The Shiny New Toys

[YardRat]

2015 Shady McCoy-895 rush/292 pass/12 gp = 98.9 ypg avg ($13mil sb/$2.9mil salary)
2014 Fred Jackson-525 rush/501 pass/14 gp = 73.2 ypg avg ($2.6mil salary-2015)

2015 Charles Clay-51 rec/528 yds/3 tds ($10mil sb/$3mil salary)
2014 Scott Chandler-47 rec/497 yds/3 tds ($2.2mil salary-2015)

2015 Percy Harvin-19 rec/218 yds/1 td ($3mil sb/$2.9mil salary)
2014 Mike Williams-8 rec/142 yds/1 td($5.2mil salary)

2015 Tyrod Taylor-63.2 comp %/222.8 ypg/20 tds, 5 int/31 sacks ($2.15 sb/salary/inc)
2014 Kyle Orton-64.2 comp %/251.5 ypg/18 tds, 10 ints/33 sacks ($3mil sb/$5.4 salary)

Clay/Chandler are a wash statistically. Harvin and Williams are also, unless you consider 11 catches for 76 yards significant. Total ypg for RB's and QB's = a difference of (+25.7rb, -28.7qb) -3yards, virtually indistinguishable.

So we doled out $18.55 million dollars of real money for what? Nothing? A wash?

[Novacane]

The more things change the more they stay the same!

[stuckincincy]

[QUOTE=YardRat;4170774.

So we doled out $18.55 million dollars of real money for what? Nothing? A wash?[/QUOTE]

A wash...AND a haircut! :tip:

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I can agree that the Clay and McCoy contacts were ill advised, but this is some serious statistical cherry picking.

[YardRat]

I can agree that the Clay and McCoy contacts were ill advised, but this is some serious statistical cherry picking.

Why is it cherry-picking? Are there other relevant stats I should have used?

[justasportsfan]

At least we can't say the bills aren't trying or are cheap

[BillsImpossible]

Horrible contract!

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/lesean-mccoy/

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Why is it cherry-picking? Are there other relevant stats I should have used?

Well, for one you use per game stats for Jackson and McCoy, but not for Chandler/Clay and Harvin/Williams. Chandler played all 16 games whereas Clay accrued his in 13. Mike Williams was available for 9 games, Harvin for 5.

So roll that in and Clay was worth 40.6 Y/G and .23 TD/G, Chandler was worth 31.1 Y/G and .1875 TD/G

Harvin was worth 43.6 Y/G and .2 TD/G, Williams was worth 15.8 Y/G and .111 TD/G

So both Clay and Harvin were much better players this year on a per-game basis, but got injured. If you want to argue health is a skill, sure, but I'd note that Clay is 3 years younger then Chandler and Harvin's on a one year contract.

Also gonna note that McCoy had much better Y/Carry and Y/Reception then Jackson with fewer fumbles.

And that you ignored Tyrod's 450 rushing yards and 3 TDs vs. Orton's 10 yards and 1 TD, as well as the fact that he attempts and completes downfield throws at a much higher rate.

And that two of those guys are out of football entirely, and the other two have been reduced to bit players on otherwise far superior teams.

I guess my question would be, the offense has clearly improved, going from 21.4 PPG to 24.4 PPG. If you're going to claim that our leading rusher, receiver, and starting QB are "a wash" compared to 2014, how do you explain that? Keeping in mind that:
-Our kicker has gone into the toilet, costing us numerous scoring opportunities.
-Our defense has gone into the toilet, cratering our starting field position and giving us next to no short fields to convert.

As I said, the contracts for McCoy and Clay weren't good. Clay is maybe the 10th best TE in football being paid like the best, and I don't like big contracts for older halfbacks. But they have been a clear improvement over last year.

[Mace]

Even when we get shiny things they end up not being shiny. I give up on anything turning out right in my lifetime.

[Mace]

As I said, the contracts for McCoy and Clay weren't good. Clay is maybe the 10th best TE in football being paid like the best, and I don't like big contracts for older halfbacks. But they have been a clear improvement over last year.

I think it comes down to being less than a wash though. They improved positions, not the team. We won't be 9-7 again this year despite the shiny new toys.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I think it comes down to being less than a wash though. They improved positions, not the team. We won't be 9-7 again this year despite the shiny new toys.

That's on the defense IMO. The defense didn't need any talent, it was an elite unit and it completely collapsed this year. We've somehow mastered the blitzing defense that creates no pressure.

[YardRat]

Well, for one you use per game stats for Jackson and McCoy, but not for Chandler/Clay and Harvin/Williams. Chandler played all 16 games whereas Clay accrued his in 13. Mike Williams was available for 9 games, Harvin for 5.

I thought using per game was fair for FJax/McCoy considering they both missed time, and actually slanted stats in McCoy's favor considering FJax played almost nothing in a couple of games last season. Harvin/Williams is the best comparison between 2014/2015 considering Watkins, Woods and Hogan are still on the team. Again, 5 starts for Harvin compared to zero for Williams kind of evens that out.


So roll that in and Clay was worth 40.6 Y/G and .23 TD/G, Chandler was worth 31.1 Y/G and .1875 TD/G

.0525 TD's per game, or less thn 1 per season, is not significant, regardless of how it's broken down.


Harvin was worth 43.6 Y/G and .2 TD/G, Williams was worth 15.8 Y/G and .111 TD/G

Again, Harvin started all 5 games, Williams none. Depth chart and contribution-wise, insignificant.


So both Clay and Harvin were much better players this year on a per-game basis, but got injured. If you want to argue health is a skill, sure, but I'd note that Clay is 3 years younger then Chandler and Harvin's on a one year contract.

Clay hasn't outperformed Chandler to justify the acquisition, and Harvin was a waste of money, regardless of length of contract.


Also gonna note that McCoy had much better Y/Carry and Y/Reception then Jackson with fewer fumbles.


Duly noted.


And that you ignored Tyrod's 450 rushing yards and 3 TDs vs. Orton's 10 yards and 1 TD, as well as the fact that he attempts and completes downfield throws at a much higher rate.

Tyrod's rushing yards compared to Orton's are irrelevant...a QB gets paid to throw the ball, and lead the team. Not run. That's why we gave McCoy big money, to run the ball.


And that two of those guys are out of football entirely, and the other two have been reduced to bit players on otherwise far superior teams.

What they are doing now is irrelevant.


