Balls and goats

[TacklingDummy]

Tyrod: you suck
Sammy: 2 firsts and a 4th for what?
Rex: wish I made millions for being douche.

[The Natrix]

Goat: Sammy. Continues to be so scared to take a shot.

[YardRat]

Goats---Tyrod for sure, he really isn't much better than EJ. Roman for some real questionable play-calling.

Balls---defense. They deserve props, played all night long.

[feldspar]

Are you kidding so far?

McKelvin...holy ****

[Luisito23]

Taylor is ass.

[Scumbag College]

Balls:

Lawson- solid.
Hughes had a big game.
Dareus was solid..
Hogan was open all night, Tyrod couldn't get him the ball.

Goats:

McLovin. 'Nuff said.
Tyrod- see Hogan. Still he's our only hope.
Roman- Too many third and shorts not converted.
Sammy- disappeared again in a big game.
Graham- I am a big Graham fan but just tackle the guy before the half and it's a FG instead of a TD.
Clay- I keep forgetting he's here.

[coastal]

Taylor is dumber than sh1t.

Mario Williams is a butt ****ing quitter.

Rex is a **** bag.

Russ Brandon is a bigger **** bag.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Taylor is dumber than sh1t.

Mario Williams is a butt ****ing quitter.

Rex is a **** bag.

Russ Brandon is a bigger **** bag.

i will address all four of your points as concisely as you made them.

point number 1) perhaps

point number 2) just stop

point number 3) yup

point number 4) f*** yea

[feldspar]

The refs get a goat.

Made me sick to hear Tirico and Gruden go on and on about the "inadvertent whistle," but they still gave them the pass from where he caught it (not sure if I've seen that before), and also gave them another 15 yards tacked on for whatever else on that play.

The Bills got the raw end of the refs starting early, when they called a bogus holding call on Corey Graham which took back the Rambo INT on the Pats first possession. That probably ended up being at least a six point swing after the Pats ended up scoring a field goal on that drive.

The roughing the kicker non-call was absurd as well.

[Scumbag College]

The refs get a goat.

Made me sick to hear Tirico and Gruden go on and on about the "inadvertent whistle," but they still gave them the pass from where he caught it (not sure if I've seen that before), and also gave them another 15 yards tacked on for whatever else on that play.

The Bills got the raw end of the refs starting early, when they called a bogus holding call on Corey Graham which took back the Rambo INT on the Pats first possession. That probably ended up being at least a six point swing after the Pats ended up scoring a field goal on that drive.

The roughing the kicker non-call was absurd as well.

I really wanted to see a replay at the end of the third quarter where it looked like Shady had his head damn near ripped off with a facemask, a flag was thrown, and they picked it up. Never saw a replay, it was never talked about again.

[tomz]

Balls:

Lawson- solid.
Hughes had a big game.
Dareus was solid..
Hogan was open all night, Tyrod couldn't get him the ball. while Hogan was indeed open etc, his classic Hogan step-back from first down yardage was a major screw up in the 4th quarter. He should know that we cannot execute a 1 yard dive play for the first down!

Goats:

McLovin. 'Nuff said.
Tyrod- see Hogan. Still he's our only hope.
Roman- Too many third and shorts not converted.
Sammy- disappeared again in a big game.
Graham- I am a big Graham fan but just tackle the guy before the half and it's a FG instead of a TD.
Clay- I keep forgetting he's here.

Sammy and Clay I put down to Taylor and maybe scheme/play calling.

[TacklingDummy]

No one can complain about the Refs. If it wasn't for them the Bills would have lost by 30.

[WagonCircler]

This is a dumb football team, assembled by a hack GM.

Once again, the Bills played checkers. The other team played chess.

[OpIv37]

Balls: Hogan and Hughes

Goats: McKelvin, Taylor, Watkins, Roman, Rex

[Thurmal]

GOATS: Roman (never took any chances all game). Refs (typical NE BUFF game).

BALLS: Ryan and the defense. McCoy. Hughes. Defensive backfield (were absolutely awesome).

[mysticsoto]

This is a dumb football team, assembled by a hack GM.

Once again, the Bills played checkers. The other team played chess.

I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. The Bills defense had Brady confused most of the game. The Patriots have been blowing out opponents left and right and with us, they barely squeaked by! I thought the ref'ing was terrible, but that's become the norm with us. T-rod didn't have the best day, but I'm not ready to say EJ would have been better. Not sure what's up with Sammy. Was he covered all the time or did T-rod just not throw to him?

Here are my balls & goats:

Balls:

Bills D - Had a great battle plan. Of course, I'm sure it helped that they had a week and a half to prepare for this game! Still. Good execution. Some missed tackles cost us, but overall, great play. I love how much Brady got hit yesterday. He must be black & blue in many places today!!!
Shady - Ran well. At times the calls became too predictable on the runs though but that's not his fault.
Hogan - Was impressive today, probably b'cse everyone was making sure Sammy didn't get the ball.

