The argument for Whaley and Ryan....

[HHURRICANE]

Let me say that I predicted an 8-8 to 12-4 season. The prospect of finishing 7-9 was not on my list of possibilities.

The gimmick play offense, regressed defense, and an over penalized team squarely fall on coaching.

With the obvious stated let me make a case:

1) Whaley had another great draft. Williams, Miller, Darby...say what you want but Whaley can pick players.

2) Rex didn't make the same bone headed decisions on challenges and calls that have plagued us with first time coaches in years past. It was nice to not scream at the TV over a challenge.

3) I blame the Pegulas more than Rex on the defense. Unless they said Rex don't change the D it's almost impossible to assume he wouldn't. I know if I changed companies I would run it the way I've done with success previously.

4) This really wasn't a playoff team. And if not for Rex we wouldn't even have a serviceable QB. Let's not forget Tyrod is here because of Rex. Look at Dallas with and without Romo.

5) Adding new coaches, schemes, and ownership is a lot to overcome in one year. It rarely happens. The Jets certainly are a nice argument to this point but in reality it usually doesn't happen right a way. Marv had Bruce and Jim Kelly and it took more than a year or two with Polian upstairs.

[DraftBoy]

Let me say that I predicted an 8-8 to 12-4 season. The prospect of finishing 7-9 was not on my list of possibilities.

The gimmick play offense, regressed defense, and an over penalized team squarely fall on coaching.

With the obvious stated let me make a case:

1) Whaley had another great draft. Williams, Miller, Darby...say what you want but Whaley can pick players.

2) Rex didn't make the same bone headed decisions on challenges and calls that have plagued us with first time coaches in years past. It was nice to not scream at the TV over a challenge.

3) I blame the Pegulas more than Rex on the defense. Unless they said Rex don't change the D it's almost impossible to assume he wouldn't. I know if I changed companies I would run it the way I've done with success previously.

4) This really wasn't a playoff team. And if not for Rex we wouldn't even have a serviceable QB. Let's not forget Tyrod is here because of Rex. Look at Dallas with and without Romo.

5) Adding new coaches, schemes, and ownership is a lot to overcome in one year. It rarely happens. The Jets certainly are a nice argument to this point but in reality it usually doesn't happen right a way. Marv had Bruce and Jim Kelly and it took more than a year or two with Polian upstairs.

You predicted a record that had a four game spread and yet you didn't think 7-9 was possible?

[justasportsfan]

It was a playoff line up. Rex ruined it. Again, last year's D and this year's O we make playoffs.

You can blame the Pegulas for this D because they hired the guy who ruined it

[Novacane]

Let me say that I predicted an 8-8 to 12-4 season. The prospect of finishing 7-9 was not on my list of possibilities.

The gimmick play offense, regressed defense, and an over penalized team squarely fall on coaching.

With the obvious stated let me make a case:

1) Whaley had another great draft. Williams, Miller, Darby...say what you want but Whaley can pick players.

2) Rex didn't make the same bone headed decisions on challenges and calls that have plagued us with first time coaches in years past. It was nice to not scream at the TV over a challenge.

3) I blame the Pegulas more than Rex on the defense. Unless they said Rex don't change the D it's almost impossible to assume he wouldn't. I know if I changed companies I would run it the way I've done with success previously.

4) This really wasn't a playoff team. And if not for Rex we wouldn't even have a serviceable QB. Let's not forget Tyrod is here because of Rex. Look at Dallas with and without Romo.

5) Adding new coaches, schemes, and ownership is a lot to overcome in one year. It rarely happens. The Jets certainly are a nice argument to this point but in reality it usually doesn't happen right a way. Marv had Bruce and Jim Kelly and it took more than a year or two with Polian upstairs.



Did you not watch the KC game? There is no good argument for Rex!

[HHURRICANE]

You predicted a record that had a four game spread and yet you didn't think 7-9 was possible?

My prediction was 10-6. But I said I could this team finishing as bad as 8-8 or as good as 12-4 based on schedule, etc.

So no 7-9, with this roster, was not something that I feasibly saw happening.

[HHURRICANE]

Did you not watch the KC game? There is no good argument for Rex!

This board has revisionist history. This team was much better run in many facets than previous teams. Way more professional on the field. I didn't say that Rex didn't make mistakes. Getting caught twice making personnel changes was ridiculous.

