Doug Whaley Was Right, EJ Manuel Should Have Started All 16 Games Last Year

[BillsImpossible]

Hindsight is 20/20, crystal clear vision.

Doug Whaley had it right. The Bills should have let EJ start all 16 games in 2014.

The team would be better off today if Orton never stepped on the field.

Doug Marrone wanted no part in the development of EJ Manuel last year.

Whaley deserves credit for being right.

The Bills would be more ahead of the game today if Marrone stuck to the team's game plan instead of going rogue and abusing his power.

[Thurmal]

I don't know; I kinda enjoyed not completely sucking ass for once.

[Ginger Vitis]

You made your point in the other thread.. No need for this one hence why many consider you to be "thread obsessed"

[Mr. Pink]

Why? So they'd be one year closer to realizing he sucks and needs to be replaced?

Shouldn't they have already figured that out?

[Skooby]

EJ is never going to start an NFL game again.

[better days]

I don't know; I kinda enjoyed not completely sucking ass for once.

Yeah, it was great watching Orton slide short of a first down to lose a game or to watch Orton lose to the Raiders.

A team that beat only two other teams besides the Bills.

[Ed]

I don't know; I kinda enjoyed not completely sucking ass for once.
You can thank the defense for that. Not Kyle Orton.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Naturally Bills impossible is relying on 20/20 hindsight, because during the season he was backing Kyle Orton.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/226414-The-Buffalo-Bills-Would-Be-2-5-Without-Kyle-Orton-Only-Kelly-Surpasses-Him

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/225933-Kyle-Orton-s-Career-Stats

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/226420-Kyle-Orton-s-Ultimate-Revenge-My-NFL-Dream-Scenario

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php/226911-Sign-Kyle-Orton-To-A-3-Year-Contract-ASAP


I'll grant you that Manuel should have started week 17 after we were eliminated (though beating even a half-strength Pats team was still nice), but there was no way we should have rode him the whole season. He was a complete disaster in Houston.

[Novacane]

Did Whaley really say that?

[ParanoidAndroid]

The Bills were a playoff team with Orton. EJ was not playing well at all, or did we forget that already? We wanted to win games.

[Ingtar33]

its almost like i'm in bizzaro world and people don't recall anything ej had done and what the team was doing when he was starter.

This team would have gone 5-11 or 6-10 last year with ej under center for the full season. had that happened Whaley and EJ would be on the street corner today and we definitely would be moaning about our lack of talent at QB, and likely probably wouldn't have got Rex, as the defense probably would have stopped playing hard at some point in the season and would have fallen off the cliff.

orton wasn't worth much, but he did land us our first winning season in almost a decade, and gave us and his teamates a glimmer of hope and something to play for in December.

[better days]

The Bills were a playoff team with Orton. EJ was not playing well at all, or did we forget that already? We wanted to win games.

EJ was 2-2.

Orton was 7-5 but would have been 6-6 if the Pats* played their starters in the last game.

The Bills were NOT a playoff team with Orton, you are delusional.

[Bill Cody]

its almost like i'm in bizzaro world and people don't recall anything ej had done and what the team was doing when he was starter.

This team would have gone 5-11 or 6-10 last year with ej under center for the full season. had that happened Whaley and EJ would be on the street corner today and we definitely would be moaning about our lack of talent at QB, and likely probably wouldn't have got Rex, as the defense probably would have stopped playing hard at some point in the season and would have fallen off the cliff.

orton wasn't worth much, but he did land us our first winning season in almost a decade, and gave us and his teamates a glimmer of hope and something to play for in December.

I see that argument and it has some truth to it. But on the other hand I can't help but feel "so what" about what we did last year. I think Orton did get us an extra couple games but we weren't really close to the playoffs and now Orton's retired, not that he was ever going to win us anything. Yeah EJ wasn't good. But we'd sure know a lot more about him now if he had continued to play wouldn't we? The sample size on a guy that came here with obvious holes in his game is still small. Is he worthless? Some have already decided he is. I'm not smart enough to know that. I doubt Castle or Tie Rod is the answer. So what really did those extra couple games do for us going forward? Orton was a small band aid on a huge gash. And now the band aid is off. Should I be excited yet?

[Bill Cody]

The Bills were a playoff team with Orton.

Let me think about that.....ummm........no. Orton did what Orton does, win about half his games. That isn't playoffs.

[better days]

its almost like i'm in bizzaro world and people don't recall anything ej had done and what the team was doing when he was starter.

This team would have gone 5-11 or 6-10 last year with ej under center for the full season. had that happened Whaley and EJ would be on the street corner today and we definitely would be moaning about our lack of talent at QB, and likely probably wouldn't have got Rex, as the defense probably would have stopped playing hard at some point in the season and would have fallen off the cliff.

orton wasn't worth much, but he did land us our first winning season in almost a decade, and gave us and his teamates a glimmer of hope and something to play for in December.

I will give Orton credit for the Lions win, but nothing else.

I also blame Orton for the Raiders loss.

I think the Bills would have had pretty much the same record with EJ starting the entire season.

[feldspar]

The Bills did the right thing starting Orton last year. I said it then, and I still believe that without reservation. If Orton didn't retire, he'd probably be re-signed in Buffalo as the hands-on favorite to start this year and Matt Cassel wouldn't be here.

If you wanna play the hindsight game, there is a great chance that EJ doesn't even start his rookie year if Kevin Kolb doesn't get hurt.

If EJ learned some thing being on the bench, then all the more power to him.

As we all know, looks like the QB(s) will make or break us this year. Gotta get lucky with injuries (or lack thereof) as well.

[trapezeus]

its almost like i'm in bizzaro world and people don't recall anything ej had done and what the team was doing when he was starter.

This team would have gone 5-11 or 6-10 last year with ej under center for the full season. had that happened Whaley and EJ would be on the street corner today and we definitely would be moaning about our lack of talent at QB, and likely probably wouldn't have got Rex, as the defense probably would have stopped playing hard at some point in the season and would have fallen off the cliff.

orton wasn't worth much, but he did land us our first winning season in almost a decade, and gave us and his teamates a glimmer of hope and something to play for in December.

but you would have had everyone beyond this point of arguing for EJ. if he had a 5-11 season, the ej experiement would be finished. however, it wouldn't have mattered because we didn't have a first round pick, and therefore no ammunition to do anything about it.

but now we still have a great defense, one year older and we are stuck with only hope and wishes that a qb can be servicable. And if that servicable qb is cassel, he might get us into the playoffs, but he's not the answer. and we'll have been too good again to draft a good qb.

[justasportsfan]

EJ was 2-2.

Orton was 7-5 but would have been 6-6 if the Pats* played their starters in the last game.

The Bills were NOT a playoff team with Orton, you are delusional.

I would argue that we could've won the texans game if Orton was the qb

[better days]

but you would have had everyone beyond this point of arguing for EJ. if he had a 5-11 season, the ej experiement would be finished. however, it wouldn't have mattered because we didn't have a first round pick, and therefore no ammunition to do anything about it.

but now we still have a great defense, one year older and we are stuck with only hope and wishes that a qb can be servicable. And if that servicable qb is cassel, he might get us into the playoffs, but he's not the answer. and we'll have been too good again to draft a good qb.

If Marrone had played EJ in the last game against the Pats* scrubs, we would have known more than we do.

If EJ had lost to the Pats* scrubs, it would have been impossible to defend him.

If he won that game, it would have been well, he showed something against the scrubs.

[better days]

I would argue that we could've won the texans game if Orton was the qb

How can you argue that when the Raiders destroyed him?

Watt would have planted Orton & EJ would have started the rest of the season is the more likely outcome IMO.

[justasportsfan]

How can you argue that when the Raiders destroyed him?

Watt would have planted Orton & EJ would have started the rest of the season is the more likely outcome IMO.

because we were playing texans at home. EJ was horrible at home.

While it's not completely his fault, Ej was a scared qb thanks to Marrone. Even Ej himself admitted he was playing scared.

[better days]

because we were playing texans at home. EJ was horrible at home.

While it's not completely his fault, Ej was a scared qb thanks to Marrone. Even Ej himself admitted he was playing scared.

EJ was 1-1 at home & beat the Fins 29-10.

But I agree, Marrone had EJ playing scared.

They say a team takes on the personality of its HC.

I am looking forward to the Bills playing like a Rex Ryan Coached team.

[justasportsfan]

EJ was 1-1 at home & beat the Fins 29-10.



I meant that day. He was horrible vs. the texans and I doubt Orton would've been as bad at Buffalo. Ej actually managed to play worse than Fitz.

[swiper]

EJ Manuel sucks and should never play another game in Bills uniform. Fact.

[notacon]

Hindsight is 20/20, crystal clear vision.

Doug Whaley had it right. The Bills should have let EJ start all 16 games in 2014.

The team would be better off today if Orton never stepped on the field.

Doug Marrone wanted no part in the development of EJ Manuel last year.

Whaley deserves credit for being right.

The Bills would be more ahead of the game today if Marrone stuck to the team's game plan instead of going rogue and abusing his power.

"Hindsight is 20/20, crystal clear vision."?!?!?! :rofl: Some of us had it right in real time. Orson sucks...he has always sucked....and he would continue to suck if he played ever again.

I was vilified and mocked, at the time, for stating the obvious.

[sudzy]

The only positives to starting EJ all 16 games last year is maybe everyone would have ran out of excuses for why he sucks and we could have moved on. This is basically the same conversations we had last year. But, he's only started 10 games... but, he's only started 14 games... the coach is holding him back.... the RT is not doing his job. I've seen him overthrow enough RBs on screens with no pressure to know EJ sucks.

[Albany,n.y.]

because we were playing texans at home. EJ was horrible at home.

While it's not completely his fault, Ej was a scared qb thanks to Marrone. Even Ej himself admitted he was playing scared.