Goats:

McFumbles - way to make us remember what you're known for...I had actually forgotten until he reminded me twice.
Sammy - I thought he might be sick at 1st, but that didn't seem to be the case.
Rowan - Quite a few of the run calls were just so predictable. The Pats had everyone up @the line b'cse they knew a run was coming also. Way to surprise them by running straight at the crowd.

Honorable mention - I was disappointed Karlos Williams didn't score a TD. I wanted to see him get the record...

[Historian]

Balls:

Shady
Hogan

Goats:

Carpenter
McKelvin
Taylor

[Saratoga Slim]

Defense played absolutely well enough to win. At Foxborough? C'mon. That was a great game plan and well executed. As bad as our offense looked most of the night, it was tight all the way and finished with the ball in our hands and two minutes left down one score. That's all you can ask for from a D on the road at the best team in the league.

The Bills & Pats defenses basically played straight up. Both kickers missed a field goal, and each team had one turnover. The difference was Brady just made a few more plays than Tyrod (who played like the average/slightly below average starter that he is).

[trapezeus]

Goat: duke Williams. Comes in for Rambo. Way out of position on the all out blitz to let them score 17. He's been a weak link all year and not adequate depth. Should not be on team next year.

[Ingtar33]

Balls:
Hogan - 7/11 always open
Shady - came to play, he was electric
Darby - completely erased Gronk.

GOATS:
Rambo - he was made Brady's b**** time and time again
Refs - HORRIBLE, worst officiated game i've seen in a while, i could write a book on the crap job they did in this game
Watkins - Elite WRs get open, sticking your hand up when you're double covered and giving up on your routes doesn't count as being open, and generally it's bad form if you just give up on your route and the ball is in your QB's hand. This is why you were barely used last night
T-Mobile - I know BB dedicated his plan to taking Watkins out of the game, but there were a lot of plays T-Mobile left on the field. On the bright side i've seen young QBs play a lot worse against BB, so it's not like this is critical, but our QB play really dragged the offense down. Woods and Hogan should have had a monster day with the defense BB was playing. Your QB has to get the ball into their hands.
Mario Williams - dude gave up. I get how he doesn't want to play OLB (I don't want him to either), but that first patriot TD was on him. Glad Ray Lewis called him out after the game. I was ready to throw the remote through the TV when i saw it live, cause it was clear he just ignored the RB and rushed Brady when he was supposed to get the RB. I don't like using MW to cover either, i probably like it as little as MW does, but he's gotta man up and do his job, not freelance. Looked like he refused to play the rest of the way after that too. don't know if he was benched, was injured or was sulking, but it looked like he was sulking.

[jamze132]

The refs get a goat.

Made me sick to hear Tirico and Gruden go on and on about the "inadvertent whistle," but they still gave them the pass from where he caught it (not sure if I've seen that before), and also gave them another 15 yards tacked on for whatever else on that play.

The Bills got the raw end of the refs starting early, when they called a bogus holding call on Corey Graham which took back the Rambo INT on the Pats first possession. That probably ended up being at least a six point swing after the Pats ended up scoring a field goal on that drive.

The roughing the kicker non-call was absurd as well.
Actually Graham has a fist full of jersey and it should have been a PI. The issue I have is why in the **** was he grabbing his jersey??? If you weren't burnt you wouldn't need to grab the ****ing guy.

[jamze132]

Goats:

McKelvin...again Come on man!
Graham - (1)Stupid grabbing of the jersey on the nullified INT. (2)Then this guy misses a wide open receiver that walked into the endzone.
Duke Williams - Amendola made him look like a ****
Greg Roman - (1)sweep on a 3rd and 1 when we're supposed to be a smashmouth football team? (2)run up the ****ing middle and stop trying to be cute. (3)need to get Taylor out of the pocket MUCH more by design. Taylor's best assets are in ability to throw on the run or use his legs. Play to your strengths!!!

[feldspar]

Actually Graham has a fist full of jersey and it should have been a PI. The issue I have is why in the **** was he grabbing his jersey??? If you weren't burnt you wouldn't need to grab the ****ing guy.

Well, somebody already said that they showed the play again from a different angle later in the game.

Whatever Graham did did not impede Gronk's progress at all. Calling anything based on a guy grabbing another guy's jersey is BS in my opinion. You see it all the time...huge calls based on some tricky-tack brief grab of the jersey that did nothing to affect anything.

PI as opposed to holding wouldn't have made any difference really, even if there weren't offsetting penalties. It was a short route.

I'll have to get another look at it if they showed it later in the game. But I don't think I'm quite ready to watch this one again quite yet...very frustrating.

[Victor7]

Balls
Rex the Defensive Coordinator. Phenomenal game plan. Kept the high powered Pats in check for most of the game despite the ineptitude of the offense. Got pressure and stopped the run game despite having both Mario and Marcel miss a lot of time. Lets hope this was the game they finally "clicked" and it will be like this for the remainder of the season.
Shady. Game changer. If only we had more talent at QB and teams didn't focus on him he'd be going over 120 every week.