I guess my question would be, the offense has clearly improved, going from 21.4 PPG to 24.4 PPG. If you're going to claim that our leading rusher, receiver, and starting QB are "a wash" compared to 2014, how do you explain that? Keeping in mind that:
-Our kicker has gone into the toilet, costing us numerous scoring opportunities.
-Our defense has gone into the toilet, cratering our starting field position and giving us next to no short fields to convert.

As I said, the contracts for McCoy and Clay weren't good. Clay is maybe the 10th best TE in football being paid like the best, and I don't like big contracts for older halfbacks. But they have been a clear improvement over last year.

Buffalo is 16th in the league in ppg in 2015, compared to 18th in 2014. 2 spots up, in the middle of the pack, is insignificant and doesn't indicate a 'clear improvement', especially considering the dollars invested.

[Mace]

That's on the defense IMO. The defense didn't need any talent, it was an elite unit and it completely collapsed this year. We've somehow mastered the blitzing defense that creates no pressure.

Dunno. It's arguable, but a team that adds that much on offense should have won more games using it. They pout up a lot of garbage time stats. So then it's on the coaching staff, or it's on injuries.

In the end though they spent a lot of money and lost more games, so the bottom line is that it didn't win more games spending more money on upgrading positions.

[YardRat]

Pegula threw out the window an additional $18.8mil in cold hard cash and got results that amount to somewhere between nothing and barely negligible...and that's not even getting into wins and losses.

[Mace]

Pegula threw out the window an additional $18.8mil in cold hard cash and got results that amount to somewhere between nothing and barely negligible...and that's not even getting into wins and losses.

Same as he did with the Sabres at the start.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I thought using per game was fair for FJax/McCoy considering they both missed time, and actually slanted stats in McCoy's favor considering FJax played almost nothing in a couple of games last season. Harvin/Williams is the best comparison between 2014/2015 considering Watkins, Woods and Hogan are still on the team. Again, 5 starts for Harvin compared to zero for Williams kind of evens that out.

Williams was brought in to be the #2, same as Harvin. The fact that Williams couldn't make the field because he mentally checked out on football should matter when you compare them, no?


.0525 TD's per game, or less thn 1 per season, is not significant, regardless of how it's broken down.

Fair enough. I'll concede Chandler's size makes him a better red zone target regardless.


Clay hasn't outperformed Chandler to justify the acquisition, and Harvin was a waste of money, regardless of length of contract.

Harvin was a solid gamble and he's off the roster in two weeks.


Tyrod's rushing yards compared to Orton's are irrelevant...a QB gets paid to throw the ball, and lead the team. Not run. That's why we gave McCoy big money, to run the ball.

Ignoring stats you don't like is the definition of cherry picking. Roman's offense asks the QB to run frequently and uses the threat of the QB running to influence the defense.

Even ignoring that, Taylor throws more TDs and fewer picks.


What they are doing now is irrelevant.

Of course it's relevant. This question is about how Whaley spent money in the offseason. Two of those guys were already off the team and Jackson had aged his way out of a meaningful role in this offense.


Buffalo is 16th in the league in ppg in 2015, compared to 18th in 2014. 2 spots up, in the middle of the pack, is insignificant and doesn't indicate a 'clear improvement', especially considering the dollars invested.

Buffalo is 13th, not 16th. Don't forget that 4 teams have played their week 16 game already.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/points-per-game.

First off, 3 PPG is a significant improvement. The difference between us at 13th and the Bengals at 4th is less then 3 PPG. And it has happened despite the defense actively hindering the offense in 2015 rather than helping it as they did in 2014.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Dunno. It's arguable, but a team that adds that much on offense should have won more games using it. They pout up a lot of garbage time stats. So then it's on the coaching staff, or it's on injuries.

In the end though they spent a lot of money and lost more games, so the bottom line is that it didn't win more games spending more money on upgrading positions.

It is on the coaching staff, I absolutely blame Rex and the defensive staff for this season.

It was the utter failure of the defense that cost us this season.

[Mace]

It is on the coaching staff, I absolutely blame Rex and the defensive staff for this season.

It was the utter failure of the defense that cost us this season.

Can't argue the D was a crap, but the O was underwhelming for the money spent, and I'll always wonder if that money couldn't have been better spent. I just didn't see that offense come through much in the clutch. We got buck for the bang instead of bang for the buck imho.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Can't argue the D was a crap, but the O was underwhelming for the money spent, and I'll always wonder if that money couldn't have been better spent. I just didn't see that offense come through much in the clutch. We got buck for the bang instead of bang for the buck imho.

What would you expect from this offense?

[Mr. Pink]

The D being as poor as it has been has also helped the O gain more garbage time stats and points opportunities than it had in 2014, you can't overlook that part either. At least 14 points, 1 ppg, were due to that first New England debacle. Sure the offense still had to score those points but it's not like New England did much to stop them.

Another game like today will even out that PPG to be close to on par with last year as well.

For all the extra money shelled out on the offensive side of the ball, the results have been pretty insignificant.

[YardRat]

For that much additional money, I would expect better results, not the same.

Let's face it, this offense probably wouldn't be worse if we had kept Chandler and FJax, signed a cheaper street FA RB instead of Shady, signed a cheaper street FA instead of Harvin, and signed Taylor. If that money were put into the offensive line, the results might even be better.

The defense was a lost cause as soon as Wrecks signed the contract.

[Mace]

What would you expect from this offense?

More clutch play from pricey vets, and I don't think that's too much to ask. Score more points to win more games, I think that's the standard unless you want to spend that much to give guys a pass on scoring more and winning more for the money you pay them.

Was the money spent on McCoy, Clay and Harvin worth their stats. Nah. The expensive fullback ? Nah. Incognito absolutely. Tyrod, I'm mostly fine with if he could get thorough his presnap reads quicker. Keep in mind I'm not looking to compare them to the guys last year, no telling how that works. I'm just taking this team at face value.

Clay, McCoy and Harvin are more skilled players. But it didn't make a diff to spend on them. I'm not giving the staff or injuries a flyer. But I don't think getting shinier made us anything more than shinier.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The D being as poor as it has been has also helped the O gain more garbage time stats and points opportunities than it had in 2014, you can't overlook that part either. At least 14 points, 1 ppg, were due to that first New England debacle. Sure the offense still had to score those points but it's not like New England did much to stop them.

Another game like today will even out that PPG to be close to on par with last year as well.