[sahlensguy]

3) I blame the Pegulas more than Rex on the defense. Unless they said Rex don't change the D it's almost impossible to assume he wouldn't. I know if I changed companies I would run it the way I've done with success previously.



You can blame the Pegulas if they knew what they were getting into from the start. It now appears that our D is in full rebuild mode to find players to fit Rex's style. I don't know about the Pegulas, but this isn't what Rex was selling at his introduction press conference.

"We play defense based on our personnel, not just a scheme."

The guy lets his mouth do the walking which only gets us going backwards.

[Ingtar33]

The gimmick play offense

which was the 3rd best offensives season the bills had since the last superbowl run (behind '98, '02)

[kscdogbillsfan1221]

This board has revisionist history. This team was much better run in many facets than previous teams. Way more professional on the field. I didn't say that Rex didn't make mistakes. Getting caught twice making personnel changes was ridiculous.

way more professional on the field? does that include the ridiculous amount of penalties this team earned this year?

come on man. you're better than this.

[YardRat]

I get the support for Whaley (to a certain point) but there is no justification for Wrecks and anybody that had a say in hiring him.

Considering the circumstances, it may be the worst coaching move in the history of the franchise since Collier replaced Saban.

[Novacane]

This board has revisionist history. This team was much better run in many facets than previous teams. Way more professional on the field. I didn't say that Rex didn't make mistakes. Getting caught twice making personnel changes was ridiculous.


Where does that come from? You must be talking about the same stupid penalties that were committed over and over and over................ :rolleyes:

[DesertFox24]

Look we have Rex and to destroy the whole thing after one year would be even worse. The best thing to do is give him three years and hope for some continuity and that continuity will lead to success like it did for the bengals.

Rex did get is tyrod which may be a franchise qb for us and is still young, without Rex he is not here. That said we need to draft another QB in the first three rounds to develop since EJ is a goner.

[Novacane]

Continuity for the sake of continuity is stupidity!

[Mace]

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it

We're the Jets when the early success started taking a dip for the worse.

[DraftBoy]

Look we have Rex and to destroy the whole thing after one year would be even worse. The best thing to do is give him three years and hope for some continuity and that continuity will lead to success like it did for the bengals.

Isn't there an argument to be made that keeping Rex will lead to destroying almost the entire defense and rebuilding it? You're looking at pretty big turnover on that unit.

[DesertFox24]

Isn't there an argument to be made that keeping Rex will lead to destroying almost the entire defense and rebuilding it? You're looking at pretty big turnover on that unit.

Well Dareus and Hughes will fit his system

Gilmore and Darby fit

Mckelvin could fit as a safety but this is a position that needs new blood for sure

Randall Johnson and Manny I think fit for one position but we may need to review Brown and Bradham (probably gone in FA anyway)

Kyle Williams can play, Charles, Bryant, and the new guy fit the system.

In other words Safety, LB, a new Pass Rusher, and some depth will be needed.

[cookie G]

Well Dareus and Hughes will fit his system

Gilmore and Darby fit

Mckelvin could fit as a safety but this is a position that needs new blood for sure

Randall Johnson and Manny I think fit for one position but we may need to review Brown and Bradham (probably gone in FA anyway)

Kyle Williams can play, Charles, Bryant, and the new guy fit the system.

In other words Safety, LB, a new Pass Rusher, and some depth will be needed.

This is what I don't get about the "continuity" argument and about "destroying everything after one year".

You're talking about replacing at least 1/3 of the defense...after one year. (BTW, using Dareus as a 2 gap NT or 5 tech is a monumental waste of talent, as is using jerry Hughes in pass coverage).

Who is the one destroying things? Is it Rex, or the people who want him gone?

[pmoon6]

I get the support for Whaley (to a certain point) but there is no justification for Wrecks and anybody that had a say in hiring him.

Considering the circumstances, it may be the worst coaching move in the history of the franchise since Collier replaced Saban.Did Kay Stephenson and Hank Bullough slip your mind?

At least Collier had some credibility with a great Bills defense in the AFL and he went on to coach defense in Denver where they went to multiple Super bowls.

[TacklingDummy]

Let me say that I predicted an 8-8 to 12-4 season. The prospect of finishing 7-9 was not on my list of possibilities.

The gimmick play offense, regressed defense, and an over penalized team squarely fall on coaching.

