7/29: Marcia outraged: 'I did nothing wrong'

[Meathead]

In a post made to his verified Facebook page Wednesday morning, New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady says he is "very disappointed" that the NFL upheld his four-game suspension over the "Deflategate" scandal. "I did nothing wrong, and no one in the Patriots organization did either."

Commissioner Roger Goodell, in affirming the suspension he handed down in May, said new information about the destruction of Brady's cell phone showed the four-time Super Bowl champion "sought to hide evidence of his own participation in the underlying scheme to alter the footballs."

The NFL Players Association said it would file an appeal, presumably in federal court, on Brady's behalf.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/29/us/tom-brady-deflategate-suspension-upheld/

awesome

dig tommy, dig

i hope he does play in week two. the distraction will kill that team, all while hes killing his own reputation for all perpetuity

[Meathead]

actual photo of him assembling the tools for his defense

http://oi61.tinypic.com/e16dk2.jpg

[JoeMama]

I know what will cheer Tommy boy up!

A fun ride down a waterslide!

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/4-tom-brady-water-slide1.jpg

[trapezeus]

no one did anything wrong? then why are two guys fired by the team?

the patriots need to find their voice on this topic and spin the lie only one way so its more believable.

[Meathead]

Tom Brady caught on video wearing Imperial Grand Wizard robes, smoking methamphetamine, and beating the homeless for their spare change. "I did nothing wrong."

[CommissarSpartacus]

Tommy's right and you, Roger Goodell and all the fans of 31 other teams that hate him are wrong.

The fact that the NFL has tried to pull a fast one by trying to go to court immediately on releasing the decision on the appeal shows they have no confidence in their own case and are trying to bluster and intimidate their way to saving their own sorry behinds.

They have also defacto admitted that the Wells report was trash by putting the emphasis for the decision on the destruction of the cell phone, an irrelevant issue. In law slang they're called fishing expeditions.

To any disinterested observer, the NFL's case is trash and the suspension will be overturned. The science doesn't hold up, the league and certain owners behavior stinks of collusion and conspiracy.

Goodell now obviously considers himself the embodiment of the NFL, and his credibility is the league's credibility, and is willing to try to trash the league's most famous player to save that credibility.

How's this for a scenario?

Brady gets an injunction permitting him to play and starts the court proceedings.

Brady's suspension is overturned in court.

Brady plays every game and the Pats win the Superbowl.

Then he takes the trophy from Goodell, punches him in the mouth and announces his retirement with a big "**** you!" to his haters.

I could definitely see that happening...

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/07/28/deflate-gate-science-doesnt-add-up-but-neither-does-bradys-decision-to-destroy-cellphone

eflategate science doesn't add up but neither does Brady's decision to destroy cellphone 0

John Kryk
By John Kryk, Postmedia Network

First posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2015

SYRACUSE, N.Y. - If you actually read Ted Wells' report with an open, disinterested mind, you more likely than not concluded Tom Brady and the New England Patriots conspired to do nothing beyond smashing the living daylights out of the Indianapolis Colts on Jan. 18.

The more skeptical Deflate-gate disbelievers have charged that Wells led a prosecutorial investigation, whose asterisked findings were based on jerry-rigged science and disconcerting leaps to conclusion, so as to implicate the alleged football-deflating conspirators, led by Brady.

To me, the science is the most troubling element of the report.

Despite what commissioner Roger Goodell insisted in his 20-page appeal-denial Tuesday, the science in the Wells report really is thinner than a starved giraffe.

To believe it, even in its most indicting light, you have to believe the Patriots let out negligible amounts of air -- less than half a pound, in most cases -- from not all, but from just eight of the 11 footballs tested at halftime.

Specifically, Patriots balls on the most incriminating gauge measured 0.17, 0.22, 0.22, 0.37, 0.42, 0.47, 0.62 and 0.82 PSI short of the conditions-adjusted threshold of 11.32 to 11.52 PSI as determined by Wells' own engineering consultants.

Of the other three balls, two were within the acceptable range and one was above it. (On the other gauge, eight of the 11 Patriots balls were within or above the acceptable range).

...more...

[Meathead]

why again would the nfl railroad their own golden boy? i dont think ive ever seen that explained

[JoeMama]

why again would the nfl railroad their own golden boy? i dont think ive ever seen that explained

Yeah Tommy is their golden boy & their cash cow. Seems counter-intuitive to impose a 4 game suspension if in fact he did "nothing wrong" as he claims.

If there's one thing I know about the NFL, cash is king.

I mean, hell, the NFL has become almost unbearable to watch the way it's cracked down on what the secondary can and can't do to WR's and has become so biased toward the passing game (to appease the fans and generate more scoring) and the way it doles out TV deals to stations that cram in as many commercial breaks as possible.

There's no conspiracy here. It is what it is.

[Meathead]

i really dont understand why the nfl would do that to him if they didnt really believe he is guilty. i hope shiva clarifies that, or maybe someone else if its already been discussed

[JoeMama]

i really dont understand why the nfl would do that to him if they didnt really believe he is guilty. i hope shiva clarifies that, or maybe someone else if its already been discussed

Ditto.

And as an aside, I seriously wouldn't watch the NFL anymore if the Bills ever ceased to exist. Which they won't (thanks Terry Pegula!).

But the NFL brand is just so lousy and watered down.

/rant of a crotchety old man who misses hard nosed 80s and 90s style football.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Tommy's right and you, Roger Goodell and all the fans of 31 other teams that hate him are wrong.

The fact that the NFL has tried to pull a fast one by trying to go to court immediately on releasing the decision on the appeal shows they have no confidence in their own case and are trying to bluster and intimidate their way to saving their own sorry behinds.

They have also defacto admitted that the Wells report was trash by putting the emphasis for the decision on the destruction of the cell phone, an irrelevant issue. In law slang they're called fishing expeditions.

To any disinterested observer, the NFL's case is trash and the suspension will be overturned. The science doesn't hold up, the league and certain owners behavior stinks of collusion and conspiracy.

Goodell now obviously considers himself the embodiment of the NFL, and his credibility is the league's credibility, and is willing to try to trash the league's most famous player to save that credibility.

How's this for a scenario?

Brady gets an injunction permitting him to play and starts the court proceedings.

Brady's suspension is overturned in court.

Brady plays every game and the Pats win the Superbowl.

Then he takes the trophy from Goodell, punches him in the mouth and announces his retirement with a big "**** you!" to his haters.

I could definitely see that happening...

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/07/28/deflate-gate-science-doesnt-add-up-but-neither-does-bradys-decision-to-destroy-cellphone

eflategate science doesn't add up but neither does Brady's decision to destroy cellphone 0

John Kryk
By John Kryk, Postmedia Network

First posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2015

SYRACUSE, N.Y. - If you actually read Ted Wells' report with an open, disinterested mind, you more likely than not concluded Tom Brady and the New England Patriots conspired to do nothing beyond smashing the living daylights out of the Indianapolis Colts on Jan. 18.

The more skeptical Deflate-gate disbelievers have charged that Wells led a prosecutorial investigation, whose asterisked findings were based on jerry-rigged science and disconcerting leaps to conclusion, so as to implicate the alleged football-deflating conspirators, led by Brady.

To me, the science is the most troubling element of the report.

Despite what commissioner Roger Goodell insisted in his 20-page appeal-denial Tuesday, the science in the Wells report really is thinner than a starved giraffe.

To believe it, even in its most indicting light, you have to believe the Patriots let out negligible amounts of air -- less than half a pound, in most cases -- from not all, but from just eight of the 11 footballs tested at halftime.

Specifically, Patriots balls on the most incriminating gauge measured 0.17, 0.22, 0.22, 0.37, 0.42, 0.47, 0.62 and 0.82 PSI short of the conditions-adjusted threshold of 11.32 to 11.52 PSI as determined by Wells' own engineering consultants.

Of the other three balls, two were within the acceptable range and one was above it. (On the other gauge, eight of the 11 Patriots balls were within or above the acceptable range).

...more...

Science doesn't matter anymore. All that the courts are going to determine is whether or not the league has the right to punish Brady the way they did. No one cares anymore whether or not he did it, because it's so obvious that he did.

[CommissarSpartacus]

why again would the nfl railroad their own golden boy? i dont think ive ever seen that explained

Oh, please.

If that was the case, on the day after the Indy game, Goodell would have said it was the NFL's fault for having no or ineffective protocols for the balls and they would be changed so these suspicions, which had no chance of being verified, would never again be an issue.

Case closed.

But no, they made it a huge issue because Irsay and the Baltimore owner and Woody Johnson were pressing him, so now we have the SINGLE BIGGEST EMBARRASSMENT EVER for the NFL.

For what?

Do I need to remind you again who trounced Indy in the second half? Do I need to remind you who the Superbowl winner and MVP was?

This whole thing is COMPLETE HORSE**** and only floats on hatred. Just another example of self righteous Americans causing immense amounts of damage fighting for virtue.

[Joe Fo Sho]

But no, they made it a huge issue because Irsay and the Baltimore owner and Woody Johnson were pressing him, so now we have the SINGLE BIGGEST EMBARRASSMENT EVER for the Tom Brady.

There ya go.

[POTLAND PSILBYLO]

America!

[justasportsfan]

How's this for a scenario?

Brady gets an injunction permitting him to play and starts the court proceedings.

Brady's suspension is overturned in court.

Brady plays every game and the Pats win the Superbowl.

Then he takes the trophy from Goodell, punches him in the mouth and announces his retirement with a big "**** you!" to his haters.

I could definitely see that happening...

I do too. Question is, what kind of new way to cheat will he use to git er done?

[casdhf]

I think the coverup is what caused the problems. It always does.

[CommissarSpartacus]

I do too. Question is, what kind of new way to cheat will he use to git er done?

He'll use the same method he used in the second half of the Colts game and the Superbowl.

[Victor7]

Two guys on the team were suspended for their actions. Why did that happen if they did nothign wrong then Tommy ??

Dude is so dumb he can't even come up with good lies.

He said he had his phone destroyed because that's what he did with old phones. Say what ?? The Wells report indicates thats baloney because they had already obtained an older phone no longer in use by Brady ?? .... Like I said. He can't lie well.

I suppose its also an amazing coincidence of all sorts that he decided to change his phone right around the time it was asked by the NFL and the investigators.

Common Shivster. Not even you can buy this bull****.

[justasportsfan]

Common Shivster. Not even you can buy this bull****.

don't overestimate the shivster.

[JoeMama]

Two guys on the team were suspended for their actions. Why did that happen if they did nothign wrong then Tommy ??

Dude is so dumb he can't even come up with good lies.

He said he had his phone destroyed because that's what he did with old phones. Say what ?? The Wells report indicates thats baloney because they had already obtained an older phone no longer in use by Brady ?? .... Like I said. He can't lie well.

I suppose its also an amazing coincidence of all sorts that he decided to change his phone right around the time it was asked by the NFL and the investigators.

Common Shivster. Not even you can buy this bull****.

That's the same thing a buddy of mine said recently.

He's like, I don't even care that he's guilty as this point. I just hope he gets the hammer dropped on him for being such a ****ty liar!

[better days]

Tommy's right and you, Roger Goodell and all the fans of 31 other teams that hate him are wrong.

The fact that the NFL has tried to pull a fast one by trying to go to court immediately on releasing the decision on the appeal shows they have no confidence in their own case and are trying to bluster and intimidate their way to saving their own sorry behinds.

They have also defacto admitted that the Wells report was trash by putting the emphasis for the decision on the destruction of the cell phone, an irrelevant issue. In law slang they're called fishing expeditions.

To any disinterested observer, the NFL's case is trash and the suspension will be overturned. The science doesn't hold up, the league and certain owners behavior stinks of collusion and conspiracy.

Goodell now obviously considers himself the embodiment of the NFL, and his credibility is the league's credibility, and is willing to try to trash the league's most famous player to save that credibility.

How's this for a scenario?

Brady gets an injunction permitting him to play and starts the court proceedings.

Brady's suspension is overturned in court.

Brady plays every game and the Pats win the Superbowl.

Then he takes the trophy from Goodell, punches him in the mouth and announces his retirement with a big "**** you!" to his haters.

I could definitely see that happening...

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/07/28/deflate-gate-science-doesnt-add-up-but-neither-does-bradys-decision-to-destroy-cellphone

eflategate science doesn't add up but neither does Brady's decision to destroy cellphone 0

John Kryk
By John Kryk, Postmedia Network

First posted: Tuesday, July 28, 2015

SYRACUSE, N.Y. - If you actually read Ted Wells' report with an open, disinterested mind, you more likely than not concluded Tom Brady and the New England Patriots conspired to do nothing beyond smashing the living daylights out of the Indianapolis Colts on Jan. 18.

The more skeptical Deflate-gate disbelievers have charged that Wells led a prosecutorial investigation, whose asterisked findings were based on jerry-rigged science and disconcerting leaps to conclusion, so as to implicate the alleged football-deflating conspirators, led by Brady.

To me, the science is the most troubling element of the report.

Despite what commissioner Roger Goodell insisted in his 20-page appeal-denial Tuesday, the science in the Wells report really is thinner than a starved giraffe.

To believe it, even in its most indicting light, you have to believe the Patriots let out negligible amounts of air -- less than half a pound, in most cases -- from not all, but from just eight of the 11 footballs tested at halftime.

Specifically, Patriots balls on the most incriminating gauge measured 0.17, 0.22, 0.22, 0.37, 0.42, 0.47, 0.62 and 0.82 PSI short of the conditions-adjusted threshold of 11.32 to 11.52 PSI as determined by Wells' own engineering consultants.

Of the other three balls, two were within the acceptable range and one was above it. (On the other gauge, eight of the 11 Patriots balls were within or above the acceptable range).

...more...

Going to court only shows the NFL is SMART.

They want to get this matter resolved quickly & in a court of their choosing, not a court that will act favorably towards Brady.

[JoeMama]

Going to court only shows the NFL is SMART.

They want to get this matter resolved quickly & in a court of their choosing, not a court that will act favorably towards Brady.

Smart move by the NFL to act first so Brady's defense can't slap an injunction on the NFL's ruling -- which they'd be unlikely to accomplish anyway.

The legal aspects of this that I've read indicate Brady's chances of winning an injunction in federal court are poor at best, given the new CBA deal and the destruction of his cell phone aka evidence.

Brady's just gotta bite the bullet on this one.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Two guys on the team were suspended for their actions. Why did that happen if they did nothign wrong then Tommy ??


No one on the team was suspended. The two locker room have been told to take a seat by the organi2ation, NOT the NFL, until the issue is resolved. They are still being paid and no one has admitted any sort of guilt.

God, arguing this issue is pointless.

[Victor7]

No one on the team was suspended. The two locker room have been told to take a seat by the organi2ation, NOT the NFL, until the issue is resolved. They are still being paid and no one has admitted any sort of guilt.

God, arguing this issue is pointless.


I never said the league suspended them. I said they were suspended. I know the Pats did it. Call it what you want but they can't work. Don't care if their checks are still being mailed to them. The fact is they are separated (even of temporarily) from the team for a reason. If they were 100% innocent there no reason to do this. Keep working as if nothing happened. Which is exactly what the Pats claim.

[MikeInRoch]

God, arguing this issue is pointless.

And yet you continue to do it.

[jamze132]

I think the NFL has more evidence they haven't released yet and will do so in court if need be. They don't want to tarnish the legacy of Tom unless they HAVE to. They had to do something since the entire football community, to include fans, are up in arms with the Patriots cheating scandals throughout the years, hence the 4 game suspension.

[MikeInRoch]

At this point, it really is as simple as this: Both the Patriots and Brady himself did not cooperate with the league investigation. Period. The league is therefore punishing them.

[snow1989]

The fact that the NFL has tried to pull a fast one by trying to go to court immediately on releasing the decision on the appeal shows they have no confidence in their own case and are trying to bluster and intimidate their way to saving their own sorry behinds.


[/B]
...more...

The league didn't pull a "fast one" ....they filed a writ to have any future legal proceedings heard in the same juristriction. A maneuver used many times in court cases. This keeps the union from asking the proceedings from being heard in Minnesota where Judge Doty has shown he tends to favor the players union.

Also, who pays people to do nothing? 2 guys suspended with pay. The team suspended them not the league. Just doesn't hold water

[trapezeus]

NFL: we are thinking about your appeal.
Tom: i destroyed my phone when i realized you were asking for the details.
NFL: really, you destroyed the very phone that could have easily proved your innocence?...you know what, now that you can't prove you are innocent and we can prove you tampered with the footballs, let's go to court and see how a judge feels about some one destroying evidence in an ongoing investigation.

Let's make this about you spending money against us and see if its worth it to you.

Bottom line, he is guilty and his ego that we all knew was a huge issue for him is making this worse on a daily basis.

I hope OJ's ghost writer can change some of the langue to "if i did it" for Brady.

[MikeInRoch]

Which is worse behavior? The NFL trying to get future legal proceedings heard, I dunno, in the same jurisdiction as the NFL league offices? Or players deliberately taking their cases to a jurisdiction where the league doesn't have it's offices, the team isn't from, and no one involved lives? This is a move by the NFL to prevent the slime of the player.

[ICRockets]

Which is worse behavior? The NFL trying to get future legal proceedings heard, I dunno, in the same jurisdiction as the NFL league offices? Or players deliberately taking their cases to a jurisdiction where the league doesn't have it's offices, the team isn't from, and no one involved lives? This is a move by the NFL to prevent the slime of the player.