Goats.
Rex the manager. Horrendous managing again. Pathetic 2 minute offenses on both halves, pathetic use of time outs, pathetic penalties and pathetic that after 10 games they are still having communication issues. This is 2015 you seriously cant get someone to fix a ****ing head set?
Greg Roman. The shine is wearing off on this cat. Horrendous game plan. Does Greg know he's allowed to run more than just 2 plays? Shotgun draw and shotgun sweep. That's all he knows. Nothing more. No use of Sammy or Clay either. Just a miserable game plan from our OC
Tyrod Taylor. Worst game of the season. Had he been above average we win the game. He was EJ Manuelesque inaccurate. Missed a td throw to Hogan and a couple more long ones to Sammy. Under threw, overthrew, led too much, threw behind, never got past his 1st read. Just terrible. And despite that he's our best shot. If he's not out there next week its over.
Leodis McStupid. Done with him. Just cut him. He's too stupid to be on the team. His good plays will never outweigh the bad ones. Unreal.
Duke Williams. Another guy that has no business being on the field. A disgrace of a "player"
Dan Carpenter. Nice miss you ****. 10 point swing right there.
Refs. What else is there to say? I wrote before the game that Steratore was a mess. Boy was I wrong. He was an unmitigated disaster. These refs get worst by the week. Its amazing in a very very bad way


Side note.
Win next week or its over. Its that simple

[DraftBoy]

. T-rod didn't have the best day, but I'm not ready to say EJ would have been better. Not sure what's up with Sammy. Was he covered all the time or did T-rod just not throw to him?

This actually pretty simple to explain and a bunch did last night on social media during the game. also I think Ingtar and a few others mentioned it when Watkins first commented about his lack of targets. Tyrod is running a single read option on nearly every pass. His read is to one side and if its not there he is supposed to go to his check down or get out of the pocket and see if the defense will breakdown.

I only watched the first half because I had to get up early for work but on the majority of passing plays the read for Taylor was not to Watkins side. It was like they were using him as a decoy. I mention that specifically because of the big Hogan catch near the end of the first half. Both Pats DB's break on Watkins in route leaving Hogan wide open for 30+ yards. I'm not sure that was Roman's design but I don't think the lack of Watkins targets is specifically on Tyrod. I think that is the way the offense for the most part is being schemed right now. It's a half-field/one-read offense from a passing perspective which can be really limiting once defenses figure out what to look for. It's a lot of what Roman did with Kap in San Francisco as well.

[DraftBoy]

Only watched the first half so my balls and goats are based on that:

Balls:
Bills Defensive Scheme - Brady and the OL were confused all night and constantly having to adjust and readjust protection.
McCoy - Some nice tough runs against loaded boxes. He's not a power guy but if he's getting 3-4 ypc against an 8 man box on an inside run then I'll take that.
Woods/Hogan - Ran better routes and found soft spots against a good Pats D. Also good effort blocking when asked.
Glenn - I thought he did extremely well to limit Chandler Jones. Only time he got beat was one time when Tyrod ducked under Jones and scrambled away

Goats:
Gilmore - You can't miss that tackle and then get beat on back to back plays at the end of the first half, that's just bad form.
Henderson - Stupid penalty for illegal formation
Graham - No excuse for letting White get free for the TD. You have to at least get him out of bounds there.
Felton - If we're going to pay a guy to block, he should probably at least block somebody. 2x in the first half he's left standing at the end of the OL looking at air.
Moore - If you're going to take the ball out of the end zone on a kickoff, you don't hesitate, grab the ball and go.

[jamze132]

Only watched the first half so my balls and goats are based on that:

Balls:
Bills Defensive Scheme - Brady and the OL were confused all night and constantly having to adjust and readjust protection.
McCoy - Some nice tough runs against loaded boxes. He's not a power guy but if he's getting 3-4 ypc against an 8 man box on an inside run then I'll take that.
Woods/Hogan - Ran better routes and found soft spots against a good Pats D. Also good effort blocking when asked.
Glenn - I thought he did extremely well to limit Chandler Jones. Only time he got beat was one time when Tyrod ducked under Jones and scrambled away

Goats:
Gilmore - You can't miss that tackle and then get beat on back to back plays at the end of the first half, that's just bad form.
Henderson - Stupid penalty for illegal formation
Graham - No excuse for letting White get free for the TD. You have to at least get him out of bounds there.
Felton - If we're going to pay a guy to block, he should probably at least block somebody. 2x in the first half he's left standing at the end of the OL looking at air.
Moore - If you're going to take the ball out of the end zone on a kickoff, you don't hesitate, grab the ball and go.
Nothing about Amendola making Duke Williams looks like a Pop Warner backup?

[BOBM253]

my goat is for Roman (nee Hackett) for calling all of those runs on first down. so predictable, we're just basically wasting a down every series. and whats the deal with Tyrod running right along side him when handing the ball off? the play seems so slow and easy to defend. I remember hackett doing the same thing. don't get it....

[Mr. Pink]

No goat mention for Mario?

He's the one that helped allow the TD at the end of the first half by not jamming on the RB. Of course the missed tackle at the 10 also helped that TD, but if Mario even just chips on him that play never even happens.

[stuckincincy]

Balls:

Defensive effort - at least until they got gassed. IMO, they need another true DT in the rotation - even if KW was healthy.