For all the extra money shelled out on the offensive side of the ball, the results have been pretty insignificant.

Saying that a horrible defense actually improves an offense's stats is novel at least.

I think forcing an extra 10 turnovers and another 34 sacks is going to put your offense in a better position. For every game where Tyrod was able to drive on prevent D, I'd say Orton benefited from one where he had multiple starts inside enemy territory. Take, for example, the Jets game where we had three different drives that started inside New York's 20, leading to 17 points.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

For that much additional money, I would expect better results, not the same.

They aren't the same results.


Let's face it, this offense probably wouldn't be worse if we had kept Chandler and FJax, signed a cheaper street FA RB instead of Shady, signed a cheaper street FA instead of Harvin, and signed Taylor. If that money were put into the offensive line, the results might even be better.

No, I don't accept that the offense would have been exactly the same if you replaced our #1 tight and and #1 halfback with Scott Chandler and a street free agent (such as?)

I can get the frustration with this season, cut would you seriously trade the 2015 offense for the 2014 offense?

[Mr. Pink]

Saying that a horrible defense actually improves an offense's stats is novel at least.

I think forcing an extra 10 turnovers and another 34 sacks is going to put your offense in a better position. For every game where Tyrod was able to drive on prevent D, I'd say Orton benefited from one where he had multiple starts inside enemy territory. Take, for example, the Jets game where we had three different drives that started inside New York's 20, leading to 17 points.

The only game last year I can think of where a defense allowed the Bills garbage yards and points is the Raider game. Woods caught a TD with minimal time left. Doesn't mean it's the only game it occurred but teams going into prevent does play a role in scoring.

This year there was the Bengal game, both Pats games and Redskins game...so 27 free points that the team likely doesn't score if the opposing team gives a crap vs 7.

I will give this years offense one thing over last years by a landslide...the ability to connect on the big play.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

The only game last year I can think of where a defense allowed the Bills garbage yards and points is the Raider game. Woods caught a TD with minimal time left. Doesn't mean it's the only game it occurred but teams going into prevent does play a role in scoring.

This year there was the Bengal game, both Pats games and Redskins game...so 27 free points that the team likely doesn't score if the opposing team gives a crap vs 7.

I will give this years offense one thing over last years by a landslide...the ability to connect on the big play.

We went from the 25th ranked rushing offense to the #1 rush offense. I know you think the run game doesn't matter, but this was the expectation going into the season. The offense was going to be based around deep shots to Clay, Harvin, and Watkins and running with McCoy. The defense would be the strongest unit on the team and carry us when the offense failed.

The offense has held up its end of that bargain in most of the season, the defense has absolutely not.

Also FWIW, Buffalo is 27th in the league in spending on it's offense. It drops to 32nd next year even with McCoy and Clay.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/offense/

[Mace]

and a street free agent (such as?)

Darren McFadden, Frank Gore...

[IlluminatusUIUC]

Darren McFadden, Frank Gore...

Two halfbacks from significantly worse offenses?

[Mace]

Two halfbacks from significantly worse offenses?

They both have more rushing yards than McCoy this season and were considerably cheaper. That fulfills the requirement I think.

Edit : Sorry, Gore has 4 yards less.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

They both have more rushing yards than McCoy this season and were considerably cheaper. That fulfills the requirement I think.

Your requirement was that they win more games. Dallas has 4 wins, Indy has 7 and we've beaten both of them straight up.

[Mace]

Your requirement was that they win more games. Dallas has 4 wins, Indy has 7 and we've beaten both of them straight up.

I thought the requirement was better street FA's available for cheaper at the position of halfback from your post, Illumi. I'm not getting hyper and nagging at you.

There were FA rb options better than McCoy available for less.

[YardRat]

They aren't the same results.

Yeah, they pretty much are. The only significant upgrade is rushing yards by the QB, and if you look at total yards from scrimmage Orton's greater passing yards pretty much evens that out also.




No, I don't accept that the offense would have been exactly the same if you replaced our #1 tight and and #1 halfback with Scott Chandler and a street free agent (such as?)

I can get the frustration with this season, cut would you seriously trade the 2015 offense for the 2014 offense?

If FJax and Chandler were kept, Taylor was signed, and the exorbitant contracts given to Shady (to stop his whining), Clay (to pry him from Miami) and Harvin (maybe even include Felton, who really hasn't been worth it either) were spent more judiciously and on the offensive line, and Roman was still hired I would definitely take that option over this year's version.

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

Not looking at statistics and just the eye test, the offense is not a world beater but definitely feels overall improved from last year. If the 'elite d' held up its end of the bargain we would no question be in the playoff hunt today if not already clinched. The d lost the first pats game, the Giants game, arguably the jags game, the Chiefs game, the redskin game. Am I missing others?

[WagonCircler]

Pegula threw out the window an additional $18.8mil in cold hard cash and got results that amount to somewhere between nothing and barely negligible...and that's not even getting into wins and losses.

And he's re-upping the GM who created the whole mess.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

[kingJofNYC]

Money doesn't win you championships. You guys wanted money, you got money. Now enjoy watching it misspent.

[pmoon6]

2015 Shady McCoy-895 rush/292 pass/12 gp = 98.9 ypg avg ($13mil sb/$2.9mil salary)
2014 Fred Jackson-525 rush/501 pass/14 gp = 73.2 ypg avg ($2.6mil salary-2015)

2015 Charles Clay-51 rec/528 yds/3 tds ($10mil sb/$3mil salary)
2014 Scott Chandler-47 rec/497 yds/3 tds ($2.2mil salary-2015)

2015 Percy Harvin-19 rec/218 yds/1 td ($3mil sb/$2.9mil salary)
2014 Mike Williams-8 rec/142 yds/1 td($5.2mil salary)

2015 Tyrod Taylor-63.2 comp %/222.8 ypg/20 tds, 5 int/31 sacks ($2.15 sb/salary/inc)
2014 Kyle Orton-64.2 comp %/251.5 ypg/18 tds, 10 ints/33 sacks ($3mil sb/$5.4 salary)

Clay/Chandler are a wash statistically. Harvin and Williams are also, unless you consider 11 catches for 76 yards significant. Total ypg for RB's and QB's = a difference of (+25.7rb, -28.7qb) -3yards, virtually indistinguishable.

