Here is why I wanted a loss against the Jets:

[stuckincincy]

They would have finished at 7 and 9...along with five other clubs. Those 5 are ranked with a strength of schedule from .504 (Saints) to .535 (Lions).

The Bills finished 8 - 8 with a SOS of .508. With a NYJ win, that SOS would increase, likely to the point where BUF tops the 7 -9 clubs in draft order.


A loss could have vaulted them from the 19th spot to the 12th... :duh:


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000551301/article/2016-nfl-draft-order-and-needs-for-every-team

[Typ0]

Which begs the question why would they even win?

[Joe Fo Sho]

Here is why I wanted a win against the Jets:

They prevented the Jets from playing this week.

[Night Train]

The draft is not an exact science. You can believe otherwise.

I'm glad we won the last 2 games.

We'll still get players that can help this team improve.

[Joe Fo Sho]

They would have finished at 7 and 9...along with five other clubs. Those 5 are ranked with a strength of schedule from .504 (Saints) to .535 (Lions).

The Bills finished 8 - 8 with a SOS of .508. With a NYJ win, that SOS would increase, likely to the point where BUF tops the 7 -9 clubs in draft order.


A loss could have vaulted them from the 19th spot to the 12th... :duh:


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000551301/article/2016-nfl-draft-order-and-needs-for-every-team

You don't want to increase our SOS. The tie breaker for draft position is that the lowest SOS picks 1st.

[coastal]

We can still get a top flight CB at 19

[Mr. Pink]

The difference between 12th and 19th is likely Robert Nkemdiche to Shaq Lawson.

I'd fully expect them to take a DE to replace Mario.

If they go LB it's the difference between Jaylon Smith and Scooby Wright.

[Victor7]

I will never for the life of me understand wanting to lose a game to get a better draft pick. I mean if its from 4 to 1 and there's a sure fire prospect ala Luck I would see the point. But from 19 to 12 or around those numbers ?? It makes no sense at all. None.

[trapezeus]

I'm torn on this. yes, better to pick up, but the bills have over drafted people how many times during this drought? whitner, losman, mccargo, maybin, mcgahee, and EJ stick out as guys who we took too high. picking any lower might have helped with getting Big ben instead of losman. but the other guys I think we would have still made the same mistake.

for the bills, they aren't looking at qb and aren't pigeon holed to one position. they can take a DE, LB, safety, QB,OL and be ok. so its not like we have to have a particular player. and I don't think the difference between 12-19 in this draft class is that big.

I was surprised the bills had any fight with the number of back ups they had. so it does make me think that rex might not shoulder as much blame as I originally thought. the team showed they want him and will fight for him to a degree. he still had a terrible second half coaching by letting the jets into the game and settling for FG whena knockout punch was needed. but I thought they would barely show up like it was the jags game.

[Bill Cody]

You can't root for a loss against the Jets for any reason. If you do you're a loser. Period.

[trapezeus]

also, I think we'll find out at the draft if someone else takes the stud linebacker that seems to be needed to QB Rex's defense. if we get a qb for the defense this year via draft or free agency, I don't think we'll see much difference in the execution of the defense. Rex and crew doesn't seem to think that 16 out of 17 games with penalties and substitution issues were a problem. so I don't think they simplify anything. at the end of the day a LB goes in 12-19 and he's the guy we would have loved to have, this win will definitely have been a loss.

[stuckincincy]

You don't want to increase our SOS. The tie breaker for draft position is that the lowest SOS picks 1st.

Right you are.

[cookie G]

We can still get a top flight CB at 19

....And the latest 3 year rebuilding period begins...

All because the Baffoon "wowed 'em" in his interview.

[Novacane]

I losing means drafting a franchise QB I'm all for it. It not I want to win!

[OpIv37]

The culture of losing has to end. The mentality has to be that losing is never acceptable. "It's ok to lose now if it could make us slightly better next year." **** that.

