Thread Lookback Game: Shady for Kiko - your long term view on trade

[trapezeus]

same at the Darby thread. we know very little at this point. Rate the trade based on how you think it will play out for buffalo.

The questions:

1. are you supportive of the trade?
2. is kiko going to blossom or was the injury too much to return to form?
3. Do you think Shady has too much mileage.

Answer:
1. at first i was shocked and didn't love it. but i think if you are going all in to try and make the playoffs hell or highwater, then you needed a RB better than CJ and an aging Fred.
2. part of the reason i came around is that perhaps the ACL is a bigger deal and having the depth at LB is worth sacrificing for a strong runner.
3. i think shady is going to have to want to persevere. i don't think the yards are going to be easy. i just hope he has the patience and isn't a bad apple. his inability to get over chip kelly has me a little worried that if he isn't off and running, he's really going to stew about it.

[Topas]

I think this is difficult. Because short term the view is a lot different than long-term.
Long-term outlook is bad. In 3-4 years probably Kiko is the better player. There is the risk that he is injury prone and never will be the better player but I think he will be better in three years because Shady is almost done by then.
But short-term it is good. I think he is out to prove his doubters wrong. And this year we got the better deal.
In the end I voted neutral for this deal.

However, in total I am not supportive of this trade, but for reasons not involving RBs or LBs.
First, we dont have a QB and our short-term outlook is bleak anyway.
Second, Shady seems to be an cry-baby idiot. That is not a problem as long as he does not get suspended and plays well, but I dont like it.

[Ginger Vitis]

Wasnt a fan of this trade.. I think Shady will be on t he downside of his career soon if he isnt already and I dont like the deal he got

[better days]

I voted #1 a no brainer trade.

Kiko had a great Rookie year, but the Bills got along fine without him last year.

I think McCoy still has a lot left in the tank & has a Chip (pun intended for the dense) on his shoulder.

[OpIv37]

I don't like losing a young promising player, but I can get over that because the D did fine when he was injured. I don't see him as being critical to the team's success like, say, Kyle Williams or Dareus or Watkins.

Spiller never lived up to the hype so I was ok with letting him go, especially since we got an RB in the trade so we didn't create a new hole.

The biggest problem I have is giving up resources for an RB when we don't have an OL that can block or a QB that can keep defenses honest. Opposing D's are going to stack the box and completely neutralizes Shady. The only way this trade makes sense is if our OL suddenly becomes a bunch of bulldozers. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see that happening.

I understand that there are limitations and no team can be great at every position, but I don't like the way Whaley is spending so much on RB and WR with no OL or QB. I'll even give him a pass on QB this year because there wasn't anyone available who would have been the answer. I just think we should have beefed up the OL first.

[Albany,n.y.]

I don't like losing a young promising player, but I can get over that because the D did fine when he was injured. I don't see him as being critical to the team's success like, say, Kyle Williams or Dareus or Watkins.

Spiller never lived up to the hype so I was ok with letting him go, especially since we got an RB in the trade so we didn't create a new hole.

The biggest problem I have is giving up resources for an RB when we don't have an OL that can block or a QB that can keep defenses honest. Opposing D's are going to stack the box and completely neutralizes Shady. The only way this trade makes sense is if our OL suddenly becomes a bunch of bulldozers. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see that happening.

I understand that there are limitations and no team can be great at every position, but I don't like the way Whaley is spending so much on RB and WR with no OL or QB. I'll even give him a pass on QB this year because there wasn't anyone available who would have been the answer. I just think we should have beefed up the OL first.

The OL will be much improved over last year. Miller (based on reports so far) & Incognito are big upgrades over last year and RT will either be manned by a much improved CK or SH with a year of experience.

[trapezeus]

i think that is the biggest risk and biggest unknown. how poorly was the line coached last year. it's hard to believe every lineman just sucked last year. people were rotated in and nothing changed. to me that says the coaching and scheme wasn't working.

i'm hoping a real OC with a real vision of what they want to do instead of being scared by everything, will result in more dominant offensive players.

but that is a lot of hope. i can't imagine the turnaround will make the line a top 5 unit.

[OpIv37]

The more I read about Marrone, the easier it is for me to believe that he was completely in over his head and just held on until he could cash out. There are only 32 NFL head coaching gigs in the world and its the pinnacle of his chosen profession. No one walks away from that voluntarily without a damn good reason, and long term it would have been worth much more than the $4 mil he scored.

