How in the hell are people calling for Whaley to be fired?

[X-Era]

Makes no sense to me.

Let's take a look at his accomplishments:


Traded Kiko coming off a season long injury for one of the best RB's in the game
Re-signed Jerry Hughes which might have been the most un-classic-Bills-GM move in the past several decades. That was after the big investment on the DL.
Then turned around and extended Dareus which many thought we'd never pay for with, again, the huge investment already made on the DL
Drafted the best CB on this team who is up for DROY... in the 2nd round
Signed Tyrod Taylor who has played like the best Bills QB since Bledsoe... and out of literally nowhere. He signed a solid starting QB and the best one we've had in years... that alone deserves and extension
Drafted Miller in the 3rd round who has been a solid starter since day one
Drafted Karlos Williams in the 5th round
Signed Incognito who has been our best OL to a modest contract
Did NOT draft EJ
Traded picks to move up and get one of the most dynamic WR's in the game who has yet to even be fully used... blame Rex and Roman for that
Did not sign Byrd who got the huge money he wanted from NO and then has unperformed
Extended Aaron Williams to less than Byrd money who then went on to perform at an even higher level
Signed Clay to a contract Miami wouldn't match. Again, Rex and Roman are the ones not fully using him
Has spent cap money to sign, extend, and re-sign many players. Was not afraid to spend. And has kept us under the cap each year with no significant cap casualty cuts


And that's just recent

Yet some point to:

On the field play. What these players do on the field falls first and formeost on the coaches not GM
Hiring Rex. This is hilarious because Pegula made the choice. Rex reports directly to Pegula and not to Whaley by design. That's how Pegula wanted it remember?
Trading Cassel. This just in, Cassel sucks and has seriously sucked for Dallas. They probably gave him a gentlemen's agreement to let him go to try to catch on with another team since they wanted EJ as the backup. I have zero issue with Cassel being gone
Players getting injured. Flat out hillarious


The GM is supposed to find the talent and provide a good enough roster to compete at a playoff level. Whaley has done that. Rex and the coaches are the ones misusing the talent. He gave them Wegman's groceries and they are burning everything. This roster is the best it's been since the last time we went to the playoffs. Yet Rex, Roman, and Thurman can't manage to properly utilize their talents.

I like Whaley way more than any previous version at GM since Polian. It's ridiculous at best to blame Whaley for what Rex is doing with this team.

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water here. Whaley is just fine. I hope we extend him to a long deal.

[swiper]

The ONLY thing he that looks really brilliant was getting Darby.

You far over-rate much of what you posted there, like the other draft choices. His next best was Preston Brown.

Karlos Williams, Miller and Incognito's play has been decent at times, but over-rated by some. Again, if the Bills lose 2 more games everyone will go from glass half full to glass half empty. Your post is just another mid-week manic post after a much needed victory. I get that. These moves all look better when the Bills are winning. But they have looked bad. All those players you mentioned have looked bad at times this year. So let's see how you feel on Wednesday after the next loss.

[X-Era]

The ONLY thing he that looks really brilliant was getting Darby.

You far over-rate much of what you posted there, like the other draft choices. His next best was Preston Brown.

Karlos Williams, Miller and Incognito's play has been decent at times, but over-rated by some. Again, if the Bills lose 2 more games everyone will go from glass half full to glass half empty. Your post is just another mid-week manic post after a much needed victory. I get that. These moves all look better when the Bills are winning. But they have looked bad. All those players you mentioned have looked bad at times this year. So let's see how you feel on Wednesday after the next loss.

Karlos- 5th rounder
Miller- 3rd rounder
Incognito- cheap contract

Great value for all those players. I don't look at it like we need 11 studs starting on both sides of the ball. What he's added has made us better.

These moves look great to me period. Whaley provided a playoff caliber roster. Rex and the coaches are squandering it. Let's separate who's responsible for what.

[HAMMER]

The ONLY thing he that looks really brilliant was getting Darby.

You far over-rate much of what you posted there, like the other draft choices. His next best was Preston Brown.

Karlos Williams, Miller and Incognito's play has been decent at times, but over-rated by some. Again, if the Bills lose 2 more games everyone will go from glass half full to glass half empty. Your post is just another mid-week manic post after a much needed victory. I get that. These moves all look better when the Bills are winning. But they have looked bad. All those players you mentioned have looked bad at times this year. So let's see how you feel on Wednesday after the next loss.

You are clueless. Sure, all players look bad at times, we all have bad days. Based on the lack of quality in your posting, you seem to have a bad day everyday.

Incognito is playing great football, Karlos Williams tied a record for scoring in every game he played (2 in one game), Miller has been good, especially for a rookie. Tyrod is near the top of the league in several categories and is only 10 starts into his tenure as a starter. Watkins is almost uncovereable, Hughes has been a top 20 defender the last two years, complete stud. I could go on but by now you should get the point.

Whaley missed on a couple of OL players in the draft, other than that he has been excellent. What this team sorely lacks is continuity of systems, coaches, and GM's. Turning the page again helps no one.

[Mace]

Went through it all in the proclamation thread. In essence we're loaded with overpriced, injured, and misguided talent (plenty of passing weapons for a rushing offense, which costs a lot of cap going forward for guys not getting touches and no way you can argue they're getting enough touches), and Whaley "finds" which aren't any good but he won't get rid of because he found them.

It's like a magic show, where a guy goes through all these busy motions that don't do much, when the trick itself is simple and not much really happened, but the guy did a lot to make it look like something was happening.

Imho.

[Turf]

The offensive line is and has been a shamble. That and EJ. Not sure who to blame Marrone on.

[Mace]

Whaley missed on a couple of OL players in the draft, other than that he has been excellent. What this team sorely lacks is continuity of systems, coaches, and GM's. Turning the page again helps no one.

So he's been excellent except when he wasn't any good. Continuity with not-good for the sake of continuity is silly. 4 years of Donahoe and 3 of Nix was pretty continuous enough to tell you it would have been ridiculous to keep it going for the sake of continuity.

