WYS Question

[jdbillsfan]

WYS, I know you have been busy lately with Bledsoe discussions and I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I have a couple of questions.

I actually usually agree with you and I was very frustrated with Bledsoe last year, especially the Green Bay game. It was ridiculous.

But... I do have 2 quick questions for you about Bledsoe and other qb's in the league. In defense of Bledsoe:

1) Since we are constantly watching/analyzing bills games, you can see every mistake or issue you have with Bledsoe from Training camp all the way through the season. Each game is analyzed down to every snap. It is easier to see a mistake that he makes, but other teams and QB's probably go through similar issues that you may not see, because you only see highlights or a game here and there. Kerry Collins may put up similar stats, but if you go to a Giants board, I am sure they can find something to complain about.

If you watched every Saints game there is probably an issue or problem with Brooks. Injury prone or something.. who knows.

2) He wasn't the only one to blame for problems last year. Seemed like Moulds dropped a lot of balls, stopped on a route or two. Bad play calls, gilbride etc.

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. Seemed like they learned from their mistakes last year. 2nd year in the system should help.

Bledsoe is a strong arm QB with a lot of confidence and that is a good thing. He does have his weaknesses, but he hasn't even played his 2nd year as a Bill. I thought Kelly had a lot of costly int's as well, but he had other intangibles similar to Drew.

[WG]

What are the questions?

Respond to that?

[LtBillsFan66]

Football is never played to perfection.

[jdbillsfan]

Yeah, just a little response I guess. Sorry. I shouldn't have said questions.

[WG]

OK then...

To 1)

There are many aspects to a game that are normal. Dropped passes are one of them. Missed blocks, etc. But if players do that on a consistent basis, ala Fina, then they need to be removed from the starting lineup. We can expect more dropped balls just like last year, just like we can expect more poorly thrown passes that fall incomplete.

I guess when I hear that type of stuff, the first thing that enters my mind is: "OK, someone's making a defense for Drew's play using the shortcomings of other players, but unless Drew himself is perfect, he does the same things."

I.e., there were plenty of throws of his last year that didn't necessarily end up as INTs but yet were poorly thrown and didn't connect w/ the WRs. Couldn't we make the same statements in reverse then in stating why WRs didn't play better?

It's a wash there. But where it's not a wash is w/ TOs and sacks. A certain amount of sacks are normal for any QB, even Vick. But 54 become problematic. You don't have to remember back too far before you should recall how sacks were the NFL equivalent to the plague. In fact, nothing else seemed to have mattered when RJ was here, yet, all of a sudden, there's hardly a discussion about them.

As well, if Drew tosses 2 or 3 INTs that give the ball to the opponents in their own territory, and they fail to score and we get the ball right back, then that's one thing. But if you evaluate his INTs, that's not the case. He tosses horrendous ones. I won't bother wasting my time listing them for what would likely be a 30th time.

Someone, cheifly person committing them, needs to take responsibility for turnovers. Henry took a rash for 8 even though only 3 were in losses and only 2 made a big difference. All in 7 losses, again.

But w/ Drew's TOs, again, 18 of them in 7 losses, which is beyond me as to how you can ignore that, are barely mentioned.

2.6 TOs per game are beyond normal and expected. Especially when accompanied by little to no offensive production. Right?

Again, 3 INTs can be more easily overlooked when accompanied by 4 TDs, but that didn't happen. But what did happen is that Drew had well more than 2 TOs per TD. Again, that simply can't be overlooked or blamed on others. Well, it can as it has been, but we are seeking to improve, and if Drew does that every year, just as he has for the most part BTW, then it doesn't help us down the road.

To 2)

I've already gotten into some of this, but again, it's difficult to ignore a QB who puts up the only TOs in games that we lose while other aspects of the team play well and then see others get blamed for it.

As to Drew having been only in his second season, there are two problems that I have w/ that.

First, didn't we get him b/c the "transition" would be smoother b/c of his "credentials" and history?

Secondly, that statement would make more sense if he started out like he did in the last 10 games and finished off the season as he did in the first 6 games. But that didn't happen.

So the question becomes "why not?"

