Cardale Jones Highlights

[BillsImpossible]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qLCV_znK73E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[pmoon6]

Kid looks raw, but he's got an arm and can take a hit. He can sit, learn and develop.

What exactly is wrong with that?

[BillsImpossible]

From driftwood to draftwood.

[sudzy]

Kid looks raw, but he's got an arm and can take a hit. He can sit, learn and develop.

What exactly is wrong with that?

The Bills are wrong with that. They won't let that happen. I said in another thread, the only chance he's got is if the Bills sign a veteran #2 and have Cardale sit and learn for a couple years. The Bills will go into the season with Jones #2, Tyrod gets hurt, Cardale gets killed and then he's mentally done. It's what they do with EVERY "Quarterback of the future".

[mysticsoto]

The Bills are wrong with that. They won't let that happen. I said in another thread, the only chance he's got is if the Bills sign a veteran #2 and have Cardale sit and learn for a couple years. The Bills will go into the season with Jones #2, Tyrod gets hurt, Cardale gets killed and then he's mentally done. It's what they do with EVERY "Quarterback of the future".

You're predicting the Bills get rid of EJ?

[sudzy]

You're predicting the Bills get rid of EJ?

Hoping

[BillsImpossible]

Whoever plays better in training camp and the preseason wins.

[mysticsoto]

Hoping

Right now, EJ is better than Jones or any QB that was available at our pick. This pick was all about developing for the next 1-2 yrs. EJ will be on the roster for this yr...but it'll probably be his last.

[sudzy]

Right now, EJ is better than Jones or any QB that was available at our pick. This pick was all about developing for the next 1-2 yrs. EJ will be on the roster for this yr...but it'll probably be his last.

I was hoping we could sign a veteran, maybe at the end of his career. To get a game or two out of if Tyrod gets hurt and mentor Cardale. I don't want EJ passing his bad habits to this kid or be anywhere near the field. Might be stuck with EJ, but, I don't want to be.

[mysticsoto]

Hoyer is probably the only veteran out there worth anything...

[jimmifli]

With his history, if he gets in a few good games off the bench - he'll be a hot commodity.

There's a much better chance of him turning into tradebait than him working out as a starting QB. But that's fine, ideally he sits all year, gets into 4 games next season going 3-1 with a blowout and a come from behind win. That story, with his college experience make him the kind of QB other teams will chase.

Unfortunately the only way that story is credible, is if we have our starter position nailed down.

[sudzy]

With his history, if he gets in a few good games off the bench - he'll be a hot commodity.

There's a much better chance of him turning into tradebait than him working out as a starting QB. But that's fine, ideally he sits all year, gets into 4 games next season going 3-1 with a blowout and a come from behind win. That story, with his college experience make him the kind of QB other teams will chase.

Unfortunately the only way that story is credible, is if we have our starter position nailed down.

So what your hoping for is the Rob Johnson story only with us as the Jags this time. All we need is some team to be as big as a sucker as the Bills.

[BillsImpossible]

EJ Manuel is officially on the hot seat.

[sudzy]

EJ Manuel is officially on the hot seat.

Like mystic said, not from Jones, not this year. Unless the Bills sign someone else, EJ is #2. For Jones own good, he shouldn't see the field this year.

[BillsImpossible]

If Cardele Jones outperforms EJ Manuel in training camp and preseason, give him the clipboard and backup batteries.

He has to earn the clipboard first. That shouldn't be hard to do. Sorry EJ.

Manuel will likely stay on the Bills roster regardless of how good or bad he performs in the preseason.

If the Bills cut him, oh well.

[Mr. Miyagi]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qLCV_znK73E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Can this kid throw a a 10 yard pass? How's his accuracy with over-the-shoulder passes? Quick slants? All I see in the video is 50 yard bombs or run run run. It's actually pissing me off.

[justasportsfan]

Can this kid throw a a 10 yard pass? How's his accuracy with over-the-shoulder passes? Quick slants? All I see in the video is 50 yard bombs or run run run. It's actually pissing me off.
Hes got a laser arm but I didn't see much throws in tight windows.

[mysticsoto]

If Cardele Jones outperforms EJ Manuel in training camp and preseason, give him the clipboard and backup batteries.

He has to earn the clipboard first. That shouldn't be hard to do. Sorry EJ.

Manuel will likely stay on the Bills roster regardless of how good or bad he performs in the preseason.

If the Bills cut him, oh well.

While I would love that, it's very unlikely that Jones will outperform EJ...like it or not, EJ will be the backup QB this year.

[sudzy]

While I would love that, it's very unlikely that Jones will outperform EJ...like it or not, EJ will be the backup QB this year.

Yes. This is depressing, on what was otherwise a very good weekend for a Bills fan.

[YardRat]

Hoyer is probably the only veteran out there worth anything...

Hoyer signed with Chicago immediately after the conclusion of the draft.

[Mace]

Well, this is complicated. I like Cardale Jones as a developmental pick if you HAVE to take a QB, and I like him exactly where they took him. I was not impressed by this QB class.

Thing is, choosing him if I HAD to have a QB, right THERE, sort of only works for me if I had that earlier pick they traded, not Adolphus in the 3rd and not Ragland in the 2nd.

With the way it developed, I couldn't have taken him there.

My opinion of Wildcat Lee in developing QB's is very low, but it gets lower still when I think of him trying without the cushion of a better team buying him time to do it.

I really do believe Cardale was just a bad fit in the Ohio offense, that he has the highest upside, and the best tools that provide bang for the buck if you HAVE to take a QB and want one later. It's a crapshoot whether he does well here, but then again every single one of these QB's were a crapshoot and I doubt anyone will regret not having one of the others.

We HAD to take a QB. Well, we got one. Think about it next year if we HAVE to have one again in later rounds. Probably won't be much different.

[Night Train]

He was the 139th pick. Not much of a risk.