With the obvious stated let me make a case:

1) Whaley had another great draft. Williams, Miller, Darby...say what you want but Whaley can pick players.

2) Rex didn't make the same bone headed decisions on challenges and calls that have plagued us with first time coaches in years past. It was nice to not scream at the TV over a challenge.

3) I blame the Pegulas more than Rex on the defense. Unless they said Rex don't change the D it's almost impossible to assume he wouldn't. I know if I changed companies I would run it the way I've done with success previously.

4) This really wasn't a playoff team. And if not for Rex we wouldn't even have a serviceable QB. Let's not forget Tyrod is here because of Rex. Look at Dallas with and without Romo.

5) Adding new coaches, schemes, and ownership is a lot to overcome in one year. It rarely happens. The Jets certainly are a nice argument to this point but in reality it usually doesn't happen right a way. Marv had Bruce and Jim Kelly and it took more than a year or two with Polian upstairs.

The bills would be 12-4 if ey had the leader Fred Jackson on the team. But you wanted him cut for 4 years now.

[YardRat]

Did Kay Stephenson and Hank Bullough slip your mind?

At least Collier had some credibility with a great Bills defense in the AFL and he went on to coach defense in Denver where they went to multiple Super bowls.

Actually I considered both. Stephenson took over a sub-500 team from the Knox debacle, and made them worse. Bullough took over the train-wreck left by Stephenson. I gave Collier the nod (what he did in Denver as DC is irrelevant IMO) by a touch because he took over a championship-caliber team and drove them into the ground.

[Mace]

This is what I don't get about the "continuity" argument and about "destroying everything after one year".

You're talking about replacing at least 1/3 of the defense...after one year. (BTW, using Dareus as a 2 gap NT or 5 tech is a monumental waste of talent, as is using jerry Hughes in pass coverage).

Who is the one destroying things? Is it Rex, or the people who want him gone?

I can vaguely see dropping Hughes into coverage, though it wastes him, but he's about the most mobile lineman, and then though it leads back into dropping Dareus and Kyle (if he stays) into coverage, and hoping to find more coverage pass rushing linemen while hoping to find pass rushing coverage safeties.

Just seems ridiculous to me when your coverage guys can cover and your pass rushers can rush. Bet it seems ridiculous to opposing coaches next year too after we blow a bunch of picks and money trying to do it poorly.

[cookie G]

Did Kay Stephenson and Hank Bullough slip your mind?

At least Collier had some credibility with a great Bills defense in the AFL and he went on to coach defense in Denver where they went to multiple Super bowls.

The Hank Bullough reference is a good one I think, and one I've thought about quite a bit this season. There are some similarities.

Despite his buffoonery at the mike, Bullough really had a quality football mind;
The Fairbanks-Bullough 2 Gap 3-4 is still in use today and was groundbreaking at the time (the "Bullough" in Fairbanks-Bullough Defense stands for Hank Bullough;
Bullough not only had success with it in NE in the late 70's, it also helped Cinci to make the Super Bowl in the early 80's.
He was really one of the best DC's in the NFL at the time.

But coming to Buffalo..the players hated him. Smerlas called him a medical miracle, because he could walk around with one living brain cell. Bruce called for an all out revolt. After he left, Talley said it was like the chains were taken off him.

I realize he was an interim coach, but the Bills were also on their 3rd coach in 4 years with him.

New GM Bill "Lucky" Polian actually faced a tough decision, especially considering he was just starting as a coach.

He could have easily called for "continuity" and say, "we're not doing this again" and "maybe we need new players"

Bruce could have been labelled a malcontent;
Smerlas could have been labelled a cancer; (well..he and Marv didn't see eye to eye either);
Talley could have ended up an underachiever.
And god knows what would have happened with the offense.

In terms of the contract money to be eaten, the situations aren't close.

But in other ways, there are some common factors.


In 1986, they chose a path and didn't look back.

They'll be looking back this time, I just don't think it will be as favorable

[cookie G]

I can vaguely see dropping Hughes into coverage, though it wastes him, but he's about the most mobile lineman, and then though it leads back into dropping Dareus and Kyle (if he stays) into coverage, and hoping to find more coverage pass rushing linemen while hoping to find pass rushing coverage safeties.

Just seems ridiculous to me when your coverage guys can cover and your pass rushers can rush. Bet it seems ridiculous to opposing coaches next year too after we blow a bunch of picks and money trying to do it poorly.