In fairness to the NFLPA, David Doty's jurisdiction in Minnesota is specifically laid out in the CBA as where all their appeals go. I don't disagree that it makes little sense as to WHY that is, but I don't think there's any slime inherent to the decision.

[MikeInRoch]

In that case, I stand corrected.

[Meathead]

they made it a huge issue because Irsay and the Baltimore owner and Woody Johnson were pressing him, so now we have the SINGLE BIGGEST EMBARRASSMENT EVER for the NFL.


did i read that right? youre saying goodell is railroading tommy bc some of the other owners want him to? if so that makes no sense whatsoever. what would he/the nfl get out of that? it would be a massively huge risk for what kind of reward? can you image what would happen to the nfl if that ever was exposed, which seems likely if its just a frame job

i must not be understanding you bc this is a horrible explanation. nobody in their right mind would ever ever try to do that as commissioner unless they were stark raving insane. so please, honestly, if i have missed the rationale please try to restate it for me

[Meathead]

and why do ppl keep bringing up the colts game? what difference does it make if they won by a thousand or lost by a thousand? does anyone actually believe they only would do it for that one game? does anyone actually believe its total coincidence that the cheaters fumble statistics plunged at exactly the same time as brady/manning convinced the league to let them break in and use AND CONTROL their own balls in the game when on offense?

i cant wait for the fumble stats to come rolling in this season when the nfl is controlling the balls and monitoring psi now. the cheaters stats are going to immediately (in one season) go back to being right in line with the rest of the league. thats going to be as much a smoking gun as you could have. that entire organization should be severely punished if/when that happens. they wont but we will all know what was going on, at least those of us that dont already know

[better days]

Even Tom Brady's teammate Devin McCourty refused to say Brady didn't cheat when pressed on that by the media.

All he would say is Tom is family & you stand by your family no matter what.

[CommissarSpartacus]

http://news.yahoo.com/brady-nfl-deflategate-suspension-unfair-denies-wrongdoing-121037003--nfl.html;_ylt=A0LEVio9FLlV7jkA79knnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--


Brady blasts NFL 'Deflategate' suspension, denies wrongdoing
Reuters By Steve Ginsburg
2 hours ago

(Reuters) - New England Patriots football star Tom Brady denied on Wednesday he had destroyed his cell phone to avoid giving it to NFL investigators, saying the flap was "manufactured" to distract from "zero evidence" against him in the "Deflategate" scandal.

Brady issued his statement a day after National Football League Commissioner Roger Goodell upheld a four-game suspension of the quarterback for his part in an alleged scheme to deflate footballs below league standards in the game that put the Patriots in the 2015 Super Bowl.

...and...

Patriots owner Robert Kraft threw his support behind his player, considered one of the NFL's all-time greats.

"I was wrong to put my faith in the league," Kraft said in blasting Goodell for upholding the suspension. "I continue to believe and unequivocally support Tom Brady."

...and...

Kraft said on Wednesday he regretted accepting the "harshest penalty in history of NFL" when he chose not to appeal a $1 million fine imposed on the team for its alleged role in the scandal. Goodell also ordered the club to surrender two draft choices, including the team's coveted No. 1 pick next year.

"I truly believe what I did in May, given the actual evidence of the situation and the league’s history on discipline matters, would make it much easier for the league to exonerate Tom Brady," Kraft said. "Unfortunately, I was wrong."

...more...

[better days]

NFL: we are thinking about your appeal.
Tom: i destroyed my phone when i realized you were asking for the details.
NFL: really, you destroyed the very phone that could have easily proved your innocence?...you know what, now that you can't prove you are innocent and we can prove you tampered with the footballs, let's go to court and see how a judge feels about some one destroying evidence in an ongoing investigation.

Let's make this about you spending money against us and see if its worth it to you.

Bottom line, he is guilty and his ego that we all knew was a huge issue for him is making this worse on a daily basis.

I hope OJ's ghost writer can change some of the langue to "if i did it" for Brady.

Brady covered that at the time of the Super Bowl.

He did not say "I am not a CHEATER."

He said "I don't believe I am a CHEATER."

[Joe Fo Sho]

"I truly believe what I did in May, given the actual evidence of the situation and the league’s history on discipline matters, would make it much easier for the league to exonerate Tom Brady," Kraft said. "Unfortunately, I was wrong."

So Kraft is basically saying that he thought he could pay off the NFL with $1 million to get Brady exonerated. What a class act.

Besides, it's tough for the NFL to exonerate someone when they're so obviously guilty.

[better days]

In fairness to the NFLPA, David Doty's jurisdiction in Minnesota is specifically laid out in the CBA as where all their appeals go. I don't disagree that it makes little sense as to WHY that is, but I don't think there's any slime inherent to the decision.

It is also laid out in the CBA that Goodell has the right to administer punishment & hear all appeals.

[SpikedLemonade]

I do have some sympathy for Brady not wanting to set a precedent by handing over his cell phone.

It is his phone and not his employers and that seems to be a huge invasion of privacy.

[JoeMama]

I do have some sympathy for Brady not wanting to set a precedent by handing over his cell phone.

It is his phone and not his employers and that seems to be a huge invasion of privacy.

True dat.

Maybe there were rockin' hot nude photos of Gisele on that thing.

In which case, the phone needs to be reconstructed and analyzed in my bedroom!

[SpikedLemonade]

True dat.

Maybe there were rockin' hot nude photos of Gisele on that thing.

In which case, the phone needs to be reconstructed and analyzed in my bedroom!

Your bathroom not good enough for jerking off anymore?

[JoeMama]

Your bathroom not good enough for jerking off anymore?

Uh no, that's strictly where I powder my nose, thank you very little.

[Meathead]

I do have some sympathy for Brady not wanting to set a precedent by handing over his cell phone.

It is his phone and not his employers and that seems to be a huge invasion of privacy.

the nfl told bradys lawyers they could go through and redact all personal items on the phone and only provide those relevant to the investigation. that of course would put the lawyers on the hook down the road if it went to court and it was discovered they had withheld items that were actually relevant

the point is, that would remove the objection of having personal information handed over bc that would not have happened. still refusing to comply with that reasonable request appears quite damning to claims of innocence

[sudzy]

"I did nothing wrong, and no one in the Patriots organization did either."


So two guys were fired because they did nothing wrong?

[Joe Fo Sho]

I do have some sympathy for Brady not wanting to set a precedent by handing over his cell phone.

It is his phone and not his employers and that seems to be a huge invasion of privacy.

I don't disagree, but there are other ways to go about that than to physically destroy your phone.

[sudzy]

I don't think this is about deflating balls anymore. This is about obstructing this investigation and he is undeniably guilty of that. He's been caught in a lie already. He claimed he didn't know 2 men that he texted quite a few times. Then he destroyed evidence (the phone) after he was aware that the investigators wanted to see it. Every things he's done looks like a man that's guilty. I'm sure even Shiva is not gullible enough to believe Brady is 100% innocent. He just can't pass up an opportunity to stir the pot.

[Discotrish]

What I heard on the teevee today is that whatever Brady said in his discussion with the NFL over this, made his case worse, not better.

That he did "nothing wrong" is a true statement insofar as he doesn't consider having an equipment guy deflate the balls to be wrong.

Patti

[CommissarSpartacus]

What I heard on the teevee today is that whatever Brady said in his discussion with the NFL over this, made his case worse, not better.

That he did "nothing wrong" is a true statement insofar as he doesn't consider having an equipment guy deflate the balls to be wrong.

Patti

WOW! You heard it on the TEE VEE? Well, that seals it!

[better days]

True dat.

Maybe there were rockin' hot nude photos of Gisele on that thing.

In which case, the phone needs to be reconstructed and analyzed in my bedroom!

More likely there were nude photos of guys on that phone than of Gisele.

[sudzy]

What does the NFL do when a player doesn't show up for a drug test? Or tampers with the sample or uses a masking agent? There is no physical evidence that player did any drugs. That player get penalized like he failed the drug test. This is the same thing. Brady tampered with evidence (phone) and lied.

[Victor7]

What does the NFL do when a player doesn't show up for a drug test? Or tampers with the sample or uses a masking agent? There is no physical evidence that player did any drugs. That player get penalized like he failed the drug test. This is the same thing. Brady tampered with evidence (phone) and lied.

This +10000

[DraftBoy]

the nfl told bradys lawyers they could go through and redact all personal items on the phone and only provide those relevant to the investigation. that of course would put the lawyers on the hook down the road if it went to court and it was discovered they had withheld items that were actually relevant

the point is, that would remove the objection of having personal information handed over bc that would not have happened. still refusing to comply with that reasonable request appears quite damning to claims of innocence

I don't think the NFL ever had any legal authority to force Brady to turn over his phone. I don't consider a business asking its employee to turn over a personal use phone to be a reasonable request.

[better days]

I don't think the NFL ever had any legal authority to force Brady to turn over his phone. I don't consider a business asking its employee to turn over a personal use phone to be a reasonable request.

Asking for EVIDENCE in an investigation is a reasonable request IMO.

And the NFL said they would be satisfied if Brady turned over the text messages in question, he was not asked to turn his entire phone over to the NFL.

[DraftBoy]

Asking for EVIDENCE in an investigation is a reasonable request IMO.

And the NFL said they would be satisfied if Brady turned over the text messages in question, he was not asked to turn his entire phone over to the NFL.

Disagree, and they don't have the legal authority to make that request either.

I think Brady completely screwed himself by not challenging the NFL on that in court. Now he'll likely be serving a punishment that he could of dealt with in a much better way.

[SpikedLemonade]

I don't think the NFL ever had any legal authority to force Brady to turn over his phone. I don't consider a business asking its employee to turn over a personal use phone to be a reasonable request.

I AGREE.

Geez, just typing like that makes me feel ******ED.

[better days]

Disagree, and they don't have the legal authority to make that request either.

I think Brady completely screwed himself by not challenging the NFL on that in court. Now he'll likely be serving a punishment that he could of dealt with in a much better way.

Not the first time you & I don't agree & I'm sure it won't be the last.

As I said before, if Brady had just admitted he wanted his footballs deflated, he most likely would have gotten off with a small fine.

[better days]

I AGREE.

Geez, just typing like that makes me feel ******ED.

Well, you finally feel the real you.

[sudzy]

I don't think the NFL ever had any legal authority to force Brady to turn over his phone. I don't consider a business asking its employee to turn over a personal use phone to be a reasonable request.

If they have reason to believe you have done something with you phone (like take photos of confidential info) and you refuse to let them see your phone, it could be grounds for dismissal. I've had to fabricate products for equipment which usually requires me to take pictures with my phone. Quite often I am required to let the customers view my phone before I leave. Never seemed unreasonable to me, but, I have nothing to hide.

[DraftBoy]

If they have reason to believe you have done something with you phone (like take photos of confidential info) and you refuse to let them see your phone, it could be grounds for dismissal. I've had to fabricate products for equipment which usually requires me to take pictures with my phone. Quite often I am required to let the customers view my phone before I leave. Never seemed unreasonable to me, but, I have nothing to hide.

Sure, but that's the use of personal property for business purposes. That's not what occurred here.

Also there isn't really any relevancy to comparing what you do to do what Brady does. And you're using a fallacy by citing the nothing to hide angle. Since when does having something to hide or not suddenly give anybody the right to see your personal property?

[better days]

Sure, but that's the use of personal property for business purposes. That's not what occurred here.

Also there isn't really any relevancy to comparing what you do to do what Brady does. And you're using a fallacy by citing the nothing to hide angle. Since when does having something to hide or not suddenly give anybody the right to see your personal property?

Again, the NFL did not ask for the entire phone, just the text's in question, EVIDENCE in an INVESTIGATION.

If I don't comply with what my bosses want in Fla, I can be FIRED, PERIOD.

[DraftBoy]

Again, the NFL did not ask for the entire phone, just the text's in question, EVIDENCE in an INVESTIGATION.

If I don't comply with what my bosses want in Fla, I can be FIRED, PERIOD.
Which I do not believe that had a legal right to. What happens to you in your situation is not comparable to Brady. Also that's a really ****ty situation to be in and I'm sorry if you have to deal with that.

[better days]

Which I do not believe that had a legal right to. What happens to you in your situation is not comparable to Brady. Also that's a really ****ty situation to be in and I'm sorry if you have to deal with that.

Fla is a "right to work" State.

It should be called a "right to fire" State.

An employer can fire ANYONE at ANYTIME for ANY reason they want. (Except age)

But it would have to be proved you were fired because of your age & not another reason.

But I digress, I still think the NFL has a legal right to ask for evidence in an investigation.

[DraftBoy]

Fla is a "right to work" State.

It should be called a "right to fire" State.

An employer can fire ANYONE at ANYTIME for ANY reason they want. (Except age)

But it would have to be proved you were fired because of your age & not another reason.

But I digress, I still think the NFL has a legal right to ask for evidence in an investigation.
I haven't seen anything or anybody that has determined the NFL has that kind of legal authority but I'm not a lawyer. Maybe one of the ones who post here will chime in.

[justasportsfan]

True dat.

Maybe there were rockin' hot nude photos of Gisele on that thing.


Gisele? More likely Woody and Welker.

[YardRat]

In fairness to the NFLPA, David Doty's jurisdiction in Minnesota is specifically laid out in the CBA as where all their appeals go. I don't disagree that it makes little sense as to WHY that is, but I don't think there's any slime inherent to the decision.

I'm not finding that in the CBA at all, could you point out where it is? Thanks in advance.

The only language I'm finding has nothing to do with discipline, and specifies the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, of which Minnesota is not included in it's territory.

[Meathead]

I don't think the NFL ever had any legal authority to force Brady to turn over his phone. I don't consider a business asking its employee to turn over a personal use phone to be a reasonable request.

if something expensive had gone missing and you were one of very few employees to have access to it and they asked you to provide your phone messages in order to clear you or face termination would you do it? what if they told you they are going to prosecute whomever they think did it so if you want you can go thru and only submit the ones you think are relevant? that way you would only get in trouble if you actually were involved and withheld the relevant information that was to be found out later when they took legal action

its not a perfect example but they gave him plenty of easy ways to help himself and he declined. this isnt a legal case, yet, so those standards dont apply to the activities performed so far. he had a moral and professional obligation, which of course he can refuse but then the nfl can consider that obstruction and make the reasonable decision that they did to suspend him over it. now it will become legal, if he proceeds with the case, and that information will likely become part of record

if he really didnt do anything why wouldnt he let his lawyers just go thru his stuff and give the nfl what it wanted? seems stupid not to comply there even if he is guilty, they would only find out if the nfl decided to pursue legal action, but that would be mostly on his lawyers reputations at that point, which is why they wont do it. seems like hes either guilty or getting horrendously bad legal advice. i think we know which one it is

keep digging tommy. make that hole bigger and bigger. i hope he plays in game 2, i want to see the self immolation happen right before our eyes

[CommissarSpartacus]

Let me repeat.

Demanding Tommy's cell phone is bugging his phone AFTER THE FACT.

Sorry, but NO ONE gets to say "We think you've done something wrong but can't prove it, so we want to look through your phone conversations and texts for proof. And if you don't turn them over, we'll take that as an admission of guilt."

For goodness sake, this is POLICE STATE crap...

"If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear."

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/f5/31/46/f53146bcc2d99dd0d6f7b626ed576cf3.jpg

[EricStratton]

WOW! You heard it on the TEE VEE? Well, that seals it!

And where is it that you get your information?

[DraftBoy]

if something expensive had gone missing and you were one of very few employees to have access to it and they asked you to provide your phone messages in order to clear you or face termination would you do it? what if they told you they are going to prosecute whomever they think did it so if you want you can go thru and only submit the ones you think are relevant? that way you would only get in trouble if you actually were involved and withheld the relevant information that was to be found out later when they took legal action

its not a perfect example but they gave him plenty of easy ways to help himself and he declined. this isnt a legal case, yet, so those standards dont apply to the activities performed so far. he had a moral and professional obligation, which of course he can refuse but then the nfl can consider that obstruction and make the reasonable decision that they did to suspend him over it. now it will become legal, if he proceeds with the case, and that information will likely become part of record

if he really didnt do anything why wouldnt he let his lawyers just go thru his stuff and give the nfl what it wanted? seems stupid not to comply there even if he is guilty, they would only find out if the nfl decided to pursue legal action, but that would be mostly on his lawyers reputations at that point, which is why they wont do it. seems like hes either guilty or getting horrendously bad legal advice. i think we know which one it is

keep digging tommy. make that hole bigger and bigger. i hope he plays in game 2, i want to see the self immolation happen right before our eyes

Something expensive did not go missing. When you have to invent a scenario to come up with why the request was legitimate that should tell you all that you need to know about the request.

[HHURRICANE]

He'll use the same method he used in the second half of the Colts game and the Superbowl.

If he's so awesome than why deflate the balls in the first place?

If I stand on the line when I serve a tennis ball it gives me an advantage. In most cases I wouldn't get called out for it. When I mark my ball to fix my divot I certainly can move the ball an inch closer to the hole. It gives me an advantage and most likely I won't get caught. It's still cheating.

As Jim Kelly said this guy is one of the greatest to play the game. He didn't need to do what he did....but he did. Nixon was going to win the election without Watergate. Does that mean what he did was meaningless?