Here's the reason that I have: It's b/c our opponents had no idea what we were going to do, and it wasn't until several games were under our belts that they started having something to base their D strategy around. It wasn't until Belichick played us that he opened the door to showing the league that they shouldn't fear a Bledsoe led O. As a result, teams were far more aggressive than they had been. Expect more of that this season BTW.

I would think that if Drew "needed time" then his play would have improved over the last 10 instead of going down the drain w/ play not even on par w/ the league's average QBs.

Lastly, Bledsoe does have a strong arm, but how many passing plays are deep plays? It shouldn't be many. I don't think that his mentals and short throw capability is good enough to justify keeping him around only for his deep balls.

In the NFL you don't necessarily need a deep ball thrower as most teams don't have one. You do need a deep threat, but it doesn't have to be the crux of your O as it was w/ us last year. So I think the "strong arm" component to Drew's play is overrated. Not personally per se, but the "deep arm" concept in general. Just look at Brady's success w/ the same team, in fact a worse team, than Drew had for most seasons in N.E., at least offensively speaking.

Hope that suffices.

[WG]

BTW, you've never or rarely heard me even mention Drew's passes that are poorly thrown but dropped, not intercepted. That's b/c I don't think it's fair to berate a QB on the basis of components of play that are normal.

No QB has the chance to be 100% complete.

[WG]

Originally posted by billsfanone


Football is never played to perfection.

The MTV version of what I said!

LOL

I would add that "it shouldn't be played to fatality either."

[justasportsfan]

Wys, do you agree that none of your stats will translate to you being right about the future?

[jdbillsfan]

Thanks for the response.

Part of question 1 though was don't you think it is easier to point out Drew's negatives because you are able to analyze and watch every game, but that say if you were a "Giants" fan you would find similar problems with Kerry Collins or different problems?

Or Someone like Trent Green? I am sure there are issues with his game too, but since we watch every Bills game it's easier to find negatives.

No need to respond to that part though... I get the picture.

I am willing to give Drew another year though.

[MDFINFAN]

Wys, Here's where I have problems with some of your Drew statements.

1st. Drew threw for a ungodly 600 + times.
Since your OC calls the plays, I put that number on him.

2. That many throws will increase the chances of INT's.

3. It will also increase the number of sacks, based on opportunity.

4. Your OC knew the limitations of your QB, i.e. mobility and the newness and youthfulness of your OL and should have adjusted.

5. You had a pretty good RB, who I, like you, thought should have been used way more..again your OC call.

6. This was Drew's first year in this O..that in itself will caused TO's, misreads, more play breakdowns, and miscommunication that results in TO's. You've seen this game long enough to know that.

7. While your D improved the 2nd part of the year, they allowed an avg of 17 points. That's a lot of pressure on a O..especially when a normal team scores between 15-21 points to win a game. That kind of pressure causes players to press to get it done..thus Drews force throws for interceptions. I've seen it before. With that kind of avg..your O couldn't afford a 10 point game to win in any week, even when u beat us, you had to score more than 10 points. Think about that before u respond.

8. Even with a new OL, a new O after 8 years in the NE system, a lack of mobility, an underuse running game, questionable play calling by your OC..inability to adjust your O, based on what was happening to your O..Drew Threw for over 4000 yards and your RB ran for over 1400 yards..What does this tell me..that D's repected your passing game..couldn't sell out to stop your run, and couldn't over play your passing game, RB would burn them when giving the chance. All this because D's respected who was passing, did you ever see or hear one team say we're going to stop your run and force Drew to beat us? No, because they new Drew would. That made your O very scary to each team they played..I remember Zach Thomas being pissed because the Pats traded Drew within the division..the one thing Zach kept saying about Drew is that he's smart and will keep a D on their toes..They couldn't relax with him on the field..Now Drew with a good D=pats vs Pittsburg playoff win...No forced throws, even though he completed very little passes in that game, he threw them away when the play wasn't there..He knew his D would give him more chances...could he say that last year, or did he feel he had to press to get enough points to win?