We had the chance to knock a div rival out of the playoffs and we took it. The last thing we need is the Jets gaining confidence.

[cookie G]

The culture of losing has to end. The mentality has to be that losing is never acceptable. "It's ok to lose now if it could make us slightly better next year." **** that.

We had the chance to knock a div rival out of the playoffs and we took it. The last thing we need is the Jets gaining confidence.


eh...winning a meaningless game against the Jets, or the meaningless game against the Cowboys the week before, has 0 effect on changing the loser mentality.

Some far bigger changes will need to be made, but these December "moral victories" don't do much of anything.

[YardRat]

The culture of losing has to end. The mentality has to be that losing is never acceptable. "It's ok to lose now if it could make us slightly better next year." **** that.

We had the chance to knock a div rival out of the playoffs and we took it. The last thing we need is the Jets gaining confidence.

That's quite a role reversal for you, isn't it?

[Mr. Pink]

The culture of losing has to end. The mentality has to be that losing is never acceptable. "It's ok to lose now if it could make us slightly better next year." **** that.

We had the chance to knock a div rival out of the playoffs and we took it. The last thing we need is the Jets gaining confidence.

I still don't understand why people think this way. What we did yesterday will have absolutely zero bearing on what we do next year.

Look at last year, this team won a meaningless game against New England....New England decided it was a meaningless game for them completely, they went out and won the Superbowl and turned around this year, beat the Bills twice and won the division again - as per usual.

[OLDSRIP]

We can still get a top flight CB at 19

Or a running back!

[SpikedLemonade]

Or a running back!

Anything other than OL.

I can't wait to see the stiffs they put on the OL next year.

[stuckincincy]

The culture of losing has to end. The mentality has to be that losing is never acceptable. "It's ok to lose now if it could make us slightly better next year." **** that.

We had the chance to knock a div rival out of the playoffs and we took it. The last thing we need is the Jets gaining confidence.

I see your points. But there also has to be a culture of strategy, of planning. An understanding of your foes -of ceding a battle to win the war.

Armies, politicians, statesmen, marketers, coaches and on and on have read and studied Sun Tzu's The Art of War:

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3200649-s-nz-b-ngf


The long view generally prevails...

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I get that people hate playing spoiler, but come on already. If you are at the point where you are actively rooting for a loss that puts a hated division rival in the playoffs, I have to ask if you actually enjoy watching football games. That was a fun win.

[feldspar]

We can still get a top flight CB at 19

Then you can ***** about him all day long, still.

The Bills have picked a CB twice in the first round in the past 14 years.

It's not like the position isn't important either.

[stuckincincy]

I get that people hate playing spoiler, but come on already. If you are at the point where you are actively rooting for a loss that puts a hated division rival in the playoffs, I have to ask if you actually enjoy watching football games. That was a fun win.

I don't think that folks dislike playing spoiler, or that a win isn't fun.

But folks do look at a long history on the outs come season end. They see franchises that consistently, or at least for several seasons in a row, are in the playoff race. Those clubs do look long-term, build their trenches, pay attention to draft positioning, and generally don't go out and pay big,big bucks for marquee players (unless they have the other parts of a team reasonably intact). BUF bangs up against the cap wall, meanwhile.

Building through the draft is the current thing, unless you are blessed with a unique qb talent.

This club changes rbs and qbs and hcs like daily changes of underwear. Bleeds draft picks with trades that leaves NFL cognoscenti scratching their heads. Years go by before they address the OL, then they buy a Dockery and a Walker (was that his name?), blow that cash, let a Jason Peter walk, and so on.

Here's hoping the new ownership will improve that, but the McCoy deal didn't lend confidence.