So we doled out $18.55 million dollars of real money for what? Nothing? A wash?You're not factoring in how many games were played by some. I believe Chandler played all season, Clay has missed a few games. Same with McCoy/Jackson although Freddie was hurt too.

I think we should have kept Chandler and Freddie, but here's what I think about some coaches. They tend to want to get rid of team leaders from a former regime or an older era and replace them with their guys or younger leaders. The basic dismissal of Fred Smerlas comes to mind.

You also can't make a valid comparison considering all the new players coming into a new system with new coaches.

[Mace]

Not looking at statistics and just the eye test, the offense is not a world beater but definitely feels overall improved from last year. If the 'elite d' held up its end of the bargain we would no question be in the playoff hunt today if not already clinched. The d lost the first pats game, the Giants game, arguably the jags game, the Chiefs game, the redskin game. Am I missing others?

Nah, but the offense only put up 10 on the worst defense (Giants), 14 on the 15th, (win), 20 on the 29th. Two games with the offense outdoing the 32nd and 29th defenses would have put us at 9-6 heading into the last week, or musters a drive against New England we're 10-5, that's bang for the buck.

[cookie G]

If you want to complain about paying $2 million for a QB that produced 23 TD's/7 TO's and averaged 251 yards passing/rushing in 13 games...more power to you. Considering that most NFL teams now have starting QB's of over 12 million a year, he was a bargain. Want to ***** on wasting $2 million, ***** about Cassel.

The only one Id complain about is Harvin, but that's because he was a PITA on every team he was on.

I wasn't big on the size of clay's contract but I think he can end up being more productive.

If you're going to be a ground and pound team and lead the NFL in rushing attempts, I wouldn't expect your team to be with the leaders in terms of offense.

But they improved from 26th in yards gained to 13th, and improved to 13th in points scored.

This isn't the reason they've missed the playoffs, yet again.

[Mace]

If you want to complain about paying $2 million for a QB that produced 23 TD's/7 TO's and averaged 251 yards passing/rushing in 13 games...more power to you. Considering that most NFL teams now have starting QB's of over 12 million a year, he was a bargain. Want to ***** on wasting $2 million, ***** about Cassel.

The only one Id complain about is Harvin, but that's because he was a PITA on every team he was on.

I wasn't big on the size of clay's contract but I think he can end up being more productive.

If you're going to be a ground and pound team and lead the NFL in rushing attempts, I wouldn't expect your team to be with the leaders in terms of offense.

But they improved from 26th in yards gained to 13th, and improved to 13th in points scored.

This isn't the reason they've missed the playoffs, yet again.

Well, excluding Taylor, I'm fine with him anyway, say you spend cheaper on McFadden or Gore. Saves you money, get Royal instead of Harvin. You can sign Iupati, and a right tackle, say maybe Oher or Barksdale that will buy you drafts to get younger. Skip Cassel, might have enough money to trade for Barnidge from a desperate Cleveland if you throw in Gragg. You aren't really using the pricey fullback so plumb for some defensive depth, maybe Leonhard who you won't play much but can teach and guide.

If that roster doesn't get you to the playoffs, you still wouldn't be in the playoffs anyway with not worst than the same problems.

Maybe this maybe that, but I don't think this pricey offense has shown it can steamroller teams well enough to not worry about how rebuilding the defense will go. It still got better at positions and not necessarily the right ones imho. Less pricey nuts and bolts hires would have carried us just as far, and we could have made more of them.

[YardRat]

I'm Ok with signing Taylor, and agree the Cassel hassle is a bigger deal to ***** about. There really wasn't much else that could have been done at that position.

McCoy is a slight upgrade in stats, huge downgrade in leadership. Should've kept FJax and shipped Kiko out for an olineman instead.
Harvin was a waste of time, money and effort. Big mistake.
Clay and Chandler, performance-wise, is a wash. The contract $'s are not.

The bottom line is the defense may have been fubared, but the money blown on the skill positions was very poorly spent with negligible, at best, results.

[pmoon6]

If you want to complain about paying $2 million for a QB that produced 23 TD's/7 TO's and averaged 251 yards passing/rushing in 13 games...more power to you. Considering that most NFL teams now have starting QB's of over 12 million a year, he was a bargain. Want to ***** on wasting $2 million, ***** about Cassel.

The only one Id complain about is Harvin, but that's because he was a PITA on every team he was on.

I wasn't big on the size of clay's contract but I think he can end up being more productive.

If you're going to be a ground and pound team and lead the NFL in rushing attempts, I wouldn't expect your team to be with the leaders in terms of offense.

But they improved from 26th in yards gained to 13th, and improved to 13th in points scored.

This isn't the reason they've missed the playoffs, yet again.Well, we all know why we didn't make the playoffs. Rexy took a top 5 defense and turned it into a bottom 10 defense.

For that reason alone he should be fired and I was never one to want a coach fired until he was given adequate time to get things going.

- - - Updated - - -


If you want to complain about paying $2 million for a QB that produced 23 TD's/7 TO's and averaged 251 yards passing/rushing in 13 games...more power to you. Considering that most NFL teams now have starting QB's of over 12 million a year, he was a bargain. Want to ***** on wasting $2 million, ***** about Cassel.

The only one Id complain about is Harvin, but that's because he was a PITA on every team he was on.

I wasn't big on the size of clay's contract but I think he can end up being more productive.

If you're going to be a ground and pound team and lead the NFL in rushing attempts, I wouldn't expect your team to be with the leaders in terms of offense.

But they improved from 26th in yards gained to 13th, and improved to 13th in points scored.

This isn't the reason they've missed the playoffs, yet again.Well, we all know why we didn't make the playoffs. Rexy took a top 5 defense and turned it into a bottom 10 defense.

For that reason alone he should be fired and I was never one to want a coach fired until he was given adequate time to get things going.

[Mace]

Well, we all know why we didn't make the playoffs. Rexy took a top 5 defense and turned it into a bottom 10 defense.

For that reason alone he should be fired and I was never one to want a coach fired until he was given adequate time to get things going.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, we all know why we didn't make the playoffs. Rexy took a top 5 defense and turned it into a bottom 10 defense.

For that reason alone he should be fired and I was never one to want a coach fired until he was given adequate time to get things going.

Well, we all know why we didn't make the playoffs. Rexy took a top 5 defense and turned it into a bottom 10 defense.

For that reason alone he should be fired and I was never one to want a coach fired until he was given adequate time to get things going.