Goats:

Coaching.

I was constantly yelling at the tv about not getting to the LOS quickly (and they're far from unique there). NE taught them a lesson there and the waning moments of the game.

Taylor is what he is. Calling curl patterns more would help him. Too much of the two-back set. Yes - keep NE guessing and free up McCoy - I get that. But I'd rather have an extra wr pop off the line and look back to the LOS given that Taylor is essentially in a scramble on (seemingly) most snaps. My 2 cents here...

That db blitz at the end of the half that resulted in a NE td...3rd and 10 from the 20 with 19 seconds left. I guess the official line is "missed assignment." Bunk. That was a lousy defensive play call at that time and distance.

[gebobs]

The roughing the kicker non-call was absurd as well.
Non-call it may have been. Rewinding on the iPad was problematic last night and they didn't show a replay. It appeared to me, out of the corner of my eye, that it might have been running into the kicker. You practically have to kill the guy to get the personal foul roughing. Still, if the refs though the guy was blocked in, it gets their pass. Again, haven't seen the play since so i won't render judgment.

[stuckincincy]

Non-call it may have been. Rewinding on the iPad was problematic last night and they didn't show a replay. It appeared to me, out of the corner of my eye, that it might have been running into the kicker. You practically have to kill the guy to get the personal foul roughing. Still, if the refs though the guy was blocked in, it gets their pass. Again, haven't seen the play since so i won't render judgment.


It was, as they say, a good "non-call." NE player hit the ground in front of the punter and rolled up on the punter's foot after the kick was cleanly launched. Calling it would have been one of those so-called "ticky-tack' pens the pundits talk about.

[gebobs]

Nothing about Amendola making Duke Williams looks like a Pop Warner backup?

Yeah...let's not bemoan Rambo's coverage skills anymore.

[DraftBoy]

No goat mention for Mario?

He's the one that helped allow the TD at the end of the first half by not jamming on the RB. Of course the missed tackle at the 10 also helped that TD, but if Mario even just chips on him that play never even happens.

Rewatching that play, nothing about it looked like the RB was Mario's responsibility given the long arching rush he took. Looked like the safety just didn't get down into the area fast enough or make the tackle, so no. There were some times were he appeared to only battle until he got engaged and then just stopped but other times that he either flushed Brady or cause some pocket issues for him. Overall I didn't think he had a bad or great first half.

- - - Updated - - -


Nothing about Amendola making Duke Williams looks like a Pop Warner backup?


I honestly don't recall the play specifically, but given Duke Williams was involved I'm sure it was bad.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Whatever Graham did did not impede Gronk's progress at all. Calling anything based on a guy grabbing another guy's jersey is BS in my opinion. You see it all the time...huge calls based on some tricky-tack brief grab of the jersey that did nothing to affect anything

If I was commissioner I would make defensive holding a 10 yard, no automatic first penalty. There's no reason why a ticky tack hold should convert a 3rd and 15 as I've seen many times.

[DraftBoy]

Balls:

Defensive effort - at least until they got gassed. IMO, they need another true DT in the rotation - even if KW was healthy.

Goats:

Coaching.

I was constantly yelling at the tv about not getting to the LOS quickly (and they're far from unique there). NE taught them a lesson there and the waning moments of the game.

Taylor is what he is. Calling curl patterns more would help him. Too much of the two-back set. Yes - keep NE guessing and free up McCoy - I get that. But I'd rather have an extra wr pop off the line and look back to the LOS given that Taylor is essentially in a scramble on (seemingly) most snaps. My 2 cents here...

That db blitz at the end of the half that resulted in a NE td...3rd and 10 from the 20 with 19 seconds left. I guess the official line is "missed assignment." Bunk. That was a lousy defensive play call at that time and distance.

What extra WR do we have to line up? Once Easley goes out its only Denarius Moore on the depth chart at WR left. We're carrying five WR's by position but only three that actually play on offense.

[DraftBoy]

If I was commissioner I would make defensive holding a 10 yard, no automatic first penalty. There's no reason why a ticky tack hold should convert a 3rd and 15 as I've seen many times.


Wouldn't the basically give any DB or LB who gets beat on 3rd and 10+ the ability to hold the WR/RB/TE as he goes past with a limited punishment? Not against it, but I also don't think grabbing a fist full of jersey and pulling on it is really ticky tack either.

If I was commissioner though I'd certainly change the grounding rules to stop that bull**** Brady was doing last night. Not a WR/TE/RB within a 3 yard radius? Automatic flag and make it reviewable because we have the technology to impose a six yard diameter circle around the ball on video.

Don't care about in the pocket or out either, if you're not going to throw it out of bounds past the LOS, then you're going to get flagged. Pissed me off to watch that last night.

[gebobs]

I honestly don't recall the play specifically, but given Duke Williams was involved I'm sure it was bad.
I believe that was the play on 3rd and 7 that Amendola took to the 6yl setting up their second TD. Rambo had gone off, Williams in. Amendola goes out and does a short slant away from Williams who is doing god knows what. He backtracks after the catch and Amendola walks around him for 41 yards.