Still, OL improvement depends on:
1. Better coaching
2. Miller being ready
3. Incognito refunding to his previous level and not suffering from all the time off
4. Our young guys benefitting from the extra year of experience.

None of those things are impossible, but none are guaranteed either. And let's not forget that we need a new OL coach since ours got incarcerated for beating up a kid.

[Buffalogic]

Good trade for us. Double ACL tear undersized LB for a top 5 back who is still 27. Only a homer or a pathological complainer would think this is a bad trade for the bills.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I was very much against this trade from the day it was announced. Paying big money to halfbacks is a fool's game, and paying big money to veteran halfbacks who are already boom or bust runners is worse. If we had used the money we spent on Shady on linemen and then plugged Jackson, Brown, Dixon, and Williams behind it I would feel a lot better about our offense.

[justasportsfan]

Shady upgrades the rb position.

Not sure if keeping Kiko does anything to upgrade the D since it got better without him last year.

[trapezeus]

kind of stunned by the responses. i thought by the relative silence that most people were ok with the trade. but maybe it's a lot of wait and see how it looks through the first few weeks.

but the people who've rated it poorly now, have earned their right to ***** about it later :)

[Mr. Pink]

Neutral.

Having Shady won't win this team anything more than without him. Having Kiko won't win this team anything more than without him.

RBs and LBs are interchangeable parts that don't matter in today's NFL.

[JoeMama]

Losing Kiko was a tough pill to swallow.

He's a guy who could have anchored our D for another 10 years and been a perennial pro bowler.

Look how good our D was last season. Now imagine how much better they'd be with Kiko prowling at LB. It's a frightening thought.

We basically traded him for an elite RB who has about a 3 year window to help us win games.

If we make a deep run or even -- if the football gods are good -- win a superbowl with McCoy, then yes, this was a fantastic deal.

But if we remain mired in mediocrity because we lack a top flight QB, it's not like we have enough time to draft a new QB and give him time to develop. By that time most of our key defenders will be on the downside of their career.

So basically we need to win now and win big or else this trade was a flop.

Fingers crossed our gamble pays off.

[gr8slayer]

Alonso was probably the more valuable player, but he wasn't a need due to great drafting at the same position over the past few years.

[sudzy]

It seems the Bills overvalue RBs. They have Henry, they draft McGahee. They have McGahee, they draft Lynch. They have Lynch, they draft Spiller. RB shave not been the problem over the last 15 years. Where has it gotten us? Nowhere. I'm neutral because they gave up a pretty good LB that has durability issues and the defense didn't seem to miss last year.

[Mace]

I went with 4, just short of a bust because Shady will be entertaining once in a while.

1. No. RB's are a dime a dozen and cheap, never generate playoff wins and Super Bowl titles (ala Chris Johnson, Adrian Peterson, Jones-Drew, etc etc). Way easier imho to find a cheap guy who can hit holes and make plays then find a playmaking, dynamic signal calling tougher than nails LB which you need in a Ryan type dynamic defense. I don't view the argument that the D did better without Alonso as valid, since it was a different D with a diff use of LB's. I saw Alonso/Brown as the next 8 years of exceptional linebackers, more so in a Ryan defense. I see McCoy as replaceable next draft or casual UDFA with decent scouting.

2. I think Alonso blossoms.

3. Yes, too much mileage, too much all about McCoy, too much a better bouncing Spiller, too much just an expensive running back. If you want a few years of rb, you get a relaible bruiser with speed, McCoy is a dancer with miles on those skinny, expensive legs that get nervous if contact might be coming faster than he can get past it, and if unsure, bounce to the sidelines to be safe because there's no grit in a pretty boy.

To my way of thinking, they are both a knee injury away from missing a season (again or not), and it's harder to replace a playmaking signal calling mlb who has been compared to Kuechly, than an rb when fresh ones light it up yearly.

[cookie G]

It seems the Bills overvalue RBs. They have Henry, they draft McGahee. They have McGahee, they draft Lynch. They have Lynch, they draft Spiller. RB shave not been the problem over the last 15 years. Where has it gotten us? Nowhere. I'm neutral because they gave up a pretty good LB that has durability issues and the defense didn't seem to miss last year.

definitely another recurring theme in this playoff drought, the search for the newer, supposedly better RB and continue to watch the offense suck

RB has rarely, if ever, been the problem.