It isn't merely having the DL drop into coverage, not to me at least.

To me, it goes back to what Dareus was talking about in TC, when he said, "I'd rather get after the QB rather than making a bunch of reads before I do". As Warren Sapp said about Dareus a few years ago, "you can make him a 5 tech DE if you want, and he'll probably do OK, but I have no idea why you would. You don't take a strength speed combo like that and use it to tie up blockers"

I understand the virtues of a 2 gap 3-4, I really do...and I know it can work.

But its not the only defense in the NFL.

[Mace]

It isn't merely having the DL drop into coverage, not to me at least.

To me, it goes back to what Dareus was talking about in TC, when he said, "I'd rather get after the QB rather than making a bunch of reads before I do". As Warren Sapp said about Dareus a few years ago, "you can make him a 5 tech DE if you want, and he'll probably do OK, but I have no idea why you would. You don't take a strength speed combo like that and use it to tie up blockers"

I understand the virtues of a 2 gap 3-4, I really do...and I know it can work.

But its not the only defense in the NFL.

No arguments from me, you're on top of your game with your points. The virtues of any defense can work, or not work depending on who is guiding it. You can't misuse what you have and try and use what you don't. Coverage/rushers to me is only the obvious sign in this particular case, you also don't take an undersized gap shooter like Kyle Williams and drop him to shadow a mobile QB, like they did with Mariota who luckily panicked being a rookie. If we had the parts for a Fairbanks-Bullough it would have been different, same as if we had the parts for a 4-6 hybrid, but by the same token the 2nd NE game showed you the difference available in defensive playcalling for what we did have, compared to what we never did do in most games.

Leads us back to the universal point, maybe, Ryan is junk.

[pmoon6]

Actually I considered both. Stephenson took over a sub-500 team from the Knox debacle, and made them worse. Bullough took over the train-wreck left by Stephenson. I gave Collier the nod (what he did in Denver as DC is irrelevant IMO) by a touch because he took over a championship-caliber team and drove them into the ground.Fair point. I was dismayed as a youngster when we went from champions to total crap in such a short time.

Every kid in the neighborhood picked an NFL team to follow at that point, mostly Green Bay. I liked the Browns because my Dad did and the Cowboys after seeing the "Ice Bowl"

[pmoon6]

The Hank Bullough reference is a good one I think, and one I've thought about quite a bit this season. There are some similarities.

Despite his buffoonery at the mike, Bullough really had a quality football mind;
The Fairbanks-Bullough 2 Gap 3-4 is still in use today and was groundbreaking at the time (the "Bullough" in Fairbanks-Bullough Defense stands for Hank Bullough;
Bullough not only had success with it in NE in the late 70's, it also helped Cinci to make the Super Bowl in the early 80's.
He was really one of the best DC's in the NFL at the time.

But coming to Buffalo..the players hated him. Smerlas called him a medical miracle, because he could walk around with one living brain cell. Bruce called for an all out revolt. After he left, Talley said it was like the chains were taken off him.

I realize he was an interim coach, but the Bills were also on their 3rd coach in 4 years with him.

New GM Bill "Lucky" Polian actually faced a tough decision, especially considering he was just starting as a coach.

He could have easily called for "continuity" and say, "we're not doing this again" and "maybe we need new players"

Bruce could have been labelled a malcontent;
Smerlas could have been labelled a cancer; (well..he and Marv didn't see eye to eye either);
Talley could have ended up an underachiever.
And god knows what would have happened with the offense.

In terms of the contract money to be eaten, the situations aren't close.

But in other ways, there are some common factors.


In 1986, they chose a path and didn't look back.

They'll be looking back this time, I just don't think it will be as favorableI've been thinking about how Rexy is supposedly loved by his players, especially on the defensive side.

My question is "why". He took a successful group and screwed them up. Is he just "soft" on them and let's them do what they want? Kinda obvious there is a lack of discipline even though you can't be a taskmaster with today's athlete.

Bullough was hated as you have pointed out. I can't remember the exact quotes, but Bruce confronted him a couple of times. Compared him to a trout or something.

[HHURRICANE]

Swept the Jets....

[swiper]

Swept the Jets....

Get back to us when they sweep the Patriots.

[HHURRICANE]

Get back to us when they sweep the Patriots.

I think it's a big win. Rex had more to lose than this game.

[swiper]

He still does have more he should lose. Namely his job.