WYS Question

[jdbillsfan]

WYS, I know you have been busy lately with Bledsoe discussions and I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I have a couple of questions.

I actually usually agree with you and I was very frustrated with Bledsoe last year, especially the Green Bay game. It was ridiculous.

But... I do have 2 quick questions for you about Bledsoe and other qb's in the league. In defense of Bledsoe:

1) Since we are constantly watching/analyzing bills games, you can see every mistake or issue you have with Bledsoe from Training camp all the way through the season. Each game is analyzed down to every snap. It is easier to see a mistake that he makes, but other teams and QB's probably go through similar issues that you may not see, because you only see highlights or a game here and there. Kerry Collins may put up similar stats, but if you go to a Giants board, I am sure they can find something to complain about.

If you watched every Saints game there is probably an issue or problem with Brooks. Injury prone or something.. who knows.

2) He wasn't the only one to blame for problems last year. Seemed like Moulds dropped a lot of balls, stopped on a route or two. Bad play calls, gilbride etc.

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. Seemed like they learned from their mistakes last year. 2nd year in the system should help.

Bledsoe is a strong arm QB with a lot of confidence and that is a good thing. He does have his weaknesses, but he hasn't even played his 2nd year as a Bill. I thought Kelly had a lot of costly int's as well, but he had other intangibles similar to Drew.

[WG]

What are the questions?

Respond to that?

[LtBillsFan66]

:up:

Football is never played to perfection.

[jdbillsfan]

Yeah, just a little response I guess. Sorry. I shouldn't have said questions.

[WG]

OK then...

To 1)

There are many aspects to a game that are normal. Dropped passes are one of them. Missed blocks, etc. But if players do that on a consistent basis, ala Fina, then they need to be removed from the starting lineup. We can expect more dropped balls just like last year, just like we can expect more poorly thrown passes that fall incomplete.

I guess when I hear that type of stuff, the first thing that enters my mind is: "OK, someone's making a defense for Drew's play using the shortcomings of other players, but unless Drew himself is perfect, he does the same things."

I.e., there were plenty of throws of his last year that didn't necessarily end up as INTs but yet were poorly thrown and didn't connect w/ the WRs. Couldn't we make the same statements in reverse then in stating why WRs didn't play better?

It's a wash there. But where it's not a wash is w/ TOs and sacks. A certain amount of sacks are normal for any QB, even Vick. But 54 become problematic. You don't have to remember back too far before you should recall how sacks were the NFL equivalent to the plague. In fact, nothing else seemed to have mattered when RJ was here, yet, all of a sudden, there's hardly a discussion about them.

As well, if Drew tosses 2 or 3 INTs that give the ball to the opponents in their own territory, and they fail to score and we get the ball right back, then that's one thing. But if you evaluate his INTs, that's not the case. He tosses horrendous ones. I won't bother wasting my time listing them for what would likely be a 30th time.

Someone, cheifly person committing them, needs to take responsibility for turnovers. Henry took a rash for 8 even though only 3 were in losses and only 2 made a big difference. All in 7 losses, again.

But w/ Drew's TOs, again, 18 of them in 7 losses, which is beyond me as to how you can ignore that, are barely mentioned.

2.6 TOs per game are beyond normal and expected. Especially when accompanied by little to no offensive production. Right?

Again, 3 INTs can be more easily overlooked when accompanied by 4 TDs, but that didn't happen. But what did happen is that Drew had well more than 2 TOs per TD. Again, that simply can't be overlooked or blamed on others. Well, it can as it has been, but we are seeking to improve, and if Drew does that every year, just as he has for the most part BTW, then it doesn't help us down the road.

To 2)

I've already gotten into some of this, but again, it's difficult to ignore a QB who puts up the only TOs in games that we lose while other aspects of the team play well and then see others get blamed for it.

As to Drew having been only in his second season, there are two problems that I have w/ that.

First, didn't we get him b/c the "transition" would be smoother b/c of his "credentials" and history?

Secondly, that statement would make more sense if he started out like he did in the last 10 games and finished off the season as he did in the first 6 games. But that didn't happen.

So the question becomes "why not?"

Here's the reason that I have: It's b/c our opponents had no idea what we were going to do, and it wasn't until several games were under our belts that they started having something to base their D strategy around. It wasn't until Belichick played us that he opened the door to showing the league that they shouldn't fear a Bledsoe led O. As a result, teams were far more aggressive than they had been. Expect more of that this season BTW.

I would think that if Drew "needed time" then his play would have improved over the last 10 instead of going down the drain w/ play not even on par w/ the league's average QBs.

Lastly, Bledsoe does have a strong arm, but how many passing plays are deep plays? It shouldn't be many. I don't think that his mentals and short throw capability is good enough to justify keeping him around only for his deep balls.