Since when is a game played in Houston a Bills' home game? The Pegulas kept the team in Buffalo, nobody moved them to Houston.

I'm shocked nobody brought this up earlier in the day.

[BillsImpossible]

Did Whaley really say that?

When Whaley and Marrone got in to a heated, "discussion," on the sidelines at training camp last year, it was about the quarterbacks.

They may have been arguing over whose wife makes the better cupcakes, but I don't think that was the case.

I supported Marrone at the time, but must admit that it was the wrong thing to do. They should have let EJ play, and let him learn.

Orton started strong and finished weak.

Manuel started okay and never got a chance to finish after getting yanked at 2-2.

A lot of good and some great quarterbacks weren't very good or great in their first 2 years in the NFL.

Eli Manning, John Elway, Drew Brees, Troy Aikman, and even Jim Kelly makes that list with many more.

There is still such a thing as, "developing a quarterback," in the NFL today, but it has taken a backseat to the instant gratification successes of Kaepernick, Wilson, and not much else.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

because we were playing texans at home. EJ was horrible at home.

Both the Texans' and Raiders' games were on the road.

[better days]

Since when is a game played in Houston a Bills' home game? The Pegulas kept the team in Buffalo, nobody moved them to Houston.

I'm shocked nobody brought this up earlier in the day.

I brought it up in post # 22, I guess you have me on ignore.

[ParanoidAndroid]

EJ was 2-2.

Orton was 7-5 but would have been 6-6 if the Pats* played their starters in the last game.

The Bills were NOT a playoff team with Orton, you are delusional.

Orton beats the Chargers at home (EJ couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that game) and the Texans. Add that we fumbled the Chiefs game away. It was like night and day when Orton took over. They had a chance to make the playoffs with Orton and if he starts the season, they may have made it. The delusion is blaming everyone but EJ for the way EJ played.

[better days]

Orton beats the Chargers at home (EJ couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that game) and the Texans. Add that we fumbled the Chiefs game away. It was like night and day when Orton took over. They had a chance to make the playoffs with Orton and if he starts the season, they may have made it. The delusion is blaming everyone but EJ for the way EJ played.

Orton couldn't beat the 3-13 Raiders.

Don't tell me he could beat the Chargers or Texans.

Watt would have destroyed Orton.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Orton couldn't beat the 3-13 Raiders.

Don't tell me he could beat the Chargers or Texans.

Watt would have destroyed Orton.

How did he beat the Packers then?

[better days]

How did he beat the Packers then?

The Defense beat the Packers.

EJ could have won that game as well the way the defense played in that game.

[Joe Fo Sho]

The Defense beat the Packers.

EJ could have won that game as well the way the defense played in that game.

Ha, you mean the same guy that was directly responsible for losing to the Texans? The defense played well enough to win that game, how come we lost?

I'm not saying Orton is great or even good, but you can't just blindly say that EJ would've performed as well as him.

[kishoph]

Orton beats the Chargers at home (EJ couldn't hit the broad side of a barn that game) and the Texans. Add that we fumbled the Chiefs game away. It was like night and day when Orton took over. They had a chance to make the playoffs with Orton and if he starts the season, they may have made it. The delusion is blaming everyone but EJ for the way EJ played.

The Brown fumble was costly but it came on the 1st drive of the second half with the Bills up 10-3, the Bills had chances to do something the rest of the second half and managed only 3 points. With 4 1/2 minutes left down by 4, the Bills got the ball on the KC 25 and came away empty ending with 4 incomplete passes by Orton from the KC 15 yd. line. The Bills also failed to take advantage of a fumble recovery at the KC 31, late in the 2nd quarter coming away with only a FG. When the game is on the line and you have the ball in the oppositions red zone, you can't end the drive with 4 incomplete passes and not take any responsibility for the loss. That loss was as much on Orton's inability as it was Brown's fumble. IMO

[better days]

Ha, you mean the same guy that was directly responsible for losing to the Texans? The defense played well enough to win that game, how come we lost?

I'm not saying Orton is great or even good, but you can't just blindly say that EJ would've performed as well as him.

Read the article How A Rookie Head Coach Derailed a Rookie Quarterback.

EJ outperformed Orton when he was given the chance to do so.

[Bill Cody]

Ha, you mean the same guy that was directly responsible for losing to the Texans? The defense played well enough to win that game, how come we lost?

I'm not saying Orton is great or even good, but you can't just blindly say that EJ would've performed as well as him.

The JJ Watt play was bad on EJ but Watt may be the only player in the league that makes it. He is better than any player I have ever seen at deflecting passes and picking them off, just freakish. That play completely turned the game. I think Orton was better overall last year but he's a veteran with tons of experience, that's the reason he's better. Natural ability? I'd give the edge to EJ. The question with EJ is, will he get enough chances to get it before he gets benched permanently? Or will he ever get it? Sometimes these things work themselves out. Orton was 3rd string way back when in Chicago and they turned to him due to injuries and ineffectiveness and he won games, not in a flashy way but he won games. And that got him more chances.

[JoeMama]

It's funny how saying Kyle Orton was above average is tantamount to saying he's a first ballot HOF'er to the EJ fans.

Orton was okay, slightly above average, good enough etc etc, to eek out a winning season with a stud defense.

And that's something -- unfortunately -- that EJ showed us he wouldn't be able to accomplish based on his four games starting where he regressed each game.

But on the bright side, the job is now EJ's to lose if he wants it. And if he's up to the challenge, he's got an amazing D and an amazing RB to take the pressure off him. If he starts, there's no excuse for us NOT to be 10-6 and in contention for a wild card.

Basically any QB we start should get us to 10-6 if they're not complete losers.

But that's up for debate...

[Historian]

If we don't win nine games, I don't think Ryan comes here.

JMO.

[JoeMama]

If we don't win nine games, I don't think Ryan comes here.

JMO.

If we don't win 10 games, something is seriously ****ing wrong with this franchise.

There's no excuse for a team this loaded on D and this loaded at RB/WR/TE to remain mired in mediocrity anymore.

The only way we miss the playoffs is if it turns out our QB's are Bubby Brister level bad and Rex Ryan is Rich Kotite level bad.

Failure this season would be more painful than any other failure over the past 15 years, in my most humble opinion.

[Joe Fo Sho]

The JJ Watt play was bad on EJ but Watt may be the only player in the league that makes it. He is better than any player I have ever seen at deflecting passes and picking them off, just freakish. That play completely turned the game. I think Orton was better overall last year but he's a veteran with tons of experience, that's the reason he's better. Natural ability? I'd give the edge to EJ. The question with EJ is, will he get enough chances to get it before he gets benched permanently? Or will he ever get it? Sometimes these things work themselves out. Orton was 3rd string way back when in Chicago and they turned to him due to injuries and ineffectiveness and he won games, not in a flashy way but he won games. And that got him more chances.

No one is denying that Watt is a freak, he's the best defensive player in the game right now no doubt. However, he's far from the only defensive lineman who has caught his own deflected pass. EJ should not have thrown that ball how he did and it cost us the game.

I'm rooting for EJ to turn it around as much as anybody. EJ becoming the franchise QB that this team needs is the quickest way this team will become a contender. I still think it was the right decision to start Orton last year and I'm glad we did it.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Read the article How A Rookie Head Coach Derailed a Rookie Quarterback.

EJ outperformed Orton when he was given the chance to do so.

My only point is that you have to give Orton some credit for what he did last year. I get it that he lost to the Raiders, but he also beat some good teams. The Lions team that he threw for over 300 yards against was the number 1 defense in the league at that point.

[better days]

My only point is that you have to give Orton some credit for what he did last year. I get it that he lost to the Raiders, but he also beat some good teams. The Lions team that he threw for over 300 yards against was the number 1 defense in the league at that point.

I have said before, I will give Orton credit for that game.

But I think EJ would have had as good a record as Orton did if he was allowed to play.

It will be interesting to see what happens this year.

[Bill Cody]

No one is denying that Watt is a freak, he's the best defensive player in the game right now no doubt. However, he's far from the only defensive lineman who has caught his own deflected pass. EJ should not have thrown that ball how he did and it cost us the game.
watch the play on youtube. I already said it was bad on EJ but Watt made a superman play on the ball.


I'm rooting for EJ to turn it around as much as anybody. EJ becoming the franchise QB that this team needs is the quickest way this team will become a contender. I still think it was the right decision to start Orton last year and I'm glad we did it.

The only way that move would have made me feel like it was worth it is if we made the playoffs. I'm of the belief that there are only two categories: in and out. Out is useless. This team carries literally NOTHING forward from last year, the QB retired and we have a new coaching staff. If we had finished 5-11 with EJ and he still was having the exact same issues at the end of the season we'd know he was a bust. That's useful information. If he had gone 8-8 (which is really what Orton did since the last game would have been a loss if NE needed it) then I'd be a hell of a lot more excited about this year. As it is (to me at least) EJ is still a question mark. People keep talking about 10 wins. That's basically impossible without decent to good QB play in today's league. And I have no idea where we'll get that. Do you?

[Joe Fo Sho]

watch the play on youtube. I already said it was bad on EJ but Watt made a superman play on the ball.

Good for JJ. Our QB shouldn't have given him the opportunity to make such a play.


The only way that move would have made me feel like it was worth it is if we made the playoffs. I'm of the belief that there are only two categories: in and out. Out is useless. This team carries literally NOTHING forward from last year, the QB retired and we have a new coaching staff.

Literally nothing? Literally? I hope you're joking. Seems to me like our top 5 defense is carrying forward this year, as well as probably about 40 (or more?) players in total that had a winning season with us last year.


If we had finished 5-11 with EJ and he still was having the exact same issues at the end of the season we'd know he was a bust. That's useful information. If he had gone 8-8 (which is really what Orton did since the last game would have been a loss if NE needed it) then I'd be a hell of a lot more excited about this year.