Possible high reward. Gets a year to ready himself and be part of the conversation if Taylor leaves.

[sahlensguy]

It's good to have a guy in the pipeline. Plenty of upside, but Jones has a long way to go.

[SaviorEdwards]

He was the 139th pick. Not much of a risk.

Possible high reward. Gets a year to ready himself and be part of the conversation if Taylor leaves.


O-H!!!!!!

[DynaPaul]

Waste of a pick. This guy also has accuracy issues and lost his starting job on the team. I would have taken an O lineman in the 4th, not this dude.

[Night Train]

O-H!!!!!!

I-O !!!

[TacklingDummy]

He was the 139th pick. Not much of a risk.

Possible high reward. Gets a year to ready himself and be part of the conversation if Taylor leaves.

I know, really. It was a 4th round pick, who gives a duck.

[jimmifli]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9gho_3CIAATnzl.jpg

https://mobile.twitter.com/CJ12_/status/565238760632500225?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


Man I wish everyone stop saying I beat a kid in the hospital 91-35.... It was 98-35, had 91 with 1:26 left in the 4th

[Mike]

Reminds me of a poor mans Vince Young

[ParanoidAndroid]

The best hope for him is if he holds the clipboard this year and we sign Tyrod. Then, if he can prove worthy of #2, and sits behind Tyrod for a couple more years, he may develop. He is no more than a project right now.

[YardRat]

The best hope for him is if he holds the clipboard this year and we sign Tyrod. Then, if he can prove worthy of #2, and sits behind Tyrod for a couple more years, he may develop. He is no more than a project right now.

If we're going to keep drafting RB's, maintain a low emphasis on the offensive line, have a running QB to pad the stats, and go all-in on 'smashmouth' there is no need to re-sign Taylor for big bucks. Let him move on and plug in the next 'athlete' to hand-off, dump-off, and run for his life. If you're going to spend upwards of 18-20mil on a QB he better be able to throw the ball, and the offensive philosophy has to be at least partially dedicated to the passing game.

[Typ0]

Sounds to me like this guy has very little chance of succeeding in the NFL. Why we took him I can only imagine is they really needed to do something for the offense so they stretched to try and upgrade the QB position when IMO they should have beefed up the OLINE here.

[HHURRICANE]

This was a wasted pick. This kid is worse than EJ.

[jimmifli]

If we're going to keep drafting RB's, maintain a low emphasis on the offensive line, have a running QB to pad the stats, and go all-in on 'smashmouth' there is no need to re-sign Taylor for big bucks. Let him move on and plug in the next 'athlete' to hand-off, dump-off, and run for his life. If you're going to spend upwards of 18-20mil on a QB he better be able to throw the ball, and the offensive philosophy has to be at least partially dedicated to the passing game.

I think that strategy emerged from the players Roman had on hand, not that it's his prefered strategy. But it does seem he's getting the Chan Gailey treatment. "Oh wow, you got a competent offense out of that garbage? Cool! Do it again while we build a killer defense."

[YardRat]

I think that strategy emerged from the players Roman had on hand, not that it's his prefered strategy. But it does seem he's getting the Chan Gailey treatment. "Oh wow, you got a competent offense out of that garbage? Cool! Do it again while we build a killer defense."

I can believe Whaley/Wrecks being bamboozled by the same stats others have. "Dude...we've got the #1 rushing team in the league...why should we do anything to upgrade the offensive line?"

[BillsImpossible]

Jones is a project with huge potential and zero risk. The kid has a great head on his shoulders and no baggage. He's highly intelligent.

All he has to do is learn the game in the NFL. He looks and sounds like a very smart guy, so I would not be surprised if Cardale learns Roman's system quickly and impresses everyone with his smarts, leadership, and play earlier than expected.

Having him in the locker room is a plus in itself. He will earn the respect of his teammates quickly.

I think Tyrod Taylor will help him learn the system better than any starting QB in the NFL. He's not selfish like Sam Bradford is.

When Cardale Jones throws the ball for the first time in training camp, everyone is going to be impressed.

I think he will outplay Manuel in training camp and the preseason.

After Dak Prescott went off the board to the Cowboys, Whaley chose the next best option.

Prescott put up some fancy numbers last year and has great leadership qualities, but I think Cardale Jones will be the better NFL QB.

Cardale Jones is the most charismatic quarterback the Bills have drafted since Jim Kelly.

Charisma is perhaps the most underrated attribute when it comes to evaluating potential NFL talent, especially quarterbacks.

[RandolphDuke]

Reminds me of a poor mans Vince Young
I'm assuming that is a dig at Jones, but keep in mind that Vince Young has been to the playoffs

[Mike]

I'm assuming that is a dig at Jones, but keep in mind that Vince Young has been to the playoffs

Not a dig at all, just an observation.

Physically, they have a lot of similarities & great physical attributes.
VY failed on mental & emotional aspects. No idea how Jones is in that department.


So far there is a common theme to Doug's QB picks: he goes after physically gifted athletes.

[SaviorEdwards]

I see so many opinions bashing 12 gauge as 'he lost the starting job'...well he also lost Tom Herman to Houston who coached him up big time for those final three games. Cardale never fit into Urban's spread offense, where JT was custom made for it. With the right coaching and leadership Jones could be great.