In the NFL you don't necessarily need a deep ball thrower as most teams don't have one. You do need a deep threat, but it doesn't have to be the crux of your O as it was w/ us last year. So I think the "strong arm" component to Drew's play is overrated. Not personally per se, but the "deep arm" concept in general. Just look at Brady's success w/ the same team, in fact a worse team, than Drew had for most seasons in N.E., at least offensively speaking.

Hope that suffices.

[WG]

BTW, you've never or rarely heard me even mention Drew's passes that are poorly thrown but dropped, not intercepted. That's b/c I don't think it's fair to berate a QB on the basis of components of play that are normal.

No QB has the chance to be 100% complete.

[WG]

Originally posted by billsfanone
:up:

Football is never played to perfection.

The MTV version of what I said!

LOL

I would add that "it shouldn't be played to fatality either."

[justasportsfan]

Wys, do you agree that none of your stats will translate to you being right about the future?

[jdbillsfan]

Thanks for the response.

Part of question 1 though was don't you think it is easier to point out Drew's negatives because you are able to analyze and watch every game, but that say if you were a "Giants" fan you would find similar problems with Kerry Collins or different problems?

Or Someone like Trent Green? I am sure there are issues with his game too, but since we watch every Bills game it's easier to find negatives.

No need to respond to that part though... I get the picture.

I am willing to give Drew another year though.

[MDFINFAN]

Wys, Here's where I have problems with some of your Drew statements.

1st. Drew threw for a ungodly 600 + times.
Since your OC calls the plays, I put that number on him.

2. That many throws will increase the chances of INT's.

3. It will also increase the number of sacks, based on opportunity.

4. Your OC knew the limitations of your QB, i.e. mobility and the newness and youthfulness of your OL and should have adjusted.

5. You had a pretty good RB, who I, like you, thought should have been used way more..again your OC call.

6. This was Drew's first year in this O..that in itself will caused TO's, misreads, more play breakdowns, and miscommunication that results in TO's. You've seen this game long enough to know that.

7. While your D improved the 2nd part of the year, they allowed an avg of 17 points. That's a lot of pressure on a O..especially when a normal team scores between 15-21 points to win a game. That kind of pressure causes players to press to get it done..thus Drews force throws for interceptions. I've seen it before. With that kind of avg..your O couldn't afford a 10 point game to win in any week, even when u beat us, you had to score more than 10 points. Think about that before u respond.

8. Even with a new OL, a new O after 8 years in the NE system, a lack of mobility, an underuse running game, questionable play calling by your OC..inability to adjust your O, based on what was happening to your O..Drew Threw for over 4000 yards and your RB ran for over 1400 yards..What does this tell me..that D's repected your passing game..couldn't sell out to stop your run, and couldn't over play your passing game, RB would burn them when giving the chance. All this because D's respected who was passing, did you ever see or hear one team say we're going to stop your run and force Drew to beat us? No, because they new Drew would. That made your O very scary to each team they played..I remember Zach Thomas being pissed because the Pats traded Drew within the division..the one thing Zach kept saying about Drew is that he's smart and will keep a D on their toes..They couldn't relax with him on the field..Now Drew with a good D=pats vs Pittsburg playoff win...No forced throws, even though he completed very little passes in that game, he threw them away when the play wasn't there..He knew his D would give him more chances...could he say that last year, or did he feel he had to press to get enough points to win?

You would have had to be on the sidelines to see what the strategy was to question Drew, he may have been told you've got to score to compersate for our d. If your D plays up to expertations this year, you may see a different decision maker in Drew as a result of having confidence in his D. Until then you have to give him the benefit of a doubt..The circumstance in Bufalo last year could cost all kind of things to happen..Most of your other stuff about Drew I can agree with..but the arm strength will make D's respect him everytime..

It's what he does to a opposing team's D mentally that give you a fighting chance in each game. Weather Drew's good or not, opposing D's buy into the hype, and that my friend helps you.

[Dozerdog]

POST OF THE DAY! :up:

[Tatonka]

wow.. yeah.. excellent post...

good work..

i referred him btw. :D

[WG]

Originally posted by justasportsfan
Wys, do you agree that none of your stats will translate to you being right about the future?

I'm not talking about this upcoming season. I was and have been talking about this past one and the other 9 in his career.

13 TDs/16 INTs
15/15
19/21
17/13
20/14
25/27

are not good seasons for the most part. That 20/14 year was OK, but only average or slightly better.

What I am doing is explaining why I don't think things are gonna change from what they've been for 10 seasons.

I mean, think about it! Drew's strength is the long ball, right?

Well, this season, supposedly, we're going to a more rushing oriented game w/ more short-medium passes.

How do Drew's strengths fit in here and why should we expect him to play any differently this season?

[WG]

Originally posted by jdbillsfan
Thanks for the response.