Maybe they'll draft a terminator/cyborg RB in the future. They should probably do so before Arnold finally kicks off.

[gr8slayer]

definitely another recurring theme in this playoff drought, the search for the newer, supposedly better RB and continue to watch the offense suck

RB has rarely, if ever, been the problem.

Maybe they'll draft a terminator/cyborg RB in the future. They should probably do so before Arnold finally kicks off.

What's sad is that the Bills have done a great job at drafting good/great RB's over the past decade and change (Henry, McGahee, Lynch), they just don't become good/great until they get out of here. Letting Lynch go is another one of those genius Jason Peters type moves that will go down in Bills history as one of the biggest mistakes. I'm sure that they'll both thank the Bills in their HoF speeches.

[JoeMama]

Alonso was probably the more valuable player, but he wasn't a need due to great drafting at the same position over the past few years.

Well, the way Preston Brown played last year, my concerns about losing Kiko are a little easier to swallow.

Brown looks like a natural (and a vet) out there. Love his play so far.

[Mace]

I'm good with this Mama, but have to spread some rep around before passing out more because I keep trying to plus 1 Pink to make him green by '19, so I have to just thank you instead.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Alonso was probably the more valuable player, but he wasn't a need due to great drafting at the same position over the past few years.

Such as? The only "great" drafted linebackers you could say we had were Brown, Bradham, and Alonso himself. Bradham was very hit or miss before Schwartz took over last year and Brown was a rookie, with the same one great season that Alonso had.

What made Alonso expendable (supposedly) was the switch to Rex Ryan's 3-4, which pushed Hughes and Williams (neither drafted) out to OLB. If we were still in Schwartz' 4-3 then Kiko likely just moves outside and Brown takes Spikes' spot.

[better days]

Such as? The only "great" drafted linebackers you could say we had were Brown, Bradham, and Alonso himself. Bradham was very hit or miss before Schwartz took over last year and Brown was a rookie, with the same one great season that Alonso had.

What made Alonso expendable (supposedly) was the switch to Rex Ryan's 3-4, which pushed Hughes and Williams (neither drafted) out to OLB. If we were still in Schwartz' 4-3 then Kiko likely just moves outside and Brown takes Spikes' spot.

Alonso, Brown, Bradham, three very good picks at the LB spot by the Bills & not real high picks either.

I think Bradham is just starting to hit his stride & expect him to play well this year.

[colin]

Kiko is to us what Vilma as to the jets under rexy, except he also has two acl injuries and missed 50% of his NFL seasons. Bad fit good trade

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Alonso, Brown, Bradham, three very good picks at the LB spot by the Bills & not real high picks either.

I think Bradham is just starting to hit his stride & expect him to play well this year.

All three of them have one season of good play each. And if we had stayed in the 4-3, they would be our starting three linebackers. The switch to Ryan's means our starting 4 are Hughes, Brown, Bradham, Williams.

It was the scheme change that made Alonso supposedly expendable.

[Mr. Pink]

I'm good with this Mama, but have to spread some rep around before passing out more because I keep trying to plus 1 Pink to make him green by '19, so I have to just thank you instead.

I still don't know if me ever getting to the green is possible.

[Mike]

What I liked:
1) Bills are definitely trying to improve for a change
2) They traded away an injured player at a position of strength

What I disliked:
1) They Traded for Shady & gave him guaranteed $$$, instead they could have signed FA Murray for Same $$$ & kept Kiko

Conclusion:
Bills gave up way too much!

Murray & Alanso >>> Shady

[Mike]

Bill should have traded Alanso for a 1st rounder in 2016 & signed Murray.

[Mace]

I still don't know if me ever getting to the green is possible.

Well, we have 4 years yet unless I die first, in which case I am including in my will a substantial sum to compensate the Dude for his assistance in my purpose, monitored of course by my global legal team, Cartels, and V. Stiviano who would other wise camp on his roof and make a fuss, bringing scorn and derision.

I am seeing a distinct positive trend in my rep as I have gone from 10 to 11 in power since last year so it is reasonable to expect I may even get to 12 or 13 by 2018 which can only gain you progress exponentially because everyone but everyone loves me for my dazzling charm.