[stuckincincy]

OSU runs a spread offense? Have you ever watched them play? :confused:

[SaviorEdwards]

OSU runs a spread offense? Have you ever watched them play? :confused:


Yes I am an alumn and its a spread-option offense...have you ever watched them play? Please email Urban and tell him he doesn't run a spread offense just for the laughter factor :D

[stuckincincy]

Yes I am an alumn and its a spread-option offense...have you ever watched them play? Please email Urban and tell him he doesn't run a spread offense just for the laughter factor :D


Er, let the scales fall from your eyes...

http://www.landgrantholyland.com/2015/4/26/8424391/ohio-state-football-spread-offense-pew-pew

[swiper]

Er, let the scales fall from your eyes...

http://www.landgrantholyland.com/2015/4/26/8424391/ohio-state-football-spread-offense-pew-pew

LOL

[justasportsfan]

I like the 1st throw he made in this video. ( :54 secs. ) Between 2 defenders 20+ yards deep .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjL1gGz1sC0

[SaviorEdwards]

Er, let the scales fall from your eyes...

http://www.landgrantholyland.com/2015/4/26/8424391/ohio-state-football-spread-offense-pew-pew

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2015/01/03/ohio-state-oregon-offenses-urban-meyer-mark-helfrich-chip-kelly/21207573/ Let the scales fall from your eyes...to say Urban Meyer doesn't run the spread is idiotic. He may have elements of other offenses, but Urban Meyer is the spread-option. You should pick up a new sport to follow this one has passed you by. The guy went out to Eugene to exchange some ideas about this offense, but you probably don't think Oregon runs the spread either. You have literally no idea what you're talking about. Again, please email Urban and tell him he doesn't run the S P R E A D offense.

[sahlensguy]

First there was Machine Gun Kelly, now there is 12 Guage.

[stuckincincy]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2015/01/03/ohio-state-oregon-offenses-urban-meyer-mark-helfrich-chip-kelly/21207573/ Let the scales fall from your eyes...to say Urban Meyer doesn't run the spread is idiotic. He may have elements of other offenses, but Urban Meyer is the spread-option. You should pick up a new sport to follow this one has passed you by. The guy went out to Eugene to exchange some ideas about this offense, but you probably don't think Oregon runs the spread either. You have literally no idea what you're talking about. Again, please email Urban and tell him he doesn't run the S P R E A D offense.

Did people chuck things at you when you were in school?

[Victor7]

Horrendous pick and here's why

It has little to do with Cardale and a lot to do with Whaley.

Whaley loves to hang on to his picks even when they have shown to be a failure. (see Manuel EJ). If Taylor fails to progress and we find ourselves looking for a QB next season you can bet your asses Dougie won't be drafting one. Not in the next 2 (possibly 3) drafts as he tries to show us Cardale is the real deal. All those posters saying its ok because its only a 4th for a boom or bust guy fail to see the long term implications this is going to have on our drafting. Whaley will try to push Cardale down whoever is our coach's throat to the bloody end. If I knew Whaley was a man that admits his errors and corrects them ASAP I wouldn't be concerned about wasting a stupid comp. 4th. Just you watch. Whaley gonna Whaley

Now on to Jones. If Reggie Ragland or Aaron Williams walk into OBD tomorrow and toss a football 70 yards in the air they won't be far behind Cardale. That's how bad this kid is. He's a just a big dude with a big arm. This whole "upside" thing is bull****. He wasn't even a full time starter, not a team captain. He's not accurate, he can't read defenses. He's just a big arm. That's it. Sadly that is all that Whaley needs to get his rocks off. A big guy with a strong arm. **** all the other far more important things that make a QB like being able to read a defense, go through progressions or you know be accurate. If you can throw the ball hard you get Doug hard.

Whaley wouldn't know a QB if one fell on his lap.

[sahlensguy]

If Taylor fails, there is no way Whaley goes next year with Cardale as our #1 option. No way.

[Victor7]

If Taylor fails, there is no way Whaley goes next year with Cardale as our #1 option. No way.

Wait and see my man.

[sahlensguy]

Wait and see my man.

I will bet cervezas on it.

[Mr. Cynical]

Watched his clip. One thing I noticed is that all of the long throws, the receiver has had to slow down and grab it. Jones never led the receiver. Isn't he supposed to have a monster arm? Anyway, not worried - he's a 4th, expectations are low, and I'm ok with the pick. Just was surprised to see this.

[Mace]

Whaley loves to hang on to his picks even when they have shown to be a failure. (see Manuel EJ). If Taylor fails to progress and we find ourselves looking for a QB next season you can bet your asses Dougie won't be drafting one. Not in the next 2 (possibly 3) drafts as he tries to show us Cardale is the real deal.

Whaley wouldn't know a QB if one fell on his lap.

Vic, he would have done the same with whatever QB they would have taken, and you have the off chance he's less married to a 4th round pick than a 1,2 or 3, and I still don't think any of the earlier ones are all that good either.

Have no issue agreeing that I'm not convinced Whaley has a clue about QBs.

If you're saying he shouldn't have taken one at all, I might waffle, because you might be right, if he HAD to take one it didn't matter (imho), may as well go for highest "possible" upside as late as possible or you wouldn't have gotten Lawson, Ragland and Washington. Now I'm not a big fan of Washington atm, but I'm all in on him if you give me the option of taking a qb there instead.

If he's that terrible, there are more maybe QB's next year for Whaley to probably be in charge of picking with his crapshoot eye. If you look at Ryan who also isn't going anywhere, he's not so sharp with QB's either.

Hope for the best and spare yourself the pain until something else happens at this point. No helping it.

[Arm of Harm]

Mace wrote:

> if he HAD to take one it didn't matter (imho), may as well go for highest "possible" upside as late as possible or you wouldn't have gotten Lawson, Ragland and Washington.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Whaley had decided to take a QB, and that he didn't want to use any of his first three picks on one. Fine. Kevin Hogan was still available when Whaley took Cardale Jones. Nothing about Hogan's physical tools will prevent him from being a successful starting QB. If he turns out to not deserve a starting position, it will be because of accuracy issues, or lack of information processing speed, or something else along those lines. On the other hand, he'd demonstrated good accuracy at Stanford; as well as reasonably good information processing speed while running Stanford's pro-style offense.