Part of question 1 though was don't you think it is easier to point out Drew's negatives because you are able to analyze and watch every game, but that say if you were a "Giants" fan you would find similar problems with Kerry Collins or different problems?

Or Someone like Trent Green? I am sure there are issues with his game too, but since we watch every Bills game it's easier to find negatives.

No need to respond to that part though... I get the picture.

I am willing to give Drew another year though.

Well, I don't point out only negatives. In fact, Drew played very well in several games; Vikes, Chicago, Denver.

But what were his positives in the S.D., G.B., N.E., Jets, and the first Miami game other than that one long ball to Moulds?

I call it the way I see it. What everyone else is seeing is that he wasn't responsible for losses, when as I said, in 4 or 5 games, the only TOs were his while the rest of the team did what it was supposed to have done.

I have no trouble giving Drew credit for us winning several games largely due to his play, but I do have trouble for everyone ignoring his play when it was the primary factor in more losses than his good play was in wins.

Again, and no one's taken me up on this, presumably due to having to then concede the argument, but the only way to realize this is to grab a PBP and evaluate each game.

If you want to do that, just let me know...

[WG]

Originally posted by MDFINFAN
Wys, Here's where I have problems with some of your Drew statements.

1st. Drew threw for a ungodly 600 + times.
Since your OC calls the plays, I put that number on him.

2. That many throws will increase the chances of INT's.

3. It will also increase the number of sacks, based on opportunity.

4. Your OC knew the limitations of your QB, i.e. mobility and the newness and youthfulness of your OL and should have adjusted.

5. You had a pretty good RB, who I, like you, thought should have been used way more..again your OC call.

6. This was Drew's first year in this O..that in itself will caused TO's, misreads, more play breakdowns, and miscommunication that results in TO's. You've seen this game long enough to know that.

7. While your D improved the 2nd part of the year, they allowed an avg of 17 points. That's a lot of pressure on a O..especially when a normal team scores between 15-21 points to win a game. That kind of pressure causes players to press to get it done..thus Drews force throws for interceptions. I've seen it before. With that kind of avg..your O couldn't afford a 10 point game to win in any week, even when u beat us, you had to score more than 10 points. Think about that before u respond.

8. Even with a new OL, a new O after 8 years in the NE system, a lack of mobility, an underuse running game, questionable play calling by your OC..inability to adjust your O, based on what was happening to your O..Drew Threw for over 4000 yards and your RB ran for over 1400 yards..What does this tell me..that D's repected your passing game..couldn't sell out to stop your run, and couldn't over play your passing game, RB would burn them when giving the chance. All this because D's respected who was passing, did you ever see or hear one team say we're going to stop your run and force Drew to beat us? No, because they new Drew would. That made your O very scary to each team they played..I remember Zach Thomas being pissed because the Pats traded Drew within the division..the one thing Zach kept saying about Drew is that he's smart and will keep a D on their toes..They couldn't relax with him on the field..Now Drew with a good D=pats vs Pittsburg playoff win...No forced throws, even though he completed very little passes in that game, he threw them away when the play wasn't there..He knew his D would give him more chances...could he say that last year, or did he feel he had to press to get enough points to win?

You would have had to be on the sidelines to see what the strategy was to question Drew, he may have been told you've got to score to compersate for our d. If your D plays up to expertations this year, you may see a different decision maker in Drew as a result of having confidence in his D. Until then you have to give him the benefit of a doubt..The circumstance in Bufalo last year could cost all kind of things to happen..Most of your other stuff about Drew I can agree with..but the arm strength will make D's respect him everytime..

It's what he does to a opposing team's D mentally that give you a fighting chance in each game. Weather Drew's good or not, opposing D's buy into the hype, and that my friend helps you.

I've made some of these same claims in the past. If it were up to me, Gilbride would be gone now!

1..I do put the number of passing plays largely on Gilbride, but how many times did Drew audible out of a run and into a pass? As well, Drew could have audibled to runs, no? He also didn't seem to have a huge problem w/ it, or at least I didn't notice anything that would suggest that.

2. It's not the number of INTs MD, it's the nature, timing, outcomes, etc. He's gotta have the worst set of INTs of any respected QB last season.

3. Again, I agree, it's obvious, but again as well, sacks in key situations, leading to fumbles that end up being the difference in games, and untimely sacks when we should have been running to begin with are inexcusable when they occur w/ the frequency that they did. I'll post some of the INTs and sack results when I have time. But yes, you can blame Gilbride for some of this, but the two are w/o question "in bed together" on this one. We'll see what this season brings.

4. Did he? Does he know the weaknesses of Drew? Didn't appear that he did. I think you're giving Gilbride tremendous credit. You must remember that he threw the ball like mad w/ Leaf as his QB!!!!