You would have had to be on the sidelines to see what the strategy was to question Drew, he may have been told you've got to score to compersate for our d. If your D plays up to expertations this year, you may see a different decision maker in Drew as a result of having confidence in his D. Until then you have to give him the benefit of a doubt..The circumstance in Bufalo last year could cost all kind of things to happen..Most of your other stuff about Drew I can agree with..but the arm strength will make D's respect him everytime..

It's what he does to a opposing team's D mentally that give you a fighting chance in each game. Weather Drew's good or not, opposing D's buy into the hype, and that my friend helps you.

[Dozerdog]

POST OF THE DAY!

[Tatonka]

wow.. yeah.. excellent post...

good work..

i referred him btw.

[WG]

Originally posted by justasportsfan
Wys, do you agree that none of your stats will translate to you being right about the future?

I'm not talking about this upcoming season. I was and have been talking about this past one and the other 9 in his career.

13 TDs/16 INTs
15/15
19/21
17/13
20/14
25/27

are not good seasons for the most part. That 20/14 year was OK, but only average or slightly better.

What I am doing is explaining why I don't think things are gonna change from what they've been for 10 seasons.

I mean, think about it! Drew's strength is the long ball, right?

Well, this season, supposedly, we're going to a more rushing oriented game w/ more short-medium passes.

How do Drew's strengths fit in here and why should we expect him to play any differently this season?

[WG]

Originally posted by jdbillsfan
Thanks for the response.

Part of question 1 though was don't you think it is easier to point out Drew's negatives because you are able to analyze and watch every game, but that say if you were a "Giants" fan you would find similar problems with Kerry Collins or different problems?

Or Someone like Trent Green? I am sure there are issues with his game too, but since we watch every Bills game it's easier to find negatives.

No need to respond to that part though... I get the picture.

I am willing to give Drew another year though.

Well, I don't point out only negatives. In fact, Drew played very well in several games; Vikes, Chicago, Denver.

But what were his positives in the S.D., G.B., N.E., Jets, and the first Miami game other than that one long ball to Moulds?

I call it the way I see it. What everyone else is seeing is that he wasn't responsible for losses, when as I said, in 4 or 5 games, the only TOs were his while the rest of the team did what it was supposed to have done.

I have no trouble giving Drew credit for us winning several games largely due to his play, but I do have trouble for everyone ignoring his play when it was the primary factor in more losses than his good play was in wins.

Again, and no one's taken me up on this, presumably due to having to then concede the argument, but the only way to realize this is to grab a PBP and evaluate each game.

If you want to do that, just let me know...

[WG]

Originally posted by MDFINFAN
Wys, Here's where I have problems with some of your Drew statements.

1st. Drew threw for a ungodly 600 + times.
Since your OC calls the plays, I put that number on him.

2. That many throws will increase the chances of INT's.

3. It will also increase the number of sacks, based on opportunity.

4. Your OC knew the limitations of your QB, i.e. mobility and the newness and youthfulness of your OL and should have adjusted.

5. You had a pretty good RB, who I, like you, thought should have been used way more..again your OC call.

6. This was Drew's first year in this O..that in itself will caused TO's, misreads, more play breakdowns, and miscommunication that results in TO's. You've seen this game long enough to know that.

7. While your D improved the 2nd part of the year, they allowed an avg of 17 points. That's a lot of pressure on a O..especially when a normal team scores between 15-21 points to win a game. That kind of pressure causes players to press to get it done..thus Drews force throws for interceptions. I've seen it before. With that kind of avg..your O couldn't afford a 10 point game to win in any week, even when u beat us, you had to score more than 10 points. Think about that before u respond.

8. Even with a new OL, a new O after 8 years in the NE system, a lack of mobility, an underuse running game, questionable play calling by your OC..inability to adjust your O, based on what was happening to your O..Drew Threw for over 4000 yards and your RB ran for over 1400 yards..What does this tell me..that D's repected your passing game..couldn't sell out to stop your run, and couldn't over play your passing game, RB would burn them when giving the chance. All this because D's respected who was passing, did you ever see or hear one team say we're going to stop your run and force Drew to beat us? No, because they new Drew would. That made your O very scary to each team they played..I remember Zach Thomas being pissed because the Pats traded Drew within the division..the one thing Zach kept saying about Drew is that he's smart and will keep a D on their toes..They couldn't relax with him on the field..Now Drew with a good D=pats vs Pittsburg playoff win...No forced throws, even though he completed very little passes in that game, he threw them away when the play wasn't there..He knew his D would give him more chances...could he say that last year, or did he feel he had to press to get enough points to win?