[X-Era]

Went through it all in the proclamation thread. In essence we're loaded with overpriced, injured, and misguided talent (plenty of passing weapons for a rushing offense, which costs a lot of cap going forward for guys not getting touches and no way you can argue they're getting enough touches), and Whaley "finds" which aren't any good but he won't get rid of because he found them.

It's like a magic show, where a guy goes through all these busy motions that don't do much, when the trick itself is simple and not much really happened, but the guy did a lot to make it look like something was happening.

Imho.

Disagree with overpriced
Injured is not Whaleys fault
Misguided is also not on Whaley... that's on Rex
Passing attack not using the players? Again, that's Rex and Roman. Rex reports directly to Pegula by his design

I feel like you're mis-assigning blame

[Mace]

Disagree with overpriced
Injured is not Whaleys fault
Misguided is also not on Whaley... that's on Rex
Passing attack not using the players? Again, that's Rex and Roman. Rex reports directly to Pegula by his design

I feel like you're mis-assigning blame

Dunno. There's an awful lot of not durable guys supposed to be playing durable positions you have to admit. You don't need to overspend on what you can scout when scouting is your strong suit, that's where your "finds" and udfa's come into play. Like at RB and WR.

Sure a lot is on Rex and Roman, I think Rex in particular is terrible anyway, but they both are what they are. Rex is all about his defense type guys, Roman is a running game man. So honestly, where is the value loading up on passing weapons ? I'm not real sure Rex and Roman badgered Whaley "get us passing weapons !" The big play for Watkins, you also have to admit, was frosting on a cake that wasn't baked, except Whaley was that sure of Manuel.

I respect your thought, really I do. I thought we had great talent before also, just miscoached and saw them do nothing when they went elsewhere. Great talent doesn't mean good players.

One more thing that people avoid, and I do too, is Marrone/Hackett/Manuel K-gun. That was Whaley standing tall as GM and grabbing the OL trio to support it, and Watkins, with his hand picked staff to make it so.

I don't like Rex as an HC, really I don't. I blame him plenty. But I think Whaley tries too hard, poorly judges talent for value, and just matches Ryan's bad with his own flaws.

He's not going to be a GM again after this if we let him go. You know it.

[Mr. Pink]

Misguided is also not on Whaley... that's on Rex
Passing attack not using the players? Again, that's Rex and Roman. Rex reports directly to Pegula by his design

I feel like you're mis-assigning blame

Misguided isn't on Rex, it's on Whaley.

Drafted Robert Woods in the 2nd round, then the following year he doubled down on EJ being the future by using two first round picks on a WR for him. Then went out and gave Charles Clay a stupid contract so Miami couldn't match it. While the offense still has no QB for any of that to matter. Meanwhile, while giving Clay stupid money, he went out and got a RB who obviously would end up being the focal point in the offense who also makes stupid money, especially in a league where running the football doesn't sustain success nor even really matter.

The passing attack is on Whaley for not bringing in a real NFL QB. We have one guy who can't protect the football and another guy who's a one read running back who is literally afraid to throw over the middle of the field. Which pretty much negates that 7m tight end for the most part.

You tell me what difference it would have made to pay Scott Chandler 3m instead of Clay 7m the way this offense is currently constructed? You tell me what difference it would have made to stay pat in 2014 and draft Brandin Cooks or Kelvin Benjamin instead of moving up to get Sammy the way the offense is currently constructed? Notice I said nothing about Beckham who is leaps and bounds better than Sammy nor the 2015 1st round pick who Cleveland wasted on Cam Erving.

Nor do I bring up the fact that Whaley has effectively hamstrung this team from being able to keep a franchise QB if Tyrod was such a thing or whoever they bring in this offseason is such a thing, since the franchise has 200m invested in a defensive line that matters as much as running the ball does in this league.

[YardRat]

I really like a lot the influx of apparent talent that Whaley has stocked the roster with since being promoted...and I agree with placing the lion's share of blame on Rex and his staff...but some of the things I don't like about Whaley...

1--Don't like the 'I acquire the players, the head coach plays them on Sundays' philosophy. A front office and coaching staff are supposed to work together as a team as much as the players do on the field. If I were an owner, I wouldn't hire a GM with that attitude, if I were a head coach I wouldn't want to work 'with' that guy, and if I were a GM I couldn't work that way myself.

2---Don't like the over-emphasis on acquiring flashy toys this past off-season and not placing a higher priority on the trenches.

3---Don't like the 'roster roulette' this season. Cassel--trade for, cut, re-sign, trade. Gay--cut, re-sign. Thigpen--cut, re-sign.

4---Don't like Freddie being cut, really don't like FJax coming out and alluding to Whaley being dishonest.

5---You know damn well that, regardless if the buck stops with the Pegulas, Whaley had a hand in the process of bringing Rex and his clown car into the fold.

2 and 3 are examples of basic roster mismanagement. 4 was just stupidity, both from a talent and intangibles standpoint, not to mention classless. 1 and 5 combined are almost completely inexcusable.

[YardRat]

lol...this thread was the first I visited tonight, and the proclamation one was the third...my apologies to Pink for unintentionally ripping his roster roulette comment.

[Ginger Vitis]

Incognito's play has been decent at times,

Most clueless thing you've ever said.. You have no clue what you're seeing offensive line wise

[Mace]

lol...this thread was the first I visited tonight, and the proclamation one was the third...my apologies to Pink for unintentionally ripping his roster roulette comment.

Don't apologize to Pink, Mr. 145 power to give rep. He needs to be green by '19 or he'll be red if I'm dead. Plus 1 him. I'm struggling at my 14 power to give rep to move him up a bubble and have to talk way more than I want to in order to try.

Besides that, just heckle him in the comments when you plus 1 him if you disagree, or even if you agree. Pink could care less, and you're contributing to a Mace sanctioned cause that guarantees I won't be mean to you about Scott Chandler's career season.