That's your logic and that's why your wrong.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And where is it that you get your information?

WBUR Boston
WCVB Boston
www.digboston.com
www.bostonglobe.com
www.boston.com
www.bostonnewsgroup.com
www.bostonherald.com
www.facebook.com/tombrady

[HHURRICANE]

WBUR Boston
WCVB Boston
www.digboston.com
www.bostonglobe.com
www.boston.com
www.bostonnewsgroup.com
www.bostonherald.com
www.facebook.com/tombrady

There was a great article yesterday in the Boston Globe basically lambasting its own fan base and said its time to give up the ghost. Called Brady a cheater.

[Joe Fo Sho]

There was a great article yesterday in the Boston Globe basically lambasting its own fan base and said its time to give up the ghost. Called Brady a cheater.

I'd like to read that.

[HHURRICANE]

I'd like to read that.

Here it is:

Deal with it — Tom Brady and the Patriots are cheaters:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/07/28/shaughnessy/T32IKjU6IVYjEWml2YfrMI/story.html

[better days]

Let me repeat.

Demanding Tommy's cell phone is bugging his phone AFTER THE FACT.

Sorry, but NO ONE gets to say "We think you've done something wrong but can't prove it, so we want to look through your phone conversations and texts for proof. And if you don't turn them over, we'll take that as an admission of guilt."

For goodness sake, this is POLICE STATE crap...

"If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear."

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/f5/31/46/f53146bcc2d99dd0d6f7b626ed576cf3.jpg

Evidence is ALWAYS needed & asked for after the fact!

Before the fact, there was no need for evidence.

The NFL KNOWS Brady had texts about deflating footballs with the two equipment guys from their phones.

And the NFL does not want to see the slimy pictures of other guys Brady has on his phone or any other personal things, just the relevant text messages.

[trapezeus]

I don't think the NFL ever had any legal authority to force Brady to turn over his phone. I don't consider a business asking its employee to turn over a personal use phone to be a reasonable request.

in a world without contracts, you are right. but when you sign the contract to follow the rules, a grievance is issued, and investigation is underway to clear your name (if you are innocent) and put the matter to rest, it within their right to ask.

And you don't have to give it over.. you also don't have to destroy it.

if there was an investigation on me at work, and i was innocent, and they said, can you provide us the information which we think is the opposite side of these messages, i think i would comply. i wouldn't decide to take some random stand. i'm innocent and i got nothing to hide. so, here's my info.

[MikeInRoch]

Of *course* the NFL has the "legal right" to ask him what is on his phone. It's never illegal to ask someone to do something. What they don't have is the ability to inflict legal punishments if he doesn't.

[better days]

Of *course* the NFL has the "legal right" to ask him what is on his phone. It's never illegal to ask someone to do something. What they don't have is the ability to inflict legal punishments if he doesn't.

Well, we are not talking about a court of law here either (yet).

Brady broke the rules of the NFL, not any law on the books.

But Goodell & the NFL have the right to hold players responsible for their actions on the field & off if they want to remain employed by the NFL.

[CommissarSpartacus]

In just under two months, Brady and the Patriots are going to walk into the Ralph and kick the Bills' asses.

I don't want it to happen, I would rather beat the Patriots and Brady, but it ain't gonna happen.

Brady will get his injunction, he will play, the Pats will win and the courts will eventually overturn the suspension.

I can just hear the weeping and wailing and whining now.

It'll be epic.

[psubills62]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1163/tom-brady

A Minnesota judge has transferred the NFLPA's Tom Brady lawsuit back to New York.
The NFLPA filed the suit in Minnesota in an effort to get Judge David Doty, who has historically sided with the Player's Association. U.S. District Judge Richard Kyle saw through that, kicking the case back to Manhattan where the NFL preemptively filed. "The Court sees little reason for this action to have been commenced in Minnesota at all," Kyle wrote. "Brady plays for a team in Massachusetts; the Union is headquartered in Washington, D.C.; the NFL is headquartered in New York; the arbitration proceedings took place in New York; and the award was issued in New York." It's a win for the NFL as the real legal battle gets going.

[Joe Fo Sho]

In just under two months, Brady and the Patriots are going to walk into the Ralph and kick the Bills' asses.

I don't want it to happen, I would rather beat the Patriots and Brady, but it ain't gonna happen.

Brady will get his injunction, he will play, the Pats will win and the courts will eventually overturn the suspension.

I can just hear the weeping and wailing and whining now.

It'll be epic.

Worst Bills fan ever.

[Bill Cody]

This whole thing has hurt the league as well as the Patriots. And it was from the league's standpoint a completely self inflicted wound, just one more example of Roger Goodell's utter incompetence. The whole thing went from a small thing, possible fine to the biggest sports story in years AFTER the league fed Chris Mortensen the false report that 11 of 12 NE footballs were 2 lbs underinflated. That leak is why this is still a hot topic and I really don't know why the league did that. If they had said nothing or even said the balls averaged less than half a pound under would it have been on the national news? No chance. Going forward I would rate the odds of an injunction at about 60/40 for, if so we'll be seeing Brady week 2. And if Brady gets the injunction the case itself will probably not get decided until the season is over. Just my take.

[BuffaloRedleg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoYa7Mx5EbE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoYa7Mx5EbE)

[Meathead]

Something expensive did not go missing. When you have to invent a scenario to come up with why the request was legitimate that should tell you all that you need to know about the request.

well i figured you would say something like this

no offense but this is why i dont talk about things with you. i suppose this makes sense to you, but it is just nonsense to me. its a simple comparison, a scenario as you put it, to be used for comparative purposes. scenarios get invented all the time to compare things like this, to provide a similar example on a more personal level. but you turned it into something else that i dont even know what you are talking about

so its just a waste of time to try to have an exchange about it. i wanted to try again just to see if we had made any progress on an ability to communicate over the past ten years, but the answer is again no

[feldspar]

Worst Bills fan ever.

He's actually a Browns fan, or used to be.

Fact.

Ask him.

[better days]

Worst Bills fan ever.

What makes you think Spartacus is a Bills fan?

There are a number of TROLLS on this board that are not Bills fans.

[swiper]

What makes you think Spartacus is a Bills fan?

There are a number of TROLLS on this board that are not Bills fans.

Said the blind homer. What there are is intelligent people that you can't keep up with here. The only one that trolls is you.

[better days]

Said the blind homer. What there are is intelligent people that you can't keep up with here. The only one that trolls is you.

Which am I you IDIOT, a HOMER or a TROLL?

Unlike you, some of the Trolls on this board are intelligent.

[Joe Fo Sho]

He's actually a Browns fan, or used to be.

Fact.

Ask him.

Makes sense. I haven't seen him talk about anything on this forum other than Tom Brady, how terrible America is, and politics.

[swiper]

Which am I you IDIOT, a HOMER or a TROLL?

Unlike you, some of the Trolls on this board are intelligent.

You wouldn't know intelligence if it punched you in the face.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Shiva/Spartacus is just trolling everyone it's pretty transparent.

So far he has compared this to the war in Iraq and the Spanish Inquisition. He has claimed that the NFL used to embody what was great about America, but now it's all ruined. He has used 9/11 in his comparisons as well.

If you guys can't tell you are being baited and trolled hard I don't know what to tell you.

Obvious troll is obvious.

[DraftBoy]

in a world without contracts, you are right. but when you sign the contract to follow the rules, a grievance is issued, and investigation is underway to clear your name (if you are innocent) and put the matter to rest, it within their right to ask.

And you don't have to give it over.. you also don't have to destroy it.

if there was an investigation on me at work, and i was innocent, and they said, can you provide us the information which we think is the opposite side of these messages, i think i would comply. i wouldn't decide to take some random stand. i'm innocent and i got nothing to hide. so, here's my info.

It's certainly within their right to ask, but that's not the question. The question is do they have the legal authority to do so?

My question isn't about Brady's guilt or innocence, because frankly I don't care. The nothing to hide argument is a fallacy.

- - - Updated - - -


Of *course* the NFL has the "legal right" to ask him what is on his phone. It's never illegal to ask someone to do something. What they don't have is the ability to inflict legal punishments if he doesn't.

Fair point.

[DraftBoy]

well i figured you would say something like this

no offense but this is why i dont talk about things with you. i suppose this makes sense to you, but it is just nonsense to me. its a simple comparison, a scenario as you put it, to be used for comparative purposes. scenarios get invented all the time to compare things like this, to provide a similar example on a more personal level. but you turned it into something else that i dont even know what you are talking about

so its just a waste of time to try to have an exchange about it. i wanted to try again just to see if we had made any progress on an ability to communicate over the past ten years, but the answer is again no

Uh-huh...do you think anybody puts anye stock into what you think of communication ability given your history on Bills board in the past?

[justasportsfan]

Marsha will serve his suspension after the bills sweep them and knock them out of the playoffs right after the 11 week of regular season

[trapezeus]

it's not a fallacy, draftboy. we are supposed to believe that tom brady is a legal scholar and didn't want to create a precendent. That's the obvious truth to an average person? Someone has accused him of somethingn against the rules and he's not only refused, but destroyed the phone. that's the act of a sane person? Ok. Maybe for something more significant that would be true, but for a deflated ball, he went that far? the obvious truth is that he's done a lot more and the phone would point that out.

this whole story is a result of tom brady's ego. if he could have accepted that he did what he did prior to the investigation, its a smack on the hand. it's a fine, it gets chalked up by most people as something everyone does, but he got caught. like the stickum on jerry rice's gloves. It happened, but it's not a big deal. His image maintained, story goes away. The offseason becomes stories like rex and the bills, chip kelly gutting his team, winston trying to stay on the straight and narrow, and the old, "hey the patriots won the superbowl, season is starting soon" articles. it's entirely forgotten and those of us who bring it up are in the fringe and ridiculous.

but he wanted to viewed as a choir boy despite the fact he is anything but. He left his baby mamma during her pregnancy. He whine anytime things don't go his way in games. He complains to the refs without any issues and then gets the calls he wants. but his ego demands that this fake facade where he is awww shucks and super great. he tries to portray that to be true in his interviews. n

But instead of doing the easy thing, there are a few million dollars in investigation money and then more money on an appeal, and a legal battle, guess what. His image is worse than it ever has been. all the other BS that was swept under the rug is starting to surface. and worse yet, the spygate stuff is starting to come back into focus. it's not conspiracy/angry opposing fans clamouring about it. it's national publications that are essentially astericking their past performance. every article notes spygate. people are looking at the stats and saying, "these are outrageous performance numbers of a bad coach in a previous life and QB who couldn't start on his college team."

They still have a chance to escape this with minimal damage. but this goes to court and more details are required, we might find out that deflation was the worst of their issues. and you'll have crushed the team and the fan base simply to try and pretend you aren't a jerk.

[better days]

Said the blind homer. What there are is intelligent people that you can't keep up with here. The only one that trolls is you.

Typical, two of the biggest TROLLS on the board thank this post by the 3rd biggest TROLL on the board.

LMAO at ALL of you IDIOT TROLLS.

[better days]

You wouldn't know intelligence if it punched you in the face.

LMAO at the IDIOT TROLL.

I know an IDIOT TROLL when I see him post.

And I have been punched in the face before, but not by anyone of real intelligence.

[DraftBoy]

it's not a fallacy, draftboy. we are supposed to believe that tom brady is a legal scholar and didn't want to create a precendent.

Yes it is, and who said you're supposed to believe that?


That's the obvious truth to an average person? Someone has accused him of somethingn against the rules and he's not only refused, but destroyed the phone. that's the act of a sane person? Ok. Maybe for something more significant that would be true, but for a deflated ball, he went that far? the obvious truth is that he's done a lot more and the phone would point that out.

That's not the question we're talking about. I don't care about his innocence or guilt, the question is about the legal authority for the NFL to request that Brady turn over the phone. The idea that him having nothing or something to hide is irrelevant to the question I'm asking.

[DynaPaul]

He had it coming. The whole organization got off light on SpyGate and the owners finally had enough of their shenanigans to put the hammer down on Goodell going soft on his buddy Bilbo Kraft. At this point it's for the survival of the league and Brady got to be the scapegoat. Personally I think Belichick should go with him. Just the guy's behavior alone shows that he's not innocent and why people like Spartacus are defending him is beyond me. No we don't hate the Patriots because of their success because if that were true we'd hate every dynasty out there. We hate them because their success has been the result of deception with no one doing anything to bring them back within the rules. If Buffalo did it I would not be happy about it either.

[trapezeus]

Yes it is, and who said you're supposed to believe that?



That's not the question we're talking about. I don't care about his innocence or guilt, the question is about the legal authority for the NFL to request that Brady turn over the phone. The idea that him having nothing or something to hide is irrelevant to the question I'm asking.

it was proven the balls were deflated. it is now in the employers hands to sort out what happened. "do you want to provide evidence to support your side. Would you provide the phone." It was denied at the outset.

it wasn't required, but if you aren't going to defend yourself and hide behind some legal precedent BS well after the fact, then he got what he deserved. suspension. the report said more likely than not, (meaning what is believable) is that he did it.

And in the appeal process he said he went on to destroy it. would you do that if you were innocent. even if that was your process. he said after the NFL said they wouldn't need the phone, he destroyed the phone. but why the hell would you do that? it's still up in the air. if you have a case, you keep your documents ready to go.

and sure, make them go to court if you are hell bent on on the legal process. but he doesn't have it for court now. we are supposed to believe him...just because.

i hope when the upheld the suspension they also said the huge circle of protection they have provided him from tuck rule to barely even being able to touch him is a thing of the past. if the NFL didn't protect him enough for him to have to suffer this "injustice", they should him know they aren't up for it when he gets back.

Let him know what the other 31 qbs who play face every season.

[sudzy]

the question is about the legal authority for the NFL to request that Brady turn over the phone.

Of course they have the legal authority to request Brady to turn over his phone. They obviously don't have the legal authority to make him. I have every right to request to see you phone, just like you have every right to tell me to go to hell. I just think if I had done nothing wrong and my reputation was taking the beating that Tom's is, I would do everything I could to prove my innocents. Which means turning over the phone.

[YardRat]

Sure, but that's the use of personal property for business purposes. That's not what occurred here.

If Brady is texting back and forth with the ball boys regarding the deflation of game balls for use on Sundays it absolutely is what occurred here. His phone, being used for business.

[casdhf]

It's certainly within their right to ask, but that's not the question. The question is do they have the legal authority to do so?

My question isn't about Brady's guilt or innocence, because frankly I don't care. The nothing to hide argument is a fallacy.

- - - Updated - - -



Fair point.
Big words. Hiding behind the constitution here? Take a look at the CBA. I think the league has the ability to pretty much do whatever they want during an investigation. Playing in the league is a privilege, not a right.

- - - Updated - - -


It's certainly within their right to ask, but that's not the question. The question is do they have the legal authority to do so?

My question isn't about Brady's guilt or innocence, because frankly I don't care. The nothing to hide argument is a fallacy.

- - - Updated - - -



Fair point.
Big words. Hiding behind the constitution here? Take a look at the CBA. I think the league has the ability to pretty much do whatever they want during an investigation. Playing in the league is a privilege, not a right.

[YardRat]

Just a tidbit from the standard player contract...

15.INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a bribe offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling activity; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/or to terminate this contract.

[JoeMama]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MT8nBhkh4NE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[DraftBoy]

it was proven the balls were deflated. it is now in the employers hands to sort out what happened. "do you want to provide evidence to support your side. Would you provide the phone." It was denied at the outset.

it wasn't required, but if you aren't going to defend yourself and hide behind some legal precedent BS well after the fact, then he got what he deserved. suspension. the report said more likely than not, (meaning what is believable) is that he did it.

And in the appeal process he said he went on to destroy it. would you do that if you were innocent. even if that was your process. he said after the NFL said they wouldn't need the phone, he destroyed the phone. but why the hell would you do that? it's still up in the air. if you have a case, you keep your documents ready to go.

and sure, make them go to court if you are hell bent on on the legal process. but he doesn't have it for court now. we are supposed to believe him...just because.

i hope when the upheld the suspension they also said the huge circle of protection they have provided him from tuck rule to barely even being able to touch him is a thing of the past. if the NFL didn't protect him enough for him to have to suffer this "injustice", they should him know they aren't up for it when he gets back.

Let him know what the other 31 qbs who play face every season.

I never made a case that he didn't get what he deserved. You're confusing my question, I'm not asking it as a defense of Brady, because I don't care about what happens to him or this issue. I'm simply interested in what legal authority the NFL has in this situation. Especially since it was the league and not his team asking for the phone.

I have no interest in trying to understand or make assumptions about why he destroyed his phone, though I would say that anybody who knows anything about smart phones or legal procedures know that releasing the fact that he destroyed the phone was a PR move by the NFL because it doesn't matter. The physical phone is not the only way to get the information that was contained on it. A recent Wired magazine piece talked about how its a BS bit of info because the NFL could try and subpoena the electronic records. Which again gets me back to my question, do they have the legal authority to obtain those?

Again the rest of your post doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm trying to get at.

- - - Updated - - -


Big words. Hiding behind the constitution here? Take a look at the CBA. I think the league has the ability to pretty much do whatever they want during an investigation. Playing in the league is a privilege, not a right.

Ok...so cite that part of the CBA then...

[DraftBoy]

If Brady is texting back and forth with the ball boys regarding the deflation of game balls for use on Sundays it absolutely is what occurred here. His phone, being used for business.