Obviously, Hogan (or any other QB the Bills could have drafted in the fourth) is much more likely to be a career-long backup than a franchise QB. But even if he only represents a one in ten or one in twenty chance of becoming a top-15 starting QB, that relatively low chance is still well worth taking. You draft enough guys like that, eventually one will work out.

Imagine that ten or twenty years from now, scientists create a pill which could give anyone great athletic ability. With a pill like that, you could pick names at random out of a phone book, give the people you'd selected that pill, and have them try out for NFL quarterback positions. All these people would have great physical tools (because of the pill), and none would have done anything at all to demonstrate throwing accuracy or information processing speed. They'd all be Cardale Jones-type picks, and each would have about the same probability of becoming successful NFL quarterbacks Cardale Jones has.

E.J. Manuel and Cardale Jones are both symptoms of the problem. The problem is that Doug Whaley can't evaluate QB talent.

[YardRat]

I took one of those pills once and ended up in a doctor's office after four hours.

[Mace]

E.J. Manuel and Cardale Jones are both symptoms of the problem. The problem is that Doug Whaley can't evaluate QB talent.

We already said that. Unless you have a different magic pill that suddenly makes him smarter and goes back a few years, not a crap changes. Since I can't remove Doug Whaley from his position, not owning the team and such, I'm as stuck with his choices as anyone, and if he's so bad, why would you think it would matter who he took where, because he's not worth a crap with qb's anyway ?

So you think windup Hogan is better than misfiring Jones. Good for you. Windup Tebow was a 66.4% passer in college yeah ? Pro style Luck is still .500 outside his division, yeah ?

Nothing new, we still have Manuel and Jones and it doesn't have anything to do with magic pills. Do your homework and get back to me when Hogan lights up the league never. People wanted a QB, we took one, get back to me when the other ones start dominating anything.

- - - Updated - - -


I took one of those pills once and ended up in a doctor's office after four hours.

Drink a quart of milk and have a slice of bread first, you can make it to 5 hrs.

[Arm of Harm]

Mace wrote:

> Since I can't remove Doug Whaley from his position, not owning the team and such, I'm as stuck with his choices as anyone.

Same here. The Bills haven't had a quarterback since Kelly. (Unless you count brief spurts, such as Flutie's stint with the team or Bledsoe's first eight games as a Bill.) Unless Tyrod is the long-term answer, Whaley is highly unlikely to be the one to solve that problem. Hopefully his eventual replacement will be better at QB talent evaluation than he is.

> and if he's so bad, why would you think it would matter who he took where, because he's not worth a crap with qb's anyway ?

My evidence for him being bad at evaluating QBs is the fact that his QB choices have followed a consistent pattern: great physical traits, not much in the way of demonstrated information processing speed or accuracy. If he were to begin selecting quarterbacks which don't fit that pattern, it would suggest that he's better at evaluating QB talent than I'd initially given him credit for. I would then become willing to reexamine my opinion of Whaley's ability to evaluate QB talent. But as long as he continues to act as I expect him to (by picking Cardale Jones-type quarterbacks), there is no reason for me to reexamine my opinion. On the contrary.

> So you think windup Hogan is better than misfiring Jones.

Yes. Absolutely. Odds are heavily against either quarterback amounting to much of anything in the NFL. But I'd rather have a 10% chance of something (Hogan) than a 0% chance (Jones).

> Good for you. Windup Tebow was a 66.4% passer in college yeah ?

I've never been optimistic about Tim Tebow's chances of success. When Denver drafted him, I thought, They just wasted a first round draft pick. Better them than us. If I felt that Hogan had Tebow's same limitations (in terms of limited accuracy and information processing speed) I wouldn't have suggested drafting Hogan either.

> Pro style Luck is still .500 outside his division, yeah ?

Andrew Luck seemed to come into his own in 2014, his third year in the league. His yards per attempt and QB rating were dramatically higher than they'd been his first two years. Both stats were comparable to what you'd expect from a guy like Tom Brady. But then, in his fourth year, he seemingly regressed. He played in only seven games, and his yards per attempt and passer rating were very underwhelming.

Maybe Andrew Luck was a one year wonder, with 2014 having been his one good year. It's also possible he'll have ten more seasons every bit as good as 2014 had been. This early in his career it's impossible to say which of those two possibilities is accurate.

> People wanted a QB, we took one, get back to me when the other ones start dominating anything.

There are times when you're better off taking no QB than you are taking the wrong one. The wrong QB fills the spot which could have gone to some other, more deserving prospect. For example: TD tried to trade up for Roethlisberger. But he decided Houston's asking price was too high. So he went with his plan B (Losman). The next year (2005), Aaron Rodgers was drafted by the Packers instead of the Bills. Why? Partially because we'd traded away our first round pick in 2005 to get Losman. TD didn't attempt to trade into the first round of 2005, because he thought he was "all set" at quarterback because of Losman. Losman, incidentally, was yet another quarterback with great physical tools, who'd never demonstrated much in the way of accuracy or information processing speed while in college. The Bills' organizational inability to evaluate QBs (and hence their preference for QBs of this type) predates Whaley's arrival by many years.

The same thing happened when the Bills took E.J. Manuel. Derek Carr is playing at a franchise level for Oakland. He was drafted a year after Manuel. Whaley felt the Bills were "all set" at quarterback because of Manuel--a thought which presumably played a key role in his decision not to draft Carr.

I want the Bills to be run by competent people. That means that a) the Bills should place far more emphasis on the QB position--the most important position in professional sports--than they do on RBs or DBs. b) Their evaluations of QBs should be a little more sophisticated than, "Ooh look! He has shiny physical tools! Let's draft him!" Both a) and b) are the absolute, bare minimum you'd expect from any competently run NFL franchise. Anything less than both those things is a strong indication of deep organizational flaws.

[pmoon6]

Horrendous pick and here's why

It has little to do with Cardale and a lot to do with Whaley.