[Mr. Pink]

lol...this thread was the first I visited tonight, and the proclamation one was the third...my apologies to Pink for unintentionally ripping his roster roulette comment.

The roster roulette thing is one of the most incompetent things I've ever seen a professional sports franchise do...not just in the NFL but any major professional sport.

I've never seen any team cut one guy to sign another, then the next week literally cut the guy they signed to re-sign the guy they cut to get him the previous week. Just reading it in those terms illustrates how absolutely idiotic the entire situation is and the brilliant GM here orchestrated that maneuver.

[swiper]

You are clueless. Sure, all players look bad at times, we all have bad days. Based on the lack of quality in your posting, you seem to have a bad day everyday.

Incognito is playing great football, Karlos Williams tied a record for scoring in every game he played (2 in one game), Miller has been good, especially for a rookie. Tyrod is near the top of the league in several categories and is only 10 starts into his tenure as a starter. Watkins is almost uncovereable, Hughes has been a top 20 defender the last two years, complete stud. I could go on but by now you should get the point.

Whaley missed on a couple of OL players in the draft, other than that he has been excellent. What this team sorely lacks is continuity of systems, coaches, and GM's. Turning the page again helps no one.

LOL. I'm not the one who's clueless. Again, they aren't as good as you say or the Bills would be better than their lousy record.

[X-Era]

I really like a lot the influx of apparent talent that Whaley has stocked the roster with since being promoted...and I agree with placing the lion's share of blame on Rex and his staff...but some of the things I don't like about Whaley...

1--Don't like the 'I acquire the players, the head coach plays them on Sundays' philosophy. A front office and coaching staff are supposed to work together as a team as much as the players do on the field. If I were an owner, I wouldn't hire a GM with that attitude, if I were a head coach I wouldn't want to work 'with' that guy, and if I were a GM I couldn't work that way myself.

2---Don't like the over-emphasis on acquiring flashy toys this past off-season and not placing a higher priority on the trenches.

3---Don't like the 'roster roulette' this season. Cassel--trade for, cut, re-sign, trade. Gay--cut, re-sign. Thigpen--cut, re-sign.

4---Don't like Freddie being cut, really don't like FJax coming out and alluding to Whaley being dishonest.

5---You know damn well that, regardless if the buck stops with the Pegulas, Whaley had a hand in the process of bringing Rex and his clown car into the fold.

2 and 3 are examples of basic roster mismanagement. 4 was just stupidity, both from a talent and intangibles standpoint, not to mention classless. 1 and 5 combined are almost completely inexcusable.

1- was setup by Pegula. Do you really think Whaley told Pegula he didn't want Rex reporting to him?
2- we wanted Bulaga and didn't get him. But I can agree that he didn't go after huge upgrades on the line
3- I see your point. Again, I wonder if it's a gentleman's agreement that if the player won't start the Bills would release them to let them catch on with another team
5- Of course he had a hand in the process. But was Whaley the main driver for getting Rex. I'd be surprised if that were true

[YardRat]

1- was setup by Pegula. Do you really think Whaley told Pegula he didn't want Rex reporting to him?
2- we wanted Bulaga and didn't get him. But I can agree that he didn't go after huge upgrades on the line
3- I see your point. Again, I wonder if it's a gentleman's agreement that if the player won't start the Bills would release them to let them catch on with another team
5- Of course he had a hand in the process. But was Whaley the main driver for getting Rex. I'd be surprised if that were true

Whaley initially made the comment under Wilson/Brandon.

[BertSquirtgum]

**** yeah. Let's get rid of the best GM the Bills have had in years. Then we can bring in some **** who doesn't work well with Rex and watch things really go awry.

[feldspar]

I STILL think that trading Cassel was a bone-headed move. I believe we'd be 7-5 if Cassel was the backup...we'd have easily won that Jacksonville game with just about anyone other than EJ playing quarterback.

Hard not to think about that penalty in that game...you know the one I mean.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Everyone should be fired, always.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Everyone should be fired, always.

Firing everyone has always made teams Superbowl contenders, I don't understand why every team doesn't fire everyone every time they miss the playoffs. There should be about 60% turnover every year in the NFL, if teams fully understood how good firing everyone makes them.

[gebobs]

Firing everyone has always made teams Superbowl contenders, I don't understand why every team doesn't fire everyone every time they miss the playoffs. There should be about 60% turnover every year in the NFL, if teams fully understood how good firing everyone makes them.

On the other hand, there teams that stay the course for years on end and never get anywhere e.g. Barry Trotz/David Poile with the Nashville Predators.

[Joe Fo Sho]

On the other hand, there teams that stay the course for years on end and never get anywhere e.g. Barry Trotz/David Poile with the Nashville Predators.

I don't know much about hockey, but a quick wiki search shows that they've made the playoffs in 8 of the last 11 years. There are worse things in sports than having a competitive team every year.

[BuffaloRedleg]

Firing everyone has always made teams Superbowl contenders, I don't understand why every team doesn't fire everyone every time they miss the playoffs. There should be about 60% turnover every year in the NFL, if teams fully understood how good firing everyone makes them.

The data shows that 100% of teams that have won a Superbowl got their current coach by firing their last coach.

Therefore, every single team should fire their coach so they can win the Superbowl.

This isn't rocket science people.

[Topas]

I assume this is sarcasm. But I am not sure...

In case this is serious. Tomlin became coach after Cowher stepped down. So that is less than 100%. And there are other examples, I am sure.

[gebobs]

I don't know much about hockey, but a quick wiki search shows that they've made the playoffs in 8 of the last 11 years. There are worse things in sports than having a competitive team every year.

Here's the skinny on them: they are regular season kings. They post lots of wins in the regular season, get home ice advantage, and then get grinded out, usually in the first round. Just making the playoffs, Buffalo's record in that regard notwithstanding, is not really a big deal. More than half the teams do, thus at least a few below average teams make it.

[gebobs]

I assume this is sarcasm. But I am not sure...