[WagonCircler]

2015 Shady McCoy-895 rush/292 pass/12 gp = 98.9 ypg avg ($13mil sb/$2.9mil salary)
2014 Fred Jackson-525 rush/501 pass/14 gp = 73.2 ypg avg ($2.6mil salary-2015)

2015 Charles Clay-51 rec/528 yds/3 tds ($10mil sb/$3mil salary)
2014 Scott Chandler-47 rec/497 yds/3 tds ($2.2mil salary-2015)

2015 Percy Harvin-19 rec/218 yds/1 td ($3mil sb/$2.9mil salary)
2014 Mike Williams-8 rec/142 yds/1 td($5.2mil salary)

2015 Tyrod Taylor-63.2 comp %/222.8 ypg/20 tds, 5 int/31 sacks ($2.15 sb/salary/inc)
2014 Kyle Orton-64.2 comp %/251.5 ypg/18 tds, 10 ints/33 sacks ($3mil sb/$5.4 salary)

Clay/Chandler are a wash statistically. Harvin and Williams are also, unless you consider 11 catches for 76 yards significant. Total ypg for RB's and QB's = a difference of (+25.7rb, -28.7qb) -3yards, virtually indistinguishable.

So we doled out $18.55 million dollars of real money for what? Nothing? A wash?

This is the post of the year.

Seriously.

[cookie G]

Well, excluding Taylor, I'm fine with him anyway, say you spend cheaper on McFadden or Gore. Saves you money, get Royal instead of Harvin. You can sign Iupati, and a right tackle, say maybe Oher or Barksdale that will buy you drafts to get younger. Skip Cassel, might have enough money to trade for Barnidge from a desperate Cleveland if you throw in Gragg. You aren't really using the pricey fullback so plumb for some defensive depth, maybe Leonhard who you won't play much but can teach and guide.

If that roster doesn't get you to the playoffs, you still wouldn't be in the playoffs anyway with not worst than the same problems.

Maybe this maybe that, but I don't think this pricey offense has shown it can steamroller teams well enough to not worry about how rebuilding the defense will go. It still got better at positions and not necessarily the right ones imho. Less pricey nuts and bolts hires would have carried us just as far, and we could have made more of them.

McFadden had moderate success running behind the best OL in the NFL. This is his 1st year in the past 4 that he's averaged for over 3.5 ypc. Its possible, but I'm not sure he has much success behind the Bills' Oline.

that said, you always get raised eyebrows for giving a RB a monster contract.

Failing to sign Harvin doesn't get you Iupati. He signed a 1 year contract vs. a 5 year, 40 million for Iupati. That's a bit of apples and oranges. Oher is a little different..his money is a lot less...but he was by no means a sure shot to succeed in Carolina. He really washed out, even as a RT, in Baltimore and didn't redeem himself too much in Tennessee. He was a far riskier signing for Carolina than they get credit. It seems to have worked out for them.
But yes, signing a RT instead of Harvin is something I would have loved.

As far as Clay goes, I don't think the final chapter has been written.

On the other hand, take note of Illuminatus pointing out tha despite these signings..they still are 27th in the NFL for spending on the offensive side of the ball.

Or we could go back to the Buddy days of a receiving corps consisting of UDFA's and a 7th rounder.

[YardRat]

Or we could go back to the Buddy days of a receiving corps consisting of UDFA's and a 7th rounder.

We have a first round pick, a second round pick, a fourth round special teamer and a third round china doll amongst a bunch of UDFA's and over-signing a over-hyped, oft-injured malcontent didn't change that at all. I'm not saying we shouldn't have signed a FA WR, we just shouldn't have thrown all of that money Harvin's way.

If Whaley wants to gamble, he's far better off gambling on guys like Incognito and Oher, especially considering the state of the offensive line last season.

[Mace]

McFadden had moderate success running behind the best OL in the NFL. This is his 1st year in the past 4 that he's averaged for over 3.5 ypc. Its possible, but I'm not sure he has much success behind the Bills' Oline.

that said, you always get raised eyebrows for giving a RB a monster contract.

Failing to sign Harvin doesn't get you Iupati. He signed a 1 year contract vs. a 5 year, 40 million for Iupati. That's a bit of apples and oranges. Oher is a little different..his money is a lot less...but he was by no means a sure shot to succeed in Carolina. He really washed out, even as a RT, in Baltimore and didn't redeem himself too much in Tennessee. He was a far riskier signing for Carolina than they get credit. It seems to have worked out for them.
But yes, signing a RT instead of Harvin is something I would have loved.

As far as Clay goes, I don't think the final chapter has been written.

On the other hand, take note of Illuminatus pointing out tha despite these signings..they still are 27th in the NFL for spending on the offensive side of the ball.

Or we could go back to the Buddy days of a receiving corps consisting of UDFA's and a 7th rounder.

Thing is though, do you really think all that offense made us a juggernaut. It just didn't. You spend that much in a season on a unit you expect to be a juggernaut. I don't really think you think they were worth all that either, because you can see as clear as I do they weren't, though you're hoping for the best next year as much as I do. McCoy is aging, missed a lot of time, Harvin was brittle to begin with, Clay was looked at as achy and was. Do you spend that much for 7-8 games a season ?

I don't. And I know no one much does though everyone wants to dream.

They aren't that good, you spend that much and get that many shinies you expect some good unless you spent on the wrong shinies. I'm not trying to be a jerk but come on. That much offense didn't roll up 2-3 more wins like you'd think. They don't even look that scary.

I don't know how you defend that, it didn't work and cost a lot of money to not work, and you already knew it couldn't without a miracle.

[pmoon6]

Thing is though, do you really think all that offense made us a juggernaut. It just didn't. You spend that much in a season on a unit you expect to be a juggernaut. I don't really think you think they were worth all that either, because you can see as clear as I do they weren't, though you're hoping for the best next year as much as I do. McCoy is aging, missed a lot of time, Harvin was brittle to begin with, Clay was looked at as achy and was. Do you spend that much for 7-8 games a season ?

I don't. And I know no one much does though everyone wants to dream.

They aren't that good, you spend that much and get that many shinies you expect some good unless you spent on the wrong shinies. I'm not trying to be a jerk but come on. That much offense didn't roll up 2-3 more wins like you'd think. They don't even look that scary.

I don't know how you defend that, it didn't work and cost a lot of money to not work, and you already knew it couldn't without a miracle.The offense was just put together in the offseason with a QB that barely played before this year and you expect it to be a "juggernaut" right out of the gate?