5. Totally agree. But what prevented Drew from audibling some runs? Besides, given that, Drew still threw horrible INTs. He still has to take the heat for it. Besides, I'm not challenging some of these notions, what I am challenging is this faulty notion that we only won 8 games b/c of Drew and how the O carried the D all season when that wasn't the case in over half of our games. All one has to do is look at the points for/against to see that.

6. Yes, this was Drew's first year. But his play over the last 10 was abysmal! Not average, but below. There's no excuse. I remember everyone telling me that we wanted Drew b/c he'll adapt quickly! Pennington did! You tellin' me that Pennington, after putting up a season better than Drew's ever had, that he's so incredibly better? There are others as well. Part of my analysis is a comparison to the play of average QBs in the NFL.

7. #7 makes no sense given our circumstances last season. Besides, I completely disagree w/ your premise. If our D allows only 17 points this season in each game, STs included, then we'll finish 13-3. If Drew can't lead this offense with the talent that we have, to 17 points each and every week, then he isn't the man for the job. He should be able to put up 17 w/ his eyes closed.

8. On 8, any idiot could see that Gilbride simply didn't use Henry. You even agreed up top. So what is it now, Gilbride didn't use Henry, or D's feared Drew so much that they allowed him to pass for 4,000 yards. I find it interesting that you didn't use passing TDs as the milestone. I see a LOT of NFL QBs w/o the talent that Drew had, who put up more, equal to, or nearly equal to the same # of TDs as Drew did, yet, on far fewer yards.

Our passing game within itself was not efficient. We relied on the long-ball/big-play WAY too often. That's why teams started shutting us down. Teams knew that all they had to do was pressure Drew on "long ball situations" and they'd generate some TOs. Sure enough....

You are correct that much of this may in fact be his taking direction, but there's no way that it's all of it. Besides, that only explains the inordinate amount of passing, it doesn't excuse poorly thrown balls and fumbles for opponent scores or set ups.

Lastly, I don't buy into the hype that "what Drew does for you 'mentally' " means more than what he contributes via his performance. It's a nice excuse and grasping at straws, but it simply cannot be considered. At some point, solid performances have to mean more.

[WG]

BTW, I completely disagree that anyone feared Drew over the last half of last season. I didn't see it that way at all. If they feared him, they wouldn't have pressured him so much continually realizing that it was their ticket to generating TOs.

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
BTW, I completely disagree that anyone feared Drew over the last half of last season. I didn't see it that way at all. If they feared him, they wouldn't have pressured him so much continually realizing that it was their ticket to generating TOs.

Wys, stop fighting the oblivious and that's Drew does scare D's, I know for a fact Miami's D is phobic about him..and they have a great D. The only reason teams went all out on him the 2nd half is because your OC, refusal to help him by running more. Kind of like the Rams vs NE sb...Even you have stated in post after raging post that he didn't run Henry more..this would have kept a D earnest. We pressure Drew because of his mobility, that's what teams are going after, because he can't run, and if they can get to him before he throws, there's TO opportunity..but that is for any QB, they're not use to getting hit..even farve fumbles when hit. And don't tell me a D that gives up 17 points a game is gonna win for you..The Last 3 SB teams, won on D..and I know they didn't give up 17 points a game or Balt. and Tampa wouldn't have gotten to the SB. Matter of fact neither would have NE. That's putting a lot of pressure on a O, unless you were the Rams O a couple of years ago, your O was young, new, inexperienced, and didn't have a great year from your OC to help your DC. And your D defintetly didn't instill confidence in your O...They probably felt they had to stay on the field the whole game, because your D wasn't going to stop anyone. Again I ask you to think of the mind set that plays in the O minds..the game is more than stats..Hitting people takes a lot of emotional energy that sometimes and in most instances starts in the mind...Drew mindset, I'm sure is we've got to score a bunch of points, Man Wys, this means that your O couldn't even have a bad game. And ever so often, you know one of the units will have a bad game or 3 out 16. As the year grinds on, expect teams to slow down, injuries, the grind of week in, week out human battle will pay a toll. You still won your last 2 out of 3.. and I know we scored 21 points on you..so your O had to score a lot to overcome that at the end of the season, and they did. Your stats will never be able to downgrade Drew's intangibles, no matter how eloquently you present them..His present on the field is simply a neutralizer,,he could have a bad game for 3 1/2 quarters and then light up a team to finish strong, that won't show up in the stats...as long as he's your QB, you have a chance. I bet Miami would have taken him, if they had the same opportunity as you did. There's a reason a lot of teams would have taken him. Be happy he's playing with you, instead of against you.

[ryven]

Well put MDFINFAN

[WG]

Again MD, much of your posts indicate to me that you aren't as familiar w/ the Bills last season as you think you are, you redneck West Virginian Fin-fan Moose! :D LOL/JK


Originally posted by MDFINFAN
The only reason teams went all out on him the 2nd half is because your OC, refusal to help him by running more.