[DraftBoy]

I believe that was the play on 3rd and 7 that Amendola took to the 6yl setting up their second TD. Rambo had gone off, Williams in. Amendola goes out and does a short slant away from Williams who is doing god knows what. He backtracks after the catch and Amendola walks around him for 41 yards.

Didn't see it, Pats only scored one TD in the first half. I didn't stay up for the second half.

[gebobs]

I didn't stay up for the second half.

I should have done the same after watching the way the half ended.

[DraftBoy]

I should have done the same after watching the way the half ended.

Gotta get up earlier for work now, so it was a decision between sleep and being ok at work today or being sleep deprived and pissed off at myself. I choose option 1 and feel good about it.

[Ingtar33]

Not sure what's up with Sammy. Was he covered all the time or did T-rod just not throw to him?

I wrote this when i was still ticked off


Watkins - Elite WRs get open, sticking your hand up when you're double covered and giving up on your routes doesn't count as being open, and generally it's bad form if you just give up on your route and the ball is in your QB's hand. This is why you were barely used last night

To expand on that point,

Basically BB dedicated last night to taking away Watkins. He had him double covered all night with a cornerback and safety. He was doing basically the same thing with Clay, only it was a Linebacker and the other safety, or a DE or a CB, depending on defense. Because BB had both DE's playing 2gap, and/or spying on Taylor he was covering everything except for all the other WRs and Shady, who he inexplicably did NOT gameplan for. Woods, Shady and Hogan should have had a MONSTER night (shady got his, heck if he caught that deep pass he would have had an insane night, Hogan was a couple of missed passes away from his, so it's not like they didn't get anything the pats were giving them, its just the pats were giving them a LOT more then we took). Roman didn't adjust, and actually dialed back the plays to Shady as the game went on (no clue why), Tyrod looked confused when his primary WR was covered (usually watkins or clay), it wasn't till later he started to find Woods and Hogan, that again rolls back to Roman not adjusting and helping out the QB.

Watkins didn't help himself by dogging it all night, man was that some lazy play. I'm glad MNF didn't play any more iso cams of watkins, from what i saw on the "other" plays he was dogging it and lazily waving his hand as if expecting to be thrown to while blanketed by the guy he isn't bothering to get open against, to say nothing for the safety over top. The patriots basically were begging TT to kill them with 10 yard slants, hooks and outs to Hogan and Woods, and we didn't even try to do it.

[YardRat]

Taylor is dumber than sh1t.

Mario Williams is a butt ****ing quitter.

Rex is a **** bag.

Russ Brandon is a bigger **** bag.

Points off for not including **** in all four comments.

[YardRat]

Wouldn't the basically give any DB or LB who gets beat on 3rd and 10+ the ability to hold the WR/RB/TE as he goes past with a limited punishment? Not against it, but I also don't think grabbing a fist full of jersey and pulling on it is really ticky tack either.

If I was commissioner though I'd certainly change the grounding rules to stop that bull**** Brady was doing last night. Not a WR/TE/RB within a 3 yard radius? Automatic flag and make it reviewable because we have the technology to impose a six yard diameter circle around the ball on video.

Don't care about in the pocket or out either, if you're not going to throw it out of bounds past the LOS, then you're going to get flagged. Pissed me off to watch that last night.

I thanked this post, but I wouldn't necessarily consider a penalty that coverts a 3rd and 11 (for example) to a 3rd and 1 'limited'. Penalty yardage is one thing, but under no circumstances should a penalty automatically result in a first down if the yardage isn't sufficient to obtain it. If they want to call defensive holding worth a five-yard walk-off, than that's what it is...five yards, spot the ball, and refigure the down and distance.

[Oaf]

Duke Williams … I hate the player. Would be all for cutting him and signing a less athletic vet that actually had football instincts.

Seriously, I'd take Jim Leonard tomorrow over the scrub.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Wouldn't the basically give any DB or LB who gets beat on 3rd and 10+ the ability to hold the WR/RB/TE as he goes past with a limited punishment? Not against it, but I also don't think grabbing a fist full of jersey and pulling on it is really ticky tack either.

No, and why would it? It's like saying the offside rule gives any DL the ability to just run across the line before the snap with a limited punishment. 10 yards and a free play isn't punishment enough for you?

The issue with defensive holding is that it can happen almost anywhere on the field. With DPI, there are all manner of restrictions on it: No DPI behind the LOS, no DPI if the ball is uncatchable, no DPI if the pass is tipped in the air. Even though that doesn't work all the time, the intention at least is that it's a harsher penalty because you know it meaningfully impacted the play. Defensive holding can be called on the tiniest hand fight on a route the QB doesn't even look for. Automatic first is too much for a penalty that doesn't directly affect the outcome of the play IMO

[DraftBoy]

No, and why would it? It's like saying the offside rule gives any DL the ability to just run across the line before the snap with a limited punishment. 10 yards and a free play isn't punishment enough for you?