Bills Fans are so starved for a winner it's affected their minds, if any of them had one in the first place. You seemed to have misplaced yours, find it before you make yourself look more ridiculous than usual.

[YardRat]

The offense was just put together in the offseason with a QB that barely played before this year and you expect it to be a "juggernaut" right out of the gate?

Bills Fans are so starved for a winner it's affected their minds, if any of them had one in the first place. You seemed to have misplaced yours, find it before you make yourself look more ridiculous than usual.

All season long last year it was obvious to everybody how pathetic the offense was, and the general consensus was all we needed to do was get a QB, a real offensive coordinator, and fix the oline to see some real improvement. We got a different QB (one that apparently most feel is an upgrade over Orton/Manuel, so that's a plus)...we got a real offensive coordinator (which is a plus)...and we got a cheap, risky FA and a third round pick for the oline PLUS a 'huge bonus' of spending like drunken sailors (pretty literally in the case of Shady and how he was acquired) and the net result is not much different from last year. Maybe 'juggernaut' is slightly hyperbolic, but considering the money spent on toys this offseason it certainly isn't unreasonable to expect results that are more significant than we received.

[BoyILuvLoznStupidly]

I'm Ok with signing Taylor, and agree the Cassel hassle is a bigger deal to ***** about. There really wasn't much else that could have been done at that position.

McCoy is a slight upgrade in stats, huge downgrade in leadership. Should've kept FJax and shipped Kiko out for an olineman instead.
Harvin was a waste of time, money and effort. Big mistake.
Clay and Chandler, performance-wise, is a wash. The contract $'s are not.

The bottom line is the defense may have been fubared, but the money blown on the skill positions was very poorly spent with negligible, at best, results.




That is not entirely true, you have not taken into account run blocking...

[Ginger Vitis]

The offense was just put together in the offseason with a QB that barely played before this year and you expect it to be a "juggernaut" right out of the gate?



It has happened.. "The greatest show on turf"

[WagonCircler]

If you want to complain about paying $2 million for a QB that produced 23 TD's/7 TO's and averaged 251 yards passing/rushing in 13 games...more power to you. Considering that most NFL teams now have starting QB's of over 12 million a year, he was a bargain..

Well, as long as he was a bargain.

I forget sometimes that the real goal is the profit margin.

[The Jokeman]

McFadden had moderate success running behind the best OL in the NFL. This is his 1st year in the past 4 that he's averaged for over 3.5 ypc. Its possible, but I'm not sure he has much success behind the Bills' Oline.

that said, you always get raised eyebrows for giving a RB a monster contract.

Failing to sign Harvin doesn't get you Iupati. He signed a 1 year contract vs. a 5 year, 40 million for Iupati. That's a bit of apples and oranges. Oher is a little different..his money is a lot less...but he was by no means a sure shot to succeed in Carolina. He really washed out, even as a RT, in Baltimore and didn't redeem himself too much in Tennessee. He was a far riskier signing for Carolina than they get credit. It seems to have worked out for them.
But yes, signing a RT instead of Harvin is something I would have loved.

As far as Clay goes, I don't think the final chapter has been written.

On the other hand, take note of Illuminatus pointing out tha despite these signings..they still are 27th in the NFL for spending on the offensive side of the ball.

Or we could go back to the Buddy days of a receiving corps consisting of UDFA's and a 7th rounder.

Let's not forget that before landing Harvin we threw more money at Bulaga than the Packers were giving him but he turned us down. So I think there's a chance Whaley could pursue an UFA O-lineman this offseason when Harvin gets cut.

[colin]

i like who we have on O, just need a better RT or RG, a back up QB, and one big WR. we can easily be the top rushing O again and put up more points with another year in the system and tyrod playing to get a ~100MM contract.

i'm not happy how the year went either, but there is no way the blow out the coach and gm after one single season, and i think we will either replace mario with wilkerson, or sign a JAG DE and get a solid NT and LBs.

[cookie G]

Thing is though, do you really think all that offense made us a juggernaut. It just didn't. You spend that much in a season on a unit you expect to be a juggernaut. I don't really think you think they were worth all that either, because you can see as clear as I do they weren't, though you're hoping for the best next year as much as I do. McCoy is aging, missed a lot of time, Harvin was brittle to begin with, Clay was looked at as achy and was. Do you spend that much for 7-8 games a season ?

I don't. And I know no one much does though everyone wants to dream.

They aren't that good, you spend that much and get that many shinies you expect some good unless you spent on the wrong shinies. I'm not trying to be a jerk but come on. That much offense didn't roll up 2-3 more wins like you'd think. They don't even look that scary.

I don't know how you defend that, it didn't work and cost a lot of money to not work, and you already knew it couldn't without a miracle.


I'm ..um...not sure why you were expecting a juggernaut..

The team had half an offensive line and as Moonie said, not only were they missing a franchise QB, they were going into preseason without a definitive starter..

Second..and maybe more importantly, people were expecting some type of San Francisco clone for the offense...

Run first, "ground and pound", make few mistakes, control the clock.

Guess what? That's what you got.

Compare the Bills 2015 numbers with SF when they were good...and went to the SB. They aren't far off.

Too bad their defense wasn't the SF defense, or even the Buffalo defense of 2014.

In terms of "all of this money"...they rank about 16th in the league in spending on WR's and TE's. Some teams spend twice as much on their receiving corps.

They rank about 8th in spending on RB. They also finished no. 1 in the league by a wide margin, not only in yards, but ypc.

The problem is, Buffalo has been for many years a defense spending franchise. Changing the scheme every 2 years does that.

Its been a team willing to spend $5 million a year on a nickel back or a below average LB. But God help us if they actually try to get weapons on the offense for that price.

For the first time in a long time, they are starting to catch up to the rest of the league in spending on the offensive side of the ball. They aren't there yet, but getting there. It seems like astronomical figures to people...but that's what the rest of the league has been spending.

I just don't know why people expected they would become the Patriots offense or the Saints offense

- - - Updated - - -


Well, as long as he was a bargain.

I forget sometimes that the real goal is the profit margin.

Im sorry Matt Cassel was traded for a can of Bush' Baked Beans.

But the Bills got the better end of the bargain.

[pmoon6]

It has happened.. "The greatest show on turf"Wow, you got me there.