So if EJ went 6-10, how does that put us in a better position? If we knew EJ was a bust, would we have magically been able to get a franchise QB this offseason?


As it is (to me at least) EJ is still a question mark. People keep talking about 10 wins. That's basically impossible without decent to good QB play in today's league. And I have no idea where we'll get that. Do you?

I don't know what you're asking me. Do I think that we have a good QB? No. Do I expect to be in the playoff hunt in December? Yes. Do I know exactly how that's going to happen? No, nobody does. I would imagine it would have something to do with Rex coaching a top defense as well as an improved running game.

With an average QB and a top defense, I think it's possible the Bills can win against the following teams this year:

Miami
NYG
Tennessee
Cincinnati
Jacksonville
NYJ
Kansas City
Houston
Philadelphia
Washington

That's a potential for 10-12 wins just because we play Miami and the Jets twice. I'm not saying that these teams are guaranteed wins, but I don't think it's out of the question that we can compete with them.

Like I said, my expectations for this year is not 10-12 wins, it's to be in the playoff hunt come week 17. I'd rather go 9-7 and miss the playoffs than win 5 games and get a high draft pick.

[Mr. Pink]

If we don't win 10 games, something is seriously ****ing wrong with this franchise.

There's no excuse for a team this loaded on D and this loaded at RB/WR/TE to remain mired in mediocrity anymore.

The only way we miss the playoffs is if it turns out our QB's are Bubby Brister level bad and Rex Ryan is Rich Kotite level bad.

Failure this season would be more painful than any other failure over the past 15 years, in my most humble opinion.

Sure there is, and this team won't win 10 games.

No QB.

[JoeMama]

Sure there is, and this team won't win 10 games.

No QB.

No kidding.

But even a pedestrian QB should be able to win in Buffalo.

Sadly, even asking for pedestrian results from our QB's may be too ambitious.

[better days]

No one is denying that Watt is a freak, he's the best defensive player in the game right now no doubt. However, he's far from the only defensive lineman who has caught his own deflected pass. EJ should not have thrown that ball how he did and it cost us the game.

I'm rooting for EJ to turn it around as much as anybody. EJ becoming the franchise QB that this team needs is the quickest way this team will become a contender. I still think it was the right decision to start Orton last year and I'm glad we did it.

Well, Russell Wilson shouldn't have thrown that terrible pass to lose the Super Bowl.

Does doing that make Wilson a terrible QB?

And I was happy to watch Orton win against the Lions but his play did not improve from that game on, it got worse.

[trapezeus]

If we don't win nine games, I don't think Ryan comes here.

JMO.

why is that? the d would have still been dominant. ryan still sees that as clear as day. and frankly, it makes the transition even easier. to take a poorly managed 6-10 team with a stud defense, ryan has to think he can turn it around and deliver 9-7 and get people excited.

[trapezeus]

If we don't win 10 games, something is seriously ****ing wrong with this franchise.

There's no excuse for a team this loaded on D and this loaded at RB/WR/TE to remain mired in mediocrity anymore.

The only way we miss the playoffs is if it turns out our QB's are Bubby Brister level bad and Rex Ryan is Rich Kotite level bad.

Failure this season would be more painful than any other failure over the past 15 years, in my most humble opinion.

don't forget, last year was the first season where we weren't really crushed with injuries. i fully expect the injury bug to be back. or at least be worse than last year.

[trapezeus]

orton also made that horrid pass to Watkins who makes an incredible play on the ball and they boot a 50+ FG to win. so not really an amazing QB drive to make it happen.

If we are going to ding EJ for being a young qb making a bad read on a screen pass that they had run ad nasuem up to that point, then you have to ding orton for throwing a poorly placed ball in the middle of the field. yeah, orton's play worked and ej's didn't, but it could have easily been flip flopped. orton could have thrown incomplete and ended a game that they should have won and EJ could have methodically kept a game they were winning in our grasp.

it's a game of inches for a reason.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Well, Russell Wilson shouldn't have thrown that terrible pass to lose the Super Bowl.

Right, it cost them the game. Same as EJ against the Texans.


Does doing that make Wilson a terrible QB?

Does losing to the Raiders mean that Orton is unable to beat any NFL team in the league?


And I was happy to watch Orton win against the Lions but his play did not improve from that game on, it got worse.

Yup.

[Joe Fo Sho]

orton also made that horrid pass to Watkins who makes an incredible play on the ball and they boot a 50+ FG to win. so not really an amazing QB drive to make it happen.

I thought Orton called a hot read at the line during that play and Sammy was in the wrong place. Luckily he's athletic enough to make the catch, but if he didn't that would've been on him not Orton.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Sure there is, and this team won't win 10 games.

No QB.

You can absolutely win 10 games with a weak QB, considering the defensive and skill position talent we have. Both Rex Ryan and Chip Kelly have won 10+ with Mark Sanchez under center, the Vikings won 10 games with Christian Ponder, etc.

It doesn't mean we'll even make the playoffs or get anywhere if we do, but 10 wins is very much in play.

[Bill Cody]

Good for JJ. Our QB shouldn't have given him the opportunity to make such a play.
All I'm saying is JJ Watt made an amazing play that virtually nobody but him makes. EJ messed up but QB's make tons of mistakes, even the great ones, not many of them get taken to the house.




Literally nothing? Literally? I hope you're joking. Seems to me like our top 5 defense is carrying forward this year, as well as probably about 40 (or more?) players in total that had a winning season with us last year.



So if EJ went 6-10, how does that put us in a better position? If we knew EJ was a bust, would we have magically been able to get a franchise QB this offseason?

I swear to God you're either really dense or you just like arguing for arguing's sake, my guess is some of each. What I'm saying is there is 0.0 carryover benefit OF AN EXTRA COUPLE WINS THAT DID NOT NET A TEAM A PLAYOFF SPOT. We have assets going into this year of course. But we'd have them if we went 6-10 or 9-7. Nothing changed for this year because of those extra wins. Nothing. But what did change is EJ has less experience then he would have if he played, fact, and that would either help him progress or save the team from wasting more time on him (an undeniable benefit). No it doesn't get us a franchise QB but we'd know more than we know now. You want to pretend that doesn't matter, cool beans.




I don't know what you're asking me.



Let's just drop it.

[Bill Cody]

You can absolutely win 10 games with a weak QB, considering the defensive and skill position talent we have. Both Rex Ryan and Chip Kelly have won 10+ with Mark Sanchez under center, the Vikings won 10 games with Christian Ponder, etc.

It doesn't mean we'll even make the playoffs or get anywhere if we do, but 10 wins is very much in play.

You'd need more from EJ than he showed last year to approach March Sanchez or Ponder, assuming he's the QB. More from Castle than he's shown recently also. You need at the very least decent QB play to get 10 wins. Period.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I swear to God you're either really dense or you just like arguing for arguing's sake, my guess is some of each. What I'm saying is there is 0.0 carryover benefit OF AN EXTRA COUPLE WINS THAT DID NOT NET A TEAM A PLAYOFF SPOT. We have assets going into this year of course. But we'd have them if we went 6-10 or 9-7. Nothing changed for this year because of those extra wins. Nothing. But what did change is EJ has less experience then he would have if he played, fact, and that would either help him progress or save the team from wasting more time on him (an undeniable benefit). No it doesn't get us a franchise QB but we'd know more than we know now. You want to pretend that doesn't matter, cool beans.

You actually have no idea if we'd be in the same position we'd be in if we went 6-10 instead of 9-7, you're just assuming...maybe because you want to argue like you're accusing of me.

Would Marrone have quit if we went 6-10? His stock would not have been that high and maybe he wouldn't have assumed he could get the Jets job. I think he stays if we had a losing season.

Even if Marrone left, would Rex want to come to a 6-10 team that hasn't been to the playoffs in 15 years? Especially knowing that we have to play his old team and the Patriots twice a year? Maybe, maybe not.

Would Jerry Hughes re-sign with a team that finished in the bottom of the league? I don't know and neither do you.

My point is that you can't say that there's 0.0 difference between a 9-7 season and 6-10 or 4-12 season because you don't make the playoffs. That's a ridiculous notion, there could actually be a huge difference.


Let's just drop it.

Cool beans.

[swiper]

You'd need more from EJ than he showed last year to approach March Sanchez or Ponder, assuming he's the QB. More from Castle than he's shown recently also. You need at the very least decent QB play to get 10 wins. Period.

Einstein has spoken.

[BillsImpossible]

don't forget, last year was the first season where we weren't really crushed with injuries. i fully expect the injury bug to be back. or at least be worse than last year.

The Bills Head Strength and Conditioning coach (hired in 2010) Eric Ciano and his assistants, Dan Liburg (hired in 2009) and Hal Luther (hired last year) have done an excellent job keeping the Bills healthy.

I think the Bills will be one of the least injured team's in the NFL because of those guys.

[Mace]

Ha, you mean the same guy that was directly responsible for losing to the Texans? The defense played well enough to win that game, how come we lost?

I don't know, from the game I remember, it was that we lost to the Houston JJ Watt'ses.

If I was going to take a wild guess, I'd say it was because we ridiculously forgot they had a JJ Watts, took no measures to account for him, and tried to pretend he wasn't even there once he started predictably running wild.

If you watched that game, it was insane, they kept running generic offense, like maybe Watts' would disappear and they didn't need to worry about him because if they passed, maybe Jackson would pick him up and a couple times he even did.

Besides that though, it was like no one even had a clue they had a JJ Watts, and Peyton Manning in his prime would barely have managed his last "Omaha" with that game plan before wearing Watts yet again like a cheap suit in the rain.

That game was ridiculous.

I'm telling you the variations of fail for the QB in that game were never going to be about the QB. Which points back to well, who ? And don't tell me you didn't watch that game and not forget who the QB was, because it was meaningless, and you were thinking for the love of heaven, why are they not quadruple teaming that guy who keeps messing everything up, everyone else is just standing around watching.

