EJ throws NOTHING BUT short dump offs, and he STILL can't break 60%.

That's what gets you benched for Kyle Orton.

ANYONE can look at EJ highlights on youtube & watch the LONG passes EJ has completed to see this is disingenuous BS from a RACIST.

[mightysimi]

ANYONE can look at EJ highlights on youtube & watch the LONG passes EJ has completed to see this is disingenuous BS from a RACIST.

I bet there is equally as long a list of throws that weren't even in the playing field.

[better days]

I bet there is equally as long a list of throws that weren't even in the playing field.

Well, the point is EJ's 58.6 comp% includes a number of LONG throws.

And that comp% includes BOTH the completed passes & the misses.

So, if in fact a number of LONG throws weren't even in the playing field, that led to a reduced comp % for EJ.

[swiper]

It's not just the completion % that matters, its the % by zone. Manning and Brady may throw a lot of short passes, but they hit them at an extremely high rate.

Manning in 2014: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/1428/peyton-manning
Passes from 1-10 yards: 72.7% completion.

Brady in 2014: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/2330/tom-brady
1-10 yards: 69.3%

Manuel in 2014: http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/15803/ej-manuel
1-10 yards: 56.4%

If you are going to throw short, you'd better hit the throw, and Manuel needs to improve that aspect a tremendous amount to be an NFL quality starter. (FWIW, Matt Cassel was 67.4 in 2012, the last time he was the opening day starter)

The numbers get even more dire when you look in the 11-20 yard range, the throws that really make a franchise QB.
Manning: 52.5%
Brady: 56.9%
Manuel: 37%
Cassel: 48.3%

Personally I think of Cam Newton as the Mendoza line of QB accuracy. Anywhere below him and they are a liability as a starter, no matter how well they do everything else. He was 62% short and 52% medium range.

It's stuff that's obvious when you watch him play. It's painstakingly obvious. You see it. Wagoncircler sees it. There is a group of boneheads here that can't (you're conversing with one of the bigger ones). It's not being disingenuous. It's being fools. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are cool operators under pressure. Manuel panics and the outcome is poor. If a person calls himself a fan and cannot see that (or admit it to themselves & others) then they should go spend their time doing something else besides watching football.

[better days]

It's stuff that's obvious when you watch him play. It's painstakingly obvious. You see it. Wagoncircler sees it. There is a group of boneheads here that can't (you're conversing with one of the bigger ones). It's not being disingenuous. It's being fools. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are cool operators under pressure. Manuel panics and the outcome is poor. If a person calls himself a fan and cannot see that (or admit it to themselves & others) then they should go spend their time doing something else besides watching football.

Nobody is saying Tom Brady & Peyton Manning are not MUCH BETTER QB's than EJ.

But only a disingenuous AHOLE says EJ can't hit the broad side of a barn.

And in 2014, EJ played a total of FOUR GAMES. ANYONE can tell you that is a SMALL sample size.

[WagonCircler]

I bet there is equally as long a list of throws that weren't even in the playing field.

RACIST!!

- - - Updated - - -


Nobody is saying Tom Brady & Peyton Manning are not MUCH BETTER QB's than EJ..

Nobody but you.

You are THAT delusional.

[Victor7]

I have said it before, EJ has a problem with CONSISTENCY, not accuracy.

Youtube has highlights of EJ hitting accurate throws all over the field.

Well its a highlight reel. Its supposed to be just good plays.

Guess we'll agree to disagree

[Mace]

I'm still not so sure why anyone is getting that worked up over the QB's at this point in the offseason. The offense will not be riding any of their arms. It will be a handoff offense.

If any of them are so terrible they cannot be any good in a handoff offense, it will be obvious and not debatable. We'll know soon enough how badly we need a QB. Mean time, what we have is what we have in any case.

Couple diffs in thinking this Roman offense will be the 49'ers version (it won't be), if that's the hope. We don't have a Kaepernick, or a Harbaugh running the passing game, and McCoy is not a north-south Gore by nature.