The issue with defensive holding is that it can happen almost anywhere on the field. With DPI, there are all manner of restrictions on it: No DPI behind the LOS, no DPI if the ball is uncatchable, no DPI if the pass is tipped in the air. Even though that doesn't work all the time, the intention at least is that it's a harsher penalty because you know it meaningfully impacted the play. Defensive holding can be called on the tiniest hand fight on a route the QB doesn't even look for. Automatic first is too much for a penalty that doesn't directly affect the outcome of the play IMO

Well the first issue is that they blow the play dead if you have an unimpeded path to the QB/RB so that's one of the reasons why they don't. Also there is nothing to gain by being offside for the defense. On a holding situation as I described you save your team yards and potentially keep points off the board. Being in an offside position doesn't offer either of those benefits to a defense.

That's not an issue, imo. If you can't cover the guy, then you can't cover him. It's complete crap that you should be allowed to grab a hold of him or his jersey because you're slow and can't keep up. Also I can't think of a single instance where I've seen holding called on hand fighting except when a DB grabbed the WR's forearm and yanked on him which is blatantly obvious.

[Victor7]

Balls:

Defensive effort - at least until they got gassed. IMO, they need another true DT in the rotation - even if KW was healthy.

Goats:

Coaching.

I was constantly yelling at the tv about not getting to the LOS quickly (and they're far from unique there). NE taught them a lesson there and the waning moments of the game.

Taylor is what he is. Calling curl patterns more would help him. Too much of the two-back set. Yes - keep NE guessing and free up McCoy - I get that. But I'd rather have an extra wr pop off the line and look back to the LOS given that Taylor is essentially in a scramble on (seemingly) most snaps. My 2 cents here...

That db blitz at the end of the half that resulted in a NE td...3rd and 10 from the 20 with 19 seconds left. I guess the official line is "missed assignment." Bunk. That was a lousy defensive play call at that time and distance.

Could not disagree more.

The DL more than held their own the whole game. In fact both Dareus and Mario missed lots of time with injuries and the back ups kept the pressure and the run game in check. Hughes was a one man wrecking crew

The only players to blame on D are the failure that is Duke Williams and Graham for his flag and poor tackling. Everyone else played a great game IMO

[Victor7]

No, and why would it? It's like saying the offside rule gives any DL the ability to just run across the line before the snap with a limited punishment. 10 yards and a free play isn't punishment enough for you?

The issue with defensive holding is that it can happen almost anywhere on the field. With DPI, there are all manner of restrictions on it: No DPI behind the LOS, no DPI if the ball is uncatchable, no DPI if the pass is tipped in the air. Even though that doesn't work all the time, the intention at least is that it's a harsher penalty because you know it meaningfully impacted the play. Defensive holding can be called on the tiniest hand fight on a route the QB doesn't even look for. Automatic first is too much for a penalty that doesn't directly affect the outcome of the play IMO

This

How many times have you seen a minuscule hold or grab of an arm away from the play result in an automatic first down ?? Its stupid. They should have a provision on the rule that if the penalty occurs away from the play its not a 1st down. Give the 5 yards but no automatic set of downs. It makes no sense.

[cookie G]

This

How many times have you seen a minuscule hold or grab of an arm away from the play result in an automatic first down ?? Its stupid. They should have a provision on the rule that if the penalty occurs away from the play its not a 1st down. Give the 5 yards but no automatic set of downs. It makes no sense.

The stupid part, to me, is watching someone grab a jersey and then complain about getting called. And when you watch a jersey getting tugged..that is by far the vast majority of the calls. When you get into things like whether it might have impeded a receiver...it gets worse, because you open it up to even more of a judgment call.

Keep it black and white and make your players learn the rule. Keep your palms open and don't clasp your fingers.

God, I think I'd be going Herman Boone on some players.

You grab a jersey while you're blocking or covering a receiver..you run a mile;
you block in the back on a kick off or punt return, you run a mile.

It gets down to sloppy football. Adapt, discipline yourself or keep getting called.

[Skooby]

BALLS: Anbody willing to stay up to watch the refs flop around like a live fish on a hot pan, what an embarrassment.

Goats: Refs watching NE's safeties / corners never look back for passes while running into the Bills WR. They only called one penalty (P. Interference) for that event on NE & that one wasn't near a scoring play.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Well the first issue is that they blow the play dead if you have an unimpeded path to the QB/RB so that's one of the reasons why they don't. Also there is nothing to gain by being offside for the defense. On a holding situation as I described you save your team yards and potentially keep points off the board. Being in an offside position doesn't offer either of those benefits to a defense.

It gives you leverage over the lineman and a much easier path to the QB.


That's not an issue, imo. If you can't cover the guy, then you can't cover him. It's complete crap that you should be allowed to grab a hold of him or his jersey because you're slow and can't keep up. Also I can't think of a single instance where I've seen holding called on hand fighting except when a DB grabbed the WR's forearm and yanked on him which is blatantly obvious.

No one's saying you should be "allowed" to grab a hold of him, silly. We're talking about what the appropriate penalty is for that infraction.

[DraftBoy]

It gives you leverage over the lineman and a much easier path to the QB.

Ok, which gives the defense a guarantee of nothing.