Whaley loves to hang on to his picks even when they have shown to be a failure. (see Manuel EJ). If Taylor fails to progress and we find ourselves looking for a QB next season you can bet your asses Dougie won't be drafting one. Not in the next 2 (possibly 3) drafts as he tries to show us Cardale is the real deal. All those posters saying its ok because its only a 4th for a boom or bust guy fail to see the long term implications this is going to have on our drafting. Whaley will try to push Cardale down whoever is our coach's throat to the bloody end. If I knew Whaley was a man that admits his errors and corrects them ASAP I wouldn't be concerned about wasting a stupid comp. 4th. Just you watch. Whaley gonna Whaley

Now on to Jones. If Reggie Ragland or Aaron Williams walk into OBD tomorrow and toss a football 70 yards in the air they won't be far behind Cardale. That's how bad this kid is. He's a just a big dude with a big arm. This whole "upside" thing is bull****. He wasn't even a full time starter, not a team captain. He's not accurate, he can't read defenses. He's just a big arm. That's it. Sadly that is all that Whaley needs to get his rocks off. A big guy with a strong arm. **** all the other far more important things that make a QB like being able to read a defense, go through progressions or you know be accurate. If you can throw the ball hard you get Doug hard.

Whaley wouldn't know a QB if one fell on his lap.There was this QB once, he was drafted in the 3rd round. Nobody thought much of him and rode the pine for a year and three quarters until he played. He had time to learn the offense and adapt his skills to the pro game. His name was Joe Montana.

There are numerous other examples as well as examples of players that were thrown in the fire too early and never developed. In those cases we can never know if they were brought along slowly if they would have been more successful.

Just the idea of saying a raw player can't do it is ridiculous and shows the asinine attitude of the modern football fan. People that have never competed on the gridiron and wouldn't know a shoulder pad from a bedpan.

Cardale Jones may indeed not make it in the NFL, but it was a fourth round pick. Not lot of risk and the reward could be high because of his tools. (Looks durable and has a live arm). At the end of the day, crying about draft picks before they have a year or two in a system shows lack of understanding let alone before their first training camp.

Of course, the Fan's need to be correct and then brag about it on social media supercedes anything else.

[swiper]

Joe Montana was a QB.

Cardale Jones is an athlete trying to throw the ball.

Very distinct difference there.

[pmoon6]

Joe Montana was a QB.

Cardale Jones is an athlete trying to throw the ball.

Very distinct difference there.Maybe so. the point is it's too early to tell. Maybe Whaley plans to turn him into a TE.

[bdutton]

I hope that Tyrod gets hurt (not seriously) causing him to miss 1-2 games and EJ steps in and performs great and helps us to a couple of wins. Then trade him for a couple of draft picks later in the year and promote Cardale to backup.

[Dr. Lecter]

To call the last pick in the 4th round who has tremendous physical talent a "horrendous pick" is a lot of hyperbole. Any pick that late is going to be full of issues and isn't likely to be anything but potential depth player. And saying he only has a big arm really isn't true. He did have a 11-0 record as a starter. And while record in college is a way overvalued statistic, it also isn't totally meaningless.

[Victor7]

I hope that Tyrod gets hurt (not seriously) causing him to miss 1-2 games and EJ steps in and performs great and helps us to a couple of wins. Then trade him for a couple of draft picks later in the year and promote Cardale to backup.

What ?? ... you want our only decent QB to get hurt to then hope for a miracle (EJ playing well) so we can trade him for picks ??

Why not just hope for Taylor to not get hurt, be solid, get some wins and **** getting picks ??

Some fans are weird.

[Victor7]

Vic, he would have done the same with whatever QB they would have taken, and you have the off chance he's less married to a 4th round pick than a 1,2 or 3, and I still don't think any of the earlier ones are all that good either.

Have no issue agreeing that I'm not convinced Whaley has a clue about QBs.

If you're saying he shouldn't have taken one at all, I might waffle, because you might be right, if he HAD to take one it didn't matter (imho), may as well go for highest "possible" upside as late as possible or you wouldn't have gotten Lawson, Ragland and Washington. Now I'm not a big fan of Washington atm, but I'm all in on him if you give me the option of taking a qb there instead.

Not at all. I wanted us to take one. Just not that one. Jones is sooooooo bad dude. Soooooo bad. We took a guy with 11 career starts who wasn't a team captain and was benched. Some player huh ?


If he's that terrible, there are more maybe QB's next year for Whaley to probably be in charge of picking with his crapshoot eye. If you look at Ryan who also isn't going anywhere, he's not so sharp with QB's either.

Hope for the best and spare yourself the pain until something else happens at this point. No helping it.

IT won't matter how many QB come out next year. We won't take one. Guaran ****ing teed.

[Victor7]

There was this QB once, he was drafted in the 3rd round. Nobody thought much of him and rode the pine for a year and three quarters until he played. He had time to learn the offense and adapt his skills to the pro game. His name was Joe Montana.

There are numerous other examples as well as examples of players that were thrown in the fire too early and never developed. In those cases we can never know if they were brought along slowly if they would have been more successful.

Hey moon man good to hear from ya.

The fact that you had to go back almost 40 years for the Montana example speaks volumes. For every one of those there are 50 or more nobodies that never developed. The guy isn't even a QB for ****s sake. He just has a strong arm and a big body. That is all. What QB worth half a **** gets benched and isn't named team captain ??? .... I'm all for drafting a guy and hoping for the miracle. Its just that in this case it would be THE miracle of a lifetime. Jones' chances of succeeding are about as slim as hitting the lottery.


Question ? .... how many games did Montana start in college ? I honestly don't know but I bet my entire worth that it was more than 11.


Just the idea of saying a raw player can't do it is ridiculous and shows the asinine attitude of the modern football fan. People that have never competed on the gridiron and wouldn't know a shoulder pad from a bedpan.