It happened once in 10,000 times.

[Mace]

I'm ..um...not sure why you were expecting a juggernaut..

Well ok, "juggernaut" was a dumb word to use, makes you think of well, a juggernaut, I admit it. "More formidable".

For the 4th highest paid RB (who won't get to 1,000 yards), 2nd highest paid fullback who doesn't play much, 4th highest paid TE, elite 1st round talent at one WR, and 6 million worth of slot receiver, I'm just not seeing a lot of bang for the buck atm. They still scored 10 on the 32nd ranked defense, 13 on the 15th, and 20 on the 30th, are incapable of hurry up, and telegraph their silent count. I didn't see them looking too formidable on any consistent basis for that money. Those guys besides Watkins are vets who should have a shorter learning curve.

Heading into next year we still have only parts of an offensive line, a maybe QB with durability questions, and will start next year with a multitude of passing weapons for a rushing offense.

Granted there is a learning curve. But by the last game you should see familiarity, a pattern and a rhythm I just don't see.

I still believe nothing much changed. We have a maybe QB (no helping that, granted), a bunch of skill players we can't entirely use, and might well be brittle, still need OL help, and need to learn to play with the big kids.

I still think clear as day, the spent too much on upgrading skill positions and neglecting the foundation and that will make this lead nowhere. You know as well as I do, and we've argued this before with me actually coming around to your viewpoint, that you only spend on the skill players after you have solid foundation in the trenches. And going into next year, I don't think we do, and wonder if you do ?

[Albany,n.y.]

How about the stats the replaced players had THIS SEASON-not so hot!
Fred Jackson 26 rushes 100 yds 0 tds, rec. 31 251 yds 2tds
Chandler 23 rec. 259 yds 4tds
Williams-NADA
Orton-quit NADA

[OpIv37]

2015 Shady McCoy-895 rush/292 pass/12 gp = 98.9 ypg avg ($13mil sb/$2.9mil salary)
2014 Fred Jackson-525 rush/501 pass/14 gp = 73.2 ypg avg ($2.6mil salary-2015)

2015 Charles Clay-51 rec/528 yds/3 tds ($10mil sb/$3mil salary)
2014 Scott Chandler-47 rec/497 yds/3 tds ($2.2mil salary-2015)

2015 Percy Harvin-19 rec/218 yds/1 td ($3mil sb/$2.9mil salary)
2014 Mike Williams-8 rec/142 yds/1 td($5.2mil salary)

2015 Tyrod Taylor-63.2 comp %/222.8 ypg/20 tds, 5 int/31 sacks ($2.15 sb/salary/inc)
2014 Kyle Orton-64.2 comp %/251.5 ypg/18 tds, 10 ints/33 sacks ($3mil sb/$5.4 salary)

Clay/Chandler are a wash statistically. Harvin and Williams are also, unless you consider 11 catches for 76 yards significant. Total ypg for RB's and QB's = a difference of (+25.7rb, -28.7qb) -3yards, virtually indistinguishable.

So we doled out $18.55 million dollars of real money for what? Nothing? A wash?

I hate to say I told you so.... Oh wait, no I don't. I told you so.

It's the same mistake Pegula made with the Sabres. Remember, he's just an average fan with one exception: he has the money to buy the teams. He doesn't have any more hockey or football knowledge than we do, and one could make a very strong case that he knows less than many of us. And as we've seen on this board time and time again, average fans buy into the front office bull****.

He spent big on fancy new toys because of the Sabres, and it led to two years of mediocrity and two utter debacles before the team is finally going in the right direction.

He made the same exactl mistakes with the Bills.

[sukie]

I like the fact the Bills now have players that will be selected in the first part of fantasy drafts all across this great land.

It's not a crap shoot selecting Shady high... or Watkins or even Clay.

Before ttis year... Bills players were round 13 or later filler.

[Mace]

I like the fact the Bills now have players that will be selected in the first part of fantasy drafts all across this great land.

It's not a crap shoot selecting Shady high... or Watkins or even Clay.

Before ttis year... Bills players were round 13 or later filler.

Continuing the positive note, they're a very well barbered stylish group of athletes as well, reflecting positively on the fashion sense of lower rung Buffalo personal appearance consensus with those in the know.

[cookie G]

Well ok, "juggernaut" was a dumb word to use, makes you think of well, a juggernaut, I admit it. "More formidable".

For the 4th highest paid RB (who won't get to 1,000 yards), 2nd highest paid fullback who doesn't play much, 4th highest paid TE, elite 1st round talent at one WR, and 6 million worth of slot receiver, I'm just not seeing a lot of bang for the buck atm. They still scored 10 on the 32nd ranked defense, 13 on the 15th, and 20 on the 30th, are incapable of hurry up, and telegraph their silent count. I didn't see them looking too formidable on any consistent basis for that money. Those guys besides Watkins are vets who should have a shorter learning curve.

Heading into next year we still have only parts of an offensive line, a maybe QB with durability questions, and will start next year with a multitude of passing weapons for a rushing offense.

Granted there is a learning curve. But by the last game you should see familiarity, a pattern and a rhythm I just don't see.

I still believe nothing much changed. We have a maybe QB (no helping that, granted), a bunch of skill players we can't entirely use, and might well be brittle, still need OL help, and need to learn to play with the big kids.

I still think clear as day, the spent too much on upgrading skill positions and neglecting the foundation and that will make this lead nowhere. You know as well as I do, and we've argued this before with me actually coming around to your viewpoint, that you only spend on the skill players after you have solid foundation in the trenches. And going into next year, I don't think we do, and wonder if you do ?

Again, I'm not sure what you were expecting from the running game, but this is the most they've gained on the ground since the TT era.

And it was done with a 5.0 ypc
And it was done by the big play...19 carries of 20+ yards.

The Bills have burned through lots of No. 1 picks for RBs in the past. They never quite gained this many yards...

As far as the passing game, of course it needs room for improvement. But there is something to build on...more than I'll say in prior years.

I still would be drafting a QB
I would still definitely be building teh Oline.

Priority A and priority B.

On the line..across the board, each one is a better run blocker than a pass blocker, save possibly Glenn. Pass blocking in the right side is well below NFL level.

Miller is a good run blocker with hints of very good. His pass blocking is below NFL level. If it doesn't improve, he's in trouble. He has a habit of setting his feet in concrete and slugging it out at the LOS. That can work in college, but it won't with the better rushers in the NFL. I still have hopes, but I also keep looking.