No one's saying you should be "allowed" to grab a hold of him, silly. We're talking about what the appropriate penalty is for that infraction.

Well aware and that is the appropriate penalty. If you can't cover the guy, and you break the rules its going to cost you and it should. Either get better or scheme better.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Ok, which gives the defense a guarantee of nothing.

Ok, and when was that the standard for anything?


Well aware and that is the appropriate penalty. If you can't cover the guy, and you break the rules its going to cost you and it should. Either get better or scheme better.

Why is it the appropriate penalty? As I said earlier, the automatic first for pass interference makes sense because the ball is actually in the air to the wideout at that point, and they still don't call it if the pass was so wild that the infraction doesn't affect the play.

Take the extreme example: What if defensive holding was an automatic ejection? You could still sit there with your cliches saying "If you can't cover the guy, and you break the rules its going to cost you and it should. Either get better or scheme better."

[DraftBoy]

Ok, and when was that the standard for anything?

Re-read the example I provided in my original response as to my issue with the lessening of the penalty. In that scenario there is something the defense is guaranteed to gain by taking the holding penalty, in your counter you don't approach that standard. If you didn't agree with it in the first place, that's one thing but when you responded in kind I was assuming you accepted the premise.



Why is it the appropriate penalty? As I said earlier, the automatic first for pass interference makes sense because the ball is actually in the air to the wideout at that point, and they still don't call it if the pass was so wild that the infraction doesn't affect the play.

Take the extreme example: What if defensive holding was an automatic ejection? You could still sit there with your cliches saying "If you can't cover the guy, and you break the rules its going to cost you and it should. Either get better or scheme better."

Because defensive holding is allowing the defense to basically guarantee something won't happen (like an offensive player get deep for a big gain or score). Whether that's away from where the play ended up going or not isn't really relevant because the hold negated what may have been able to develop.

No thanks on the extreme example, this isn't a discussion that needs hyperbole. I think we can hash this out on the basis of what the penalty is or isn't. If you have to take it to that level to try and make your point then I'm not sure you have one at all.

Not a cliche either, it's simply the reality. You want to change the rules to excuse somebody breaking them because they aren't talented enough or coached up well enough to play the game within the confines of the rules. I don't see a legitimate reason for that.

[chernobylwraiths]

I love when people say Taylor sucked and couldn't get the ball to anyone and then call out the receivers. Can't really pick them both.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Re-read the example I provided in my original response as to my issue with the lessening of the penalty. In that scenario there is something the defense is guaranteed to gain by taking the holding penalty, in your counter you don't approach that standard. If you didn't agree with it in the first place, that's one thing but when you responded in kind I was assuming you accepted the premise.

Because defensive holding is allowing the defense to basically guarantee something won't happen (like an offensive player get deep for a big gain or score). Whether that's away from where the play ended up going or not isn't really relevant because the hold negated what may have been able to develop.

The defense isn't guaranteed anything by taking a defensive holding penalty. The pass might not come that direction. In fact there might not even be a pass at all, it is possible to get called for defensive holding on a run play.

Awarding an automatic first without any conditions on what "may have been able to develop" is too severe. Why is it that the defense holding deserves an auto first but offensively holding allows them to replay the down? Why is holding a wideout treated so much worse then holding a pass rusher?


No thanks on the extreme example, this isn't a discussion that needs hyperbole. I think we can hash this out on the basis of what the penalty is or isn't. If you have to take it to that level to try and make your point then I'm not sure you have one at all.

It's a pretty obvious point. You like to defend the status quo simply because it is the status quo. If the status quo was different and extreme, would you still defend it? If so, why? And if not, what is different?


Not a cliche either, it's simply the reality. You want to change the rules to excuse somebody breaking them because they aren't talented enough or coached up well enough to play the game within the confines of the rules. I don't see a legitimate reason for that.

Because the penalty is too harsh for the infraction, and indeed is harsher on the defense then the offense for the same infraction. The NFL changes the rules all the time when they find that a rule is too harsh, too lenient, or too confusing to enforce.

[DraftBoy]

The defense isn't guaranteed anything by taking a defensive holding penalty. The pass might not come that direction. In fact there might not even be a pass at all, it is possible to get called for defensive holding on a run play.

Disagree, they are guaranteed that the player being held will not be making a play.


Awarding an automatic first without any conditions on what "may have been able to develop" is too severe. Why is it that the defense holding deserves an auto first but offensively holding allows them to replay the down? Why is holding a wideout treated so much worse then holding a pass rusher?

Offensive holding also negates any positive yardage gained which is why defensive holding costs you a first-down. It's the counter balance to what it is on the other side. It's not, it's treated almost entirely the same way.



It's a pretty obvious point. You like to defend the status quo simply because it is the status quo. If the status quo was different and extreme, would you still defend it? If so, why? And if not, what is different?

Has nothing to do with the status quo, in fact I'm all about changing the status quo whenever possible, but you don't just do that without a legitimate reason. There hasn't been one presented yet. The status quo isn't different or extreme so the what if hyperbole scenario you're trying to come up with has no relevance.