[Buckets]

EJ Manuel sucks and should never play another game in Bills uniform. Fact.

I agree totally, but if he had played all 16 maybe we wouldn't be having this idiotic discussion. We would know what the rest of the country knows, EJ just doesn't have it!!

[TacklingDummy]

EJ or Bust

[better days]

You can absolutely win 10 games with a weak QB, considering the defensive and skill position talent we have. Both Rex Ryan and Chip Kelly have won 10+ with Mark Sanchez under center, the Vikings won 10 games with Christian Ponder, etc.

It doesn't mean we'll even make the playoffs or get anywhere if we do, but 10 wins is very much in play.

I agree. I think 10 wins is a possibility no matter who wins the QB job.

People say the Bills don't have a quarterback.

Well, that could be said about most teams in the NFL.

But the Bills do have a great defense coached by maybe the best Defensive Coach in the NFL.

And Roman will employ a real NFL offense this year.

[sudzy]

EJ or Bust

EJ=Bust

[better days]

EJ=Bust

I hope to see EJ prove you wrong.

[trapezeus]

EJ or Bust
Says the guy who saw Matt Barkley as the answer for the bills and he still hasn't played a meaningful snap

[Mace]

EJ=Bust

I get that he wasn't instant success, and can't argue he won't bust, but don't really understand why people are so sure besides being used to it. He's 6-8 as a starter, 16 tds to 12 ints, 58.6% comp in 14 games. That's not the land of awesome, but it's not the land of terrible either.

Derek Carr was 3-13, 21/12, 58.1% in 16 games and Oakland didn't give up on him yet. Smallball QB's Alex Smith, Cassel, even Eli Manning are within minimal percentage points for completion rate, took Eli 5 seasons (71 startes) to get past Manuel's completion percentage for all Manuel is supposed to be inaccurate, took Alex Smith (40 starts) 4 seasons and he's not now considered inaccurate.

Nothing stupendous is going to happen on the QB front anymore this offseason, and they want a smallball guy to handoff a lot, this is not a gunslinger offense. If Manuel is terrible, it will be conclusive soon, if he's not, another year to see what they have.

[Buckets]

I get that he wasn't instant success, and can't argue he won't bust, but don't really understand why people are so sure besides being used to it. He's 6-8 as a starter, 16 tds to 12 ints, 58.6% comp in 14 games. That's not the land of awesome, but it's not the land of terrible either.

But that is the point, he will never be our franchise QB!

[swiper]

But that is the point, he will never be our franchise QB!

But when he goes 15 of 25 with a TD and 2 INTs in preseason, there are people here who are going to tell you he's coming around.

[jills]

Ha, you mean the same guy that was directly responsible for losing to the Texans? The defense played well enough to win that game, how come we lost?

I'm not saying Orton is great or even good, but you can't just blindly say that EJ would've performed as well as him.

manuel's homers have a pretty simple logic:

If the team wins thanks to the defense and special teams = it was manuel who won the game.

If Orton makes enough plays to win = it was the defense and special teams who won the game.

[TacklingDummy]

I hope to see EJ prove you wrong.

EJ playing like an NFL QB is the only chance the Bills have at the Playoffs.

[TacklingDummy]

EJ=Bust

I called him a bust the minute I heard the Bills were interested in him.
When Lecter was happy with the pick, I knew EJ would be a bust.
With that being said, he's still the only chance the Bills have. That doesn't mean I think he's good, it means the other 2 choices are even worse.

[TacklingDummy]

But that is the point, he will never be our franchise QB!

Neither will Cassel or that other scrub.
It's pick your poison.

[TacklingDummy]

Says the guy who saw Matt Barkley as the answer for the bills and he still hasn't played a meaningful snap

Link?

[Ginger Vitis]

Says the guy who saw Matt Barkley as the answer for the bills and he still hasn't played a meaningful snap

And Tackling Dummy was also begging for the Bills to draft Johnny Manziel

[swiper]

And Tackling Dummy was also begging for the Bills to draft Johnny Manziel


He must have felt like he wanted anybody but Manuel. That is certainly understandable.

[swiper]

And Tackling Dummy was also begging for the Bills to draft Johnny Manziel

Not to mention you're a hypocrite. You say Manuel hasn't played enough to pass judgement, then criticize someone else for wanting Manziel who has played much less? LMFAO.

[Ginger Vitis]

Not to mention you're a hypocrite. You say Manuel hasn't played enough to pass judgement, then criticize someone else for wanting Manziel who has played much less? LMFAO.

I havent made any comment on Manuel in this thread...

[Ginger Vitis]

He must have felt like he wanted anybody but Manuel. That is certainly understandable.

Yeah great strategy EJ Manuel sucks so lets just like every QB on the face of the planet lol

[Mace]

manuel's homers have a pretty simple logic:

If the team wins thanks to the defense and special teams = it was manuel who won the game.

If Orton makes enough plays to win = it was the defense and special teams who won the game.

It's anyones simple logic with the team they are heading into the season with. It's not a passing team.

If anyone succeeds, it will be because of defense and special teams, and...the running game, not on a golden arm we don't have.

[Fixxxer]

I don't know, from the game I remember, it was that we lost to the Houston JJ Watt'ses.

If I was going to take a wild guess, I'd say it was because we ridiculously forgot they had a JJ Watts, took no measures to account for him, and tried to pretend he wasn't even there once he started predictably running wild.

If you watched that game, it was insane, they kept running generic offense, like maybe Watts' would disappear and they didn't need to worry about him because if they passed, maybe Jackson would pick him up and a couple times he even did.

Besides that though, it was like no one even had a clue they had a JJ Watts, and Peyton Manning in his prime would barely have managed his last "Omaha" with that game plan before wearing Watts yet again like a cheap suit in the rain.

That game was ridiculous.

I'm telling you the variations of fail for the QB in that game were never going to be about the QB. Which points back to well, who ? And don't tell me you didn't watch that game and not forget who the QB was, because it was meaningless, and you were thinking for the love of heaven, why are they not quadruple teaming that guy who keeps messing everything up, everyone else is just standing around watching.

I re-watched the game yesterday and on the play of the interception, an intended quick pass play to Fred on a flare pass, we didn't even try to put a shoulder on him.
Manuel should have ate it up and take the eventual sack but to design such a play without trying to secure a passing lane is insane, moreso against, you know, that fellow JJ Watt, that everyone is talking about.

[better days]

I re-watched the game yesterday and on the play of the interception, an intended quick pass play to Fred on a flare pass, we didn't even try to put a shoulder on him.
Manuel should have ate it up and take the eventual sack but to design such a play without trying to secure a passing lane is insane, moreso against, you know, that fellow JJ Watt, that everyone is talking about.

Watt made a GREAT play.

That is the reason he is talked about.

He makes great plays all the time.

[trapezeus]

manuel's homers have a pretty simple logic:

If the team wins thanks to the defense and special teams = it was manuel who won the game.

If Orton makes enough plays to win = it was the defense and special teams who won the game.

literally no one says that. literally. not a single person.

if EJ can progress, the bills have a better chance to actually sustain being a good team. if cassell wins the gig, the team is going to waste this defense. i don't think cassell can win you a superbowl at his ceiling at this point in his career. and he's got 2 years tops.

So if EJ is a bust, this team is going to age out and go no where because of it. if tyrod can't step in, the same thing.

the defense is the cornerstone of this team and no one denies it. to be a team that actually has aspirations higher of just making the playoffs, they'll need EJ to mature into the player the team wanted him to be.

There are no other options than the 3 we have. and while tyrod is intriguing, good drafting teams like the ravens don't let the people they love walk. so i don't think tyrod is going to magically be the guy who is wart free.

[Yasgur's Farm]

literally no one says that. literally. not a single person.

if EJ can progress, the bills have a better chance to actually sustain being a good team. if cassell wins the gig, the team is going to waste this defense. i don't think cassell can win you a superbowl at his ceiling at this point in his career. and he's got 2 years tops.

So if EJ is a bust, this team is going to age out and go no where because of it. if tyrod can't step in, the same thing.

the defense is the cornerstone of this team and no one denies it. to be a team that actually has aspirations higher of just making the playoffs, they'll need EJ to mature into the player the team wanted him to be.

There are no other options than the 3 we have. and while tyrod is intriguing, good drafting teams like the ravens don't let the people they love walk. so i don't think tyrod is going to magically be the guy who is wart free.WOW!! Way too much logic here... Nice job!

[swiper]

I havent made any comment on Manuel in this thread...

You have in plenty of other threads.

[SpikedLemonade]

literally no one says that. literally. not a single person.

if EJ can progress, the bills have a better chance to actually sustain being a good team. if cassell wins the gig, the team is going to waste this defense. i don't think cassell can win you a superbowl at his ceiling at this point in his career. and he's got 2 years tops.

So if EJ is a bust, this team is going to age out and go no where because of it. if tyrod can't step in, the same thing.

the defense is the cornerstone of this team and no one denies it. to be a team that actually has aspirations higher of just making the playoffs, they'll need EJ to mature into the player the team wanted him to be.

There are no other options than the 3 we have. and while tyrod is intriguing, good drafting teams like the ravens don't let the people they love walk. so i don't think tyrod is going to magically be the guy who is wart free.

That is exactly right.

EJ's immediate development to an average NFL QB is required for us to really become a contender this year, next year and the year after.

Obtaining a franchise QB quickly is virtually impossible in today's NFL.

[better days]

That is exactly right.

EJ's immediate development to an average NFL QB is required for us to really become a contender this year, next year and the year after.

Obtaining a franchise QB quickly is virtually impossible in today's NFL.

Well, this is year three for EJ.

I think this is the year & time frame that EJ was expected to develop into at least an average QB.

If EJ plays like an average QB, the playoffs are a lock.

If not, time to draft one or two QB's next year.

[trapezeus]

That is exactly right.