You will be green one day Pink. To the last I grapple with it, from hell's heart I will stab at it, for hate's sake I will spit my last breath at this issue, and that last breath will be a huge bribe if it comes to that.

Outside of 25 or 30 things, I have always finished what I started in life, besides cleaning my bathroom today, ok, 26 or 31 things, but they were outliers when compared to my vast body of achievement. I may have not finished cleaning my bathroom, but I put on 2 socks, briefs, t-shirt, pants, hat, fastened my belt, drank several cups of coffee, and obliterated the stench of failure through my undefeatable will to accomplish things.

"Forth, and fear no darkness..."

[Mr. Pink]

Well, we have 4 years yet unless I die first, in which case I am including in my will a substantial sum to compensate the Dude for his assistance in my purpose, monitored of course by my global legal team, Cartels, and V. Stiviano who would other wise camp on his roof and make a fuss, bringing scorn and derision.

I am seeing a distinct positive trend in my rep as I have gone from 10 to 11 in power since last year so it is reasonable to expect I may even get to 12 or 13 by 2018 which can only gain you progress exponentially because everyone but everyone loves me for my dazzling charm.

You will be green one day Pink. To the last I grapple with it, from hell's heart I will stab at it, for hate's sake I will spit my last breath at this issue, and that last breath will be a huge bribe if it comes to that.

Outside of 25 or 30 things, I have always finished what I started in life, besides cleaning my bathroom today, ok, 26 or 31 things, but they were outliers when compared to my vast body of achievement. I may have not finished cleaning my bathroom, but I put on 2 socks, briefs, t-shirt, pants, hat, fastened my belt, drank several cups of coffee, and obliterated the stench of failure through my undefeatable will to accomplish things.

"Forth, and fear no darkness..."

I'm telling you at the very best I'm at -45,000 rep. It may be a lost cause.

[POTLAND PSILBYLO]

My thoughts:

[Mace]

I'm telling you at the very best I'm at -45,000 rep. It may be a lost cause.

Confucious once said : “The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones.”

and : “Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.”

I don't know what the latter means Someone gave me a sword once and I can't dance, and nothing ever came of it. I might be startled if I was swordfighting someone and they broke into an aggressive rhumba or moonwalked though, I admit. Be that as it may, if it's a lost cause it we'll know by 2019.

[Mr. Pink]

Confucious once said : “The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones.”

and : “Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.”

I don't know what the latter means Someone gave me a sword once and I can't dance, and nothing ever came of it. I might be startled if I was swordfighting someone and they broke into an aggressive rhumba or moonwalked though, I admit. Be that as it may, if it's a lost cause it we'll know by 2019.

Yeah that 45k is just at best, at one time it was -75k LOL

Before the forums changed over to this, we used to be able to see what the exact rep number was.

And if I danced with a sword, I would end up cutting body parts off that I may need.

[Victor7]

Not a fan of the trade.

Alonzo was just getting his career started while Shady will most likely start to hit a wall soon.

Spending big $$ on running backs is not smart football. Its been proven they can be replaced and recycled without much issue. In fact we are the living proof of that drafting unnecessarily plenty of times. Think McGahee when we had Travis, Lynch when we had McGahee and Spiller when we had Lynch.

[ublinkwescore]

this is going to be a trade that benefits both teams no matter what. I have a feeling that with the system they run in philadelphia, they will still have a high powered offense so it really doesn't matter who they have on the roster. Kiko WILL make their defense better and he will contribute with some turnovers - he may have to knock some rust off, but he will start. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Kiko ends up bosworthing out of the league by the time his rookie contract is up.

[better days]

All three of them have one season of good play each. And if we had stayed in the 4-3, they would be our starting three linebackers. The switch to Ryan's means our starting 4 are Hughes, Brown, Bradham, Williams.

It was the scheme change that made Alonso supposedly expendable.

My point is the Bills have been drafting the LB position well.

Do you expect the play of any of those LB's to fall off from what it was?

I expect the play of Brown & Bradham to improve from last year myself.

[better days]

Bill should have traded Alanso for a 1st rounder in 2016 & signed Murray.

This is not Madden football.

What team would have traded a first rnd pick for a LB that suffered two torn ACL's & did not play a down the year before?

And even if the Bills offered Murray more money than the Eagles paid him does not mean he would have signed with Buffalo.