Cardale Jones may indeed not make it in the NFL, but it was a fourth round pick. Not lot of risk and the reward could be high because of his tools. (Looks durable and has a live arm). At the end of the day, crying about draft picks before they have a year or two in a system shows lack of understanding let alone before their first training camp.

Of course, the Fan's need to be correct and then brag about it on social media supercedes anything else.

I don't care about the 4th rounder used on him. I knew people wouldn't read my post properly. I really don't care about that pick being "wasted".

This is about Whaley not picking another QB for at least 2 possibly 3 more years (if Taylor fails). He will hold on to dear life for Cardale to develop. That's my problem with this pick. It will keep us from getting another guy.

[sahlensguy]

This is about Whaley not picking another QB for at least 2 possibly 3 more years (if Taylor fails). He will hold on to dear life for Cardale to develop. That's my problem with this pick. It will keep us from getting another guy.

Considering it's Tyrod's contact year, it is make it or break it for him. If he wants to sign for more than Whaley thinks he is worth, there isn't a shot in hell Whaley will go into next year with Cardale add the #1 option. Not a shot in hell.

[Victor7]

Considering it's Tyrod's contact year, it is make it or break it for him. If he wants to sign for more than Whaley thinks he is worth, there isn't a shot in hell Whaley will go into next year with Cardale add the #1 option. Not a shot in hell.

I would love to believe that. But I just don't.

He was more than willing to do so with Manuel and Cassel last year. Taylor was all Rex.

[Arm of Harm]

Pmoon6 wrote:

> There was this QB once, he was drafted in the 3rd round. Nobody thought much of him and rode the pine for a year and three quarters until he played. He had time to learn the offense and adapt his skills to the pro game. His name was Joe Montana.

Back in the '70s, most offensive coordinators in the NFL sought to build the following type of offense: run the ball and throw deep passes. If the defense put seven men in the box, you ran the ball. If they put eight men in the box, you burned them with the deep pass. Offensive coordinators said, "use the run to set up the pass," by which they meant that their deep passing game would be more successful, once the running game had forced defenses to add an eighth man to the box.

In order for a QB to be successful in an offense like that, he needs a big time arm. An arm like Terry Bradshaw's arm. Joe Montana didn't have that type of arm. Even though he'd been a very accurate passer in college, he wasn't drafted until the third round, due to his lack of physical gifts.

Cardale Jones is the exact opposite of that. The only reason he was drafted is because of his great physical gifts. You give him physical tools that are decent but not spectacular--think Trent Edwards-type physical tools--and he would have gone undrafted.

[sahlensguy]

I would love to believe that. But I just don't.

He was more than willing to do so with Manuel and Cassel last year. Taylor was all Rex.

Su muy loco amigo.

There is a better chance that I get Rex Ryan tattooed on my ass, than there is of Jones being the #1 option next year.

Just how many snaps do you think he will get this year anyway?

[swiper]

Maybe so. the point is it's too early to tell. Maybe Whaley plans to turn him into a TE.

And he's going to sign you to play safety.

[swiper]

To call the last pick in the 4th round who has tremendous physical talent a "horrendous pick" is a lot of hyperbole. Any pick that late is going to be full of issues and isn't likely to be anything but potential depth player. And saying he only has a big arm really isn't true. He did have a 11-0 record as a starter. And while record in college is a way overvalued statistic, it also isn't totally meaningless.

It was a horrendous pick in the sense that the it was not an area of need (at that point given the talent left at that position) at that time as much as a DB or O-lineman was.

With that particular pick you have a much, much, much higher chance of taking a DB or OL that will contribute more so than this clown will.

[Victor7]

Su muy loco amigo.

There is a better chance that I get Rex Ryan tattooed on my ass, than there is of Jones being the #1 option next year.

Just how many snaps do you think he will get this year anyway?

I hope he gets zero. I hope he doesn't even make the roster.

But anyway. As long as Taylor stays healthy and performs this is all a moot point. But if for some reason the plan falters we will see Cardale. What's the point of playing EJ anymore ? .... The entire human population knows he sucks.

[Dr. Lecter]

I hope he gets zero. I hope he doesn't even make the roster.

But anyway. As long as Taylor stays healthy and performs this is all a moot point. But if for some reason the plan falters we will see Cardale. What's the point of playing EJ anymore ? .... The entire human population knows he sucks.

I'm sorry, but that's stupid.

You would rather be correct in your analysis than your favorite team find a productive player?

How absurd and arrogant.

[Arm of Harm]

Dr. Lecter [addressing Victor7] wrote:

> You would rather be correct in your analysis than your favorite team find a productive player?

I could be wrong, but I took Victor7's post to mean that he does want the Bills to find a productive player at QB. He wants that QB to be productive enough to take Cardale Jones' roster spot away from him. If you're 100% convinced Cardale was a wasted pick--as I am, and as I believe Victor7 to be--then the sooner the Bills find some other QB good enough to take Cardale's roster spot away from him, the sooner we'll move forward at the QB position.

Not that we've done much "moving forward" at the QB position ever since the day Kelly hung up his cleats.

[swiper]

I'm sorry, but that's stupid.

You would rather be correct in your analysis than your favorite team find a productive player?

How absurd and arrogant.

I believe that's what he projects is going to happen, based on the lack of success, being benched, etc that Jones had in the minor leagues (aka NCAA).

[Dr. Lecter]

Then say "I think" and not "I hope".

Two entirely different things.

[Jry44]

I believe that's what he projects is going to happen, based on the lack of success, being benched, etc that Jones had in the minor leagues (aka NCAA).

Lack of success? He stormed through the big 10 title, national semifinals, and national championship game. Sure it's a very small sample and it would be more accurate to say that it wasn't sustained, but to say he was unsuccessful is asinine.