And if he denies that, then we're supposed to just take your word for it? That's the situation we're in. He's not admitting to conducting business on his personal phone, so unless you're telling me the standard for this kind of thing should start at hearsay we're at an impasse.

- - - Updated - - -


Of course they have the legal authority to request Brady to turn over his phone. They obviously don't have the legal authority to make him. I have every right to request to see you phone, just like you have every right to tell me to go to hell. I just think if I had done nothing wrong and my reputation was taking the beating that Tom's is, I would do everything I could to prove my innocents. Which means turning over the phone.

Why even accept the premise of the accusation in the first place?

[Joe Fo Sho]

Why even accept the premise of the accusation in the first place?

Because it has the potential to result in a 4 game suspension and cost you over a million dollars.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Just a tidbit from the standard player contract...

15.INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a bribe offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling activity; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/or to terminate this contract.






Does this also apply to the commissioner and other league employees and contractors, or is it only players that can negatively affect the integrity of the game?

[JoeMama]

Well, we do know Roger friggin' Goodell ain't no bastion of integrity.

Not to defend Brady, but Paul Tagliabue must be pissed at the way Goodell is hurting the sport he built into something great.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Does this also apply to the commissioner and other league employees and contractors, or is it only players that can negatively affect the integrity of the game?

Greg Williams, Sean Payton, Bill Belichick, Robert Kraft, and Jim Irsay are examples of non-players that have been fined/suspended for things related to the integrity of the game or an act detriment to the league.

[DraftBoy]

Because it has the potential to result in a 4 game suspension and cost you over a million dollars.
And he claims he'll be challenging that in the Court of Law. Doesn't mean he has to accept the premise of the accusation.

[Joe Fo Sho]

And he claims he'll be challenging that in the Court of Law. Doesn't mean he has to accept the premise of the accusation.

Handing over your phone doesn't necessarily mean you've accepted the 'premise of the accusation.' He doesn't have to accept the premise of the accusation to comply with the investigation. AP sure didn't accept the premise of his accusation.

[trapezeus]

i see your point draftboy. the league does not have legal authority to require it. Fine.

But if the evidence says he is more than likely guilty and the player provides no rebuttal, the league is legally allowed to proceed with its decision. As any employer is. and if its viewed to be prejudicial or done as a vendetta, the employee can take it to court.

but the court of law is going to look at destroying evidence a lot harsher than your employer. I don't know the finer pieces of how this is going to playout, but the initial items look like brady has a huge uphill climb. and this time there are no refs to throw flags to make it easier for him.

[better days]

i see your point draftboy. the league does not have legal authority to require it. Fine.

But if the evidence says he is more than likely guilty and the player provides no rebuttal, the league is legally allowed to proceed with its decision. As any employer is. and if its viewed to be prejudicial or done as a vendetta, the employee can take it to court.

but the court of law is going to look at destroying evidence a lot harsher than your employer. I don't know the finer pieces of how this is going to playout, but the initial items look like brady has a huge uphill climb. and this time there are no refs to throw flags to make it easier for him.

Common sense says if Brady was innocent & had nothing to hide, he would have been more than happy to comply with the NFL's request for his phone records that relate to the investigation.

The fact Brady destroyed his phone should be enough for IDIOTS & Pats* fans to realize Brady CHEATED.

And even if his suspension is reduced to 0 games by the Court, that does not mean anyone will think Brady is less guilty of Cheating than if he serves the full 4 game suspension.

[Bill Cody]

If Brady is texting back and forth with the ball boys regarding the deflation of game balls for use on Sundays it absolutely is what occurred here. His phone, being used for business.

It's really an interesting question. If this was a team phone clearly Brady would need to turn it over.

The only time I can remember the league asking for someone's phone was when Brett Favre was harassing that Jets cheerleader, sending her dick pics, etc and the league said they wanted to see his phone. Brett declined and I think the punishment was a $25,000 fine.

The thing is, the league did get both McNally and Jastremski's phones. They have all the texts both in and out including from Brady. The also got Bellichick's phone.

[SpikedLemonade]

"Cheater Cheater Pumpkin Eater..."

Grow up!

[casdhf]

- - - Updated - - -



Ok...so cite that part of the CBA then... Read the pages in the 300s.

[DraftBoy]

Handing over your phone doesn't necessarily mean you've accepted the 'premise of the accusation.' He doesn't have to accept the premise of the accusation to comply with the investigation. AP sure didn't accept the premise of his accusation.

Disagree, if the accused feels as though the accusation is BS and the accuser has no legal authority to demand anything then by complying with the request you are accepting the premise that you may have done something wrong. Brady is under no legal requirement to turn over his phone so why should he? The idea that he should have nothing to hide is a fallacy since he's under no obligation to prove his own innocence.

[DraftBoy]

i see your point draftboy. the league does not have legal authority to require it. Fine.

But if the evidence says he is more than likely guilty and the player provides no rebuttal, the league is legally allowed to proceed with its decision. As any employer is. and if its viewed to be prejudicial or done as a vendetta, the employee can take it to court.

but the court of law is going to look at destroying evidence a lot harsher than your employer. I don't know the finer pieces of how this is going to playout, but the initial items look like brady has a huge uphill climb. and this time there are no refs to throw flags to make it easier for him.

He has provided a rebuttal, he said he didn't do it.

You're making an assumption about what the court will do, but we don't know how they'll view that. If they determine that the NFL has no right to the phone then why would they view a person destroying his own property harshly? That doesn't make any sense.

Brady is absolutely screwed, but like I said I don't really care about his outcome.

[trapezeus]

fine, don't give the phone to the employer, but you would keep it for the court case. you can be innocent and not comply. but destroying your side of the arguement is the nail in the coffin. and because he did that, it seems like he's conveniently talking about legal precedent.

if it was me and i was innocent and didn't want to hand the phone in as principal, i'd sure as hell keep all the evidence, have it go to court and then win decisively.

for the actual football side of things, i hope the nfl stops protecting brady with all the BS calls. we'll see how much he enjoys being a quarterback when he's treated like the rest of them.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Greg Williams, Sean Payton, Bill Belichick, Robert Kraft, and Jim Irsay are examples of non-players that have been fined/suspended for things related to the integrity of the game or an act detriment to the league.

That's not what I asked.

None of these people are the commissioner, or league employees or contractors.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Common sense says if Brady was innocent & had nothing to hide, he would have been more than happy to comply with the NFL's request for his phone records that relate to the investigation.


:rofl:

You as the arbiter of commom sense?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

You'd make a great Gestapo officer. All you need is a pair of wire rimmed glasses and some practice holding your cigarette backwards...

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA1Nlg4MTY=/z/khIAAOSwq5lTlvn5/$_35.JPG

[Joe Fo Sho]

That's not what I asked.


or is it only players that can negatively affect the integrity of the game?

:question:


None of these people are the commissioner, or league employees or contractors.

I guess you'll have to read the writing that's in their contracts, obviously. The language is different for everybody, especially contractors that may have their own contracts.

[swiper]

:rofl:

You as the arbiter of commom sense?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

You'd make a great Gestapo officer. All you need is a pair of wire rimmed glasses and some practice holding your cigarette backwards...

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA1Nlg4MTY=/z/khIAAOSwq5lTlvn5/$_35.JPG

I laughed and laughed. Then I laughed some more.

[swiper]

Disagree, if the accused feels as though the accusation is BS and the accuser has no legal authority to demand anything then by complying with the request you are accepting the premise that you may have done something wrong. Brady is under no legal requirement to turn over his phone so why should he? The idea that he should have nothing to hide is a fallacy since he's under no obligation to prove his own innocence.

You are lost here. No the NFL isn't a legal authority. But it's a business that Brady works for. They have printed rules. They have the right to ask for the phone to see if he broke company rules based on that. Brady can refuse, but if he does fight this, it will go to a legal authority who will ask.


Brady is under no legal requirement to turn over his phone so why should he?

Because his boss feels he has broken company policy based on evidence given to him. He meted out a fine. Either Brady serves the sentence given to him or he gives the phone to prove his innocence.

[Bill Cody]

it was proven the balls were deflated.

Was it? The only way they "proved" it is by ignoring what Walt Coleman, the ref who actually checked the balls before the game, said about which gauge he used. If you believe Walt the amount of decompression falls well within the parameters of the ideal gas law. The league leaked a false story to Chris Mortensen (see link) and then failed to correct it for 4 months. Without that leak to Mort there is no deflategate.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/mortensen-skips-boston-radio-interview-for-false-psi-report/ar-BBlgwIA?ocid=iehp

[CommissarSpartacus]

:question:



I guess you'll have to read the writing that's in their contracts, obviously. The language is different for everybody, especially contractors that may have their own contracts.

Why are you quibbling? Because I didn't say players, coaches and owners? You know who I'm talking about - Goodell, the people he employs and the people he hands contracts out to.

There are people who work for the league who used to work or play for one or more of the various teams who play significant roles in this drama. Is Goodell investigating them?

[better days]

Was it? The only way they "proved" it is by ignoring what Walt Coleman, the ref who actually checked the balls before the game, said about which gauge he used. If you believe Walt the amount of decompression falls well within the parameters of the ideal gas law. The league leaked a false story to Chris Mortensen (see link) and then failed to correct it for 4 months. Without that leak to Mort there is no deflategate.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/mortensen-skips-boston-radio-interview-for-false-psi-report/ar-BBlgwIA?ocid=iehp

There is a LOT of circumstantial evidence that the equipment guys deflated footballs for Brady.

And Hernandez was convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence.

[ICRockets]

We've known for months that Brady intended to go to court to fight a possible suspension if he had to. Legally, I don't believe he had an obligation to hand over his phone to the NFL. But if he had even mediocre legal advice, he'd have been encouraged not to destroy evidence that could exonerate him in court. I just don't see a way to make sense of his decision to destroy the phone if it did not have incriminating texts on it.

[DraftBoy]

fine, don't give the phone to the employer, but you would keep it for the court case. you can be innocent and not comply. but destroying your side of the arguement is the nail in the coffin. and because he did that, it seems like he's conveniently talking about legal precedent.

if it was me and i was innocent and didn't want to hand the phone in as principal, i'd sure as hell keep all the evidence, have it go to court and then win decisively.

for the actual football side of things, i hope the nfl stops protecting brady with all the BS calls. we'll see how much he enjoys being a quarterback when he's treated like the rest of them.

So would I, but it's not about what you or I would do.

[DraftBoy]

You are lost here. No the NFL isn't a legal authority. But it's a business that Brady works for. They have printed rules. They have the right to ask for the phone to see if he broke company rules based on that. Brady can refuse, but if he does fight this, it will go to a legal authority who will ask.

That point has been made and I've asked for that citation, but haven't received it yet. I'm not sure that's what will happen in a civil proceeding which is what this is. You're basically saying the Court will grant the NFL the legal right to subpoena the phone (or records), and I'm not sure that will happen. Again that's why I'm asking the question.


Because his boss feels he has broken company policy based on evidence given to him. He meted out a fine. Either Brady serves the sentence given to him or he gives the phone to prove his innocence.

This isn't an either or type of question. Brady being suspended isn't really relevant.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Why are you quibbling? Because I didn't say players, coaches and owners? You know who I'm talking about - Goodell, the people he employs and the people he hands contracts out to.

There are people who work for the league who used to work or play for one or more of the various teams who play significant roles in this drama. Is Goodell investigating them?

I'm not quibbling. I'm just wondering why you can't ask the question that you actually want to ask. Who do you want Goodell to investigate and why? Troy Vincent?

[Bill Cody]

There is a LOT of circumstantial evidence that the equipment guys deflated footballs for Brady.

And Hernandez was convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence.

wow nice comparison

[SpikedLemonade]

wow nice comparison

"but...but...but...both Brady and Hernandez play on New England Cheaters..."

The mentality of a 6 year old rather than a 60 year old.

[cookie G]

That point has been made and I've asked for that citation, but haven't received it yet. I'm not sure that's what will happen in a civil proceeding which is what this is. You're basically saying the Court will grant the NFL the legal right to subpoena the phone (or records), and I'm not sure that will happen. Again that's why I'm asking the question.



This isn't an either or type of question. Brady being suspended isn't really relevant.

A few bullet points:

-In a civil proceeding, they could, and would subpoena phone records...and would make a discovery request. It would far more broad than what the NFL investigator made, which was one of the most narrowly tailored requests you will find.

-But in a civil proceeding...you don't have a right to seize a phone either...you can ask for records. But in a civil proceeding, like the nfl investigtation scheme, if they aren't produced when requested, sanctions are possible.

-Here...the request was made ONLY for a limited set of records, directly relevant to the investigation at hand.

-Here...the player was under an affirmative duty, via the NFL Code of Conduct, to provide honest answers to questions and all documents requested.

-Certain protections given in a criminal or civil matter don't apply in an employer/employee setting, especially when there is an express "duty to cooperate" clause as a part of the employment agreement(s). Many employees, for instance, might try to plead the 5th, and that might work as far as a criminal investigation or often in a civil suit, but it doesn't work too well against an employer. "Talk or walk" is the common catchphrase many times.

I don't know if people realize how much effect the duty to cooperate clause has on this matter.

[cookie G]

"Cheater Cheater Pumpkin Eater..."

Grow up!

Eh...give me the old Raiders..when the Raiders were the Raiders...they cheated, you knew they cheated, they knew they cheated, they were proud of their cheating. It was one of the things that made them the Raiders.

None of this "Oh boo hoo, everyone's picking on me, I didn't do anything wrong, why does everyone hate me" crap..

When Ken Stabler smiled at a camera, he was saying, "chalk another one up for the bad guys".

That's why I've always liked Uppy's comments on this..."yeah, we cheated, stfu!"

[DraftBoy]

A few bullet points:

-In a civil proceeding, they could, and would subpoena phone records...and would make a discovery request. It would far more broad than what the NFL investigator made, which was one of the most narrowly tailored requests you will find.

A couple of questions...Is there any argument for relevance here? What does Brady's phone records exactly prove, especially with the records they already have from McNally and the other guy? This case isn't just about his phone, it's about a much broader issue. Other than that argument I can't think of one that Brady's camp would make to block this discovery. You?


-But in a civil proceeding...you don't have a right to seize a phone either...you can ask for records. But in a civil proceeding, like the nfl investigtation scheme, if they aren't produced when requested, sanctions are possible.

Yes, which is why the NFL's release that Brady destroyed the phone is more about PR than actual substance.


-Here...the request was made ONLY for a limited set of records, directly relevant to the investigation at hand.

Which would shoot a large hole in any argument as to relevance, I would assume?


-Here...the player was under an affirmative duty, via the NFL Code of Conduct, to provide honest answers to questions and all documents requested.

Technically isn't him telling them that he destroyed the phone an honest answer to the question or request for the phone?


-Certain protections given in a criminal or civil matter don't apply in an employer/employee setting, especially when there is an express "duty to cooperate" clause as a part of the employment agreement(s). Many employees, for instance, might try to plead the 5th, and that might work as far as a criminal investigation or often in a civil suit, but it doesn't work too well against an employer. "Talk or walk" is the common catchphrase many times.

I don't know if people realize how much effect the duty to cooperate clause has on this matter.

Thanks for the info!

[swiper]

That point has been made and I've asked for that citation, but haven't received it yet. I'm not sure that's what will happen in a civil proceeding which is what this is. You're basically saying the Court will grant the NFL the legal right to subpoena the phone (or records), and I'm not sure that will happen. Again that's why I'm asking the question.



No you're not. What's happening is both parties failed to settle a dispute and they've asked the court to find the truth. No one's granting the NFL legal right to subpoena the phone. This is the court's job. To find the truth and render justice.

[swiper]

A few bullet points:

-In a civil proceeding, they could, and would subpoena phone records...and would make a discovery request. It would far more broad than what the NFL investigator made, which was one of the most narrowly tailored requests you will find.

-But in a civil proceeding...you don't have a right to seize a phone either...you can ask for records. But in a civil proceeding, like the nfl investigtation scheme, if they aren't produced when requested, sanctions are possible.

-Here...the request was made ONLY for a limited set of records, directly relevant to the investigation at hand.

-Here...the player was under an affirmative duty, via the NFL Code of Conduct, to provide honest answers to questions and all documents requested.

-Certain protections given in a criminal or civil matter don't apply in an employer/employee setting, especially when there is an express "duty to cooperate" clause as a part of the employment agreement(s). Many employees, for instance, might try to plead the 5th, and that might work as far as a criminal investigation or often in a civil suit, but it doesn't work too well against an employer. "Talk or walk" is the common catchphrase many times.

I don't know if people realize how much effect the duty to cooperate clause has on this matter.

And I think you would agree that wrong-doers are often afraid that this wider request for information that will be requested opens him up for being charged for any other wrongs they may come across in looking at that information.

[CommissarSpartacus]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-nfls-basic-due-process-is-the-real-issue-in-the-deflategate-controversy/2015/07/30/ebda3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop_b

DeflateGate’s real issue: Due process

By Sally Jenkins Columnist July 30

About that exploding cellphone. You know, the one NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell seems to think belonged to Machine Gun Kelly and was used in the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby, as well as the Krupp diamond theft. The one that Ted Wells said he didn’t want or need to complete his investigation into DeflateGate. The one the NFL’s own investigator said wasn’t necessary to the case.