Count on Roman's running game genius to get us to 2016, see how the QB's on hand do, and go from there. Wishing we had anyone else or getting sour on a not-passing offense QB this early is just getting aggravated ahead of time for the sake of it, imho.

[WagonCircler]

Joe Buscaglia's report from today:

1) An offensively offensive day

- When the Bills got to team drills, the offense couldn't get anything going. It didn't matter if it was a run or a pass, but it was the passing attack that couldn't get out of its own way. During team drills (11-on-11), the Bills attempted 22 drop-back passes, to which they only had four completions... total. The Bills quarterbacks, collectively, were sacked eight times by the defensive line and linebackers, and the completions only went for a total of 22 yards. Tyrod Taylor completed one pass for five yards, EJ Manuel had two completions for two yards, and Matt Simms had the other one, a 15-yard completion to Deonte Thompson. When they actually had the required time to throw a pass longer than five yards, with the exception of Simms' lone completion, the passes were all over the place. The offense will want to avert their eyes when they watch back the tape. A much better day is needed on Thursday, just for peace of mind.

EJ was accurate as HELL on those two one-yard strikes, though!!!

http://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/buscaglia-bills-minicamp-observations-day-2

[Mace]

Joe Buscaglia's report from today:

1) An offensively offensive day

- When the Bills got to team drills, the offense couldn't get anything going. It didn't matter if it was a run or a pass, but it was the passing attack that couldn't get out of its own way. During team drills (11-on-11), the Bills attempted 22 drop-back passes, to which they only had four completions... total. The Bills quarterbacks, collectively, were sacked eight times by the defensive line and linebackers, and the completions only went for a total of 22 yards. Tyrod Taylor completed one pass for five yards, EJ Manuel had two completions for two yards, and Matt Simms had the other one, a 15-yard completion to Deonte Thompson. When they actually had the required time to throw a pass longer than five yards, with the exception of Simms' lone completion, the passes were all over the place. The offense will want to avert their eyes when they watch back the tape. A much better day is needed on Thursday, just for peace of mind.

EJ was accurate as HELL on those two one-yard strikes, though!!!

http://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/buscaglia-bills-minicamp-observations-day-2

The Bills quarterbacks, collectively, were sacked eight times by the defensive line and linebackers

Well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, eventually, I suppose.
Made me laugh though.

[BillsImpossible]

I'm still not so sure why anyone is getting that worked up over the QB's at this point in the offseason. The offense will not be riding any of their arms. It will be a handoff offense.

So true. The Bills are going to be a running team, quarterback included.

[BillsImpossible]

The Bills quarterbacks, collectively, were sacked eight times by the defensive line and linebackers

Well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, eventually, I suppose.Made me laugh though.

I wonder who got sacked the most and who got sacked the least?

I wonder why the article didn't mention that.

I think the QB that can run the most and avoid the pass rush the best is going to win the starting job.

[Mace]

I think the QB that can run the most and avoid the pass rush the best is going to win the starting job.

I don't have a clue. I still think the one who can hand off the best and complete 10 timely passes a game will get the starting job. Don't have a clue which one will do that either.

[better days]

Well this would be a cause of some concern if the Bills had a CRAP Defense.

But since the Bills have a GREAT defense & the offense is just getting its feet wet learning a totally new system, Don't worry be happy.

[BertSquirtgum]

EJ has sucked. How anyone can't admit that fact is beyond stupid or stubborn or both? We have seen some flashes of great. For every flash of great there are 10 plays that make you want to smash your head with a hammer.

[Bill Cody]

EJ has sucked. How anyone can't admit that fact is beyond stupid or stubborn or both? We have seen some flashes of great. For every flash of great there are 10 plays that make you want to smash your head with a hammer.

Pretty sure you acted on the impulse

[BertSquirtgum]

Pretty sure you acted on the impulse

Pretty sure your posts are worthless.

[Mace]

Pretty sure your posts are worthless.

You have to admit Cody had a good one there.

[BertSquirtgum]

You have to admit Cody had a good one there.

No

[swiper]

I continue to be mesmerized by that avatar.

[Meathead]

i get that a lot