Because the penalty is too harsh for the infraction, and indeed is harsher on the defense then the offense for the same infraction. The NFL changes the rules all the time when they find that a rule is too harsh, too lenient, or too confusing to enforce.

Why? Because you say it is? You have yet to point one actual reason on how to quantify "harshness" other than your interpretation. They also change it as the game changes and evolves or as new scenarios emerge. None of those really give credence to a rule being changes because you think it should without some of kind of legitimate measurement.

[YardRat]

The offensive holding is a great analogy, Illumy...If defensive holding is so egregious that it requires 'double-dipping' (yardage and a first down awarded) maybe the offense should be penalized yardage and loss of down when that's called also.

[swiper]

What was that call that Watkins wasn't out of bounds on the final play?

[DraftBoy]

The offensive holding is a great analogy, Illumy...If defensive holding is so egregious that it requires 'double-dipping' (yardage and a first down awarded) maybe the offense should be penalized yardage and loss of down when that's called also.

I'd definitely be interested in this kind of a change. I believe part of the problem with the amount of penalties in today's game is that less and less technique is being taught because kids are getting away with just being dominant athletes. I know it would be completely arcane and ass backwards but I could absolutely lean toward making the rules tougher to force coaches to actually teach players how to actually play the game properly.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Disagree, they are guaranteed that the player being held will not be making a play.

No they are not. Not even pass interference "guarantees" the player won't make a play. We've all seen wideouts get completely mugged and still make the catch anyway.


Offensive holding also negates any positive yardage gained which is why defensive holding costs you a first-down. It's the counter balance to what it is on the other side. It's not, it's treated almost entirely the same way.

Defensive holding negates any negative play, voids any turnover (as we saw this week), and gives the offense a completely fresh set of downs. Offensive holding and defensive holding are not the same punishment. Hell, if the offensive holding happens far enough downfield it doesn't even negate all the yardage gained. Remember it can be 10 yards from the spot of the infraction or the end of the play, not always the LOS.


Has nothing to do with the status quo, in fact I'm all about changing the status quo whenever possible,

I'd like an example.


Why? Because you say it is? You have yet to point one actual reason on how to quantify "harshness" other than your interpretation.

How about the example that I've given multiple times now where it is harsher on the defense then the offense for the same infraction? Auto firsts/Loss of Down should be limited to plays where the player commits some kind of foul to prevent something imminent - a sack, a completion - or puts other players' safety at risk. Defensive holding does neither of those and so it should be limited to yardage only. And as I've also said, I'm willing to increase the yardage assessed.


They also change it as the game changes and evolves or as new scenarios emerge. None of those really give credence to a rule being changes because you think it should without some of kind of legitimate measurement.

How about the game is becoming ludicrously over officiated? Coaches are complaining about it, fans are complaining about it, even the broadcasters are complaining about it. In 1985, there were 669 first downs awarded on penalties for the entire season. In 1995 that was 697. In 2005 it was already up over 900, and in 2014 it was over 1000. We are already at 677 with 6 games to go, on pace for ~1077 first downs given by the zebras. Defensive holding I think is one way to push back on that without compromising player safety.

[DraftBoy]

No they are not. Not even pass interference "guarantees" the player won't make a play. We've all seen wideouts get completely mugged and still make the catch anyway.

Fair enough, greatly diminished then.


Defensive holding negates any negative play, voids any turnover (as we saw this week), and gives the offense a completely fresh set of downs. Offensive holding and defensive holding are not the same punishment. Hell, if the offensive holding happens far enough downfield it doesn't even negate all the yardage gained. Remember it can be 10 yards from the spot of the infraction or the end of the play, not always the LOS.

I'd love to see the numbers here on how often that actually occurs. I'd speculate that it's with far less frequency. For the record I'm not asking you to try and prove it either, just saying.


I'd like an example.

No problem, see my very next post in this thread. :-)


How about the example that I've given multiple times now where it is harsher on the defense then the offense for the same infraction? Auto firsts/Loss of Down should be limited to plays where the player commits some kind of foul to prevent something imminent - a sack, a completion - or puts other players' safety at risk. Defensive holding does neither of those and so it should be limited to yardage only. And as I've also said, I'm willing to increase the yardage assessed.

You haven't proven that point, you've simply stated it repeatedly. That's a great first step and I'm willing to make offensive holding a ten yard penalty and a loss of downs. You want to be more lienent and I want to make it stronger.


How about the game is becoming ludicrously over officiated? Coaches are complaining about it, fans are complaining about it, even the broadcasters are complaining about it. In 1985, there were 669 first downs awarded on penalties for the entire season. In 1995 that was 697. In 2005 it was already up over 900, and in 2014 it was over 1000. We are already at 677 with 6 games to go, on pace for ~1077 first downs given by the zebras. Defensive holding I think is one way to push back on that without compromising player safety.

You see this as a primary officiating issue where I see it as a much larger issue that is actually based in coaching, or a lack thereof. That's not to absolve the officials or league of all blame either by the way. The officials should be full time which is something we both agree on and also another change to the status quo.

Sorry for the limited post or if the formatting is off. Trying to post from the car while traveling.