EJ's immediate development to an average NFL QB is required for us to really become a contender this year, next year and the year after.

Obtaining a franchise QB quickly is virtually impossible in today's NFL.

I presume this is a snide comment by yourself.

but given the bills actual 2-3year history, they weren't in a position to get a franchise QB quickly. Those guys are picked in the top 5 or in a deep class. Last year didn't have either. And the bills traded the 1st round pick. They also let orton start to avoid giving a high round pick to cleveland. Even if we started EJ and he played poorly to be a 4-12 team (which i still don't think our defense would have let happen), we aren't in on the top 2 qbs.

No one is trading us a franchise QB, so all we have for some long term stability is to hope EJ can get it.

For all the people who think he's a dumpster fire, the stats don't point that out. and for a guy with 15 starts, he's played well at times. we've given losman who never had that level of performance. we gave edwards that support after his cardinals game knockout. So why is EJ getting such little consideration. Could it be because we are simply tired of watching this scenario keep playing out?

Maybe, but until the bills pull a sabres and are horrible at a time of the deepest QB class, the situation we are in will always be the situation.

So given the fact we have what we have, our only solution is to hope EJ can be a care taker and mature throughout the season.

The bills have gotten a lot of possession receivers at WR and TE. They tried to upgrade the run game. they've left the line a bit short in terms of additional depth, but i really believe that last year's line was more based on inept line coaching than terrible players. There were too many times guys stood up and just had no idea who to block. Wood doesn't go from a good center to just whiffing on guys in two years. So there is reason to think a guy who went 2-2 could do better given better protection and better playcalling.

no one expects him to be superman. but if you think this defense is going to be top 5 and you want the bills to be more than simply a playoff team, you have to be all in on hoping EJ gets it. That's not a guarantee, but if he turns out to be a dud, and tyrod is nothing special, this defense will age out before we can get a chance at that excellent QB.

[SpikedLemonade]

I presume this is a snide comment by yourself.

but given the bills actual 2-3year history, they weren't in a position to get a franchise QB quickly. Those guys are picked in the top 5 or in a deep class. Last year didn't have either. And the bills traded the 1st round pick. They also let orton start to avoid giving a high round pick to cleveland. Even if we started EJ and he played poorly to be a 4-12 team (which i still don't think our defense would have let happen), we aren't in on the top 2 qbs.

No one is trading us a franchise QB, so all we have for some long term stability is to hope EJ can get it.

For all the people who think he's a dumpster fire, the stats don't point that out. and for a guy with 15 starts, he's played well at times. we've given losman who never had that level of performance. we gave edwards that support after his cardinals game knockout. So why is EJ getting such little consideration. Could it be because we are simply tired of watching this scenario keep playing out?

Maybe, but until the bills pull a sabres and are horrible at a time of the deepest QB class, the situation we are in will always be the situation.

So given the fact we have what we have, our only solution is to hope EJ can be a care taker and mature throughout the season.

The bills have gotten a lot of possession receivers at WR and TE. They tried to upgrade the run game. they've left the line a bit short in terms of additional depth, but i really believe that last year's line was more based on inept line coaching than terrible players. There were too many times guys stood up and just had no idea who to block. Wood doesn't go from a good center to just whiffing on guys in two years. So there is reason to think a guy who went 2-2 could do better given better protection and better playcalling.

no one expects him to be superman. but if you think this defense is going to be top 5 and you want the bills to be more than simply a playoff team, you have to be all in on hoping EJ gets it. That's not a guarantee, but if he turns out to be a dud, and tyrod is nothing special, this defense will age out before we can get a chance at that excellent QB.

No it wasn't. I agree that EJ is our only hope for a possible franchise QB in the foreseeable future. I am rooting for him.

[notacon]

There is zero evidence that the number of wins last year would have been different with Orton or Manuel as QB.

[Joe Fo Sho]

There is zero evidence that the number of wins last year would have been different with Orton or Manuel as QB.

Or if I was our QB.

[Topas]

literally no one says that. literally. not a single person.

if EJ can progress, the bills have a better chance to actually sustain being a good team. if cassell wins the gig, the team is going to waste this defense. i don't think cassell can win you a superbowl at his ceiling at this point in his career. and he's got 2 years tops.

So if EJ is a bust, this team is going to age out and go no where because of it. if tyrod can't step in, the same thing.

the defense is the cornerstone of this team and no one denies it. to be a team that actually has aspirations higher of just making the playoffs, they'll need EJ to mature into the player the team wanted him to be.

There are no other options than the 3 we have. and while tyrod is intriguing, good drafting teams like the ravens don't let the people they love walk. so i don't think tyrod is going to magically be the guy who is wart free.

Well, I hope you are wrong here. In general, I agree with your statement. But I think it that instance there is a good chance that you are wrong. Tyrod was a FA and he could choose where he wanted to play. It could be that the Ravens loved him and wanted to sign him for three times the money that the Bills paid, but he decided to go to the place with the highest chance of starting.

Obviously the three times statement is hyperbole. But this is just to show that in that instance it might be different. It would make no sense for the Ravens to franchise him as a backup QB, so they had no chance of retaining him as long as he wanted to leave. Look I am not saying that the Ravens love him. My argument is, that only be him leaving is no evidence of the Ravens not loving him.

ok, that probably could be worded more easy :D

[IlluminatusUIUC]

There are no other options than the 3 we have. and while tyrod is intriguing, good drafting teams like the ravens don't let the people they love walk. so i don't think tyrod is going to magically be the guy who is wart free.

I've heard this logic used to slam Taylor before and it doesn't make any sense. The Ravens have already heavily invested in their franchise QB, who is only 30 years old and has never missed a game in his career. And he's about to go into the very expensive years of his deal. For them to throw down millions to lock up a backup QB doesn't make financial sense, so they keep churning through backups on rookie capped deals to save money. New England and Indianapolis did that for years behind Brady and Manning. The teams who go out and spend on older backups are teams whose QBs have injury histories like Pitt with Roethlisberger and Green Bay with Rodgers.

Also, why assume the Ravens "let" Taylor leave? They are certainly not going to franchise him and he's never going to unseat Flacco, so it's entirely possible he chose to strike out in hopes of finding a starting job. He's 25 years old and the Bills have maybe the most wide-open QB competition in the league. For him, this could be his biggest chance ever. If he stayed in Baltimore, he'd likely make it to his next free agnecy at 27 years old without any significant playing time. His career could effectively be over.

Not that this means Taylor will be good, just that him leaving the Ravens doesn't prove he is bad.

EDIT: I leave the post open for a while and come back, and Topas has made all my points. lol

[Mr. Pink]

That is exactly right.

EJ's immediate development to an average NFL QB is required for us to really become a contender this year, next year and the year after.

Obtaining a franchise QB quickly is virtually impossible in today's NFL.

The teams that do it, become good...the teams that don't remain mired in suck.

QBs either have it or they don't from pretty much the moment they see the field for real work.

Who was the last QB who sucked as a rookie but then suddenly became lights out a few years down the line?

Guys like Jamarcus Russell stay J-Marc. Guys like Akili Smith stay Akili Smith. Guys like Andrew Luck stay Andrew Luck. Guys like Tom Brady stay Tom Brady.

[Bill Cody]

The teams that do it, become good...the teams that don't remain mired in suck.

QBs either have it or they don't from pretty much the moment they see the field for real work.

Who was the last QB who sucked as a rookie but then suddenly became lights out a few years down the line?

Guys like Jamarcus Russell stay J-Marc. Guys like Akili Smith stay Akili Smith. Guys like Andrew Luck stay Andrew Luck. Guys like Tom Brady stay Tom Brady.

EJ wasn't Akili Smith or D Russell bad, not even close. Most QB's have a progression.

[better days]

EJ wasn't Akili Smith or D Russell bad, not even close. Most QB's have a progression.

Arron Rodgers hardly saw the field until year 4.

[gr8slayer]

Of course he should have, why invest a first rounder in the guy if you aren't going to give him a fair shake? That's one good way keep the ever revolving door at QB going in Buffalo.

[Mr. Pink]

Arron Rodgers hardly saw the field until year 4.

But once he did, he showed he belonged.

That is exactly my point.

Who was the last QB to be terrible as a rookie turn into something good a few years down the line?

[better days]

But once he did, he showed he belonged.

That is exactly my point.

Who was the last QB to be terrible as a rookie turn into something good a few years down the line?

Well, my point is that EJ is just entering year 3 after two years of CRAP Coaching in a CRAP offense.

He has played less than a full season of games & deserves the same amount of time to show what he has that Rodgers had.

IMO, EJ deserves this year to show his stuff unless he is MUCH worse than Cassel and/or Taylor in Camp.

[swiper]

Arron Rodgers hardly saw the field until year 4.

That was only because the Packers already HAD a great QB.

[swiper]

Earlier in the week, newly acquired Jets receiver Brandon Marshall was asked who the best quarterback he’s played with in his career. Now before the answer makes your stomach turn, here are a few quarterbacks that have thrown the ball to Marshall: Jake Plummer, Jay Cutler (twice), Chad Henne, Chad Pennington and Matt Moore. Here’s a hint, it isn’t any of these guys.

Answer: Kyle Orton

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/18/brandon-marshalls-best-quarterback-isnt-who-youd-think-it-would-be/

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

The teams that do it, become good...the teams that don't remain mired in suck.

QBs either have it or they don't from pretty much the moment they see the field for real work.

Who was the last QB who sucked as a rookie but then suddenly became lights out a few years down the line?

Guys like Jamarcus Russell stay J-Marc. Guys like Akili Smith stay Akili Smith. Guys like Andrew Luck stay Andrew Luck. Guys like Tom Brady stay Tom Brady.

Drew Brees was pretty bad. Bad enough that the Chargers essentially gave up on him and drafted Philip Rivers. When Rivers held out, Brees started lighting it up and never looked back.