In case this is serious. Tomlin became coach after Cowher stepped down. So that is less than 100%. And there are other examples, I am sure.

It's definitely sarcasm. It's like saying that 100% of all people who drink water eventually die.

[mightysimi]

This is the most talented roster Buffalo has had in a very long time. The team is no longer holding on to their guys out of loyalty and instead are replacing guys based on production. He is not afraid to make a move and not afraid to be agressive to try to put the best team on the field. No GM hits on everything. I think he has done a good job.

On a seperate note with the EJ hate on overdrive, this has to be the first time in 10+ years that the backup QB isn't the most popular guy in Buffalo!!

[Victor7]

Makes no sense to me.

Let's take a look at his accomplishments:


Traded Kiko coming off a season long injury for one of the best RB's in the game
Re-signed Jerry Hughes which might have been the most un-classic-Bills-GM move in the past several decades. That was after the big investment on the DL.
Then turned around and extended Dareus which many thought we'd never pay for with, again, the huge investment already made on the DL
Drafted the best CB on this team who is up for DROY... in the 2nd round
Signed Tyrod Taylor who has played like the best Bills QB since Bledsoe... and out of literally nowhere. He signed a solid starting QB and the best one we've had in years... that alone deserves and extension
Drafted Miller in the 3rd round who has been a solid starter since day one
Drafted Karlos Williams in the 5th round
Signed Incognito who has been our best OL to a modest contract
Did NOT draft EJ
Traded picks to move up and get one of the most dynamic WR's in the game who has yet to even be fully used... blame Rex and Roman for that
Did not sign Byrd who got the huge money he wanted from NO and then has unperformed
Extended Aaron Williams to less than Byrd money who then went on to perform at an even higher level
Signed Clay to a contract Miami wouldn't match. Again, Rex and Roman are the ones not fully using him
Has spent cap money to sign, extend, and re-sign many players. Was not afraid to spend. And has kept us under the cap each year with no significant cap casualty cuts


And that's just recent

Yet some point to:

On the field play. What these players do on the field falls first and formeost on the coaches not GM
Hiring Rex. This is hilarious because Pegula made the choice. Rex reports directly to Pegula and not to Whaley by design. That's how Pegula wanted it remember?
Trading Cassel. This just in, Cassel sucks and has seriously sucked for Dallas. They probably gave him a gentlemen's agreement to let him go to try to catch on with another team since they wanted EJ as the backup. I have zero issue with Cassel being gone
Players getting injured. Flat out hillarious


The GM is supposed to find the talent and provide a good enough roster to compete at a playoff level. Whaley has done that. Rex and the coaches are the ones misusing the talent. He gave them Wegman's groceries and they are burning everything. This roster is the best it's been since the last time we went to the playoffs. Yet Rex, Roman, and Thurman can't manage to properly utilize their talents.

I like Whaley way more than any previous version at GM since Polian. It's ridiculous at best to blame Whaley for what Rex is doing with this team.

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water here. Whaley is just fine. I hope we extend him to a long deal.

1. Still have to see if McCoy keeps it up for more seasons. He's at the age that RB's usually start to tail off. Certainly looks like a win so far.
2 and 3. Resigning star players is far from a medal deserving achievement. I'll never understand why those are considered good moves. They are obvious moves.
4. One of his best moves for certain
5. Not Whaley at all. This is all Rex. Its well known he had been pursuing TT since his Jets days.
6. Solid ? I don't know. He looks good some days and like **** in other. I'd say a push so far. Certainly can get better, he's just a rookie.
7. We all love Karlos but he's missed just about as many games as he's played. Good move but again hardly a great move or something to hang your reputation on.
8. Great move. Though I'm not sure if this is Whaley or Rex
9. Lie. He did. EJ is Whaley's love child. Keeps shoving him down Rex's throat. This is his biggest and most obvious failure. I don't understand how you can possibly not pin this on him.
10. Over spent. Love Sammy but the cost was huge
11. Good non move
12. Again extending good players is part of his job. He gets no credit from this. Its football 101
13. Remains to be seen. Clay is good but we might've over payed. Have to wait and see him play a couple more years to correctly evaluate.
14. Staying under the cap gets you credit ?? .... Common this is a stretch. He HAS to.

He's also
Drafted Koundjio with a 2nd round pick. Colossal bust
Failed and boy how he has failed to provide depth at LB. Preston is decent. The rest are below average to say the least
Single handedly cost us the Jax game with his stubbornness to have his bff EJ play. No shot Cassel loses that game. He never would've spotted 21 points to the Jags.
Cut Fred Jackson.
RT is a mess


He's not the worst GM by any means. But he's nowhere near as good as some people think. The EJ stuff alone is grounds for termination.

[gebobs]

2 and 3. Resigning star players is far from a medal deserving achievement. I'll never understand why those are considered good moves. They are obvious moves.
Nail-hammer meeting on your post. But regarding Hughes, we might want to give Whaley some credit for the initial trade though it happened about a week before he officially became GM. Hughes might be a bit of a loose cannon, but he's still a beast. Sheppard is foundering.

[Joe Fo Sho]

Here's the skinny on them: they are regular season kings. They post lots of wins in the regular season, get home ice advantage, and then get grinded out, usually in the first round. Just making the playoffs, Buffalo's record in that regard notwithstanding, is not really a big deal. More than half the teams do, thus at least a few below average teams make it.

Alright, so can you compare them to the Bengals? Although it's more difficult to make the playoffs in the NFL, would you want Marvin Lewis fired if he went one and done in the playoffs this year for the 7th time?

[Mr. Pink]

Alright, so can you compare them to the Bengals? Although it's more difficult to make the playoffs in the NFL, would you want Marvin Lewis fired if he went one and done in the playoffs this year for the 7th time?

Lewis should have been fired years ago.

[gebobs]

Alright, so can you compare them to the Bengals? Although it's more difficult to make the playoffs in the NFL, would you want Marvin Lewis fired if he went one and done in the playoffs this year for the 7th time?