[Ed]

We had one of the best rookies in the league this year and we didn't even have a first round pick. Every year we go through this. The season ends and it's as if some fans just completely forget the actual realities of the draft. They become obsessed with missing out on a few extra draft spots. No matter where we pick it's never high enough. There's always that perfect magical prospect that's now just out of our reach because we won one too many games. Yet for some reason every single year the top 10 players never actually go in the top 10. Teams like the Browns and Jags can pick in the top 5 every year, but for some reason they never get any better while the good teams seem to have no problem finding talent and immediate contributors at the end of the round. For all we know the player the Bills pick at 19 is the same player they would have picked at 12. Or the player they would have picked at 12 ends up being a huge bust. There's going to be great players available at 19.

[stuckincincy]

If they pick the same player at #19 that they would pick at #12 , it would imply that

1) They are smarter than the rest of the league.

2) They have some secret grand plan that will turn around a 20 year playoff drought.

I see no evidence of either. This club likes to dish off future picks and where has it got them?

[BertSquirtgum]

They would have finished at 7 and 9...along with five other clubs. Those 5 are ranked with a strength of schedule from .504 (Saints) to .535 (Lions).

The Bills finished 8 - 8 with a SOS of .508. With a NYJ win, that SOS would increase, likely to the point where BUF tops the 7 -9 clubs in draft order.


A loss could have vaulted them from the 19th spot to the 12th... :duh:


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000551301/article/2016-nfl-draft-order-and-needs-for-every-team

Dumb

[psubills62]

I get that people hate playing spoiler, but come on already. If you are at the point where you are actively rooting for a loss that puts a hated division rival in the playoffs, I have to ask if you actually enjoy watching football games. That was a fun win.
You're talking to Bills fans.

[pmoon6]

eh...winning a meaningless game against the Jets, or the meaningless game against the Cowboys the week before, has 0 effect on changing the loser mentality.

Some far bigger changes will need to be made, but these December "moral victories" don't do much of anything.I guess McKelvin and both backers should have just knocked the ball down instead of picking it off.

[swiper]

Kyle Williams (Pro Bowl x 4) was drafted in the 5th round.

Brandon Marshall (Pro Bowl x 6) was drafted in the 4th round.

Much rather have had those last two wins also. Losing for draft position is only reasonable to me in order to get a franchise QB.

[OpIv37]

I still don't understand why people think this way. What we did yesterday will have absolutely zero bearing on what we do next year.

Look at last year, this team won a meaningless game against New England....New England decided it was a meaningless game for them completely, they went out and won the Superbowl and turned around this year, beat the Bills twice and won the division again - as per usual.

Think about what you just said. First, NE didn't decide a loss was acceptable. They decided a regular season loss was tolerable if it helped them with post season success, which it did.

Second, they DECIDED. The Jets didn't decide anything. They were playing their hearts out against a team with nothing left to play for except pride, and they lost. That's a mind-****. Remember how '05 went after Pitt's backups knocked us out of the playoffs in 04? Clearly that loss wasn't the only reason we struggled in 05 but there is no doubt in my mind that the damage to the team's psyche was a contributing factor.

[OpIv37]

I see your points. But there also has to be a culture of strategy, of planning. An understanding of your foes -of ceding a battle to win the war.

Armies, politicians, statesmen, marketers, coaches and on and on have read and studied Sun Tzu's The Art of War:

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3200649-s-nz-b-ngf


The long view generally prevails...

But the long view isn't a guarantee. Moving up 5-6 spots doesn't mean we will necessarily get a better player. Just look at this team: last year we didn't have a first round pick but still had a better draft than some of the years we had a top 10 pick. Losing a battle for slightly better odds is dumb, especially when that loss would allow a div rival into the playoffs.

[pmoon6]

People can ***** about Whaley all they want for the E.J. pick, but he has drafted pretty well overall. He's also made some good moves in free agency and trade.

[cookie G]

People can ***** about Whaley all they want for the E.J. pick, but he has drafted pretty well overall. He's also made some good moves in free agency and trade.

I don't have a problem with the EJ pick either...Buddy put him behind the 8 ball with his failing to address the position in his tenure.

I just don't think he should have stopped his search with EJ.

[IlluminatusUIUC]

I don't think that folks dislike playing spoiler, or that a win isn't fun.