Well, Henry ran pretty well v. K.C., don't you think?: 24 for 126, 5.3 YPC. Wasn't that enough? Why did we lose that game by chance?

As well, the reason why we had to pass so much in the 2nd Jets game was b/c we were down by 14 in the 2nd. Why?

Hint: 2 Bledsoe INTs on consecutive drives early in the game gave the Jets great field position at midfield leading to 2 TDs. So if we did run more in a game where Henry was averaging nearly 5 YPC, then it had little to do w/ anything else.

BTW, I agree w/ you on Gilbride! So why was he promoted to QB Coach as well? Is TD stupid? Or why? B/c I surely don't know, but it seems to me that the FO was quite happy w/ the amount of times we threw!


Originally posted by MDFINFAN
We pressure Drew because of his mobility, that's what teams are going after, because he can't run, and if they can get to him before he throws, there's TO opportunity..but that is for any QB, they're not use to getting hit..even farve fumbles when hit.

How many other QBs threw 15 interceptions and lost 3 additional fumbles, in addition to cancelling 8 drives that were in or near the red zone as a result?

Is that attributable to all those things too? BTW, I've been asking this question for quite some time and have yet to garner an answer! Which is 0 BTW!!! None even close! How come none of the same circumstances for other, "lesser QBs", didn't "force/cause" them to do the same? Surely not every team had a very good RB, many had none!


Originally posted by MDFINFAN
And don't tell me a D that gives up 17 points a game is gonna win for you..The Last 3 SB teams, won on D..and I know they didn't give up 17 points a game or Balt. and Tampa wouldn't have gotten to the SB. Matter of fact neither would have NE.

Two, (2), teams last year held opponents to under 17 PPG. T.B., believed by many to have been the best D in pro football ever, and Philly who allowed 15.1 PPG on average. If the Bills had allowed fewer than 17 PPG last season, we would have had the 3rd ranked D in the league!

In fact, the Bills held opponents to 17 or fewer points in 6 games last season and in three others they allowed more than 17 only due to offensive TOs. So that's 9 games where the Bills D did more than it's job! The Bills were 4-5 in those games.

BTW, what about that just isn't registering w/ Bills fans? I don't get it. It's black and white, true, and clearly stated on numerous occasions. So why this insistence that the D played like crap all season long...! :huh:

Next argument!!!


Originally posted by MDFINFAN
And your D defintetly didn't instill confidence in your O...They probably felt they had to stay on the field the whole game, because your D wasn't going to stop anyone.

And is that the way you "stay on the field"? By passing as much as you can?

:rolleyes:


Originally posted by MDFINFAN
Again I ask you to think of the mind set that plays in the O minds..the game is more than stats..Man Wys, this means that your O couldn't even have a bad game. And ever so often, you know one of the units will have a bad game or 3 out 16.

Couldn't have a bad game? I have no problem w/ the O "having a bad game." My problem is then w/ the corresponding notion that it was the O who was entirely responsible for whatever success the Bills did have last season!

"The O" put up 20 or fewer points, not considered decent offensive production by anyone, in 7 of 16 games! V. Detroit, all that this "high powered" O could manage to put up at home at the Ralph is 24, and 27 v. Cincy surely wasn't spectacular either. Both were at home in Buffalo, both were below what those teams allowed on average last season.

Since the Bills offense was continually touted as one of the league's best, and since it's no secret that the Lion and Bungal D's sucked, doesn't it then stand to reason that we shouldn't have struggled v. Detroit and really beaten up on Cincy to break a poor streak of offensive performance and to generate some momentum heading into '03!

Lastly, if the game is more than stats, why are Bledsoe's ONLY tangible milestones yardage and attempts and nebulously pertinent records on the basis of those. That statement is simply too funny in light of all the hype over Drew!


Originally posted by MDFINFAN
As the year grinds on, expect teams to slow down, injuries, the grind of week in, week out human battle will pay a toll. You still won your last 2 out of 3.. and I know we scored 21 points on you..so your O had to score a lot to overcome that at the end of the season, and they did.

Teams are now "expected" to have their offensive production plummet nearly in half under those circumstances??

I ain't buyin'! 32.3 PPG to 18.7 goes a little bit beyond that!

Even if it's true that as you suggest teams were focusing on Drew exclusively, which obviously they were not, with the talent he had, if he's anywhere as good as everyone says he is, however good that is, then he should on the basis of pure physical performance should have been able to average more than that and more than 0, 7, 13, 16, 16, 17, and 20 points in 7 games, especially w/ two All-Pro WRs, Henry, an OL w/o injury for the most part, and one that was considered to well above adequate!

Again, the facts simply aren't lining up w/ the arguments.