That's a good question and if that happens there will undoubtedly be calls for his head by the fans. Mike Brown is ostensibly the GM and, as the owner, he's not going to fire himself. Lewis is considered to be the co-GM and probably was instrumental in selecting Dalton so he has that going for him.

This is Dalton's fifth year, he's a known quantity, and he's going to be around a long time. In that regard, the Bengals are operating from a position of strength. On the one hand, it makes draft day less complicated every year. And on another, it makes any potential coaching vacancy attractive. I think the Bengals would be able to attract a higher caliber candidate perhaps than the Bills (admittedly, this is speculation). At the end of the year, if they don't make it to the conference championship as they should, the Bengals will probably put some feelers out. If something feels like a good fit, they'll kick Lewis upstairs if they don't can him.

[Joe Fo Sho]

That's a good question and if that happens there will undoubtedly be calls for his head by the fans. Mike Brown is ostensibly the GM and, as the owner, he's not going to fire himself. Lewis is considered to be the co-GM and probably was instrumental in selecting Dalton so he has that going for him.

This is Dalton's fifth year, he's a known quantity, and he's going to be around a long time. In that regard, the Bengals are operating from a position of strength. On the one hand, it makes draft day less complicated every year. And on another, it makes any potential coaching vacancy attractive. I think the Bengals would be able to attract a higher caliber candidate perhaps than the Bills (admittedly, this is speculation). At the end of the year, if they don't make it to the conference championship as they should, the Bengals will probably put some feelers out. If something feels like a good fit, they'll kick Lewis upstairs if they don't can him.

Good points.

As the fan of a team that has missed the playoffs for 15 years, I couldn't call for the firing of Marvin Lewis. There are plenty of options that are much worse than him. I wonder if Philly fans regret firing Andy Reid? New does not mean better. Bills fans should know this as well as anyone.

[trapezeus]

whaley definitely took credit for EJ at the time. and the trade up for Sammy was to aid EJ's development. That didn't work at all.

I agree that he's developed a team better than any of the previous regime's in 2000. but you can't strip him of EJ when he's on the record owning that call.

he will need to find a stud LB to Rex's liking this year or else rex and him will go out together

[stuckincincy]

That's a good question and if that happens there will undoubtedly be calls for his head by the fans. Mike Brown is ostensibly the GM and, as the owner, he's not going to fire himself. Lewis is considered to be the co-GM and probably was instrumental in selecting Dalton so he has that going for him.

This is Dalton's fifth year, he's a known quantity, and he's going to be around a long time. In that regard, the Bengals are operating from a position of strength. On the one hand, it makes draft day less complicated every year. And on another, it makes any potential coaching vacancy attractive. I think the Bengals would be able to attract a higher caliber candidate perhaps than the Bills (admittedly, this is speculation). At the end of the year, if they don't make it to the conference championship as they should, the Bengals will probably put some feelers out. If something feels like a good fit, they'll kick Lewis upstairs if they don't can him.

I would be surprised if Coach-for-Life Marvin gets upstairs. He's not family. Since owner Brown abandoned the GM title (and paying himself), CIN doesn't have a GM - that duty is handled by family member Katie Blackburn. And their Director of Player Personnel, Duke Tobin. Tobin is very sharp.

Here is their hierarchy:

http://www.bengals.com/team/staff-directory.html

There is a former agent name of Joel Corry who has been contributing articles to the CBS NFL site. His analysis of how CIN turned that joke of a franchise under Brown's tutelage to a competitive club is a good read - a road map. In many ways, the antitheis of BUF's approach:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25330600/agents-take-how-the-bengals-have-become-one-of-the-nfls-respected-franchises

[Ingtar33]

Listen, I've been a harsh critic of Whaley since he drafted EJ
(and yes, he drafted EJ, i'm sure Nix had something to do with it too, but it's been clear since day 1, that EJ was his boy)

Then giving credit for signing Taylor, when Taylor was always Rex's guy is just as disingenuous

That said he has done something no GM has done since TD, which is he has improved the overall talent of this team. He hasn't hit on all of his picks. His trade up for Watkins, in retrospect looks stupid (and I don't dislike watkins, he just isn't worth the trade up), and how he treated FJ was appalling. But again, he's not been perfect. Still he has improved the talent at every position on the field. I definitely trust his defensive draft picks/FA signings. Personally i think he he's doing a solid job. I might not particularly trust him yet, but I don't see how you could call for his head just yet either.

[stuckincincy]

Listen, I've been a harsh critic of Whaley since he drafted EJ
(and yes, he drafted EJ, i'm sure Nix had something to do with it too, but it's been clear since day 1, that EJ was his boy)

Then giving credit for signing Taylor, when Taylor was always Rex's guy is just as disingenuous

That said he has done something no GM has done since TD, which is he has improved the overall talent of this team. He hasn't hit on all of his picks. His trade up for Watkins, in retrospect looks stupid (and I don't dislike watkins, he just isn't worth the trade up), and how he treated FJ was appalling. But again, he's not been perfect. Still he has improved the talent at every position on the field. I definitely trust his defensive draft picks/FA signings. Personally i think he he's doing a solid job. I might not particularly trust him yet, but I don't see how you could call for his head just yet either.

Well, I'm certainly not calling for his head, but inking high-priced FAs generally packs the stands but doesn't build a club over time. They are 6 -6 with a shorty QB that scoots when he can't pick up patterns other than sidelines. Their cap situation isn't good.

[X-Era]

whaley definitely took credit for EJ at the time. and the trade up for Sammy was to aid EJ's development. That didn't work at all.

I agree that he's developed a team better than any of the previous regime's in 2000. but you can't strip him of EJ when he's on the record owning that call.

he will need to find a stud LB to Rex's liking this year or else rex and him will go out togetherNix was the GM. But I agree that Whaley was heavily involved with the EJ pick. Whether you think EJ is garbage like I now do or not, who was better from that draft? Is there anyone vastly better? It was a garbage QB draft. They went in hellbent on finding the future of the franchise. There wasn't one. Should they have simply punted and said pass on the QB position altogether that year? Maybe in hindsight. They tried to sift through the trash to find someone good and failed.