But folks do look at a long history on the outs come season end. They see franchises that consistently, or at least for several seasons in a row, are in the playoff race. Those clubs do look long-term, build their trenches, pay attention to draft positioning, and generally don't go out and pay big,big bucks for marquee players (unless they have the other parts of a team reasonably intact). BUF bangs up against the cap wall, meanwhile.

Building through the draft is the current thing, unless you are blessed with a unique qb talent.

This club changes rbs and qbs and hcs like daily changes of underwear. Bleeds draft picks with trades that leaves NFL cognoscenti scratching their heads. Years go by before they address the OL, then they buy a Dockery and a Walker (was that his name?), blow that cash, let a Jason Peter walk, and so on.

Here's hoping the new ownership will improve that, but the McCoy deal didn't lend confidence.

What does any of this have to do with tanking? I agree, the teams that are successful build strong lines and think long-term, but when have you ever seen the class franchises of the league rolling over for draft position? The example every one loves to lean on is Indianapolis, but everyone seems to forget that they actually won 2 of their last 3 games and played hard all the way to the whistle in the season finale, a game that would have knocked them out of the #1 draft slot. And everyone involved with that season got fired.

Good teams find good players at any draft position. The difference between 12 and 19 in most years is not dramatic and you have no idea of knowing for years after the fact.

[sudzy]

Which begs the question why would they even win?

They usually don't. Two winning seasons in 16 years.

[Bill Cody]

Good teams find good players at any draft position. The difference between 12 and 19 in most years is not dramatic and you have no idea of knowing for years after the fact.

NE has done ok. They usually pick long after 19. This thread is garbage.

[TacklingDummy]

Meaningless wins, got to love them.

Only problem is they are very meaningful come draft selection.

[Mr. Pink]

Think about what you just said. First, NE didn't decide a loss was acceptable. They decided a regular season loss was tolerable if it helped them with post season success, which it did.

Second, they DECIDED. The Jets didn't decide anything. They were playing their hearts out against a team with nothing left to play for except pride, and they lost. That's a mind-****. Remember how '05 went after Pitt's backups knocked us out of the playoffs in 04? Clearly that loss wasn't the only reason we struggled in 05 but there is no doubt in my mind that the damage to the team's psyche was a contributing factor.

There is one reason and one reason only this team struggled in 05. His name was JP Losman. That team wasn't a dumpster fire if Bledsoe was still at the helm.

NE decided that week 17 game was acceptable with whatever happened as it had no bearing on what they were gonna do in the playoffs let alone the next season. Obviously, it didn't.

So here we go with 2 late season meaningless wins that come May 1st mean absolutely nothing. To me 6-10 vs 8-8 is the same thing, the ultimate goal is the Championship but I've resigned to just a playoff appearance...neither of those records get you there and nothing you do this has any carry over to next year.

The Seahawks lost the Superbowl on what some people called one of the dumbest playcalls ever. One would think that was deflating? Except they're still in the playoffs and have peaked at the right time, I don't think any team in the NFC would want to play them in the playoffs. Unfortunately the Vikes get that task this weekend after they were absolutely destroyed by the Hawks a little over a month ago.

So yeah, I'd rather lose a meaningless game to gain a better draft pick because there are more players to choose from...and, not that this is the case this year, but one meaningless victory cost the Bills the ability to draft Ben Roethlisberger and end up trading up for Losman. This team with Big Ben isn't sitting on 16 years of no playoffs...literally one can trace one meaningless victory for the past 11 years of playoff drought.

[OpIv37]

First, that's a bit of revisionist history. We were done with Bledsoe. Obviously Losman was a bad choice as successor, but Bledsoe was statuesque and never learned to put touch on short throws. And in 05, the vaunted D fell apart. They couldn't get off the field, and while some of that was due to terrible TOP by the O, they D gave up plenty of long drives early in games to put themselves in a hole. With Bledsoe we'd have won a few more games but still wouldn't have been in the playoffs.