If you want to come right out and say that a 13 point, or 16 point offensive performance was plenty for any NFL team to win, let alone the Bills, then come right out and say that. I've said the opposite, so strap some on and take a stand here.

Instead, everyone's hiding behind the party-line and the rose-colored media coverage.


Originally posted by MDFINFAN
Your stats will never be able to downgrade Drew's intangibles, no matter how eloquently you present them..His present on the field is simply a neutralizer,,he could have a bad game for 3 1/2 quarters and then light up a team to finish strong, that won't show up in the stats...as long as he's your QB, you have a chance.

I know they won't. That's the problem here! I've got gameboy telling me that his performance v. Pittsburgh where he was 10 of 21 for 102 yards and a TD, which Oh, BTW, came on a drive split w/ Brady, and only 7 of 18 thereafter w/ his contribution on following drives being 3, 0, 34, 29, and 0 yards w/ no further scores was something better than horrendous and well below average. On a YPA avg. of less than 4 BTW.

So I can see how "Drew's intangibles" carry him!

As to "comebacks", if you do an analsysis of his comebacks, both here and in N.E., what you'll find is that in most of those games his team was down to teams that they had no business even playing close let alone being down to, and further more, that usually Drew was instrumental in "them being down" to begin with. Yet, the talk is as if the D and running games fell short and then he "started playing" to save the day! :rolleyes:

Just look at the 2nd Jets game this year; We were down 17-3 b/c he tossed 2 INTs to end our drives and turn them into two Jet TD drives! Why should the D take all the heat for this? Or even most of it? Most teams if their QB sets up opponents continually at the 50 will see some TDs go against them.

Furthermore, it's Drew's job to lead his team to cross the goal line. It becomes a little bit difficult to do that when you give the ball to your opponents. I sure hope we can agree on that at least. I'll have considered it some good progress. :)

But again, my contention is that when the "intangibles" begin to overtake the tangibles and on-field performance, then perhaps it's time to think things through! Clearly erroneous presuppositions and party-line stigmas are propping up Drew significantly more than his own individual performances are.


Originally posted by MDFINFAN
I bet Miami would have taken him, if they had the same opportunity as you did. There's a reason a lot of teams would have taken him. Be happy he's playing with you, instead of against you.

He is playing against us in many games! That's my point!!!

Since when does 2, 3, or even 4 TOs help a team???

When? Particularly when NOT accompanied by some significant number of TDs??

When?

As well, what's problematic to me about that, and certainly not inconsistent w/ his past track record, is that that tends to happen in games v. the types of teams that you find in the playoffs and in the playoffs themselves.

[MDFINFAN]

Originally posted by Wys Guy

Sorry I mistakenly hit the submit before I finish, this is the finished arguments Wys



Again MD, much of your posts indicate to me that you aren't as familiar w/ the Bills last season as you think you are, you redneck West Virginian Fin-fan Moose! :D LOL/JK
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----------Of course I'm not as familar with all of the bills games as you, I'm a Phins fan, I don't have time to waste.:D But I kept up with most of your games because we play you, so I always wanted to know what you were doing. neknect WV FF Moose..LOL..that's pretty good coming from a Rod-chester skunk :gag:..and besides I'm from Ft. Laud. FL.
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Well, Henry ran pretty well v. K.C., don't you think?: 24 for 126, 5.3 YPC. Wasn't that enough? Why did we lose that game by chance?
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--------One game out of the last 7, wild, U site this one game. I think that speaks for itself.
Last 7 games: 16-17 L, 13-31 L, 38-21 W, 17-27 L, 20-13 W, 0-10 L, 27-9 W, only one game you held an opponent under 10 points.
The bengals, real stout D there bud.
Back to the KC game:
------------ CP/AT YDS TD INT
D. Bledsoe 24/36 225 1 1 not bad.

You loss this game because your D in the 4th quarter toward the end of the game allowed KC to march 78 yards, chewing up 5 min. 23 seconds on 9 plays and letting KC score a TD. You were wining up until then..Your so called 2nd half improved D plays lights out, you're out of there with a win.
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As well, the reason why we had to pass so much in the 2nd Jets game was b/c we were down by 14 in the 2nd. Why?
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--------------Because your D sucked, can't hold anybody from scoring TD's, that's why.