Nix deserves blame for making the pick. Whaley, in more of a consultant role, would deserve blame if he picked the wrong QB prospect. I'm not sure he did since they all suck.

[X-Era]

Well, I'm certainly not calling for his head, but inking high-priced FAs generally packs the stands but doesn't build a club over time. They are 6 -6 with a shorty QB that scoots when he can't pick up patterns other than sidelines. Their cap situation isn't good.The record is mostly on the coaching NOT the talent on the roster. I'm thankful that is finally the case.

Their cap situation isn't bad. They won't be way over the cap and they have room to maneuver when they make the likely moves. They don't have to do massive cuts. We suffered through years of cap hell and Whaley hasn't done that. They re-signed Dareus which ate into their 2016 cap room. It was an early off-season move and he retained our highest priority in the off-season.

[gebobs]

Nix was the GM. But I agree that Whaley was heavily involved with the EJ pick. Whether you think EJ is garbage like I now do or not, who was better from that draft? Is there anyone vastly better? It was a garbage QB draft.
It was a relatively weak draft all around.

[X-Era]

It was a relatively weak draft all around.Weaker than many but guys like Eifert, Hopkins, Alonso, Jamie Collins, and Eddie Lacy standout.

[BertSquirtgum]

The record is mostly on the coaching NOT the talent on the roster. I'm thankful that is finally the case.

Their cap situation isn't bad. They won't be way over the cap and they have room to maneuver when they make the likely moves. They don't have to do massive cuts. We suffered through years of cap hell and Whaley hasn't done that. They re-signed Dareus which ate into their 2016 cap room. It was an early off-season move and he retained our highest priority in the off-season.

People were crying the Bills didn't spend up to the cap. Now, people are crying about possible cap trouble which has yet to even be determined.

[X-Era]

People were crying the Bills didn't spend up to the cap. Now, people are crying about possible cap trouble which has yet to even be determined.
Spotrac has us at 147 in cap spent next year with a possible cap of 153. We then can roll over the 8 mill we have in cap room from this year. That puts us at 14 mill in cap room before we make a single move. Restructure Clay and Mario and we're fine.

Lock up Glenn before he hits the market. The Raiders or some team with boatloads of cap room may over pay him.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cap/2016/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/05/nfl-salary-cap-will-rise-above-150-million-in-2016/

[Mace]

Spotrac has us at 147 in cap spent next year with a possible cap of 153. We then can roll over the 8 mill we have in cap room from this year. That puts us at 14 mill in cap room before we make a single move. Restructure Clay and Mario and we're fine.

Lock up Glenn before he hits the market. The Raiders or some team with boatloads of cap room may over pay him.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/cap/2016/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/05/nfl-salary-cap-will-rise-above-150-million-in-2016/

Draft allocation is generally around 5 so you're best to start at 8 million before we make any moves, and don't forget Incognito and Bradham maybe. Gilmore, WR Woods and Taylor are up in 2017 so you might want to extend them cheaper earlier, if you mean to keep them. So I guess to me, that means a minimum, you want to work on that 8 million for Glenn, Incognito, Gilmore and Woods. Taylor ? Ouch.

Vet window is closing fast for this team, and they'd better start getting durable production for value or you're going to be seeing a lot of inadequate journeymen coming and going.

Still don't see any reason to think Whaley is the guy who gives it to you.

I think they have a small window for a good draft before they start losing people by necessity.

[X-Era]

Draft allocation is generally around 5 so you're best to start at 8 million before we make any moves, and don't forget Incognito and Bradham maybe. Gilmore, WR Woods and Taylor are up in 2017 so you might want to extend them cheaper earlier, if you mean to keep them. So I guess to me, that means a minimum, you want to work on that 8 million for Glenn, Incognito, Gilmore and Woods. Taylor ? Ouch.

Vet window is closing fast for this team, and they'd better start getting durable production for value or you're going to be seeing a lot of inadequate journeymen coming and going.

Still don't see any reason to think Whaley is the guy who gives it to you.

I think they have a small window for a good draft before they start losing people by necessity.You don't make all those moves in one year.

First off, I watched the Fitz situation play out and I absolutely don't want Tyrod getting a new contract until the end of next year.

Secondly, that figure did not include likely cuts like McKelvin and Urbik nor restructuring the Mario and Clay deals. We could easily get to 20 mil in cap room with cuts, restructuring, roll over of this years cap, and the raise in the cap.

[Mace]

You don't make all those moves in one year.

First off, I watched the Fitz situation play out and I absolutely don't want Tyrod getting a new contract until the end of next year.

Secondly, that figure did not include likely cuts like McKelvin and Urbik nor restructuring the Mario and Clay deals. We could easily get to 20 mil in cap room with cuts, restructuring, roll over of this years cap, and the raise in the cap.

Minus 5 million for rookies. Notice I didn't mention Urbik, McKelvin or a few others who could well be gone. You might not want Tyrod getting a new contract until next year but oh it wrecks your equation if he's any good. That's the gamble of an astute GM and your measure of Whaley. If Taylor costs bigger you waited too long. Same with Gilmore and Woods.

Incognito and Bradham are absolutely before next year. GM supply a guard or LB to cover their loss yet ? No.

Not real sure why you think Clay restructures after one year, Mario might, or maybe might not. He's got plenty of money and might want a better role elsewhere with some new checks from a better contender. For that matter Clay might say well, if you don't like it I'll head to a passing offense and you'll pay me anyway.

You're pretty sure of money that isn't there yet and I'm just pointing out it's not there yet, nor have the roles been filled with successors by your GM guy who is all that and loaded the roster with talent. If we have that much talent, why even worry about it, we're stocked ?