Second, if you could guarantee me that the guy we get at 19 is better than the guy we would have gotten at 12, I'd be more inclined to agree. But you can't make that guarantee. Outplaying a div rival in a game that means nothing to us and everything to them is worth more than a slightly better odds of getting a good player in April.

[Mr. Pink]

First, that's a bit of revisionist history. We were done with Bledsoe. Obviously Losman was a bad choice as successor, but Bledsoe was statuesque and never learned to put touch on short throws. And in 05, the vaunted D fell apart. They couldn't get off the field, and while some of that was due to terrible TOP by the O, they D gave up plenty of long drives early in games to put themselves in a hole. With Bledsoe we'd have won a few more games but still wouldn't have been in the playoffs.

Second, if you could guarantee me that the guy we get at 19 is better than the guy we would have gotten at 12, I'd be more inclined to agree. But you can't make that guarantee. Outplaying a div rival in a game that means nothing to us and everything to them is worth more than a slightly better odds of getting a good player in April.

And in 05 this team had absolutely no offense between Losman and Holcomb. I'm not saying the Bills would have been a playoff team in 05 with Bledsoe but they wouldn't have been completely bottom of the barrel dumpster fire with him behind center all year.

I used the Big Ben example, because the Bills had high interest in him during that draft, and a meaningless victory...against the Jets ironically enough...kept the Bills from being able to draft him. This isn't going on pipe dream, you and me and others, thought the Bills were moving up to draft Mangold but instead if was McCargo type stuff. This is legitimately the Bills lost a player they would have taken and instead we got JP...all because of one game.

Obviously, every year doesn't work that way. There's no way to say if the guy we pick at 19 wouldn't be the same guy we would have picked at 12 - if that's even where this team would have been, but if you're going into a draft looking to draft a certain position to better your team and your guy goes off the board and you panic...one win could have been the difference between getting your top prize or settling for second fiddle.

To me outplaying anyone in week 17 when you're going into it at 6-9 means absolutely nothing other than you should have decided a few of those 9 were more important and you should have put that effort in then too.

[Mike]

I will never for the life of me understand wanting to lose a game to get a better draft pick. I mean if its from 4 to 1 and there's a sure fire prospect ala Luck I would see the point. But from 19 to 12 or around those numbers ?? It makes no sense at all. None.

Sometimes it can make a Huge difference.

In 2004, the Bills trying everything in their power to try and draft Big Ben but they couldn't. Instead, Pittsburgh drafted him and the Bills had to settle for JP Lossman later in the draft.

Now, you can argue all day long about 'why would you want to lose...' but looking back that extra meaningless win cost the Bills a chance to draft their #1 guy. This is why, in some cases, it benefits you to lose.

[Mike]

But the long view isn't a guarantee. Moving up 5-6 spots doesn't mean we will necessarily get a better player. Just look at this team: last year we didn't have a first round pick but still had a better draft than some of the years we had a top 10 pick. Losing a battle for slightly better odds is dumb, especially when that loss would allow a div rival into the playoffs.

Guarantees?
Really, you should know that there are no guarantees in football or life.

Football is a game of inches and every little bit helps. You do the best you can to Stack the Odds in your favor. Drafting earlier improves your odds of getting a better player.

[Mike]

Think about what you just said. First, NE didn't decide a loss was acceptable. They decided a regular season loss was tolerable if it helped them with post season success, which it did.


>PATS made a Choice that the Risk of playing their starters and what could happen was not worth the Reward of winning! There was no 'guarantee' that they would win in the playoffs or that Tom Brady wouldn't get injured in the next game.

In 2007, the 16-0 Pats made a very different desicion in week 17. Making history was worth the risk.

What is the moral of the story?
Somehow there's a double standard. When a winning team purposefully plates their backups in week 17 it's considered 'smart' but when a losing team does the same it's considered 'tanking'. Both acts are a cost/benefit analysis with the future in mind.