[JoeMama]

Drew Brees was pretty bad. Bad enough that the Chargers essentially gave up on him and drafted Philip Rivers. When Rivers held out, Brees started lighting it up and never looked back.

Drew Brees was decent his second season (first year as a starter) but his only truly bad season this during his third year. He really regressed. Similar to EJ Manuel.

But you're right, he balled out from that point on.

If the football gods are good, they'll magically grant EJ the power of accuracy on his deep ball. And I will sacrifice beanie babies of Matt Cassel and Tyrod Taylor to my altar of the football gods if that happens.

[better days]

That was only because the Packers already HAD a great QB.

Agreed, Rodgers had Favre in front of him.

But Rodgers needed that time to develop.

He was lucky to be drafted by the Packers & not a QB needy team like the Bills or the Jags.

If Rodgers were drafted by a team that started him in year one, he may have been a bust instead of the future HOF QB he became because he had time to develop.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

But once he did, he showed he belonged.

That is exactly my point.

Who was the last QB to be terrible as a rookie turn into something good a few years down the line?

Eli Manning and Matthew Stafford come to mind.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Agreed, Rodgers had Favre in front of him.

But Rodgers needed that time to develop.

He was lucky to be drafted by the Packers & not a QB needy team like the Bills or the Jags.

If Rodgers were drafted by a team that started him in year one, he may have been a bust instead of the future HOF QB he became because he had time to develop.
See JP Losman, David Carr, Blaine Gabbert...

[swiper]

Agreed, Rodgers had Favre in front of him.

But Rodgers needed that time to develop.

He was lucky to be drafted by the Packers & not a QB needy team like the Bills or the Jags.

If Rodgers were drafted by a team that started him in year one, he may have been a bust instead of the future HOF QB he became because he had time to develop.

Manuel cannot hold a candle to Rodgers, so the comparison is a bad one.

[Bill Cody]

But once he did, he showed he belonged.

That is exactly my point.

Who was the last QB to be terrible as a rookie turn into something good a few years down the line?

Well we don't know how guys like Rodgers or Romo or Kaepernick would have fared as rookies because they didn't play. There is a benefit of spending time in the league for a QB even if he's not playing. Running the scout team, learning what it takes to prepare, learning an offense, getting physically stronger, it all helps. The NFL game is super fast for a QB. The more preparation a QB has to the league the faster he can play. It's significant. EJ had just 2 years in college as a starter. The plan was to sit him year one. IMO that would have helped him.

[Mr. Pink]

Well we don't know how guys like Rodgers or Romo or Kaepernick would have fared as rookies because they didn't play. There is a benefit of spending time in the league for a QB even if he's not playing. Running the scout team, learning what it takes to prepare, learning an offense, getting physically stronger, it all helps. The NFL game is super fast for a QB. The more preparation a QB has to the league the faster he can play. It's significant. EJ had just 2 years in college as a starter. The plan was to sit him year one. IMO that would have helped him.

His problems are on the field, accuracy/foot work/decision making. How does sitting fix any of those problems? Those are the same problems he had at FSU as well.

Learning the playbook, getting stronger, doesn't help you throw a football more accurately.

[Mr. Pink]

Eli Manning and Matthew Stafford come to mind.

Eli is still an overrated turnover machine, he's lead the NFL in INTs three times. His rookie season wasn't any different than what he turned into.

Stafford has had one really good year and a bunch of meh. Stafford was on a terrible team and had a meh season which is pretty much what he turned into.

The last QB I can think of who looked like hot garbage as a rookie but turned into something was Troy Aikman. But that's 25 years ago. Not that Aikman ever put up big numbers but again it was 25 years ago.

Since then we've seen the likes of the Couch's, McNown's, Russells, Carrs, Losmans, Bollers, Quinns, Weedens, Gabberts, Ponders, Tebows etc etc etc...All guys who showed from the jump they weren't good enough and it never changed.

Even if you want to say Eli is now great or Stafford is great, you have two exceptions to the rule.

[gr8slayer]

His problems are on the field, accuracy/foot work/decision making. How does sitting fix any of those problems? Those are the same problems he had at FSU as well.

Learning the playbook, getting stronger, doesn't help you throw a football more accurately.

How can you unequivocally say any of this with such a small sample size? I have no reason to believe that he'll offer anything more than we've seen from him to this point, but it's impossible to say one way or another without seeing more of him. We're not talking about a guy that you take a shot on in the 3rd round, this is a guy who was drafted in a premium position, because the Bills thought that he had the look of a franchise QB. How the hell do you expect the guy to be a franchise QB or a bust until we've had a larger sample size? This, this is why teams like the Bills will NEVER go anywhere. You've got a team that knows nothing but losing, yet has this ridiculous desire for instant gratification.

[sudzy]

That was only because the Packers already HAD a great QB.

But, we conveniently leave that part out.

[Mace]

Eli is still an overrated turnover machine, he's lead the NFL in INTs three times. His rookie season wasn't any different than what he turned into.

Stafford has had one really good year and a bunch of meh. Stafford was on a terrible team and had a meh season which is pretty much what he turned into.

The last QB I can think of who looked like hot garbage as a rookie but turned into something was Troy Aikman. But that's 25 years ago. Not that Aikman ever put up big numbers but again it was 25 years ago.

Since then we've seen the likes of the Couch's, McNown's, Russells, Carrs, Losmans, Bollers, Quinns, Weedens, Gabberts, Ponders, Tebows etc etc etc...All guys who showed from the jump they weren't good enough and it never changed.

Even if you want to say Eli is now great or Stafford is great, you have two exceptions to the rule.

Well to be fair though Pink, "great" is an awful narrow channel. Andrew Luck has not been "great", though good and very good sometimes and you'd want him behind center. He was 23 td/18 int as a rookie with 54.1% completion percentage. Peyton Manning for most of his career was "great" and has less rings than his bro Eli who might be considered "good sometimes/very good others/not so good often".

Alex Smith looked like hot garbage as a rookie, is a pretty good NFL QB at his game these days, I'd take him under center.

I don't know I consider Aikman a great QB, though he has his propers, I consider Marino a great QB who has a lot of propers that don't mean anything because he seldom got his team anywhere.

Dilfer and Brad Johnson certainly were not great and have more rings than Marino or Kelly who I feel was great because of his whole body of work as a QB in his day who has less career TD's than Vinny Testaverde who was not great.

Manuel has 14 career starts, Gabbert has 27, Locker 23, Weeden 21, Ponder 36, Tebow even had 16 and was one of the most terrible passers in memory.

You sort of need to give someone a chance to fail before deciding they did, even if they do, but would you seriously gripe if Manuel was not great and merely "good" at this point ? "Good enough" is only a marginal step after if you have no prayer of getting "great" which I dunno, about 5 teams do imho (Brady, Peyton, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers), "great" meaning they can (or might) win you games reliably on their arm and skill alone. I don't even include Rivers, Eli or Luck because you don't so much fear them on that last drive when you are rooting against them as get startled if they get hot.

Manuel didn't even really suck. Is Flacco the QB of your dreams (14 td/12 int rookie, 60% completion), Andy Dalton, has playoff issues, he's 61.6%, 99 td's/66 int's, 40-23-1 Qb record, was 23/13 in 16 gamesfor 58.1% his first season, which gave him more starts that Manuel has in his career.

Let it play out, Manuel is either going to be good, ok, bad, or neither, but great, no one is great that fast in the modern game, possible exception Wilson, who I'm still not so sure about after that ridiculous pass last Super Bowl whether or not anyone told him to.

[better days]

Manuel cannot hold a candle to Rodgers, so the comparison is a bad one.

You are comparing EJ to the QB Rodgers became because he was drafted by the Packers & had time to develop behind Favre.

Rodgers gives Favre a lot of credit for his development as an NFL QB.

Who knows what kind of QB Rodgers would have become if he were thrown to the wolves his Rookie year with inept Coaching at that.

[better days]

But, we conveniently leave that part out.

The point is the time Rodgers had to develop as a QB.

I think a number of QB's could have had a better career if they had time to develop behind a HOF QB.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I think all 3 QBs will get an equal shot.

Who ever looks the best will be the starter.

This is the way it should be.

I am hoping EJ really shows something and wins the job.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Eli is still an overrated turnover machine, he's lead the NFL in INTs three times. His rookie season wasn't any different than what he turned into.

His rookie season he had 48% completions and a negative TD:INT ratio. He raised the former by over 11 points for most of his career and now has a positive ratio.


Stafford has had one really good year and a bunch of meh. Stafford was on a terrible team and had a meh season which is pretty much what he turned into.

The last QB I can think of who looked like hot garbage as a rookie but turned into something was Troy Aikman. But that's 25 years ago. Not that Aikman ever put up big numbers but again it was 25 years ago.

Since then we've seen the likes of the Couch's, McNown's, Russells, Carrs, Losmans, Bollers, Quinns, Weedens, Gabberts, Ponders, Tebows etc etc etc...All guys who showed from the jump they weren't good enough and it never changed.

Even if you want to say Eli is now great or Stafford is great, you have two exceptions to the rule.

I never said Eli or Stafford was "great" but they are both franchise QBs that you can win a Super Bowl with. If you are sitting around thinking we need QB play on the level of hall of fame guys like Peyton, Brees, or Rodgers to win, you'll be waiting a long time.

[Mr. Pink]

How can you unequivocally say any of this with such a small sample size? I have no reason to believe that he'll offer anything more than we've seen from him to this point, but it's impossible to say one way or another without seeing more of him. We're not talking about a guy that you take a shot on in the 3rd round, this is a guy who was drafted in a premium position, because the Bills thought that he had the look of a franchise QB. How the hell do you expect the guy to be a franchise QB or a bust until we've had a larger sample size? This, this is why teams like the Bills will NEVER go anywhere. You've got a team that knows nothing but losing, yet has this ridiculous desire for instant gratification.