Because we aren't and you have to.

[sdbillsfan2]

Whaley owns the EJ pick.. I'll never forget that day. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000204027/article/new-bills-gm-doug-whaley-integral-in-ej-manuel-pick

[Ingtar33]

I absolutely don't want Tyrod getting a new contract until the end of next year.

he's a FA at the end of next season. you want to get into a bidding war over him? A bidding war we can't win?

Listen it's been a long time since we've even had mediocre QB play behind center. you can't win in this league without a QB. I'm not saying this cat is worth a huge contract, i'm just saying the reality is, if we want him past next season we need to resign him this offseason.

[gebobs]

Listen it's been a long time since we've even had mediocre QB play behind center.
Thank god we finally have one!

[Mr. Pink]

Whaley is no different than Donahoe, just with a little better personality and public relations skills.

Look at how the team was constructed under each guy. Look at how the teams have both fallen short.

[X-Era]

he's a FA at the end of next season. you want to get into a bidding war over him? A bidding war we can't win?

Listen it's been a long time since we've even had mediocre QB play behind center. you can't win in this league without a QB. I'm not saying this cat is worth a huge contract, i'm just saying the reality is, if we want him past next season we need to resign him this offseason.I really don't want us to do that. He has to show more before he gets the big contract. IMO it's likely that he wants to stay with us first and foremost. We can get the contract done mid next year if he continues to look good.

[mightysimi]

How about if we run the table and win a playoff game?

As much as I don't want to pay him, the reality of the situation is that someone will pay him that amount, I just hate the idea of starting over. Again.

Can I ask what it is that people don't like about Taylor? He is in the top 10 in nearly every passing category and has used his legs when he had to. Maybe a little too much for my liking but I think that gets better by the game. He is still in the first year of a new system. If this was an "established veteran" people would be saying to give him time to learn it. I think he is a little more Russel Wilson than Micheal Vick which is clearly a type of player that you can win with. No one is questioning the Russel Wilson contract after throwing 11 TD in the last 3 games. The reality is that is the cost of doing business in today's NFL. I would rather take a shot at it then starting over. Again.

[Ingtar33]

Can I ask what it is that people don't like about Taylor?

he's not Aaron Rodgers, and he's no Drew Brees. That's part of the problem. The other part is we've seen this show with RGIII, when a small running QB gets killed in the nfl and spends most of his career on IR. When Taylor won the starting job the biggest concern was his size. and sure enough he missed 2 games (out of 12 thus far).

Throw in the fact he is still a bit limited throwing (no crossing patterns, no ins), and there is a chunk of fans who get mad and skeptical at anyone "hyped" by other fans and you have most of the concerns.

I think the "limited" concerns are a little short sighted. It took Drew Brees almost 3 full seasons to figure out how to throw "around and over" nfl linemen. You could argue Russel Wilson still doesn't know how to do it. I accepted he'd be limited in the passing game just due to the level of experience he was bringing into the season with him. But i've seen more growth in his first 10 games then i've see with EJ in 3 seasons.

The biggest concerns for me at the injury ones. I've seen enough growth in his game to be willing to take a shot at resigning him. I'm just worried he'll spend long periods of time out due to injury.

[Mace]

How about if we run the table and win a playoff game?

As much as I don't want to pay him, the reality of the situation is that someone will pay him that amount, I just hate the idea of starting over. Again.

Can I ask what it is that people don't like about Taylor? He is in the top 10 in nearly every passing category and has used his legs when he had to. Maybe a little too much for my liking but I think that gets better by the game. He is still in the first year of a new system. If this was an "established veteran" people would be saying to give him time to learn it. I think he is a little more Russel Wilson than Micheal Vick which is clearly a type of player that you can win with. No one is questioning the Russel Wilson contract after throwing 11 TD in the last 3 games. The reality is that is the cost of doing business in today's NFL. I would rather take a shot at it then starting over. Again.

If we even win 3 of 4, and lose a playoff game or don't even get one, I won't have any problem admitting Whaley might work. Everyone hates the idea of starting over again, but is it better sooner or later, and really we won't be starting over so much as attempting a transition.

If we run the table and win a playoff game, I'm clearly wrong and I'll admit it. Might not like how he did things, that won't change, but it worked, so I was wrong and that's that.

I like Taylor. I see him possibly growing. He's got this quiet "get it done" mentality that makes me hope he works. My doubts about Taylor are in his durability. He can be the shiznit for this offense for 7 games a year, but we play 16. Any QB is not going to be superman for 16 games, but if you're counting on some dubious backup (any dubious backup) too often, it's just bad. Might be diff if he was a rookie and unprepared for the rugged schedule, but he's been in the league a while, aching for his chance, so it shouldn't be a matter of conditioning. It's more like maybe his body won't hold up to it. I don't think Taylor strikes me as a slacker for prep.

Teams necessarily have to commit and overpay to a QB. You can do that with a Fitz, or a good one, or an excellent one, overpaying for bad, good or great. That money is going to cost you though if you make the wrong choice, and I'm not so sure Whaley has a great track record past players who are obvious.

We have all kinds of "talent" at 6-6, most of it we had last year, I mean you don't win games on how good you might think you can be, using guys not playing to their value, even with a coach who can't use them. The GM gives you usable talent with whoever his dingbat coach might be, to serve the strength of the staff. Parcells said "you are what your record is". We're 6-6. The smoke and mirrors for the team has been endless. We're always talented.

Whaley/Ryan a bad marriage ? Maybe. One or the other needs to adapt, did they ?

I have no clue. 3-1 though even would tell me something, it would tell me there is hope. 2-2 in a weak season for nearly every team, just imho, would be unwell.

[The Natrix]

I completely understand the castle thing. I'm not sure why anyone is still bringing him up. It's not that hard to find someome better than him and EJ. TT is obviously a better option than those two scrubs.

I'm still not impressed with Whaley and Ryan in the grand scheme of things.