Henderson didn't improve and I doubt he will. i just don't see it. If there isn't a QB worht taking in the 1st, RT is my preference.

I would have like Kujo to work out..but I always saw it as taking a chance on a guy with red flags. I kind of hoped he'd be an Andre Smith, but he hasn't.

I'll say this about Kujo...he could be the 2nd best run blocker on the team, and I'm glad Roman gets him in there on occasion. But his pass blocking is so bad, especially his first step off the ball,...that you can't leave him in full time.

[Mace]

Again, I'm not sure what you were expecting from the running game, but this is the most they've gained on the ground since the TT era.

And it was done with a 5.0 ypc
And it was done by the big play...19 carries of 20+ yards.

The Bills have burned through lots of No. 1 picks for RBs in the past. They never quite gained this many yards...

As far as the passing game, of course it needs room for improvement. But there is something to build on...more than I'll say in prior years.

I still would be drafting a QB
I would still definitely be building teh Oline.

Priority A and priority B.

On the line..across the board, each one is a better run blocker than a pass blocker, save possibly Glenn. Pass blocking in the right side is well below NFL level.

Miller is a good run blocker with hints of very good. His pass blocking is below NFL level. If it doesn't improve, he's in trouble. He has a habit of setting his feet in concrete and slugging it out at the LOS. That can work in college, but it won't with the better rushers in the NFL. I still have hopes, but I also keep looking.

Henderson didn't improve and I doubt he will. i just don't see it. If there isn't a QB worht taking in the 1st, RT is my preference.

I would have like Kujo to work out..but I always saw it as taking a chance on a guy with red flags. I kind of hoped he'd be an Andre Smith, but he hasn't.

I'll say this about Kujo...he could be the 2nd best run blocker on the team, and I'm glad Roman gets him in there on occasion. But his pass blocking is so bad, especially his first step off the ball,...that you can't leave him in full time.

I'm not really sure what I'm expecting any more either, Cookie. Maybe I'm over aggravated at this season. But you didn't answer my question. Do you think we have enough solid foundation in the trenches to dork around with pricey skill players ? hey give us a marginal gain that didn't translate to wins and losses in the modern game, does it last ?

I just don't think we're all that much better heading into next season, and wonder who does. When they stack that box and Taylor goes down do we win that many more games on a good rushing offense for playoffs while rebuilding the trenches ? Or a couple more years but we had some exciting moments on offense so be happy.

I dunno.

[cookie G]

I'm not really sure what I'm expecting any more either, Cookie. Maybe I'm over aggravated at this season. But you didn't answer my question. Do you think we have enough solid foundation in the trenches to dork around with pricey skill players ? hey give us a marginal gain that didn't translate to wins and losses in the modern game, does it last ?

I just don't think we're all that much better heading into next season, and wonder who does. When they stack that box and Taylor goes down do we win that many more games on a good rushing offense for playoffs while rebuilding the trenches ? Or a couple more years but we had some exciting moments on offense so be happy.

I dunno.

As far as the toys vs. solid foundation argument...its a bit of a wishy washy answer.

Both can be built in conjunction with each other.

Do I think Whaley emphasized weaponry over the line? Oh yeah...but on the other hand..he didn't ignore it completely like Buddy Nix did. (In Buddy's 4 drafts he used 1 draft pick higher than a low end 4th on a lineman, that was Glenn. That's 1 out of 16).

Would I have put more emphasis on the OL..yes. Like everyone else, I wasn't a big fan of the Watkins trade, if you consider how much you gave up. I don't know if Megatron is worth 2 no. 1 picks when you don't ahve a QB and a shaky OL.

Would I have preferred a RT over Percy Harvin? Yes..without a doubt. Provided you can get someone on a 1 year $6 million deal.

For Clay? A tougher choice. 1) I'm actually pretty impressed with Clay's athleticism, and have said, I don't think the final chapter has been writtten on him yet. 2) An athletic TE is another area this team has lacked in like, forever.
Would 2 solid linemen, on the right side have been better? Probably. I'm sure if I was GM, I would have.

As far as this season goes...did the weaponry keep us out of the playoffs? Nope...no doubt in my mind. Rex's ego in turning the defense into a pussy cat, and his failure to fix his error early on, doomed this team.

I will say, in the longer term...with Glenn and Incognito needing to be re-signed...keeping them on the team is like signing 2 FA's, based on what they have been paid, and what the will be eventually paid.

So it is essentially like now having to pay for/draft 3 new linemen instead of 1.

And if Rex has any say in FA'cyh or the draft, you can kiss the ifrst 4 draft picks goodbye.

[Mace]

As far as the toys vs. solid foundation argument...its a bit of a wishy washy answer.

Both can be built in conjunction with each other.

Do I think Whaley emphasized weaponry over the line? Oh yeah...but on the other hand..he didn't ignore it completely like Buddy Nix did. (In Buddy's 4 drafts he used 1 draft pick higher than a low end 4th on a lineman, that was Glenn. That's 1 out of 16).

Would I have put more emphasis on the OL..yes. Like everyone else, I wasn't a big fan of the Watkins trade, if you consider how much you gave up. I don't know if Megatron is worth 2 no. 1 picks when you don't ahve a QB and a shaky OL.

Would I have preferred a RT over Percy Harvin? Yes..without a doubt. Provided you can get someone on a 1 year $6 million deal.

For Clay? A tougher choice. 1) I'm actually pretty impressed with Clay's athleticism, and have said, I don't think the final chapter has been writtten on him yet. 2) An athletic TE is another area this team has lacked in like, forever.
Would 2 solid linemen, on the right side have been better? Probably. I'm sure if I was GM, I would have.

As far as this season goes...did the weaponry keep us out of the playoffs? Nope...no doubt in my mind. Rex's ego in turning the defense into a pussy cat, and his failure to fix his error early on, doomed this team.

I will say, in the longer term...with Glenn and Incognito needing to be re-signed...keeping them on the team is like signing 2 FA's, based on what they have been paid, and what the will be eventually paid.

So it is essentially like now having to pay for/draft 3 new linemen instead of 1.

And if Rex has any say in FA'cyh or the draft, you can kiss the ifrst 4 draft picks goodbye.

Wishy washy is fine. You don't know, same as I don't. You're more positive, I'm feeling more negative. We'll hammer it out next season. On to the draft.