Small sample size?

He showed the same problems he's shown here all 4 years that he was at FSU.

[better days]

Small sample size?

He showed the same problems he's shown here all 4 years that he was at FSU.

As if you watched EJ at Fl State to know what you are talking about.

You are just regurgitating the opinion of someone that is not a fan of EJ.

The fact is EJ WON every Bowl game he was in at Fl State.

I would love to see EJ get the Bills to the playoffs & win every playoff game as a Bill.

[WagonCircler]

Drew Brees was pretty bad. Bad enough that the Chargers essentially gave up on him and drafted Philip Rivers. When Rivers held out, Brees started lighting it up and never looked back.

EJ Manuel is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Drew Brees. Bree is the most accurate passer in the NFL. EJ Manuel is the least accurate passer in the NFL. Neither of those facts are going to change.

[better days]

EJ Manuel is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Drew Brees. Bree is the most accurate passer in the NFL. EJ Manuel is the least accurate passer in the NFL. Neither of those facts are going to change.

I would submit that Geno Smith is the least accurate passer in the NFL from the games I have watched him play.

And Geno has a 57.5 CMP% compared to EJ's 58.6 CMP%.

[Mr. Pink]

As if you watched EJ at Fl State to know what you are talking about.

You are just regurgitating the opinion of someone that is not a fan of EJ.

The fact is EJ WON every Bowl game he was in at Fl State.

I would love to see EJ get the Bills to the playoffs & win every playoff game as a Bill.

And then they won a National Championship when he left.

Wouldn't that be nice to win the title when he leaves here too? ;)

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

EJ Manuel is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Drew Brees. Bree is the most accurate passer in the NFL. EJ Manuel is the least accurate passer in the NFL. Neither of those facts are going to change.


I'm not saying he is Drew Brees. I was merely using him to make a point that a qb CAN (not will but can) improve from where they started is all I'm saying.

[Mr. Pink]

Well to be fair though Pink, "great" is an awful narrow channel. Andrew Luck has not been "great", though good and very good sometimes and you'd want him behind center. He was 23 td/18 int as a rookie with 54.1% completion percentage. Peyton Manning for most of his career was "great" and has less rings than his bro Eli who might be considered "good sometimes/very good others/not so good often".

Alex Smith looked like hot garbage as a rookie, is a pretty good NFL QB at his game these days, I'd take him under center.

I don't know I consider Aikman a great QB, though he has his propers, I consider Marino a great QB who has a lot of propers that don't mean anything because he seldom got his team anywhere.

Dilfer and Brad Johnson certainly were not great and have more rings than Marino or Kelly who I feel was great because of his whole body of work as a QB in his day who has less career TD's than Vinny Testaverde who was not great.

Manuel has 14 career starts, Gabbert has 27, Locker 23, Weeden 21, Ponder 36, Tebow even had 16 and was one of the most terrible passers in memory.

You sort of need to give someone a chance to fail before deciding they did, even if they do, but would you seriously gripe if Manuel was not great and merely "good" at this point ? "Good enough" is only a marginal step after if you have no prayer of getting "great" which I dunno, about 5 teams do imho (Brady, Peyton, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers), "great" meaning they can (or might) win you games reliably on their arm and skill alone. I don't even include Rivers, Eli or Luck because you don't so much fear them on that last drive when you are rooting against them as get startled if they get hot.

Manuel didn't even really suck. Is Flacco the QB of your dreams (14 td/12 int rookie, 60% completion), Andy Dalton, has playoff issues, he's 61.6%, 99 td's/66 int's, 40-23-1 Qb record, was 23/13 in 16 gamesfor 58.1% his first season, which gave him more starts that Manuel has in his career.

Let it play out, Manuel is either going to be good, ok, bad, or neither, but great, no one is great that fast in the modern game, possible exception Wilson, who I'm still not so sure about after that ridiculous pass last Super Bowl whether or not anyone told him to.

Hey, meh is better than what we got going on.

I'd take Stafford here, but he's not really that great. I would pass on Eli because he, JP and Kyle Boller are the same player. Erratic, scatterbrained, turnover machines. Kyle had success in Baltimore, Eli had success in NY and JP was just garbage. Differences were the Giants had the most talent around their QB, Ravens had talent and the Bills well they had no talent. Put Eli here and he would have been out of the league too...sad part is JP might have won a Superbowl in NY.

I don't think EJ has shown anything to prove he can be simply "good enough." Is it his fault that he was overdrafted? Absolutely not. Nix shoehorned the organization into "I must take a QB before I leave" and picked the wrong year to do it. We all laugh at how abysmal Geno Smith looks but the fact of the matter is EJ isn't any better nor is he any worse but when you're comparing cow dung to horse manure it's still crap.

A leopard doesn't change its spots. We can all sit here and hope that magically EJ is the 1 out of 100 who can become anything at this level but the problem is you're doing that and wasting everything else you have him around him. The team around him is more than "good enough" at this point. But frankly, he holds it all back. You can't expect to win with a QB who can't accurately throw swing passes let alone stretch the field to keep a defense honest.

That's why I said in another thread the only real hope for this season is somehow Tyrod Taylor is a diamond in the rough. It's possible that is case, because Tyrod really has no sample size. We start EJ, we start Cassel maybe we get to 8-8 and 8-8 ain't good enough. Woohoo, 18th overall pick here we come!

[Bill Cody]

. I would pass on Eli because he, JP and Kyle Boller are the same player. Erratic, scatterbrained, turnover machines.

There is one difference and I would submit it's a very significant one, Eli has 2 rings. And say what you want he earned them. Overall I would say Eli is about 25% the QB his brother is particularly regular season but Eli is a clutch player and Peyton is not. Whatever ability Eli has he's going to give it to you when the lights are the brightest, he does not play scared. That's a nice quality to have in a QB. JP was an arrogant ***** that had no leadership qualities. Kyle Boller was a bum. No way they are all three the same player.

[Bill Cody]

His problems are on the field, accuracy/foot work/decision making. How does sitting fix any of those problems? Those are the same problems he had at FSU as well.

Learning the playbook, getting stronger, doesn't help you throw a football more accurately.

He's been working in the offseason on his footwork. I for one am anxious to see if he's improved. We need him to be better. It's pretty dumb to think players at every position can't make huge jumps in performance after they enter the league. It happens every year on every team. Will it happen with EJ? I don't know. But guess what? You don't know either.

[swiper]

I would submit that Geno Smith is the least accurate passer in the NFL from the games I have watched him play.

And Geno has a 57.5 CMP% compared to EJ's 58.6 CMP%.

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-analysis-all-22/2014/6/19/5824590/ej-manuel-geno-smith-mike-glennon-comparison-analysis

http://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/assets/4640897/Along_the_Sideline.JPG

[better days]

And then they won a National Championship when he left.

Wouldn't that be nice to win the title when he leaves here too? ;)

On the field, Winston is the best college QB since Luck.

It is his off the field issues that are questionable, yet the Bucs still drafted him #1.

Of course EJ will not compare well to him on the field.

But I would rather the Bills win the Championship WITH EJ than after he leaves.

EJ is the kind of guy you want to root for. Winston not so much.

[better days]

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-analysis-all-22/2014/6/19/5824590/ej-manuel-geno-smith-mike-glennon-comparison-analysis

http://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/assets/4640897/Along_the_Sideline.JPG

I don't know who made that chart up for rumblings, but it was probably someone that failed math in H.S.

And while we are comparing numbers, Mark Sanchez had a 53.8 CMP% his Rookie year & a 54.8 CMP% his 2nd year.

Both well below the numbers EJ has put up his first two years, yet Rex Coached the Jets to the AFC Championship game both of those years.

I expect Rex to have the Bills in the playoffs this year.

[sudzy]

But Rodgers needed that time to develop.




How do you know that? Nobody knows how Rodgers would have played, if the Pack needed him to start year one, because it didn't happen. Just another idea in your head your trying to pass off as fact.

[better days]

How do you know that? Nobody knows how Rodgers would have played, if the Pack needed him to start year one, because it didn't happen. Just another idea in your head your trying to pass off as fact.

Well, Rodgers played a little more than one year for the Calafornia Golden Bears before being drafted #24 by the Packers.

You are the one trying to pass off as fact that Rodgers did not need time to develop.

It was the consensus at the time he was drafted that Rodgers was RAW & needed time to develop.

And as I said before, Rodgers himself said that sitting behind Favre & learning from him had a great deal to do with his development as an NFL QB.

And if you pay attention, you will no doubt hear Rodgers reiterate that just before the Packers induct Favre into the Packers HOF this season.

[better days]

And in the past, Favre said he was not a Coach & was not there to Coach Rodgers up.

But Rodgers said he watched Favre every day, how Favre handled himself in the huddle on the field, how he led the team, how he acted in the locker room as well as on the field & how Favre prepared to play on Sundays.

Rodgers said that watching Favre day in day out helped in his development.

[Mace]

Hey, meh is better than what we got going on.

I'd take Stafford here, but he's not really that great. I would pass on Eli because he, JP and Kyle Boller are the same player. Erratic, scatterbrained, turnover machines. Kyle had success in Baltimore, Eli had success in NY and JP was just garbage. Differences were the Giants had the most talent around their QB, Ravens had talent and the Bills well they had no talent. Put Eli here and he would have been out of the league too...sad part is JP might have won a Superbowl in NY.

I don't think EJ has shown anything to prove he can be simply "good enough." Is it his fault that he was overdrafted? Absolutely not. Nix shoehorned the organization into "I must take a QB before I leave" and picked the wrong year to do it. We all laugh at how abysmal Geno Smith looks but the fact of the matter is EJ isn't any better nor is he any worse but when you're comparing cow dung to horse manure it's still crap.