-------------CP/AT YDS TD INT
D. Bledsoe 21/33 181 0 2 Not a good game by his standards

1ST QUARTER
FG Mike Hollis 43 Yd, 8:26. Drive: 13 plays, 55 yards in 6:34.
FG John Hall 23 Yd, 2:54. Drive: 10 plays, 58 yards in 5:32.
You didn't have the ball much: Look at the time your D spend not stopping your opponent. On your 1st drive..you score 3 points, on your 2nd drive, your intercepted at the 50..Your D, as always, can hold..TD Jets, btw, the jets were on a hot streak by this time of last year. Okay, next possession basically the same..2 bad series, but your D can't hold..this has happen to Tampa, Miami, Baltimore, Oakland, NY Giants, etc, difference..their D's held and assorb the blow. Next posession, mixture of incomplete passes and penalties.
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Hint: 2 Bledsoe INTs on consecutive drives early in the game gave the Jets great field position at midfield leading to 2 TDs. So if we did run more in a game where Henry was averaging nearly 5 YPC, then it had little to do w/ anything else.
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-----------With a good D you can overcome these kinds of things, but after that 1st quarter, Drew threw no more INT's. Plus you came out throwing, your game plan obviously was a passing one. Again your OC...you were force to throw, because your D cave in both times on the TO's, from atleast 50 yards out, it wasn't like they only had to go..5-10 yards as you make it seem.
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BTW, I agree w/ you on Gilbride! So why was he promoted to QB Coach as well? Is TD stupid? Or why? B/c I surely don't know, but it seems to me that the FO was quite happy w/ the amount of times we threw!
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I'm glad we agree on something. :rofl:
Now you're getting with the picture


How many other QBs threw 15 interceptions and lost 3 additional fumbles, in addition to cancelling 8 drives that were in or near the red zone as a result?
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--------Lets see Lucas, 2nd game Lucas in combo w/Jay
David Carr, Lets look at this more clearly...your whole year out of over 600+ passes, Drew had 15 Int's, your team also had 8 fumbes...Lets see how many TO's did your D create, since they spend so much time on the field allowing teams to have long drives on them...10 ints, 9 fumble recoveries, a real help- heh.
Okay your O or team turned the ball over 31 times, lets see, St. Louis 45 x's, Minn 41 x's, Cincy 35 x's, Washinton 40 x's, Arizona 35 x's, Carolina 40x, Chicago 35x, Dallas 35x, Indy 32x, Balt 32x,
Pitts 36x, now top teams, but I've got to add this: Jax-- 15x, did it help them? Tampa 22x's but they were a +17 in TO difference..I wonder who got them that many. GB 28x, only 3 less than you, Philly 24x, and so on....your O wasn't the worst at this.
But your D at toward the bottom in getting TO's, I take that back, they were on the bottom at only 19..Stuff said on that subject.
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Is that attributable to all those things too? BTW, I've been asking this question for quite some time and have yet to garner an answer! Which is 0 BTW!!! None even close! How come none of the same circumstances for other, "lesser QBs", didn't "force/cause" them to do the same? Surely not every team had a very good RB, many had none!
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-----------But all those teams that didn't have a running back, had a D. The Pats came out firing the ball and died by it, like you. The skins lit the night and day skys with pigskins and died too. Their D was 5th Best in the league which helps a little and yet their record was worst than yours, and they had proven Stephen Davis as RB, I guess Spruier was following Gilbrite's lead. Cleveland, Pittsburg, Cincy, Indy, Minn., and Seattle, all pass and crashed.
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Two, (2), teams last year held opponents to under 17 PPG. T.B., believed by many to have been the best D in pro football ever, and Philly who allowed 15.1 PPG on average. If the Bills had allowed fewer than 17 PPG last season, we would have had the 3rd ranked D in the league!
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-------No the Giants also for the year, but we're only talking about the last famous 7 games you keep refering to. A lot more teams could be added to that list if we're only talking the last 7 games.
So actually, and I stopped checking, you'd be 10th.
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In fact, the Bills held opponents to 17 or fewer points in 6 games last season and in three others they allowed more than 17 only due to offensive TOs. So that's 9 games where the Bills D did more than it's job! The Bills were 4-5 in those games.

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--------No, Due to the fact the D couldn't stop a team from scoring a TD off a TO, all teams go through this, this is normal, A good D will over come this. They won't allow a team to score a TD from 50 yards out on a TO. Your D last year, oh yes, they would and did.
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BTW, what about that just isn't registering w/ Bills fans? I don't get it. It's black and white, true, and clearly stated on numerous occasions. So why this insistence that the D played like crap all season long...! :huh:

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--------Basically because they did, they certainly didn't play like a great D.
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Next argument!!!

And is that the way you "stay on the field"? By passing as much as you can?

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--------In Gilbrites Offense, apparently you do, This one's mute, you and I agree on the game calling.
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Couldn't have a bad game? I have no problem w/ the O "having a bad game." My problem is then w/ the corresponding notion that it was the O who was entirely responsible for whatever success the Bills did have last season!