That one.

There are two separate issues here. One is whether Brady and the Patriots knowingly softened game balls in the AFC championship game — and it seems clear from the league’s own recent rule changes that it doesn’t have enough evidence one way or the other on that, given its sloppy procedures and the fact that it treated ball inflation as not worth monitoring. The second, larger matter is that of the league’s basic due process.

Watching this case closely and curiously is John Dowd, the special counsel who conducted Major League Baseball’s investigation into Pete Rose and got him banned from the game. As a neutral observer, Dowd finds the abuse of process in DeflateGate to be the real scandal. “I still don’t know what this is about. . . . Like ‘Seinfeld,’ this is about nothing,” he said in an e-mail. He called Goodell’s ruling against Brady based on a sudden issue over Brady’s cellphone “an ambush” and added, “The entire NFL disciplinary process lacks integrity and fairness.”

...more...

[Strongman]

And I think you would agree that wrong-doers are often afraid that this wider request for information that will be requested opens him up for being charged for any other wrongs they may come across in looking at that information.

I think t his is very likely. There was probably an incriminating text that indicates it wasn't a one time phenomenon and spent back for years.

[sudzy]

Just for argument let's say he did it. And the moment it can out, Brady said, " I told the equipment guys like my football a little under inflated and to push the rule as much as they could. If the rule was broken, I'm sorry, that's on me. Belichick and the Patriots had no knowledge of this." What would have happened? It would have been the talk of Super Bowl week (it was anyways) and Brady would have been fined. End of it. The NFL probably wouldn't have investigated something that someone admitted to. Probably no suspensions, definitely no loss of draft choices and no team fine. If he did do it, he's cost his team a ton, putting himself before the Patriots

[DynaPaul]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-nfls-basic-due-process-is-the-real-issue-in-the-deflategate-controversy/2015/07/30/ebda3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop_b

DeflateGate’s real issue: Due process


Give it up, he's guilty. You're not going to convince anyone on this board that he isn't.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

A couple of questions...Is there any argument for relevance here? What does Brady's phone records exactly prove, especially with the records they already have from McNally and the other guy? This case isn't just about his phone, it's about a much broader issue. Other than that argument I can't think of one that Brady's camp would make to block this discovery. You?

It's possible there were messages Brady tried to send that weren't delivered, those would still appear in his outgoing message box but not in the equipment managers'. Or there could have been messages that the managers deleted from their phone that Brady did not. It's also possible there were messages to other people.

Brady's lawyers also supposedly produced a letter from his cell phone provider claiming that the content of those messages were lost. Which makes sense, while all providers save text message metadata none of them save the content much longer then it takes to deliver it. So Brady's phone was the last copy of that information.

In any event, both sides in the NY case said they weren't going to seek additional evidence so sadly we won't get the spectacle of a discovery fight or either man under oath.

[Ingtar33]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-nfls-basic-due-process-is-the-real-issue-in-the-deflategate-controversy/2015/07/30/ebda3b02-3666-11e5-9d0f-7865a67390ee_story.html?tid=pm_sports_pop_b

He called Goodell’s ruling against Brady based on a sudden issue over Brady’s cellphone “an ambush”

It wasn't an ambush unless Brady's lawyers are worthless it was 100% predictable. I made a post on this issue a couple of months ago that brady not turning over his cell phone will ultimately be the reason the league HAS to suspend him. My point at the time (restated and rewritten because i can't be bothered to look it up) was this-

setting aside the footballs, their level of inflation or even if there was an advantage to it, there was a seemingly credible charge of cheating brought against Brady and the Pats. Cheating, fixing, tampering are the REASON OF EXISTENCE of a commissioner of a major sports league. it was the whitesox scandal which created the very first commissioner for a major sports league, and it's shadow has lead all other major sports league to create the commission position. So we have a charge of cheating, and the league has to take it seriously. It investigates, and in the process of the investigation, they're lead to the player most likely to have orchestrated the situation, Brady. however that player refused to cooperate fully with the investigation.

Now there are several issues at play at this point.

1) the league's investigator recommended 4 games by comparing the standard applied to steroid users. The leagues own language on steroid use states clearly that the league did not need to prove a "competitive advantage" was gained only that the attempt to gain the advantage had occurred.
2) Unlike with steroids there is no chemical, objective scientific test that can be given to the footballs to determent if they had been intentionally deflated. We can only have an investigation. That investigation made a strong case that Brady intentionally had them deflated.
3) Brady refused to cooperate with the investigation fully, by denying the league access to his cell phone.

so Goodel was in between a rock and a hard place.

If he reduced or waved the suspension, even though the suspected player had refused to cooperate fully (and in fact denied the league access to or destroyed the very evidence which might exonerate or condemn him), he would have set the precedent that it was ok to "cheat" as long as you destroyed the evidence or at least withhold the evidence from a league investigation into whether a player had attempted to gain a competitive advantage or not. In short if a player is taking PEDs, he could deny the league access to blood or urine tests, if a player was fixing games he could deny the league access to his phone or home or email, if a player was using stickum he could deny the ref the chance to examine his hands all without repercussions.

BECAUSE the suspension was based upon the concept of cheating in an attempt to gain a competitive advantage unless brady had turned over the cell phone there was ZERO way for the league to let him off without a time machine. And his lawers should have seen that coming as well. Remember when the league was negotiating with brady for a reduction, do you recall what condition prevented an agreement from being made? they wanted the phone or access to the phone's data. without it no deal WAVING THE SUSPENSION COMPLETELY could be made. the phone was always at the heart of this because it went into the very nature of a major sports league and the very existence of a sports commissioner. Goodell was a good lawyer for the league, believe me, this is the whole sticking point. once Brady was suspended on the grounds he potentially attempted to gain a competitive advantage there was zero chance of a different outcome without the phone or its data... I suspect this will stand up in court for the same reasons i outlined above.


Just for argument let's say he did it. And the moment it can out, Brady said, " I told the equipment guys like my football a little under inflated and to push the rule as much as they could. If the rule was broken, I'm sorry, that's on me. Belichick and the Patriots had no knowledge of this." What would have happened? It would have been the talk of Super Bowl week (it was anyways) and Brady would have been fined. End of it. The NFL probably wouldn't have investigated something that someone admitted to. Probably no suspensions, definitely no loss of draft choices and no team fine. If he did do it, he's cost his team a ton, putting himself before the Patriots

It would depend on Wells. For all we know Wells might have not suggested a suspension; remember, unlike with PEDs there has to be an objective investigation, and baring a smoking gun, this "credible" alternative defense could have been credible enough to prevent the suspension. However, had wells suggested the suspension for the same reasons he ultimately did (which this argument does not refute or invalidate) we'd be at the same point today as we are now. Only difference is public opinion would be more sided with brady.

[starrymessenger]

Sally Jenkins?
isnt she the dope who remained solidly in Lance Armstrong's corner until the roof caved in on her?

[sudzy]

It would depend on Wells. For all we know Wells might have not suggested a suspension; remember, unlike with PEDs there has to be an objective investigation, and baring a smoking gun, this "credible" alternative defense could have been credible enough to prevent the suspension. However, had wells suggested the suspension for the same reasons he ultimately did (which this argument does not refute or invalidate) we'd be at the same point today as we are now. Only difference is public opinion would be more sided with brady.

I am thinking that if Brady admitted he did it from the get go, the NFL doesn't bring in Ted Wells. Why spend a lot of time investigating something someone has already confessed to? Now the question is, would the NFL have suspended him? Maybe a game, at most. I think it (most likely) would have been a fine.

[JoeMama]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q263/JoeMama025/1_zps5wbrsaio.jpg (http://s138.photobucket.com/user/JoeMama025/media/1_zps5wbrsaio.jpg.html)

[cookie G]

A couple of questions...Is there any argument for relevance here? What does Brady's phone records exactly prove, especially with the records they already have from McNally and the other guy? This case isn't just about his phone, it's about a much broader issue. Other than that argument I can't think of one that Brady's camp would make to block this discovery. You?

Sorry, busy weekend, just saw this.

As to whether the phone records are relevant, especially at the investigation phase, or in a civil case, the discovery phase. He was really asked to produce phone records related to preparation of game day balls...not necessarily records just from the equipment manager communications. These could have been communications with the GM, his QB coach, Belichick, Kraft, etc.

In addition, when you think someone is playing coy and not providing full information, a request is often made to catch them in a lie. By the way the request was phrease, I doubt that was the reason.




Yes, which is why the NFL's release that Brady destroyed the phone is more about PR than actual substance.

It was actually used as a grounds to uphold the penalty, along with his initial refusal to produce them, along with some inconsistent statements of Braday.

Reading that part of the decision, I read into it a very pissed off Roger Goodell. He really took the role of a pissed off judge. When a judge thinks someone is thumbing their nose at the court...they go off.

There is no doubt in my mind that when Brady informed them, months after the fact, that he had destroyed his phone, Goodell took that as thumbing his nose at the NFL. And he compounded it by giving a bogus reason for doing so, (his "standard practice" of destroying his old phone when getting a replacement wasn't followed with the phone he had before the destroyed phone. He still had it when this investigation began, long after it had been replaced).

Goodell took the time to point all of this out in his decision. That sounded like a ticked off commissioner to me.



Which would shoot a large hole in any argument as to relevance, I would assume?

When a decision maker goes off like Goodell did, the first question asked is whether they have grounds for what they did.

Here, I have little problem seeing the request as relevant.

Keep in mind, you have a question about equipment doctoring, with some evidence that it occured;
You have the one person with the motive to doctor the equipment in the manner alleged;
You have some questionable actions, such as a ball boy going into the ref's room, actually taking the balls, going into a room by himself with them and taking them directly to the field. (The refs were saying they never saw anyone do that before);
You have the one player with the motivation to do so state in a national press conference that he basically had no idea about how anything occured;
You discover this same player discovered to have talked to the equipment manager numerous times over a 3 day period, when he hadn't spoken to the guy for the prior 6 months. He called a meeting with him, something he had never done before;
This same player, when questioned about these conversations, said he didn't recall the specifics of any of them, except that they might have been prepartion for the SB;

In other words...you have suspicious circumstances and suspect no. 1 isn't being fully honest in his statements. Since you can't take him at his word, you are required to verify everything.

The request was relevant.




Technically isn't him telling them that he destroyed the phone an honest answer to the question or request for the phone?

Well yes...and? Because he answers one question truthfully, it isn't logical that all questions are answered honestly.

More importantly, it is not merely about answering questions, it is about producing information. he didn't.




Thanks for the info!

There is one huge caveat in cell phone and e-communication cases. Technology is evolving, and the law is barely keeping up with it. Justice Kennedy, I think, in a case about 5 years ago warned people that the law is nowhere near settled in this area and warned of using specific cases as precedent.

[cookie G]

And most importantly..the best possible statement was made by the Judge in this case when he ordered immediate settlement talks. I have a feeling he knows this isn't good for the NFL, certainly not good for its star player and probably not something he wants to make a decision in. He sounds no nonsense,

If he takes an active role, I don't have much doubt that he can get one or both sides to back down. Often a simple statement such as "neither side is going to be happy with the decision I'm going to make" is enough to get it through their heads.

[Frenchman]

It is only the beginning of Brady vs Goodell round 2!

[starrymessenger]

From what I'm given to understand the one and only substantive issue for the judge is whether due process was followed by the league or whether the actions of the Commissioner were unreasonable and such as to constitute bias. It doesn't even matter if the judge would himself have come to a different conclusion on the evidence than Goodell did. Since the CBA gives the Commissioner the authority to act as he did Brady looks to me to have no chance of succeeding. As for the judge encouraging the parties to consider a negotiated settlement I would not be surprised if this was pretty much procedural in all labour disputes. Regardless there will be no settlement here IMO because I don't see any middle ground given the positions taken.

[YardRat]

And if he denies that, then we're supposed to just take your word for it? That's the situation we're in. He's not admitting to conducting business on his personal phone, so unless you're telling me the standard for this kind of thing should start at hearsay we're at an impasse.

- - - Updated - - -



Whether he denies it or not is irrelevant to your comment...you stated, unequivocally, that it didn't happen, and you don't know that. Notice I said 'If'.

[YardRat]

Does this also apply to the commissioner and other league employees and contractors, or is it only players that can negatively affect the integrity of the game?

The snippet I posted was from the boiler-plate player contract from the CBA, so obviously that section applies only to players. I am not aware if other league employees have similar language in their contracts but I don't think it's a reach to expect that they do.

[DraftBoy]

Whether he denies it or not is irrelevant to your comment...you stated, unequivocally, that it didn't happen, and you don't know that. Notice I said 'If'.

I did? If I stated then I misspoke.

[CommissarSpartacus]

The snippet I posted was from the boiler-plate player contract from the CBA, so obviously that section applies only to players. I am not aware if other league employees have similar language in their contracts but I don't think it's a reach to expect that they do.

Whether or not it's in their contracts, there has to be the will to enforce.

The genesis of this whole cluster**** lies in the laps of the Ravens, Colts and the league.

The guy that sent the email to Grigson sayinjg it's "common knowledge" around the league that Brady ****s with the footballs "can't remember" who he heard say it.

So, what that means is that even though the Colts went to the league with allegations based on hearsay, they can't remember who that hearsay came from.

That's not kosher.

The fact is Colts management, Irsay and Grigson, have all the reasons in the world to set up and smear Tom Brady and the Pats, but has the league or it's investigators looked into a possible frame-up? Of course not.

[Meathead]

while all providers save text message metadata none of them save the content much longer then it takes to deliver it. So Brady's phone was the last copy of that information.

what? have we not seen full text messages taken from servers months later in other cases? or am i remembering that wrong

[justasportsfan]

Goodell: Hey Bob. Your boy cheated and here's what we'll do so I don't look like your puppet. You will accept fines and whatever and I will pretend to be harsh to your girl Marsha. 4 game suspension. Tell MArsha to get rid of the phone so I won't have any evidence just like the video gate . Then you will kick and whine and Marsha will take it to federal court. Of course she will win and you will look justified and I look good for defying you and we will have a laugh at this when we have dinner at your place. Mkay???

[gr8slayer]

I truly hope that he wins and does not get suspended. I want to face the Patriots with both teams at full strength.

[better days]

I truly hope that he wins and does not get suspended. I want to face the Patriots with both teams at full strength.

We will face the CHEATERS at full strength the 2nd game in any case unless Brady gets injured.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I truly hope that he wins and does not get suspended. I want to face the Patriots with both teams at full strength.

I couldn't care less about playing them at full strength. The Pats have faced us many times when we weren't at full strength and splattered us across the field.

[gr8slayer]

We will face the CHEATERS at full strength the 2nd game in any case unless Brady gets injured.

Everyone keeps giving them **** for cheating, I say good for them. They just keep cheating, and the NFL just keeps letting them get away with it. Until the NFL gets serious about stopping it, I'd keep cheating my ass off if it's going to lead to more Super Bowls.

[ICRockets]

Jesus Christ...Brady's camp continues to fumble this entire ordeal. Now it's being treated as breaking news that Tom Brady was never warned he would be punished for not turning over his cell phone.

Which would be a huge development, except Tom Brady was not suspended for not turning over his phone.

How many different ways can this douchebag squander a public feud with Roger ****ing Goodell? It's fascinating stuff.

[JoeMama]

http://www.vitamin-ha.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/deflategate-memes-09-550x550.jpg

[bleve]

FWIW...

I don't ever convict anyone based on media reports of any kind. Every "journalist" has a personal agenda. I can only make a judgement based on facts, which are generally elusive.

I'm in California, and have a guy on my hockey team who went to High School with TB. He has no allegiance to neither the Bills or the Pats. In a casual conversation un-solicited, he goes on a tirade about Brady being a lying, deceitful, arrogant, cheating A-hole of the first degree.

He has no doubt that not only the allegations are true, but suggests that they were TB's idea in the first place.

So, there's that.

[Meathead]

so many lessons all over the place on this one

[casdhf]

The transcript is terrible. He is lying.

[JoeMama]

I truly hope that he wins and does not get suspended. I want to face the Patriots with both teams at full strength.

Not me!

He's too good.

I'll take the path of least resistance every time. We ain't talkin' proud no more. We're talkin' MAKE THE ****ING PLAYOFFS AT LEAST ONCE BEFORE I DIE.

A Brady-less Pats makes that more likely.

[trapezeus]

I truly hope that he wins and does not get suspended. I want to face the Patriots with both teams at full strength.

they've been beyond full strength all these years with the cheating. why are we pretending like they aren't the team that pushes the envelop well beyond the line?

The ravens had them finished and then they pulled illegal plays out and made a game of it. that's not full strength. that is having an edge that no other team has.

[Joe Fo Sho]

they've been beyond full strength all these years with the cheating. why are we pretending like they aren't the team that pushes the envelop well beyond the line?

The ravens had them finished and then they pulled illegal plays out and made a game of it. that's not full strength. that is having an edge that no other team has.

Those plays weren't illegal, any other team could have run them.

The only problem was that a player declared himself ineligible without giving the defense enough time to adjust. That problem is on the refs, they needed to delay the snap of the ball to allow the defense time. That's not the Pats fault.

I hate NE as much as anyone, but I can't fault them for that. I'm with you on everything else though.

[better days]

Those plays weren't illegal, any other team could have run them.

The only problem was that a player declared himself ineligible without giving the defense enough time to adjust. That problem is on the refs, they needed to delay the snap of the ball to allow the defense time. That's not the Pats fault.