I'm not a huge fan of Jones either. However, I don't think it's a big deal that he was drafted AS THE LAST PICK OF THE 4TH ROUND. You act as if he was a 2nd rounder! It's a very low risk, high reward pick. If he sucks, you cut him and lose nothing. He's nothing to get fired up over either way.

[gebobs]

I hope that Tyrod gets hurt (not seriously) causing him to miss 1-2 games and EJ steps in and performs great and helps us to a couple of wins. Then trade him for a couple of draft picks

...and then trade those picks to Edmonton for Taylor Hall.

[swiper]

Lack of success? He stormed through the big 10 title, national semifinals, and national championship game. Sure it's a very small sample and it would be more accurate to say that it wasn't sustained, but to say he was unsuccessful is asinine.

I'm not a huge fan of Jones either. However, I don't think it's a big deal that he was drafted AS THE LAST PICK OF THE 4TH ROUND. You act as if he was a 2nd rounder! It's a very low risk, high reward pick. If he sucks, you cut him and lose nothing. He's nothing to get fired up over either way.

If this guy hadn't played for Urban Meyer and the team he built, you would never had heard of him. Keep on with your biased attitude.

[Bill Cody]

To call the last pick in the 4th round who has tremendous physical talent a "horrendous pick" is a lot of hyperbole. Any pick that late is going to be full of issues and isn't likely to be anything but potential depth player. And saying he only has a big arm really isn't true. He did have a 11-0 record as a starter. And while record in college is a way overvalued statistic, it also isn't totally meaningless.

In this case I think it is. Jeff Tuel would have gone 10-1, 11-0 on OSU. EJ won all his bowl games. I would have rather had the potential depth player but that's just me. Somebody like this:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/christian-westerman?id=2555131

[SaviorEdwards]

In this case I think it is. Jeff Tuel would have gone 10-1, 11-0 on OSU. EJ won all his bowl games. I would have rather had the potential depth player but that's just me. Somebody like this:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/christian-westerman?id=2555131

He would have never made it on an Ohio State roster...there is a reason he played for Washington State.

[Bill Cody]

He would have never made it on an Ohio State roster...there is a reason he played for Washington State.

Maybe so. But my point was on a team with a dozen draft picks on it the team didn't need stellar QB play to win every week. Jones was a wasted pick.

[Jry44]

If this guy hadn't played for Urban Meyer and the team he built, you would never had heard of him. Keep on with your biased attitude.

I hate Ohio State and could care less about drafting Cardale Jones, yet I'm biased? How? I just think people like you are wasting your energy by being so damn upset over drafting a player so late in the bottom half of the draft.

[Night Train]

Maybe so. But my point was on a team with a dozen draft picks on it the team didn't need stellar QB play to win every week. Jones was a wasted pick.

The 42nd and last pick of Round 4 (pick #139)...is a wasted pick ?

I can understand that being said about the first 2-3 rounds. Bills have a history of blowing those picks.

Round 4-7 is ST help, backup depth at best. Taking a flyer a Jones will never kill us for years to come.

[swiper]

He would have never made it on an Ohio State roster...there is a reason he played for Washington State.

No. You've got this all wrong. Cardale Jones would have never been heard of had he not played for Urban Meyer. Je

[swiper]

The 42nd and last pick of Round 4 (pick #139)...is a wasted pick ?

I can understand that being said about the first 2-3 rounds. Bills have a history of blowing those picks.

Round 4-7 is ST help, backup depth at best. Taking a flyer a Jones will never kill us for years to come.

This is amongst the stupidest things ever posted.

Plenty of 1 to 3 round picks fail. In fact, most of them do. And the litany of star that came out of round 4 or later is longer than your two legs put together. So panning anything after the 3rd round as you try to do is just plain wrong. Stupidly wrong.

Must be what fans come to believe after 20 years of crappy GM work.

[Mace]

Mace wrote:

> Since I can't remove Doug Whaley from his position, not owning the team and such, I'm as stuck with his choices as anyone.

Same here. The Bills haven't had a quarterback since Kelly. (Unless you count brief spurts, such as Flutie's stint with the team or Bledsoe's first eight games as a Bill.) Unless Tyrod is the long-term answer, Whaley is highly unlikely to be the one to solve that problem. Hopefully his eventual replacement will be better at QB talent evaluation than he is.

> and if he's so bad, why would you think it would matter who he took where, because he's not worth a crap with qb's anyway ?

My evidence for him being bad at evaluating QBs is the fact that his QB choices have followed a consistent pattern: great physical traits, not much in the way of demonstrated information processing speed or accuracy. If he were to begin selecting quarterbacks which don't fit that pattern, it would suggest that he's better at evaluating QB talent than I'd initially given him credit for. I would then become willing to reexamine my opinion of Whaley's ability to evaluate QB talent. But as long as he continues to act as I expect him to (by picking Cardale Jones-type quarterbacks), there is no reason for me to reexamine my opinion. On the contrary.

> So you think windup Hogan is better than misfiring Jones.

Yes. Absolutely. Odds are heavily against either quarterback amounting to much of anything in the NFL. But I'd rather have a 10% chance of something (Hogan) than a 0% chance (Jones).

> Good for you. Windup Tebow was a 66.4% passer in college yeah ?

I've never been optimistic about Tim Tebow's chances of success. When Denver drafted him, I thought, They just wasted a first round draft pick. Better them than us. If I felt that Hogan had Tebow's same limitations (in terms of limited accuracy and information processing speed) I wouldn't have suggested drafting Hogan either.

> Pro style Luck is still .500 outside his division, yeah ?

Andrew Luck seemed to come into his own in 2014, his third year in the league. His yards per attempt and QB rating were dramatically higher than they'd been his first two years. Both stats were comparable to what you'd expect from a guy like Tom Brady. But then, in his fourth year, he seemingly regressed. He played in only seven games, and his yards per attempt and passer rating were very underwhelming.