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Okay, lets look at your wins:
45-39 W, 33-27 W, 31-24 W, 23-10 W, 24-17 W, 38-21 W, 20-13 W, 27-9 W, Hummm, only 3 of the 8 your O didn't have to score more than 17 to win, only 1 could they have won, by scoring 10. I say no rest for the weary Offense.
While we're at it, lets look at your losses:
31-37 L, 23-28 L, 31-49 L, 7-38 L, 16-17 L, 13-31 L, 17-27 L, 0-10 L, Man look at how many points your O scored in those games and you still lost...and you're definding your D huh..Okay
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"The O" put up 20 or fewer points, not considered decent offensive production by anyone, in 7 of 16 games! V. Detroit, all that this "high powered" O could manage to put up at home at the Ralph is 24, and 27 v. Cincy surely wasn't spectacular either. Both were at home in Buffalo, both were below what those teams allowed on average last season.

Since the Bills offense was continually touted as one of the league's best, and since it's no secret that the Lion and Bungal D's sucked, doesn't it then stand to reason that we shouldn't have struggled v. Detroit and really beaten up on Cincy to break a poor streak of offensive performance and to generate some momentum heading into '03!
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---This includes your D sucking too...Who did your D beat up to break a poor streak of performances? You can show me by the losses scores, that's a hell of a lot of point put up in losses.
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Lastly, if the game is more than stats, why are Bledsoe's ONLY tangible milestones yardage and attempts and nebulously pertinent records on the basis of those. That statement is simply too funny in light of all the hype over Drew!
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-----And the teams who loss to Drew from last year aren't laughing very loudly, also the team's D that took a shelling, base on points who beat you can't be laughing very loudly either.
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Teams are now "expected" to have their offensive production plummet nearly in half under those circumstances??

I ain't buyin'! 32.3 PPG to 18.7 goes a little bit beyond that!

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---I didn't say expected, I said the grind of the season sometimes takes in toll, that's all. I thought your last statement was last, but not least....give me a chance to answer some of these before you go on. LOL
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Even if it's true that as you suggest teams were focusing on Drew exclusively, which obviously they were not, with the talent he had, if he's anywhere as good as everyone says he is, however good that is, then he should on the basis of pure physical performance should have been able to average more than that and more than 0, 7, 13, 16, 16, 17, and 20 points in 7 games, especially w/ two All-Pro WRs, Henry, an OL w/o injury for the most part, and one that was considered to well above adequate!
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---Not sure where you got those numbers, they're not the ones in your scores, your scores are much higher, even in your losses
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Again, the facts simply aren't lining up w/ the arguments.

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--------No your arguments aren't lining up with the FACTS
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If you want to come right out and say that a 13 point, or 16 point offensive performance was plenty for any NFL team to win, let alone the Bills, then come right out and say that. I've said the opposite, so strap some on and take a stand here.

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---When you have a good D it is.
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Instead, everyone's hiding behind the party-line and the rose-colored media coverage.



I know they won't. That's the problem here! I've got gameboy telling me that his performance v. Pittsburgh where he was 10 of 21 for 102 yards and a TD, which Oh, BTW, came on a drive split w/ Brady, and only 7 of 18 thereafter w/ his contribution on following drives being 3, 0, 34, 29, and 0 yards w/ no further scores was something better than horrendous and well below average. On a YPA avg. of less than 4 BTW.

So I can see how "Drew's intangibles" carry him!

As to "comebacks", if you do an analsysis of his comebacks, both here and in N.E., what you'll find is that in most of those games his team was down to teams that they had no business even playing close let alone being down to, and further more, that usually Drew was instrumental in "them being down" to begin with. Yet, the talk is as if the D and running games fell short and then he "started playing" to save the day! :rolleyes:

Just look at the 2nd Jets game this year; We were down 17-3 b/c he tossed 2 INTs to end our drives and turn them into two Jet TD drives! Why should the D take all the heat for this? Or even most of it? Most teams if their QB sets up opponents continually at the 50 will see some TDs go against them.

Furthermore, it's Drew's job to lead his team to cross the goal line. It becomes a little bit difficult to do that when you give the ball to your opponents. I sure hope we can agree on that at least. I'll have considered it some good progress. :)

But again, my contention is that when the "intangibles" begin to overtake the tangibles and on-field performance, then perhaps it's time to think things through! Clearly erroneous presuppositions and party-line stigmas are propping up Drew significantly more than his own individual performances are.



He is playing against us in many games! That's my point!!!

Since when does 2, 3, or even 4 TOs help a team???

When? Particularly when NOT accompanied by some significant number of TDs??

When?

As well, what's problematic to me about that, and certainly not inconsistent w/ his past track record, is that that tends to happen in games v. the types of teams that you find in the playoffs and in the playoffs themselves. :D

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----With the rest of this thread I ask you to go back and look at the play by play, and asked yourself, would a real good defense give up that many points, and let opposing O's stay on the field, for the length of time they did. and our O still get that many points in a losing effort. The stats are not exactly as you protrait them, you're twisting just enough to get your point across, but now I know the real deal and will be able to go, blow for blow.
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