[YardRat]

he's not Aaron Rodgers, and he's no Drew Brees. That's part of the problem. The other part is we've seen this show with RGIII, when a small running QB gets killed in the nfl and spends most of his career on IR. When Taylor won the starting job the biggest concern was his size. and sure enough he missed 2 games (out of 12 thus far).

Throw in the fact he is still a bit limited throwing (no crossing patterns, no ins), and there is a chunk of fans who get mad and skeptical at anyone "hyped" by other fans and you have most of the concerns.

I think the "limited" concerns are a little short sighted. It took Drew Brees almost 3 full seasons to figure out how to throw "around and over" nfl linemen. You could argue Russel Wilson still doesn't know how to do it. I accepted he'd be limited in the passing game just due to the level of experience he was bringing into the season with him. But i've seen more growth in his first 10 games then i've see with EJ in 3 seasons.

The biggest concerns for me at the injury ones. I've seen enough growth in his game to be willing to take a shot at resigning him. I'm just worried he'll spend long periods of time out due to injury.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hopping on the 'Taylor is Franchise' wagon, but I'd like to see the pass chart from the Houston game...the eye
test appeared to me he was going over the middle in that game a lot more than he has in the past.

[mightysimi]

he's not Aaron Rodgers, and he's no Drew Brees. That's part of the problem. The other part is we've seen this show with RGIII, when a small running QB gets killed in the nfl and spends most of his career on IR. When Taylor won the starting job the biggest concern was his size. and sure enough he missed 2 games (out of 12 thus far).

Throw in the fact he is still a bit limited throwing (no crossing patterns, no ins), and there is a chunk of fans who get mad and skeptical at anyone "hyped" by other fans and you have most of the concerns.

I think the "limited" concerns are a little short sighted. It took Drew Brees almost 3 full seasons to figure out how to throw "around and over" nfl linemen. You could argue Russel Wilson still doesn't know how to do it. I accepted he'd be limited in the passing game just due to the level of experience he was bringing into the season with him. But i've seen more growth in his first 10 games then i've see with EJ in 3 seasons.

The biggest concerns for me at the injury ones. I've seen enough growth in his game to be willing to take a shot at resigning him. I'm just worried he'll spend long periods of time out due to injury.

That will always be the risk with smaller, more athletic QB's. He seems to not take big shots though. Hopefully he works out but personally I would rather it be Taylor than some unknown rookie in a 2 years from now. Taylor is a QB you can win with IMO.

[Northern Stampede]

I think Whaley has done a great job, and the best is yet to come!!

[justasportsfan]

If the Pegulas pick Rex over Whaley, we may be screwed for years to come.

I thought Idzyk was the problem at NYJ it's starting to look like Rexy was the problem. Look what he did to this team. Our front 7 went front potentially being the best in the NFL to average.

[EDS]

How can you not be impressed by the 6-7 team Whaley has built. He has accomplished so much . . .

[Typ0]

Makes no sense to me.

Let's take a look at his accomplishments:


Traded Kiko coming off a season long injury for one of the best RB's in the game
Re-signed Jerry Hughes which might have been the most un-classic-Bills-GM move in the past several decades. That was after the big investment on the DL.
Then turned around and extended Dareus which many thought we'd never pay for with, again, the huge investment already made on the DL
Drafted the best CB on this team who is up for DROY... in the 2nd round
Signed Tyrod Taylor who has played like the best Bills QB since Bledsoe... and out of literally nowhere. He signed a solid starting QB and the best one we've had in years... that alone deserves and extension
Drafted Miller in the 3rd round who has been a solid starter since day one
Drafted Karlos Williams in the 5th round
Signed Incognito who has been our best OL to a modest contract
Did NOT draft EJ
Traded picks to move up and get one of the most dynamic WR's in the game who has yet to even be fully used... blame Rex and Roman for that
Did not sign Byrd who got the huge money he wanted from NO and then has unperformed
Extended Aaron Williams to less than Byrd money who then went on to perform at an even higher level
Signed Clay to a contract Miami wouldn't match. Again, Rex and Roman are the ones not fully using him
Has spent cap money to sign, extend, and re-sign many players. Was not afraid to spend. And has kept us under the cap each year with no significant cap casualty cuts


And that's just recent

Yet some point to:

On the field play. What these players do on the field falls first and formeost on the coaches not GM
Hiring Rex. This is hilarious because Pegula made the choice. Rex reports directly to Pegula and not to Whaley by design. That's how Pegula wanted it remember?
Trading Cassel. This just in, Cassel sucks and has seriously sucked for Dallas. They probably gave him a gentlemen's agreement to let him go to try to catch on with another team since they wanted EJ as the backup. I have zero issue with Cassel being gone
Players getting injured. Flat out hillarious


The GM is supposed to find the talent and provide a good enough roster to compete at a playoff level. Whaley has done that. Rex and the coaches are the ones misusing the talent. He gave them Wegman's groceries and they are burning everything. This roster is the best it's been since the last time we went to the playoffs. Yet Rex, Roman, and Thurman can't manage to properly utilize their talents.

I like Whaley way more than any previous version at GM since Polian. It's ridiculous at best to blame Whaley for what Rex is doing with this team.

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water here. Whaley is just fine. I hope we extend him to a long deal.


3 years of this team being in the **** hole due to the QB position. His loyalty to Manual cost us a great deal this season as well. He should be sent packing along with the rest of the people left from the Wilson days...

[X-Era]

3 years of this team being in the **** hole due to the QB position. His loyalty to Manual cost us a great deal this season as well. He should be sent packing along with the rest of the people left from the Wilson days...
How did his loyalty to Manuel cost us? Are you implying Cassel would have done any better when Tyrod got hurt?

I don't like the Manuel pick now either. But they needed a QB and drafted the one they thought was the best. It turned out the whole class sucked. I don't blame him for trying. Nor do I blame him for Manuel sucking. The QB spot is a crap shoot and many may teams fail.

Being a part of drafting Manuel doesn't bother me about Whaley.