I hate NE as much as anyone, but I can't fault them for that. I'm with you on everything else though.

I agree the refs did were to blame for not giving the Ravens enough time to adjust.

But the CHEATERS expect the refs to help them.

[gr8slayer]

they've been beyond full strength all these years with the cheating. why are we pretending like they aren't the team that pushes the envelop well beyond the line?

The ravens had them finished and then they pulled illegal plays out and made a game of it. that's not full strength. that is having an edge that no other team has.

Again, until the NFL gets serious about putting a stop to it, I hope they keep cheating... I would.

[trapezeus]

it'll be interesting to see how the nfl officials treat the pats this year. it would be an absolute pleasure to watch brady cry to the refs and get flagged for it in a hostile road game. instead of the epitome of favored pats treatment (the jerry hughes celebrating a 4th and 1 stop with his own guy and getting a 15 yard penalty for hitting his own teammates helmet).

They have gotten so many of these little momentum turners over the years. if that stops, and there is no tuck rule, no ravens inelligible play, no phantom late hit penalties, the pats aren't that good.

[Bill Cody]

Jesus Christ...Brady's camp continues to fumble this entire ordeal. Now it's being treated as breaking news that Tom Brady was never warned he would be punished for not turning over his cell phone.

Which would be a huge development, except Tom Brady was not suspended for not turning over his phone.

How many different ways can this douchebag squander a public feud with Roger ****ing Goodell? It's fascinating stuff.

Well it's pretty much the reason Goodell cited for denying the appeal.

[ICRockets]

Well it's pretty much the reason Goodell cited for denying the appeal.

Sure, but there's a pretty significant difference when it comes to the appeals process. You can't just win an appeal automatically. You need something in your corner that can convince the person overseeing it.

Goodell didn't uphold the punishment out of SPITE for Brady not having his phone. He did it because without the phone Brady had no new evidence to provide for his defense.

[Bill Cody]

Sure, but there's a pretty significant difference when it comes to the appeals process. You can't just win an appeal automatically. You need something in your corner that can convince the person overseeing it.

Goodell didn't uphold the punishment out of SPITE for Brady not having his phone. He did it because without the phone Brady had no new evidence to provide for his defense.

I don't think so. There was a general consensus before the appeal was heard that the punishment would be lowered, some thought 2 games, others 1 game. The fact is suspension appeals almost always lower the initial punishments, that's a fact whether there's new evidence or not. Sometimes it's done by the league, sometimes by an independent arbiter. Nobody thought 4 games would stand. Goodell basically said he was keeping it at 4 because Brady destroyed the phone. In effect, he punished him for that.

As far as not having new evidence for his defense, in this country it's pretty unusual for a defendant to have to prove he didn't do something, it's like being asked to prove a negative. But Brady did try. He said he didn't do it under oath (that's different than just telling Ted Wells), he said he never texted any of the employees about PSI (and the league has their phones to corroborate that) and he cited the couple independent reviews of the Wells report that basically said the science component was junk. In the end the league has some suspicions something happened but very little proof and really none that Brady was involved. If the league holds to it's guns and demands more than 1 game and/or demands Brady admit wrongdoing Brady will not accept it. And in that case the court will probably throw the whole thing out and require a third party arbiter hear it. I don't believe as some have suggested the court will make any ruling about the facts of what did or didn't happen. This court case is about due process, Goodell being judge and jury. I'm not a lawyer, don't even play one on TV but I think the league is on shaky ground on that front.

[ICRockets]

The fact is suspension appeals almost always lower the initial punishments, that's a fact whether there's new evidence or not.

What's your source on this?

[Bill Cody]

What's your source on this?
I follow football. Rothlisberger, Bountygate, Ray Rice. Petersen, Hardy, there's probably more that have been reduced

[ICRockets]

I follow football. Rothlisberger, Bountygate, Ray Rice. Petersen, Hardy, there's probably more that have been reduced

But you didn't say "suspensions are often reduced." You said "suspensions are often reduced whether there is new evidence or not."

[CommissarSpartacus]

But you didn't say "suspensions are often reduced." You said "suspensions are often reduced whether there is new evidence or not."

Bob Kraft said in his press release after Goodell ruled on the Brady appeal that one of the reasons he decided not to battle the NFL was it's history of reducing penalties on appeal.

[Joe Fo Sho]

I follow football. Rothlisberger, Bountygate, Ray Rice. Petersen, Hardy, there's probably more that have been reduced

What happened during these appeals? Were they any different than Deflategate? Did they admit to wrongdoing? Did they provide evidence proving there actions weren't as bad as alleged? Were they humbled or did they act arrogant? Did they destroy evidence that may have proved their innocence?

[trapezeus]

funny that brady wants consistency across all cases...kind of like how the league wants the same range of air pressure in the footballs.

[Bill Cody]

But you didn't say "suspensions are often reduced." You said "suspensions are often reduced whether there is new evidence or not."

I stand by that. The facts of those cases didn't change. You're seriously grasping.

[Bill Cody]

What happened during these appeals?

The appealers said "I think the punishment's kind of heavy. How about reducing it? I won't rape/place bounties/punch my girlfiriend in the face/put huge welts on my 4 year old/threaten my girlfriend's life ever again and I mean it"

Were they any different than Deflategate? Yes these were about much more serious matters


Did they admit to wrongdoing?
They didn't need to. The NFL had actual evidence in those cases.


Did they provide evidence proving there actions weren't as bad as alleged?
Yes. Ben said "she really wanted it". The Saints said "they were just following orders". Ray Rice said "his fist slipped". Peterson said "I picked the wrong belt". Hardy said "da ***** can't take a joke"


Were they humbled or did they act arrogant?

Very very humble. They held their heads and everything


Did they destroy evidence that may have proved their innocence?

Yes. Ben had a phone tape of the girl yelling "OH BEN You're so amazing" but he threw it out. The Saints had film of the coaches threatening them with guns if they didn't take bounties, they burned it. Ray Rice has a second elevator tape with his wife coming at him with a hatchet but she said she'd cut his nuts off if he showed it so he threw it out. Not sure on the others but probably yes.

[Joe Fo Sho]

The appealers said "I think the punishment's kind of heavy. How about reducing it? I won't rape/place bounties/punch my girlfiriend in the face/put huge welts on my 4 year old/threaten my girlfriend's life ever again and I mean it"

Yes these were about much more serious matters


They didn't need to. The NFL had actual evidence in those cases.


Yes. Ben said "she really wanted it". The Saints said "they were just following orders". Ray Rice said "his fist slipped". Peterson said "I picked the wrong belt". Hardy said "da ***** can't take a joke"



Very very humble. They held their heads and everything



Yes. Ben had a phone tape of the girl yelling "OH BEN You're so amazing" but he threw it out. The Saints had film of the coaches threatening them with guns if they didn't take bounties, they burned it. Ray Rice has a second elevator tape with his wife coming at him with a hatchet but she said she'd cut his nuts off if he showed it so he threw it out. Not sure on the others but probably yes.

You can just say that you have no idea what you're talking about, it's OK.

[Bill Cody]

You can just say that you have no idea what you're talking about, it's OK.

That's not nice I gave your questions all the dignity they deserved

[CommissarSpartacus]

That's not nice I gave your questions all the dignity they deserved

That was your first mistake.

[cookie G]

funny that brady wants consistency across all cases...kind of like how the league wants the same range of air pressure in the footballs.

The weeping about the 4 games is incredible. People bring up Hardy or Rice...ok...well..


Haloti Ngata got 4 games for taking an Adderall, and he actually cooperated with the investigation.

God, people act like 4 games is suddenly the Pete Rose treatment.

Maybe the next time he's investigated he'll be a little more...cooperative.

[swiper]

The weeping about the 4 games is incredible. People bring up Hardy or Rice...ok...well..


Haloti Ngata got 4 games for taking an Adderall, and he actually cooperated with the investigation.

God, people act like 4 games is suddenly the Pete Rose treatment.

Maybe the next time he's investigated he'll be a little more...cooperative.

Lots of important people (I believe Jim Kelly was one) have publicallly suggested that Brady "man up" and just serve his suspension. He is being stubborn at this point.

[trapezeus]

brady has done one thing. cemented his status that he deserves to be treated like a god and that rules don't apply to him. if he whines enough he gets his way. he's having a hard time with this because finally he's facing resistance to his whining.

also apparently pool covers don't come in white.

[Joe Fo Sho]

That's not nice I gave your questions all the dignity they deserved

I get it, you don't know. I said it was OK. I just thought you should know the answers because ya know, you "follow football," as you said.

[Bill Cody]

The weeping about the 4 games is incredible. People bring up Hardy or Rice...ok...well..


Haloti Ngata got 4 games for taking an Adderall, and he actually cooperated with the investigation.

God, people act like 4 games is suddenly the Pete Rose treatment.

Maybe the next time he's investigated he'll be a little more...cooperative.

You have to admit that this is all about hatred/jealousy of the Patriots. TRY and take a step back for a minute. Let's say Andy Dalton was letting air out of balls. And someone from another team suspected it. And the league decided to run a sting operation in the 1st round of the playoffs (can't go any further than the 1st round, that's as far Cincy gets). And let's say they find the balls are 1/2 a pound low. And they confront Dalton and he says "I DID IT! I PUT A ****ING NEEDLE IN THE BALLS MYSELF!". What would be the outcome? Would they go with what's actually on the league books for an equipment violation and charge the team $25,000? Or would they fine the team that the league admits had nothing to do with it $1m a 1st and a 3rd round pick and suspend Dalton 4 games? And this scenario assumes Dalton admits it or they have hard evidence that he was involved, something which is not the case for Brady. These penalties are made up out of whole cloth. Balls have been tampered with before and the penalty was either a warning or a fine. If the league really cared about PSI they would have had a protocol for security for the footballs like they do with kicking balls. To say the system was lax is a huge understatement, the league has never cared about PSI in footballs.

I am NOT a Patriots fan. But the amount of blind hate that has gone into this case, and continues to go into it, is astounding to me. This whole thing is about getting the Patriots and Brady. I can understand it (sort of) for fans. But from the league? The league looks bad in this case. Very bad. There are a whole group of posters on this site that are so beat down with failure they sound like a bunch of whiny *****es. Beat NE on the field, that's the answer.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Sadly you don't.

But I "follow football." Apparently that's all it takes to not have to cite your sources or back up outlandish claims.

[Bill Cody]

But I "follow football." Apparently that's all it takes to not have to cite your sources or back up outlandish claims.

All I said was appeals generally get reduced under Goodell. It's not an outlandish claim, every single sports reporter out there predicted a reduction and they had good reason for it. And there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to it. You appeal, you get a reduction. If you want to try prove me wrong go for it, try GOOGLE. I cited a handful of high profile suspensions in recent years, maybe there's more, they all got reduced, every one. How many do you need Joe?

[Joe Fo Sho]

You have to admit that this is all about hatred/jealousy of the Patriots. TRY and take a step back for a minute. Let's say Andy Dalton was letting air out of balls. And someone from another team suspected it. And the league decided to run a sting operation in the 1st round of the playoffs (can't go any further than the 1st round, that's as far Cincy gets). And let's say they find the balls are 1/2 a pound low. And they confront Dalton and he says "I DID IT! I PUT A ****ING NEEDLE IN THE BALLS MYSELF!". What would be the outcome? Would they go with what's actually on the league books for an equipment violation and charge the team $25,000? Or would they fine the team that the league admits had nothing to do with it $1m a 1st and a 3rd round pick and suspend Dalton 4 games?

Nobody knows the answer to this, even people who follow football.


If the league really cared about PSI they would have had a protocol for security for the footballs like they do with kicking balls. To say the system was lax is a huge understatement, the league has never cared about PSI in footballs.

So it's the league's fault that Tom Brady is a cheater?


I am NOT a Patriots fan. But the amount of blind hate that has gone into this case, and continues to go into it, is astounding to me. This whole thing is about getting the Patriots and Brady. I can understand it (sort of) for fans. But from the league? The league looks bad in this case. Very bad. There are a whole group of posters on this site that are so beat down with failure they sound like a bunch of whiny *****es. Beat NE on the field, that's the answer.

The league looks fine, it's Tom Brady who looks terrible. Imagine if Brady said this:

"Yes, I discussed football pressure with my equipment managers. I like my footballs to be at 12.5 PSI, which is within the legal range on the low end. I asked the equipment guys to do everything they could to make sure my footballs are as close to that value as they could get it. Is it possible that some of the game balls were below the legal limit? Yeah I guess, I don't have a gauge on me when I'm on the field so there's no way I could have known. What I do know is that I did put pressure on the equipment guys to get the football PSI to my liking, and for that I was wrong. If there were violations to the conduct policy, the blame lies squarely on my shoulders. I will be donating my Superbowl winning bonus to my favorite charity."

What happens then? A small fine, everyone forgets about this nonsense, and it's all over with 6 months ago? I guess we'll never know, because Brady is a baby.

[Joe Fo Sho]

All I said was appeals generally get reduced under Goodell. It's not an outlandish claim, every single sports reporter out there predicted a reduction and they had good reason for it. And there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to it. You appeal, you get a reduction. If you want to try prove me wrong go for it, try GOOGLE. I cited a handful of high profile suspensions in recent years, maybe there's more, they all got reduced, every one. How many do you need Joe?

They are generally reduced under Goodell, no doubt. My point is that you have no idea why, and very few people do.

Appeals aren't just a free way to get your suspension reduced, that's ridiculous. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm asking you to back up your claim. At which point, you couldn't and made outlandish claims.

Maybe they got reduced because they promised not to take it to federal court. That's a legitimate reason, so the NFL doesn't waste millions of dollars on this crap. Brady obviously didn't make that promise. Just because he made an appeal does not grant him immunity.

[Bill Cody]

Nobody knows the answer to this, even people who follow football.

What a cop out. What's YOUR opinion? That the penalties would be the same for the Bengals? Try not to lie, I know it's hard.




So it's the league's fault that Tom Brady is a cheater?

If he did it. The proof that anything even happened is weak. But yeah the league made a mountain out of a mole hill, no doubt about it. If Paul Tagliabue was still commissioner this would have never happened this way in my opinion.




The league looks fine, it's Tom Brady who looks terrible. Imagine if Brady said this:

"Yes, I discussed football pressure with my equipment managers. I like my footballs to be at 12.5 PSI, which is within the legal range on the low end. I asked the equipment guys to do everything they could to make sure my footballs are as close to that value as they could get it. Is it possible that some of the game balls were below the legal limit? Yeah I guess, I don't have a gauge on me when I'm on the field so there's no way I could have known. What I do know is that I did put pressure on the equipment guys to get the football PSI to my liking, and for that I was wrong. If there were violations to the conduct policy, the blame lies squarely on my shoulders. I will be donating my Superbowl winning bonus to my favorite charity."

What happens then? A small fine, everyone forgets about this nonsense, and it's all over with 6 months ago? I guess we'll never know, because Brady is a baby.

He said he was particular about the balls, nothing wrong with that. He knows the balls are subject to inspection and testing after they're turned in. Did he tell his guy to tamper with balls after the inspection, that's it in a nutshell, is it not? That's what he's being charged with doing. And he won't admit it. And the league has nothing showing that he did.

[Bill Cody]

They are generally reduced under Goodell, no doubt.

You just admitted what I said was right. And it wasn't me saying they expected Tom's suspension to be reduced, it was everyone on the air. So tell me again, what is my outlandish claim?

[Joe Fo Sho]

What a cop out. What's YOUR opinion? That the penalties would be the same for the Bengals? Try not to lie, I know it's hard.

Well, since your little scenario says that Dalton cooperates and admits it...I assume the penalty would be a fine but wouldn't be surprised if he got suspended a game or two. It would be his first offense.


If he did it. The proof that anything even happened is weak. But yeah the league made a mountain out of a mole hill, no doubt about it. If Paul Tagliabue was still commissioner this would have never happened this way in my opinion.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, he did do it. It would be the leagues fault for having the rule in the rule book, but trusting the players/teams to control their own balls after they were inspected at the beginning of every game?


He said he was particular about the balls, nothing wrong with that.

He also said that in a game, he can't tell the difference between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI. You believe that? Try not to lie, I know it's hard.

I mean, he did petition the league in 2006 to allow his team to control his footballs. Weird how he would go through all of that trouble if the football was unnoticeable during gameplay.


Did he tell his guy to tamper with balls after the inspection, that's it in a nutshell, is it not? That's what he's being charged with doing. And he won't admit it. And the league has nothing showing that he did.

You'd think he would cooperate with the investigation then, right? If he really wanted to clear his name and had nothing to hide.

[Joe Fo Sho]

You just admitted what I said was right. And it wasn't me saying they expected Tom's suspension to be reduced, it was everyone on the air. So tell me again, what is my outlandish claim?

I did not admit what you said was right. This is what you said:


The fact is suspension appeals almost always lower the initial punishments, that's a fact whether there's new evidence or not.

If it's a fact, as you claim it is, it should be able to be proved. You tried to prove this statement by saying...


What's your source on this?


I follow football.

You have not backed up your claim that suspensions are reduced whether there is new evidence or not. That is an outlandish claim.

[Bill Cody]

Well, since your little scenario says that Dalton cooperates and admits it...I assume the penalty would be a fine but wouldn't be surprised if he got suspended a game or two. It would be his first offense.