Maybe Andrew Luck was a one year wonder, with 2014 having been his one good year. It's also possible he'll have ten more seasons every bit as good as 2014 had been. This early in his career it's impossible to say which of those two possibilities is accurate.

> People wanted a QB, we took one, get back to me when the other ones start dominating anything.

There are times when you're better off taking no QB than you are taking the wrong one. The wrong QB fills the spot which could have gone to some other, more deserving prospect. For example: TD tried to trade up for Roethlisberger. But he decided Houston's asking price was too high. So he went with his plan B (Losman). The next year (2005), Aaron Rodgers was drafted by the Packers instead of the Bills. Why? Partially because we'd traded away our first round pick in 2005 to get Losman. TD didn't attempt to trade into the first round of 2005, because he thought he was "all set" at quarterback because of Losman. Losman, incidentally, was yet another quarterback with great physical tools, who'd never demonstrated much in the way of accuracy or information processing speed while in college. The Bills' organizational inability to evaluate QBs (and hence their preference for QBs of this type) predates Whaley's arrival by many years.

The same thing happened when the Bills took E.J. Manuel. Derek Carr is playing at a franchise level for Oakland. He was drafted a year after Manuel. Whaley felt the Bills were "all set" at quarterback because of Manuel--a thought which presumably played a key role in his decision not to draft Carr.

I want the Bills to be run by competent people. That means that a) the Bills should place far more emphasis on the QB position--the most important position in professional sports--than they do on RBs or DBs. b) Their evaluations of QBs should be a little more sophisticated than, "Ooh look! He has shiny physical tools! Let's draft him!" Both a) and b) are the absolute, bare minimum you'd expect from any competently run NFL franchise. Anything less than both those things is a strong indication of deep organizational flaws.

tldr, chaos of text, and you have to do something about figuring out the quotes button. I mean this constructively.

Nothing to add with what I said previous. If Whaley is that bad at picking qb's, he's that bad at picking whatever qb's wherever, if you wanted a QB we got an unpolished one about where I'd figure to get an unpolished one with upside, there will be more next year anyway, and the qb class will get no better by wishing it was, while the team will get no better by blowing higher picks on weak reaches.

I did manage to read your last paragraph, and it's ridiculous that placing more emphasis on inadequate solutions will somehow make a solution more adequate. Taylor is the starter in a run based offense under Ryan/Roman. I can't help that and you have to deal with it too. That is their chosen emphasis and that's just how it is. You can complain about the machine as much as you want, I do too, but this is how it runs this year and I sure can't change it any.

[Mace]

Not at all. I wanted us to take one. Just not that one. Jones is sooooooo bad dude. Soooooo bad. We took a guy with 11 career starts who wasn't a team captain and was benched. Some player huh ?



IT won't matter how many QB come out next year. We won't take one. Guaran ****ing teed.

Maybe you're right hombre, but this wasn't a good QB class to fish through.

I still think Jones and scheme didn't fit, and Jones had a fine Championship run for a few games for being that terrible as you say. I'm not saying he's the savior, just that's he's a final 4th round pick with upside, and I didn't see anyone better there, or would want to sacrifice any earlier pick for guys that I also don't think are any good as opposed to who we took instead.

You know me Vic, if one of the other guys lights up the league I'll admit I was wrong. That's not saying, though I expect Jones to either. Far as I know we don't have our future guy until we get there. Might even be Taylor. I don't have a clue.

[SaviorEdwards]

No. You've got this all wrong. Cardale Jones would have never been heard of had he not played for Urban Meyer. Je


No that is wrong too...He was a Jim Tressel guy so he was lucky to get any playing time under Urban Meyer's system. I don't expect everyone to know who recruited who, but you should at least know the type of QB Cardale was he was no fit for Urban Meyer's offense. The reason he had so much success in those three huge games was the brilliance of Tom Herman.

[YardRat]

The 42nd and last pick of Round 4 (pick #139)...is a wasted pick ?

I can understand that being said about the first 2-3 rounds. Bills have a history of blowing those picks.

Round 4-7 is ST help, backup depth at best. Taking a flyer a Jones will never kill us for years to come.

Yeah, I disagree a little bit. Obviously the chances are third day draft picks will only turn out to be ST help and/or backup depth, but a team can't draft with that mindset without settling for mediocrity. Teams should always be looking to grab guys who they feel can contribute at a high level at some point, even in the 4th-7th rounds. I'd much prefer the Bills take a chance on guys that could be the next Richard Sherman, Cam Chancellor, Greg Hardy, Antonio Brown, Andre Reed etc.

[Mace]

Yeah, I disagree a little bit. Obviously the chances are third day draft picks will only turn out to be ST help and/or backup depth, but a team can't draft with that mindset without settling for mediocrity. Teams should always be looking to grab guys who they feel can contribute at a high level at some point, even in the 4th-7th rounds. I'd much prefer the Bills take a chance on guys that could be the next Richard Sherman, Cam Chancellor, Greg Hardy, Antonio Brown, Andre Reed etc.

This was a very deep draft this year. Maybe Jones works. I always wonder about a healthy Daunte Culpepper, or a Steve McNair with better teams. I don't really think this is going to happen but it's better than wondering about the next windup correction or spread guy who can't make pro reads. Or maybe it's not better. But we HAD to take a qb and we took one.

[Victor7]

I'm sorry, but that's stupid.

You would rather be correct in your analysis than your favorite team find a productive player?

How absurd and arrogant.


Neither


I would love for us to find a productive player. Cardale Jones ins't one. I would bet anything on it.

[Victor7]

If this guy hadn't played for Urban Meyer and the team he built, you would never had heard of him. Keep on with your biased attitude.

yup

OSU was 10-1 and averaging around 40-45 points a game when Cardale was called into play. So them winning with the 3rd string QB is for sure not a medal for Cardale. It actually speaks volumes of the team that Meyer had assembled that they could win with just about anyone at the helm.