You would have had to be on the sidelines to see what the strategy was to question Drew, he may have been told you've got to score to compersate for our d. If your D plays up to expertations this year, you may see a different decision maker in Drew as a result of having confidence in his D. Until then you have to give him the benefit of a doubt..The circumstance in Bufalo last year could cost all kind of things to happen..Most of your other stuff about Drew I can agree with..but the arm strength will make D's respect him everytime..

It's what he does to a opposing team's D mentally that give you a fighting chance in each game. Weather Drew's good or not, opposing D's buy into the hype, and that my friend helps you.

I've made some of these same claims in the past. If it were up to me, Gilbride would be gone now!

1..I do put the number of passing plays largely on Gilbride, but how many times did Drew audible out of a run and into a pass? As well, Drew could have audibled to runs, no? He also didn't seem to have a huge problem w/ it, or at least I didn't notice anything that would suggest that.

2. It's not the number of INTs MD, it's the nature, timing, outcomes, etc. He's gotta have the worst set of INTs of any respected QB last season.

3. Again, I agree, it's obvious, but again as well, sacks in key situations, leading to fumbles that end up being the difference in games, and untimely sacks when we should have been running to begin with are inexcusable when they occur w/ the frequency that they did. I'll post some of the INTs and sack results when I have time. But yes, you can blame Gilbride for some of this, but the two are w/o question "in bed together" on this one. We'll see what this season brings.

4. Did he? Does he know the weaknesses of Drew? Didn't appear that he did. I think you're giving Gilbride tremendous credit. You must remember that he threw the ball like mad w/ Leaf as his QB!!!!

5. Totally agree. But what prevented Drew from audibling some runs? Besides, given that, Drew still threw horrible INTs. He still has to take the heat for it. Besides, I'm not challenging some of these notions, what I am challenging is this faulty notion that we only won 8 games b/c of Drew and how the O carried the D all season when that wasn't the case in over half of our games. All one has to do is look at the points for/against to see that.

6. Yes, this was Drew's first year. But his play over the last 10 was abysmal! Not average, but below. There's no excuse. I remember everyone telling me that we wanted Drew b/c he'll adapt quickly! Pennington did! You tellin' me that Pennington, after putting up a season better than Drew's ever had, that he's so incredibly better? There are others as well. Part of my analysis is a comparison to the play of average QBs in the NFL.

7. #7 makes no sense given our circumstances last season. Besides, I completely disagree w/ your premise. If our D allows only 17 points this season in each game, STs included, then we'll finish 13-3. If Drew can't lead this offense with the talent that we have, to 17 points each and every week, then he isn't the man for the job. He should be able to put up 17 w/ his eyes closed.

8. On 8, any idiot could see that Gilbride simply didn't use Henry. You even agreed up top. So what is it now, Gilbride didn't use Henry, or D's feared Drew so much that they allowed him to pass for 4,000 yards. I find it interesting that you didn't use passing TDs as the milestone. I see a LOT of NFL QBs w/o the talent that Drew had, who put up more, equal to, or nearly equal to the same # of TDs as Drew did, yet, on far fewer yards.

Our passing game within itself was not efficient. We relied on the long-ball/big-play WAY too often. That's why teams started shutting us down. Teams knew that all they had to do was pressure Drew on "long ball situations" and they'd generate some TOs. Sure enough....

You are correct that much of this may in fact be his taking direction, but there's no way that it's all of it. Besides, that only explains the inordinate amount of passing, it doesn't excuse poorly thrown balls and fumbles for opponent scores or set ups.

Lastly, I don't buy into the hype that "what Drew does for you 'mentally' " means more than what he contributes via his performance. It's a nice excuse and grasping at straws, but it simply cannot be considered. At some point, solid performances have to mean more.