It's Brady's first offense too. The report exonerated Belichick and Kraft.




But let's say, for the sake of argument, he did do it. It would be the leagues fault for having the rule in the rule book, but trusting the players/teams to control their own balls after they were inspected at the beginning of every game?

Well 1) it's pretty obvious this scandal would be avoided if the league did with regular balls what they do with kicking balls. So absolutely that's on the league, assuming the league actually cares about PSI. and 2) they do have a rule about equipment violations, they just chose not to follow the penalty which is $25000.




He also said that in a game, he can't tell the difference between 12.5 and 13.5 PSI. You believe that? Try not to lie, I know it's hard.

I don't know. I think the feel is more about the texture than the compression. The only example I have for sure is the 2nd half of the Colts game with 13.5 and he played quite a bit better. But we're will have a full season to find out won't we?


I mean, he did petition the league in 2006 to allow his team to control his footballs. Weird how he would go through all of that trouble if the football was unnoticeable during gameplay.

I think Manning was part of that petition also. Sure I think it matters to them how the ball feels. The only question is whether he told his guy to go below 12.5.




You'd think he would cooperate with the investigation then, right? If he really wanted to clear his name and had nothing to hide.

I think not turning over his phone was a mistake. He was advised not to do so by the NFLPA but he should've anyway. But the league did have the phones of the others. They did get his emails. He did testify under oath.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Maybe the next time he's investigated he'll be a little more...cooperative.

:rofl:

The Spanish Inquisition knew how to make people "cooperate".

So do the guys at Gitmo.

Maybe there's a spare waterboard around.

[Joe Fo Sho]

It's Brady's first offense too. The report exonerated Belichick and Kraft.

It's too bad Brady gets lumped in with an organization that is known for cheating. Although, he does have 3 rings from Spygate, I guess I can't feel too bad for the guy.


Well 1) it's pretty obvious this scandal would be avoided if the league did with regular balls what they do with kicking balls. So absolutely that's on the league, assuming the league actually cares about PSI.

They obviously care about the PSI. There's a rule documented in the official rule book and they measure each ball before each game. Where they messed up is assuming the players/equipment guys would not alter the footballs after inspection. Wait, isn't this what Brady petitioned the league to be allowed to do?


2) they do have a rule about equipment violations, they just chose not to follow the penalty which is $25000.

They also have rules about cheating that can be penalized at the commissioner's discretion. That's in the CBA, that the NFLPA agreed to.


I don't know. I think the feel is more about the texture than the compression. The only example I have for sure is the 2nd half of the Colts game with 13.5 and he played quite a bit better. But we're will have a full season to find out won't we?

I'm sure it's about more than just pressure, but pressure is one of only a few football characteristics I can think of that Brady cares enough about to petition the league to have his own control over the footballs.

So I assume you don't put any stock in the fumble stat anomaly that started in 2007. No, it's not hard proof, but it's a stat that no one has been able to explain. This whole PSI thing would explain it, but it's not proven. It's the most likely scenario, as the only other explanation I've heard is that Belichick finally got rid of all his fumblers by 2007.


I think Manning was part of that petition also. Sure I think it matters to them how the ball feels. The only question is whether he told his guy to go below 12.5.

Peyton was absolutely part of the petition. I actually agree with the premise of the petition, but only if you have players that aren't going to try to skirt the rules that were put in place strictly to help them out.


I think not turning over his phone was a mistake. He was advised not to do so by the NFLPA but he should've anyway. But the league did have the phones of the others. They did get his emails. He did testify under oath.

I don't necessarily blame him for not turning his phone over, although I think he would've if he was innocent in all of this. Him not turning over his phone and him destroying his phone are two entirely different things though. I don't see how anyone can support him knowing that he destroyed his phone within days of being asked to turn it in for evidence.

[sudzy]

:rofl:

The Spanish Inquisition knew how to make people "cooperate".

So do the guys at Gitmo.

Maybe there's a spare waterboard around.

I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vt0Y39eMvpI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[starrymessenger]

I don't think so. There was a general consensus before the appeal was heard that the punishment would be lowered, some thought 2 games, others 1 game. The fact is suspension appeals almost always lower the initial punishments, that's a fact whether there's new evidence or not. Sometimes it's done by the league, sometimes by an independent arbiter. Nobody thought 4 games would stand. Goodell basically said he was keeping it at 4 because Brady destroyed the phone. In effect, he punished him for that.

As far as not having new evidence for his defense, in this country it's pretty unusual for a defendant to have to prove he didn't do something, it's like being asked to prove a negative. But Brady did try. He said he didn't do it under oath (that's different than just telling Ted Wells), he said he never texted any of the employees about PSI (and the league has their phones to corroborate that) and he cited the couple independent reviews of the Wells report that basically said the science component was junk. In the end the league has some suspicions something happened but very little proof and really none that Brady was involved. If the league holds to it's guns and demands more than 1 game and/or demands Brady admit wrongdoing Brady will not accept it. And in that case the court will probably throw the whole thing out and require a third party arbiter hear it. I don't believe as some have suggested the court will make any ruling about the facts of what did or didn't happen. This court case is about due process, Goodell being judge and jury. I'm not a lawyer, don't even play one on TV but I think the league is on shaky ground on that front.

You're right. The case is about whether the Commissioner and the League exceeded their authority in doing what they did.
There are two ways for Brady to challenge the Commissioner's decision. One is to allege bias. That is pretty much a non-starter as bias requires evident bad faith. While some may be offended by certain aspects of the case, for example, the alleged "independence" of Well's, the fact that one of his colleagues questioned Brady at the appeal hearing, the fact that Goodell himself heard the appeal etc...none of that would come anywhere close to establishing bias in the legal sense of the word IMO.
A more promising approach for Brady is for him to assert that the League and the Commissioner's actions were wholly outside the parameters of the CBA, given the manner in which this document has previously been interpreted and applied. This cannot be done without also considering what exactly Brady is being punished for. It is apparent that the League's position is that Brady's behavior involves more than a minor and immaterial equipment violation, given the severity of the punishment. The perceived wrongdoing includes Brady's alleged failure to fully comply with the investigation raising an inference, based on certain aspects of the evidence (the text messages that we have, the three communications with Jastremski that could not be recovered because of the destruction of the phone, etc...) that Brady may have participated in some way in a scheme to deflate game balls. In any judicial or quasi-judicial proceeding noncompliance is regarded as exremely serious misbehavior, and for obvious reasons.
The judge need not agree with the League's conclusions in order to affirm the Commissioner's ruling and the suspension. He might himself have decided differently and still reject the appeal. The question for the judge is whether there was any basis upon which the Commissioner and the League could reasonably come to the conclusion. The decision does not have to be "right". It just can't be from Mars.
Was there any reasonable basis for the Commissioner coming to the conclusion that he did? IMO clearly there was.
And I see that Garropolo is now getting the majority of the first team reps in NE.

[trapezeus]

if this goes the full distance, isn't goodell's arguement that "i knew the team cheated on a widespread level during spygate. we destroyed the evidence to protect the team. when it came around again and it wasn't forth coming, i had to take into account what i know about that team. that they did a lot of stuff that wasn't on the up and up. That's why i made the decision i did."

and all of a sudden the NFL uses the old, "we just burn things because we burn things when we are done with it. but you got to trust me, they did bad things."

[starrymessenger]

if this goes the full distance, isn't goodell's arguement that "i knew the team cheated on a widespread level during spygate. we destroyed the evidence to protect the team. when it came around again and it wasn't forth coming, i had to take into account what i know about that team. that they did a lot of stuff that wasn't on the up and up. That's why i made the decision i did."

and all of a sudden the NFL uses the old, "we just burn things because we burn things when we are done with it. but you got to trust me, they did bad things."

The League would not say that. They might have argued "course of conduct" had Kraft appealed the team penalty but this is about Brady's behavior.

[Bill Cody]

It's too bad Brady gets lumped in with an organization that is known for cheating. Although, he does have 3 rings from Spygate, I guess I can't feel too bad for the guy.

The idea that Spygate got the Patriots 3 rings is a stretch. They went 17-1 the year after spygate. And the league didn't send the memo out about not taping until 2007. Getting the signals may have saved Bellichick some time in preparation but that's really his biggest strength as a coach, analyzing film. They would have been pretty good without the taping and they've been pretty good since they stopped.




They obviously care about the PSI. There's a rule documented in the official rule book and they measure each ball before each game. Where they messed up is assuming the players/equipment guys would not alter the footballs after inspection. Wait, isn't this what Brady petitioned the league to be allowed to do?
I think the security on the footballs was lax and from various reports the inspections also. The league may have cared but not a lot.




They also have rules about cheating that can be penalized at the commissioner's discretion. That's in the CBA, that the NFLPA agreed to.
Agreed but this penalty is a radical jump from a $25,000 fine, no?




I'm sure it's about more than just pressure, but pressure is one of only a few football characteristics I can think of that Brady cares enough about to petition the league to have his own control over the footballs.
Well Brady has said he likes the balls at 12.5 which is legal. I think all the QB's spend a fair amount of time preparing the balls, getting the sheen off, etc.


So I assume you don't put any stock in the fumble stat anomaly that started in 2007. No, it's not hard proof, but it's a stat that no one has been able to explain. This whole PSI thing would explain it, but it's not proven. It's the most likely scenario, as the only other explanation I've heard is that Belichick finally got rid of all his fumblers by 2007.
We'll see I guess right?




Peyton was absolutely part of the petition. I actually agree with the premise of the petition, but only if you have players that aren't going to try to skirt the rules that were put in place strictly to help them out.
Most players will skirt the rules if you give them half a chance.




I don't necessarily blame him for not turning his phone over, although I think he would've if he was innocent in all of this. Him not turning over his phone and him destroying his phone are two entirely different things though. I don't see how anyone can support him knowing that he destroyed his phone within days of being asked to turn it in for evidence.
He had already told Wells he wasn't getting the phone. And Wells didn't tell him that refusing to do so would result in a penalty. But I agree he should have held on to it anyway.

[Bill Cody]

And I see that Garropolo is now getting the majority of the first team reps in NE.

Not true.

[starrymessenger]

Not true.

Maybe it's not true, but that's what is being reported.
And I suspect that's Kessler's call, not Belly's.

[feldspar]

Brady is going to be extremely hard-pressed to overturn his suspension in court, unless he can show that the process was unfair under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement. I don't think it was, and I think Brady will end up serving the full four games.

Not the end of the world.

Brady made his bed in big ways, and now he has to LIE in it...pun intended.

[swiper]

Brady is going to be extremely hard-pressed to overturn his suspension in court.

Especially since the judge kind of admonished both sides and told them to come to an agreement before having to go in front of him. It seems Brady is just being unjustly stubborn at this point. I didn't care so much before, but the more he acts like an obstinate child, the more I want the man to screw him.

[Mike]

they've been beyond full strength all these years with the cheating. why are we pretending like they aren't the team that pushes the envelop well beyond the line?

The ravens had them finished and then they pulled illegal plays out and made a game of it. that's not full strength. that is having an edge that no other team has.

The plays in the Ravens game were 100% legal and very confusing if you 'overthought' the situation. They basically declared a WR ineligible and Ravens were stupid enough to continue covering the guy!

During the offseason, the competition committee made new rules preventing these sorts of plays.

[Mike]

I still don't get how so many of the Homers still think there's a conspiracy.

Clearly, the Pats & Brady were punished habdedly. Pats payed the biggest fine ever & Brady got 4 game suspension; so much for sharing away free.

To be ultra clear, Brady wasn't suspended for being involved. No, he's getting suspended for lack of cooperation. Four games for that is a lot.

[Mike]

Making Matters Worse:

Brady is suing and I say good for him. Here's why:

1. It's super entertaining
2. It's going to be a distraction for Pats all season long
3. The 4 game suspension might get lifted by judge, so Brady might not miss beginning of season.
4. Suspension might instead get served in December or January which is Way worse
5. Perjury: Brady will most likely take the stand. If he lies, and it's proven, he will have perjured himself which is a crime and will bring about criminal charges.
6. The more hi fights it, the more guilty he looks. Reminds me of every other notable athlete that has cheated/take roids. The more they deny the nore likely their guilty.

[Mike]

The question nobody is asking:

"Why does the NFL allow teams to bring their own balls?"


(PS: they use to provide them but changed rule so teams can manipulate balls to their liking)

This is in big part the NFL's fault!

[better days]

The question nobody is asking:

"Why does the NFL allow teams to bring their own balls?"


(PS: they use to provide them but changed rule so teams can manipulate balls to their liking)

This is in big part the NFL's fault!

Brady & Peyton Manning played a big role in getting the NFL to allow teams to bring their own footballs.

With Brady going over the line, I expect the NFL to take back more control of the footballs.

[Joe Fo Sho]

The idea that Spygate got the Patriots 3 rings is a stretch. They went 17-1 the year after spygate. And the league didn't send the memo out about not taping until 2007. Getting the signals may have saved Bellichick some time in preparation but that's really his biggest strength as a coach, analyzing film. They would have been pretty good without the taping and they've been pretty good since they stopped.

It's too bad every single Superbowl that Brady/Belichick won is thought to have been because of cheating in the public's eye. It really is a shame.


I think the security on the footballs was lax and from various reports the inspections also. The league may have cared but not a lot.

They cared enough to check the footballs, but they didn't think any NFL player would try to cheat enough to be as thorough about it as they should have been. Still not a valid excuse to cheat.

How often does the NFL check for Crisco on a defensive lineman's jersey? Never? Unless they get accused of it? I don't think that makes it ok to use, do you?


Agreed but this penalty is a radical jump from a $25,000 fine, no?

Sure is. Maybe that would have been the penalty had Brady cooperated with the investigation or admitted it before the investigation was needed. I guess we'll never know.


Well Brady has said he likes the balls at 12.5 which is legal. I think all the QB's spend a fair amount of time preparing the balls, getting the sheen off, etc.

I think it's a known fact that they do. Only one QB has been investigated for cheating, though.


We'll see I guess right?

Maybe.


Most players will skirt the rules if you give them half a chance.

Then they take their penalty when they get caught.


He had already told Wells he wasn't getting the phone. And Wells didn't tell him that refusing to do so would result in a penalty. But I agree he should have held on to it anyway.

At least we agree on this.

[GingerP]

How often does the NFL check for Crisco on a defensive lineman's jersey? Never? Unless they get accused of it? I don't think that makes it ok to use, do you?

The CBA covers that. It would be a fine of $8,681, for a first offense.

[ICRockets]

The plays in the Ravens game were 100% legal and very confusing if you 'overthought' the situation. They basically declared a WR ineligible and Ravens were stupid enough to continue covering the guy!

During the offseason, the competition committee made new rules preventing these sorts of plays.

My understanding is that it was more accurately that the officials did not give them proper time to identify the ineligible receiver before starting the play clock.

[Mike]

My understanding is that it was more accurately that the officials did not give them proper time to identify the ineligible receiver before starting the play clock.

It's quite common to declare an ill eligible receiver. Usually, the referee says something like "#78 is declared illeligible reciever" and then the play starts. The only difference here was that it was a reciever and not a lineman.

[cookie G]

You have to admit that this is all about hatred/jealousy of the Patriots.

Loll...I mean really....you want to make a speech about objectivity and start off with that?

If you want to claim to be objective, and have anyone believe you...you might omit assinine statements like that in the future.



TRY and take a step back for a minute. Let's say Andy Dalton was letting air out of balls. And someone from another team suspected it. And the league decided to run a sting operation in the 1st round of the playoffs (can't go any further than the 1st round, that's as far Cincy gets). And let's say they find the balls are 1/2 a pound low. And they confront Dalton and he says "I DID IT! I PUT A ****ING NEEDLE IN THE BALLS MYSELF!". What would be the outcome? Would they go with what's actually on the league books for an equipment violation and charge the team $25,000? Or would they fine the team that the league admits had nothing to do with it $1m a 1st and a 3rd round pick and suspend Dalton 4 games? And this scenario assumes Dalton admits it or they have hard evidence that he was involved, something which is not the case for Brady. These penalties are made up out of whole cloth. Balls have been tampered with before and the penalty was either a warning or a fine.

IF you're going to pruport to be objective, do you think you not leave out pertinent facts in this fact pattern?

In this Bengals scenario...

- In this "sting operation" did Bengals send employees into the Referee room to filch the game balls after the referees had checked them? (It still amazes me that they believed they could get away with something like that).
-or did the NFL pay off the Bengal's employees to steal the gameballs...just to set them up?
-did they deny access to key actors just as the investigators just as they were uncovering potentially incriminating evidence?
-Did Andy Dalton weasel his way through questions about key conversations with the employees involved? Did he say he really couldn't remember anything specific about numerous conversations taking place right after the allegations came to light?
-Did Andy Dalton destroy evidence, fail to tell the investigators that he destroyed the evidence, and then inform the NFL that the evidence was now unrecoverable?

When you want to play the alternate universe game, let me know when you're going to take it seriously.



If the league really cared about PSI they would have had a protocol for security for the footballs like they do with kicking balls. To say the system was lax is a huge understatement, the league has never cared about PSI in footballs.

sigh...I love this argument.

Did you ever think that security was "lax" because no one envisioned a team would be so blatant as to have an employee walk into the refs' room and steal gameballs? When that came out, you could almost hear a collective "Did they really
do that and think they could get away with it?" But then...everyone hates the Pats, are jealous, not smart enough to steal gameballs on their own...etc. etc.