A leopard doesn't change its spots. We can all sit here and hope that magically EJ is the 1 out of 100 who can become anything at this level but the problem is you're doing that and wasting everything else you have him around him. The team around him is more than "good enough" at this point. But frankly, he holds it all back. You can't expect to win with a QB who can't accurately throw swing passes let alone stretch the field to keep a defense honest.

That's why I said in another thread the only real hope for this season is somehow Tyrod Taylor is a diamond in the rough. It's possible that is case, because Tyrod really has no sample size. We start EJ, we start Cassel maybe we get to 8-8 and 8-8 ain't good enough. Woohoo, 18th overall pick here we come!

Well, I saw the same receiver killing misfires everyone else saw but I get stuck on him being a project QB who wasn't developed. I'm just not convinced he is that bad, just underdeloped and confused.

Interesting thing : http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/ManuEJ00/splits//

If you scroll down to his "down and yards to go" stats, 1st & 10, 1st and >10, 2nd and 7-9+, 2nd & 10+, and 3rd & 4-6 are all decent to good. The rest are not so good. That's some short ball, some longer ball and some middling ball.

My point is, there's not any consistent inaccuracy that you'd expect from terrible. It just looks confused to me. Like I'd expect from a misdeveloped project QB, whether or not he amounts to anything.

[swiper]

I don't know who made that chart up for rumblings, but it was probably someone that failed math in H.S.



ROFL @ you again. This is why people give you zero credibility. You don't like the facts, so you pan the facts. FACE the facts. EJ Manual average completion is for only 6.4 yards. Fact. He sucks at throwing towards the sidelines. He sucks at throwing long. What's left? Not much. Grocery store baggers gain one.

[WagonCircler]

I would submit that Geno Smith is the least accurate passer in the NFL from the games I have watched him play.

And Geno has a 57.5 CMP% compared to EJ's 58.6 CMP%.

The percentage of EJs passes that went for 10 yards or less is higher than for those thrown by Geno. They both suck balls.

[JoeMama]

Hear my plea, oh mighty football gods, for I beseech you to bless our inept QB's with the talent they need to take us to the next level!

Amen.

Your loyal subject,

Joey Mama

[better days]

ROFL @ you again. This is why people give you zero credibility. You don't like the facts, so you pan the facts. FACE the facts. EJ Manual average completion is for only 6.4 yards. Fact. He sucks at throwing towards the sidelines. He sucks at throwing long. What's left? Not much. Grocery store baggers gain one.

The fact is Geno has a LOWER CMP% than EJ. So any graph that rates him higher is BOGUS.

[swiper]

The fact is Geno has a LOWER CMP% than EJ. So any graph that rates him higher is BOGUS.


Again - you're clueless.

EJ Manuel DROPPED from 58.8% to 58.0% completion percentage from 2013 to 2014. Considering the little number of passes he threw (c/w Smith) it's easy to see he's terrible and regressed.

Geno Simth INCREASED his completion percentage (from 55.8 to 59.7%) over the same span - throwing TWICE AS MANY PASSES. You would have bet he'd be the one to have a higher INCOMPLETE % (but he didn't).

Simply put - Smith has gotten better while Manuel regressed.

See for yourself.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/15864/geno-smith

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/15803/ej-manuel

[BillsImpossible]

Again - you're clueless.

EJ Manuel DROPPED from 58.8% to 58.0% completion percentage from 2013 to 2014. Considering the little number of passes he threw (c/w Smith) it's easy to see he's terrible and regressed.

Geno Simth INCREASED his completion percentage (from 55.8 to 59.7%) over the same span - throwing TWICE AS MANY PASSES. You would have bet he'd be the one to have a higher INCOMPLETE % (but he didn't).

Simply put - Smith has gotten better while Manuel regressed.

See for yourself.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/15864/geno-smith

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/15803/ej-manuel

Yeh, Geno Smith actually played 14 games last year.

I wonder what EJ's numbers would have looked like if he played 14 games instead of 4.

EJ's benching could have been a blessing in disguise. If he did play in 14 games last year under Marrone, his confidence would be totally shot.

We're about to find out what happens with the quarterbacks very soon.

Fasten your seat belts!

[swiper]

He got benched because he sucked you homer.

[BillsImpossible]

He got benched because he sucked you homer.

Most young quarterbacks suck.

It takes 2-3 years to develop an NFL quarterback.

There are a few exceptions to the rule, but not many.

How does a young quarterback learn if they're not allowed to make mistakes, and suck?

[swiper]

Most young quarterbacks suck.

It takes 2-3 years to develop an NFL quarterback.

There are a few exceptions to the rule, but not many.

How does a young quarterback learn if they're not allowed to make mistakes, and suck?

He regressed in his suckitude. Most young QBs never make it. He's falling into that category.

[BillsImpossible]

He regressed in his suckitude. Most young QBs never make it. He's falling into that category.

Sure looks that way, but we are only about 2-3 weeks away from finding out.

I'm pulling for the kid, I want EJ Manuel to succeed and be a winning franchise QB for the Bills.

He crapped his diaper like most young QB's often do, now it's time to see if he's ready to make one giant leap forward.

We're less than 30 days away from finding out if EJ Manuel has what it takes.

[swiper]

He crapped his diaper




http://www.mnn.com/sites/default/files/ToiletPaperTube.jpg

[better days]

He got benched because he sucked you homer.

EJ got benched by an IDIOT that refused to play Urbik at Guard until week 9 despite the terrible play of those theat Marrone started over him.

And the same IDIOT that benched Mike Williams & got rid of him even though he played well when he was given the chance.

Thank God Marrone is gone, now if we could just get rid of the TROLLS on this board.

[Mr. Pink]

Most young quarterbacks suck.

It takes 2-3 years to develop an NFL quarterback.

There are a few exceptions to the rule, but not many.

How does a young quarterback learn if they're not allowed to make mistakes, and suck?

Young QBs do not develop anymore.

They step in and look like they belong or they suck and end up replaced.

Just look at the Bills and their last few great hopes...Collins replaced by a veterans, Losman replaced by Holcomb, Edwards replaced by Fitzpatrick, Manuel replaced by Orton. You can see these guys on the field and almost instantly know if they're gonna be any good, let alone good enough.

The only thing Manuel getting hurt against the Browns and then getting benched last year did was prolong the inevitable of realizing that he doesn't deserve to have any consideration to be on an NFL field.

[swiper]

EJ got benched by an IDIOT that refused to play Urbik at Guard until week 9 despite the terrible play of those theat Marrone started over him.

And the same IDIOT that benched Mike Williams & got rid of him even though he played well when he was given the chance.

Thank God Marrone is gone, now if we could just get rid of the TROLLS on this board.

YOU don't know what happened behind the scenes with either Williams or Urbik.

And you can't project those decisions on the Manuel one. Manuel clearly sucked. Clearly.

Now if we could only get rid of the homers.

[JoeMama]

Bottom line is, this is the lot of quarterbacks we're stuck with, for better or worse.

All we can do is applaud their minor successes and hope one of them builds a little confidence and grows into the role of starter.

I know the outlook is bleak, but a lad can dream.

EJ, please keep working on that accuracy, homeboy!

Cassel, please try to recapture that two time pro bowl magic.

Tyrod, use those wheels and work on your mechanics.

Stranger things have happened.

I'm just trying to keep it positive, baby!

[better days]

YOU don't know what happened behind the scenes with either Williams or Urbik.

And you can't project those decisions on the Manuel one. Manuel clearly sucked. Clearly.

Now if we could only get rid of the homers.

The entire purpose of this board is for Bills fans or homers as you call us to talk about their favorite team, The Buffalo Bills.

The TROLLS, we could do without.

[Mr. Pink]

YOU don't know what happened behind the scenes with either Williams or Urbik.

And you can't project those decisions on the Manuel one. Manuel clearly sucked. Clearly.

Now if we could only get rid of the homers.

Well we do know that Marrone and Williams had problems that stemmed back from Syracuse days, apparently that was never resolved and it showed as Williams never saw the field.

I don't put the blame on that one on Marrone. The blame there is squarely on Whaley for even acquiring the guy.

[better days]

Well we do know that Marrone and Williams had problems that stemmed back from Syracuse days, apparently that was never resolved and it showed as Williams never saw the field.

I don't put the blame on that one on Marrone. The blame there is squarely on Whaley for even acquiring the guy.

The mistake Whaley made was not acquiring Mike Williams, the mistake Whaley made was not stopping Russ Brandon from hiring Marrone.

[HHURRICANE]

The mistake Whaley made was not acquiring Mike Williams, the mistake Whaley made was not stopping Russ Brandon from hiring Marrone.

The mistake is Whaley acquiring players through trade, etc. that the coach won't play. Bryce Brown has shown flashes of looking amazing but if neither Marrone or Ryan has faith he can hold on to the ball than you brought in the wrong guy.

[better days]

The mistake is Whaley acquiring players through trade, etc. that the coach won't play. Bryce Brown has shown flashes of looking amazing but if neither Marrone or Ryan has faith he can hold on to the ball than you brought in the wrong guy.

I said before that the Brown trade is the worst trade Whaley has made.

You can't win them all.

But Whaley got Mike Williams & Matt Cassel for peanuts.

[better days]

Yeh, Geno Smith actually played 14 games last year.

I wonder what EJ's numbers would have looked like if he played 14 games instead of 4.

EJ's benching could have been a blessing in disguise. If he did play in 14 games last year under Marrone, his confidence would be totally shot.

We're about to find out what happens with the quarterbacks very soon.

Fasten your seat belts!

As I said before, IMO, the former HC of the Bills is an IDIOT.

Marrone sabotaged his own career walking away from the Bills.

The Buffalo News has an article about Sammy Watkins where Watkins says he has already learned more this off season than he did all last year from the Coaching staff.

I think the same is likely true for EJ, he got TERRIBLE Coaching & was in a TERRIBLE oversimplified system the last two years.

I can't wait to watch EJ play under a GOOD OC in a complex system.