BTW...others can make a claim of lax security, but the perpetraitor has no right to use such a defense. A person breaking into a house is guilty whether the house is unlocked, locked, or has a home security system.

Its pretty nuts to claim the NFL has to protect the Pats, ...from the Pats.



I am NOT a Patriots fan. But the amount of blind hate that has gone into this case, and continues to go into it, is astounding to me. This whole thing is about getting the Patriots and Brady. I can understand it (sort of) for fans. But from the league? The league looks bad in this case. Very bad. There are a whole group of posters on this site that are so beat down with failure they sound like a bunch of whiny *****es. Beat NE on the field, that's the answer.

There's like a disease going around where people say, "I'm not a Pats fan but"...

and then they go into a litany of craziness, take anything and everything the Pats say at face value, ignore anything that incriminates them, and come up with a bunch of conspiracy theories.

Worse...they try and claim they are somehow "objective"....

Uh huh.

[cookie G]

:rofl:

The Spanish Inquisition knew how to make people "cooperate".

So do the guys at Gitmo.

Maybe there's a spare waterboard around.

How positively Glenn Beckish of you.

You forgot to use a Gestapo reference.

You're slipping

[CommissarSpartacus]

How positively Glenn Beckish of you.

You forgot to use a Gestapo reference.

You're slipping

Nothing has disappointed me more about this sad situation than watching you climb on the bandwagon to do Jim Irsay's bidding.

[feldspar]

Nothing has disappointed me more about this sad situation than watching you climb on the bandwagon to do Jim Irsay's bidding.

Yeah, because none of this could possibly, you know, actually be Brady and the Patriots' fault.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Of it couldn't.

[feldspar]

Of it couldn't.

Well said.

Just keep making sense, buddy. All of us mouth-breathers and knuckle-draggers sure do appreciate such well thought-out clarity.

[WagonCircler]

Is this really still a thing?

I can understand this nonsense thread floating at the top of the forum the the (bird excrement that is is) during the long hiatus from actual Bills football topics, but during training camp? Really?

Yikes.

[upstart]

The reason this is a issue, is simple . The Patriots have for the last decade *****ed slapped the rest of the NFL on the field during that time.

New England has been in the Super Bowl six times during that run. With the exception of two lucky catch's it would be six rings.

You should stop the crying and admit - The New England Patriots are the greatest team in the history of the NFL.


life is good.

[Meathead]

of course

it couldnt possibly be about morals and fair play

[better days]

The reason this is a issue, is simple . The Patriots have for the last decade *****ed slapped the rest of the NFL on the field during that time.

New England has been in the Super Bowl six times during that run. With the exception of two lucky catch's it would be six rings.

You should stop the crying and admit - The New England Patriots are the greatest CHEATERS in the history of the NFL.


life is good.

Fixed that for you.

No team that CHEATS will ever be considered to be one of the greatest except by their blind fans.

You can forget about the rest of us having any respect for the CHEATERS.

[Joe Fo Sho]

The reason this is a issue, is simple . The Patriots have for the last decade *****ed slapped the rest of the NFL on the field during that time.

New England has been in the Super Bowl six times during that run. With the exception of two lucky catch's it would be six rings.

You should stop the crying and admit - The New England Patriots are the greatest team in the history of the NFL.


life is good.

It's too bad that we could have been witnessing the greatest dynasty in NFL history, but now Patriot fans have to say stuff like this to try and convince themselves that there team deserves respect.

[Joe Fo Sho]

The CBA covers that. It would be a fine of $8,681, for a first offense.

I'm sure there is something like that in the CBA.

My point is that it's not the NFL's fault if a D-Lineman uses Crisco to cheat because they don't check their uniforms every chance they can. It's the players fault for cheating.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Well said.

Just keep making sense, buddy. All of us mouth-breathers and knuckle-draggers sure do appreciate such well thought-out clarity.

It makes perfect sense to anyone living in the real world.

No one has COME CLOSE to proving ANYTHING in this travesty of justice.

All this is proving is the majority of American football fans are unprincipled dicks.

[CommissarSpartacus]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/09/roger-goodell-presiding-over-a-bogus-nfl-system-says-richie-incognito

Roger Goodell presiding over a 'bogus' NFL system, says Richie Incognito

Tom Lutz

Sunday 9 August 20

Richie Incognito has become the latest player to criticize the NFL commissioner, Roger Goodell. In an interview with Newsday, the Buffalo Bills guard is particularly scathing of the league’s disciplinary system, which has come under close scrutiny following Tom Brady’s suspension over the Deflategate scandal.

“I just think it’s bogus, the whole system in how it’s set up with Roger and the complete, absolute power he has,” Incognito said. “He has so much power and he hires independent investigators who come in and are obviously not independent. They come in with an agenda and they come in looking to find facts to back up their argument. All the facts are slanted in their favor.”

Incognito was suspended by the NFL after he was found guilty of bullying his then Miami Dolphins team-mate Jonathan Martin. The NFL’s investigator in the case was Ted Wells, who also oversaw this year’s Deflategate case.

“Ted Wells came in with a mission against me,” Incognito added. “Ted Wells came in slanted against me and everything in his report was slanted against me. There were some things in there that would have helped my cause that were left out …team-mate testimony, stuff like that. You see that in [Tom] Brady’s case. There’s a lot of stuff that got left out. There’s a lot of misinformation.”

...more...

[cookie G]

Nothing has disappointed me more about this sad situation than watching you climb on the bandwagon to do Jim Irsay's bidding.

Nah, no need to do Irsay's bidding..I'm just a run of the mill Pats' hater/Brady envyist..

...just like the rest of the world.

[better days]

It makes perfect sense to anyone living in the real world.

No one has COME CLOSE to proving ANYTHING in this travesty of justice.

All this is proving is the majority of American football fans are unprincipled dicks.

Do you even read what you are posting?

How does "Of it couldn't." post #228, posted by YOU, make any sense at all?

[cookie G]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/09/roger-goodell-presiding-over-a-bogus-nfl-system-says-richie-incognito

Roger Goodell presiding over a 'bogus' NFL system, says Richie Incognito

Tom Lutz

Sunday 9 August 20

Richie Incognito has become the latest player to criticize the NFL commissioner, Roger Goodell. In an interview with Newsday, the Buffalo Bills guard is particularly scathing of the league’s disciplinary system, which has come under close scrutiny following Tom Brady’s suspension over the Deflategate scandal.

“I just think it’s bogus, the whole system in how it’s set up with Roger and the complete, absolute power he has,” Incognito said. “He has so much power and he hires independent investigators who come in and are obviously not independent. They come in with an agenda and they come in looking to find facts to back up their argument. All the facts are slanted in their favor.”

Incognito was suspended by the NFL after he was found guilty of bullying his then Miami Dolphins team-mate Jonathan Martin. The NFL’s investigator in the case was Ted Wells, who also oversaw this year’s Deflategate case.

“Ted Wells came in with a mission against me,” Incognito added. “Ted Wells came in slanted against me and everything in his report was slanted against me. There were some things in there that would have helped my cause that were left out …team-mate testimony, stuff like that. You see that in [Tom] Brady’s case. There’s a lot of stuff that got left out. There’s a lot of misinformation.”

...more...

Ever seen Incognito's rap sheet? He's a persecuted soul himself, with a long history of being brought down by The Man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richie_Incognito

-named a First-team Freshman All-American by FWAA, The Sporting News, and Rivals.com as well as First-Team Freshman All-Big 12 (The Sporting News)

-At the same time, though, he began displaying the behavioral problems that would follow him throughout his career. During his second game, against Troy State, he was accused of spitting on a Troy State player.

-Two weeks later, he was ejected for picking a fight in a blowout loss to Penn State.

- Per NCAA rules, he had to sit out the first half of the Huskers' next game, against Iowa State.[7] In the second-to-last game of the season, against Colorado, he was flagged for a 15-yard personal foul penalty late in the game that largely contributed to the Huskers losing to the Buffaloes.[8]

-In the spring of 2003, Incognito got in a fight during practice and was suspended indefinitely by head coach Frank Solich. By this time, Solich and his staff were concerned enough about Incognito's behavior to send him to the Menninger Clinic in Topeka, Kansas for anger management treatment

-In February 2004, Incognito was involved in a fight at a party and was charged with three counts of assault. In June, he was found guilty on one of the misdemeanor assault charges and paid a $500 fine.

-On September 1, however, he was suspended indefinitely for repeated violations of team rules. The final straw for new coach Bill Callahan came when Incognito got into a fight in the locker room. Within a few weeks, Incognito withdrew from all classes at Nebraska and left Lincoln.

-In late September, he transferred to the University of Oregon, only to be dismissed from the team a week later. Head coach Mike Bellotti said Incognito failed to meet the conditions he'd agreed to meet before his arrival in Eugene. Bellotti didn't elaborate, but Incognito had been required to complete an anger-management course and adhere to a strict code of conduct.

-Incognito played and started at right guard for four games after being inactive for the first four weeks of the season. In early November, Incognito suffered a knee injury that forced him to miss the remainder of season.

-However, while rehabilitating, it was later revealed that he had been partying nightly.

-Incognito started 15 games at right guard for the Rams, also seeing some playing time at center.

-On October 17, Incognito was fined three times for a total of $35,000 after the game versus the Washington Redskins

- His violations during the game included the repeated verbal abuse of a game official, performing a "major face mask" penalty, and performing a chop block penalty. (which wasn't called during the game.)

-On December 13, 2009 during the first half of a 47-7 loss to the Tennessee Titans, Incognito drew two 15-yard penalties for headbutting Titans players.

-Head coach Steve Spagnuolo benched him for the second half, and the two got into a heated confrontation on the sidelines. It was the second time Incognito had been benched for losing his composure; he'd been pulled from the season opener against Seattle for two personal fouls.

-However, the Titans incident was the last straw; the Rams waived him two days after the game

- In 2013, former Rams general manager Billy Devaney told ESPN that Spagnuolo had given Incognito numerous chances to clean up his act, and had put him on notice that the Rams would cut ties with him if he couldn't control his anger

-In four years with the Rams from 2006 to 2009, Incognito drew 38 penalties, including seven unnecessary roughness calls, more than any other player during that span.

-On November 3, 2013, the Dolphins suspended Incognito for misconduct related to the treatment of teammate Jonathan Martin, who left the team a week earlier. Incognito's conduct was said to be detrimental to the team.[30] On February 4, 2014, Incognito's suspension was lifted

Every coach, both college and pro, every athletic director or gm, every ref, the NCAA conduct governing body, the NFL disciplining body, its invsestigators and Roger Goodell have all had it in for this guy since he put on pads.

OF course he's going to be sympathetic to the persecution of Tom Brady. Martyrs have so little support from the masses, they have to look to each other.

[CommissarSpartacus]

Nah, no need to do Irsay's bidding..I'm just a run of the mill Pats' hater/Brady envyist..

...just like the rest of the world.

The rest of the world?

Sorry, but I have a suspicion that this is just another occasion (of WAY too many to count) where the rest of the world looks at America, scratches it's head and asks "What the **** is WRONG with those guys, are they cra2y? Wait, don't answer that...".

[better days]

The rest of the world?

Sorry, but I have a suspicion that this is just another occasion (of WAY too many to count) where the rest of the world looks at America, scratches it's head and asks "What the **** is WRONG with those guys, are they cra2y? Wait, don't answer that...".

To quote you: "Of it couldn't."

[CommissarSpartacus]

-Incognito played and started at right guard for four games after being inactive for the first four weeks of the season. In early November, Incognito suffered a knee injury that forced him to miss the remainder of season.

-However, while rehabilitating, it was later revealed that he had been partying nightly.


Partying nightly while rehabilitating?

Who could POSSIBLY believe anything he says?

But, seeing as you're a representative of the greatest, fairest and most incorruptible legal system in the world, I admire the way you judge the credibility of bad guys according to whether they agree with you or not.

[CommissarSpartacus]

To quote you: "Of it couldn't."

Here's another quote you can get wrong - "You're an idiot."

[feldspar]

Here's another quote you can get wrong - "You're an idiot."

Of them not

[CommissarSpartacus]

OF course he's going to be sympathetic to the persecution of Tom Brady. Martyrs have so little support from the masses, they have to look to each other.

One other thing I don't think anyone's mentioned, seeing as we're impugning the characters of people pro and con...

Troy Vincent was the guy that broke JP Losman's leg with a cheap shot in practice, so we know he has a history of hating pretty-boy qbs.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bills/2004-08-25-losman_x.htm

Losman to have surgery on broken leg
By John Wawrow, The Associated Press
PITTSFORD, N.Y. — Buffalo Bills rookie quarterback J.P. Losman will have surgery Thursday to repair the left leg he broke in practice. Coach Mike Mularkey said Wednesday that he anticipates Losman will be back at some point this season, but won't know when until after the operation. (Related item: Team report)

Losman, the second of Buffalo's two first-round picks, broke his fibula two hours into Tuesday's practice when he fell awkwardly at the end of a run after being hit by cornerback Troy Vincent.

The initial prognosis is Losman will miss between two and three months.

...more...


And there's this to consider...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Vincent

NFLPA

Vincent was president of the NFL Players Association from March 29, 2004 until March 18, 2008. He was replaced by Kevin Mawae. On February 26, 2009 the Players Association announced that they were investigating whether during his tenure as president Vincent disclosed confidential personal and financial information about a number of player agents. It is alleged that Vincent emailed this information to his longtime business partner Mark Magnum for the benefit of a financial services firm co-owned by the two men.[5] However, the AP uncovered no evidence to support the contention that Vincent, by forwarding an NFLPA e-mail to his business partner, used agents' personal information to build his financial services company.[6]

[feldspar]

One other thing I don't think anyone's mentioned, seeing as we're impugning the characters of people pro and con...

Troy Vincent was the guy that broke JP Losman's leg with a cheap shot in practice, so we know he has a history of hating pretty-boy qbs.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bills/2004-08-25-losman_x.htm

Losman to have surgery on broken leg
By John Wawrow, The Associated Press
PITTSFORD, N.Y. — Buffalo Bills rookie quarterback J.P. Losman will have surgery Thursday to repair the left leg he broke in practice. Coach Mike Mularkey said Wednesday that he anticipates Losman will be back at some point this season, but won't know when until after the operation. (Related item: Team report)

Losman, the second of Buffalo's two first-round picks, broke his fibula two hours into Tuesday's practice when he fell awkwardly at the end of a run after being hit by cornerback Troy Vincent.

The initial prognosis is Losman will miss between two and three months.

...more...


And there's this to consider...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Vincent

NFLPA

Vincent was president of the NFL Players Association from March 29, 2004 until March 18, 2008. He was replaced by Kevin Mawae. On February 26, 2009 the Players Association announced that they were investigating whether during his tenure as president Vincent disclosed confidential personal and financial information about a number of player agents. It is alleged that Vincent emailed this information to his longtime business partner Mark Magnum for the benefit of a financial services firm co-owned by the two men.[5] However, the AP uncovered no evidence to support the contention that Vincent, by forwarding an NFLPA e-mail to his business partner, used agents' personal information to build his financial services company.[6]

Of not the.

[cookie G]

But, seeing as you're a representative of the greatest, fairest and most incorruptible legal system in the world, I admire the way you judge the credibility of bad guys according to whether they agree with you or not.

First you're disappointed in me;
then you admite the way I judge credibility of bad guys...

I CANNOT handle this emotional rollercoaster any longer! I JUST CAN'T!!.

We're through.

Make sure our boy Coastal gets a good education.

[Joe Fo Sho]

One other thing I don't think anyone's mentioned, seeing as we're impugning the characters of people pro and con...

Troy Vincent was the guy that broke JP Losman's leg with a cheap shot in practice, so we know he has a history of hating pretty-boy qbs.

So if someone injures another player they automatically hate them? Maybe it was just because it's a violent sport and these things happen.


And there's this to consider...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Vincent

NFLPA

Vincent was president of the NFL Players Association from March 29, 2004 until March 18, 2008. He was replaced by Kevin Mawae. On February 26, 2009 the Players Association announced that they were investigating whether during his tenure as president Vincent disclosed confidential personal and financial information about a number of player agents. It is alleged that Vincent emailed this information to his longtime business partner Mark Magnum for the benefit of a financial services firm co-owned by the two men.[5] However, the AP uncovered no evidence to support the contention that Vincent, by forwarding an NFLPA e-mail to his business partner, used agents' personal information to build his financial services company.[6]

So they investigated him and found nothing. Great story, very interesting. Definitely shows that Vincent was out to get the Patriots and Tom Brady. :rolleyes:

Is that really all of the dirt you found on the guy? That he might have done something one time?

You can't claim that the world is out to get Tom Brady and then come back with this garbage to try to shift blame to someone else.

[feldspar]

Troy Vincent was the guy that broke JP Losman's leg with a cheap shot in practice, so we know he has a history of hating pretty-boy qbs.



I mean, how much of a ridiculous person ARE you really?

We KNOW this? Evidence? Who needs it, right pal? Not when YOU have your mind made up based on whatever.

We know things about me based on my freakin' avatar?

You just pick and choose your ridiculous conspiracy theories. That much is clear...you'll pursue them until the sun goes down, then wake up the next day and double-down.

Ridiculous person.

Of it couldn't...that's always true.